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Subject: "US Soldier Sets Himself on Fire outside Israeli Embassy in Washington to..." Previous topic | Next topic
ummah1421
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5479 posts
Mon Feb-26-24 11:45 AM

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"US Soldier Sets Himself on Fire outside Israeli Embassy in Washington to..."


  

          

WASHINGTON DC
US Air Force member dies after setting himself on fire outside Israeli embassy in DC

The airman doused himself in a liquid and lit himself on fire while shouting “free Palestine." The self-immolation was livestreamed on the video platform Twitch
By Juliana Valencia, News4 Reporter and Associated Press • Published 4 hours ago • Updated 11 mins ago


NBC Universal, Inc.
An active-duty member of the U.S. Air Force has died after setting himself on fire Sunday outside the Israeli Embassy in Washington, D.C., while shouting “free Palestine.”

An active-duty member of the U.S. Air Force who set himself ablaze Sunday outside the Israeli Embassy in Washington, D.C., while shouting “free Palestine,” has died, a U.S. official confirmed to NBC News.

The airman was identified as Aaron Bushnell, 25, of San Antonio, Texas, D.C. police said.

http://instagram.com/schemeofthings

  

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Topic Outline
Subject Author Message Date ID
wow.. is this brave or crazy?
Feb 26th 2024
1
This is not a logical response to world events.
Feb 26th 2024
2
I can protest or speak on war..
Feb 27th 2024
37
no its just mental illness
Feb 26th 2024
3
^^^^^
Feb 26th 2024
4
Yep
Feb 26th 2024
11
      his last social media post
Feb 26th 2024
12
           It doesn't have to be either/or.
Feb 26th 2024
13
           I meant I want to see where he was getting his information
Feb 26th 2024
14
           I think you trying to frame this as an act of empathy is dangerous
Feb 26th 2024
19
           Explain why this is illegitimate
Feb 26th 2024
20
                I didn't say a protest is illegitimate. I said this form of protest.
Feb 27th 2024
39
                     Yes you did
Feb 27th 2024
42
                          I'll clarify using your language.
Feb 27th 2024
82
           I am not the gatekeeper of empathy, I got three responses
Feb 27th 2024
89
I don't like assuming he's crazy
Feb 26th 2024
8
      Co-sign!!
Feb 26th 2024
10
      But he was crazy. And he didn’t sacrifice anything.
Feb 26th 2024
21
           you're using the act alone to determine whether he was crazy or not
Feb 27th 2024
30
           crazy , yes but.. uh a bit of a sacrifice on this part
Feb 27th 2024
31
                Not only was he willing to die
Feb 27th 2024
34
                     there is a question here that can't be answered
Feb 27th 2024
44
Self-immolation in context
Feb 26th 2024
5
Norman Morrison is a more apt comparison.
Feb 26th 2024
6
And why was that particular Catholic in charge?
Feb 26th 2024
7
Obfuscation would also be distorting his explicit reason, no?
Feb 26th 2024
9
      No, it's just imprecision
Feb 26th 2024
17
      Or, put another way
Feb 26th 2024
18
           Fair.
Feb 26th 2024
23
                So how about hunger strikes?
Feb 26th 2024
24
                     Sure. Self-harm comes in many forms.
Feb 26th 2024
27
                          I think you're avoiding the question
Feb 27th 2024
35
                               No, you've just drifted away from the topic.
Feb 27th 2024
41
                                    I don't agree that's the only topic
Feb 27th 2024
43
More eloquent a response than was deserved but thank you for it anyway
Feb 26th 2024
22
Were the folks who killed themselves in Jonestown crazy?
Feb 26th 2024
16
      Is a gang banger crazy for dying over his block or gang affiliation?
Feb 27th 2024
36
      being in a gang or the army/combat isn't suicidal though
Feb 27th 2024
47
      its suicidal to get into a shootout over a tag
Feb 27th 2024
50
           but their intent is not to die
Feb 27th 2024
53
                Are we really sure their intent is not to die?
Feb 27th 2024
64
                     generally, yes
Feb 27th 2024
69
                          to be clear, I asked if a gang banger WHO DIED over a color is crazy
Feb 27th 2024
75
                               and that's not suicide
Feb 27th 2024
78
                                    I didn’t ask if it was suicide.
Feb 27th 2024
85
      THis is just lazy thinking. The internet will give you supporters/belie...
Feb 27th 2024
81
      Tankies are close to championing suicide bombers
Feb 27th 2024
92
sad and couldve been much worse
Feb 26th 2024
15
As in, he could have been a mass shooter ?
Feb 27th 2024
32
      Yep
Feb 27th 2024
59
that’s hardcore.
Feb 26th 2024
25
Revolutionary Suicide by Huey P Newton
Feb 26th 2024
26
And yet, Huey P Newton never committed suicide.
Feb 27th 2024
38
      making disingenuous points seems to be a hobby of yours
Feb 27th 2024
40
           Not disingenuous at all. I 100% believe there is no difference.
Feb 27th 2024
80
                okay, apologies
Feb 27th 2024
83
                As Walleye mentioned, what about hunger strikes?
Feb 28th 2024
102
                     Fam you can change your mind about a hunger strike.
Feb 28th 2024
106
what a fkn dummy
Feb 26th 2024
28
people are really like "I can't speak on this man's mental health state"
Feb 27th 2024
29
What
Feb 27th 2024
33
grew up on a religious compound, was an anarchist.
Feb 27th 2024
45
you don't say???
Feb 27th 2024
46
      *rolls eyes*
Feb 27th 2024
51
      lol
Feb 27th 2024
54
      I can't imagine the New York Times doing anything like that
Feb 27th 2024
60
      Now back to the actual topic ….
Feb 27th 2024
90
           I'm saying lol
Feb 28th 2024
107
                lol
Mar 07th 2024
156
      Points noted
Feb 27th 2024
61
Ben Shapiro is on Okayplayer??
Feb 27th 2024
48
It's okay to have nuanced and multi-faceted viewpoints on issues.
Feb 27th 2024
49
didnt do a deep dive but word is Bunshell had some reddit accounts
Feb 27th 2024
52
^^
Feb 27th 2024
56
yes
Feb 27th 2024
58
💯
Feb 27th 2024
88
Damn
Feb 27th 2024
55
      for real
Feb 27th 2024
57
      True
Feb 27th 2024
62
      Thats a damn shame
Feb 27th 2024
63
      its all team sports politics
Feb 27th 2024
67
      question
Feb 27th 2024
86
      chances the mod who deleted and banned you was a squatter
Feb 27th 2024
77
      who are you quoting?
Feb 27th 2024
93
           Ben Shapiro
Feb 28th 2024
108
                ok how is a quote from ben shapiro an example of this board having a pro...
Feb 29th 2024
111
                     I never said the quote I used was an example of the board's problem
Feb 29th 2024
113
                          those are the only things in the post brother
Mar 01st 2024
117
                               I was replying to the op in 48
Mar 01st 2024
119
                                    if your point was to add the missing information
Mar 02nd 2024
144
                                         My point was to add context because you asked
Mar 02nd 2024
146
                                              cool. those statements are all extremely different based on that little ...
Mar 04th 2024
153
                                                   I never said it was the same
Mar 04th 2024
154
MVP Walleye
Feb 27th 2024
65
I genuinely don't understand what's happening in this post
Feb 27th 2024
66
which is why I'm always amazed at your patience
Feb 27th 2024
70
some folks won’t acknowledge its politics as usual
Feb 27th 2024
74
Thank you, that's really kind
Feb 27th 2024
76
this is just lazy
Feb 27th 2024
95
one second, I haven't read all the replies
Feb 27th 2024
91
RE: I genuinely don't understand what's happening in this post
Feb 27th 2024
71
Yeah, restricting our political imagination is only a win for reaction
Feb 27th 2024
79
I'm wrestling with an element of this that's hard to reslove
Feb 27th 2024
87
      Sounds like a perfectly apt description of ambivalence
Feb 27th 2024
101
RE: I genuinely don't understand what's happening in this post
Feb 27th 2024
94
      RE: I genuinely don't understand what's happening in this post
Feb 27th 2024
96
           RE: I genuinely don't understand what's happening in this post
Feb 27th 2024
97
                Is there a specific description of his condition available?
Feb 27th 2024
98
                     RE: Is there a specific description of his condition available?
Feb 27th 2024
99
                          Great. Fine.
Feb 27th 2024
100
                               except that isn't what you've been saying
Feb 28th 2024
103
^ per usual.
Feb 27th 2024
68
Our perspectives may not always fully coincide but I value his posts.
Feb 27th 2024
72
Oh noooo, "likeable franchise" cut me to my soul
Feb 27th 2024
73
tough work and he's usually the one to do it
Feb 28th 2024
104
^^^^
Mar 01st 2024
120
revolutionary.
Feb 27th 2024
84
❤️
Mar 01st 2024
126
Lowkey the craziest thing in that video is the cop pointing the gun at
Feb 28th 2024
105
Taking Aaron Bushnell at His Word (and Deed)
Feb 28th 2024
109
*eyes widen*
Feb 28th 2024
110
thanks for posting this.
Feb 29th 2024
112
Wow.
Feb 29th 2024
114
you're free to have it both ways if you want to
Mar 01st 2024
116
its too extreme for most folks. Which is why some suggest its crazy
Mar 01st 2024
118
Can you also share his views after seven hours of suffering...
Mar 01st 2024
121
      how do you know he was suffering?
Mar 01st 2024
122
      burned alive and didn’t die for 7 hours?
Mar 01st 2024
129
           this part.
Mar 01st 2024
130
                Fine. How about 30 seconds into it. Do you think he regret it then?
Mar 01st 2024
131
                     how the fuck do i know?
Mar 01st 2024
132
                     Honestly, the whole time he was conscious he seemed pretty sure of his
Mar 01st 2024
134
                          exactly. he seemed pretty convicted in his thoughts...
Mar 01st 2024
135
                               So the fact that he commited suicide is evidence he had no regret once
Mar 01st 2024
138
                                    you made zero points. congrats.
Mar 01st 2024
139
                                    I’ve always felt like folks who attempted suicides that didn’t work
Mar 01st 2024
142
                                    wtf. All we have are his words and actions. You are the one suggesting
Mar 04th 2024
151
      honestly, what?
Mar 01st 2024
124
      smh
Mar 01st 2024
125
      It's disgusting because it's the part you don't want to think about.
Mar 01st 2024
128
           Nah I can think about it
Mar 01st 2024
136
                My response is 100% based on his experience while actually being alit.
Mar 01st 2024
137
                     You cherry picking
Mar 01st 2024
140
      da fuq
Mar 01st 2024
133
I had to sit on this because I didn’t want my anger to cloud my respon...
Mar 01st 2024
115
Congrats on staying dry I do agree it lends to energy and clarity
Mar 01st 2024
123
Just a couple of quick points. I promise not to long.
Mar 01st 2024
127
When is suicide not pointless?
Mar 01st 2024
141
I don't usually have the energy for this but
Mar 02nd 2024
143
uh
Mar 02nd 2024
145
I wrote a long response and realized it was a waste. I'll keep it simple...
Mar 03rd 2024
149
I 99.9999% agree, except ...
Mar 03rd 2024
147
Yes, I reluctantly agree.
Mar 03rd 2024
148
My primary interest is not doing this
Mar 04th 2024
150
      I agree it's a political act.
Mar 04th 2024
152
he was better off taking shahadah
Mar 07th 2024
155
For a slight dive into the history of self immolation
Mar 10th 2024
157
Palestinian town of Jericho names street after US soldier who set himsel...
Mar 11th 2024
158
to me, this is better than what he was being used for
Mar 23rd 2024
159
It's just a suicide. People want it to be more, but it isn't.
Mar 24th 2024
160
Thanks man.
Mar 25th 2024
161
      you're so funny.
Mar 25th 2024
162
           I'm not touching any parts of that post
Mar 25th 2024
163
Man sets himself on fire outside Trump trial courthouse.
Apr 19th 2024
164
LOL came to post this new immolation drop
Apr 19th 2024
165
      RE: LOL came to post this new immolation drop
Apr 19th 2024
166

legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
79560 posts
Mon Feb-26-24 12:38 PM

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1. "wow.. is this brave or crazy? "
In response to Reply # 0


          

or both?

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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JayEmm
Member since Feb 06th 2004
3291 posts
Mon Feb-26-24 01:07 PM

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2. "This is not a logical response to world events."
In response to Reply # 1


  

          

I believe it’s critical that the entire world knows our country isn’t a monolith and our government isn’t speaking for the people. I also think there is very little to interpret on this point: this man felt that he had no options left because of cognitive distortions as a result of mental illness. We should not celebrate a mentally ill person committing suicide, period.

The entire video can be easily found online. It's not gory but it also doesn't need to be linked here. The reason I mention it is because on his walk to the embassy he gives a final statement. It's jarring how matter-of-fact his tone and demeanor are in those last moments.

  

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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
79560 posts
Tue Feb-27-24 10:07 AM

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37. "I can protest or speak on war.. "
In response to Reply # 2


          

but lighting myself on fire over it is too far.

Hell, go over to Gaza and fight with them but killing yourself as a protest seems a bit much.

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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BrooklynWHAT
Member since Jun 15th 2007
85057 posts
Mon Feb-26-24 01:22 PM

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3. "no its just mental illness"
In response to Reply # 1


  

          

<--- Big Baller World Order

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
Charter member
49394 posts
Mon Feb-26-24 01:45 PM

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4. "^^^^^"
In response to Reply # 3


  

          

Not to be celebrated, thought of as profound reflection of the world, or judged too harshly.



**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

  

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Amritsar
Member since Jan 18th 2008
32093 posts
Mon Feb-26-24 04:39 PM

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11. "Yep"
In response to Reply # 3


  

          

Would be interested to see what his feed looked like too

Some popular newly minted foreign policy correspondent bros may have blood on their hands

  

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sevencents
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1853 posts
Mon Feb-26-24 04:48 PM

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12. "his last social media post"
In response to Reply # 11


          


"Many of us like to ask ourselves, 'What would I do if I was alive during slavery? Or the Jim Crow South? Or apartheid? What would I do if my country was committing genocide?' The answer is, you're doing it. Right now."


welcome to 2024, where having empathy is mental ilness

  

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JayEmm
Member since Feb 06th 2004
3291 posts
Mon Feb-26-24 04:57 PM

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13. "It doesn't have to be either/or."
In response to Reply # 12


  

          

>welcome to 2024, where having empathy is mental ilness

I believe he had genuine convictions and I don't intend to be dismissive towards those beliefs. I also don't mean to be unempathetic when using mental illness as motive here. But I do believe that self-immolation is self-harm, which is a form of mental illness whether the cause is just or not.

And there's still so much we don't know about the relationship between mental illnesses and the online cultures of extremist beliefs.

  

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Amritsar
Member since Jan 18th 2008
32093 posts
Mon Feb-26-24 05:18 PM

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14. "I meant I want to see where he was getting his information"
In response to Reply # 12


  

          

We all have our own curated feed now. And there’s an online media climate of “journalists” learning about these deadly serious world conflicts along side their Audience.

Before Ukraine it was entirely domestic politics, and domestic politics only, with this crowd


>
>
>welcome to 2024, where having empathy is mental ilness


I think it’s more so the act of burning yourself alive. Glad he chose not to hurt other people because it could have gone that way

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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Mon Feb-26-24 07:29 PM

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19. "I think you trying to frame this as an act of empathy is dangerous"
In response to Reply # 12


  

          

and misguided.

A lot of people kill themselves every day because of their convictions.

It's an unhealthy for everyone if you try to get into the business of deciding which convictions are worth taking your own life for.

Like would think it admirable if someone killed themselves in the name of PETA?

Of if someone killed themselves to convince an ex that they really loved them?


I think you are being mad irresponsible trying to legitimize this.



**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

  

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Walleye
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Mon Feb-26-24 07:37 PM

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20. "Explain why this is illegitimate"
In response to Reply # 19
Mon Feb-26-24 07:39 PM by Walleye

          

Or, I guess, what's at stake for us finding a protest illegitimate. Should we not listen to him? Is there not a genocide occurring in Gaza? Is it not happening with material US support?

He's not the only person to self-immolate as political protest. Are they all crazy and dangerous?

______________________________

"Walleye, a lot of things are going to go wrong in your life that technically aren't your fault. Always remember that this doesn't make you any less of an idiot"

--Walleye's Dad

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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Tue Feb-27-24 10:22 AM

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39. "I didn't say a protest is illegitimate. I said this form of protest. "
In response to Reply # 20


  

          

>Or, I guess, what's at stake for us finding a protest
>illegitimate. Should we not listen to him? Is there not a
>genocide occurring in Gaza? Is it not happening with material
>US support?


Let's see if we can agree on some fundamentals.

1. Not all forms of protests are legitimate even if the cause is just.

Do you agree with this generally or do you think, for example, killing innocent civilians is a legitimate for of protest at times?


I had another fundamental when I was in the showering thinking about this but forgot it on the way to work.




>
>He's not the only person to self-immolate as political
>protest. Are they all crazy and dangerous?
>


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

  

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Walleye
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Tue Feb-27-24 11:38 AM

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42. "Yes you did"
In response to Reply # 39


          

If you say "you're trying to legitimize it" then what other meaning should I assume besides that you think it's illegitimate?

>1. Not all forms of protests are legitimate even if the cause
>is just.

I think the category of "legitimate" and "illegitimate" protest is incoherent, morally and historically. People will protest against existing social and political orders. It simply *is*.

And you haven't added any clear contours to the concept of illegitimacy to make me think otherwise. Since you're the one in here scolding people for trying to "legitimize" his protest, it feels like it's sort of on you to define your terms.

>Do you agree with this generally or do you think, for example,
>killing innocent civilians is a legitimate for of protest at
>times?

I think murder is gravely immoral and nobody should do it. What are you even asking? This is why I wanted you to clarify what the stakes of an illegitimate vs. legitimate protest are, since you seem to have a clear idea of what that means.

______________________________

"Walleye, a lot of things are going to go wrong in your life that technically aren't your fault. Always remember that this doesn't make you any less of an idiot"

--Walleye's Dad

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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Tue Feb-27-24 05:41 PM

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82. "I'll clarify using your language. "
In response to Reply # 42
Tue Feb-27-24 05:46 PM by Buddy_Gilapagos

  

          

When you said "Or, I guess, what's at stake for us finding a protest illegitimate."

and I responded by saying ""I didn't say a protest is illegitimate. I said this form of protest. ""

The only point I was trying to make is that I don't think protesting the Israeli-Hamas Conflict is illegitimate. I am trying to make the point that A FORM of protest of that conflict is illegitimate.

