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Subject: "Yall support more surveillance to combat crime?" Previous topic | Next topic
Buddy_Gilapagos
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Fri Oct-21-22 10:44 AM

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"Poll question: Yall support more surveillance to combat crime?"


  

          

New York is going to add cameras to everyone subway car.

https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/tech-news/new-york-subway-cameras-surveillance-mta-train-cars-hochul-rcna48582


Matthew Iglesia wrote about more surveillance and pointed to the effectiveness of adding people charged with a felony to a DNA database.

https://www.slowboring.com/p/the-best-way-to-end-mass-incarceration?utm_source=post-email-title&publication_id=159185&post_id=75584109&isFreemail=true&utm_medium=email


I think the idea that the best way to end mass incarceration is to be better at catching criminals isn't a new idea. Val Demmings has been running on it. I think cities would be much safer if their clearance rate for Murders were closer to 100% instead of 50% where it is these days.

Anyway, I am personally for more cameras in public places. I don't think there is a lot of harm to putting offenders in a database that is only used to match for crimes. I also think a lot of people could be let out of jail if they agree to 24/7 tracking.



I know a lot of people have a reflexive reaction to the surveillance state but then we also give marketers all the data they want to sell us stuff so I am curious to hear other thoughts.



Poll result (39 votes)
Generally Yes (20 votes)Vote
Generally No (17 votes)Vote
Somewhere in-between those two points (2 votes)Vote

  

  

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Topic Outline
Subject Author Message Date ID
Focus on demand for crime
Oct 21st 2022
1
bingo.
Oct 22nd 2022
14
/endpost
Oct 25th 2022
28
hell no
Oct 21st 2022
2
No
Oct 21st 2022
3
Of course not.
Oct 21st 2022
4
We're getting more surveillance regardless
Oct 21st 2022
5
We need to go full on Minority Report
Oct 21st 2022
6
lol
Oct 21st 2022
9
I didn't realize clearance rates were so low
Oct 21st 2022
7
Clearance rates differ drastically
Oct 22nd 2022
15
hell nah
Oct 21st 2022
8
poll needs the 'Fuck No!' option
Oct 21st 2022
10
Yeah I'm offended by this strawman
Oct 21st 2022
11
Sci-fi has shown us more surveillance is always a good thing.
Oct 21st 2022
12
need surveillance of who juked the stats
Oct 22nd 2022
13
So, the Patriot Act Electric Boogaloo?
Oct 22nd 2022
16
Patriot Act wasn't about deterring crime
Oct 23rd 2022
20
      Thanks for sharing.
Oct 23rd 2022
21
It’s complicated.
Oct 22nd 2022
17
Hard no.
Oct 22nd 2022
18
Ultimately no because of the overreaching and invasion of my privacy
Oct 22nd 2022
19
Once again the polling doesn't line up with the responses.
Oct 24th 2022
22
drug felony charges shouldnt be added to DNA database IMO
Oct 24th 2022
23
But why not though?
Oct 24th 2022
24
     
Oct 25th 2022
27
           To be clear I am not saying put them in a database.
Oct 25th 2022
30
..
Nov 01st 2022
62
Red
Oct 24th 2022
25
As someone who rides the subways daily and sees all types of shit
Oct 24th 2022
26
If surveillance is equally applied then absolutely.
Oct 25th 2022
29
pretty much
Oct 25th 2022
33
Surveillance can always be spun to inflict worse policies
Oct 25th 2022
31
Every policy can be spun into a worst policy.
Oct 31st 2022
45
      I actually think it's a willful misunderstanding of the defund motto
Oct 31st 2022
53
           This is off tangent from the main point of this post
Oct 31st 2022
56
                Yeah, Adams would do well to try to address random violence
Nov 01st 2022
60
                     Man I am not disagreeing with anything yall saying.
Nov 02nd 2022
65
                          I don't doubt you believe this but wish more people didn't
Nov 02nd 2022
66
Wapo: Baltimore Prosecutor abused powers to stalk exes
Oct 25th 2022
32
This is bad too. Not really relevant to what I am talking about.
Oct 31st 2022
47
They don't want to combat crime. That's a lie
Oct 30th 2022
34
Going Kyrie Full Hotep I see.
Oct 31st 2022
36
      Post #35, for example.
Oct 31st 2022
37
      That article has little to nothing related to what I am talking about.
Oct 31st 2022
41
      i pray to god you dont have a son and they get funneled into a database
Oct 31st 2022
38
      Pray to god I don't have a son? WTF is wrong with you.
Oct 31st 2022
43
           You know that is not what i meant. Come on dude
Nov 01st 2022
63
      you didn’t see the problem with the Rebel Flag until 2007
Oct 31st 2022
40
           Yeah that's not what I said but talk your shite.
Oct 31st 2022
44
                which is EXACTLY why I feel there should be limits on their power
Oct 31st 2022
46
                     Go argue wit the person who believes there shouldn't be limits on their ...
Oct 31st 2022
48
                          It's your fault people keep making that mistake
Oct 31st 2022
50
                               All great points but this one in particular we have seen very recently
Nov 01st 2022
58
KnockLA: Councilmember's role in youth surveillance revealed
Oct 31st 2022
35
This sounds bad but nothing to do with what I am talking about.
Oct 31st 2022
42
      Who administers and has access to surveillance programs?
Oct 31st 2022
49
Its going well
Oct 31st 2022
39
Blue
Oct 31st 2022
51
Ohhh, I'm sure it'll be fine
Oct 31st 2022
54
NPR: Bloomberg defends NYPD spying on Muslims
Oct 31st 2022
52
OAH: Tracking Activists: The FBI’s Surveillance of Black Women Activis...
Oct 31st 2022
55
but these technologies (which are already implemented) don't make us bet...
Nov 01st 2022
57
remember the AWS facial recognition fiasco in 2018
Nov 01st 2022
59
      bruh, an issue they STILL trying to handle with AI/ML. they train these
Nov 01st 2022
61
Stricter gun laws will reduce crime and murder,
Nov 01st 2022
64
Matt Yglesias is a Karen
Apr 07th 2023
67

handle
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Fri Oct-21-22 11:13 AM

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1. "Focus on demand for crime"
In response to Reply # 0


          

A bigger safety net, and more services would lower crime dramatically.

Installing cameras, IA, and housing people in jails will not.

Shifting focus and funding is the answer.

You know they've tried "Watch everyone, lock them up and throw away the key" before, right?? If it worked we wouldn't be talking about cime - and so weird - right next to an election.

You know they're playing ads like this during MLB games now?
https://www.reddit.com/r/AskThe_Donald/comments/x6i7te/citizens_for_sanity_ad_is_masterfully_done/


------------


Gone: My Discogs collection for The Roots:
http://www.discogs.com/user/tomhayes-roots/collection

  

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Brotha Sun
Member since Dec 31st 2009
6778 posts
Sat Oct-22-22 07:54 AM

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14. "bingo."
In response to Reply # 1


          

"They used to call me Baby Luke....but now? The whole damn 2 Liiiive Crew."

  

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Hitokiri
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Tue Oct-25-22 09:26 AM

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28. "/endpost"
In response to Reply # 1


  

          

--

"You can't beat white people. You can only knock them out."

  

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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
79621 posts
Fri Oct-21-22 11:27 AM

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2. "hell no"
In response to Reply # 0


          

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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makaveli
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Fri Oct-21-22 11:36 AM

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3. "No"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

“So back we go to these questions — friendship, character… ethics.”

  

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Brew
Member since Nov 23rd 2002
24419 posts
Fri Oct-21-22 12:12 PM

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4. "Of course not."
In response to Reply # 0


          

----------------------------------------

"Fuck aliens." © WarriorPoet415

  

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jimaveli
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Fri Oct-21-22 12:28 PM

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5. "We're getting more surveillance regardless "
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

And it'll be used more to sell us stuff than to stop any crimes. We know this.

And really, with a general lack of trust for gov't being stoked, do we really want more watching going on? Can we really trust that they'll use it mainly for crime-stopping instead of using it for control?

