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Subject: "Beyonce's greatness an "assumption"?" Previous topic | Next topic
LowOnMyPaper
Member since Jan 04th 2008
162 posts
Thu Oct-20-11 01:53 PM

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"Beyonce's greatness an "assumption"?"


  

          

Jay Caspian Kang on Beyonce, in an article about The X Factor:

"How cynical and lazy we have become! How complacent! We have lionized a bland corporate beauty who, even when she's trying (and she tries), cannot make you feel a thing about anything. Why has Beyoncé's greatness become an assumption? A ubiquitous assumption, at that? Why, when Barack needed someone to sing at his inauguration, did he default to an artist who, in 50 years, when the Ant Overlords dissect our "culture," will be dismissed as an example of how to effectively market blandness, perfect hair, and enticing thighs to the masses? Why have we just accepted Beyoncé as something good, something to be admired, something worth celebrating? Has she ever made anyone cry? Does she raise goose bumps? Or do we just appreciate her, the same way we appreciate the terra cotta soldiers or El Greco? Yes, it's impressive one person can do that, but when all is said and done, all you have is a bunch of pretty shit jammed together in one space. Over the past 10 years, I have had dozens of conversations about the Queen B with people who are much smarter than me. I have yet to meet anyone who has any strong opinion about her. Sure, a lot of people say they love Beyoncé but only out of a sense of duty, almost as if admitting to not liking Beyoncé would cast them as soulless neophytes who, by extension, also hate Barack Obama, Aretha Franklin, Ma Rainey, and Muhammad Ali.

I don't buy into any of that. I refuse to accept Sasha Fierce. I watch singing competitions because I believe that life can be better than Beyoncé."

Thoughts? Has Beyonce ever moved you with her music?

--L--

  

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Topic Outline
Subject Author Message Date ID
I generally agree with his opinions
Oct 20th 2011
1
lank
Oct 20th 2011
2
Beyonce got all the goods but the Songs and that Soul
Oct 20th 2011
3
Well said. n/m
Oct 20th 2011
5
RE: Beyonce got all the goods but the Songs and that Soul
Oct 20th 2011
22
RE: Beyonce's greatness an "assumption"?
Oct 20th 2011
4
What does THIS have to do w/anything?
Oct 20th 2011
9
prince
Oct 20th 2011
10
she appeared w/P at the Grammys in 2004.
Oct 20th 2011
11
Prince certified Sheena Easton, you're gonna have to do better than this
Oct 20th 2011
15
most of the women that prince "certified" was exceptionally fine...
Oct 20th 2011
20
he also thought people in the new power generation could rap...
Oct 20th 2011
16
naw. her 'greatness' is not about Prince at all.
Oct 20th 2011
21
her and Prince on the grammys was a Power lunch 101 in hollywood
Oct 20th 2011
29
her 'greatness' is usually based on her work ethic.
Oct 20th 2011
6
Has Beyonce ever moved you with her music
Oct 20th 2011
7
Not that anyone is moved by gaga, but
Oct 20th 2011
28
RE: Beyonce's greatness an "assumption"?
Oct 20th 2011
8
RE: Beyonce's greatness an "assumption"?
Oct 20th 2011
12
      RE: Beyonce's greatness an "assumption"?
Oct 20th 2011
23
she can't emote.
Oct 20th 2011
13
if not her...who?
Oct 20th 2011
14
^ see?
Oct 20th 2011
17
Agreed, there has to be someone, and only 1
Oct 20th 2011
18
      smh
Oct 20th 2011
19
      let me help you.
Oct 20th 2011
25
Hmmm
Oct 20th 2011
24
      RE: Hmmm
Oct 20th 2011
27
"Love on top" might be one of the only, maybe the first song from her
Oct 20th 2011
26
ppl have collectively willed her to greatness
Oct 21st 2011
30
Is Diana Ross Great?
Oct 21st 2011
31
yes, because diana ross has at least 2 CD's worth of brilliant songs.
Oct 21st 2011
32
yes
Oct 21st 2011
33
      aaaaaand she did all that with like 3 kids
Oct 24th 2011
69
She is 20times better than Janet could ever dream to be
Oct 21st 2011
34
cot damn you're wrong.
Oct 21st 2011
35
      You're obviously not a 12-32 Y.O. woman
Oct 21st 2011
36
      actually, let me edit the second part of this for clarity...
Oct 21st 2011
37
           you already come into the battle that Janet music is better
Oct 21st 2011
39
           No one sincerely loves Bs output.
Oct 21st 2011
40
           RE: No one sincerely loves Bs output.
Oct 21st 2011
41
                I don't think they do.
Oct 21st 2011
42
                     You just defined Pop Icon
Oct 21st 2011
43
                          I was responding to the point about the music output, though.
Oct 21st 2011
46
                               exactly.
Oct 21st 2011
49
                                    which is more of an indictment of Pop Music
Oct 21st 2011
51
                                         I've got 0 problems with kids liking her.
Oct 21st 2011
54
                                              Because the pop music landscape is so awful
Oct 21st 2011
57
                                                   so why can't we just say this: "nobody is really great right now."
Oct 21st 2011
58
                                                        Metrics
Oct 21st 2011
59
                                                             even if that respect, she's not seeing MJ or the beatles.
Oct 21st 2011
61
           RE: you already come into the battle that Janet music is better
Oct 21st 2011
47
           B is a quantity over quality artist.
Oct 21st 2011
44
      Diane had a beautiful, subtle tone.
Oct 21st 2011
38
           i agree. i only said she "arguablly" couldn't sing
Oct 21st 2011
45
                Diane couldn't SANG
Oct 21st 2011
48
There aren't valid arguments for anyone else.
Oct 21st 2011
50
why does it have to be about anyone else?
Oct 21st 2011
52
      It doesn't.
Oct 21st 2011
53
           lol see #6.
Oct 21st 2011
55
                Ha! So we agree.
Oct 21st 2011
62
                     LOL
Oct 21st 2011
63
History abhors a diva vacuum
Oct 21st 2011
56
being the best in a wack era does not equal greatness
Oct 21st 2011
60
Technically, all levels of "greatness" are assumptions aren't they? n/m
Oct 21st 2011
64
Beyonce vs Jay-Z
Oct 24th 2011
65
a few critical differences.
Oct 24th 2011
66
      niggas in the barbershop
Oct 24th 2011
67
           like i said...
Oct 24th 2011
68

