great show, I learned a lot from this any hip hop head show check it out

As far is the GOAT female rapper its something I've thought a lot about it and we've probably discussed it here before...

I as far as I'm concerned nobody is fucking with Lauryn in her prime. I know she doesn't show up for shows now and I know she really only had 1 solo album but that album was a masterpiece. Prior to that she literally made the Fugees they would've been nothing without her. Lyrically not a lot of male MC's are messing with her let alone other women.

After her gotta give props to MC Lyte, I think she was the first lady to have a solo album and has been holding it down ever since...

Have to acknowledge Queen Latifah with how she started and since branched out to so many other things...

other ladies like Kim, Foxy, Missy, Nikki, Cardi and Megan have put their mark on the game...

The Brandy I Wanna Be Down Remix featuring MC Lyte, Yo-Yo, and Queen Latifa was one of the seminal performances in hip hop:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zfE2gBhwsM4
even with a young Ray J pointlessy dancing around in the back, Brandy always held her lil bro down lol

Later on Lil' Kim's Ladie's Night featuring Left Eye, Da Brat(the first platinum female rapper), Missy Elliot and Angie Martinez was dope too, hella cameos in that video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=me3CPl_i4C4

________________________________________
"Take the surprise out your voice Shaq."-The REAL CP3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2H5K-BUMS0

Like you said she had 1 solo album. She wasn’t even rapping on all the songs. She was a good MC if I recall correctly (I honestly haven’t listened to The Fugees in a minute and I need to revisit her album) but to put her over MCs with a longer catalog is crazy to me.

Lyte, Latifah, Kim, maybe Foxy, maybe Jean Grae deserve a higher spot imo. Maybe others I can’t think of now as well.

might as well be considered hers because they are nothing without her, AND she could sing and act

________________________________________
"Take the surprise out your voice Shaq."-The REAL CP3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2H5K-BUMS0

unless they weren't there when Lauryn was on top of the game.

Wasn't no one fucking with her lyrically

Now the shows these last 20 years? yeah.. I don't get the hype to gamble on a show with her these days.

as far as the rest. I would put MC Lyte second and Queen Latifah 3rd. That first Latifah album was MY SHIT!!!

and humble brag, I had Jean Gray in my room playing Tekken in college back when she was in Natural Elements.

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TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

Especially with so little rap from her to assess. Being able to act & sing doesn’t make her a better MC

To each his own

Some people aren't built to make solo albums.. especially if they started out in groups.

When a lot of rappers go solo, all that drive and work ethic is solely on them. The word on Outkast is Big Boi was always in the studio and had to beg Dre to come in and work.

Fugees.. WyClef was the leader and drove that group.

This is why we see Wyclef and Big Boi doing much more work once the groups broke up and Lauryn and Dre are out in the wind half the time.

I think Lauryn and Dre are damn near twins. Both of them are incredibly gifted but I guarantee neither of these 2 were the ones booking studio time when they were in their groups. I bet both were just showing up and spitting heat.

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TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

No really but cmon. How would I be old enough to know Latifah, Lyte, Kim and NOT Lauryn?

She’s cool, I thought Wyclef got his shine on on The Score as well. Pras even had some good contributions.

She’s overhyped, she barely rapped. She’s nice but so is Latifah who has more solo rap albums.

when they were at the height of their fame.

The way you keep taking about Lauryn sounds like someone who heard about her talents back in the day and went back and was like "that's it?"

the question was best lyrically, not who made the most albums.

I don't think she is overrated at all lyrically.

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TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

and just glossed over Lauryn? I’m sure many would rank other female MCs over Lauryn and are older than I am.

I was fairly young when Lauryn dropped The Miseducation and as I mentioned earlier I need to revisit it. I believe that I might prefer The Score

The question was ‘who’s the best/GOAT female MC?’ Even if it was ‘who’s the best lyrically?’ I’d still go with the MCs I mentioned above. Catalog does matter as well. Plenty of MCs have had good lyrical performances but don’t have the catalog or variety that others have and this factors into ranking. I mean CL Smooth is a good rapper but far from the GOAT. Not saying that Lauryn is the CL Smooth of female MCs but she also isn’t the GOAT imo

________________________________________
"Take the surprise out your voice Shaq."-The REAL CP3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2H5K-BUMS0

And are you saying you need to be 40+ to properly appreciate Lauryn?