>New York is going to add cameras to everyone subway car.
>
>https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/tech-news/new-york-subway-cameras-surveillance-mta-train-cars-hochul-rcna48582
>
>
>Matthew Iglesia wrote about more surveillance and pointed to
>the effectiveness of adding people charged with a felony to a
>DNA database.
>
>https://www.slowboring.com/p/the-best-way-to-end-mass-incarceration?utm_source=post-email-title&publication_id=159185&post_id=75584109&isFreemail=true&utm_medium=email
>
>
>I think the idea that the best way to end mass incarceration
>is to be better at catching criminals isn't a new idea. Val
>Demmings has been running on it. I think cities would be
>much safer if their clearance rate for Murders were closer to
>100% instead of 50% where it is these days.
>
>Anyway, I am personally for more cameras in public places. I
>don't think there is a lot of harm to putting offenders in a
>database that is only used to match for crimes. I also think a
>lot of people could be let out of jail if they agree to 24/7
>tracking.
>
>
>
>I know a lot of people have a reflexive reaction to the
>surveillance state but then we also give marketers all the
>data they want to sell us stuff so I am curious to hear other
>thoughts.
>
>
>
>

  

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PimpTrickGangstaClik
Member since Oct 06th 2005
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Fri Oct-21-22 12:44 PM

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6. "We need to go full on Minority Report "
In response to Reply # 0


          

Arrest people for pre-crime

_______________________________________

  

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Cenario
Member since Aug 24th 2005
59181 posts
Fri Oct-21-22 01:15 PM

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9. "lol"
In response to Reply # 6


  

          

-The Knicks’ coaching search still includes a lone frontrunner, Kurt Rambis, whose qualifications for the position include a strong relationship with Jackson and a willingness to take the job.

  

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PimpTrickGangstaClik
Member since Oct 06th 2005
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Fri Oct-21-22 01:05 PM

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7. "I didn't realize clearance rates were so low"
In response to Reply # 0


          

Until I looked here (if their data is correct). https://arresttrends.vera.org/clearance-rates

Based on that, there is a two fold problem in the US with crime.
(1) Something is wrong with our society which is causing people to want to do crime. Economic issues, hopeless, mental illness, lack of social cohesion, etc.

(2) You're unlikely to get caught doing most crime.


The surveillance will help with (2), and might deter some people in (1) who want to do crime.
So I'm on board with it.

The only concern-and it isn't a hypothetical concern- is that it would be used only for its intended purposes.

_______________________________________

  

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shockvalue
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Sat Oct-22-22 07:59 AM

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15. "Clearance rates differ drastically "
In response to Reply # 7


          

Tulsa OK has been in the high 80s for years (for homicide).

A friend of mine pointed out, this just means there’s an 80+% chance the cops will convict SOMEONE for the crime, not necessarily the perp.

--

Woe unto him who in this world courts not dishonor.

  

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kayru99
Member since Jan 26th 2004
16105 posts
Fri Oct-21-22 01:11 PM

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8. "hell nah"
In response to Reply # 0


          

  

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sevencents
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Fri Oct-21-22 03:59 PM

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10. "poll needs the 'Fuck No!' option"
In response to Reply # 0


          

this country will happily pay billions to 'combat' crime rather than invest a fraction of that in social programs and services that would prevent a majority of crimes in the first place.

it's more profitable to treat citizens as criminals rather than as people.

and its safe to say it's gonna be a shady overpriced no-bid contract to whoever provides the security equipment and services.


  

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imcvspl
Member since Mar 07th 2005
42239 posts
Fri Oct-21-22 06:45 PM

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11. "Yeah I'm offended by this strawman"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

>I know a lot of people have a reflexive reaction to the
>surveillance state but then we also give marketers all the
>data they want to sell us stuff so I am curious to hear other
>thoughts.

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." � Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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Frank Longo
Member since Nov 18th 2003
86672 posts
Fri Oct-21-22 06:57 PM

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12. "Sci-fi has shown us more surveillance is always a good thing."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Same for when the government has more access to your DNA. Always good!

So yes, nothing remotely dystopian about living in a surveillance state.

My movies: http://russellhainline.com
My movie reviews: https://letterboxd.com/RussellHFilm/
My beer TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@thebeertravelguide

  

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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
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Sat Oct-22-22 06:45 AM

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13. "need surveillance of who juked the stats"
In response to Reply # 0


          

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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Brotha Sun
Member since Dec 31st 2009
6778 posts
Sat Oct-22-22 08:00 AM

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16. "So, the Patriot Act Electric Boogaloo?"
In response to Reply # 0


          

spying on people 24/7 didnt work the last few decades to deter crime maybe we just need to spy a little harder.



"They used to call me Baby Luke....but now? The whole damn 2 Liiiive Crew."

  

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Amritsar
Member since Jan 18th 2008
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Sun Oct-23-22 04:42 AM

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20. "Patriot Act wasn't about deterring crime"
In response to Reply # 16


  

          

like not even a little bit

  

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Brotha Sun
Member since Dec 31st 2009
6778 posts
Sun Oct-23-22 12:25 PM

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21. "Thanks for sharing."
In response to Reply # 20


          

"They used to call me Baby Luke....but now? The whole damn 2 Liiiive Crew."

  

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shockvalue
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Sat Oct-22-22 08:15 AM

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17. "It’s complicated."
In response to Reply # 0
Sat Oct-22-22 08:15 AM by shockvalue

          

I believe if we did not have the ubiquitous cameras and especially cellphone pinging we have now, but if we instead lived in a world more similar technologically to the 1970s (but otherwise like our own), crime would be much higher than it was/is.

Cellphone pinging and cameras everywhere basically means that in order to be a professional criminal like what we used to call a stick up boy and get away with it, you need to be a monk with no phone who never makes the mistake of looking unmasked towards a random camera.

Certain types of career crime are basically obsolete.

The desperate and mentally ill in our society are making up much of the difference though.

And I do understand the concern about misuse of the tech. The DEA parallel construction scandal is a related civil rights nightmare already ongoing. The US doesn’t seem to have enough democracy to ensure such tools are used exclusively in accordance with the will of the people.

--

Woe unto him who in this world courts not dishonor.

  

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navajo joe
Member since Apr 13th 2005
6574 posts
Sat Oct-22-22 08:44 AM

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18. "Hard no. "
In response to Reply # 0


          

I'll try and come back when I can address this post constructively and without snark. No promises.

That said, fucking Matty Yglesias? Jesus.

-------------------------------

A lot of you players ain't okay.

We would have been better off with an okaycivics board instead of an okayactivist board

  

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BrooklynWHAT
Member since Jun 15th 2007
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Sat Oct-22-22 09:54 AM

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19. "Ultimately no because of the overreaching and invasion of my privacy"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

As a person who does not and will not be committing any crimes,

<--- Big Baller World Order

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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Mon Oct-24-22 11:32 AM

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22. "Once again the polling doesn't line up with the responses. "
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Thought it was a fluke of the last crime poll but it seems like their is a big difference in how people talk about crime versus how they anonymously poll and vote about crime.

Anyway, I do see a lot of quick responses but I want to know what people find objectionable about 2 specific proposals.

1. What do you have against adding people charged with a felony to a DNA database?

2. What's the objection to adding more cameras to subways?


I'm going to warn you that slippery slope arguments are the laziest arguments (every policy can be discredited with a slippery slope argument).



**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

  

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legsdiamond
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Mon Oct-24-22 12:53 PM

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23. "drug felony charges shouldnt be added to DNA database IMO"
In response to Reply # 22


          

That should be reserved for murderers, rapist, assault type crimes

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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24. "But why not though?"
In response to Reply # 23


  

          

Maybe not for an arrest but let's say you are convicted. In addition to all the other punishments your DNA goes into a crime database.

I think you are right that the use of the database should be reserved for solving murders, rapes and violent crimes. But why not put DNA in to see if there is a hit? Only people who should be worried are the violent criminals.

I think all sorts of safe guards should be in place on how the database is used. The worst case of misuse I have read is where they were using women's rape kits DNA to arrest women for crimes years later. That's horrible. But there DNA had no business in a database in the first place. I don't think there would be the same reaction to putting criminals DNA in a database to see what other crimes they may have committed.

My mind isn't made up on this, I just want to hear a good argument against.


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

  

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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
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Tue Oct-25-22 09:08 AM

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27. ""
In response to Reply # 24


          

just seems wrong to put non violent criminals into a DNA database

Pretty soon they will be swabbing folks at routine traffic stops..



****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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30. "To be clear I am not saying put them in a database. "
In response to Reply # 27


  

          

I guess I am saying run them through a database for hits. If no hits, then its out the database on move on. I guess there are some who would say it should stay in the database for future hits.

But that's the type of details I think folks should be discussing it at.


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

  

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handle
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Tue Nov-01-22 11:07 AM

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62. ".."
In response to Reply # 22


          

>1. What do you have against adding people charged with a
>felony to a DNA database?

No, make them get a warrant in EVERY CASE. And ensure the warrants are not just rubber stamped somehow. (Not sure if it's possible to make warrants hard to get.) Might be reasonable in a murder, but not for shoplifting that's enhanced to a felony for repeat offender.

Police work SHOULD be hard - we pay them a lot of money to do it.

WE PAY ALOT OF MONEY. New York cops make an average (from Google) of $130k a year - plus benefits - plus overtime. That's at least 30% more than the avergae salary in the U.S.

>2. What's the objection to adding more cameras to subways?
"To subways" is too broad. Some targeted enhancements in areas where crime is increasing or at a high level could be sensible - but not the Bruce-Wayne-Turn-Everything-Into-A-Camera system.

We've shown in this country that the only targeting we tend to do is around race and/or class.