I have no problem with saying a form of protest is illegitimate and wasn't trying to back pedal that. I think there was miscommunication there.

Now I understand that you think the calling protest "legitimate"/ "illegitimate" is incoherent, morally and historically. OK, so I will use some of your language and say that I think self immolation is like murder, in that "nobody should so it". I don't think it's immoral.

Like my very first post on this topic, I think it's not something to be celebrated, thought of as profound reflection of the world, or judged too harshly.

I will say the romanticizing/celebrating that folks are doing here and otherwise online is immoral.

I am headed to a Knicks game and don't have time to dive into why but the top line of my thinking is that in middle of a mental health crisis for young people the world has never seen, it's wreckless, irresponsible dangerous to romanticize/celebrate such a senseless/meaningless loss of life.

It will have no impact on making folks aware of the genocide occurring in Gaza that is happening with material US Support worth the loss of life. With the brutal images already coming out of Gaza, it will not add anything to shock the senses of people.

I will not advocate for any form of protest that I don't want for my own children to take part in and I think it's wreckless/immoral and irresponsible for anybody to do it for someone else's children.


Yall academic musing on a very real problem that we are all facing as a country is fucked up and I feel strongly about that.




T




>If you say "you're trying to legitimize it" then what other
>meaning should I assume besides that you think it's
>illegitimate?
>
>>1. Not all forms of protests are legitimate even if the
>cause
>>is just.
>
>I think the category of "legitimate" and "illegitimate"
>protest is incoherent, morally and historically. People will
>protest against existing social and political orders. It
>simply *is*.
>
>And you haven't added any clear contours to the concept of
>illegitimacy to make me think otherwise. Since you're the one
>in here scolding people for trying to "legitimize" his
>protest, it feels like it's sort of on you to define your
>terms.
>
>>Do you agree with this generally or do you think, for
>example,
>>killing innocent civilians is a legitimate for of protest at
>>times?
>
>I think murder is gravely immoral and nobody should do it.
>What are you even asking? This is why I wanted you to clarify
>what the stakes of an illegitimate vs. legitimate protest are,
>since you seem to have a clear idea of what that means.
>


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

  

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Rjcc
Charter member
94963 posts
Tue Feb-27-24 06:55 PM

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89. "I am not the gatekeeper of empathy, I got three responses"
In response to Reply # 12


          

I believe there are responses people can have that show empathy that do not include setting yourself on fire

I don't know what dude qualifies as because he is not here to answer that question.

I also don't think that anyone who takes their own life does it for only one reason, no matter what that reason is.

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

  

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GOMEZ
Member since Feb 13th 2003
5613 posts
Mon Feb-26-24 04:05 PM

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8. "I don't like assuming he's crazy"
In response to Reply # 1


  

          

that sort of feels like a way of not acknowledging his sacrifice and makes it feel a little better to me for not doing nearly as much to stop our government from funding endless war.

We don't really know his mental state or what went into taking such a drastic step to try and wake people up.

In a generation of swine, the one-eyed pig is king.
-Hunter S. Thompson

  

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sevencents
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10. "Co-sign!!"
In response to Reply # 8


          


calling him 'crazy' or mentally unstable is a good way to be dismissive of his action and what drove him to do it. It also lacks a basic understanding of empathy...empathy into what may have driven him to take such an action...and the empathy that he may have felt for the people of Gaza.

this was his recorded statement he made on video as he walked to the embassy...I haven't seen this part of his speech mentioned in any of the mainstream media reports (for a reason).

"I am about to engage in an extreme act of protest but compared to what people have been experiencing in Palestine at the hands of their colonizers, it's not extreme at all. This is what our ruling class has decided will be normal."


  

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Tiger Woods
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21. "But he was crazy. And he didn’t sacrifice anything."
In response to Reply # 8


  

          

Sacrifice implies some type of heroism or martyrdom.

Only a person who’s mentally unstable would do something like this - not only light yourself on fire but stream it too

Doesn’t mean war is cool. But this dudes not a hero , he’s a nut

  

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GOMEZ
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30. "you're using the act alone to determine whether he was crazy or not"
In response to Reply # 21


  

          

and agree with him or not, he did sacrificed. He sacrificed his life in an attempt to get his message out and wake people up.

In a generation of swine, the one-eyed pig is king.
-Hunter S. Thompson

  

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Mynoriti
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31. "crazy , yes but.. uh a bit of a sacrifice on this part"
In response to Reply # 21


  

          

>Sacrifice implies some type of heroism or martyrdom.

Nah it just means you gave something up for something you deemed more important. Whether he's a hero or a sucker, or an insane person, or made a difference, or did this for nothing may speak to the sanity of it, but it's hard to say he didn't sacrifice anything when he literally sacrificed everything.

  

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Adwhizz
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34. "Not only was he willing to die"
In response to Reply # 31


  

          

but in probably the most brutal way possible.

R.I.P. Loud But Wrong Guy
Dec 29th 2009 - Dec 17th 2017

  

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Rjcc
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44. "there is a question here that can't be answered"
In response to Reply # 34


          


www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

  

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sevencents
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5. "Self-immolation in context"
In response to Reply # 0


          


for the posters calling him 'crazy' or saying it's mental ilness...

read about Thich Quang Duc who set himself on fire to protest the Vietnam war

read about Mohamed Bouazizi, the Tunisian street vendor who set himself on fire and accelerated the rise of the Arab Spring.

for a principled person to commit self-immolation it's a sign that society has become so uncaring and heartless...it's done as a wake up call.








  

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JayEmm
Member since Feb 06th 2004
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6. "Norman Morrison is a more apt comparison."
In response to Reply # 5


  

          

>read about Thich Quang Duc who set himself on fire to protest
>the Vietnam war

That's a slight misinterpretation.

His self-immolation was not in direct protest of the Vietnam war. More specifically, as a member of the Buddhist Revival movement, he was protesting against the persecution of Buddhists by a Roman Catholic leader. His political beliefs were neither pro-North Vietnam nor anti-South Vietnam but instead purely Buddhist, as he was a 65 year-old Monk that was directly affected by it.

The event yesterday was a young American man who was not directly impacted by a complex foreign conflict and was likely radicalized into doing so by online political involvement. As an airman he has zero relation whatsoever to the provision of arms vouchers to Israel or the sale of arms from private contractors. He was primed to believe setting himself on fire was the best use of his life, which is not only sad but likely a result of the radicalization of a mentally unstable individual.

  

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Walleye
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7. "And why was that particular Catholic in charge?"
In response to Reply # 6


          

This isn't context. It's obfuscation.

______________________________

"Walleye, a lot of things are going to go wrong in your life that technically aren't your fault. Always remember that this doesn't make you any less of an idiot"

--Walleye's Dad

  

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JayEmm
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9. "Obfuscation would also be distorting his explicit reason, no?"
In response to Reply # 7


  

          

I understand the series of events that led to it but the inspiration was more precise than just "protesting the Vietnam war".

  

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Walleye
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17. "No, it's just imprecision"
In response to Reply # 9
Mon Feb-26-24 06:58 PM by Walleye

          

It's a valid analogy (so is the Morrison one, though I think the distinction you're drawing is self-serving), and I don't think characterizing Thích Quảng Đức's self-immolation as a religious protest instead of a political one (as though there's a clear, meaningful distinction) makes it incongruent with this one in any way. Or, even if we grant that claim, that incongruence means we shouldn't acknowledge the central moral power of Bushnell's protest. It's also worth pointing out that self-immolation has a pretty healthy historical tradition, particularly in the past sixty one years. Are all of those people mentally ill? Or just the ones making a claim about US complicity in genocide? And if it's just those ones, what about the person in Atlanta who did the same thing in December?

Not too mention, you don't have any evidence that Mr. Bushnell was mentally ill, except that he did something that you can't imagine doing. Or an explanation for the implicit assumption that mentally ill people protesting aren't worth listening to.

______________________________

"Walleye, a lot of things are going to go wrong in your life that technically aren't your fault. Always remember that this doesn't make you any less of an idiot"

--Walleye's Dad

  

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Walleye
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18. "Or, put another way"
In response to Reply # 9


          

Self-immolation in the 20th and 21st century has been done as protest to demonstrate despair and helplessness in the face of (the protester's perception of) immense systemic evil.

If you believe his perception is wrong, say why. And then explain how that misperception is the same thing as mental illness.

______________________________

"Walleye, a lot of things are going to go wrong in your life that technically aren't your fault. Always remember that this doesn't make you any less of an idiot"

--Walleye's Dad

  

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JayEmm
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23. "Fair."
In response to Reply # 18


  

          

None of us in the thread have evidence of his mental well-being beyond the actions we witnessed in the video. What else guides us here is demographic data and retrospective surveys. As I stated in post 13, in its most basic sense, I believe that self-immolation is firmly defined as self-harm, and self-harm (at least in our high-income westernized land) is medically dealt with as a mental health matter.

What we do have confirmation of is Bushnell's involvement in online anarchist movements, and my broad concern (also potentially self-serving) is the impact of online radicalization of today's youth. Past a certain point it doesn't motivate people to action, it just inflicts psychological damage that harms them personally and as activists. Was that the case here? We may never know. But that's why we have forums like this to bullshit about it.

  

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Walleye
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24. "So how about hunger strikes?"
In response to Reply # 23


          

>I believe that self-immolation is firmly defined as self-harm,
>and self-harm (at least in our high-income westernized land)
>is medically dealt with as a mental health matter.

And as a follow-up, are mentally ill people not capable of making political protests? Even if we grant your (without evidence, as you concede) internet diagnosis of this man - does that mean that the point he's making about US complicity in the Gaza genocide shouldn't be heard?

"Free Palestine" are two clear words, ordered toward a clear meaning. Is that nonsensical when somebody who does the wrong kind of protest says it?

______________________________

"Walleye, a lot of things are going to go wrong in your life that technically aren't your fault. Always remember that this doesn't make you any less of an idiot"

--Walleye's Dad

  

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JayEmm
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27. "Sure. Self-harm comes in many forms."
In response to Reply # 24


  

          

I'm not interested in running through the catalog.

"And as a follow-up, are mentally ill people not capable of making political protests? Even if we grant your (without evidence, as you concede) internet diagnosis of this man - does that mean that the point he's making about US complicity in the Gaza genocide shouldn't be heard?"

- The point he's making would be far better heard if he was still alive to make it. Maybe he could even spread that point far beyond his twitch following, and as an active member of the armed services, the public may've found more gravity to his words. But now we'll never know because he's dead. His protest is over. And sadly, similar to the still-unnamed protestor from Atlanta, his message will fall outside of the public dopamine machine in a matter of days.

  

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Walleye
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35. "I think you're avoiding the question"
In response to Reply # 27


          

I noticed you did this in the South Africa/ICJ post as well, talking about South Africa's relationship with Russia rather than the substance of their argument.

So how about the hundreds of thousands of peaceful people who've taken to the streets in protest of the ongoing genocide in Gaza. What are they doing wrong? How are you going to disqualify them? Because so far it seems like your willingness to engage this central issue is only in batting away forms of protest and even legal challenges based on international law. I can't tell if this is an ideologically-based obfuscation on your part or just a typically liberal obsessions with procedure.

So here's a chance to clear that up. What would a legitimate, acceptable international mass-movement for a free Palestine look like, to you?

______________________________

"Walleye, a lot of things are going to go wrong in your life that technically aren't your fault. Always remember that this doesn't make you any less of an idiot"

--Walleye's Dad

  

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JayEmm
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41. "No, you've just drifted away from the topic."
In response to Reply # 35


  

          

What activated my interest in the conversation is the question of the man's mental health. I'm also curious about his path to radicalization and the relationship between the two.

Now you're making accusations of subversion because I think calling out injustice by setting oneself on fire is a sign of greater issue. Our opinions on WHAT he's protesting are likely parallel. It's the extreme form of protest that I find reckless.

  

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Walleye
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43. "I don't agree that's the only topic"
In response to Reply # 41


          

The initial post was about the action itself. The act, its motivation, its outcomes (present and speculative) all seem perfectly on topic.

>I'm also curious about
>his path to radicalization and the relationship between the
>two.

This is transparently ideological, so I can just skip ahead to the resolution for you: you'll define radical politics and "reckless" politics according to your present political beliefs and will unsurprisingly discover a self-buttressing cycle. All the people who believe the wrong things are protesting the wrong way. All the protests that are happening the wrong way reveal dangerously radical underpinnings.

______________________________

"Walleye, a lot of things are going to go wrong in your life that technically aren't your fault. Always remember that this doesn't make you any less of an idiot"

--Walleye's Dad

  

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Tiger Woods
Member since Feb 15th 2004
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22. "More eloquent a response than was deserved but thank you for it anyway"
In response to Reply # 6


  

          


>
>The event yesterday was a young American man who was not
>directly impacted by a complex foreign conflict and was likely
>radicalized into doing so by online political involvement. As
>an airman he has zero relation whatsoever to the provision of
>arms vouchers to Israel or the sale of arms from private
>contractors. He was primed to believe setting himself on fire
>was the best use of his life, which is not only sad but likely
>a result of the radicalization of a mentally unstable
>individual.
>

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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16. "Were the folks who killed themselves in Jonestown crazy?"
In response to Reply # 5


  

          

Or the Heaven's Gate or other cultist who killed themselves crazy?

Is there any difference between what the people I mentioned and this man did?

Yall wreckless trying to ennoble suicide.



>
>for the posters calling him 'crazy' or saying it's mental
>ilness...
>
>read about Thich Quang Duc who set himself on fire to protest
>the Vietnam war
>
>read about Mohamed Bouazizi, the Tunisian street vendor who
>set himself on fire and accelerated the rise of the Arab
>Spring.
>
>for a principled person to commit self-immolation it's a sign
>that society has become so uncaring and heartless...it's done
>as a wake up call.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

  

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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
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36. "Is a gang banger crazy for dying over his block or gang affiliation? "
In response to Reply # 16


          

Depends on who you ask.

Crazy to go over seas and die for America in a foreign country?

It all seems crazy but there will always be people who see it as brave or noble to die for their God.

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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Mynoriti
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47. "being in a gang or the army/combat isn't suicidal though"
In response to Reply # 36


  

          

They may be willing to die for the cause but they're generally not trying to die

  

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legsdiamond
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50. "its suicidal to get into a shootout over a tag"
In response to Reply # 47


          

or some “online beef”

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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Mynoriti
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53. "but their intent is not to die"
In response to Reply # 50


  

          

I guess I should have distinguished suicide vs suicidal. 'sucidal' is used by people for anything from extremely high risk behavior to intentionally wanting to die.

what this man did had no grey area

  

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legsdiamond
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64. "Are we really sure their intent is not to die? "
In response to Reply # 53


          

How many times have kids said they didn’t expect to see 21 due to gang culture?

How many adults have said “that boy aint gonna live to see tomorrow” based on the way they operated.

kids with a “death wish” simply because they always choose to run towards violence instead of away from it.

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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Mynoriti
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69. "generally, yes"
In response to Reply # 64


  

          

some are more reckless, some dgaf, but generally most gang members aint *trying* to die, just the same way most gang members aren't killers

and none of them are like let me go get killed today to make a statement

  

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legsdiamond
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75. "to be clear, I asked if a gang banger WHO DIED over a color is crazy"
In response to Reply # 69


          

I didn’t ask of all gang bangers are crazy

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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Mynoriti
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78. "and that's not suicide"
In response to Reply # 75
Tue Feb-27-24 05:11 PM by Mynoriti

  

          

crazy? Maybe idk

  

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legsdiamond
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85. "I didn’t ask if it was suicide. "
In response to Reply # 78


          

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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81. "THis is just lazy thinking. The internet will give you supporters/belie..."
In response to Reply # 36


  

          

of any asinine position that anyone can think of.

The question is what would reasonable people think and should believe (and yes that's a value judgement but that's better than this moral relativism).




RE: Is a gang banger crazy for dying over his block or gang affiliation?

>Depends on who you ask.
>
>Crazy to go over seas and die for America in a foreign
>country?
>
>It all seems crazy but there will always be people who see it
>as brave or noble to die for their God.
>
>


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

  

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Amritsar
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92. "Tankies are close to championing suicide bombers "
In response to Reply # 16


  

          

Here and elsewhere

  

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3CardMolly
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15. "sad and couldve been much worse"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

But if we have a govt that continues to ignore the people, dismissive of mental illness and continues to bombard a nation with propaganda news, what can you expect?

RIP to him.

  

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Amritsar
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32. "As in, he could have been a mass shooter ?"
In response to Reply # 15


  

          

Absolutely. Glad no one else was hurt

  

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3CardMolly
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59. "Yep"
In response to Reply # 32


  

          

  

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kinetic94761180
Member since Jul 05th 2002
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25. "that’s hardcore."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

_____________
if racism is a cancer, black thought is the answer.

Rjcc is code for "bitch-ass troll"

DROkayplayer™

  

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sevencents
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26. "Revolutionary Suicide by Huey P Newton"
In response to Reply # 0


          



"revolutionary suicide does not mean that i and my comrades have a death wish; it means just the opposite. we have such a strong desire to live with hope and human dignity that existence without them is impossible. when reactionary forces crush us, we must move against these forces, even at the risk of death."



  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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38. "And yet, Huey P Newton never committed suicide. "
In response to Reply # 26


  

          

and I never read the book but I don't think anyone has ever tried to argue that Huey P. Newton was advocating for mass suicide as a form of protest. Instead, as the quote you provided suggests, and is consistent with his other talk, HPN is advocating that Black People be willing to fight for the death for justice (What ya think all the guns is for? (c) Biggie).

Now the interesting thing about the term "Revolutionary Suicide" is that is the exact term that Jim Jones used to describe the mass death's at Jonestown.

Now again, do you think what happened at Jonestown was crazy?

>
>
>"revolutionary suicide does not mean that i and my comrades
>have a death wish; it means just the opposite. we have such a
>strong desire to live with hope and human dignity that
>existence without them is impossible. when reactionary forces
>crush us, we must move against these forces, even at the risk
>of death."
>
>
>
>


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

  

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sevencents
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40. "making disingenuous points seems to be a hobby of yours"
In response to Reply # 38


          

are you really trying to put self-immolation as a form of political protest in the same category as Jonestown?

I guess it's not surprising coming from someone who enjoyed Dianne Feinstein patronizing young kids who came to her office about the climate crisis...says quite a lot about either your cognitive thinking or values.