dalecooper
Member since Apr 07th 2006
3164 posts
Thu Oct-20-11 01:56 PM

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1. "I generally agree with his opinions"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

though not with the foaming rage it appears to put him into. Yeah, she's kind of a bland entertainment-bot. But she is in fact talented in multiple ways, and easy on the eyes; being all of that at once isn't a small thing. I don't think of her as "great" per se, but she's one of the better ones currently making dance/pop music; could be a lot worse.

--

  

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LowOnMyPaper
Member since Jan 04th 2008
162 posts
Thu Oct-20-11 01:56 PM

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2. "lank"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/7121901/defense-tv-singing-competitions

--L--

  

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mistermaxxx08
Member since Dec 31st 2010
16076 posts
Thu Oct-20-11 02:15 PM

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3. "Beyonce got all the goods but the Songs and that Soul"
In response to Reply # 0


          

she has all of the required "IT" but no Money tracks, "Crazy in love" is her best song IMO and yet still not the best she could ever do or be. she tends to leave me cold.

i want to buy her music and Champion her because i know what she has as far as talent and charisma and Persona and yet i feel ice cold from alot of her robotic by the numbers music.

she bores me and nothing ever gets to the next level and she is a few years away from being 20 years in the game and still lacking any real depth despite the Hype being way up there.

she ain't Great, but her PR team will have you thinking she has matched Diana Ross, Whitney Houston and Aretha Franklin.

in truth at this rate i gotta wonder if Beyonce will even get to Mariah Carey's level and for the record MC is very run of the mill. voice was something else, but alot of her material is slightly a cut above what Rhianna does at best IMO. but at least Mariah had a vision of Love to fall back on and a pretty good cover of "Ill be there. Beyonce ain't seeing neither of those quite yet.

mistermaxxx R.Kelly, Michael Jackson,Stevie wonder,Rick James,Marvin Gaye,El Debarge, Barry WHite Lionel RIchie,Isleys EWF,Lady T.,Kid creole and coconuts,the crusaders,kc sunshine band,bee gees,jW,sd,NE,JB

Miami Heat, New York Yankees,buffalo bills

  

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CaptNish
Member since Mar 09th 2004
14384 posts
Thu Oct-20-11 02:24 PM

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5. "Well said. n/m"
In response to Reply # 3


  

          

/

_
http://www.twitter.com/natethreepoint0
http://www.BFFsOMGLOL.com
http://natethreepoint0.tumblr.com
http://soundcloud.com/nate-3-0
http://wickedawesomebookcovers.tumblr.com

  

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tapedeck
Member since Dec 27th 2004
6775 posts
Thu Oct-20-11 03:59 PM

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22. "RE: Beyonce got all the goods but the Songs and that Soul"
In response to Reply # 3


  

          

Yeah she got the IT but the wrong music. She needs some big name producers to work with.

Check out NEW Soul music at: www.myspace.com/starbeing

Bumpin in the STEREO:
Peabo Bryson-RFTS
Jill Scott- TLOTS
Full Force-GB1T!
Kelly Rowland-Simply Deep
TFE-Leave It All Behind
Black Ivory-Feel It

  

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all stah
Member since Sep 03rd 2005
23470 posts
Thu Oct-20-11 02:17 PM

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4. "RE: Beyonce's greatness an "assumption"?"
In response to Reply # 0


          

she rocked with prince, and prince certified her


period.

  

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briwil25
Member since Apr 14th 2003
12780 posts
Thu Oct-20-11 02:53 PM

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9. "What does THIS have to do w/anything?"
In response to Reply # 4


          

>she rocked with prince, and prince certified her
>
>
>period.

  

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howisya
Member since Nov 09th 2002
39870 posts
Thu Oct-20-11 02:56 PM

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10. "prince"
In response to Reply # 9
Thu Oct-20-11 02:58 PM by howisya

  

          

eh i don't trust his judgment either

  

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SoWhat
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154163 posts
Thu Oct-20-11 03:03 PM

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11. "she appeared w/P at the Grammys in 2004."
In response to Reply # 9


  

          

right when she was in the process of being crowned Queen B. they gave her 5 awards that night, i think.

fuck you.

  

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Bombastic
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Thu Oct-20-11 03:42 PM

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15. "Prince certified Sheena Easton, you're gonna have to do better than this"
In response to Reply # 4


  

          

>she rocked with prince, and prince certified her
>
>
>period.

www.somethinginthewudder.com

https://twitter.com/nostrabombus

https://www.facebook.com/matt.koelling.96

https://www.instagram.com/something_in_the_wudder/

https://www.linkedin.com/in/matt-koelling-438a803?trk=hp-identity-name

  

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Joe Corn Mo
Member since Aug 29th 2010
15139 posts
Thu Oct-20-11 03:53 PM

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20. "most of the women that prince "certified" was exceptionally fine..."
In response to Reply # 15


  

          

coincidence?

i think not lol

  

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Joe Corn Mo
Member since Aug 29th 2010
15139 posts
Thu Oct-20-11 03:44 PM

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16. "he also thought people in the new power generation could rap..."
In response to Reply # 4


  

          

>she rocked with prince, and prince certified her
>
>
>period.




prince doesn't always have the best eye for talent...