Obviously if crime is happening around a corner and people keep getting robbed because you can't see it then adding people (not necessary COPS) on the grounds would work - or maybe adding a camera to the spot might work too, but spending a large amount of money to install cameras EVERYWHERE and expecting it to solve everything is not the wisest action.

>I'm going to warn you that slippery slope arguments are the
>laziest arguments (every policy can be discredited with a
>slippery slope argument).

You suggested an INSANELY broad policy of taking everyone's DNA when they are charged with a felony - turn that intellect back on your self.

------------


Gone: My Discogs collection for The Roots:
http://www.discogs.com/user/tomhayes-roots/collection

  

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ThaTruth
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25. "Red"
In response to Reply # 0


          

________________________________________
"Take the surprise out your voice Shaq."-The REAL CP3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2H5K-BUMS0

  

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Cenario
Member since Aug 24th 2005
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Mon Oct-24-22 02:47 PM

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26. "As someone who rides the subways daily and sees all types of shit"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

happening, put cameras on every car.

Is it thee solution to the problem no. There's cameras on platforms and shit still happens.

cameras can't hurt though. Feel like when officer bodycams were a question, people were like nah, that aint the answer. Sure, but its better than nothing.

-The Knicks’ coaching search still includes a lone frontrunner, Kurt Rambis, whose qualifications for the position include a strong relationship with Jackson and a willingness to take the job.

  

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Kira
Member since Nov 14th 2004
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Tue Oct-25-22 12:33 PM

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29. "If surveillance is equally applied then absolutely."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

NYPD has a budget to use and quotas to fill. Expand the net to everybody. Surveillance on all minority communities is more than fair. Ease off the black community and use those same tactics on everyone else.

It's too late to end mass incarceration because the vast majority of America sanctioned it because "the" black community was targeted primarily. Since you cannot kill the beast you created, feed it with a diverse group of people.

As law abiding citizens we voluntarily gave up a surveillance-free life after 9/11 and later on once social media meshed with smartphone adoption.

No empathy for white misery (c) BDot

"root for everybody black haters say that's crazy, wow..."

  

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Brotha Sun
Member since Dec 31st 2009
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33. "pretty much"
In response to Reply # 29


          

"They used to call me Baby Luke....but now? The whole damn 2 Liiiive Crew."

  

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T Reynolds
Member since Apr 16th 2007
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Tue Oct-25-22 12:58 PM

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31. "Surveillance can always be spun to inflict worse policies"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

If you think 'the cold, observable data' will protect you consider the examples of fact vs. feeling outlined in this piece:

"Crime: Red Delusions About Purple Reality"

During last week’s Oklahoma gubernatorial debate Joy Hofmeister, the surprisingly competitive Democratic candidate, addressed Kevin Stitt, the Republican incumbent, who — like many in his party — is running as a champion of law and order.

“The fact is the rates of violent crime in Oklahoma are higher under your watch than New York and California,” she declared.

Stitt responded by laughing, and turned to the audience: “Oklahomans, do you believe we have higher crime than New York or California?”

But Hofmeister was completely correct. In fact, when it comes to homicide, the most reliably measured form of violent crime, it isn’t even close: In 2020 Oklahoma’s murder rate was almost 50 percent higher than California’s, almost double New York’s, and this ranking probably hasn’t changed.

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Was Stitt unaware of this fact? Or was he just counting on his audience’s ignorance? If it was the latter, he may, alas, have made the right call. Public perceptions about crime are often at odds with reality. And in this election year Republicans are trying to exploit one of the biggest misperceptions: that crime is a big-city, blue-state problem.

Americans aren’t wrong to be concerned about crime. Nationwide, violent crime rose substantially in 2020; we don’t have complete data yet, but murders appear to have risen further in 2021, although they seem to be declining again.

Nobody knows for sure what caused the surge — just as nobody knows for sure what caused the epic decline in crime from 1990 to the mid-2010s, about which more shortly. But given the timing, the social and psychological effects of the pandemic are the most likely culprits, with a possible secondary role for the damage to police-community relations caused by the murder of George Floyd.

While the crime surge was real, however, the perception that it was all about big cities run by Democrats is false. This was a purple crime wave, with murder rates rising at roughly the same rate in Trump-voting red states and Biden-voting blue states. Homicides rose sharply in both urban and rural areas. And if we look at levels rather than rates of change, both homicides and violent crime as a whole are generally higher in red states.

So why do so many people believe otherwise? Before we get to politically motivated disinformation, let’s talk about some other factors that might have skewed perceptions.
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One factor is visibility. As Bloomberg’s Justin Fox has pointed out, New York City is one of the safest places in America — but you’re more likely to see a crime, or know someone who has seen a crime, than elsewhere because the city has vastly higher population density than anyplace else, meaning that there are often many witnesses around when something bad happens.

Another factor may be the human tendency to believe stories that confirm our preconceptions. Many people feel instinctively that getting tough on criminals is an effective anti-crime strategy, so they’re inclined to assume that places that are less tough — for example, those that don’t prosecute some nonviolent offenses — must suffer higher crime as a result. This doesn’t appear to be true, but you can see why people might believe it.

Such misconceptions are made easier by the long-running disconnect between the reality of crime and public perceptions. Violent crime halved between 1991 and 2014, yet for almost that entire period a large majority of Americans told pollsters that crime was rising.

However, only a minority believed that it was rising in their own area. This tendency to believe that crime is terrible, but mostly someplace else, was confirmed by an August poll showing a huge gap between the number of Americans who consider violent crime a serious problem nationally and the much smaller number who see it as a serious problem where they live.

Which brings us to the efforts by right-wing media and Republicans to weaponize crime as an issue in the midterms — efforts that one has to admit are proving effective, even though the breadth of the crime wave, more or less equally affecting red and blue states, rural and urban areas and so on suggests that it’s nobody’s fault.

It’s possible that these efforts would have gained traction no matter what Democrats did. It’s also true, however, that too few Democrats have responded effectively.

In New York, Gov. Kathy Hochul was very late to the party, apparently realizing only a few days ago that crime was a major issue she needed to address. On the other hand, Eric Adams, New York City’s mayor, has seemed to feed fear-mongering, declaring that he had “never seen crime at this level,” an assertion contradicted by his own Police Department’s data. Even after the 2020-21 surge, serious crime in New York remained far below its 1990 peak, and in fact was still lower than it was when Rudy Giuliani was mayor.

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I’m not a politician, but this doesn’t seem as if it should be hard. Why not acknowledge the validity of concerns over the recent crime surge, while also pointing out that right-wingers who talk tough on crime don’t seem to be any good at actually keeping crime low?

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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45. "Every policy can be spun into a worst policy. "
In response to Reply # 31


  

          

The article makes my point about how bad democrats are at talking about crime. We totally cede the conversation to republicans and wonder how we end up with terrible draconian laws.

The article says Eric Adam fear mongers but I think its more like he actively tries to address peoples concerned. When there was a shooting around the corner during the elections he showed up to talk to the press about it when Maya Wiley was talking about systematic change that needs to happen.

What I think Dems/progressives get wrong is you can do both. Make long term plans to address systemic problems, end mass incarceration AND make sure the really bad violent people stay locked up as long as they are a problem.

Defund the Police was such bad politics for framing it as either/or.

How Republicans use crime to hammer democrats and win election been going on since Will Horton and you would think we would have learned something about how to think of new ways to address the issue.


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

  

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T Reynolds
Member since Apr 16th 2007
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Mon Oct-31-22 02:16 PM

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53. "I actually think it's a willful misunderstanding of the defund motto"
In response to Reply # 45


  

          

on the part of the right-wing and 'LE enthusiasts' let's call them. But also by people who don't understand or reject the real gist of its meaning (similar to how CRT gets thrown around without understanding it's roots in academia).

Adams recently touted a 23mm investment to enhance open spaces in a handful of public housing developments in the city. Upgrades which theoretically would be long-lasting

https://newyorkyimby.com/2022/10/mayor-eric-adams-announces-23m-investment-to-enhance-open-spaces-at-nycha-housing-projects.html

23mm is .4% of the 2022 NYPD budget

If such a small fraction of the NYPD budget can be cause for celebration when applied to a different purpose, to public space for low-income New Yorkers, why can't a similar fractions of the actual NYPD budget be redirected to mental health outreach in those areas. Or education, or job training, or arts, etc. etc.

That is the real goal of defunding the police. You may have encountered some people that said ABOLISH police or prisons, and they may have been the loudest in the room, but that is not a serious argument that was being made by any progressive politician. Some people may have wanted to replace police with community-led groups but those people are among a small group within the left.

My point in posting the article was that public perception of BIPOC and city occupants among white americans in red states are wildly divergent from reality and will continue to be, despite data. The same people end up as judges and politicians that would incriminate whole swaths of the population in one brushstroke, but you want to make sure Hillary and other Dems are there to cosign their legislation, that without fail will be disproportionately used to remove Black and brown people from the free world, using superpredator rhetoric?