  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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80. "Not disingenuous at all. I 100% believe there is no difference. "
In response to Reply # 40
Tue Feb-27-24 05:43 PM by Buddy_Gilapagos

  

          

I think you are being intellectually dishonest if you can't take the time to explain the difference.

You come in here and cite Huey P Newton and his concept of Revolutionary Suicide, and I bring up the only people who actually used the term "Revolutionary Suicide" in connection with their suicide, and I am being disingenuous?!?!

GTFOHWTBS.





>are you really trying to put self-immolation as a form of
>political protest in the same category as Jonestown?
>
>I guess it's not surprising coming from someone who enjoyed
>Dianne Feinstein patronizing young kids who came to her office
>about the climate crisis...says quite a lot about either your
>cognitive thinking or values.
>
>
>
>


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

  

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sevencents
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83. "okay, apologies "
In response to Reply # 80


          



Jonestown was a mass suicide/massacre based within a cult where many people were held captive against their will.

Aaron Bushnell was protesting an active genocide that is taking place and is fully supported by US tax dollars and policy. He was also enlisted in the air force and quite possibly being called up to provide support to IDF in some capacity, which is why he made the statement that he'd refuse to be complicit.


maybe that's just me, but I think thats a HUGE fucking difference



  

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40thStreetBlack
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102. "As Walleye mentioned, what about hunger strikes?"
In response to Reply # 80
Wed Feb-28-24 03:37 AM by 40thStreetBlack

          

Huey Newton's concept of revolutionary suicide is of course misplaced here. But that doesn't mean all acts of suicide as a political protest are no different from literal drink the poison kool-aid suicide cults like Jonestown / Heaven's Gate.

___________________

Mar-A-Lago delenda est

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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106. "Fam you can change your mind about a hunger strike. "
In response to Reply # 102


  

          

You don't need me to tell you that death is permanent.

Let me ask you this, do you think in the SEVEN HOURS that this kid lived after he set himself on fire he may have thought, "you know what, maybe I shouldn't have done this?"


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

  

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seasoned vet
Member since Jul 29th 2008
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28. "what a fkn dummy"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

  

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Mynoriti
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29. "people are really like "I can't speak on this man's mental health state""
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

  

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Lurkmode
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33. "What"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          



Comparing this to cults ? smh

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shygurl
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45. "grew up on a religious compound, was an anarchist."
In response to Reply # 0


          

https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md-va/2024/02/26/israeli-embassy-airman-fire-death-gaza/

__________________________________________

I hope you live a life you’re proud of. If you find that you’re not, I hope you have the strength to start all over again.

— F. Scott Fitzgerald

  

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sevencents
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46. "you don't say???"
In response to Reply # 45


          


Washington Post and NYT, which has shown complicit bias in their pro-Israel reporting is framing the narrative to dismiss Aaron Bushnell and invalidate his message?

wow.


based on a lot of the comments here, seems like the manufactured consent from the professional managerial class is working quite well.



  

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shygurl
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51. "*rolls eyes*"
In response to Reply # 46


          

Stop it.

__________________________________________

I hope you live a life you’re proud of. If you find that you’re not, I hope you have the strength to start all over again.

— F. Scott Fitzgerald

  

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legsdiamond
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54. "lol"
In response to Reply # 51


          

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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Walleye
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60. "I can't imagine the New York Times doing anything like that"
In response to Reply # 46


          

https://www.nytimes.com/2002/09/08/world/threats-responses-iraqis-us-says-hussein-intensifies-quest-for-bomb-parts.html

U.S. Says Hussein Intensifies Quest for A-Bomb Parts
By MICHAEL R. GORDON and JUDITH MILLER
Published: September 8, 2002

WASHINGTON, Sept. 7 — More than a decade after Saddam Hussein agreed to give up weapons of mass destruction, Iraq has stepped up its quest for nuclear weapons and has embarked on a worldwide hunt for materials to make an atomic bomb, Bush administration officials said today.

In the last 14 months, Iraq has sought to buy thousands of specially designed aluminum tubes, which American officials believe were intended as components of centrifuges to enrich uranium. American officials said several efforts to arrange the shipment of the aluminum tubes were blocked or intercepted but declined to say, citing the sensitivity of the intelligence, where they came from or how they were stopped.

The diameter, thickness and other technical specifications of the aluminum tubes had persuaded American intelligence experts that they were meant for Iraq's nuclear program, officials said, and that the latest attempt to ship the material had taken place in recent months.

The attempted purchases are not the only signs of a renewed Iraqi interest in acquiring nuclear arms. President Hussein has met repeatedly in recent months with Iraq's top nuclear scientists and, according to American intelligence, praised their efforts as part of his campaign against the West.

Iraqi defectors who once worked for the nuclear weapons establishment have told American officials that acquiring nuclear arms is again a top Iraqi priority. American intelligence agencies are also monitoring construction at nuclear sites.

While there is no indication that Iraq is on the verge of deploying a nuclear bomb, Iraq's pursuit of nuclear weapons has been cited by hard-liners in the Bush administration to make the argument that the United States must act now, before Mr. Hussein acquires nuclear arms and thus alters the strategic balance in the oil-rich Persian Gulf. Prime Minister Tony Blair of Britain met with President Bush today to reaffirm his nation's support for action against Iraq.

Iraq's nuclear program is not Washington's only concern. An Iraqi defector said Mr. Hussein had also heightened his efforts to develop new types of chemical weapons. An Iraqi opposition leader also gave American officials a paper from Iranian intelligence indicating that Mr. Hussein has authorized regional commanders to use chemical and biological weapons to put down any Shiite Muslim resistance that might occur if the United States attacks.

The paper, which is being analyzed by American officials, was provided by Abdalaziz al-Hakim of the Supreme Council of the Islamic Revolution in Iraq, an Iran-based group, during his recent visit with other Iraqi opposition leaders in Washington.

Much of the administration's case, however, revolves around Iraq's attempts to develop nuclear weapons and assessments of the pace of the efforts. In the unfolding debate, administration hard-liners argue that possession of nuclear arms would enhance Iraq's sway in the region.

Administration officials also assert that the acquisition of nuclear arms might embolden Mr. Hussein and increase the chances that he might use chemical or biological weapons. The officials contend that Mr. Hussein refrained from using chemical and germ weapons during the 1991 Persian Gulf war because he feared a devastating retaliatory blow from the United States and that he might now conclude that the Americans would not dare strike him if he had nuclear weapons.

"The jewel in the crown is nuclear," a senior administration official said. "The closer he gets to a nuclear capability, the more credible is his threat to use chemical or biological weapons. Nuclear weapons are his hole card."

"The question is not, why now?" the official added, referring to a potential military campaign to oust Mr. Hussein. "The question is why waiting is better. The closer Saddam Hussein gets to a nuclear weapon, the harder he will be to deal with."

On the Brink of War

Hard-liners are alarmed that American intelligence underestimated the pace and scale of Iraq's nuclear program before Baghdad's defeat in the gulf war. Conscious of this lapse in the past, they argue that Washington dare not wait until analysts have found hard evidence that Mr. Hussein has acquired a nuclear weapon. The first sign of a "smoking gun," they argue, may be a mushroom cloud.

Still, even though hard-liners complain that intelligence about Iraq's program is often spotty, they plan to declassify some of it to make their case in coming weeks. The administration briefed members of Congress on Iraq's programs to develop weapons of mass destruction this week, but it is not known to what extent officials talked about the intercepted shipments. Given the special intelligence-sharing relationship with Britain, the information on the attempted purchases Mr. Blair plans to release in a few weeks.

The administration's critics assert that the last decade has shown that Mr. Hussein can be contained through a combination of United Nations sanctions, carefully designed inspections and, if Iraq refused to admit the monitors, targeted air strikes. Iraq, the critics say, remains heavily dependent on external assistance to advance its nuclear program. Washington, the critics say, has time to try its hand at diplomacy and should enlist United Nations backing to force Mr. Hussein to accept inspectors back. Taken in its totality, the critics insist that the intelligence suggests there is no rush to take military action.

______________________________

"Walleye, a lot of things are going to go wrong in your life that technically aren't your fault. Always remember that this doesn't make you any less of an idiot"

--Walleye's Dad

  

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Amritsar
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90. "Now back to the actual topic …."
In response to Reply # 60


  

          

He grew up on a compound and was an anarchist


Your article from 2002 doesn’t refute this. lol

  

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shygurl
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107. "I'm saying lol"
In response to Reply # 90


          

I suppose if I posted an article from RT they wouldn't have a problem with it.

__________________________________________

I hope you live a life you’re proud of. If you find that you’re not, I hope you have the strength to start all over again.

— F. Scott Fitzgerald

  

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makaveli
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156. "lol"
In response to Reply # 107
Thu Mar-07-24 02:26 PM by makaveli

  

          

2002.

“So back we go to these questions — friendship, character… ethics.”

  

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3CardMolly
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61. "Points noted"
In response to Reply # 46


  

          

Despite knowing and admitting how bias both papers are, we still bother using them as a reliable source. Makes no sense at all.

  

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sevencents
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48. "Ben Shapiro is on Okayplayer??"
In response to Reply # 0


          


hitting the exact same talking points as a lot of people on here.

https://x.com/benshapiro/status/1762243707900694898?s=20

  

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JayEmm
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49. "It's okay to have nuanced and multi-faceted viewpoints on issues."
In response to Reply # 48


  

          

Maybe to some, being clear-cut is appealing because it feels more morally righteous than to have a complex viewpoint that might not make us feel as good. It's more tempting to be simple and radical. It’s all or nothing, and impartiality is immediately shunned.

Combine this with how social media is designed to be addictive and to create echo chambers, and it creates a dangerous situation where group cohesiveness is valued above what others may consider truth and logic.

  

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legsdiamond
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52. "didnt do a deep dive but word is Bunshell had some reddit accounts"
In response to Reply # 49


          

that showed his change in views over a 5 year span.

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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Mynoriti
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56. "^^"
In response to Reply # 49


  

          

>Maybe to some, being clear-cut is appealing because it feels
>more morally righteous than to have a complex viewpoint that
>might not make us feel as good. It's more tempting to be
>simple and radical. It’s all or nothing, and impartiality is
>immediately shunned.
>
>Combine this with how social media is designed to be addictive
>and to create echo chambers, and it creates a dangerous
>situation where group cohesiveness is valued above what others
>may consider truth and logic.
>

  

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makaveli
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58. "yes"
In response to Reply # 49


  

          

“So back we go to these questions — friendship, character… ethics.”

  

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Amritsar
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88. "💯"
In response to Reply # 49


  

          

We are seeing the effects of these echo chambers created from social media, especially tik tok, on our streets right now.

Beijing has their thumb on the scale of the 18-24 year old demographic. And it’s scary to see where this goes.

  

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Lurkmode
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55. "Damn"
In response to Reply # 48


  

          



"a non-existent genocide"


Yep this board has a problem.

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sevencents
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57. "for real"
In response to Reply # 55


          


>Yep this board has a problem.

I posted a 'Free Palestine' video by Lowkey and the post was deleted and my account was suspended for several days...folks seem to get more upset of how people bring up the genocide than the actual genocide.

this problem extends beyond the boards...there has been a fundamental shift to more right-wing conservative views.

when a moderate centrist like Biden becomes the face of the 'liberal resistance' it shows the direction this country is headed in...and it aint pretty.

  

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Lurkmode
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62. "True"
In response to Reply # 57


  

          

>
>>Yep this board has a problem.
>
>I posted a 'Free Palestine' video by Lowkey and the post was
>deleted and my account was suspended for several days..

What ?

.folks
>seem to get more upset of how people bring up the genocide
>than the actual genocide.


Exactly


>this problem extends beyond the boards...there has been a
>fundamental shift to more right-wing conservative views.
>

I agree

>when a moderate centrist like Biden becomes the face of the
>'liberal resistance' it shows the direction this country is
>headed in...and it aint pretty.
>
>

Yep doing that and trying to pass it off as moderate centrist.

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3CardMolly
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63. "Thats a damn shame"
In response to Reply # 57


  

          

I’d been away from here for a long while til a few months ago, but its very different as far as the conversations go. Folks posting extra, using lots of semantics vs getting to the point and doing their best to sound neutral and ruffle feathers.

But lets be real, if anyone is rooting for Israel or blind eyeing themselves to the bullshit, then you aint shit and a big ass hypocrite. I notice many come out the woodworks with similar post.

  

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Stadiq
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67. "its all team sports politics"
In response to Reply # 57


          


If this happened under Trump (or any GOP), the discussion in here would be much different. On Palestine. On the protest. Literally everything.

I think sometimes its on purpose, but I think more and more that people don't even realize how their team sports agenda impacts their response to things.

Some of the responses in here are very disappointing and outright disgusting.

A lot people really do just want Pride flags on the bombs and they're good. That meme is real af.

  

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Rjcc
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86. "question"
In response to Reply # 67


          

do you have a good understanding of how your team sports agenda impacts your response to things?

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

  

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legsdiamond
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77. "chances the mod who deleted and banned you was a squatter"
In response to Reply # 57


          

who abused OKP women

99.9%

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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Rjcc
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93. "who are you quoting?"
In response to Reply # 55


          


www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

  

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Lurkmode
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108. "Ben Shapiro"
In response to Reply # 93


  

          



https://x.com/benshapiro/status/1762243707900694898?s=20

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Rjcc
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111. "ok how is a quote from ben shapiro an example of this board having a pro..."
In response to Reply # 108


          

i'm lost

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

  

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Lurkmode
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113. "I never said the quote I used was an example of the board's problem"
In response to Reply # 111


  

          



My damn in the title was for the quote.

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Rjcc
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117. "those are the only things in the post brother"
In response to Reply # 113


          

is there any other context you can add?

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

  

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Lurkmode
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119. "I was replying to the op in 48"
In response to Reply # 117


  

          



so I didn't quote him. He made the point, post and added the link. Given that a quote from the op was not included.


sevencents
Charter member
1851 posts Tue Feb-27-24 01:29 PM


48. "Ben Shapiro is on Okayplayer??"
In response to Reply # 0




"hitting the exact same talking points as a lot of people on here."

^^^^^ yep the board has a problem was for that, and this from the link

"Call me controversial, but I think that as a general rule, you should not cheer on disturbed anarchists burning themselves to death..."






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Rjcc
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144. "if your point was to add the missing information"
In response to Reply # 119


          

why only quote a tiny part of it?

it seems like it would be good to include the whole thing

these are all choices, I just don't know what you're comparing it to here

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

  

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Lurkmode
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146. "My point was to add context because you asked"
In response to Reply # 144


  

          

your words

"is there any other context you can add?" - you

>these are all choices, I just don't know what you're comparing
>it to here
>

I'm comparing

"Call me controversial, but I think that as a general rule, you should not cheer on disturbed anarchists burning themselves to death..." - BS

to


" We should not celebrate a mentally ill person committing suicide, period."

"Not to be celebrated"

"I think you are being mad irresponsible trying to legitimize this."

"Only a person who’s mentally unstable would do something like this - not only light yourself on fire but stream it too

Doesn’t mean war is cool. But this dudes not a hero , he’s a nut"

"Yall wreckless trying to ennoble suicide."


"Tankies are close to championing suicide bombers"



That's why I said the board has a problem.

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Rjcc
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153. "cool. those statements are all extremely different based on that little ..."
In response to Reply # 146


          


www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

  

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Lurkmode
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154. "I never said it was the same"
In response to Reply # 153


  

          

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Hitokiri
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65. "MVP Walleye"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

--

"You can't beat white people. You can only knock them out."

  

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Walleye
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66. "I genuinely don't understand what's happening in this post"
In response to Reply # 65


          

My perspective on this seems pretty straightforward, but maybe that's on me for not being clear:

If somebody finds the act of self-immolation abhorrent, which is reasonable, that is still not sufficient reason to discount his political motivation. He articulated that clearly and, furthermore, was also pretty clear that he feels implicated by US support for the genocide in Gaza.

I wouldn't require anybody to accept any of those things, though I'm happy to argue that they should since I believe that is the case. Self-immolation has a long history of political protest that has accelerated in popularity since 1963, and has been used in a variety of ways to express despair and helplessness at an impossible political order. Sometimes I agree with the view that's being expressed (this case, the aforementioned incident in 1963, etc.); sometimes I don't (a pair of Israeli settlers did it to protest disengagement from Gaza in the mid-2000s); and sometimes I'm ambivalent (it was borderline common in Eastern Bloc states as protest against the USSR) but it feels both uncharitable and incurious to simply wave the action away as the work of mental illness.

There is a habit that seems common in good liberals where they are skilled at making the right broad affirmation but never seem quite willing to accept the political urgency of the moment. That's obviously their right, but it serves a parallel purpose of disqualifying arguments without dealing with their substance. You can think that Aaron Bushnell is crazy *and* that he's right. Etc. But the way it plays out is that every war is bad, except the current war which is necessary. Every past protest that succeeded was done the right way, but the current one that hasn't succeeded is bad and done the wrong way.

History won't stop coming though, so they'll get it eventually. Fukuyama is wrong every day.

______________________________

"Walleye, a lot of things are going to go wrong in your life that technically aren't your fault. Always remember that this doesn't make you any less of an idiot"

--Walleye's Dad

  

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Stadiq
Member since Dec 21st 2005
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70. "which is why I'm always amazed at your patience"
In response to Reply # 66


          


and willingness to go back and forth with these people.

Everything you've said is perfectly reasonable, accurate, and measured.

"good liberals where they are skilled at making the right broad affirmation but never seem quite willing to accept the political urgency of the moment. That's obviously their right, but it serves a parallel purpose of disqualifying arguments without dealing with their substance. You can think that Aaron Bushnell is crazy *and* that he's right. Etc. But the way it plays out is that every war is bad, except the current war which is necessary. Every past protest that succeeded was done the right way, but the current one that hasn't succeeded is bad and done the wrong way."


^^^ This is spot on...and I guarantee the urgency/validity/etc would be completely different if their team wasn't currently in charge.

If this were Trump, this war would be bad. America's unconditional support of this war would be bad. The protests would be appropriate. And while there would probably be questions of this man's mental health, it would be in a much more compassionate way...rather than just dismissing/shitting on poor dude.

Some of these replies are just...fucking awful.

  

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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
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74. "some folks won’t acknowledge its politics as usual"
In response to Reply # 70


          

if Trump was president the super liberals would definitely protest louder, because they want to get Trump out of the WH.