  

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SoWhat
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Thu Oct-20-11 03:55 PM

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21. "naw. her 'greatness' is not about Prince at all."
In response to Reply # 4


  

          

fuck you.

  

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mistermaxxx08
Member since Dec 31st 2010
16076 posts
Thu Oct-20-11 11:31 PM

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29. "her and Prince on the grammys was a Power lunch 101 in hollywood"
In response to Reply # 4


          

IMO.

he was insecure and why i don't know? because he was going to the rock and roll hall of fame 1)

purple rain was turning 20 years old 2)

he was touring 3)

and he was signed to sony music that was putting out a video and the machine was at work 4)

he tried to get his Ike turner to her Tina turner on with that performance.

it was very contrived and it truly it didn't do anything for either party except they got on stage together and performed his classic songs,etc..


and Prince also certified Carman Electria, Vanity, Apollonia, Mayte, Bria and all there albums except for the Vanity 6 album went cracker jack prize.

if you are a chick you want to avoid the Purple Voodoo Kool Aid because bro Man ain't good to your career just ask Rosie Gaines or Tamar??

Prince wanted to get something on Beyonce's albums until her daddy and her said give up co writing and co producing credits so a happy medium of performing at the grammys was a truce for Juice.

mistermaxxx R.Kelly, Michael Jackson,Stevie wonder,Rick James,Marvin Gaye,El Debarge, Barry WHite Lionel RIchie,Isleys EWF,Lady T.,Kid creole and coconuts,the crusaders,kc sunshine band,bee gees,jW,sd,NE,JB

Miami Heat, New York Yankees,buffalo bills

  

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SoWhat
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Thu Oct-20-11 02:25 PM

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6. "her 'greatness' is usually based on her work ethic."
In response to Reply # 0
Thu Oct-20-11 02:35 PM by SoWhat

  

          

she clearly tries real hard and seems to take her act seriously.

and she sings well.

and then ppl ask you to name a greater current act, assuming you can't. and if you do they'll point out that whoever you named hasn't been in the biz for as long. or hasn't crossed over like B has. or is somewhere below B on the list of who's dominating right now. it's like she's 'great' by default b/c there's no greater act around right now.

...that seems to be enough for many/most who call her great. it's never about how much her music moves anyone.

fuck you.

  

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bentagain
Member since Mar 19th 2008
14434 posts
Thu Oct-20-11 02:31 PM

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7. "Has Beyonce ever moved you with her music"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Yes

I caught her live show, and after about 30 minutes of hit after hit after hit...

I was truly moved

Like DAAYYYUUUMMM

I don't get B hate

are you that moved by Gaga?


---------------------------------------------------------------

If you can't understand it without an explanation

you can't understand it with an explanation

  

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LowOnMyPaper
Member since Jan 04th 2008
162 posts
Thu Oct-20-11 07:39 PM

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28. "Not that anyone is moved by gaga, but"
In response to Reply # 7


  

          

that live show is the exception, and THATS peoples beef with her. She has that ability to be as powerful as you mentioned, and so many times she just isn't.

--L--

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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Thu Oct-20-11 02:50 PM

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8. "RE: Beyonce's greatness an "assumption"?"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

http://youtu.be/dg7XmGbw0TY

Is this writer German or something?

Because Lord knows you are not allowed to speak this kind of truth about King B in America...

_____________________

http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2010/287/6/c/the_wire_lineup__huge_download_by_dennisculver-d30s7vl.jpg
The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

  

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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
62721 posts
Thu Oct-20-11 03:07 PM

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12. "RE: Beyonce's greatness an "assumption"?"
In response to Reply # 8
Thu Oct-20-11 03:08 PM by legsdiamond

          

I agree with everything the writer says...

Me, Myself and I is a great song and so is Crazy In Love but there is something missing when I watch Beyawnce...

She tries too hard, I like the thighs and the crotch shots but she comes off like a child who is still trying to win a talent competition.

If she would sit the fuck down for a few years I think the masses would "miss" her or respond to her next project with some real emotion.

It almost feels like she isn't really pregnant and just made it up to stay in the news because the album was butt juice.

I really think being "coached" from the age of 3 has damaged her realness. Everything feels coached...



  

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CMcMurtry
Member since Nov 28th 2002
17053 posts
Thu Oct-20-11 04:02 PM

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23. "RE: Beyonce's greatness an "assumption"?"
In response to Reply # 12


  

          

>It almost feels like she isn't really pregnant and just made
>it up to stay in the news because the album was butt juice.

You clearly don't read MediaTakeout lol. I'd say every day, they have something on there related to the conspiracy theory that she isn't really knocked up.

___________________________
OL' DIRTY BASTARD on himself:
"I may curse, I may have a bad mouth, whatever whatever. I'm not that bad, yaknow'mean. Bad to y'all, I dunno how y'all... I don't give a fuck. Um, I'm a good person at heart, for real and shit.

  

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Joe Corn Mo
Member since Aug 29th 2010
15139 posts
Thu Oct-20-11 03:33 PM

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13. "she can't emote."
In response to Reply # 0
Thu Oct-20-11 03:34 PM by Joe Corn Mo

  

          

i never believe a word that's coming out of her mouth.

people try to say she's the heir to aretha b/c of her voice,
but i don't feel the soul.

people try to say she's the heir to janet because of the pop,
but i've never felt any kind of presence coming off of her records.
(which is a shame, because we all know janet can't sing,
but janet had great songs and had a soul-ish type of voice.
enough to move me)

people try to say she's the heir to michael jackson
which isn't even worth discussing.




she's a great techincal singer,
and maybe the right producer could pull some great vocal performances
out of her.

but i've never been moved by a beyonce record,
and it's not because i 'only like old music.'



hell... britney freaking spears made me believe it
when she "sang" i'm a slave for you.



i'm happy for her success, i suppose.

but no, she isn't great.

