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>>I questioned whether he was actually choked for that long.
>>That's one account. Another account is that the police were
>>there in six minutes. I seen a longer 4 minute video where
>>people were standing around his body a full minute without
>>police there. I just don't know and want to see an
>>investigation into what exactly happened.
>>
>>I want to know to what extent Neely was actually threatening
>>people.
>
>Even if he were threatening people, unless that threat was
>immediate and demonstrable, that doesn't justify the hold. The
>clip I saw showed him.... not putting up much of a fight. And
>what little fight I saw was two people holding his arms down,
>and him resisting that.
Yeah but he could have been immediately and demonstrably threatening people. We don't know. The video captures nothing that happened before the choke hold. There were 911 calls of people reporting him being violent with people. Again, my point is, WE don't know what happened.
>
>It would make a difference to me whether he was just
>>loud and making noise like you claim to know to be the case
>>(how sway?) or if he was actually threatening people.
>
>I find no evidence of him attacking or even seriously
>threatening anyone. Fox says an independent journalist stated
>he was threatening people.
>
>And what of it? A threat?
>Not an attack.
>A threat.
I don't think, and the law doesn't require, waiting until someone attacks someone to defend themselves or other. My fundamental question is, do Neely do something that warrant or justified a physical response (not choking, but a physical response).
>
>I find reports that he had a history of attacks- but the more
>of his history I read, the more I see that he was deeply
>troubled and in need of mental health services.
>
>If anything, that's someone who should have your sympathy.
>
>I did, however, find this:
>
>https://www.cnn.com/2023/05/05/us/jordan-neely-new-york-city-subway-chokehold-death-friday/index.html
>
>"On Monday afternoon, Neely was killed after being held in a
>chokehold by a Marine veteran on a subway after Neely got on
>the train and shouted at passengers that he was hungry,
>thirsty and fed up with having nothing. A witness told CNN
>Neely – who was experiencing homelessness, according to a
>source familiar with his case – did not harm anyone nor did
>they see him armed with any weapon."
>
>That's not everything- but it's something, and it's more than
>your questions have to offer as far as what actually went
>down.
Yes I am sympathetic of a person whose mother was murdered and he had to testify at her murderers trial. His story is extremely sad. In fact, I don't see how his life was going to end in a way other than him hurting himself or others. Dude seemed doomed. It's all sad.
But I can hold two ideas in my head at the same time. The other idea is that dude was a violent person who broke the face of a 67 year old woman. It's not just reported. Dude had a trial. Instead of jail he was sent to a treatment center that he ditched. All that to say we should abandon the narrative that this dude posed no threat to anyone. We don't know what he did on that train but he was already identified as a threat to himself and others. He should not be on the streets.
>
>>In the longer video I saw there were people standing around
>>while Penny had the chokehold and Neeley and the folks
>around
>>them didn't appear to think Neeley was dying.
>
>And they were demonstrably wrong.
>
>Were they trained in a relevant field that would give their
>perceptions some credibility?
>
>If they were, perhaps they should have their credentials
>revoked, because they were incorrect in their seeming
>assessment.
>
>I realize you're getting at my depiction of this as cold
>blooded murder, but all you're really demonstrating is apathy
>toward the process of what was factually a homicide.
>
>So we can toss out the characterization of "murder" and still
>arrive at the humane conclusion that this was just plain
>wrong.
Yeah dude we all see now in retrospect they were all wrong. But I also recognize it's easy to second guess and judge people after fact based on a 1 minute video than to empathize with how they felt in that situation. It's not difficult for me to empathize with these people because of my current experiences on the train. I am not quick to judge them not because they are experts, but because they are just regular people trying to make it to work.
>Someone
>>cautions Penny to be careful not to choke him and Penny says
>>something like he isn't on his neck and he can still breath.
>
>>The video doesn't look like a man murdering someone else and
>>folks standing around watching in horror (or cheering on).
>So
>>I have tons of questions about what exactly happened.
>
>Are they medical professionals?
>Do they have sufficient training to accurately guage how much
>danger he was actually in?
>Does Penny's statement that he wasn't on his neck mean that he
>wasn't?
>Is being on his neck the only way to suffocate the man?
>
>His statement is meaningless, and you should know that.
>
>Does it have to "look like a murder" to be a murder?
>
>No. Because looks can be deceiving.
Again, they aren't experts, just people trying to get to work. They all judged wrong but that's easy for folks to say who weren't there. I trust the instincts of the people who were there more than the folks online watching a 1 minute video after the fact.
>
>The bare minimum here is homicide, the actual ruling to this
>point, so it's not as though it's a huge leap to get to
>murder- regardless of what it "looks" like, and regardless of
>what the people involved thought or acted like.
>
>And fine- lets go with involuntary manslaughter. Let's ride
>with a weaker standard.
>
>Does that mean Neely deserved to be killed?
No man. I've never said Neely deserves to be killed!!Never been my point. Never said Penny was a hero. My main point is I want to wait and see what actually happened.
Even you are here conceding this might not be cold blooded murder but rather manslaughter which is my main point!!!