Not sure why some of you point that out like its a gotcha moment.





****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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Walleye
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76. "Thank you, that's really kind"
In response to Reply # 70


          

Way, way back when I first started posting here in 99-00, I mostly hung around the activist board. Usually lurking, but occasionally being a brat to people who actually wanted to *do* things in the world. One time, I made some kind of off-handed nonsensical remark about a boycott of Nike because of their labor practices, and some poster (who obviously thought I was an asshole but sucked it up and talked to me anyhow) talked me through point-by-point about how different types of protests were meant to work, what they were meant to work for, what their limitations were, etc. I forgot everything he said and didn't actually internalize the broader lesson of making a small effort not to be a dick about politics for another twenty years, but now that I'm old and tired, I'm incredibly grateful to that person for taking five minutes to explain where he was coming from and meet me where I was at, even if I didn't deserve it.

>If this were Trump, this war would be bad. America's
>unconditional support of this war would be bad. The protests
>would be appropriate.

This feels correct to me but I still feel really uncomfortable saying it, much less gaming it out. Not the least because if you say it, some bad faith actor is going to accuse you of rooting for that.

But we can see an ongoing narrative emerging where some Arab Americans are saying explicitly that they're done with Biden on this issue - and the response they get is "good luck with Trump then."

Which, yeah, good luck with Trump, indeed. But:

a)for a group that spends so much time wringing its hands on the wrong way to build coalitions, "fuck off and let the fascists have you" doesn't really seem like skilled politicking.

b)If liberals had their back in 2017 by occupying airports (acts of genuine heroism, incidentally - good job, libs) during the Muslim ban, then maybe the only situation that they can imagine liberals acting with that kind of solidarity again is to do it against Trump. Seems bananas to put in writing, but it doesn't seem wrong.

I don't know. They can speak for themselves on this. But on a broader level it's not hard to see liberals losing the grip on this and trying to shut down conversation because their usual moves aren't applicable. Ordinarily, you criticize Biden for not doing something and you're met with "well, the President isn't a wizard who can just do whatever he wants" except that when it comes to supporting and/or persecuting a war, he kind of can. And is, as he's explicitly bypassed congress on providing arms to Israel. And even as they wring their hands about the complexity and nuance of the issue - a ceasefire doesn't need to *solve* the conflict. It just needs to stop killing innocent civilians by the thousands. So the last thing they'll hit you with is that your position isn't popular - except that ceasefire is an incredibly popular position right now.

So what's left? Maybe they'll try to argue that the US doesn't have the ability to influence Israeli actions, which is obviously laughable. But even if we grant that, then it's easy to just shrug and say "fine, maybe not. but we can be on the side of right, call for a ceasefire, and stop sending them out weapons. and if we can't influence their actions then they don't need our help."

Right now, pointing to Trump isn't going to do the trick if Biden continually refuses to do something which is all three of:

1)actionable
2)moral
3)popular

Making this about the election seems kind of crass, but that's where every political discussion (to our collective detriment) heads on this cursed forum. But I've been here for twenty five years and I like this place so I guess we're gonna keep arguing.

______________________________

"Walleye, a lot of things are going to go wrong in your life that technically aren't your fault. Always remember that this doesn't make you any less of an idiot"

--Walleye's Dad

  

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Rjcc
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95. "this is just lazy"
In response to Reply # 76


          

"b)If liberals had their back in 2017 by occupying airports (acts of genuine heroism, incidentally - good job, libs) during the Muslim ban, then maybe the only situation that they can imagine liberals acting with that kind of solidarity again is to do it against Trump. Seems bananas to put in writing, but it doesn't seem wrong."


who do you think was in the airports, and why is it all the same liberals who you accuse of inaction now?

because it was pretty specific people, and I wouldn't describe them in any blanket term as "liberals"

smearing people who put themselves out there against the immigration bans because you want to make a point about how some much larger group of people that may or may not include them is incorrect and strange


www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

  

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Rjcc
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91. "one second, I haven't read all the replies"
In response to Reply # 70


          


"If this were Trump, this war would be bad. America's unconditional support of this war would be bad. The protests would be appropriate. And while there would probably be questions of this man's mental health, it would be in a much more compassionate way...rather than just dismissing/shitting on poor dude.

Some of these replies are just...fucking awful."


who said this war wasn't bad?



www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

  

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Hitokiri
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71. "RE: I genuinely don't understand what's happening in this post"
In response to Reply # 66


  

          

Mohammed El-Kurd posted a great tweet about this:

https://twitter.com/m7mdkurd/status/1762167360981438760?s=03

"If you are a soldier sacrificing yourself to protect US interest, you are a rational, noble hero. But if you sacrifice yourself to protest the genocide your country is funding, you are mentally ill.

If you are a Arab man auto-cremating to protest your government, you are romanticized in American newspapers. If you are an American doing the same, your news is buried or obfuscated.

There are no truths in the US. Only narratives that serve the ruling class."


And for those who may read this and are un-aware, Mohamed Bouazizi (who was referenced and ignored earlier in this thread) self-immolated in 2011 and accelerated the Arab Spring. Several others did the same afterwards. The New York Times called them "heroic martyrs of a new North African and Middle Eastern revolution." The (British) Times and Israeli publication The Jerusalem Post both named Bouazizi Person of the Year. And he was posthumously awared the Sakharov Prize. The difference between Bouazizi and Bushnell? See the tweet above.

--

"You can't beat white people. You can only knock them out."

  

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Walleye
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79. "Yeah, restricting our political imagination is only a win for reaction"
In response to Reply # 71


          

>"If you are a soldier sacrificing yourself to protect US
>interest, you are a rational, noble hero. But if you sacrifice
>yourself to protest the genocide your country is funding, you
>are mentally ill.

Ugh. That's so good that I hate it. And it works so well because people are told to treat our current political order as a natural force on the order of gravity. A momentary historical "is" like American military power, political states with defined borders, capitalism, whatever becomes an "ought" where questioning it makes you infantile or crazy. But it's all going to disappear in a decade, a century, a millenia like a fart in the wind, so maybe the people that are looking back before our present moment or beyond it aren't crazy babies but just have a sense of perspective.

Look, I expect reactionaries to tell me that I have the politics of a teenager. They're thugs and monsters who would drink your blood to preserve their place in American hierarchy, so insults are whatever. Watching liberals do it is so screwy, though, because reactionaries do it to them too. Like, to a Trump supporter we're *all* communists, so maybe try to find some common ground with a communist, right?

>There are no truths in the US. Only narratives that serve the
>ruling class."

Yep, and you can spot it when it happens because the concept of power is completely unaccounted for. Why are we doing something? Well, the voters must want it. Capital doesn't have weight. Institutional capture is paranoid fantasy even though we're watching in real time as liberals lose a multi-decade grip on both the media and higher education.

>And for those who may read this and are un-aware, Mohamed
>Bouazizi (who was referenced and ignored earlier in this
>thread) self-immolated in 2011 and accelerated the Arab
>Spring. Several others did the same afterwards. The New York
>Times called them "heroic martyrs of a new North African and
>Middle Eastern revolution." The (British) Times and Israeli
>publication The Jerusalem Post both named Bouazizi Person of
>the Year. And he was posthumously awared the Sakharov Prize.
>The difference between Bouazizi and Bushnell? See the tweet
>above.

Jesus hell. For real? That's incredible. No memory with these people. Just a series of unrelated events punctuated by periodic elections.

______________________________

"Walleye, a lot of things are going to go wrong in your life that technically aren't your fault. Always remember that this doesn't make you any less of an idiot"

--Walleye's Dad

  

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GOMEZ
Member since Feb 13th 2003
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Tue Feb-27-24 06:49 PM

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87. "I'm wrestling with an element of this that's hard to reslove"
In response to Reply # 71


  

          

So much of our interpretation of the sacrifice depends on our own reaction to it. Like my immediate reaction was 'damn, that's heavy as fuck. Am I doing enough? What should people be doing? Why are so many people willing to accept what I see as a great evil being committed with the full support of MY government?'

If enough people see his actions and wake up to the atrocities and even take a small step towards change, then his actions become highly rational and 'worth it'.

If enough people just roll with 'mentally ill' or 'idiot' then his actions become less worth it, and in their minds they're right.

My reaction isn't that self immolation is awesome or stupid. That shit feels like the rope-a-dope that we're supposed to fall for.

In a generation of swine, the one-eyed pig is king.
-Hunter S. Thompson

  

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Walleye
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101. "Sounds like a perfectly apt description of ambivalence"
In response to Reply # 87
Tue Feb-27-24 08:39 PM by Walleye

          

Yeah, time is responsible for how that's going to be resolved. Both in the public imagination and in our own interior reckoning. That's why I was annoyed at people batting away the history of this type of protest: the most famous example of it is usually regarded as a pretty effective outcry. But as you point out, "effective" depends entirely on reaction.

>So much of our interpretation of the sacrifice depends on our
>own reaction to it. Like my immediate reaction was 'damn,
>that's heavy as fuck. Am I doing enough? What should people be
>doing? Why are so many people willing to accept what I see as
>a great evil being committed with the full support of MY
>government?'

Yeah. The thing I don't enjoy talking about is that I already felt implicated. Literal babies killed. Medics being shot trying to help people in the street. Mass starvation. The whole spectrum of awfulness, supported and funded by our government. Being judged is pretty uncomfortable and while I (obviously) don't feel nearly the sense of despair over my own uselessness here. I definitely feel extremely useless.

>If enough people see his actions and wake up to the atrocities
>and even take a small step towards change, then his actions
>become highly rational and 'worth it'.
>
>If enough people just roll with 'mentally ill' or 'idiot' then
>his actions become less worth it, and in their minds they're
>right.
>
>My reaction isn't that self immolation is awesome or stupid.
>That shit feels like the rope-a-dope that we're supposed to
>fall for.

I think that sounds right. This is going to shake out any number of ways and I definitely hope it's the former. But looking at this incredibly dramatic, powerful action and insisting that it shut up and go away discloses more about people's hoped-for outcome than it does a true understanding of the action itself.

______________________________

"Walleye, a lot of things are going to go wrong in your life that technically aren't your fault. Always remember that this doesn't make you any less of an idiot"

--Walleye's Dad

  

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Rjcc
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94. "RE: I genuinely don't understand what's happening in this post"
In response to Reply # 66


          

"If somebody finds the act of self-immolation abhorrent, which is reasonable, that is still not sufficient reason to discount his political motivation. He articulated that clearly and, furthermore, was also pretty clear that he feels implicated by US support for the genocide in Gaza."

I don't think humans work so directly that there's any reason to assign only one motivation to an act.


"You can think that Aaron Bushnell is crazy *and* that he's right."

to what end?

I can think the war is wrong and not think about that dude at all. I didn't need it to tell me, and I'm not sure who did

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

  

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Walleye
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96. "RE: I genuinely don't understand what's happening in this post"
In response to Reply # 94


          

>I don't think humans work so directly that there's any reason
>to assign only one motivation to an act.

Me either. Good job.

>"You can think that Aaron Bushnell is crazy *and* that he's
>right."
>
>to what end?

To literally the end you're describing above: trying to account for the possibility of more than one motivation.

>I can think the war is wrong and not think about that dude at
>all. I didn't need it to tell me, and I'm not sure who did

I mean, clearly somebody needs to be told that the war is wrong because it's still happening. But good work on your correct opinion.

______________________________

"Walleye, a lot of things are going to go wrong in your life that technically aren't your fault. Always remember that this doesn't make you any less of an idiot"

--Walleye's Dad

  

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Rjcc
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97. "RE: I genuinely don't understand what's happening in this post"
In response to Reply # 96


          

>"You can think that Aaron Bushnell is crazy *and* that he's
>right."
>
>to what end?

>To literally the end you're describing above: trying to account for the >possibility of more than one motivation.

your statement about being crazy and right is still just one motivation

being crazy would be his condition.

it's not a motivation by itself, it also isn't a very specific description of his condition

if I'm being too much of a pedant, put that on me, but there's a whole lot of nitpicking around words in this thread so you gotta tell me what you mean if it's something else.




www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

  

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Walleye
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Tue Feb-27-24 07:45 PM

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98. "Is there a specific description of his condition available?"
In response to Reply # 97


          

I don't accept the near-tautology of "only mentally ill people would self-immolate, therefore he is mentally ill" so to this moment, I haven't seen any further proof that he was mentally ill. Oh, and the WaPo piece about being raised in a religious cult and being an an anarchist. Those aren't proof of mental illness either. Though it wouldn't surprise me if something surfaced soon enough. This story is pretty young.

I don't agree with the distinction you're making between condition and motivation. But fair enough if you want to make it. If you want clarity, here it is: I was treating those as two separate motivators, possibly among a number of factors.

Honestly, I think his own accounting for doing it is sufficiently worthy of attention and analysis. Not exclusively, per your point. But it feels like if somebody set themselves on fire then the words they say right before they do it are pretty important.

______________________________

"Walleye, a lot of things are going to go wrong in your life that technically aren't your fault. Always remember that this doesn't make you any less of an idiot"

--Walleye's Dad

  

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Rjcc
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99. "RE: Is there a specific description of his condition available?"
In response to Reply # 98


          

>I don't accept the near-tautology of "only mentally ill
>people would self-immolate, therefore he is mentally ill" so
>to this moment, I haven't seen any further proof that he was
>mentally ill. Oh, and the WaPo piece about being raised in a
>religious cult and being an an anarchist. Those aren't proof
>of mental illness either. Though it wouldn't surprise me if
>something surfaced soon enough. This story is pretty young.

I think a person needs to be in an altered state to harm themselves

it's an extreme thing to do. does that mean that someone who runs into a burning building knowing they're going to get burned is mentally ill? I wouldn't say that.

I do think setting yourself on fire is kind of a weird step to take, as you mentioned in another reply, a lot of people have done it, personally I haven't it have the kind of impact that would make me consider it but that doesn't by itself mean dude is mentally ill

>
>I don't agree with the distinction you're making between
>condition and motivation. But fair enough if you want to make
>it. If you want clarity, here it is: I was treating those as
>two separate motivators, possibly among a number of factors.
>
>Honestly, I think his own accounting for doing it is
>sufficiently worthy of attention and analysis. Not
>exclusively, per your point. But it feels like if somebody set
>themselves on fire then the words they say right before they
>do it are pretty important.

I think they're important too. That doesn't mean I take them at face value, no matter how important they are, not because I suspect that he's mentally ill, but because I think most people aren't capable of accounting for the reasons for their actions. him doing what he did doesn't make me think that he's more in tune than most.

if he wants to say he set himself on fire for those people, then he isn't here for me to find any other reason for it. I hope he didn't set himself on fire to change my mind about the situation, because I already agree with him and that would be really sad. If he did it for someone else to change their mind....we'll see I guess?

I think one thing that is for sure is that a lot of people are thinking about him, specifically. I'm not saying that was his goal and I can't tell you if it was, but if his intent was to put the focus elsewhere it's going to be very difficult to make that shift.

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

  

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Walleye
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100. "Great. Fine."
In response to Reply # 99


          

>If he did it for someone else to change their
>mind....we'll see I guess?

That's exactly right.

______________________________

"Walleye, a lot of things are going to go wrong in your life that technically aren't your fault. Always remember that this doesn't make you any less of an idiot"

--Walleye's Dad

  

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Rjcc
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103. "except that isn't what you've been saying"
In response to Reply # 100


          

your angle has been that inserting an "if" on his points is wrong

but I'm not a straw man so really what else is there to say

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

  

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Brew
Member since Nov 23rd 2002
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Tue Feb-27-24 03:54 PM

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68. "^ per usual."
In response to Reply # 65


          

----------------------------------------

"Fuck aliens." © WarriorPoet415

  

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JayEmm
Member since Feb 06th 2004
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72. "Our perspectives may not always fully coincide but I value his posts."
In response to Reply # 65


  

          

I also think the Twins are a likeable franchise.

  

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Walleye
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73. "Oh noooo, "likeable franchise" cut me to my soul"
In response to Reply # 72


          

The playoffs are a beautiful woman who likes the Twins like a brother.

______________________________

"Walleye, a lot of things are going to go wrong in your life that technically aren't your fault. Always remember that this doesn't make you any less of an idiot"

--Walleye's Dad

  

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T Reynolds
Member since Apr 16th 2007
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Wed Feb-28-24 07:25 AM

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104. "tough work and he's usually the one to do it"
In response to Reply # 65


  

          

  

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Triptych
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120. "^^^^"
In response to Reply # 65


  

          

.

____________________________

http://instagram.com/yogikenan
http://instagram.com/shotbykenan
http://stackoverflow.com/users/43089/triptych
http://github.com/djtriptych

  

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GirlChild
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84. "revolutionary. "
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

  

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Triptych
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126. "❤️"
In response to Reply # 84


  

          

____________________________

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http://github.com/djtriptych

  

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T Reynolds
Member since Apr 16th 2007
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105. "Lowkey the craziest thing in that video is the cop pointing the gun at "
In response to Reply # 0
Wed Feb-28-24 08:06 AM by T Reynolds

  

          

man on fire

I know it's been talked to death in progressive media spaces, but the fact that the sanctioned, expected response by a someone who is charged with public safety is to point a gun at an unarmed man on fire says more to me about the society we live in than the fringe upbringing of the man whose political act we are discussing.

For a good amount of people in here, it's easier to explain away the choice of violent action against self as mental illness, and overlook violent reaction against a person harming himself (to death) as societal illness. Yall will 100% roll your eyes I'm sure, but that officer with the gun mirrors your reaction in a lot of ways. 'EW KILL IT, IT MAKES ME UNCOMFORTABLE', or something to that effect, I'm sure.

That reactionary indifference is what Bushnell was trying to strike at with his political act. Some folks are well practiced at it, to the point where someone's choice to commit that political act (and that's a key word, 'COMMIT', because it has the connotation of both a crime or infraction and inner conviction) has to be demeaned or explained away in a manner that wouldn't be necessary had the same person been taking countless others' lives in executing the orders of their commanding officers. Do we need to talk about the fringe upbringing of Israeli soldiers that shoot children and piss on corpses? Or the people who tiktok jokes about genocide of Gazans?

We've been inundated with horrific images from Gaza for months, and have been totally desensitized as a result. I personally sometimes actively avoid anything to do with Gaza because I can't stomach or comprehend the scope of it anymore. What happens when all people look away now in the hope of forgetting?