You act as if every older hip-hop fan believes Lauryn is the GOAT

I’d argue that many of the older generation see Lyte as the GOAT. I also think that many younger people prefer Lauryn to other MCs of her time and before her time

Kim was poppin around the same time and some older people consider her the GOAT

>And are you saying you need to be 40+ to properly appreciate
>Lauryn?

Miseducation was 25 years ago, if you weren't an adult during that time you just didn't feel it the same

>You act as if every older hip-hop fan believes Lauryn is the
>GOAT
>
>I’d argue that many of the older generation see Lyte as the
>GOAT. I also think that many younger people prefer Lauryn to
>other MCs of her time and before her time
>
>Kim was poppin around the same time and some older people
>consider her the GOAT

again its all about opinions, we will never all agree on these types of things

________________________________________
"Take the surprise out your voice Shaq."-The REAL CP3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2H5K-BUMS0

Respect

but imagine someone saying they dont get the hype for Kim or Nikki when making a top 10 and they are on it.

what would you say to that?

cmon.. you would see it as an old head hatin or a youngin who had no idea wtf they were talking about.

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TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

I didn’t say Lauryn isn’t top ten. IDK if I’d include her though. I’d have to think about it.

Also let me clarify, I don’t get the hype for Lauryn being considered the best MC. I agree that she’s a great talent.

I wouldn’t be incredulous if someone left Nicki out of a top ten. I’m from the old school, I wouldn’t think the old head was necessarily hatin. I’d think of it as a different perspective. As for the youngsters leaving someone like Nicki out of top ten, I’d think they may place a higher value on criteria other than raw talent if the the MCs in their top ten were all older and had been rapping longer than Nicki

Also Nicki is definitely more prominent in rap than Lauryn was. That being said, I’d take Lauryn’s bars over Nicki’s. Not sure where I’d rank them, maybe they’d both be top ten. Still not the GOAT though

about stuff that no other mainstream female rapper was talking about at the time, we were coming of the Kim/Foxy era and Lauryn came in not talking about material things or sexuality.

A few hardcore hip hop heads had heard her on the Fugees first album but on The Score she literally kicked the door in. People were thirsty for her to do more and when she released her solo album a couple years later she didn't disappoint.

And yes she wasn't just a rapper some of the best songs were things like Ex-Factor, like I said if you were an adult at the time that shit hit so hard lol. But lyrically she still brought it too. I feel like her duality as an artist helped her appeal.

>I didn’t say Lauryn isn’t top ten. IDK if I’d include
>her though. I’d have to think about it.
>
>Also let me clarify, I don’t get the hype for Lauryn being
>considered the best MC. I agree that she’s a great talent.
>
>
>I wouldn’t be incredulous if someone left Nicki out of a top
>ten. I’m from the old school, I wouldn’t think the old
>head was necessarily hatin. I’d think of it as a different
>perspective. As for the youngsters leaving someone like Nicki
>out of top ten, I’d think they may place a higher value on
>criteria other than raw talent if the the MCs in their top ten
>were all older and had been rapping longer than Nicki
>
>Also Nicki is definitely more prominent in rap than Lauryn
>was. That being said, I’d take Lauryn’s bars over
>Nicki’s. Not sure where I’d rank them, maybe they’d
>both be top ten. Still not the GOAT though
>
>

________________________________________
"Take the surprise out your voice Shaq."-The REAL CP3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2H5K-BUMS0

and keep talking about her singing and acting.

The Score is definitely her finest moment IMO lyrically but if you were young when Miseducation came out it means you were a baby when The Score dropped.

I definitely expect old heads to lean towards Lyte or Latifah. That makes sense.