  

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k_orr
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Thu Oct-20-11 03:41 PM

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14. "if not her...who?"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

  

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SoWhat
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Thu Oct-20-11 03:45 PM

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17. "^ see?"
In response to Reply # 14


  

          

LOL

as if there just _has_ to be someone. or as if there can only be one at a time.

the question isn't is B the greatest/best of the moment. it's is she one of the greats? is she great?

fuck you.

  

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k_orr
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Thu Oct-20-11 03:48 PM

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18. "Agreed, there has to be someone, and only 1"
In response to Reply # 17


  

          

>LOL
>
>as if there just _has_ to be someone. or as if there can only
>be one at a time.
>
>the question isn't is B the greatest/best of the moment. it's
>is she one of the greats? is she great?

If she's the best at the moment, she has to be one of the greats!

It's not like we can go 20 years w/o a Mary J replacement.

so it's established, Beyonce, the great songstress for our time, but of all time.

  

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SoWhat
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Thu Oct-20-11 03:51 PM

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19. "smh"
In response to Reply # 18


  

          

LOL

fuck you.

  

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Joe Corn Mo
Member since Aug 29th 2010
15139 posts
Thu Oct-20-11 04:08 PM

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25. "let me help you."
In response to Reply # 18


  

          

>If she's the best at the moment, she has to be one of the
>greats!
>


the beatles are great.
jimi hendrix is great.
marvin gaye is great.


beyonce does not belong in that conversation.

i mean, when you see something like michael jackson
on motown 25... that's the standard for greatness.

you see something like that, and you know... not think,
but know... that anything that is below this standard,
is LESS than greatness.



again... hendrix at the moneraux pop festival?
greatness.

the beatles revolver album?
greatness.



please tell me what beyonce has done
that even approaches this standard for "greatness."




i'll wait (c) katt williams






>It's not like we can go 20 years w/o a Mary J replacement.
>
>so it's established, Beyonce, the great songstress for our
>time, but of all time.

  

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Jakob Hellberg
Member since Apr 18th 2005
9762 posts
Thu Oct-20-11 04:07 PM

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24. "Hmmm"
In response to Reply # 14
Thu Oct-20-11 04:09 PM by Jakob Hellberg

          

EvERY era has had its greats and stars regardless of my personal opinion. You can look at the 40's to 90's and name the greats in various musical categories and they are all legends and fondly remembered. Objectively, I guess Beyonce would be one of the names in the past decade so in that sense, I guess she is one. However, and maybe I'm just old but I'm not sure, I just don't see the greats from the past decade standing up to the previous ones. We'll see what the consensus will be 10-20 years from now but I doubt the 00's will carry much weight musically for a variety of reasons. Or I'm just out of touch and people have always said things like this and blah-blah, still not sure because I do think music has become devalued as an entertainment form and the quality of the greats mirror that...

  

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Joe Corn Mo
Member since Aug 29th 2010
15139 posts
Thu Oct-20-11 04:12 PM

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27. "RE: Hmmm"
In response to Reply # 24


  

          

>maybe I'm just old but I'm
>not sure, I just don't see the greats from the past decade
>standing up to the previous ones. We'll see what the consensus
>will be 10-20 years from now but I doubt the 00's will carry
>much weight musically for a variety of reasons. Or I'm just
>out of touch...




nope. you are right on.
most of it doesn't hold up, and that's not just "old man in the room" talk.


when MJ was doing his thing, even the old heads said,
"yep. he's the real deal."


same thing goes for prince. and even madonna, in a way.
beyonce? no.



are there any musicians doing material
that can be held to the standards of greats of a previous era?


maybe kanye with his latest... i said before,
it's a minor classic. it's about as good as fleetwood mac's
"rumors."



so i know i'm not just an old man that's out of touch.
i know greatness when i see it.


beyonce ain't it.








  

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-DJ R-Tistic-
Member since Nov 06th 2008
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26. ""Love on top" might be one of the only, maybe the first song from her"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

that I really think is like great...and to many folks, even that song is arguable because it sounds so cheesy and throwback. But the arrangement...her vocals, the changes in the verse, the way it builds up, the lyrics, the energy, the happy ass vibe, the key changes, little shit like the falsetto in "dance the night, awaaaaaaaay"....and then the covers it inspired such as Chloe and Halle's....yeah, that shit is the first time I've ever listened to a Beyonce song repeatedly by choice.

But aside from that....I think the writer does go a bit too hard on her, but makes good points. Most of her music is very bland, and is just good enough to appeal to her Lemming ass fanbase.

------------------------------

50+ FREE Mixes on www.DJR-Tistic.com!

