You should be able to tell this from the name. I mean anything prefixed with 'UK' quite obviously cannot be funky. If ever there were a nation devoid of funk it would be the 'UK'. But it's just as likely you'll passover the 'UK' part and go straight to the Funky, in which case you will be horribly duped. Instead of funk you will find the type of music which inspires this kind of dancing - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cfOa1a8hYP8

I'm only telling you this so you don't fool yourself and then get pissed off when it's not funky. It's actually some pretty cool shit. But funky it is not.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gvmpfTQTbZY&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=48kbF4jc84w

>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=48kbF4jc84w


Yea OP you are wrong.....because this is my new favorite song !!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=byDRYI86cck&feature=related

.

can someone show me what's emblematic of the 'genre/style' ?

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
+++last man standing takes a seat+++
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
http://www.last.fm/user/chillhood

AWB is the exception, but all the others are not only case and point, but lend themselves to be influences.
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If I can make it in the mumu today i may play some
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1X-9BIHqG0

or is it cats from the UK playing funk music?

I will maintain they did make some good R&B (and maybe still do) over the years, even when it's not on that retro stuff

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all these US artists making UK funky music. Soooo confusing.
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with Mark's passing and all. In doing so a couple things hit me.... one being Slave is seriously underrated and may have been the rawest band of their era. But the other was what had me thinking of making a post along these lines but it wasn't going to focus solely on the UK. Since you put this post up I might as well address it here.

The question I had was why has it been so hard to make mid to late 70s style funk music now. I've heard just about every other genres retro attempt succeed at times but 70s funk seems elusive. I mean we've had a bunch of attempts but when you listen to a group like Slave you realize just how watered down the new shit is. Even the stuff that avoids the "Vegas Funk" stigma comes off just not quite right. I was trying to think about the artists that have come closest and right off the only name I could think of was Van Hunt. Why is it so damn hard for these younger cats to make some raw shit like we used to have?

*edit*
imcvspl if you'd rather I make another post about this just let me know
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Because I'd say Shafiq has a grasp on the funk, but he doesn't make retro music.

You're right though, no one really captures it. Perhaps the most elusive genre sound ever.
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yeah

I'm talking about shit like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7lX786bX9I

and this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqvNM8_fhUk
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I mean there was overdubbing back then as well but no where near as conveniently as we have it now. They still put the whole band in the booth and had them play that shit, overdubbing bg vocals here, maybe a solo there, but for the most part just recording the funk. With the introduction of virtual tracks making overdubbing possible to infinity, funk is produced now and not played.

Couple that with the Prince one man band production ethos and the fundamental element of the funk, playing off the other players, is completely lost.

For those people 'playing' funk it usually falls into the too many covers lane, where they just won't get the groove right because their emulating someone elses funk and not finding their own.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R249ft-baj4

>For those people 'playing' funk it usually falls into the too
>many covers lane, where they just won't get the groove right
>because their emulating someone elses funk and not finding
>their own.

I really like Chin Chin so I'm not trying to take a jab at them or anything ... but there's just no "nut" in this whatsoever.
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and cheezed the fuck out of Watching You.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITv11VpkAQk

That groove is a little easier to ride though
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Sly Stone did plenty of heavily funky shit, playing all by himself.

Prince played "Just as Long as We're Together/Jelly Jam", overdubbing every single part and it's sho nuff funky

Hell, even Shuggie Otis had some serious understated funk on Inspiration Information, all overdubbed.

So yeah... while I think the playing in real time thing is definitely important, it's not exactly a dealbreaker.

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>Because I'd say Shafiq has a grasp on the funk, but he
>doesn't make retro music.

Probably not. But I think he's learned from and applied his learning of the funk to his stuff. He can hit a groove, expand on it, change the melody, invert it, etc. I'm interested in why you'd disagree with that, beyond the subject line.
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maybe it's sort of what I've been thinking... that real funk like that can only be created inside an active funk culture. We've spent a lot of time on these boards talking about hip hop culture but I think funk was every bit as cultural as hip hop would become.
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I wonder. For all intents and purposes you can look at Space is the Place with the sound off and infer the funk culture but you'd be wrong. But I do think there is a _______ within funk collectives that could fit what you're hinting at.
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or I should say assimilated

George was the driving force in where funk was going but I wouldn't say any of it was all that original if taken one by one. It was the collective of all of it together and what they did with it that made it funky.
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Like a sense of values... or cultural mores, if you will.

It's like cats can intellectually understand the ingredients to playing funk, but they don't LIVE in that culture... or maybe it just don't live in them.