  

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T Reynolds
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109. "Taking Aaron Bushnell at His Word (and Deed)"
In response to Reply # 0
Wed Feb-28-24 11:32 AM by T Reynolds

  

          


https://www.thenation.com/article/society/aaron-bushnell-gaza-self-immolation/

The airman who set himself alight on Sunday signed up to sacrifice himself for the greater good—only to discover that he had become an accomplice to evil.

I will leave it to others to discuss the precedents for Aaron Bushnell’s self-immolation outside the Israeli embassy in Washington, from Thích Quảng Đức to Norman Morrison to Mohamed Bouazizi to Irina Slavina to Wynn Alan Bruce. Yes, this has happened before. The world has been a terrible place for too many for too long, and for that reason, the rare few most inclined to feel that terror, to breath in its ashes, have found no other option but to set themselves on fire in protest. So that others may be forced to breath in some of those ashes too.

A debate has erupted about how best to interpret Bushnell’s last act. Was it heroic? Pointless? Another opportunity to opine on the need for more robust mental health services. Or to scold those who have dared to take Bushnell at his word. After all, he was anything but inexplicit:

My name is Aaron Bushnell. I’m an active duty member of the United States Air Force. And I will no longer be complicit in genocide. I’m about to engage in an extreme act of protest, but compared to what people have been experiencing in Palestine at the hands of their colonizers, it’s not extreme at all. This is what our ruling class has decided will be normal.

When someone commits an act like this, and leaves us with words like that, I feel obligated to take the person at their word. And the words couldn’t be more instructive.

Bushnell begins with a pertinent self-identification, as an active-duty member of the United States Air Force. Given the sincerity of his last moment in uniform, it seems he was also announcing his vocation. He was someone who had signed up to sacrifice himself for the greater good, only to discover—as so many of us, myself included, have discovered—that he had signed up for the opposite: to become a willing accomplice to evil.

Bushnell doesn’t spell out the precise nature of his complicity. But the mere mention of his branch of service suffices. The US Air Force has played a significant part in the killing spree in Gaza, assisting with intelligence and targeting. It has helped build Israeli airpower for decades now, and shares the same suppliers of aircraft, missiles, and munitions that have contributed to what the political scientist Robert Pape has called “one of the most intense civilian punishment campaigns in history, comfortably in the top quartile of the most devastating bombing campaigns ever.”

The airman goes on to call the crime by its name: a genocide, an attempt at destroying a people. Their homes and farms and orchards and entire means of subsistence. Their schools and hospitals and universities. Their journalists and professors and teachers and students. The whole of their intelligentsia and their children—so many of their children. An unprecedented number, an almost instant mass killing of children too grotesque to even fathom for more than a second. Their museums and archives and age-old mosques and churches. Hundreds of registered ancient sites. Their past and present and future. Even their cemeteries, their last and only resting place.
Current Issue
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Bushnell concedes that his protest is extreme. And yet it pales in comparison to the extremism it is protesting. An extremism not just of everyday death and destruction, but one that qualifies as colonial domination. It is not only that the Israelis or their patron, the Americans, determines which Palestinian lives or dies today or yesterday or tomorrow. It is that they—we—decide how they get to live or die. With or without shelter or food. With or without gainful employment or a loved one or the capacity to move across this or that otherwise invisible, arbitrary line. It is impossible to connote in a single paragraph the depths of this humiliation, of having one’s bare existence leashed to the whims of an undeserving, self-satisfied master. I enforced a related, humiliating relationship in Afghanistan almost a decade and a half ago, as one of many uniformed humiliators. I still haven’t figured out how best to communicate that vice. I don’t have it in me to say Bushnell has found a better way. The implication of that conclusion is too dark. But I do hope he’s done it better.

I’d be remiss without noting Bushnell’s penultimate sentence on this earth, right before the necessary “Free Palestine.” He curses our ruling class for making all this normal. All of it. The spoken and unspoken. The sometimes beautiful and joyful but often needlessly cruel world that’s been built in our name. For our purported security. It’s a plea for the rest of us, those still living. Bushnell’s fellow service members specifically, many of whom entered their service with similar doe eyes. Veterans like myself. (For good or ill, we enjoy a certain discursive power most don’t. And with that, as the cliché goes, comes responsibility.)

I doubt that Bushnell would have wanted us to follow in his footsteps—at least not by dousing ourselves in gasoline before a sad and enraged farewell. But he no doubt was counting on us—and not just us service members or vets—to convey and make use of the sadness and rage in our own ways. In manners that burn and last. Beyond the man-made firestorms in Gaza. Beyond the all-encompassing fire.

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Lyle Jeremy Rubin

Lyle Jeremy Rubin is the author of Pain Is Weakness Leaving the Body: A Marine’s Unbecoming. He is a veteran of the war in Afghanistan who writes about capitalism and U.S. empire. He has a doctorate in history from the University of Rochester and has contributed to a variety of publications, including The New York Times, The Washington Post, The Guardian, Raritan, and n+1. When he is not working or reading, he likes to pay attention to the birds.

  

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Walleye
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110. "*eyes widen*"
In response to Reply # 109


          

>It is impossible to connote in a single paragraph the depths of this >humiliation, of having one’s bare existence leashed to the whims of >an undeserving, self-satisfied master. I enforced a related,
>humiliating relationship in Afghanistan almost a decade and a
>half ago, as one of many uniformed humiliators. I still
>haven’t figured out how best to communicate that vice.

I hope this was good for him. It was all really clear, to me. Even when he wasn't sure, he wrote clearly. Thanks for posting this.

______________________________

"Walleye, a lot of things are going to go wrong in your life that technically aren't your fault. Always remember that this doesn't make you any less of an idiot"

--Walleye's Dad

  

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PROMO
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112. "thanks for posting this."
In response to Reply # 109


  

          

  

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Brew
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Thu Feb-29-24 10:47 AM

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114. "Wow."
In response to Reply # 109


          

----------------------------------------

"Fuck aliens." © WarriorPoet415

  

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Rjcc
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116. "you're free to have it both ways if you want to"
In response to Reply # 109


          

but if his words were so instructive why is this level of interpretation and expansion required

(because you need an explanation of why it was a good thing for him to do what he did but also why you're not doing it, it doesn't make sense otherwise)

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

  

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legsdiamond
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Fri Mar-01-24 10:15 AM

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118. "its too extreme for most folks. Which is why some suggest its crazy"
In response to Reply # 116


          

and someone else did this in Georgia a few months earlier.

I still think brutal images of war have the most impact on getting attention.

Which is why they are rarely shown.

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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121. "Can you also share his views after seven hours of suffering..."
In response to Reply # 109


  

          

From burns before he died?


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

  

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PROMO
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122. "how do you know he was suffering?"
In response to Reply # 121


  

          

  

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legsdiamond
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129. "burned alive and didn’t die for 7 hours? "
In response to Reply # 122


          

ionno, maybe they pumped him full of pain killers but unless he was in a coma he had to be in some serious pain or discomfort.

I’m not a doctor tho.

still a fucked up question.

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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PROMO
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130. "this part."
In response to Reply # 129
Fri Mar-01-24 02:32 PM by PROMO

  

          

>I’m not a doctor tho.

he may have not felt any pain if he was on painkillers, or essentially brain dead but alive, or in a coma, or whatever.

who knows? Buddy is certain he was though, and that's kind of the problem w/ most of his replies in this post - he's pretty certain about everything despite not really knowing anything specific to this situation outside of the facts we all know.


  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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131. "Fine. How about 30 seconds into it. Do you think he regret it then?"
In response to Reply # 130


  

          


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

  

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PROMO
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132. "how the fuck do i know?"
In response to Reply # 131
Fri Mar-01-24 02:50 PM by PROMO

  

          

neither of us are mind readers, so stop acting like you are.

i don't know what he thought outside of what he said.

sheesh.

  

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Cenario
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134. "Honestly, the whole time he was conscious he seemed pretty sure of his"
In response to Reply # 131


  

          

actions and showed no signs of regret.

-The Knicks’ coaching search still includes a lone frontrunner, Kurt Rambis, whose qualifications for the position include a strong relationship with Jackson and a willingness to take the job.

  

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PROMO
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135. "exactly. he seemed pretty convicted in his thoughts..."
In response to Reply # 134


  

          

cuz he actually did the thing the extreme thing he said he was gonna do.

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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138. "So the fact that he commited suicide is evidence he had no regret once"
In response to Reply # 135


  

          

he started the act?

You should read some accounts of attempted suicide survivors.

You went from "how the fuck do I know?" to he seemed pretty steadfast in his conviction.

I can't with yall.


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

  

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PROMO
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139. "you made zero points. congrats."
In response to Reply # 138


  

          

shit, we can't even be sure he wanted to die.

he might have wanted to light himself on fire, expect someone to see him and put it out quickly, and make his political point while still being alive.

see how that works? we're not in the man's head so we can't say what he thought...including if he had any regrets whether it was 10 seconds after or 10 seconds from death.

however, though we don't know what he was thinking AFTER...we can surmise that he was strong in his convictions UP TO THAT POINT since he went through with something very extreme, REGARDLESS of what brought him to being so strong in his stance to do such a thing.

the problem is you seem to be confident in everything about this guy despite knowing nothing about him.

now, you can kindly go argue with yourself about this from here on out cuz you won't be doing it with me.

  

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legsdiamond
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142. "I’ve always felt like folks who attempted suicides that didn’t work"
In response to Reply # 138


          

weren’t really committed to the act.

but if I jump off a 15 story building and somehow survive. I’m regretting that I didn’t die. Not that I jumped.

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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Cenario
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151. "wtf. All we have are his words and actions. You are the one suggesting"
In response to Reply # 138


  

          

that he regretted his decisions yet you have nothing to back up that suggestion.

-The Knicks’ coaching search still includes a lone frontrunner, Kurt Rambis, whose qualifications for the position include a strong relationship with Jackson and a willingness to take the job.

  

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T Reynolds
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124. "honestly, what?"
In response to Reply # 121


  

          

  

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Lurkmode
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125. "smh"
In response to Reply # 121


  

          



disgusting

---------------------------
Signature

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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128. "It's disgusting because it's the part you don't want to think about. "
In response to Reply # 125


  

          

But maybe folks should spend a little time thinking about what this kids actual experience was before cheerleading it.

**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

  

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Lurkmode
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136. "Nah I can think about it"
In response to Reply # 128


  

          

>But maybe folks should spend a little time thinking about
>what this kids actual experience was before cheerleading it.
>


Did you think about his experience when you dismissed reply 109 ?

I'm not cheerleading anything.

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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137. "My response is 100% based on his experience while actually being alit. "
In response to Reply # 136


  

          

>>But maybe folks should spend a little time thinking about
>>what this kids actual experience was before cheerleading it.
>
>>
>
>
>Did you think about his experience when you dismissed reply
>109 ?
>
>I'm not cheerleading anything.


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

  

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Lurkmode
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140. "You cherry picking "
In response to Reply # 137


  

          



His words and actions before he was "alit" is part of his experience.

"My name is Aaron Bushnell. I’m an active duty member of the United States Air Force. And I will no longer be complicit in genocide. I’m about to engage in an extreme act of protest, but compared to what people have been experiencing in Palestine at the hands of their colonizers, it’s not extreme at all. This is what our ruling class has decided will be normal."


You looking past what is right in front of you to ask about something that is impossible to get.

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Cenario
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133. "da fuq"
In response to Reply # 121


  

          

-The Knicks’ coaching search still includes a lone frontrunner, Kurt Rambis, whose qualifications for the position include a strong relationship with Jackson and a willingness to take the job.

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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115. "I had to sit on this because I didn’t want my anger to cloud my respon..."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

I’m glad I took a beat because it allows me to see how folks are talking past each other.

Some folks think this is a conversation about the War in Gaza while the rest of us are thinking about this as suicide as a form of protest.

It would be great if we could s set the War in Gaza aside for a second because I am in total agreement with this kid and everyone else here who are saying that a genocide is occurring in Gaza and it's happening with material US Support.

So it really makes me want to cuss someone out when they equate being against Self Immolation as a form of protest with being pro-Israel. It’s lazy and unserious and I will ignore it going forward other than to say now go fuck yourself.

It is because people here are only thinking about it in terms of the war in Gaza, I keep asking people is self-immolation/suicide an acceptable form of protest for PETA campaigns, wanting the US to return to a gold standard, to protect the monarch butterfly from extinction, etc.

It would be good for the discussion if folks acknowledge that if someone did this to save the Monarch Butterfly from extinction, we would all probably think there is something materially wrong with that person and no one would describe them as a “revolutionary” like folks did this kid in this point.

I am making a value judgement that I think no one should commit Self-Immolation under any circumstances and in no instance should we encourage, applaud, romanticize, ennoble the act of Self-Immolation no matter how righteous the cause. This is my first major point.
I think in an honest discussion folks who are supporting/cheering this act would admit that what they believe this cause is worth suicide but there are other causes that aren’t worth the loss of life. That is, they are making a value judgement as well.

My second major point is that I do firmly believe that self-immolation is always the act of a fanatical extremist or someone pushed beyond their mental capacity to deal with external issues (which is the case with almost everyone who decides to take their life). I am okay with stepping away from the pejorative term “crazy” because folks find it dismissive which I get. Folks though also seemed to be bothered by calling it a mental illness but that’s only the case if you believe those dealing with mental illness aren’t dealing with real issues. If a guy kills himself because his girlfriend broke up with him that is not the normal or positive reaction for anyone but that doesn’t mean the issue he was dealing with isn’t serious or real and they are dealing it with real conviction.

Anyway, I keep going back to examples of religious fanaticism in connection with this Airman’s suicide because I do believe the line between his sort of fanaticism and religious fanaticism is thin if it exist at all.

Do we really think that it is a coincidence that the most known and cited exampled of SI was committed by a MONK. Or that Norman Morrison had a deeply religious background? Do we think this kid’s upbringing on a religious compound has nothing to do with anything? Is it also a coincidence when 7 cents cites Huey Newton’s idea of Revolutionary Suicide the only people to actually kill themselves in the name revolutionary suicide are some of the JonesTown folks (and I say “some” because I acknowledge a lot of people killed in that massacre were compelled to do it).

And I do think this Airman is very much in the fanatical extremist mold of Thich Quang Duc and Norman Morrison. I also don’t think Mohamed Bouazizi belongs in this group. I read as much as I’ve ever read about Mohamed Bouazizi yesterday and I was expecting to find that he was a deeply religious person. I didn’t find anything to support that other than he was from a deeply religious country Tunisia. What I did find out and did not know was that his act seems very spur of the moment. Not planned out like the other folks mentioned. A rash act in a very desperate moment. I would go so far as to say, but don’t want to get distracted arguing this point, that his Self-Immolation was not a political protest at all. Like Chris Lighty and many other suicide victims, a person who was already in a bad place who did a very rash act in a moment they felt overwhelmed. Despite the political revolution his death sparked, I don’t think its accurate to describe his death as a form of political protest, it just looks like so many other unplanned suicides. Mohamed Bouazizi in my mind has more in common with George Floyd than Thich Quang Duc, that is, his unplanned death sparked a large scale political movement.

Anyway, back to my point. I think people are having a hard time wrapping their mind around the idea that a person can be a fanatical extremist about a worthy righteous cause. We just had another post somewhere where folks acknowledged that if you internalized all the fucked up shit going on around the world, it would be unhealthy and you wouldn’t be able to function. I think this kid is an example of that. So yeah, I stand by the idea that this kid did not have a healthy mental state.

Which kind of leads to my biggest (final) point about this. I don’t see how we have this many posts and no one acknowledge that this happened during the biggest mental health crisis among young people this Country has ever seen. Do we really believe that this death has nothing to do with that? Has anyone here NOT been touched by this crisis? Would you go around any of the young people you know who may be close to an unhealthy state and describe this Airman as a “revolutionary”?

In ALMOST all other instances (exception being when folks are dealing with terminable physical or mental conditions) we consider suicide to be a reflection of mental health but this is the one exception? The one that happens to line up with your politics?

That’s why I said above that romanticizing/celebrating what this kid has done is immoral/wreckless/irresponsible.

And that’s why I am going to call bullshit on Walleye because he seems to suggest (in 66#) that my type of shunning of Self-Immolation is a form of “Good Liberals” pearl clutching regarding what it takes to cause real change in this country. I think Walleye is trying to have it both ways in saying that he isn’t taking a moral stand whether Self-Immolation is right or wrong its just is what it is and will always be a part of history; at the same time acknowledging that murder is immoral as a form of protest; AND at the same time writing this “But the way it plays out is that every war is bad, except the current war which is necessary. Every past protest that succeeded was done the right way, but the current one that hasn't succeeded is bad and done the wrong way.”

Again, maybe he meant something else, but I take that “Good Liberals” don’t want to get there hands dirty with what it takes to create change. I think Walleye is being slick and using lots of words but avoiding the telling us whether he thinks people should not commit Self-Immolation as a form of protest in a way I am sure he would condemn murder or rape as a form of protest.
I will once again say I will not advocate for any form of protest that I don't want for my own children to take part in and I think it's wreckless/immoral and irresponsible for anybody to do it for someone else's children. And for the avoidance of doubt, I don’t think the actual act itself is immoral, and actually think deserves sympathy and should not be judged too harshly (like any other person who has committed suicide).

I’ve written enough but a few more final points I want to make:
1. As a practical matter, suicide as a form of protest is so pointless and meaningless. We won’t be talking about this death in 3 months. It won’t change the course of the war. It will have no impact on awareness and making who were, somehow, unaware of the genocide all of a sudden aware. With so many brutal images already coming out of Gaza, it will not add anything to shock the senses of people. The trade of 15 minutes of news time and a long OKP discussion aren’t worth the loss of a life. I think if this kid did not grow up on a religious commune and didn’t come of age during the worst mental health crisis for young people, the kid would probably have just quit the Airforce and maybe go volunteer somewhere.

2. I guess there is a part of this that ticks me off that ABSOLUTELY NO PALESTINIAN asked that young man to do this. In fact, I’d bet that if he asked any Palestinian how he could help this is absolutely the last thing that would asked of him. To put his death on the Palestinian people is messed up.


3. I am also unmoved by his statement as to why he did it. I never doubted his conviction or what he saw as his motivation. I have no problem taking him for his word before the act. What I do wonder though is that in the seven hours after he set himself on fire and was still alive, did he maybe have a change of heart and wish he didn’t do it. Yall confident he did not??