Cameras on every subway car are coming whether we like it or not, but I can't figure out why you're in the part of the population that is excited about it, knowing what is going to be done with that surveillance will disproportionately hurt poor people and people of color, and that it will carry an immense budgetary cost that might have been better spent on bettering society in some other tangible ways.

If you are a fan of more cameras, do you agree that there can then be less cops being paid to stand around doing nothing in the subway? Can we redirect funds from officer pensions into camera installation? Do we need more people investigating crime as forensic scientists, vs. beat cops knocking down doors? It sounds like you are thinking technology can improve law enforcement when we already spend a ridiculous amount on a militarized police force, and think mass incarceration would be prevented if the courts and law enforcement were just presented with the data, when there is no evidence that supports that.



  

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Numba_33
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56. "This is off tangent from the main point of this post"
In response to Reply # 53


  

          

but one aspect of defund the police that I would hope some police on the beat would agree with is shifting funding towards more mental health staffing and away from traditional law enforcement so that when incidents involving folks with legit mental health problems occur, trained mental health staff are used instead of the average on the beat police that are far under training compared to training mental health staff.

I vaguely remember this being proposed by DiBlasio either sometime before or around the time the Defund The Police phrase became common place. I'd love for Eric Adams to put some teeth into this kind of proposal especially since there are legit mentally ill folks roaming the subways these days.

To be clear, I'm not naïve enough to think mental health staffing would be a complete solution to the random violence that's occuring on the subways these days, but I definitely think that would be a better solution than just flooding the subways with more police that aren't trained sufficiently to deal with mentally off individuals.

"Sean sparks like John Starks, nah, Sean ball like John Wall" - Rest In Power Forever Sean Price.

  

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T Reynolds
Member since Apr 16th 2007
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Tue Nov-01-22 09:07 AM

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60. "Yeah, Adams would do well to try to address random violence"
In response to Reply # 56


  

          

besides 'more boots on the ground'

100% agree with your points on expanding mental health resources and outreach.

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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65. "Man I am not disagreeing with anything yall saying. "
In response to Reply # 60


  

          

remember I said Defund the police is bad politics. I don't think its bad policy. I think what Eric gets right is you have to TALK the right way about crime no matter what your policies are. You have to be responsive to people even while you are setting long term plans in motion.

AND you also have to acknowledge that there are certain incorrigible that all the public service/mental health interventions in the world won't be able to help and they need to be in jail. I think that's the part that progressives won't touch but its a part that most people have a visceral/emotional reaction to and the part the right feast on.

Ask most people vocal in this chat what should happen to the dude who randomly shove that dude on the tracks and most here would be unwilling to say "lock that dude up until we are sure he won't do shit like that again". They will deflect and avoid the issue and meanwhile if there were a poll here it would be overwhelmingly supporting locking dude up. The discourse doesn't match what most people feel.

With regards to the cameras, installing all the cameras will only cost 5.5M. Its a drop in the hat for New Yorks 10B police budget. Hopefully it will save money because then hopefully you will need less beat cops in the subways doing nothing. I am happy for it because I have the commonly held belief that people are less likely to do crime where there are cameras and cameras help catch people who do crime. A belief by the way, that folks are disputing here.

I think ultimately Eric Adams is going to get done like David Denkins and though he is going to do things to reign in and improve the police department lack of support from progressives will lead to him getting replaced by another Guiliani.




**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

  

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imcvspl
Member since Mar 07th 2005
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Wed Nov-02-22 10:22 AM

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66. "I don't doubt you believe this but wish more people didn't "
In response to Reply # 65


  

          

>AND you also have to acknowledge that there are certain
>incorrigible that all the public service/mental health
>interventions in the world won't be able to help and they need
>to be in jail. I think that's the part that progressives
>won't touch but its a part that most people have a
>visceral/emotional reaction to and the part the right feast
>on.

Because it's absolutely nonsense. I'm sure you can pull examples to support it but it is still bullshit. Because the framing makes it a failure of the individual rather than a failure of society. And the way you're using it is as a means of absolving society's responsibilities. Even worse it makes it seem like there is something essential about it. "There's nothing we can do but be equipped to lock them all up." Might as well just kill them while you are at it and save the taxpayers money right?

>Ask most people vocal in this chat what should happen to the
>dude who randomly shove that dude on the tracks and most here
>would be unwilling to say "lock that dude up until we are sure
>he won't do shit like that again". They will deflect and
>avoid the issue and meanwhile if there were a poll here it
>would be overwhelmingly supporting locking dude up. The
>discourse doesn't match what most people feel.

How about instead we don't treat it as random and actually do the work to understand what led to it.

>With regards to the cameras, installing all the cameras will
>only cost 5.5M. Its a drop in the hat for New Yorks 10B
>police budget. Hopefully it will save money because then
>hopefully you will need less beat cops in the subways doing
>nothing.

Surely you've lived in NYC long enough to know there will never ever be a voluntary reduction of forces.

>I am happy for it because I have the commonly held
>belief that people are less likely to do crime where there are
>cameras and cameras help catch people who do crime. A belief
>by the way, that folks are disputing here.
>
>I think ultimately Eric Adams is going to get done like David
>Denkins and though he is going to do things to reign in and
>improve the police department lack of support from
>progressives will lead to him getting replaced by another
>Guiliani.

Honestly don't know how to take this.


█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." � Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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Walleye
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Tue Oct-25-22 01:14 PM

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32. "Wapo: Baltimore Prosecutor abused powers to stalk exes"
In response to Reply # 0
Tue Oct-25-22 01:15 PM by Walleye

          

https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md-va/2022/09/30/baltimore-prosecutor-stalking-subpoena-fraud/

Baltimore prosecutor abused powers to stalk ex-partners, charges say
Adam Lane Chaudry, 43, of Baltimore, was indicted by a federal grand jury on 10 counts of fraud in connection with issuing subpoenas to obtain confidential documents

By Justin Jouvenal
September 30, 2022 at 4:40 p.m. EDT

A former Baltimore prosecutor is facing federal charges for allegedly abusing his powers to obtain phone records, driver’s license photos and other information of ex-romantic partners and their friends as part of a stalking scheme, the U.S. attorney’s office for Maryland announced Friday.

Adam Lane Chaudry, 43, of Baltimore, was indicted by a federal grand jury Thursday on 10 counts of fraud in connection with issuing subpoenas to obtain confidential documents, which he sometimes claimed he needed as part of a “special investigation” of the Baltimore City Circuit Court, the U.S. attorney’s office said.

None of the five victims were witnesses or targets of any investigation by the Baltimore City State’s Attorney’s Office, the U.S. attorney’s office said.

When reached by phone, Chaudry said he would pass a reporter’s phone number to his attorney to respond to the allegations. The attorney, Patrick R. Seidel, did not call and did not respond to a request for comment as of Friday afternoon. The U.S. attorney’s office declined to comment.

Chaudry, who worked as an assistant prosecutor in Baltimore between 2009 and June 2021, handled homicide cases for his last six years. Maryland court records show he worked on hundreds of criminal prosecutions during that period.

Chaudry is facing an additional 88 count indictment in Baltimore City Circuit Court that accuses him of theft, misconduct in office, stalking, harassment and extortion among other counts. Most of those charges, which were announced in November, relate to the same alleged conduct covered by the federal case.

The federal indictment alleges Chaudry had a romantic relationship with one victim between 2005 and 2018 and a second between 2017 and 2020. The other three alleged victims are friends of the first romantic partner and performed volunteer work with that person.

Between 2019 and 2021, Chaudry caused 33 subpoenas to be issued for the first romantic partner’s phone records and he gained access to the data, according to the federal indictment. The indictment alleges the subpoenas contained no case number and read: “The information sought in this subpoena is relevant and material to a legitimate law enforcement inquiry.”

Similar language was used in his other subpoenas.

Chaudry also asked an investigator for the Baltimore State’s Attorney’s Office to provide the first romantic partner’s home address, motor vehicle administration records and a driver’s license photo, according to the federal indictment. The information was provided.

While living with the second victim in 2019, Chaudry asked an investigator for the prosecutor’s office to run the name of a relative of the victim who had served time in a Maryland detention center, according to the federal indictment. Chaudry also allegedly requested — and received — the relative’s phone number and address.

Chaudry later subpoenaed jail calls between the second romantic partner and the relative, and the relative’s visitor logs at the jail, according to the federal indictment. Chaudry also allegedly requested 911 calls from the second romantic partner using his email address at the prosecutor’s office.

In addition, Chaudry sought information from a hotel about the stays of the first romantic partner and his or her friend using his Baltimore City State’s Attorney’s Office email, according to the federal indictment. The hotel manager provided information about the first romantic partner’s stay.