To employ a figure of speech I often overuse: they can play every note correctly, but they can't hear the music.

It's sort of like when Britney Spears and N Sync and all of them would dance... yes, they hit every step but somehow they're not dancing with soul. They're reproducing routines from memory.

Why this is, I do not know. Because I know these bands truly love funk music and probably listen to it all day. But somehow they're just not internalizing it.

And again, there is the chops issue. Most of these cats just can't play as well as the dudes in the past. And even when they ARE technically proficient players, they tend to employ their virtuosity in the wrong way (see: the "solo" sections at Roots shows)

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>And again, there is the chops issue. Most of these cats just
>can't play as well as the dudes in the past. And even when
>they ARE technically proficient players, they tend to employ
>their virtuosity in the wrong way (see: the "solo" sections at
>Roots shows)

I feel you though
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A big problem though is that people will not understand why that is true. one generation too far removed from the culture perhaps.
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I kinda regret going there... at least on this board. I really like and respect dude and don't want to be seen as taking cheap shots. Everyone has their strengths and weaknesses so I should have put it a little more tactfully if that was something I wanted to address.
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but dap to ya because shit i've been about to post some shit like that before on the grounds that it is the truth. but it is always touchy because of the subject. i know you meant no fowl in it.
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and for the record I think you hit on it...... one generation removed
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However, I don't think they're "funky".

But I prefer not to discuss that here, out of respect.


(for some reason I have no problem going on and on about how un-funky Voodoo is though lol)

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I would infer that it ("it" being the playing of funk, and its sumthin i would say of playing jazz as well, in particular free jazz) has a lot to do with the time period. the social and cutlrual mores of the late 60s and early 70s: sweeping social change, political unrest, and individual and community identities shifting and shaping new forms of Blackness (from embracing Afrocentric themes, to coming home from the Vietnam war, to entering different institutions like college or more managerial roles in business).

add that our generations (80s, 90s, aughts) have grown with less instrumentation in our musical/aesthetic lives, crack hit, and the rise of gang culture, the "feel" of Blackness has moved away from what informed funk on aesthetic and spiritual levels. This is why i feel AFKAP hits the nail on the head that no matter how much newer musicians study funk it doesn not come out sounding funky when the play it. they have a more socially mobile, technocratic and nihilisitc filter on their playing.

also from a compostion standpoint i don't believe the drums are "lively" enough and bass lines tend to be too rigid

>also from a compostion standpoint i don't believe the drums
>are "lively" enough and bass lines tend to be too rigid


I agree with you on the drums too, though I'm willing to give them more latitude there... as much as the drums lack "liveliness" I think they could be redeemed if they had more... elastic basslines. The bass is the fatal flaw.

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>The bass is the fatal flaw.


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"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

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and it HAS to be played...it cant be completely programmed or sampled...

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But I don't think he wants to. And for that he's a step ahead, because when he throws those funk licks overtop of some shit like UK Funky it's fucking otherworldly as opposed to been there done that.
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Funk has a bad rap amongst most people, especially young folks these days...

Funk is the ONLY style of Black Music that white folks could not completely mimic correctly and fully co-opt(there are some seriously funky yts here and there)...so the mainstream/commercial interest is nil...

Even artists who shout funk and talk abt it all the time are AFRAID to do it full out (Badu, The Roots)...it seems like its that one taboo Black thang that will make your white friends look at you funny....now of course if a white band is funkin', that's OKAY...

the current conventional wisdonm on Funk is that it was a passing fad and it was silly, non artistic, unsophisticated, disposable almost coon-ish music....

MOST people, Black and other, envision Funk music as P-Funk, Zapp, and their less talented clones(Midnight Star)aka Kramers in space suits making goofy sounds...the miseducation on Funk music is DEEP...the reason for that I think is rooted in my first paragraph....

young Black folk think Funk is passe, stupid, dated, and coon-ish...everyone elses think Funk is just dumb silly fun with no real musical significance...




>with Mark's passing and all. In doing so a couple things hit
>me.... one being Slave is seriously underrated and may have
>been the rawest band of their era. But the other was what had
>me thinking of making a post along these lines but it wasn't
>going to focus solely on the UK. Since you put this post up I
>might as well address it here.
>
>The question I had was why has it been so hard to make mid to
>late 70s style funk music now. I've heard just about every
>other genres retro attempt succeed at times but 70s funk seems
>elusive. I mean we've had a bunch of attempts but when you
>listen to a group like Slave you realize just how watered down
>the new shit is. Even the stuff that avoids the "Vegas Funk"
>stigma comes off just not quite right. I was trying to think
>about the artists that have come closest and right off the
>only name I could think of was Van Hunt. Why is it so damn
>hard for these younger cats to make some raw shit like we used
>to have?
>
>*edit*
>imcvspl if you'd rather I make another post about this just
>let me know
>_________________________________
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>Bringing Together Five Decades of R&B/Funk/Soul/Dance
>
>http://reunionradio.blogspot.com/
>
>Latest episode- Slave Tribute (RIP Mark L. Adams)