I’m an old head so Lyte, Queen and Lauryn are at the top of my list.

but since I’m old I chuckle when folks meh De La Souls first album and love Buhloon Mindstate which was just okay to me.. but if you were 12 to 16 its prolly a masterpiece to them. Same with Tribe. Some folks like Beats Rhymes and Life or Love movement and those are bad albums to people who grew up on Peoples Instinctive, MM and Low End.


tldr.. the fact you said you didn’t get the hype shows your age.

I dont think 99% of hip hop fans would say they didn’t get the hype for Lauryn if they were of age when she hit the scene. She was legendary fam.

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TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

and that was in response to the OP mentioning it.

I provided my clarification above. I just don’t view her as the GOAT.

I was not a baby during The Score. I remember that it was pretty important when it dropped although I didn’t check for it until later.

I just place heavy importance on body of work. I’d take 2Pac over Big, Scarface over 3K, and I’d place Too $hort in my top ten which is obviously above a lot of other MCs.

I guess I’d take Mos Def over Kweli which may seem hypocritical. At least Mos put out a few albums before he took off.

Lauryn has some dope raps but it wasn’t the reason she blew up and it obviously wasn’t her focus.

Maybe it’s age but I’m no spring chicken

did acting and singing make Latifah better? did Cube and Common's acting make them better MC's?

its like you are trying to slight folks opinion of her because she wasn't actually that good at rapping.

and its not about output because plenty of artist have longer catalogs and it didn't make them better lyrically.

lastly, when you say, (and I'm paraphrasing)... "I think she was nice on the score, I have to go back and listen"... YOU THINK???

cmon nigga, that's like saying "I think Nas was aight on Illmatic"

lmao


as far as acting is concerned. I think Ice T said it best. You have to be pretty fucking arrogant to turn down $250K an episode when being criticized for playing a cop.

I think Lauryn did one movie with Whoopi but who the hell wouldn't jump at the chance to make a ton of money up front vs fighting with a label for money on the backend? You do know her court case threw a wrench in her career and handcuffed her.

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TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

How does singing and acting make her the GOAT MC? I don’t get why that is an issue.

So I’d say no to your questions about Latifah, Common, and Cube. Cube and Common also didn’t stop rapping.

I haven’t knocked her rap skills. I said she didn’t rap much in the grand scheme.

In my opinion output matters. I’m not saying it’s the only criteria that matters.

I said I need to go back to The Miseducation not The Score, which I have a better memory of. However, I really should go back to both to see how much she’s singing vs rapping and how much of the Fugees album she’s actually on.

Again, I’m not criticizing her for acting just like I don’t think less of 3K for acting. They just don’t have the output of other MCs who may be nice lyrically as well.

Nas for example is nice and he has heavy output. I think he’s the best all things considered. I probably would not rank him as highly if he only had Illmatic, the Firm Album and another group album.

I said she’s nice not aight like you said in your Nas reference above. And that’s not like saying Nas was aight on Illmatic. Illmatic is wholly a rap which was followed up with a similar if not better rap performance.

I’m sure she had her reasons for falling back but reality is Latifah has more rap verses than her regardless of everything else. If if was a fifth, Len Bias might’ve been nicer than Jordan *shrug*

truth said AND she can sing and act. But we all know lyrically she was a monster.. well, maybe you dont because you keep saying you have to go back. Her lyricism was always on point, the singing was a bonus because it is music after all.

she rapped on every song on The Score.

She just sang Killing Me Softly and the hook on Ready or Not where she also had a verse.

Weird you need to see how much she was on the album. She is the reason that shit blew up, she was all over it. Pras was not the reason folks dig the Fugees… lol.

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TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

I get that Lauryn has a loyal and dedicated fanbase. You are a supporter of hers; I don’t think she’s the GOAT and I’m not the only one who feels that way

She wasn’t on No Woman No Cry if I recall correctly so she may have about 11 verses on The Score give or take a few which is cool but not GOAT status imo. I think Wyclef is just as important to that album being great. She sang more on The Miseducation, which is nevertheless a dope album.

I still don’t get the GOAT talk for her but I do feel she is a quality lyricist

for an artist

I’m not a 2Pac fan but I would never say I dont get the hype for him regardless of the discussion being had.