>
>>You say there he could be wilding and assaulting people and
>it
>>wouldn't matter
>
>I'll amend that, because context matters and there's some
>nuance to that. But that wouldn't be what this was, and what
>this was, wasn't that, not based on any report I've seen or
>heard apart from Fox, who cited an independent journalist, and
>I'm reluctant to accept their reporting on something like
>this.
Read more. There are varying different accounts. At the very least there are conflicting accounts. You say with a certainty what it was when my point is we don't have that certainty. Saying we don't have certainty isn't a defense of Penny.
>
>and I say someone would be totally justified
>>if he was assaulting people and someone attempted to subdue
>>him until the police arrived.
>
>Subdue and choke to death are two different things.
>
>Can we at least agree on that?
For sure.
>
>In that scenario he is liable if
>>he uses excessive force and does harm but there is a
>>difference between manslaughter v. premeditated murder.
>
>It doesn't have to be premeditated to be murder. But again,
>even with lower legal standards, the man was still killed.
>
>>people don't care about the difference but I am trained to
>and
>>we should all be glad courts make the distinction.
>
>Fam... Your last argument was a false dichotomy. A little
>sloppy, no?
>
>manslaughter and premeditated murder aren't the only options,
>yet that's how you framed it.
What are the other options? I mean the only other option I can think of is dude was justified and it was neither murder or manslaughter but I think that's a hard case to me.
I think from what we know it's probably manslaughter. I think dude was justified to try and subdue until the police arrived but he was probably criminally negligent in how he executed it and is responsible for the death. It's a nuanced position.
>
>Obviously we are all glad we have a court system in place to
>handle shit. And no, people won't always be happy with the way
>that system works. But framing this solely from a legal
>standpoint makes you come across as cold and calloused.
>Whether that's your intent is a different story, but that's
>the way it appears.
I get it. No one wants to hear nuance for stories like that. But folks should prepare themselves because I think its very unlikely that Penny is going to get charged with Murder. I don't think he walks, but I think murder will be very hard to prove based on the video.
>
>Perhaps you've dealt with this sort enough that it's hardened
>you to their plight.
>
>But you seem awfully game to defend the killer in this case,
>which is more problematic than simply being numb to the plight
>of those who are homeless and mentally ill to the degree that
>they become a public menace.
Yeah I don't think saying I doubt that Penny intended to kill Neely is defending him because I also think he was wreckless in his use of force and is liable for Neeley's death. I also think new information could emerge which changes my opinion.
>
>>And the racial dynamics aren't lost on me. But I would
>>probably feel the same way if the dynamics were different.
>The
>>thing is I am pretty consistent on these issues. When the
>>black woman was killed in Mexico by her black "friends" I
>>caught shit for saying I wanted to hear more details about
>>what happened and couldn't judge based on a 3o second video.
>
>>The same people who want to question my blackness here were
>>quick to throw Jonathan Majors under the bus because a
>drunken
>>white girl accused him of wrongdoing. There again I said I
>>wanted to see more.
>
>Fair enough. I'm not here questioning your Blackness or your
>commitment to Black people or any of that, to be clear. It's
>not my place to even evaluate that.
>
>>Finally, its hard to take shit online from a bunch of folks
>>who don't actually live here.
>
>Do you know where I live?
>Or work?
>
>San Bernardino, a city full of tent cities.
>
>I work for the welfare department.
>
>I have dealt with people like him in a professional capacity
>for years.
>
>For several years, I was the guy who would have to come hang
>around when someone was ramping up on one of my coworkers
>until security could come deal with it.
>
>To say nothing of what I see just out & about in this city. I
>see people like him while pumping gas several times a month at
>a minimum.
>
>I get approached on a regular basis, and people flip out if I
>don't give them money.
>
>I make sure my wife is gassed up as much as possible for that
>reason.
>
>You're far from the only one with significant proximity to
>this segment of the population.
>
>No, I don't ride the train, so I'm not a veritable hostage to
>that degree. But the point is, I deal with it enough in a
>professional and personal capacity.
Yeah I wasn't talking about you specifically. You haven't been name calling and all that but rather came with reasonable questions.
>
>As for the rest of his history, which I have also read about,
>the details we have so far about *this* particular incident
>don't warrant putting him in a choke.
No. I mention to refute the idea of people saying they know with certainty that he wouldn't have harmed anyone. Again, we don't know. We weren't there. We didn't see footage before the chokehold.
>
>>I think folks pushing the narrative that Jordan was merely a
>>MJJ Impersonator acting out and posed no threat to anyone
>are
>>talking out there ass. They don't know that. You don't
>know
>>that.
>
>Where are the credible reports that he WAS an *actual* threat
>in that moment?
>He certainly wasn't a threat during the choke, from what I
>saw.
>
>>In fact, we do know that he has a history of
>>assaulting women.
>>So given all that, yeah I don't mind waiting to hear the
>full
>>story before making my mind up about what happened.
>
>You seem heavily tilted toward one side in particular though,
>and it's not the victim's.
I don't think so. Or maybe it is. I don't know. But what have I said right here after going into more detail about my position do you actually disagree with?
**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson
"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"
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