4. Comparing the rationality of his act to joining the military is asinine. There is personal upside to joining the military even though you risk your life. The military lifted both my grandfathers out of poverty and placed them in the middle class when there was no other opportunity for black men. Without endorsing anything the military does, you can see why countless people without opportunity I drawn to the military. The personal upside can be tremendous. You cn also change your mind if you don’t like it. With suicide there is no such upside or ability to change your mind.


I've got a lot of words on this because I feel strongly about it (...and I haven't been drinking for a while and got a gang of energy and clarity), had a young frat brother recently take his life and also listened to this story about a recent suicide cluster at a New England.

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/02/11/podcasts/the-daily/mental-health-education.html



**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

  

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T Reynolds
Member since Apr 16th 2007
42760 posts
Fri Mar-01-24 11:30 AM

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123. "Congrats on staying dry I do agree it lends to energy and clarity"
In response to Reply # 115
Fri Mar-01-24 11:32 AM by T Reynolds

  

          

I will read the rest of your response closely but I just want to address the absolutism in your statement "self-immolation is always the act of a fanatical extremist or someone pushed beyond their mental capacity to deal with external issues"

In a normal society I would agree. But kamikaze pilots 'self-immolating' in what they were indoctrinated into believing was a divine sacrifice during WW2 were not all fanatical extremists who were crazy. They were socialized into acting as what military personnel in the West pejoratively described as 'idiot bombs'. Islamic extremists using suicide bombings as a political instrument is also easy to write off as 'barbaric', 'insane', and demean for its brutality and ultimate ineffectiveness especially relative to advanced weaponry and military capabilities. Ultimately, a man driving a van on the west side highway that kills 8 innocent people in Manhattan is seen as a psychopath and criminal (as they should be), while an American airman who personally contributes directly to a campaign of bombings that lead to the killing of (let's say proportionally) 8 innocent people of the tens of thousands of Gazans is just collecting a paycheck. The lengths you have to go to sanction the latter and say that same person has no right to make a political statement protesting his and his country's participation and indifference to death, that happens to end in his own death, seems really callous, or at least not even-handed.

It seems instead of seeing the political act for what it is and interpreting your reaction to it based on your personal biases, you are going to great lengths to categorize the act in a way that fits into a legalistic, rational mode of thinking. Maybe if you talked about your anger instead it would present a more direct path into the real feelings Bushnell's suicide give rise to.

So far I see your enumerated points at the end are pretty problematic, and I think most of them show a reactionary tendency. I mean the gall to write:
"1. As a practical matter, suicide as a form of protest is so pointless and meaningless."
Don't know what to say to this level of certainty and truthyness

"ABSOLUTELY NO PALESTINIAN asked that young man to do this."
Talk about missing the point

"3. I am also unmoved by his statement as to why he did it."
Yes, you are actively disgusted by it I think. You are moved, just not sympathetically

Point 4, yes your family is not the only one who benefited from military service economically and socially. Again, that is beside the point of the resulting act of protest.

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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127. "Just a couple of quick points. I promise not to long. "
In response to Reply # 123


  

          

>I will read the rest of your response closely but I just want
>to address the absolutism in your statement "self-immolation
>is always the act of a fanatical extremist or someone pushed
>beyond their mental capacity to deal with external issues"
>
>In a normal society I would agree. But kamikaze pilots
>'self-immolating' in what they were indoctrinated into
>believing was a divine sacrifice during WW2 were not all
>fanatical extremists who were crazy. They were socialized into
>acting as what military personnel in the West pejoratively
>described as 'idiot bombs'. Islamic extremists using suicide
>bombings as a political instrument is also easy to write off
>as 'barbaric', 'insane', and demean for its brutality and
>ultimate ineffectiveness especially relative to advanced
>weaponry and military capabilities. Ultimately, a man driving
>a van on the west side highway that kills 8 innocent people in
>Manhattan is seen as a psychopath and criminal (as they should
>be), while an American airman who personally contributes
>directly to a campaign of bombings that lead to the killing of
>(let's say proportionally) 8 innocent people of the tens of
>thousands of Gazans is just collecting a paycheck. The lengths
>you have to go to sanction the latter and say that same person
>has no right to make a political statement protesting his and
>his country's participation and indifference to death, that
>happens to end in his own death, seems really callous, or at
>least not even-handed.

1. The examples you give though fall into fanatical extremist though. The Kamikaze, the Islamic Extremist, The Vietnamese Monk, the kid coming up during a mental health crisis who grew up on a religious compound, I think they all fall into my two categories (i.e., fanatic or disturbed person or both). Seems like you agree too but might be missing your point.

I do think I am even handed because I agree that war is morally wrong. I am in no way sanctioning it. Folks keep seeing my position as a sanctioning of the wat despite how many times I say it. I don't have a lot of keystrokes about because I think we are all in agreement. My point is the war (and our role in it and acts we take it) are wrong and should be condemned AND killing yourself in protest of it should be condemned (or just not applauded and lauded). It's not either/or.


>
>It seems instead of seeing the political act for what it is
>and interpreting your reaction to it based on your personal
>biases, you are going to great lengths to categorize the act
>in a way that fits into a legalistic, rational mode of
>thinking. Maybe if you talked about your anger instead it
>would present a more direct path into the real feelings
>Bushnell's suicide give rise to.

You know what, I have no problem acknowledging it's a political act. I am saying it's the political act of a fanatical person who may be suffering from mental problems. I guess I agree with RJCC (SMH); it could easily be both.


>So far I see your enumerated points at the end are pretty
>problematic, and I think most of them show a reactionary
>tendency. I mean the gall to write:
>"1. As a practical matter, suicide as a form of protest is so
>pointless and meaningless."
>Don't know what to say to this level of certainty and
>truthyness

As I regard almost all suicides, the finality of death is not an appropriate reaction/solution to a problem. I stated exceptions above.

>"ABSOLUTELY NO PALESTINIAN asked that young man to do this."
>Talk about missing the point



>"3. I am also unmoved by his statement as to why he did it."
>Yes, you are actively disgusted by it I think. You are moved,
>just not sympathetically

I am not disgusted by it. I feel very sorry for this kid that he thought this was the solution to the problem he and the world faces. I guess my point him being cogent, thoughtful and articulate about why he was doing this would never impact that Idea that I think this is the act of a fanatical extremist who may be suffering from mental illness.


>Point 4, yes your family is not the only one who benefited
>from military service economically and socially. Again, that
>is beside the point of the resulting act of protest.

Yeah I agree it's beside the point which is why I don't think folks should compare the two.


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

  

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3CardMolly
Member since Jun 08th 2007
13784 posts
Fri Mar-01-24 07:36 PM

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141. "When is suicide not pointless?"
In response to Reply # 115


  

          

We all gone go some day, why rush it?

  

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Stadiq
Member since Dec 21st 2005
4873 posts
Sat Mar-02-24 12:08 AM

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143. "I don't usually have the energy for this but"
In response to Reply # 115


          




>I’m glad I took a beat because it allows me to see how
>folks are talking past each other.
>
>Some folks think this is a conversation about the War in Gaza

That is literally the point of his tragic protest. You cannot separate the two, no matter how badly you want to.

You sound like a pro-gun person after a mass shooting on some "now is not the time to talk about guns" shit.

It is absolutely the time.

This kid clearly had issues...but there was a major trigger to this you can't just ignore because you are trying to make a rhetorical point.

>while the rest of us are thinking about this as suicide as a
>form of protest.
>
>It would be great if we could s set the War in Gaza aside for
>a second

But, you can't do that. Whatever his mental state, he did this in response to what is happening in Gaza.

because I am in total agreement with this kid and
>everyone else here who are saying that a genocide is occurring
>in Gaza and it's happening with material US Support.

Why, do you think, you have posted more criticism of this poor kid than the US and Israel?

If you are in such agreement, why are you seemingly more triggered by his death than the thousands of innocent Palestinians?

They are being bombed relentlessly, starved, and shot at while trying to get flour.

But, what this kid did is somehow more important to you. At least, based on how much you want to talk about it to shit on him.

>
>So it really makes me want to cuss someone out when they
>equate being against Self Immolation as a form of protest with
>being pro-Israel. It’s lazy and unserious and I will ignore
>it going forward other than to say now go fuck yourself.
>
>It is because people here are only thinking about it in terms
>of the war in Gaza,

Because that is literally what this is about.

I keep asking people is
>self-immolation/suicide an acceptable form of protest for PETA
>campaigns, wanting the US to return to a gold standard, to
>protect the monarch butterfly from extinction, etc.

Yeah comparing dead innocent people to butterflies isn't a good look for someone who is claiming to be on the same side.




>
>It would be good for the discussion if folks acknowledge that
>if someone did this to save the Monarch Butterfly from
>extinction, we would all probably think there is something
>materially wrong with that person and no one would describe
>them as a “revolutionary” like folks did this kid in this
>point.


Again, this isn't about dead butterflies. This is about dead human beings. Bombed. Starved. Shot. Etc.

All with US backing, money, cheerleading, etc.

I haven't seen one person call this kid revolutionary. Not one.


I have seen some compassionate analysis. I have seen people say he tried desperately to raise awareness. I have seen vigils, etc.

And I have seen smooth brained blue maga types dismiss and shit on the poor kid. I've seen devils advocate type assholes who try and come up with comparisons to protests about butterflies.

I haven't seen one person call him a revolutionary. Maybe I missed something here, but it seems like you made that up in your head to justify shitting on him.


>
>I am making a value judgement that I think no one should
>commit Self-Immolation under any circumstances and in no
>instance should we encourage, applaud, romanticize, ennoble
>the act of Self-Immolation no matter how righteous the cause.
>This is my first major point.

The problem is you are the same guy who applauded some 130 year old senator for shitting on protesting kids.


You don't exactly have a good track record for compassion, empathy, etc on these issues.

You have a track record of siding with those in power, for some reason.


>I think in an honest discussion folks who are
>supporting/cheering this act would admit that what they
>believe this cause is worth suicide but there are other causes
>that aren’t worth the loss of life. That is, they are
>making a value judgement as well.


I haven't seen one single person say this was worth it.

I have seen people put more blame on those in power who are funding/committing/etc these atrocities.

But that would require criticizing those in power, rather than this kid. And that isn't your style.

>
>My second major point is that I do firmly believe that
>self-immolation is always the act of a fanatical extremist or
>someone pushed beyond their mental capacity to deal with
>external issues (which is the case with almost everyone who
>decides to take their life). I am okay with stepping away from
>the pejorative term “crazy” because folks find it
>dismissive which I get. Folks though also seemed to be
>bothered by calling it a mental illness but that’s only the
>case if you believe those dealing with mental illness aren’t
>dealing with real issues. If a guy kills himself because his
>girlfriend broke up with him that is not the normal or
>positive reaction for anyone but that doesn’t mean the issue
>he was dealing with isn’t serious or real and they are
>dealing it with real conviction.
>
>Anyway, I keep going back to examples of religious fanaticism
>in connection with this Airman’s suicide because I do
>believe the line between his sort of fanaticism and religious
>fanaticism is thin if it exist at all.
>
>Do we really think that it is a coincidence that the most
>known and cited exampled of SI was committed by a MONK. Or
>that Norman Morrison had a deeply religious background? Do we
>think this kid’s upbringing on a religious compound has
>nothing to do with anything? Is it also a coincidence when 7
>cents cites Huey Newton’s idea of Revolutionary Suicide the
>only people to actually kill themselves in the name
>revolutionary suicide are some of the JonesTown folks (and I
>say “some” because I acknowledge a lot of people killed in
>that massacre were compelled to do it).
>
>And I do think this Airman is very much in the fanatical
>extremist mold of Thich Quang Duc and Norman Morrison.

Or he was a kid yes with mental health issues to do this but also thought it would raise awareness.

And before everyone was in their social media silos- and the media wasn't garbage- this might have worked.

This isn't to say that it was or would have been worth it. But you are essentially saying this kid offed himself because he was basically a member of a cult.

That is...not true and an extremely fucked up view to have.

He was a troubled kid with seemingly a good heart who didn't have an outlet.



I also
>don’t think Mohamed Bouazizi belongs in this group. I read
>as much as I’ve ever read about Mohamed Bouazizi yesterday
>and I was expecting to find that he was a deeply religious
>person. I didn’t find anything to support that other than
>he was from a deeply religious country Tunisia. What I did
>find out and did not know was that his act seems very spur of
>the moment. Not planned out like the other folks mentioned. A
>rash act in a very desperate moment. I would go so far as to
>say, but don’t want to get distracted arguing this point,
>that his Self-Immolation was not a political protest at all.
>Like Chris Lighty and many other suicide victims, a person who
>was already in a bad place who did a very rash act in a moment
>they felt overwhelmed. Despite the political revolution his
>death sparked, I don’t think its accurate to describe his
>death as a form of political protest, it just looks like so
>many other unplanned suicides. Mohamed Bouazizi in my mind
>has more in common with George Floyd than Thich Quang Duc,
>that is, his unplanned death sparked a large scale political
>movement.
>
>Anyway, back to my point. I think people are having a hard
>time wrapping their mind around the idea that a person can be
>a fanatical extremist about a worthy righteous cause.

No, I think its that you - for some reason - are wired to defend those in power and dismiss those who question it in any way.

To light yourself on fire is fanatic, yes. Not sure what you think you win here.

We just
>had another post somewhere where folks acknowledged that if
>you internalized all the fucked up shit going on around the
>world, it would be unhealthy and you wouldn’t be able to
>function. I think this kid is an example of that. So yeah, I
>stand by the idea that this kid did not have a healthy mental
>state.
>

That isn't all you are doing though. You- and others- are downplaying a major root cause of this.

And that is the USA is funding/cheerleading/defending/etc these horrific acts.

And this is what is happening with the "lesser evil" in charge.

Where is the line? If it isn't genocide, what is it?


>Which kind of leads to my biggest (final) point about this. I
>don’t see how we have this many posts and no one acknowledge
>that this happened during the biggest mental health crisis
>among young people this Country has ever seen. Do we really
>believe that this death has nothing to do with that? Has
>anyone here NOT been touched by this crisis? Would you go
>around any of the young people you know who may be close to an
>unhealthy state and describe this Airman as a
>“revolutionary”?

Why are you more upset with this kid getting attention than the awful things that triggered his action, my good libera?


>
>In ALMOST all other instances (exception being when folks are
>dealing with terminable physical or mental conditions) we
>consider suicide to be a reflection of mental health but this
>is the one exception? The one that happens to line up with
>your politics?

You don't always have to play devils advocate, man.


Not everything is a law-school debate.



>
>That’s why I said above that romanticizing/celebrating what
>this kid has done is immoral/wreckless/irresponsible.
>
>And that’s why I am going to call bullshit on Walleye
>because he seems to suggest (in 66#) that my type of shunning
>of Self-Immolation is a form of “Good Liberals” pearl
>clutching regarding what it takes to cause real change in this
>country.

Its because you "good liberals" get more worked up by this than actual genocide.

Think on why you have spent so much time diving into this kid's mental state than you have other shit.



I think Walleye is trying to have it both ways in
>saying that he isn’t taking a moral stand whether
>Self-Immolation is right or wrong its just is what it is and
>will always be a part of history; at the same time
>acknowledging that murder is immoral as a form of protest; AND
>at the same time writing this “But the way it plays out is
>that every war is bad, except the current war which is
>necessary. Every past protest that succeeded was done the
>right way, but the current one that hasn't succeeded is bad
>and done the wrong way.”
>
>Again, maybe he meant something else, but I take that “Good
>Liberals” don’t want to get there hands dirty with what it
>takes to create change.

No, its that "good liberals" will downplay/ignore/etc any form of protest or criticism when the "lesser evil" is doing the killing.

That the left used to bang for shit...and how we got people like you celebrating a 145 year old politician shitting on kids and being more upset about one dead kid getting attention vs thousands who have not.

That's the good liberal.

I think Walleye is being slick and
>using lots of words but avoiding the telling us whether he
>thinks people should not commit Self-Immolation as a form of
>protest in a way I am sure he would condemn murder or rape as
>a form of protest.

I can't speak for him, but I take it as he wants you to have as much energy for governments slaughtering people as you do some kid getting attention because he didn't know how to handle his pain.



>I will once again say I will not advocate for any form of
>protest that I don't want for my own children to take part in
>and I think it's wreckless/immoral and irresponsible for
>anybody to do it for someone else's children.

I know you thought this was deep, but most of us have kids. None of us want that.

Also, none of us want our kids to be bombed, starved, etc. Maybe save some energy for that.

And for the
>avoidance of doubt, I don’t think the actual act itself is
>immoral, and actually think deserves sympathy and should not
>be judged too harshly (like any other person who has committed
>suicide).

And yet, that is precisely what you have done by ignoring/downplaying a big reason he did it.

>
>I’ve written enough but a few more final points I want to
>make:
>1. As a practical matter, suicide as a form of protest is so
>pointless and meaningless. We won’t be talking about this
>death in 3 months. It won’t change the course of the war.
>It will have no impact on awareness and making who were,
>somehow, unaware of the genocide all of a sudden aware. With
>so many brutal images already coming out of Gaza, it will not
>add anything to shock the senses of people. The trade of 15
>minutes of news time and a long OKP discussion aren’t worth
>the loss of a life. I think if this kid did not grow up on a
>religious commune and didn’t come of age during the worst
>mental health crisis for young people, the kid would probably
>have just quit the Airforce and maybe go volunteer somewhere.

I haven't seen anyone disagree with this, but go off.

>
>
>2. I guess there is a part of this that ticks me off that
>ABSOLUTELY NO PALESTINIAN asked that young man to do this. In
>fact, I’d bet that if he asked any Palestinian how he could
>help this is absolutely the last thing that would asked of
>him. To put his death on the Palestinian people is messed up.

There's no way you are this fucking stupid. No one is putting his death on Palestinians, my good liberal. I guess maybe you did, by saying "no Palestinian asked for this!" as if that was...news.

They are putting it on his mental health AND the trigger- the genocide that the US is funding/supplying/defending/etc.

Have some smoke for that.




>
>
>
>3. I am also unmoved by his statement as to why he did it. I
>never doubted his conviction or what he saw as his motivation.
>I have no problem taking him for his word before the act. What
>I do wonder though is that in the seven hours after he set
>himself on fire and was still alive, did he maybe have a
>change of heart and wish he didn’t do it. Yall confident he
>did not??

You have given this a creepy amount of thought. How much thought have you given to the starving kids getting bombed?

>
>4. Comparing the rationality of his act to joining the
>military is asinine. There is personal upside to joining the
>military even though you risk your life. The military lifted
>both my grandfathers out of poverty and placed them in the
>middle class when there was no other opportunity for black
>men.