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I guess it depends on which kids. I'm thinking kids in their 20's. Don't interact much with teenagers. They appreciate the funk like anyone else The smarter ones aren't trying to emulate it though.
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But i do think Scorp is right in that a lot of them are white kids.
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because they do try but just can't pull it off
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I'm assuming you don't want to make funk music in 2011, yet are still heavily influenced by it right?
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if they love and appreciate funk so much, it would be more prevalent or even present, right??

(that was a low blow that's not even applicable....Im pretty disappointed you went there, bruh...)

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But trying to say their motivations for not making funk might be on par with your own. I love the fuck out of some funk but it's not the music I'd try to make because I don't think I can.

It parallels a convo I've had a lot recently with my partner who's a hardcore jazz head, but doesn't make jazz. Sometimes he tries but it never comes off. I tell him stop trying, you'll never hit it and that's perfectly okay, because from that base you can go places your idols could never imagine. Why try to emulate your idols when you can push what they took in new directions.
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(yes, I'm white, but hear me out)

There's just something missing when these guys get behind their instruments. Maybe they grew up on some other shit and just discovered "funk" in college.

Maybe that said "funk" was more P-Funk than JB/Meters funk.

Maybe they're so brainwashed by music theory/composition courses that they can't just sit back and play some funky shit (I've come across this MANY times and it's disgusting).

Or maybe it's true that us white folks are missing something when it comes to FUNK. Case in point, this shit:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4RcvOPcqm-A

^^^^ more influenced by Jamiroquai than early Prince, and not REALLY a funk band, but they definitely bill themselves as "funky" (I will say that the breakdown is pretty damn sweet though)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=geovptTt2k8

^^^^ sounds like a jam band doing James Brown AKA what most of these Nashville "funk" bands sound like.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JMN5MK3zILY

^^^^ anything starting off with that milquetoast "funky" guitar line is NOT gonna be funky

I've also noticed that we white folks make the organ sound corny. What gives? WHY CAN'T WE BE FUNKY, DAMMIT?

Bowls
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it's the more rock infused style of the mid 70s they seem to struggle with... which is kinda funny when you think about it.
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>it's the more rock infused style of the mid 70s they seem to
>struggle with... which is kinda funny when you think about
>it.

But then again it makes sense because the mid-70s stuff is more groove-oriented as opposed to the older style that had a more rigid... well, meter.

Plus: there's the gospel thing I noted before. I stand by it. 70s funk was by and large more "sanctified" even when it was earthy and nasty.

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vpHcQfUjWew

The drums and the bass, in particular. ESPECIALLY the drums.

A lot of mid-to-late 70's shit featured a much more tame rhythm, in my opinion. A simple, solid drum beat. Most of the "funk" seemed to come from the other instruments (enter slap bass and too much wah-wah). That seems to be the style that I hear most white funk bands employ.

Bowls
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so most white drummers and bass players will gravitate toward the more loose drumming of the late 60's/early 70's where you are shuffling with the snare the whole time, playing fills, etc...but if you REALLY listen, very few white cats are really in the pocket on that shit...like they can play your typical 8th note JB funk beat, but VERY FEW can nail funky drummer or some of the more famous Bernard Purdy breaks...because there is a slightly different groove and feel(esp funky drummer)...not driven by the snare shuffle, but the snare shuffle finds its place between the constant kick and 16th note hi hats...for some reason, many white folks can't find that groove...they like the more loose feel.

as far as bass players, I actually don't know many white cats who can pull off the late60's/early70's stuff correctly...they wanna slap and play harmonics and all this Jaco Pastorius shit...just cuz Jaco was good and (somewhat)funky, his style of playing doesn't necessarily equal funk...it is actually the main thing that gives funk a bad name imo...