Chaudry also issued numerous subpoenas for the phone records of the first romantic partner’s friends, according to the federal indictment. In all, Chaudry allegedly sought 65 subpoenas for phone records.

Chaudry faces a maximum of 10 years in prison for each count in the federal case. He faces an enhancement of five years per count related to the stalking allegations.

The Baltimore City State’s Attorney’s Office did not respond to requests for comment.

No dates have been set for Chaudry in federal court. He is next scheduled to appear in state court on Oct. 4.


______________________________

"Walleye, a lot of things are going to go wrong in your life that technically aren't your fault. Always remember that this doesn't make you any less of an idiot"

--Walleye's Dad

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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47. "This is bad too. Not really relevant to what I am talking about. "
In response to Reply # 32


  

          

I mean I think this could have happened 20 years ago. Not really related to adding more cameras in public places or databasing DNA evidence of convicts.

This abuse has criminal punishments. Should surveillance of phones not be allowed to avoid this sort of abuse?


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

  

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Damali
Member since Sep 12th 2002
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Sun Oct-30-22 10:32 PM

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34. "They don't want to combat crime. That's a lie"
In response to Reply # 0


          

Because if that's what "they" really cared about, they would not be doing this.

They don't care about the actual statistics, or the psychology or the science or the numbers when it comes to crime

because if they ended crime, they wouldn't be able to justify all the money in their budgets

the police state will always have a vested interested in ensuring that crime CONTINUES because who else is going to do the free-to-cheap labor in the prisons?

i can't wait to till more people pull their nose out of the dirty butthole of copaganda. its really shitty.

also, there is a TREMENDOUS amount of harm that can be (and is) done with this type of surveillance (and the database you speak of) and it's quite alarming that you don't know that.

you've been hoodwinked.

d

"i do more for both our communities than you'll ever know." - Heinz
"But rest assured, in my luxurious house built on the backs of people darker than me, I am sipping fine scotch and scoffing at how stupid you are." - bshelly

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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36. "Going Kyrie Full Hotep I see. "
In response to Reply # 34


  

          

>also, there is a TREMENDOUS amount of harm that can be (and
>is) done with this type of surveillance (and the database you
>speak of) and it's quite alarming that you don't know that.

Just say what the harm is. articulate it. point it out. I really want something to think about and even shared one example of misuse of DNA but no one strongly against it have even bothered to articulate it.

reminds me of this very tweet I read this morning.

https://twitter.com/MedcalfByESPN/status/1586711061566291973



**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

  

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Brew
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Mon Oct-31-22 09:09 AM

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37. "Post #35, for example."
In response to Reply # 36


          

----------------------------------------

"Fuck aliens." © WarriorPoet415

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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41. "That article has little to nothing related to what I am talking about. "
In response to Reply # 37


  

          


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

  

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Brotha Sun
Member since Dec 31st 2009
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Mon Oct-31-22 10:17 AM

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38. "i pray to god you dont have a son and they get funneled into a database"
In response to Reply # 36


          

"They used to call me Baby Luke....but now? The whole damn 2 Liiiive Crew."

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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43. "Pray to god I don't have a son? WTF is wrong with you. "
In response to Reply # 38


  

          

I have two sons. They are in databases because we are all in databases.

You should be praying for something else other than me not having kids.


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

  

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Brotha Sun
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63. "You know that is not what i meant. Come on dude"
In response to Reply # 43


          

"They used to call me Baby Luke....but now? The whole damn 2 Liiiive Crew."

  

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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
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Mon Oct-31-22 10:26 AM

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40. "you didn’t see the problem with the Rebel Flag until 2007"
In response to Reply # 36


          

I think you trust them way too much

and by them I mean law enforcement.

I would not trust them with a DNA database.

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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44. "Yeah that's not what I said but talk your shite. "
In response to Reply # 40


  

          

You don't need to trust cops to know we need some form of law enforcement.

Yall are so unserious.

**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

  

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legsdiamond
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46. "which is EXACTLY why I feel there should be limits on their power"
In response to Reply # 44


          

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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48. "Go argue wit the person who believes there shouldn't be limits on their ..."
In response to Reply # 46


  

          

Because no one here is saying there shouldn't be limits.

**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

  

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Walleye
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Mon Oct-31-22 02:09 PM

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50. "It's your fault people keep making that mistake"
In response to Reply # 48


          

Your position here is under-theorized. You want to expand surveillance and draw a straight line between that and a reduction in mass incarceration and don't seem to have bothered to explain how either would work since you haven't indicated that anything would be administered differently about the surveillance you're suggesting than the surveillance we're already under that is abused, constantly. Is somebody new going to be in charge? Is that body more answerable to the people than our current system of law enforcement? Is the resulting record of information this surveillance creates going to be preserved indefinitely? How do we make sure that the limitations you claim to want will be observed in future government administrations?

The potential for abuse is a problem that cannot be written around, except with silly hypotheticals. But if you want to be hypothetical, why not also be imaginative and suggest a laser that makes people throw up when they think of committing a crime? Or get people to surveil themselves and give them eighty dollars every day they can prove they didn't commit a crime? At least my made-up ideas are fun rather than "exactly the same things that are wrong about law enforcement now, but, um, better somehow."

______________________________

"Walleye, a lot of things are going to go wrong in your life that technically aren't your fault. Always remember that this doesn't make you any less of an idiot"

--Walleye's Dad

  

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T Reynolds
Member since Apr 16th 2007
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Tue Nov-01-22 08:36 AM

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58. "All great points but this one in particular we have seen very recently"
In response to Reply # 50


  

          

>How do we make sure that
>the limitations you claim to want will be observed in future
>government administrations?

The very moderate police and prison reforms Obama put in place with his DOJ were reversed under Trump for example

One can imagine what else a seditious, punitive tyrant would do with a higher level of government-sponsored surveillance infrastructure

  

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Walleye
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35. "KnockLA: Councilmember's role in youth surveillance revealed"
In response to Reply # 0


          

https://knock-la.com/koretzs-role-in-youth-surveillance-revealed/

Councilmember Paul Koretz’s Role in Youth Surveillance Revealed
Stop LAPD Spying sued for records on Koretz’s involvement in surveilling activists and won.

Stop LAPD Spying | October 26, 2022

Six months ago, the Stop LAPD Spying Coalition sued LA City Councilmember Paul Koretz after his office violated California public records laws to hide its communications with the Simon Wiesenthal Center, an influential nonprofit association in Los Angeles.

Palestinians know the Simon Wiesenthal Center as a staunchly Zionist organization that desecrated a Palestinian Muslim cemetery in 2010 and “supports efforts to suppress and censor Palestinian rights activism and speech” and demonize Palestine solidarity activism. Across Los Angeles, Simon Wiesenthal Center is famous for operating the city’s Museum of Tolerance, a place many LA youth know from mandatory school visits. What the Simon Wiesenthal Center has been less famous for — thanks in part to the secrecy Koretz was illegally trying to protect — is collaborating closely with government surveillance agencies to expand policing of youth in Los Angeles.

The records our lawsuit forced Koretz’s office to produce reveal disturbing details about the role of both the Simon Wiesenthal Center and Koretz’s office in expanding youth surveillance in Los Angeles, including the Simon Wiesenthal Center ghostwriting a “letter of support” from Koretz to help them procure a surveillance grant funded by the Trump administration’s Department of Homeland Security.

The grant that Koretz’s ghostwritten letter helped Simon Wiesenthal Center secure funded “Preventing Violent Extremism” programming in Los Angeles schools that would train students, teachers, and school police in labeling youth behaviors as “extremism” and reporting them directly to the Simon Wiesenthal Center through a phone app.

A database the Simon Wiesenthal Center planned to use in these trainings lists multiple Pro-Palestinian student groups, a BLM co-founder, and anti-police hashtags as examples of “terrorism and hate.” Koretz’s letter came in August 2018, the same month the mayor’s office rejected a similar DHS grant to expand its “Countering Violent Extremism” youth surveillance program. The goal was to sidestep the city’s rejection of the program, housing the same funding within the nonprofit.

The records also reveal disturbing details about both Koretz’s and Simon Wiesenthal Center’s disregard for Black life. Much of this disregard was already on public display. The week George Floyd was killed, Koretz announced that risk to retail property during protests “was no less troubling” than police murder. The very next morning, Simon Wiesenthal Center called Black Lives Matter protesters “domestic terrorists seeking to violently to destroy American society” and applauded the Trump administration’s threats to crack down on protesters.

Promoting anti-Blackness isn’t an aberration for the Simon Wiesenthal Center: the organization regularly conducts trainings for law enforcement on the “nuances” of racial profiling, including warning police about the danger of “reverse” racial profiling, which means when officers “abandon their intuitive skills out of fear of reprisals for bias.” In other words, their trainings on racial profiling have encouraged police to lean into their anti-Blackness and other prejudices.