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Reuben
Member since Mar 13th 2006
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Fri Oct-21-11 12:49 AM

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30. "ppl have collectively willed her to greatness"
In response to Reply # 0
Fri Oct-21-11 01:01 AM by Reuben

  

          

she's an icon so they've willed her music to iconic status

the music on its own ain't shit


but thats the times we live in,

_______________________________________
When discourse of Blackness is not connected to efforts to promote collective black self determinism
it becomes simply another recourse appropriated by the colonizer

http://hardboiledbabesanddarkchocolate.tumblr.co

  

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bentagain
Member since Mar 19th 2008
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Fri Oct-21-11 07:28 AM

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31. "Is Diana Ross Great?"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

---------------------------------------------------------------

If you can't understand it without an explanation

you can't understand it with an explanation

  

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Joe Corn Mo
Member since Aug 29th 2010
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Fri Oct-21-11 08:07 AM

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32. "yes, because diana ross has at least 2 CD's worth of brilliant songs."
In response to Reply # 31
Fri Oct-21-11 08:08 AM by Joe Corn Mo

  

          

nm

  

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mistermaxxx08
Member since Dec 31st 2010
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33. "yes"
In response to Reply # 31


          

Supremes classic 1)

solo career classics 2)

all around entertainer 3)


and the irony she never got hardly any jewlery like compared to all the industry jewlery beyonce has gotten at various award shows.

the music, live show alone tells how badd the boss ms ross truly is.

mistermaxxx R.Kelly, Michael Jackson,Stevie wonder,Rick James,Marvin Gaye,El Debarge, Barry WHite Lionel RIchie,Isleys EWF,Lady T.,Kid creole and coconuts,the crusaders,kc sunshine band,bee gees,jW,sd,NE,JB

Miami Heat, New York Yankees,buffalo bills

  

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FromTheGo
Member since Feb 04th 2003
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Mon Oct-24-11 02:25 PM

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69. "aaaaaand she did all that with like 3 kids"
In response to Reply # 33


  

          

she was the original DIVA


Yonce not touching her

  

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OriginalNaijaNigga
Member since Aug 23rd 2011
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Fri Oct-21-11 09:11 AM

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34. "She is 20times better than Janet could ever dream to be"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

And we have allowed Janet to become an icon based on her production team because it ain't Janet's voice or performing ability because lets be real Janet ain't a great dancer and singing it is laughablee. Beyonce live show is still in tradition in an era where some people thinking background singing is having their voice as a playover and basically have live tracks over album cuts. She is an icon when people made Janet an icon, and Janet isn't half the talent Beyonce is and didn't put in half the work.

Wanna hit it from the back, she agreed that im looney,but proceed to moon me, IM GETTIN MONEY NIGGA (c) King Jaffe Joffer

  

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Joe Corn Mo
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Fri Oct-21-11 09:32 AM

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35. "cot damn you're wrong."
In response to Reply # 34


  

          

>And we have allowed Janet to become an icon based on her
>production team


that production team was responsbile for some
amazing songs.


please, name one beyonce song that is better than

"pleasure principal"

or "let's wait a while."

or "lonely."

or "any time, any place."



and i could go on and on. janet has an undeniable
catalogue. filled with classic songs from the r&b cannon.

please, name 3 classic beyonce tracks.
not GOOD tracks.


classic.






>because it ain't Janet's voice or performing
>ability


janet jackson can't sing.
so what? neither can diana ross, arguablly.

but guess what? diana has classic songs with the supremes,
and classic songs as a solo artist, so diana ross
is a classic artist.

just like janet.



>because lets be real Janet ain't a great dancer

perhaps you missed the scream video.
she was dancing next to MJ and she didn't embarras herself AT ALL.
in fact, she did pretty damn good.

have you ever seen clips of other people trying to dance next
to MJ? it usually gets embarrasing for them.

lol at "janet ain't a great dancer."




and lmfao at beyonce's attempts at "dancing."




>Beyonce live show is still in
>tradition in an era where some people thinking background
>singing is having their voice as a playover and basically have
>live tracks over album cuts. She is an icon when people made
>Janet an icon, and Janet isn't half the talent Beyonce is and
>didn't put in half the work.






name 3 beyonce songs that move you.

beyonce is talented, but she has no soul.
janet has a limited ass voice, but she speaks to people.

beyonce can't do that (for whatever reason).


lol at the thought
of this weak ass post...

  

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bentagain
Member since Mar 19th 2008
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Fri Oct-21-11 09:54 AM

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36. "You're obviously not a 12-32 Y.O. woman"
In response to Reply # 35


  

          

because I think they would disagree with alot of the statements you're making

you think young ladies weren't moved or touched by B's catalogue?

i feel bitterness and hate directed toward B, yet you're calling Janet Jackson soulful...?


---------------------------------------------------------------

If you can't understand it without an explanation

you can't understand it with an explanation

  

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Joe Corn Mo
Member since Aug 29th 2010
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Fri Oct-21-11 10:17 AM

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37. "actually, let me edit the second part of this for clarity..."
In response to Reply # 36
Fri Oct-21-11 10:33 AM by Joe Corn Mo

  

          

>because I think they would disagree with alot of the
>statements you're making
>
>you think young ladies weren't moved or touched by B's
>catalogue?



i think that the women in that demographic you mentioned
love "single ladies."

everybody digs "crazy in love."

everything else beyonce did was released and
forgotten about, from what i can tell.

not to say that she doesn't have ANY other good songs,
but for the most part i think the women in that demographic
love beyonce but are relatively indifferent ot her songs.



people "connect" more to lady gaga.
nobody really relates to beyonce.




>
>i feel bitterness and hate directed toward B, yet you're
>calling Janet Jackson soulful...?



beyonce can sing.
but janet can emote.

which is really what the essence of "soul" is...
so no, janet isn't a great or even necessarily a good singer,
but she emotes well.

so songs like "let's wait a while," then "someday is tonight,"
then "any time, any place," resonate better than
any beyonce song you can name.



i don't think anybody believes a word that comes out of beyonce's
mouth.

  

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OriginalNaijaNigga
Member since Aug 23rd 2011
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Fri Oct-21-11 10:37 AM

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39. "you already come into the battle that Janet music is better"
In response to Reply # 37


  

          

but that is all hype bullshit because Janet has no soul in her music especially singing over those metal drums that Jam and Lewis created. Again if i listed any Beyonce song you will scream not a classic and what dancing did she do in Scream that was so awe inspiring and only person who would get embrassed dancing with Michael is niggas like Usher and Prince aint no real dancer will be embrassed by Michael i luv Mike Jack.

The point is once Janet was called an icon then why is it hard for Beyonce to be named one since she is far superior to Janet in lmost every way

Wanna hit it from the back, she agreed that im looney,but proceed to moon me, IM GETTIN MONEY NIGGA (c) King Jaffe Joffer

  

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Teknontheou
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Fri Oct-21-11 10:43 AM

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40. "No one sincerely loves Bs output."
In response to Reply # 39
Fri Oct-21-11 10:44 AM by Teknontheou

  

          

People get excited when Janets golden era stuff gets played on the radio, or in the grown and sexy spot.

  

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bentagain
Member since Mar 19th 2008
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Fri Oct-21-11 10:44 AM

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41. "RE: No one sincerely loves Bs output."
In response to Reply # 40


  

          

12-32 Y.O. woman

---------------------------------------------------------------

If you can't understand it without an explanation

you can't understand it with an explanation

  

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Teknontheou
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42. "I don't think they do."
In response to Reply # 41
Fri Oct-21-11 10:51 AM by Teknontheou

  

          

They seem to like what she represents: the Sasha Fierce, diva thing, and they want to identify with that. But I don't think they're in love with those songs. They probably wouldn't care to hear someone else cover hardly any of Bs songs. But many people would love to hear quality covers of Janets stuff, because the songs themselves are that good.

  

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bentagain
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43. "You just defined Pop Icon"
In response to Reply # 42


  

          

"They seem to like what she represents: the Sasha Fierce, diva thing, and they want to identify with that."

---------------------------------------------------------------

If you can't understand it without an explanation

you can't understand it with an explanation

  

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Teknontheou
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46. "I was responding to the point about the music output, though."
In response to Reply # 43


  

          

She's absolutely an icon. That's what folks are saying. We collectively decided to regard her as an icon, even though no one loves the tunes.

  

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Joe Corn Mo
Member since Aug 29th 2010
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Fri Oct-21-11 11:06 AM

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49. "exactly."
In response to Reply # 46


  

          

>We
>collectively decided to regard her as an icon, even though no
>one loves the tunes.



folks love her role as a diva,
but don't nobody give a fuck about those songs.
(with the exception of "single ladies" and
maybe "crazy in love")




  

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bentagain
Member since Mar 19th 2008
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Fri Oct-21-11 11:32 AM

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51. "which is more of an indictment of Pop Music"
In response to Reply # 49
Fri Oct-21-11 11:37 AM by bentagain

  

          

is there an Artist over the last 15 years that we overlooked, or consistently had better songs?

are you mad at BEP for not being RUN DMC

are you mad at Usher for not being Marvin

you're old and don't like Pop Music, welcome to the club

if you were 13 years old you'd have a poster of B in your room and pretend to only listen to her music because your girlfriend likes it

was Madonna some vocal phenom, with incredible song structures?



---------------------------------------------------------------

If you can't understand it without an explanation

you can't understand it with an explanation

  

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Joe Corn Mo
Member since Aug 29th 2010
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Fri Oct-21-11 12:10 PM

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54. "I've got 0 problems with kids liking her. "
In response to Reply # 51


  

          



I have a problem with critics, who should know better,
trying to tell me that she's this generations version of Aretha.
Or worse yet, MJ.

Some thrones were left vacant, and there is no
current sucessor. We don't have "another MJ" right now.
And that's fine.

But don't tell me Beyonce is it.




>is there an Artist over the last 15 years that we overlooked,
>or consistently had better songs?
>


Why does this matter?
are you saying she wins by default? Because the pop
music landscape is so awful? Sure, I guess.

But that's not how Aretha or MJ or even Mariah got their
status. They really were just that damn good.



>are you mad at BEP for not being RUN DMC
>
>are you mad at Usher for not being Marvin
>

only when people try to compare these artists to legends like MJ.
I actually enjoy these people's songs.


>you're old and don't like Pop Music, welcome to the club



Kanye's latest is on of my favorite albums.
Not favorite rap albums.... favorite albums period.
So I don't hate all new music. Hell, I dig lady gaga.
>
>if you were 13 years old you'd have a poster of B in your room
>and pretend to only listen to her music because your
>girlfriend likes it
>



I'm sure I'd be a lady gaga fan. Lol


>was Madonna some vocal phenom, with incredible song
>structures?



Song structures? Yeah. Gaga turned one of them into another hit
just recently. Madonna's production was always top notch,
and again... Madonna could emote.

Beyonce can't.


>
>
>
>

  

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bentagain
Member since Mar 19th 2008
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Fri Oct-21-11 12:32 PM

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57. "Because the pop music landscape is so awful"
In response to Reply # 54
Fri Oct-21-11 12:32 PM by bentagain

  

          

I feel like the Pop Music genre sucks the soul out of all sub genres

when rock and roll broke there was a lot of quality music that was also successful commercially

as that genre became consumed by the Pop Music blob, we ended up with soft rock, yacht rock, glam rock, etc...

continue the analogy and add elements from hip-hop and R&B being consumed by the same Pop Music blob

and we end up where we are today

I feel like you could take the original post, and replace every reference to B with the words Pop Music, and you wouldn't be altering it's meaning