Oh shit, this explains a fucking lot. You come from a military family. A good liberal who also defers to authority and thinks everything is a topic for debate class, etc.

Despite this, you don't need to be this way.


Without endorsing anything the military does, you can see
>why countless people without opportunity I drawn to the
>military. The personal upside can be tremendous. You cn also
>change your mind if you don’t like it.

WTF does this have to do with anything other than your upbringing kicking in to reflexively defend the military, authority, etc??



With suicide there is
>no such upside or ability to change your mind.
>
>
>I've got a lot of words on this because I feel strongly about
>it (...and I haven't been drinking for a while and got a gang
>of energy and clarity), had a young frat brother recently take
>his life

I am genuinely sorry to hear that. I have also lost someone to suicide. There are no words.

I've never once thought to log on to a message board and shit on someone who committed suicide, though. We all mourn differently, I guess.



and also listened to this story about a recent
>suicide cluster at a New England.
>
>https://www.nytimes.com/2024/02/11/podcasts/the-daily/mental-health-education.html
>

It isn't guns, its mental health! That's what you sound like.


It can be both. He can be a troubled kid who was (understandably) deeply impacted by what is happening, and didn't know how to handle it.

Throw some energy/thought/criticism to the governments doing this.


Or continue to frantically post about this one kid who dared question authority and anyone who wants to talk about one of the biggest reasons why he did this.

And the other kids who your girl clapped back on, etc.





>
>
>
>**********
>"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then
>they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson
>
>"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

  

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Rjcc
Charter member
94963 posts
Sat Mar-02-24 02:21 PM

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145. "uh"
In response to Reply # 143


          

"But, you can't do that. Whatever his mental state, he did this in response to what is happening in Gaza."


you can't just "whatever" someone's mental state


I mean you can, if you already agreed with their point and you think it's beneficial to do so

but it undermines any attempt you're making at saying that it's because it's a good point.

it's just because you want to, that's it.

you've decided that anything is justifiable in support of the point you want to make and that not only does the method not matter, neither do the reasons.

think about that for a second

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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49394 posts
Sun Mar-03-24 08:27 PM

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149. "I wrote a long response and realized it was a waste. I'll keep it simple..."
In response to Reply # 143


  

          

To one question even.


>I haven't seen one person call this kid revolutionary. Not
>one.
>I haven't seen one person call him a revolutionary. Maybe I
>missed something here, but it seems like you made that up in
>your head to justify shitting on him.


This put me on to the idea you just aren't reading about this and don't know what you are talking about. It's literally done twice in this post.


Now I want to ask you, now that you see it's not a strawman argument and people are calling this kid a revolutionary, how do you feel about that? Is it a good thing? Do you think this kid is not a revolutionary?


What's wild is we agree. This kid is troubled and dealing with mental issues. That's always been my point. People with mental issues respond to external issues with nonproportional responses.

I changed my mind about a long response because if you thought my other responses was "shitting" on the kid then my point totally flew over your head. It's not the kid who should be ashamed, its folks cheerleading this type of action who should be ashamed.

Point to anywhere where I criticized or "shitted" on the kid?

In my mind the sympathetic, empathetic position would be NOT wanting the kid to have committed this act, not cheerleading it.



>
>
>>
>>I am making a value judgement that I think no one should
>>commit Self-Immolation under any circumstances and in no
>>instance should we encourage, applaud, romanticize, ennoble
>>the act of Self-Immolation no matter how righteous the cause.
>
>>This is my first major point.
>
>The problem is you are the same guy who applauded some 130
>year old senator for shitting on protesting kids.
>
>
>You don't exactly have a good track record for compassion,
>empathy, etc on these issues.
>
>You have a track record of siding with those in power, for
>some reason.
>
>
>>I think in an honest discussion folks who are
>>supporting/cheering this act would admit that what they
>>believe this cause is worth suicide but there are other
>causes
>>that aren’t worth the loss of life. That is, they are
>>making a value judgement as well.
>
>
>I haven't seen one single person say this was worth it.
>
>I have seen people put more blame on those in power who are
>funding/committing/etc these atrocities.
>
>But that would require criticizing those in power, rather than
>this kid. And that isn't your style.
>
>>
>>My second major point is that I do firmly believe that
>>self-immolation is always the act of a fanatical extremist
>or
>>someone pushed beyond their mental capacity to deal with
>>external issues (which is the case with almost everyone who
>>decides to take their life). I am okay with stepping away
>from
>>the pejorative term “crazy” because folks find it
>>dismissive which I get. Folks though also seemed to be
>>bothered by calling it a mental illness but that’s only
>the
>>case if you believe those dealing with mental illness
>aren’t
>>dealing with real issues. If a guy kills himself because his
>>girlfriend broke up with him that is not the normal or
>>positive reaction for anyone but that doesn’t mean the
>issue
>>he was dealing with isn’t serious or real and they are
>>dealing it with real conviction.
>>
>>Anyway, I keep going back to examples of religious
>fanaticism
>>in connection with this Airman’s suicide because I do
>>believe the line between his sort of fanaticism and
>religious
>>fanaticism is thin if it exist at all.
>>
>>Do we really think that it is a coincidence that the most
>>known and cited exampled of SI was committed by a MONK. Or
>>that Norman Morrison had a deeply religious background? Do
>we
>>think this kid’s upbringing on a religious compound has
>>nothing to do with anything? Is it also a coincidence when
>7
>>cents cites Huey Newton’s idea of Revolutionary Suicide
>the
>>only people to actually kill themselves in the name
>>revolutionary suicide are some of the JonesTown folks (and I
>>say “some” because I acknowledge a lot of people killed
>in
>>that massacre were compelled to do it).
>>
>>And I do think this Airman is very much in the fanatical
>>extremist mold of Thich Quang Duc and Norman Morrison.
>
>Or he was a kid yes with mental health issues to do this but
>also thought it would raise awareness.
>
>And before everyone was in their social media silos- and the
>media wasn't garbage- this might have worked.
>
>This isn't to say that it was or would have been worth it. But
>you are essentially saying this kid offed himself because he
>was basically a member of a cult.
>
>That is...not true and an extremely fucked up view to have.
>
>He was a troubled kid with seemingly a good heart who didn't
>have an outlet.
>
>
>
> I also
>>don’t think Mohamed Bouazizi belongs in this group. I read
>>as much as I’ve ever read about Mohamed Bouazizi yesterday
>>and I was expecting to find that he was a deeply religious
>>person. I didn’t find anything to support that other than
>>he was from a deeply religious country Tunisia. What I did
>>find out and did not know was that his act seems very spur
>of
>>the moment. Not planned out like the other folks mentioned.
>A
>>rash act in a very desperate moment. I would go so far as
>to
>>say, but don’t want to get distracted arguing this point,
>>that his Self-Immolation was not a political protest at all.
>
>>Like Chris Lighty and many other suicide victims, a person
>who
>>was already in a bad place who did a very rash act in a
>moment
>>they felt overwhelmed. Despite the political revolution his
>>death sparked, I don’t think its accurate to describe his
>>death as a form of political protest, it just looks like so
>>many other unplanned suicides. Mohamed Bouazizi in my mind
>>has more in common with George Floyd than Thich Quang Duc,
>>that is, his unplanned death sparked a large scale political
>>movement.
>>
>>Anyway, back to my point. I think people are having a hard
>>time wrapping their mind around the idea that a person can
>be
>>a fanatical extremist about a worthy righteous cause.
>
>No, I think its that you - for some reason - are wired to
>defend those in power and dismiss those who question it in any
>way.
>
>To light yourself on fire is fanatic, yes. Not sure what you
>think you win here.
>
>We just
>>had another post somewhere where folks acknowledged that if
>>you internalized all the fucked up shit going on around the
>>world, it would be unhealthy and you wouldn’t be able to
>>function. I think this kid is an example of that. So yeah,
>I
>>stand by the idea that this kid did not have a healthy
>mental
>>state.
>>
>
>That isn't all you are doing though. You- and others- are
>downplaying a major root cause of this.
>
>And that is the USA is funding/cheerleading/defending/etc
>these horrific acts.
>
>And this is what is happening with the "lesser evil" in
>charge.
>
>Where is the line? If it isn't genocide, what is it?
>
>
>>Which kind of leads to my biggest (final) point about this.
>I
>>don’t see how we have this many posts and no one
>acknowledge
>>that this happened during the biggest mental health crisis
>>among young people this Country has ever seen. Do we really
>>believe that this death has nothing to do with that? Has
>>anyone here NOT been touched by this crisis? Would you go
>>around any of the young people you know who may be close to
>an
>>unhealthy state and describe this Airman as a
>>“revolutionary”?
>
>Why are you more upset with this kid getting attention than
>the awful things that triggered his action, my good libera?
>
>
>>
>>In ALMOST all other instances (exception being when folks
>are
>>dealing with terminable physical or mental conditions) we
>>consider suicide to be a reflection of mental health but
>this
>>is the one exception? The one that happens to line up with
>>your politics?
>
>You don't always have to play devils advocate, man.
>
>
>Not everything is a law-school debate.
>
>
>
>>
>>That’s why I said above that romanticizing/celebrating
>what
>>this kid has done is immoral/wreckless/irresponsible.
>>
>>And that’s why I am going to call bullshit on Walleye
>>because he seems to suggest (in 66#) that my type of
>shunning
>>of Self-Immolation is a form of “Good Liberals” pearl
>>clutching regarding what it takes to cause real change in
>this
>>country.
>
>Its because you "good liberals" get more worked up by this
>than actual genocide.
>
>Think on why you have spent so much time diving into this
>kid's mental state than you have other shit.
>
>
>
>I think Walleye is trying to have it both ways in
>>saying that he isn’t taking a moral stand whether
>>Self-Immolation is right or wrong its just is what it is and
>>will always be a part of history; at the same time
>>acknowledging that murder is immoral as a form of protest;
>AND
>>at the same time writing this “But the way it plays out is
>>that every war is bad, except the current war which is
>>necessary. Every past protest that succeeded was done the
>>right way, but the current one that hasn't succeeded is bad
>>and done the wrong way.”
>>
>>Again, maybe he meant something else, but I take that
>“Good
>>Liberals” don’t want to get there hands dirty with what
>it
>>takes to create change.
>
>No, its that "good liberals" will downplay/ignore/etc any form
>of protest or criticism when the "lesser evil" is doing the
>killing.
>
>That the left used to bang for shit...and how we got people
>like you celebrating a 145 year old politician shitting on
>kids and being more upset about one dead kid getting attention
>vs thousands who have not.
>
>That's the good liberal.
>
>I think Walleye is being slick and
>>using lots of words but avoiding the telling us whether he
>>thinks people should not commit Self-Immolation as a form of
>>protest in a way I am sure he would condemn murder or rape
>as
>>a form of protest.
>
>I can't speak for him, but I take it as he wants you to have
>as much energy for governments slaughtering people as you do
>some kid getting attention because he didn't know how to
>handle his pain.
>
>
>
>>I will once again say I will not advocate for any form of
>>protest that I don't want for my own children to take part
>in
>>and I think it's wreckless/immoral and irresponsible for
>>anybody to do it for someone else's children.
>
>I know you thought this was deep, but most of us have kids.
>None of us want that.
>
>Also, none of us want our kids to be bombed, starved, etc.
>Maybe save some energy for that.
>
>And for the
>>avoidance of doubt, I don’t think the actual act itself is
>>immoral, and actually think deserves sympathy and should not
>>be judged too harshly (like any other person who has
>committed
>>suicide).
>
>And yet, that is precisely what you have done by
>ignoring/downplaying a big reason he did it.
>
>>
>>I’ve written enough but a few more final points I want to
>>make:
>>1. As a practical matter, suicide as a form of protest is so
>>pointless and meaningless. We won’t be talking about this
>>death in 3 months. It won’t change the course of the war.
>
>>It will have no impact on awareness and making who were,
>>somehow, unaware of the genocide all of a sudden aware.
>With
>>so many brutal images already coming out of Gaza, it will
>not
>>add anything to shock the senses of people. The trade of 15
>>minutes of news time and a long OKP discussion aren’t
>worth
>>the loss of a life. I think if this kid did not grow up on
>a
>>religious commune and didn’t come of age during the worst
>>mental health crisis for young people, the kid would
>probably
>>have just quit the Airforce and maybe go volunteer
>somewhere.
>
>I haven't seen anyone disagree with this, but go off.
>
>>
>>
>>2. I guess there is a part of this that ticks me off that
>>ABSOLUTELY NO PALESTINIAN asked that young man to do this.
>In
>>fact, I’d bet that if he asked any Palestinian how he
>could
>>help this is absolutely the last thing that would asked of
>>him. To put his death on the Palestinian people is messed
>up.
>
>There's no way you are this fucking stupid. No one is putting
>his death on Palestinians, my good liberal. I guess maybe
>you did, by saying "no Palestinian asked for this!" as if that
>was...news.
>
>They are putting it on his mental health AND the trigger- the
>genocide that the US is funding/supplying/defending/etc.
>
>Have some smoke for that.
>
>
>
>
>>
>>
>>
>>3. I am also unmoved by his statement as to why he did it.
>I
>>never doubted his conviction or what he saw as his
>motivation.
>>I have no problem taking him for his word before the act.
>What
>>I do wonder though is that in the seven hours after he set
>>himself on fire and was still alive, did he maybe have a
>>change of heart and wish he didn’t do it. Yall confident
>he
>>did not??
>
>You have given this a creepy amount of thought. How much
>thought have you given to the starving kids getting bombed?
>
>>
>>4. Comparing the rationality of his act to joining the
>>military is asinine. There is personal upside to joining the
>>military even though you risk your life. The military lifted
>>both my grandfathers out of poverty and placed them in the
>>middle class when there was no other opportunity for black
>>men.
>
>Oh shit, this explains a fucking lot. You come from a
>military family. A good liberal who also defers to authority
>and thinks everything is a topic for debate class, etc.
>
>Despite this, you don't need to be this way.
>
>
>Without endorsing anything the military does, you can see
>>why countless people without opportunity I drawn to the
>>military. The personal upside can be tremendous. You cn
>also
>>change your mind if you don’t like it.
>
>WTF does this have to do with anything other than your
>upbringing kicking in to reflexively defend the military,
>authority, etc??
>
>
>
> With suicide there is
>>no such upside or ability to change your mind.
>>
>>
>>I've got a lot of words on this because I feel strongly
>about
>>it (...and I haven't been drinking for a while and got a
>gang
>>of energy and clarity), had a young frat brother recently
>take
>>his life
>
>I am genuinely sorry to hear that. I have also lost someone
>to suicide. There are no words.
>
>I've never once thought to log on to a message board and shit
>on someone who committed suicide, though. We all mourn
>differently, I guess.
>
>
>
>and also listened to this story about a recent
>>suicide cluster at a New England.
>>
>>https://www.nytimes.com/2024/02/11/podcasts/the-daily/mental-health-education.html
>>
>
>It isn't guns, its mental health! That's what you sound like.
>
>
>It can be both. He can be a troubled kid who was
>(understandably) deeply impacted by what is happening, and
>didn't know how to handle it.
>
>Throw some energy/thought/criticism to the governments doing
>this.
>
>
>Or continue to frantically post about this one kid who dared
>question authority and anyone who wants to talk about one of
>the biggest reasons why he did this.
>
>And the other kids who your girl clapped back on, etc.
>
>
>
>
>
>>
>>
>>
>>**********
>>"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then
>>they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson
>>
>>"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"
>


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

  

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handle
Charter member
18942 posts
Sun Mar-03-24 09:34 AM

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147. "I 99.9999% agree, except ..."
In response to Reply # 115


          

>I am making a value judgement that I think no one should commit Self
>Immolation under any circumstances and in no instance should we
>encourage, applaud, romanticize, ennoble the act of Self-Immolation no
>matter how righteous the cause. This is my first major point.

I think there's a huge difference between committing self-immolation because you are actively being severely repressed and that you are completely powerless to stop it and being alive under those conditions is intolerable

-and-

A 25 year old guy driving his kid to the Israeli embassy in the US and live-streaming it on his own channel and uploading it to a blog doesn't reach that very high bar *in my eyes.* Looks like a TON of folks in here disagree.

If a senior Hamas leader set him self on fire I might be able to see that as a possible act of political protest. Or a member of the Israeli Knesset, or Israeli activist. Or just Gazans/Palestinians.

This, TO ME, seems like the wrong approach in the U.S. where he had very little involvement of what is going on - and he could have protested in literally 1000s of other ways and maybe made a difference.

This seems like he was taking on himself to show *HIS* sacrifice - that it was about *him* - that's how it seems to *me.*

>and in no instance should we
>encourage, applaud, romanticize, ennoble the act of Self-Immolation no
>matter how righteous the cause.

100%, with a few small allowances.

------------


Gone: My Discogs collection for The Roots:
http://www.discogs.com/user/tomhayes-roots/collection

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
Charter member
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Sun Mar-03-24 08:04 PM

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148. "Yes, I reluctantly agree. "
In response to Reply # 147


  

          

I will stick to my stance that all self-immolations as a political protest should de discouraged and not romanticized (hence my reluctantly agreeing).

But I do believe there is a great difference between this kid and Mohamed Bouazizi. I really am in no position to judge whether Mohamed Bouazizi had other options to voice his rage against the machine but I know this kid did.



>>I am making a value judgement that I think no one should
>commit Self
>>Immolation under any circumstances and in no instance should
>we
>>encourage, applaud, romanticize, ennoble the act of
>Self-Immolation no
>>matter how righteous the cause. This is my first major
>point.
>
>I think there's a huge difference between committing
>self-immolation because you are actively being severely
>repressed and that you are completely powerless to stop it and
>being alive under those conditions is intolerable
>
>-and-
>
>A 25 year old guy driving his kid to the Israeli embassy in
>the US and live-streaming it on his own channel and uploading
>it to a blog doesn't reach that very high bar *in my eyes.*
>Looks like a TON of folks in here disagree.
>
>If a senior Hamas leader set him self on fire I might be able
>to see that as a possible act of political protest. Or a
>member of the Israeli Knesset, or Israeli activist. Or just
>Gazans/Palestinians.
>
>This, TO ME, seems like the wrong approach in the U.S. where
>he had very little involvement of what is going on - and he
>could have protested in literally 1000s of other ways and
>maybe made a difference.
>
>This seems like he was taking on himself to show *HIS*
>sacrifice - that it was about *him* - that's how it seems to
>*me.*
>
>>and in no instance should we
>>encourage, applaud, romanticize, ennoble the act of
>Self-Immolation no
>>matter how righteous the cause.
>
>100%, with a few small allowances.
>


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

  

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Walleye
Charter member
15521 posts
Mon Mar-04-24 06:13 AM

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150. "My primary interest is not doing this"
In response to Reply # 115


          

>It would be great if we could s set the War in Gaza aside for
>a second because I am in total agreement with this kid and
>everyone else here who are saying that a genocide is occurring
>in Gaza and it's happening with material US Support.