I might have to upload some rough shit i've recorded over the years with my boy jeremy on bass (who is white and lives in the UK now, but he is funkier than funk can define) just because yall dont think people STILL play good funk...there are a few that do, but we also do other types of music, which unfortunately is in higher demand than good ol' funk...i'll be back with some treats hopefully

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>I might have to upload some rough shit i've recorded over the
>years with my boy jeremy on bass (who is white and lives in
>the UK now, but he is funkier than funk can define) just
>because yall dont think people STILL play good funk...there
>are a few that do, but we also do other types of music, which
>unfortunately is in higher demand than good ol' funk...i'll be
>back with some treats hopefully


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i hope i didn't set myself up...

i'm listening to some old shit, but realizing how ruff the mixes are and how very little of what i consider funk is an actual complete song, more song ideas...i'm wondering if any of yall wanna really hear just bass, guitar and drums and few actual songs...i have a few i guess if you include some "new funk" type stuff...

...ha, damn I just found this project me and my boy did for audio class in college where we just ripped off a funkadelic riff and wrote a song around it...and i sound like a kid and i'm rapping a million miles a minute...
ah...memories...shit is actually pretty funky but i might have to keep this one in the vault...

~-~-~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



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That Booker T/Meters/early JBs shit? They can do that to a T (see: Dap Kings).

But I have yet to hear white boys be able to approximate a Gap Band/P Funk/Kool and the Gang groove.

I live in Nashville and I know the type of faux funk acts that were mentioned earlier.

It's a damn shame when you go to a funk event and it's like 90% white.

Is a lot less than what was required to be on the scene during slaves day.
Cats don't grow up with the same musical standards in the mainstream that
Those 70's musicians grew up with. They grow up today knowing they can become
Famous music makers sitting in front of their computer.

An era is gonna birth what the young people grow up believing is the standard.

Which is why I said it most likely does take funk culture to make real funk music. because a big part of that culture was being just more than proficient on your instrument... anything less and you risked getting clowned. It was peer pressure pure and simple.

You're right... most of these cats don't have the skills needed let alone the inspiration of an active funk scene. I think thats why the 80s has been so much easier to reproduce... that was really the birth of the programmed shit we have now. The only thing is those cats back then could still play too when push came to shove.
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Reunion Radio Podcasts
Bringing Together Five Decades of R&B/Funk/Soul/Dance

http://reunionradio.blogspot.com/

Latest episode- Slave Tribute (RIP Mark L. Adams)

will move some segment of the industry to change that dynmaic....start promoting that type of R&B/funk/Soul vibe we talking about..and you'll see some groups making that type of music..

there is only so far that they can go using the elements their using today...

One thing about the era you're talking about...when you dig into the catalogs of those groups and artists....... they have disographies that are really solid.....variety....funky.....quality....even into times when you thought they were through (one of these days ima make that post about post-prime funk..there was solid songs on some of those albums that most of us dismissed because our classic groups were trying to be hip in the 80's or the 90's)

As to your larger question, I can think of a couple of reasons why:


1. The mid to late 70s was the last era before the computers took over black music. I know Sly Stone was using electric drums as far back as 1971, and P-Funk, Stevie Wonder, and Herbie used keyboards extensively. But everything wasn't an electronic extravaganza.

In the 80s it seemed like the drums AND keyboards AND horns got synthetic. I love me some 80s music - funk held on until around 1985 or so - but part of the appeal of funk for me is the rawness, grit and spontaneity, and it's harder to get that when everything is digital. It is too clean. My main record buying partner prefers 80s for that very reason, so it could be a matter of individual taste.


2. People were not as afraid to be themselves. Look at how people dressed or styled their hair in the 70s thru early 80s! I'd argue that carried over into their material as well. They were doing themselves, regardless of how it may look to other people.

I think a lot of folks today are worried about fitting in. There may be musicians who love the funk but they'll never put it out because they'll be looked at as corny.

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http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2010/287/6/c/the_wire_lineup__huge_download_by_dennisculver-d30s7vl.jpg
The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

the part about people being more individuals back then though I disagree with... Chess King wasn't making custom clothes.
_________________________________
Reunion Radio Podcasts
Bringing Together Five Decades of R&B/Funk/Soul/Dance

http://reunionradio.blogspot.com/

Latest episode- Slave Tribute (RIP Mark L. Adams)

because the question isn't about electronic drums and computers or any of that.

It's about bands that are playing instruments and seemingly capable of playing them well... and yet their funk still feels stepped on.

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http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2010/287/6/c/the_wire_lineup__huge_download_by_dennisculver-d30s7vl.jpg
The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

and make this post.

PLEASE OP... if you are out there, heed my prayer!

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http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2010/287/6/c/the_wire_lineup__huge_download_by_dennisculver-d30s7vl.jpg
The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

I upped this because I was about to make a post more or less about that and then remembered the discussion had already been started.


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Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." © Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

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http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2010/287/6/c/the_wire_lineup__huge_download_by_dennisculver-d30s7vl.jpg
The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali