like if you listen to early Naughty, Treach was a beast compared to a
lot of the emcees around that time. We know him and Pac were tight and
Pac was cool but he started coming into his own around 94 when that Thug
Life LP came out. I think that's when he started to pass Treach personally.
What's your take? Was Pac always better? or did Treach have the edge in
the beginning of their careers?

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It's funny how sometimes a persona(or a schtick depending who you talk to) can overshadow how talented someone is. I think Treach falls under that category right along with Busta, ODB, Mystikal, and a few others.

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Pac made better songs but he wasn't fuckin with Treach on pure skills. No way. No how.


************************

>Pac made better songs

Huh?

Naughty was one of the acts that solidified the idea of hip-hop SONGS rather than just hip-hop "tracks"... and they basically owned the copyright to that for a few years

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But facts is facts.

Naughty By Nature has at most 5 songs that are readily recognizable to even non hip-hop audiences.


Pac probably has closer to two dozen such songs.

************************

>But facts is facts.
>
>Naughty By Nature has at most 5 songs that are readily
>recognizable to even non hip-hop audiences.
>



>Pac probably has closer to two dozen such songs.


^^ LOL at this

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And I stand by that.

You think Naughty By Nature is bigger than Pac in Angola? lol


************************

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Do I contradict myself?
Very well then I contradict myself,
(I am large, I contain multitudes.)

Walt Whitman

Dear Mama
I Get Around
Hit Em Up
So Many Tears
Pain
Me And My Girlfriend
Temptations
Life Goes On
Hail Mary
Brendas Got A Baby
How Do You Want It
California Love
To Live And Die In LA
Amibitinz As A Ridah
Me Against The World
Only god Can Judge Me
Keep Ya Head Up
Toss It Up
All About You
Changes

^^^These are off the top.

Like I said, close to two dozen instantly recognizable Pac songs ANYWHERE you go on this planet. From Egypt to Bangladesh they know these songs, or at least the vast majority of them.

NBN even having 4 is a stretch.

************************

I can co-sign about half that list. I don't think some of those are nearly as known to "non hip-hop audiences" as you might think.

--

Meanwhile, Naughty have more than 4 very well-known songs. I originally started listing them the day this post first went up and then I decided that it was probably too obvious.

I guess not.

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And I'm curious, can you list the songs on that list that you don't know?

Coz that would mean there are Pac albums you skipped...which would be weird.


************************

Apart from his first two... or maybe three, I don't think I ever listened to a 2Pac album from beginning to end. And I don't see what's weird about that. Here on the East Coast, MAD hip-hop heads didn't give a fuck about no Pac... Only after he died did cats start getting into him with that revisionist "Greatest MC of all Time" shit.

I never bought the hype though... Pac has a couple of songs I've kinda liked, but I've never been into his shit and have no interest in getting into it now.

But you've kinda defeated your own point in a way: you're suggesting that one has to listen to all Pac's albums (ie be a Pac fan) to know all these songs. They're not songs that everybody in the world is supposed to know.

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is specifically because you're Nigerian.

You know damn well Pac is a religion in Nigeria and the rest of Africa.

But still, could you list the names of the songs you don't know on that list? I'm curious about this.

************************

and like I mentioned, I was East Coast to the core (when that still meant something)

Who knows? If I had been in Nigeria (or if I hung out in Nigerian circles) I might have been more into Pac... but I doubt it. I was in Nigeria when 2Pacalypse Now and Strictly for my N.I.G.G.A.Z. dropped. While cats were going loco over them, I was wondering what the appeal was and worrying that the 90s were really gonna suck if this was the kind of shit that was coming on the scene lol

I just never understood the love for 2Pac's music; I understood his appeal as an icon and a magnetic personality, but the music itself? *throws up hands*

Eventually, I understood why people are drawn to his raps because of the raw emotionalism of both the content and the delivery... but I don't get why anybody thinks he's a great MC.

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outside of the east coast area (NYC, Philly, Jersey) Pac been one of the
greatest. just goes to show how much the east coast was on their own dicks
and also why they stay losing now outside of Jay & Nas.

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>outside of the east coast area (NYC, Philly, Jersey) Pac been
>one of the
>greatest. just goes to show how much the east coast was on
>their own dicks
>and also why they stay losing now outside of Jay & Nas.

Well... technically you're right, I guess.

I remember when I used to visit friends on the West coast and the midwest and they would actually be *offended* and even more so HURT when I told them that (most of) the East Coast was not feeling Pac too tough. They would talk about how all of us in "New York" (that's how they referred to the entire East) hated everybody who was different from us.

And the really touching thing about it was the fact that you got the sense that they really, really *wanted* our approval--this was back in the day when it was impossible to be considered legit in the hip-hop world without NYC's cosign--and we just weren't trying to hear them.

But in my case, as well as with many other E.C. hip-hop heads I knew, it was not a matter of simple xenophobia: We were open to hip-hop from anywhere as long as we thought it was dope*. And fortunately, Pac and many others like him just were not dope.



*I'll admit that "dope" often meant "sounds like it's from New York or is clearly influenced by East Coast lyrical values" eg The B.U.M.s, The Pharcyde, Freestyle Fellowship, Common Sense, Ras kass, etc

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>*I'll admit that "dope" often meant "sounds like it's from New
>York or is clearly influenced by East Coast lyrical values" eg
>The B.U.M.s, The Pharcyde, Freestyle Fellowship, etc

i was about to say the same exact thing. at least you admitted it. cats
did really did want that NYC approval though. i can't deny that. Kast and
the like were ecstatic if they received four mics or more from the source
during the early to mid 90's era.

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I think the term "East Coast" is being used somewhat liberally here. Anyone from south of Philadelphia had a very different opinion of Pac than what you are describing as commonplace on the "east coast".

For the sake of clarification, I think you are talking about the Northeast.

Baltimore and all of Maryland.
DC
VA

was pretty much part of 'Pac Country, at least insofar the average rap listener as being aware of all his major and minor hits.

I'm from the lost black tribe of Israel, the Yos

http://coolehmag.com/frontEnd/

but point taken!

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.

https://soundcloud.com/matt-koelling-666011203

www.somethinginthewudder.com

https://twitter.com/nostrabombus

https://www.facebook.com/matt.koelling.96

https://www.instagram.com/something_in_the_wudder/

https://www.linkedin.com/in/matt-koelling-438a80

then why is Treach never brought up when speaking on top emcees? why is
Kay Gee never brought up when speaking on top producers? and why is Naughty
never brought up when speaking on the top hip hop groups?

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brought up? how about dj hollywood? even kool g rap. because some acts get forgotten. grand puba influenced tons of cats, was a style maker, and now?

************************************************************

Kool G Rap gets plenty of love around here. i can't speak on them other
cats because i'm not too familiar with them. a bit before my time. Puba
is lazy. he's been exposed. he was dope for his time but he dropped the
ball. Sadat is now the best nigga in Brand Nubian. been that way since
about 95 IMO.

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you said "before my time," which is also part of the problem. treach and naughty's success is before alot of young listeners were really listening to music. doesn't mean naughty isn't one of the dopest groups ever. 4 very dope albums, 1 decent album, and their debut, which i've never heard.

************************************************************

true but a lot of the groups that get mentioned here on a monthly basis
were from the same period as Naughty so why aren't they mentioned with
Wu-Tang, ATCQ, De La Soul, Gang Starr etc.?

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Personally I put Naughty on the same level as those other groups. But maybe because it's been longer since Naughty mattered. Their last run was Natures Fury in 99. Their music after that was not good, and none of them did anything on the solo tip so theyve been out of the public eye for a long time. For those other groups, Q-Tip became a relevant solo artist for Tribe. Gang Starr made it until 2003 and Premier was/is major on his own. De La put out a critically acclaimed album in 2004. Rae and Ghost are still putting out good albums now. Those groups or members of those groups have made good and fairly successful music a lot more recently than anyone from Naughty. That's the only reason I can think of for why Naughty gets forgotten.

true but even with that BDK gets mentioned on the reg and he ain't mattered
since 1990. not saying that Treach is on Kane's level or anything. just
saying though. is it that the big singles make hip hop purists write
them off as a pop act?

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Naughty By Nature really wasn't apart of anything huge. Although they tried with the Flava Unit but that movement never came to fruition.

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>and their debut, which i've never heard.

that seemed like a really weird way to end that Naughty testimonial, because I can't see how someone can passionately like Naughty without having heard their first album.

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https://www.facebook.com/matt.koelling.96

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Great, but i haven't felt compelled to get it yet. And honestly, how many here have really heard it? And while i like naughty by nature, i was never passionate about them. Their just very dope.

************************************************************

All 'New Style' really meant to me was a trivia question & the vocal sample on "Yoke The Joker".