"How cynical and lazy we have become! How complacent! We have lionized pop music, even when pop music is trying (and pop music tries), cannot make you feel a thing about anything. Why has pop music's greatness become an assumption? A ubiquitous assumption, at that? Why, when Barack needed someone to sing at his inauguration, did he default to a pop music artist who, in 50 years, when the Ant Overlords dissect our "culture," will be dismissed as an example of how to effectively market blandness, perfect hair, and enticing thighs to the masses? Why have we just accepted pop music as something good, something to be admired, something worth celebrating? Has pop music ever made anyone cry? Does pop music raise goose bumps? Or do we just appreciate pop music, the same way we appreciate the terra cotta soldiers or El Greco? Yes, it's impressive pop music can do that, but when all is said and done, all you have is a bunch of pretty shit jammed together in one space. Over the past 10 years, I have had dozens of conversations about pop music with people who are much smarter than me. I have yet to meet anyone who has any strong opinion about pop music. Sure, a lot of people say they love pop music but only out of a sense of duty, almost as if admitting to not liking pop music would cast them as soulless neophytes who, by extension, also hate Barack Obama, Aretha Franklin, Ma Rainey, and Muhammad Ali.

I don't buy into any of that. I refuse to accept pop music. I watch singing competitions because I believe that life can be better than pop music"

I just find it unfair to direct all of the criticism toward one person



---------------------------------------------------------------

If you can't understand it without an explanation

you can't understand it with an explanation

  

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Joe Corn Mo
Member since Aug 29th 2010
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Fri Oct-21-11 01:12 PM

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58. "so why can't we just say this: "nobody is really great right now.""
In response to Reply # 57


  

          

i agree with what you said...
so why can't folks just say that beyonce
isn't one of the greats.

there's no shame in that.

not many people are one of the greats.

that's why we call them great,
instead of common.

  

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bentagain
Member since Mar 19th 2008
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Fri Oct-21-11 01:34 PM

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59. "Metrics"
In response to Reply # 58


  

          

people might look at quantitaive metrics like

awards

sales

etc...

and make a comparison to established greats

which are usually very favorable for her


---------------------------------------------------------------

If you can't understand it without an explanation

you can't understand it with an explanation

  

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Joe Corn Mo
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Fri Oct-21-11 02:55 PM

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61. "even if that respect, she's not seeing MJ or the beatles. "
In response to Reply # 59


  

          

or diana ross/ the supremes, for that matter.


i think people just feel a need
to prop her up to a level that she doesn't need to be propped up to.

she does cool records sometimes,
she's pretty, she has a great voice,
and she has a "diva" persona that people get into.


to compare her to the greats
is disrecectful to the legends, and quite frankly,
it's unfair to beyonce.


why does she have to be "the next MJ" or "the heir do diana ross"?

why can't she just be beyonce?

  

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Joe Corn Mo
Member since Aug 29th 2010
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Fri Oct-21-11 11:04 AM

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47. "RE: you already come into the battle that Janet music is better"
In response to Reply # 39
Fri Oct-21-11 11:05 AM by Joe Corn Mo

  

          

>but that is all hype bullshit because Janet has no soul in
>her music especially singing over those metal drums that Jam
>and Lewis created.


"let's wait a while" destroys this argument.
barely any drums.

just a keyboard and janet's voice... which totally works.
even though janet "can't sing."

beyonce can't do that.
or at least, she hasn't released any material
that proves that she can.




> what dancing did she do in Scream
>that was so awe inspiring


3:17-3:32, she's dancing identicially to MJ,
who is killing it, btw.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0P4A1K4lXDo&ob=av2e




and only person who would get
>embrassed dancing with Michael is niggas like Usher

and that happened, on the 30th reunion special.


>and Prince
>aint no real dancer


why are we talking about prince?




>The point is once Janet was called an icon then why is it hard
>for Beyonce to be named one since she is far superior to Janet
>in lmost every way




because beyonce can't emote like janet did
on "let's wait a while"
and beyonce doesn't have a song as good as "pleasure principal"
and beyonce's dancing is on the level of prince,
in that i can appreciate that she's definitely doing...er, something?

but janet, she is not. check the scream clip i showed you
for evidence.

  

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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
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Fri Oct-21-11 10:54 AM

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44. "B is a quantity over quality artist. "
In response to Reply # 37


          

Janet had the best song writers at the time and it's not even close when it comes to hit songs and emotion.

The intro and first verse to Let's Wait Awhile is probably better than anything Beyonce has put out.

That song made you believe Janet was a virgin... That's the Way Love Goes.. Pleasure Principle, Miss You Much, geez and damn near every slow song she recorded was raw emotion. She was also messing with the DeBarge dude and he was a pretty good song writer as well.

I think the live instruments play a part in the soul Jane t has over B. Everything B does is cold and robotic. Beyonce never gets hurt, never put her heart on her sleave, it's all power and strength.. Who Runs the World, Girls? GTFOH...

It's not even close between these 2...

  

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Teknontheou
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Fri Oct-21-11 10:36 AM

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38. "Diane had a beautiful, subtle tone."
In response to Reply # 35


  

          

It fit perfectly with the sophisticated thing Mr. Gordy went for with them.

  

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Joe Corn Mo
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45. "i agree. i only said she "arguablly" couldn't sing "
In response to Reply # 38


  

          

becuase i didn't feel like having that debate.
i think diana ross has a lovely voice.

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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Fri Oct-21-11 11:05 AM

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48. "Diane couldn't SANG"
In response to Reply # 45


  

          

or rather, she *didn't* sang... because that was not her image. She was never out there to compete on the same level as Aretha or the other church singers. In fact, Berry deliberately bred all that out of her... taught her not to contort her body, growl and make ugly faces, which apparently she used to be in the early days.

But Diane could SING.