No. I won't set it aside. It's necessary context for understanding what he did as a political act.

______________________________

"Walleye, a lot of things are going to go wrong in your life that technically aren't your fault. Always remember that this doesn't make you any less of an idiot"

--Walleye's Dad

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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Mon Mar-04-24 01:05 PM

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152. "I agree it's a political act. "
In response to Reply # 150


  

          

It's a political act of an unwell person. But we can keep it much simpler.

My only question to you is, do you have an opinion on whether this kid SHOULD or SHOULD NOT have done this?

I concede it will happen from time to time, maybe even more going forward, but do you have an opinion as to whether we as a society should discourage this sort of political act?



**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

  

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AbdulJaleel
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Thu Mar-07-24 02:04 PM

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155. "he was better off taking shahadah"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

www.instagram.com/schemeofthings

  

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speedlaws07
Member since Aug 15th 2006
3233 posts
Sun Mar-10-24 11:19 AM

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157. "For a slight dive into the history of self immolation"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

This could happen here did a couple of pods on the topic

https://open.spotify.com/episode/0dYQOZYaoYYFnATBXwb3Lt?si=tNT6zSsVQr2xxPd8omIX8Q

under the influence 2k9

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OuWXCrp-p5M

  

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NorthWeezy
Member since Dec 04th 2005
5485 posts
Mon Mar-11-24 03:35 AM

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158. "Palestinian town of Jericho names street after US soldier who set himsel..."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2024/mar/10/palestinian-town-of-jericho-names-street-after-us-airman-who-set-himself-on-fire

The Palestinian town of Jericho has named a street after Aaron Bushnell, the US air force member who set himself on fire outside the Israeli embassy in Washington to protest against the war in Gaza.
The 25-year-old, who died on 25 February, “sacrificed everything” for Palestinians, said the mayor of Jericho, Abdul Karim Sidr, as the street sign was unveiled on Sunday.
“We didn’t know him, and he didn’t know us. There were no social, economic or political ties between us. What we share is a love for freedom and a desire to stand against these attacks ,” the mayor told a small crowd gathered on the new Aaron Bushnell Road.
Bushnell livestreamed his self-immolation on the social media platform Twitch, declaring he would “no longer be complicit in genocide” and shouting “free Palestine” as he started the fire. Law enforcement officials put out the flames, but he died in hospital several hours later.

……………….,,
http://gravalicious.tumblr.com/archive

"If you're not loving someone, you're wasting your time." - Dennis Brown

  

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naame
Charter member
21017 posts
Sat Mar-23-24 07:28 PM

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159. "to me, this is better than what he was being used for"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

he knew that he was being used to support a homicidal colonialist regime and decided to reject the entirety of it. I admire his courage and stand for justice.
 
America has imported more warlord theocracy from Afghanistan than it has exported democracy.

  

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stravinskian
Member since Feb 24th 2003
12698 posts
Sun Mar-24-24 11:55 AM

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160. "It's just a suicide. People want it to be more, but it isn't."
In response to Reply # 0


          

I'm not gonna call it mental illness, or even despair. The real reason people do it is hard to define, and it's naive to assume it's always irrational. But if his primary goal was political, he knew very well that there were many, far more effective ways to make that political point. Of course he cared about the war, but that element was a part of the "how", and the "how" is the happy side. The how is the self-indulgent part that we relish as a distraction from the "what."

I can only speak from my own experience, but I do have some. There was a suicide in my household when I was young. I've tried to make sense of it ever since. And for my whole adult life I've suffered from the same depression that caused it in him. I'm not medicated (yet), because fuck that (for now), and I'm too aspie for therapy. I'm doing fine, muddling through, no immediate danger. But I have extensive "how" thoughts on about a weekly basis. They almost always include a political element. They're cheap, they're easy, they're retcons on a much deeper and more mysterious story. If I were to go through with it (and again, I don't plan to!), I'd try damn hard to make people think I had a specific reason. I'd be trying to fool them, and I'd be fooling myself.

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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Mon Mar-25-24 10:47 AM

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161. "Thanks man. "
In response to Reply # 160


  

          

From easily one of the smartest cats here, it's good to hear such a practical, simple personal breakdown based on lived experience.

Keep your head up. You are a valuable part of this community and I know IRL communities as well.

**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

  

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PROMO
Charter member
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Mon Mar-25-24 11:20 AM

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162. "you're so funny."
In response to Reply # 161


  

          

  

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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
79560 posts
Mon Mar-25-24 09:18 PM

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163. "I'm not touching any parts of that post"
In response to Reply # 162


          

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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JayEmm
Member since Feb 06th 2004
3291 posts
Fri Apr-19-24 02:44 PM

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164. "Man sets himself on fire outside Trump trial courthouse."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-WXsOiQkWE

"I have set myself on fire outside the Trump Trial"

https://theponzipapers.substack.com/p/i-have-set-myself-on-fire-outside

My name is Max Azzarello, and I am an investigative researcher who has set himself on fire outside of the Trump trial in Manhattan.

This extreme act of protest is to draw attention to an urgent and important discovery:

We are victims of a totalitarian con, and our own government (along with many of their allies) is about to hit us with an apocalyptic fascist world coup.

These claims sound like fantastical conspiracy theory, but they are not. They are proof of conspiracy. If you investigate this mountain of research, you will prove them too. If you learn a great deal about Ponzi schemes, you will discover that our life is a lie. If you follow this story and the links below, you will discover the rotten truth of ‘post-truth America’. You will learn the scariest and stupidest story in world history. And you will realize that we are all in a desperate state of emergency that requires your action.

To my friends and family, witnesses and first responders, I deeply apologize for inflicting this pain upon you. But I assure you it is a drop in the bucket compared to what our government intends to inflict.

Because these words are true, this is an act of revolution.

--

Last March, a billionaire named Peter Thiel started a bank run on Silicon Valley Bank. I knew enough about Thiel that I found this incredibly suspicious: My hunch was that this was intentional, though I couldn’t fathom why.

I began investigating online, and quickly found cryptocurrency’s fingerprints all over it. The bank run occurred just days after Silvergate Bank – which catered almost exclusively to crypto companies – collapsed. Meanwhile, several crypto cheerleaders were all over financial media warning of a regional banking crisis, and nobody in media was addressing the clear crypto connections.

I dug deep into the financials of Thiel’s venture capital firm Founders Fund and eventually uncovered the following, all proven many times over.

Cryptocurrency is our first planetary multi-trillion-dollar Ponzi scheme. It was expressly created for this purpose by a laundry list of rich and powerful people out of Stanford/Silicon Valley and Harvard/Facebook.

The March 2023 bank failures were all intentional: the banks were used to move out stolen Ponzi money. This signals that they’re no longer dumping cash in to keep the cryptocurrency Ponzi afloat, and that it will soon go insolvent, as all Ponzis must.

When the Ponzi scheme goes insolvent, it will take down half the stock market with it: The perpetrators used their major companies to pipe into the blockchain so they could funnel money out from the crypto exchanges. This includes Google, Tesla, Apple, PayPal, Facebook, Disney, Walmart, Target, InBev, Zoom, and countless others.

It is a Ponzi scheme so large that it created global inflation, which is why the price of Bitcoin has been a remarkable leading indicator for inflation rates. Victims who bought crypto don’t realize their money has already been stolen, so the money gets double-counted by the victims and the criminals who stole it.

As it turns out, our elites are awash in Ponzi schemes. Stanford’s StartX.com investment fund and Jeffrey Epstein’s ‘Program for Evolutionary Dynamics’ he ran at Harvard are both fake-science Ponzi factories that these schools have invested billions in: They are filled with fraudulent companies that use smoke and mirrors to promise miraculous new technology, but always collapse while the perpetrators only get richer.

Funneling trillions of dollars in stolen cash through the stock market created the largest stock-market anomaly in history. The stock chart signature of a Ponzi scheme is a massive increase (while they stack up cash) and then a massive fall (as they funnel out the stolen cash). This chart shape appeared in all the companies listed above. In order to explain the massive anomaly, our criminal government unleashed COVID on the world and told us these were the “stay at home stocks.”

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Ponzi schemes are vicious beasts, and cryptocurrency is history’s largest Ponzi by orders of magnitude. It could best be described as an economic doomsday device, intentionally made to shatter the world economy.

The U.S. government is fully involved in this totalitarian con: To illustrate its bipartisan support, I’ll note that nearly every participant of the Clinton Global Initiative has ties to cryptocurrency, while two of the biggest tech VCs who participated are Trump associates Josh Kushner and Anthony Scaramucci.

To better understand our form of government, I will point you to one of the most astonishing pieces of stand-alone evidence I’ve found: Arkansas Governor Bill Clinton’s 1988 DNC speech where he nominated Mike Dukakis for president against George H.W. Bush. The speech is a vile, mean-spirited roast of Dukakis that makes no sense whatsoever: For Clinton to ruthlessly attack a member of his own party should have been political suicide, and he repeatedly mocks Dukakis’ noble and earnest qualities.

Notably, actor Rob Lowe, who was supporting Dukakis, was victim of a teen sex blackmail operation at the DNC that year. Since we know Clinton is a close associate with teen sex blackmail artist Jeffrey Epstein, we can suddenly make perfect sense of the nonsensical speech by applying this lens: Bill Clinton is a cocky mob boss who blackmailed Mike Dukakis because Dukakis thought his job was to help the public. He teases out the future public revelation that Kitty Dukakis drank rubbing alcohol, and offers a strange anecdote about the crack epidemic that reveals he is an exceedingly proud drug runner.

What does this revelation tell us? That our government is conning us completely. That Bill Clinton was secretly on (former CIA Director) George H.W. Bush’s side, and that the Democrat vs. Republican division has been entirely manufactured ever since: Clinton is with Bush; Gore is with Bush; Trump is with Hillary, and so on. When they present themselves in public, they are acting as characters that are against one another, practicing kayfabe as wrestlers do.

As it turns out, we have a secret kleptocracy: Both parties are run by financial criminals whose only goals are to divide, deceive, and bleed us dry. They divide the public against itself and blame the other party while everything gets worse and more expensive and handful of people take all the money.

Since it is fully parasitic, a secret kleptocracy is an incredibly unstable form of government – left to its own devices, it can only lead to fascism or failed state.

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One of the key findings of this research is that Harvard University is one of the largest organized crime fronts in history, which is how they churn out billionaires – it’s a major hub of this sprawling criminal network.

As it turns out, dozens of the writers of The Simpsons went to Harvard. So I asked myself the question: If The Simpsons served the interests of organized crime, how would it do so?

Well, it offers a dysfunctional family suffering from moral decay, a community incapable of solving its problems, a worker drone who slaves away for an evil billionaire, and cathartic laughs for our poor collective circumstances.

There are some notable specifics as it relates to this research, too: In Marge vs. The Monorail, the townsfolk are too oafish and divided to invest in the town’s needs (fix Main Street) and fall for the charms of a dazzling showman with a bogus monorail Ponzi scheme. When we know that the show is closely linked to an organization that invests billions of dollars in Ponzi factories, this becomes quite damning.

In Lisa the Iconoclast, Lisa discovers that town founder Jebediah Springfield was a secret criminal con artist, and that the townsfolk’s lives are a lie. Realizing this is an important discovery, she desperately tries to get the townsfolk to listen to her. But they meet her with hostility, apathy, disbelief, and partisanship and she fails to get through to them. Ultimately, she realizes the town is so far gone that perhaps it’s better for them to be lied to by con artists, and she keeps the secret to herself.

And here I’ve been, like Lisa Simpson, desperately trying to get friends, family, and the public to believe the proof of a totalitarian con I’m trying to show them, and they’ve turned away with hostility, apathy, disbelief, and partisanship.

And so, we realize the criminal truth of The Simpsons: Our elites are telling us that our eroding collective circumstances are our own fault, and we can’t do anything about it, while they steal the American Dream from us. It is, for lack of a more elegant word, brainwashing.



Lastly, we string these major discoveries together: Cryptocurrency is an economic doomsday device; our government is a secret kleptocracy; The Simpsons exists to brainwash us. From there, the only research we need is critical thinking and we’re able to piece together the true story of our circumstances.

Consider America since 1988: Institutions like healthcare and universities have become parasitic in their skyrocketing prices. News media tells us to be angry and tribalized. Daytime television warns us of moral decay. Local news tell us to fear our neighbors. The Simpsons tells us we’re too oafish and divided to save the American Dream. Seinfeld tells us to celebrate the assholes and be irritated by all the normal people around us. “Reality” TV tells us that real life is filled with hedonism and strife.

Social media, owned by crypto criminals like Mark Zuckerberg and Elon Musk, is flooded with nonsense conspiracy theories and memes reminding us that we are hopeless, helpless, anxious, depressed, ironic, scared, apathetic, escapist, lonely, misguided, and jaded, telling us we can’t do anything but have a laugh at our circumstances.

Liberals mock the hypocrisy of conservatives; conservatives mock the hypocrisy of liberals, and our collective circumstances erode. The left shouts “All Cops Are Bastards,” which ensures they’ll be hated by the police and the public (and flies in the face of leftist theory). The public’s distrust of the government is at an all-time high, but so is the belief that we are helpless to do anything about it.

And with all this, a sharp rise in apocalyptic messaging: Climate change will kill us all; COVID will kill us all; vaccines will kill us all; AI will kill us all – no matter the bubbles we ascribe to, we’re bombarded with existential crises with no solutions. We’ve seen a surge in apocalyptic film, literature, and video games that tell us there is no way out of our poor circumstances but total societal breakdown. Zombies tell us that the public is our enemy. If you go to your nearest convenience store, you can buy a can of water called “Liquid Death.”

This is our rotten farce: For our entire lives, we have been flooded with media designed to slowly steer us into a world where the American Dream was dead, where the public was fully divided against itself, where everybody believed we were powerless to do anything about our worsening circumstances. It is all so they can organize an unprecedented, apocalyptic rug pull on the entire populace as they pivot to fascism, which is perhaps best understood as kleptocracy at the barrel of a gun.

When we piece it all together, we understand the truth: We are in a totalitarian doomsday cult.

Why on earth would our elites do this? There are many reasons, but the simplest is because capitalism is unsustainable, and they knew it: Climate change and resource extraction would catch up eventually. So, they never intended to sustain it. They knew all along that they would gobble up all the wealth they could, and then yank the rug out from under us so they could pivot to a hellish fascist dystopia.



Things escalated wildly in 1988 when former CIA Director George H.W. Bush got the White House, but this plan had been in action long prior:

Why is Stanley Kubrick’s comedy about mutually assured destruction called Dr. Strangelove: Or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb? Because he was a cocky secret fascist who was getting us to stop worrying and love the bomb. Why did he make A Clockwork Orange? So we’d rejoice at ultra-violence designed to desensitize us to the horrors of the world.

Why were the Manson Family murders crawling with cover-ups and intelligence agents? Because our government wanted to make us fear for our lives and believe that hippies are deranged psychopaths.

Why did Walt Disney produce a fraudulent documentary that told us Lemmings follow each other off cliffs? So we would believe it.

Why did The Beatles tell us to fear the taxman, to scoff at revolution, chase nonsense conspiracy theories, and that happiness is a warm gun? So we would believe it.

Why did Easy Rider tell us that the hippie movement was dead? So we would believe it.

Why did Chinatown end with defeatism in the face of massive corruption? So we would believe it.

Why did George Orwell tell us of a hellish future of totalitarian control that we are powerless to stop? So we would believe it.

Why did Wall Street tell us “greed is good”? So we would believe it.

Why did Do The Right Thing tell us we’re all racially tribalized? So we would believe it.

Why did Simpsons creator Matt Groening make a comic strip called Life in Hell? So we would believe it.

And on, and on, and on, and on. When it comes to any popular media, if you ask yourself the question, “Why would secret doomsday cult kleptocrats want the public to consume this?”, you will find your answers.



This is obviously very bad news, but the biggest lie we’ve been told is that we are powerless. We’ve got one way out of hellworld, and that’s for the public to realize that we’ve been conned completely so we can build a united movement that shatters every lie they’ve told us, mocks this rotten farce as loudly as it deserves, and aims at nothing short of abolishing our criminal government so we can build one that serves the public.

To understand this story is to see right through the con, to become immune to the endless sea of criminal propaganda, and to feel the great joy and power that comes with freedom.

If a small number of people quickly put on these truth-colored glasses, we are in for an unimaginably bright future. If not, we get an apocalypse.

For more information, I’ve put together this booklet that includes other major findings and a map to a sea of proof, along with all the other essays on this site.

For the true history of America since the end of World War II, see here.

To see this discovery unfold in real-time, along with further explanations, hundreds of pieces of evidence not covered here, advice, inspiration, political theory, and the heart and soul of a man escaping history’s largest doomsday cult, see my Instagram story highlights. I apologize for leaving things so scattered, but this has been an exhausting affair. So long as you understand this (true) ideology, you will be able to learn the whole story.

Here is a federal lawsuit I filed against dozens of perpetrators of the cryptocurrency Ponzi – not for litigation, but just to preserve the information and attach my name to it. I was terrified and hadn’t slept in days and it shows, but it served its purpose of keeping myself alive long enough to keep learning and telling this story.

I no longer have my original research files from the crypto rabbit hole. If you want to see them, you’ll have to get my laptop back from the government. Ask them how they got it - it’s a very fun story.

I hope you know how powerful you are. I wish you a hell of a lot more than luck.

Max Azzarello

  

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T Reynolds
Member since Apr 16th 2007
42760 posts
Fri Apr-19-24 03:58 PM

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165. "LOL came to post this new immolation drop"
In response to Reply # 164


  

          

Let's see how crazy this shit turns out to be

Imma read now

  

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rdhull
Charter member
33131 posts
Fri Apr-19-24 04:41 PM

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166. "RE: LOL came to post this new immolation drop"
In response to Reply # 165


  

          

>Let's see how crazy this shit turns out to be
>
>Imma read now

I feel if I read that, I would go insane

  

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