I forgot they even made an album before that under that name to tell you the truth, I was buying/dubbing/stealing/college-radio-recording/bootlegging every rap album imaginable in 1989 & that one still completely missed me.

https://soundcloud.com/matt-koelling-666011203

www.somethinginthewudder.com

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https://www.facebook.com/matt.koelling.96

https://www.instagram.com/something_in_the_wudder/

https://www.linkedin.com/in/matt-koelling-438a80

.

************************************************************

u realize Puba had his first hit in 1984??

he has also produced classics

you just made yourself sound like a complete ass

"You're a psycho, fanatic semi-racist from previous engagements we've had"

--OKP cidolfas on Sir Lord Jansport

Puba is overrated to me so I could care less what he did in the 80's my man. I don't really fuck with hip hop pre Rakim so if that makes me an ass, I'm cool with that. Puba has no classics in my eyes.

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- Treach - Guard Your Grill. Puba was a crazy good rapper.

Naughty's third album was pretty underrated as well, and Treach was dope on it.

-----------------

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Checkin' Our Style, Return To Zero:

https://www.mixcloud.com/returntozero/

Sunshine is one of my favorite Naughty tracks. as is World Go Round

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very good album.

“So back we go to these questions — friendship, character… ethics.”

they were huge. i can't remember the last time i heard anyone talk about them.

************************************************************

NBN was dope, Treach was incredible, KayGees beats were dope...
they had street shit, pop shit, lyrics, hooks,


I don't know how ppl forget them.

but as a whole, nope.

------------------------------

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when was Treach NOT better than 2Pac?

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speaking on the top emcees. even Eminem gets the side eye when he mentions
Treach as one of his influences. and cats here rarely mention him.

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naughty by nature were huge in the 90's. eminem could definitely be influenced by treach, esp with his sing songy 1st singles.

************************************************************

i'm not saying i give him the side eye. check out Em's interviews, when
he mentions Treach, niggas are always like "really?" Treach just doesn't
get that respect for some reason.

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Rest In Peace, Bad News Brown

The original Flo-Rida but with vicious lyrical skills.

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************************************************************

a lot of good MCs are forgotten. when's the last time you heard somebody mention Grand Puba?

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Puba's not mentioned because of himself though. it's come out that dude
was lazy and he pretty much didn't live up to his potential. Sadat X
even gets a yearly post around these parts. i started it this year but
Treach is almost never mentioned. i can probably count the Treach posts
on one hand since i've been posting here in 07.

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but he wrote and produced MULTIPLE classics

"sexy" with masters of cermony
produced "step up front" a positive k classic
one for all
the 2000 album

just those alone sun 98% of cats

and yes Treach was always better than Pac

and the reason Naughty doesn't get as much love was because they were commercial at a time when it was frowned upon to do so. So while "uptown anthem" is accepted across the board...some of their singles was seen as too pop to be considered amongst the gang starrs, tribes etc

nobody who was THERE in the 90s would ever front on treach skill

"You're a psycho, fanatic semi-racist from previous engagements we've had"

--OKP cidolfas on Sir Lord Jansport

Obviously you're a big Puba fan. He's overrated to me so we can agree to disagree on that.

******************************************
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...dont remember Pac's records ever getting that treatment upon release

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Tribe's first record also got 5 mics big homie and we know it's not better than Midnight Marauders. They made mistakes back then too. Looking at the other albums that came out then I can't see how All for One managed to get 5 mics.. I think In God We Trust is better personally.

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tribe's first 3 albums are all on par with each other. i'd say midnight marauders got robbed by NOT being a 5 mic album, but it isn't BETTER than peoples instinctive travels......

************************************************************

Ice Cube had to come to new york

http://twitter.com/Menphyel7


"F you Im better in tune with the Infinite"

source named them 5 mic albums in 2002

************************************************************

that was a cop out. the source has always been east coast biased. they were changing mic ratings trying to save face in that bullshit issue. on some we should've gave this album 4 1/2 mics but we had east coast hip hop's dick shoved so far down our throats that our vision was clouded.

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Rest In Peace, Bad News Brown

>that was a cop out. the source has always been east coast
>biased. they were changing mic ratings trying to save face in
>that bullshit issue. on some we should've gave this album 4
>1/2 mics but we had east coast hip hop's dick shoved so far
>down our throats that our vision was clouded.

'Cause it really doesn't reflect reality.