_____________________

http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2010/287/6/c/the_wire_lineup__huge_download_by_dennisculver-d30s7vl.jpg
The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

  

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unohoo
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Fri Oct-21-11 11:17 AM

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50. "There aren't valid arguments for anyone else."
In response to Reply # 0


          

I mean I like Beyonce, and even agree with the writer, but her greatness is simply an indicator of the lack of talent in the field.

--------------------

blah blah blah

  

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SoWhat
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Fri Oct-21-11 11:35 AM

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52. "why does it have to be about anyone else?"
In response to Reply # 50


  

          

maybe there's just no one great around right now.

fuck you.

  

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unohoo
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Fri Oct-21-11 11:53 AM

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53. "It doesn't."
In response to Reply # 52


          

>maybe there's just no one great around right now.

I think people see the ambition/effort and respond to that. She sings, acts and dances, and is successful at it. She gets the crown by default because no one else appears to come close.

And again, you're right, there does not have to be a 'great' for these times, but the tendency is to crown one, and Beyonce is the only one trying.

--------------------

blah blah blah

  

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SoWhat
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55. "lol see #6."
In response to Reply # 53


  

          

fuck you.

  

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unohoo
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Fri Oct-21-11 03:59 PM

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62. "Ha! So we agree."
In response to Reply # 55


          

Dude, I could have sworn I read your response.

Oh, and may the Cardinals die slow.

--------------------

blah blah blah

  

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SoWhat
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154163 posts
Fri Oct-21-11 04:03 PM

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63. "LOL"
In response to Reply # 62


  

          

LET'S GO REDBIRDS!

*clap* *clap*

good series so far.

fuck you.

  

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Teknontheou
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32225 posts
Fri Oct-21-11 12:28 PM

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56. "History abhors a diva vacuum"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

She's the only woman since Mariahs golden era of the 90s that has convinced people that she's worked hard enough for that title. That's probably why se hasn't taken a break lasting longer that 9 or 10 months since 1998. All the past divas either could sang, had killer material, or some combo. But probably due to the narrowing of what is made available in the music world, we're just settling for divine divatude.

  

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smooth va
Member since May 02nd 2005
6059 posts
Fri Oct-21-11 01:45 PM

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60. "being the best in a wack era does not equal greatness"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

"This is dedicated to whom it may concern."-Donny Hathaway

  

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johnbook
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64926 posts
Fri Oct-21-11 06:06 PM

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64. "Technically, all levels of "greatness" are assumptions aren't they? n/m"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          





THE HOME OF BOOK-NESS:
http://www.thisisbooksmusic.com/
http://twitter.com/thisisjohnbook
http://www.facebook.com/book1


http://i32.tinypic.com/kbewp4.gif

  

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bentagain
Member since Mar 19th 2008
14434 posts
Mon Oct-24-11 09:10 AM

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65. "Beyonce vs Jay-Z"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Jay-Z is the general consensus for GOAT status nowadays (at least that's the impression I get)

he's not the most lyrical

doesn't have the best albums

gets outshined by guest MCs

etc...

yet when you factor in all the things he does well

consistently #1

global appeal

entrepreneur

etc...

it's hard not to label him the GOAT

I don't understand why people have such a hard time with arriving at the same conclusion for B


---------------------------------------------------------------

If you can't understand it without an explanation

you can't understand it with an explanation

  

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Joe Corn Mo
Member since Aug 29th 2010
15139 posts
Mon Oct-24-11 09:18 AM

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66. "a few critical differences. "
In response to Reply # 65


  

          

>Jay-Z is the general consensus for GOAT status nowadays (at
>least that's the impression I get)
>
>he's not the most lyrical
>


but he is lyrical.
beyonce is not soulful, at all.
and in thet type of music she does...that's pretty importnat.




>doesn't have the best albums
>




but he does have some great albums. at least 2 classics/
beyonce doesn't have one.




>>yet when you factor in all the things he does well
>
>consistently #1
>
>global appeal
>
>entrepreneur
>
>etc...
>
>it's hard not to label him the GOAT
>
>I don't understand why people have such a hard time with
>arriving at the same conclusion for B
>
>
>




because at the end of the day, nobody cares
about beyonce's records.

people still care about jay-z. his records... not just
his persona. niggas in the barbershop are still quoting
shit from reasonable doubt when we talk about rap.


nobody gives a damn about beyonce's old records.
they just like the fact that she's a diva.

  

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bentagain
Member since Mar 19th 2008
14434 posts
Mon Oct-24-11 11:15 AM

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67. "niggas in the barbershop "
In response to Reply # 66
Mon Oct-24-11 11:28 AM by bentagain

  

          

how do the bitches in the hair salon feel about B

"in thet type of music she does...that's pretty importnat"

it's important to have soul to do Pop Music?





---------------------------------------------------------------

If you can't understand it without an explanation

you can't understand it with an explanation

  

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Joe Corn Mo
Member since Aug 29th 2010
15139 posts
Mon Oct-24-11 11:29 AM

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68. "like i said..."
In response to Reply # 67


  

          

>how do the bitches in the hair salon feel about B



they love her.
but i wouldn't expect to hear them talk about her songs.

well, at least not her old songs.

i would expect them to discuss whatever new and popular song
beyonce has out at the time.

and they will talk about what a diva she is,
and yet seems to be humble and nice in real life.

and that she is working hard, and that there is nobody
else out there that is doing it better than her.



again, though... i wouldn't expect to hear a word
about her (old) records.




contrast that with somebody like janet.

if janet came up in coversation,
people might talk about some of her old videos or albums.


and contrast that with jay-z...
where people will mention the blueprint or reasonable doubt
as an album.


in otherwords... people care about jay-z's music.

nobody cares about beyonce's music, execpt for
whatever is currently out and popular while they are having
the conversation.

  

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