Then proceed to admit I need to go back because I cant recall what they contributed to on a 25 mill selling album?

lmao

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TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

________________________________________
"Take the surprise out your voice Shaq."-The REAL CP3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2H5K-BUMS0

if we’re talking the 13 track version

She did have two verses on at least one song but that wasn’t common

Edit: 11 isn’t bad btw, I would assume most good rap albums may have around 20 to 30 verses. Over the course of her career she may have 40-50 rap verses which may all be great, just considerably less than others who may also be good MCs.

Then again some consider BIG the best MC and he had about 3 disks of material so maybe?

>if we’re talking the 13 track version
>
>She did have two verses on at least one song but that wasn’t
>common
>
>Edit: 11 isn’t bad btw, I would assume most good rap albums
>may have around 20 to 30 verses. Over the course of her
>career she may have 40-50 rap verses which may all be great,
>just considerably less than others who may also be good MCs.
>
>Then again some consider BIG the best MC and he had about 3
>disks of material so maybe?

if that

________________________________________
"Take the surprise out your voice Shaq."-The REAL CP3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2H5K-BUMS0

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TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

Obviously, Lauryn is usually at the top of the list in this conversation for good reason. It's interesting, because you've got 2 Fugees albums, 1 solo album (+ an Unplugged album where she doesn't rap), and guest verses. It's really not all that outside the Fugees universe, though it's an incredible resume.

Of course - Lyte, Yo Yo, Latifah, Kim, Foxy, etc all have arguments too. But it's pretty hard to argue against Nikki IMO. I don't personally like most of her stuff, and think she leaned into the pop star thing pretty hard. But when she's rapping, she is insanely skilled and clearly has had immense commercial success (as well as longevity).

I've said this before, but we were robbed of a Lady of Rage solo album while she was in her prime, too.

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17x NBA Champions

And its mainly because of her longevity (and ability). Like her career of putting out big songs is probably twice as long as everyone else's.

Now I think the case against her is that she really didn't carve a lane very different from Foxy and Lil' Kim and she didn't show the range of a Lauryn Hill but pure rapping ability I would give her a slight edge over Lauryn Hill.

But yeah. I really never dug her music, persona and impact.

**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

that separate her, I feel like another rapper could try to do her same lyrics and it wouldn't work

________________________________________
"Take the surprise out your voice Shaq."-The REAL CP3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2H5K-BUMS0

>Obviously, Lauryn is usually at the top of the list in this
>conversation for good reason. It's interesting, because you've
>got 2 Fugees albums, 1 solo album (+ an Unplugged album where
>she doesn't rap), and guest verses. It's really not all that
>outside the Fugees universe, though it's an incredible resume.
>
>
>Of course - Lyte, Yo Yo, Latifah, Kim, Foxy, etc all have
>arguments too. But it's pretty hard to argue against Nikki
>IMO. I don't personally like most of her stuff, and think she
>leaned into the pop star thing pretty hard. But when she's
>rapping, she is insanely skilled and clearly has had immense
>commercial success (as well as longevity).
>
>I've said this before, but we were robbed of a Lady of Rage
>solo album while she was in her prime, too.

^^^this too I feel like Rage is criminally slept on, Mia X from No Limit also

________________________________________
"Take the surprise out your voice Shaq."-The REAL CP3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2H5K-BUMS0

Latifah, Lyte, L Boogie,

Yes


Kim, Foxy and Nikki

No

It makes GOAT watered down when all are included.

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Signature

Nikki too

but Kim and Foxy were meh to me lyrically.

Not really a Nikki fan but she had that flow even tho I hated it at times.

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TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

>Nikki too
>
>but Kim and Foxy were meh to me lyrically.

Like I said it's all about opinions because Missy was "meh" to me lyrically compared to Kim and Foxy

>Not really a Nikki fan but she had that flow even tho I hated
>it at times.

________________________________________
"Take the surprise out your voice Shaq."-The REAL CP3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2H5K-BUMS0

but Nikki needs more if she is going to be on the list.