The Source only started giving out mic ratings in 1990, when they moved their offices from NY to Boston and starting getting major national distribution. So albums like "Straight Outta Compton" and "No One Can Do it Better" didn't get 5 Mics because they weren't handing out mic ratings when those albums dropped. So the idea the only rewarded West Coast artists like Ice Cube 5 Mics when he "went to New York" (advanced above; not by you) doesn't hold any water.

The Source's Golden Age, when Five Mics really "counted," lasted from 1990 to late 1994, when the O.G. Mind Squad left due to Benzino's bullshit. During that time period, a whopping seven albums got the 5 Mic rating:

People's Instinctive Travels and the Paths of Rhythm -- A Tribe Called Quest
Let the Rhythm Hit 'Em -- Eric B. & Rakim
AmeriKKKa's Most Wanted -- Ice Cube
One for All -- Brand Nubian
De La Soul Is Dead -- De La Soul
The Low End Theory -- A Tribe Called Quest
Illmatic -- Nas

That's it. That's all. It wasn't like they were giving album 5 Mics rating Original Flavor or Boogiemonster albums. People like to complain that "The Chronic" and "Southernplayalistic" only got 4.5 mics during this period. Well, so did revered NY albums "Ready to Die," "Enter the 36 Chambers," and "Breaking Atoms." "Doggy Style," "Me Against the World," and "The Diary," may have "only" gotten four mics, but so did "Mecca and the Soul Brother" and "Midnight Marauders."

So basically, the idea that the Source was somehow being unfair to albums from the West and the South while unfairly rewarding albums from the East Coast doesn't hold very much water.

-----------------

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Checkin' Our Style, Return To Zero:

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>>that was a cop out. the source has always been east coast
>>biased. they were changing mic ratings trying to save face
>in
>>that bullshit issue. on some we should've gave this album 4
>>1/2 mics but we had east coast hip hop's dick shoved so far
>>down our throats that our vision was clouded.
>
>'Cause it really doesn't reflect reality.
>
>The Source only started giving out mic ratings in 1990, when
>they moved their offices from NY to Boston and starting
>getting major national distribution. So albums like "Straight
>Outta Compton" and "No One Can Do it Better" didn't get 5 Mics
>because they weren't handing out mic ratings when those albums
>dropped. So the idea the only rewarded West Coast artists like
>Ice Cube 5 Mics when he "went to New York" (advanced above;
>not by you) doesn't hold any water.

you my man fam but they gave Death Certificate, The Chronic, Doggystyle,
the diary, and me against the world five mics after the fact. east
coast bias prevented them from giving those albums proper due at the
time of their release.

>
>The Source's Golden Age, when Five Mics really "counted,"
>lasted from 1990 to late 1994, when the O.G. Mind Squad left
>due to Benzino's bullshit. During that time period, a whopping
>seven albums got the 5 Mic rating:
>
>People's Instinctive Travels and the Paths of Rhythm -- A
>Tribe Called Quest
>Let the Rhythm Hit 'Em -- Eric B. & Rakim
>AmeriKKKa's Most Wanted -- Ice Cube
>One for All -- Brand Nubian
>De La Soul Is Dead -- De La Soul
>The Low End Theory -- A Tribe Called Quest
>Illmatic -- Nas
>
>That's it. That's all. It wasn't like they were giving album 5
>Mics rating Original Flavor or Boogiemonster albums. People
>like to complain that "The Chronic" and "Southernplayalistic"
>only got 4.5 mics during this period. Well, so did revered NY
>albums "Ready to Die," "Enter the 36 Chambers," and "Breaking
>Atoms." "Doggy Style," "Me Against the World," and "The
>Diary," may have "only" gotten four mics, but so did "Mecca
>and the Soul Brother" and "Midnight Marauders."

no doubt. they did short change a few east coast classics

>
>So basically, the idea that the Source was somehow being
>unfair to albums from the West and the South while unfairly
>rewarding albums from the East Coast doesn't hold very much
>water.

at the end of the day it was still an east coast mag ran by east coast
dudes and NY dudes weren't showing much love to cats outside of their
region back in the early to mid 90's.

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>you my man fam but they gave Death Certificate, The Chronic,
>Doggystyle,
>the diary, and me against the world five mics after the fact.
>east
>coast bias prevented them from giving those albums proper due
>at the
>time of their release.


completely different staff did that. death certificate got 4.5 mics. nothing wrong with that. so did the chronic (it's impact fully hit AFTER the album dropped and AFTER the source reviewed it. it is a 4.5 mic album minus it's impact on the music). doggystyle got 4 mics (but so did reasonable doubt and the score), and i'd say doggystyle is at best a 4.5 mic album.