In addition, the records reveal the center’s opposition to proposals to divest from police funding, and efforts to get Koretz to remove an ethnic studies resolution from consideration by the LAUSD School Board. And in another email, Simon Wiesenthal Center sent invasive photographs of unhoused individuals to Koretz’s office, asking the office to “relocate” them.

The records also reveal mysteries, such as Simon Wiesenthal Center’s associate dean sending Koretz’s office an email in November 2020 with the subject line “BLM” that said only: “Coming to beverlywood today re Compton MII 1pm should be fun and games.” Koretz’s Director of Public Safety responded: “I know brother.” We’re still trying to figure out what that one means.

The Simon Wiesenthal Center also coordinated with LAPD and Koretz’s office to surveil a July 2020 car caravan protesting Israel’s proposal for illegal annexation of Palestinian land. After Simon Wiesenthal Center staff met with police before the protest, even LAPD — usually not one to shy from racist alarmism about protests — deemed the effort to demonize the protesters as baseless, citing warnings “forwarded around the Jewish community” that urged people to get “ammo” because the caravan would “drive through Jewish neighborhoods where they will be vandalizing the local businesses, shuls and schools.”

LAPD, which had already been monitoring the protest through social media surveillance, told Simon Wiesenthal Center it “did not find any information or postings consistent with the alleged threat to vandalize local businesses, shuls or schools.” LAPD also warned Simon Wiesenthal Center about similar instances of false fearmongering within the Jewish community in the past.

We were only able to uncover these records after Koretz’s office finally disclosed them under threat of a trial. Getting here wasn’t easy. The office first ignored our records requests and follow-up communications for over a year.

There are not many legal avenues the state provides the public to deal with politicians flagrantly breaking the law in circumstances like this besides suing. But that isn’t an accessible option for much of the public seeking to expose secretive government practices. Koretz likely knows that. Like many other government officials, he gambled on whether we would take him to court.

The obstruction didn’t end there. After we filed the case, his office again tried to evade the legal process. Koretz’s chief of staff, David Hersch, refused to accept service of the lawsuit. Even though the case was directed at the councilmember and his office, Hersch tried to stall by dumping it on the city attorney’s office. But within two hours, Hersch personally began producing documents after months of ignoring the request. He also closed the request in a possible effort to moot our lawsuit.

Our lawsuit finally forced Koretz’s office to produce approximately two gigabytes of records reflecting their communications with the Simon Wiesenthal Center, along with attorneys’ fees and costs compensating our need to take them to court.

Despite Koretz’s refusal to abide by state public records law until after he was sued, he is currently running for Los Angeles city controller. According to his campaign website, “Councilmember Koretz has always delivered on his commitment to governmental efficiency, transparency, accountability, and accessibility.”

______________________________

"Walleye, a lot of things are going to go wrong in your life that technically aren't your fault. Always remember that this doesn't make you any less of an idiot"

--Walleye's Dad

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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Mon Oct-31-22 11:35 AM

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42. "This sounds bad but nothing to do with what I am talking about. "
In response to Reply # 35


  

          

As far as surveillance goes, the mention I see is supporting a program at this SWC that teaches teachers how to watch students for extremism. I think most would agree teachers doing police work is a bad idea. Glad to see the city has rejected similar programs in the past.

If you think my point is all surveillance is good. That's not at all my point. I mentioned two specific programs. I will ask you straight up, what would be the objection to putting cameras on all subways? Of the two it seems like a no brainer. I really want to hear thoughtful objections.

There does seems to be a general blanket all surveillance is bad, and its not unwarranted, but it also doesn't think people are giving it much thought.




**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

  

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Walleye
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Mon Oct-31-22 01:55 PM

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49. "Who administers and has access to surveillance programs?"
In response to Reply # 42


          

People do. People with weird personal agendas (as is the case with our man Adam Chaudry, creepy Baltimore DA); people with weird political agendas (as is the case with the Simon Wiesenthal Center); and cops. Lots and lots and lots and lots of cops. Do you need me to post more articles about what they do when they have the chance to abuse authority? Because I'm pretty sure somebody has written articles about it.

Earlier in this silly thread, you tried to forbid people from using slippery slope arguments. But you don't actually get to define the boundaries of this issue. Surveillance creates information that we can pretend is a good or at least value neutral when it's doing the thing that we (not really "we" - but thoughtless reactionaries who are either too stupid to realize that surveillance will *always* be abused or too dishonest to admit that's what they want, as long as it's abuse of people they don't like) but that information doesn't just exist for the fictional do-gooders who want to rid the subways of weirdos and stop existing when somebody wants to see who is protesting the wrong cause; or striking at the wrong job site.

Any government surveillance is highly vulnerable to abuse. That cannot be changed, so surveillance must be drawn back and eventually eliminated to protect our rights.

______________________________

"Walleye, a lot of things are going to go wrong in your life that technically aren't your fault. Always remember that this doesn't make you any less of an idiot"

--Walleye's Dad

  

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Brotha Sun
Member since Dec 31st 2009
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Mon Oct-31-22 10:17 AM

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39. "Its going well "
In response to Reply # 0


          

https://twitter.com/dellcam/status/1585676535889104897

"They used to call me Baby Luke....but now? The whole damn 2 Liiiive Crew."

  

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Lurkmode
Member since May 07th 2011
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Mon Oct-31-22 02:15 PM

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51. "Blue"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

What happens if you end up in the DNA database and you are innocent.

Who controls the cameras and video footage ?

What kind of checks will be put in place ?

---------------------------
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Walleye
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Mon Oct-31-22 02:18 PM

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54. "Ohhh, I'm sure it'll be fine"
In response to Reply # 51


          

>What happens if you end up in the DNA database and you are
>innocent.

They're only looking for criminals. So obviously, that's impossible.

>Who controls the cameras and video footage ?

The good guys! The ones who want to stop crime. They're in your courtrooms locking up poor people and on your streets, also locking up poor people.

>What kind of checks will be put in place ?

See above. Why would the good guys need checks?

______________________________

"Walleye, a lot of things are going to go wrong in your life that technically aren't your fault. Always remember that this doesn't make you any less of an idiot"

--Walleye's Dad

  

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Walleye
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Mon Oct-31-22 02:16 PM

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52. "NPR: Bloomberg defends NYPD spying on Muslims"
In response to Reply # 0


          

It's fine. They were doing it for the right reasons. Not the wrong ones. So we should stop worrying.

https://www.npr.org/2020/02/27/810181314/we-re-supposed-to-do-that-bloomberg-defends-nypd-s-spying-of-muslims-after-9-11

We're Supposed To Do That': Bloomberg Defends NYPD's Spying Of Muslims After 9/11
February 27, 20209:27 PM ET

Muslim American advocates and civil rights organizations are condemning comments presidential candidate Michael Bloomberg made defending the practice of surveilling Muslims in New York City when he was mayor.

It's the latest blowback Bloomberg's campaign for president has generated as his long history in the public eye dredges up former positions and remarks.

His now-renounced support of stop-and-frisk policing and use of non-disclosure agreements with women created controversy. So too have past comments he made about the discriminatory lending practice known as "redlining."

Now, new attention is turning to his backing of the monitoring of Muslims in the New York City area in the wake of the Sept. 11 attacks.

In an interview that aired Thursday on PBS NewsHour, Bloomberg explained the New York Police Department's secret monitoring Muslims as an intelligence-gathering tactic that was part of a larger effort to keep America safe.

"We sent to some officers into some mosques to listen to the sermon that the imam gave," Bloomberg said. "We were very careful. And the authorities that looked at us said, yes you complied with the law. But we had every intention of going every place we could legally to get as much information to protect this country. We had just lost 3,000 people at 9/11. Of course we're supposed to do that."

"There were imams who publicly at that time were urging the terrorism," Bloomberg continued. "And so of course that's where you gonna go. That does not, incidentally, mean that all Muslims are terrorists or all terrorists are Muslims. But the people who flew those airplanes came from the Middle East."

The police surveillance program was aimed at places of worship, cafes and schools where Muslims frequented. In one instance, an undercover officer accompanied 18 Muslims students from the City College of New York on a whitewater rafting trip.

The program became the target of multiple lawsuits, which resulted in a settlement deal.

A court never declared the program to be legal, but in settling the suits, neither the city of New York nor the NYPD admitted any wrongdoing or violations of the law.

NPR reached out to the Bloomberg campaign for a response to the criticism, but they did not immediately respond.

Civil liberties advocates swiftly condemned Bloomberg's comments.

"The NYPD literally mapped our communities across three states, causing systemic self-censoring, distrust of any interaction with the government, and untold harm to our communities," said Arab American Institute Executive Director Maya Berry. "One's ethnicity or faith is not grounds for law enforcement scrutiny."

Hina Shamsi, director of the ACLU's National Security Project, also criticized Bloomberg's defense of the spying activity.