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Signature

I think she has a decent body of work nd enough early features that showed her lyrical ability. She went pop but she was spittin' on those mixtapes

not my type of artist but for the ladies I think she is easily top 10.

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

________________________________________
"Take the surprise out your voice Shaq."-The REAL CP3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2H5K-BUMS0

but there is no way you can like rap music and not admit she got a wicked flow when she wants to spit.

Island girl so she got that Busta, Heavy gift of gab.

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TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

>but there is no way you can like rap music and not admit she
>got a wicked flow when she wants to spit.
>
>Island girl so she got that Busta, Heavy gift of gab.

________________________________________
"Take the surprise out your voice Shaq."-The REAL CP3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2H5K-BUMS0

Going from spittin on mixtapes at the start of her career, to pop now

takes her off the list.

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Signature

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TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

A Pop star as GOAT ?


Billboard Rap GOAT


Rolling stones Rap GOAT

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Signature

The Goat when it comes to Women's rap group.

R.I.P. Loud But Wrong Guy
Dec 29th 2009 - Dec 17th 2017

________________________________________
"Take the surprise out your voice Shaq."-The REAL CP3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2H5K-BUMS0

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

I'm shocked them and the 69 boys never got a comeback run

R.I.P. Loud But Wrong Guy
Dec 29th 2009 - Dec 17th 2017

And to your point - criminally underrated.

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17x NBA Champions

and i love a lot of nikki's verses too, but come on now...

even her latest verse on nas' last album was fire

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=234OiGtOvII

At some point, longevity has to matter.

And I say that as a huge Lauryn fan.

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17x NBA Champions

I think if this discussion happened in the 90’s with movie enthusiasts you could have a healthy debate about it.

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TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

i'm reminded by something Andre 3k said recently about why he dreads having to write verses--which was because he felt like each one was like building a new house. That may sound pretentious af, but I agree. Some rappers make songs like they are standalone houses. You are meant to keep coming back to them because it encapsulates a whole vibe.

But realistically, how many of these "houses" can a rapper produce before their shit turns into Toll Brothers mcmansions? Because if we are being honest, most of these rappers aren't building nothing with longevity--its all scenery and set pieces. I want more of what Bruce Lee talked about as "emotional content," instead of artistic "exhibitionisms" and look at what I can do punchlines and flexes: even if I have to wait for it.

structures for longevity in music especially the rap game the artist almost has to branch out into other areas

________________________________________
"Take the surprise out your voice Shaq."-The REAL CP3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2H5K-BUMS0

you really see why most of these rappers try to get into acting. That contract game is funny and you can sell 10 million records and OWE the label money.

If someone is going to pay me 3 mill up front for an acting gig vs hoping to recoup 2 years after your record drops… that next album is going to wait.

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

>you really see why most of these rappers try to get into
>acting. That contract game is funny and you can sell 10
>million records and OWE the label money.

TLC was one of the biggest examples of that

>If someone is going to pay me 3 mill up front for an acting
>gig vs hoping to recoup 2 years after your record drops…
>that next album is going to wait.

Most don’t get that much for an acting gig but it’s a check, usually musicians make they’re money doing shows

________________________________________
"Take the surprise out your voice Shaq."-The REAL CP3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2H5K-BUMS0

MC Lyte is more well-rounded as a rapper. Lyte got lyrical songs and songs that go hard in the club.

Plus it's hard to evaluate Lauryn as a solo MC because all her best rhymes were in a group with the Fugees. Gotta include all of Lyte's features and collabs to be fair.

Joints like:
MC Lyte & Positive K - I'm Not Havin' It: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vmz_pTxB_MA

BDP, Stetsasonic, Kool Moe Dee, MC Lyte, Doug Fresh, Just-Ice, Heavy D, Chuck D - Self Destruction: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MmX5TgWsfEQ

Queen Latifah, Yo-Yo, TLC, MC Lyte, Nefertiti, Salt-N-Pepa, Patra, Meshell Ndegeocello - Freedom: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxyxqVDjSzs

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