************************************************************

none of the albums that they gave 5 mics to had impact prior to their
release and some of the albums that received it didn't have that big of
an impact at all so what's your point?

Doggystyle is a classic hands down. Better than Reasonable Doubt too. RD
got what it deserved. Death Certificate is a five mic album if there ever
was one. Guess they just didn't wanna give Cube two five mic albums in a
row but wait, didn't they do that for ATCQ?

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>>you my man fam but they gave Death Certificate, The
>Chronic,
>>Doggystyle,
>>the diary, and me against the world five mics after the
>fact.
>>east
>>coast bias prevented them from giving those albums proper
>due
>>at the
>>time of their release.
>
>
>completely different staff did that. death certificate got 4.5
>mics. nothing wrong with that. so did the chronic (it's impact
>fully hit AFTER the album dropped and AFTER the source
>reviewed it. it is a 4.5 mic album minus it's impact on the
>music). doggystyle got 4 mics (but so did reasonable doubt and
>the score), and i'd say doggystyle is at best a 4.5 mic
>album.

Certificate". It was so acerbic though, I don't know if that was a political move giving it 4.5 but that album kicked you in the ass right from the 1st listen.
I totally agree on "The Chronic". I remember being slightly letdown when I first heard "Doggystyle" because by that time "The Chronic" had set in as a certified classic and most heads expected more of the same. No reason that I can see that it deserves a higher ranking than "Reasonable Doubt" or "The Score". And is he trying to argue that "Me Against The World" & "The Diary" were 5 mics albums out the box? I can't see it (c) dude from the Odd Squad. I'm not denying the existence of an East Coast bias but this just isn't a strong argument for it.
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I mean of course they did that's where they came from.

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"F you Im better in tune with the Infinite"

there shouldn't be a question in anyone's minds
Treach is one of the most skilled emcees ever, he's right under the upper echelon emcees as far as skill level

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Garhart Ivanhoe Poppwell
Un-OK'd moderator for The Lesson and Make The Music (yes, I do's work up in here, and in your asscrease if you run foul of this

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Pac might lack this or that, but the cat had a personality on and off the stage, as talented as Treach was, he never really stood out.

what good is it to be skilled and yet lack personality and not really ever stand out?

mistermaxxx R.Kelly, Michael Jackson,Stevie wonder,Rick James,Marvin Gaye,El Debarge, Barry WHite Lionel RIchie,Isleys EWF,Lady T.,Kid creole and coconuts,the crusaders,kc sunshine band,bee gees,jW,sd,NE,JB

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between lacking personality or charisma and not having as much as Pac.

But you could certainly feel Treach's personality stand out in a song/video like 'Ghetto Bastard'.

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as talented as treach was, suge knight would never have snoop dogg be backup qb to no treach, but pac was the golden ticket cuz he had that "it" treach never did

mistermaxxx R.Kelly, Michael Jackson,Stevie wonder,Rick James,Marvin Gaye,El Debarge, Barry WHite Lionel RIchie,Isleys EWF,Lady T.,Kid creole and coconuts,the crusaders,kc sunshine band,bee gees,jW,sd,NE,JB

Miami Heat, New York Yankees,buffalo bills

was that almost anybody 'lacks charisma' compared to Pac, charisma/starpower/'it'-quality was that dude's greatest attribute as an artist/entertainer.

https://soundcloud.com/matt-koelling-666011203

www.somethinginthewudder.com

https://twitter.com/nostrabombus

https://www.facebook.com/matt.koelling.96

https://www.instagram.com/something_in_the_wudder/

https://www.linkedin.com/in/matt-koelling-438a80

all over the lanes.

he might be channeling a too short in a way

he had a hammer thing with a commerical song and groove

he might be trying to parlay a ICE T thang.

Treach never had a clear cut idenity and he was therefore as only as good as what Naughty by Nature could offer him.

a victim of being a tight leader in a group but no real idenity to speak beyond, he had the Q Tip Syndrome if you will

whereas 2Pac had some much "IT" you nearly forgot he was associated with Shock G who ain't chop liver, but still Pac just got you like that and that counts a whole lot.

mistermaxxx R.Kelly, Michael Jackson,Stevie wonder,Rick James,Marvin Gaye,El Debarge, Barry WHite Lionel RIchie,Isleys EWF,Lady T.,Kid creole and coconuts,the crusaders,kc sunshine band,bee gees,jW,sd,NE,JB

Miami Heat, New York Yankees,buffalo bills