"This is an insulting attempt to rewrite the history of an unconstitutional surveillance program that left Muslims, particularly in communities of color, devastated," Shamsi said. "It took brave Muslims and their supporters to go to court before the NYPD finally agreed to reforms to safeguard communities in New York and beyond. And no court ever said that the NYPD's discriminatory surveillance program under Bloomberg was lawful."

Muslim Advocates, which has been calling on Bloomberg to disavow the program, joined those dismayed over Bloomberg's comments.

Executive Director Farhana Khera says that no federal court ever upheld the program.

"What happened in New York City was a massive civil rights breach that caused lasting harm to countless innocent American Muslims. Mayor Bloomberg needs to correct the record immediately," Khera said.

In 2018, city officials reached a settlement over the NYPD's activity in which New York officials agreed to adopt "reasonable and diligent" measures to expunge information the police department's intelligence unit had gathered.

Two other suits also settled related to the monitoring resulted in the NYPD agreeing to stop launching investigations on the basis of race, ethnicity, religion or natural origin.

The settlements came after the Associated Press won a Pulitzer Prize in 2012 for exposing the program. At the time of AP's investigation, the NYPD denied the spying program existed.

In the Thursday interview, Bloomberg claimed that the same kind of aggressive efforts to surveil people of one religion would have been approved had the 9/11 hijackers been of a different religious background.

"All of the people came from the same place and all that came were from a place they happened to be one religion," Bloomberg said. "And if they'd been another religion, we would've done the same thing."

______________________________

"Walleye, a lot of things are going to go wrong in your life that technically aren't your fault. Always remember that this doesn't make you any less of an idiot"

--Walleye's Dad

  

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Walleye
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Mon Oct-31-22 02:23 PM

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55. "OAH: Tracking Activists: The FBI’s Surveillance of Black Women Activis..."
In response to Reply # 0


          

This is ancient history. The FBI has probably cleaned up its act and no longer acts on behalf of capital as a reactionary cudgel against social progress.

https://www.oah.org/tah/issues/2020/history-for-black-lives/tracking-activists-the-fbis-surveillance-of-black-women-activists-then-and-now/

Tracking Activists: The FBI’s Surveillance of Black Women Activists Then and Now
ASHLEY D. FARMER

In 2017 the FBI’s Domestic Terrorism Analysis Unit released a memo that identified a new national threat: “Black Identity Extremists (BIE).” These “extremists,” the Bureau claimed, were “motivated perceptions of police brutality against African Americans” and “spurred an increase in premeditated, retaliatory lethal violence against law enforcement.” Agents pinpointed the “August 2014 shooting of Michael Brown in Ferguson, Missouri,” and the “declination to indict the police officers involved” as politicizing BIEs. In other words, the FBI claimed that the Black Lives Matter movement—started by three Black women—was ground zero for their renewed interest in targeting and surveilling Black activists.

Three years later, in the aftermath of the police murders of George Floyd, Breonna Taylor, Tony McDade, and many others, another wave of protests has erupted. In response, the FBI has used this “extremist” framework to ramp up its surveillance using the same medium through which news of the murders and protests spread: social media. Recent reports indicate that the Philadelphia Police, with the help of federal agents, tracked a female protester from Instagram, to “an Etsy shop that sold the distinctive T-shirt the woman was wearing in the video,” to her LinkedIn page, “and eventually to her doorstep in Germantown.” Other investigations reveal that police officers are using Twitter to spread misinformation about June 2020 Black Lives Matter protests.

This tracking of activists has deep, intertwined roots in the nation’s history. Under the watch of multiple presidents and Attorneys General, the government has engaged in decades-long surveillance and harassment campaigns against Black activists that began with the creation of the Bureau of Investigation in 1908. Via FBI Director J. Edgar Hoover, this operation expanded significantly with his establishment of the Counterintelligence Program or COINTELPRO. From 1956 to 1971, federal agents partnered with state officials and police to eavesdrop on phone calls, create false mail and “Black propaganda” publications, infiltrate organizations, and fabricate evidence aimed at turning activists against each other. Hoover’s targeting of leaders such as Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. or Malcolm X is now the subject of scholarly and popular lore. Less well-known however, are the many Black women who endured repression during COINTELPRO. Examining their efforts illuminates the deep roots of government surveillance and sheds light on FBI tactics amid this iteration of uprisings, which are increasingly women led.

The Sojourners for Truth and Justice were among the first of many Black women’s groups to draw Hoover’s ire. Founded in 1951, the Sojourners cultivated a national presence on behalf of Black mothers, widows, and women. Activists such as Louise Thompson Patterson, Shirley Graham Du Bois, and Eslanda Robeson brought their expertise to the group. Younger Sojourner leadership included budding writers Alice Childress and Lorraine Hansberry. The organization developed a “Black left feminist” ideology and agenda, or a politics that empowered working-class Black women by “combining black nationalist and American Communist Party positions on race, class, and gender with black women radicals’ own lived experiences.” They applied this focus broadly, developing a capacious platform that ranged from antilynching to anti-apartheid protests.

COINTELPRO tactics developed in tandem with, and in some cases through, the FBI’s surveillance of the Sojourners. Agents began watching the group in September 1951 in anticipation of their initial “Sojourn” to Washington, D.C. The organization called on Black women to meet in the nation’s capital to “demand of the President, the Justice Department, and the Congress the absolute immediate and unconditional redress of grievances.” Quickfire agent reports illustrated the Bureau’s growing concern that “prominent” members such as “Mrs. Paul Robeson, Mrs. Willie McGee, Mrs. Shirley Du Bois, and Mrs. William Patterson” could attract hundreds to D.C. to pressure high-ranking government officials. Building on contemporaneous Cold War discourses, the Bureau claimed that the Sojourners were attempting to “disguise” the “true Communist character” of their organization by “secur Negro women” who were “interested only in the betterment of the Negro race” for their subversive causes. However, records indicate the Bureau’s real concern was that this D.C. protest was a “test movement” for the Sojourners’ larger plans to incite a “revolution” among Black people.

Nothing stoked FBI agents’ fears of the Sojourners more than their proposed “March on Georgia.” In October 1951, agents began to fixate on the group’s plan to gather hundreds to support Rosa Lee Ingram—a Black woman sharecropper and mother accused of killing a white man who attacked her and her sons. In classified memos, they asserted that a Sojourner-led group of “a thousand or more colored women to protest the imprisonment of Rosa Lee Ingram” outside her Georgia prison cell. The Bureau also claimed that the Sojourners intended to “forcibly take ‘Mother Ingram’ from prison” in the “ho of provoking an incident that will cause bloodshed and ‘spark a revolution throughout the South.’” In reality, the Sojourners were only able to send a small delegation to visit Ingram as plans for their larger march fell apart. They also had intentions of freeing Ingram. Agents’ concerns about the group was both an index of their fears about the Sojourners’ popularity as well as their efforts to justify Bureau-based surveillance and harassment of these women.

The Sojourners were well aware of the Bureau’s surveillance and struck back by publicizing their tactics. Fresh off their Washington, D.C., protest, participants reported the FBI harassment they experienced in the press. Adele Young, a Los Angeles Sojourner, detailed how men in dark suits denied the group entry into their pre-arranged meetings. She also told of how the Sojourners could barely maneuver in and out of buildings because these men followed and photographed them as they moved. Young’s recounting of events in Washington, D.C., juxtaposed the law-abiding Sojourners with the illegal and confrontational tactics of the FBI. It also framed the Black women’s collective as a group that could and would stand up to government repression.

The following year, the Brooklyn chapter published a resolution about FBI surveillance and harassment of member Esther Cooper Jackson. Cooper Jackson and her husband, James, mounted an impressive affront to white supremacy through their leadership of the Southern Negro Youth Congress (SNYC)—an interracial protest group that supported everything from voting rights to fair employment practices. This SNYC organizing, coupled with Cooper Jackson’s support of the Sojourners, made her a target of attack. The Brooklyn Sojourners “strongly condem the FBI’s harassment” in their resolution. They also detailed how Cooper Jackson and her daughters had been “harassed and constantly followed by dozens of FBI men…to the park, to school, on visits to friend’s homes, by car, subway, train” and how agents “tried to force her four year old daughter out of nursery school.” The Sojourners called for letters to be sent to President Truman demanding that he use his power to stop racist violence rather endorse Hoover’s harassment of Black women. The group’s resolution rendered antisurveillance protesting part of the national discourse as well as the Sojourners’ organizing agenda.

When FBI agents couldn’t break or imprison Black women activists, they tried to flip them into informants. Such was the experience of life-long radical activist Audley Moore. Moore was a supporter of Black nationalist Marcus Garvey and his Universal Negro Improvement Association (UNIA) in the 1920s. She rose to national fame as an organizer within the Communist Party in the 1930s and 1940s. When McCarthyism suppressed her radical networks, Moore organized on the lower frequencies of the movement, developing her own radical grassroots organizations in the 1950s and 1960s. The activist went on to mentor and advise many late-twentieth-century luminaries, including Muhammad Ahmad, founder of the Revolutionary Action Movement, and Tanzanian President Julius Nyerere. Agents surveilled Audley Moore for nearly fifty years.

Moore’s wealth of organizing experience made her an ideal potential Bureau informant. To that end, agents called her in for an interview “telling to name price” for sharing information on Black organizing and organizers. Committed to the cause—and well-acquainted with the Bureau’s tactics—Moore feigned ignorance in response to the agents’ questions. According to COINTELPRO reports, the activist claimed to be “ignorant” and “unlearned” about issues related to Black organizing and offered “inconclusive” answers when questioned about her activism and activist affiliations.

Moore instead used the interview to shift the scope and focus the interrogation. Agents recorded that “in nearly all instances” in which they questioned Moore, she “entered into a diatribe on the injustices being suffered by the Negro” and “reiterated time and again” that “any activity in which she had been engaged was motivated only by her desire to improve the lot of the Negro.” She also had questions of her own for the Bureau. Moore repeatedly queried her interrogators, asking why she “noticed nothing but White men” employed at the FBI office and why they spent so much time and resources surveilling her. In the end, it was Moore, not the agents, who ended the interview. She abruptly cut off their conversation, stating “that she would not be a witness” for them in any trials against fellow activists and that “she would not discuss these matters again.” Moore’s obstinance forced agents to conclude (and report to Hoover) that Moore was “extremely bitter with regard to the race problem” and “interested only in denouncing ‘white men.’” If the Bureau was going to try to turn her into an informant, then Moore made sure that they knew she was informed about their harassment, surveillance, and racism.

Other Black women organizers who were ensnared in COINTELPRO adopted a similar approach. On June 3, 1963, local law enforcement maimed sharecropper and Mississippi activist Fannie Lou Hamer. Hamer, along with the Student Non-Violent Coordinating Committee (SNCC), was helping Black Mississippians register to vote when police pulled her and other activists off a bus, brought them to the Montgomery County Jail, and beat her until her “body was hard as metal.” At the Attorney General’s behest, the Bureau sent agents to investigate the crime. The FBI sought interviews and photos of both the perpetrators and victims and were prepared to obtain them “with or without their consent.”

Many Black women activists tried to thwart FBI agents’ attempts to record them. Hamer did the opposite. She agreed to an interview and photo documentation of her injuries, but only after Agents secured her release from jail. Hamer “was extremely hostile in her manner” and “showed little respect for the FBI” during the interview. She was even more defiant in her photos. The images in Hamer’s FBI file reveal an activist who literally and figuratively faced the surveillance state. Agents circulated a full-body image of Hamer in a flower-patterned, cinched-waist dress with matching beaded necklace and earrings. Hamer is facing forward while also sitting into her left hip, forcing her right hip and leg to jut to the side slightly—a stance of defiance. The purpose of the photos was to document her injuries, which the Bureau did halfheartedly. As Hamer explained, “they took pictures of the front, but didn't any of my back where I was beaten.” If this was all she was going to get, Hamer was going to make it count. In the photos, the Mississippi activist holds out her left arm in front of her so that her body, her facial expression, and her bruises are all in view. Yet, Hamer does not look down at her injuries. She instead gazes defiantly and directly into the camera; eyes hooded but determined. Hamer’s message was clear: she was compliant in the Bureau’s documentation of her injuries insomuch as the documentation also served as evidence of her confrontation of white supremacy.

A black woman in a gingham dress stands against a brick wall with both her hands up in a defensive posture with a blank stare on her face with tears in her eyes.

“Fannie Lou Hammer after being beaten in jail, 1963”
Hamer understood the stakes of cooperating with the Bureau’s investigation. The activist repeatedly indicated that Bureau agents were a “rotten bunch” and that she was well-attuned to how the FBI could manipulate the evidence she provided to track and discredit her. They did. Just a few years later, the tenor of Hamer’s FBI file shifted. Agents continued to track her after investigating her 1963 beating, already having detailed information on her family, job, and organizing networks. They also began to focus on her associations with alleged “black hate groups” such as the Republic of New Africa, anti-Vietnam War organizations, and communist activists. Nevertheless, Hamer chose to comply with the Bureau’s investigations for a chance to put the atrocities she experienced on record. Hamer exploited Hoover’s obsession with extensive documentation to ensure that her experiences with police violence and racism would not be erased.

If recent reports are any indication, the Bureau has renewed many of its surveillance and repression efforts. Many are on the lookout for COINTELPRO schemes akin to the King “suicide letter” which intimated that the civil rights leader should kill himself rather than risk the publication of embarrassing personal details or agents’ efforts to infiltrate the Black Panther Party. Less evident are the more subtle forms of surveillance that the FBI perfected and used on Black women organizers and groups. If these tactics have gone undetected historically, so too can they fly under the radar today. A closer examination of the repression and surveillance that Black women activists endured amid COINTELPRO can illuminate how the FBI has adapted their tools and strategies to fit the current political moment and public sentiment.

Studying how Black women have endured and counteracted these efforts in the past can also expand conversations about the historical study and archival preservation of current protests. Social media is now one of the primary terrains of struggle between organizers and repressive state forces. This calls into question how we document this current moment while also being mindful of how the Bureau and local law enforcement can also use this archive to undermine protests, target Black organizers, and infringe on citizens’ rights. Historians and archivists in groups such as Documenting the Now, Project STAND, and The Blackivists have taken up this question of ethical archiving amid a rise in activist surveillance. Their work shows that organizers—particularly Black women— are still under siege but also capable of creating strategies to combat surveillance and repression. Starting with the history of women who organized amid COINTRLPRO offers a productive entry point for understanding how to record, write, and theorize about protest surveillance today.


______________________________

"Walleye, a lot of things are going to go wrong in your life that technically aren't your fault. Always remember that this doesn't make you any less of an idiot"

--Walleye's Dad

  

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nonaime
Charter member
3117 posts
Tue Nov-01-22 07:39 AM

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57. "but these technologies (which are already implemented) don't make us bet..."
In response to Reply # 0


          

at catching criminals.

>I think the idea that the best way to end mass incarceration
>is to be better at catching criminals isn't a new idea. Val
>Demmings has been running on it. I think cities would be
>much safer if their clearance rate for Murders were closer to
>100% instead of 50% where it is these days.

Clearance rate is related to charging someone with a crime. It doesn't give any indication on the correct person being charged. Adding more security cameras don't make a crappy criminal justice system better...it just makes it more crappy.

The majority of these security cameras have facial recognition (or posses the capability) and has a good chance of incorrectly identifying folks (numerous studies on AI and misidentification of Black/dark skinned folks) or the information is sold to folks who shouldn't have access to the information (see Clearview).

Sure, a place like NYC can say that theses technologies lead to more arrests. But do they lead to the arrest of the correct individual? https://www.cnn.com/2021/04/29/tech/nijeer-parks-facial-recognition-police-arrest/index.html

>I know a lot of people have a reflexive reaction to the
>surveillance state but then we also give marketers all the
>data they want to sell us stuff so I am curious to hear other
>thoughts.
Amazon doesn't have the ability to deprive me of my rights. The state does.

~~~~~~~~
A bad Samaritan averaging above average men (c) DOOM

  

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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
79621 posts
Tue Nov-01-22 08:50 AM

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59. "remember the AWS facial recognition fiasco in 2018"
In response to Reply # 57


          

https://www.aclu.org/news/privacy-technology/amazons-face-recognition-falsely-matched-28

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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nonaime
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3117 posts
Tue Nov-01-22 09:36 AM

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61. "bruh, an issue they STILL trying to handle with AI/ML. they train these "
In response to Reply # 59
Tue Nov-01-22 09:38 AM by nonaime

          

things on public datasets in a lot of cases. garbage in = garbage out.

~~~~~~~~
A bad Samaritan averaging above average men (c) DOOM

  

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allStah
Member since Jun 21st 2014
9816 posts
Tue Nov-01-22 01:47 PM

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64. "Stricter gun laws will reduce crime and murder, "
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not more surveillance. Technology can be hacked, and is constantly being
hacked, so more surveillance means nothing if people are allowed to
carry deadly weapons.

That’s the problem that people refuse to address because people love
guns and guns are heavily promoted in movies and video games.

ALL HAIL THE KING of LOSING: LEBRON
Bulls | Bears | White Sox | Yankees | Notre Dame | Illinois | Chelsea | Real Madrid

  

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Mynoriti
Charter member
38821 posts
Fri Apr-07-23 05:26 PM

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67. "Matt Yglesias is a Karen"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

he walks around taking pictures of people's expired tags and missing front plates, reports them them and posts them on twitter, all proud of himself.

anything i might agree with him on is drowned out by that goofball shit.

  

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