Printer-friendly copy Email this topic to a friend
Lobby General Discussion topic #13461409

Subject: "What is driving the increased frequency of mass shootings in the US" Previous topic | Next topic
PimpTrickGangstaClik
Member since Oct 06th 2005
15894 posts
Thu May-26-22 03:08 PM

Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
"What is driving the increased frequency of mass shootings in the US"
Thu May-26-22 03:10 PM by PimpTrickGangstaClik

          

The availability of guns are definitely a major factor. But that can't be the only reason, right? I mean, it's never been difficult to get guns in this country.

There's also been and increase in the willingness to commit these acts

Is it a rise in mental illness over time? If so, is the US unique in this regard? Because I don't think mass attacks (shooting or otherwise) occur in other countries at this frequency. And why would mental illness be increasing?

Is it media coverage (and/or social media)?The fact that someone can instantly go from unknown to world famous.

Something else?

_______________________________________

  

Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top


Topic Outline
Subject Author Message Date ID
That fact school shootings are a *thing* is a major part of it IMO
May 26th 2022
1
True. And I think this logic applies more broadly too
May 26th 2022
2
i mean, long and short: unchecked capitalism is causing it.
May 26th 2022
3
^
May 27th 2022
10
Most Crime (Sex Crimes Not Included)
Apr 15th 2023
83
Hopelessness and desperation have to be at all-time highs in the USA
May 26th 2022
4
Various factors, but I will say this nation was founded by homicidal
May 26th 2022
5
I seriously believe lead in the water is causing people to kirk
May 26th 2022
6
In 1994, President Clinton signed a bill banning all semiautomatic
May 26th 2022
7
RE: What is driving the increased frequency of mass shootings in the US
May 26th 2022
8
its the guns.
May 26th 2022
9
^^^
May 29th 2022
30
^^^
May 29th 2022
31
AR-15’s.. damn near every mass murder involves this weapon
May 27th 2022
11
It’s the guns
May 27th 2022
12
The inability to thoroughly punish white people is the answer.
May 27th 2022
13
pretty sure every mass murderer does life in jail
May 27th 2022
16
      If not killed either by the cops or offing themselves
Apr 13th 2023
77
yes, it can
May 27th 2022
14
multiple drivers but your post is about MASS SHOOTINGS
May 27th 2022
15
mostly scared white people
May 27th 2022
17
I think it's a deeper, cultural issue
May 27th 2022
18
when I hear about dudes who NEVER talked to women
May 27th 2022
20
CIA/FBI
May 27th 2022
19
I don't want to dive in to the conspiracy theory rabbit hole...but...
May 27th 2022
21
Please elaborate on what you're saying, exactly.
May 28th 2022
26
Guns
May 27th 2022
22
the factors exist in a perfect triangle, and y'all are missing one side ...
May 27th 2022
23
patriarchy is a group project. the "group" isnt who you think it is
May 29th 2022
32
      RE: patriarchy is a group project. the "group" isnt who you think it is
May 29th 2022
38
           name the benefits.
May 29th 2022
39
                do your own research if it really matters to you
May 31st 2022
42
                there's nothing to win here, just trying to get to the truth. nm
May 31st 2022
44
                     glad to hear that. i encourage you to sincerely research it.
May 31st 2022
46
                          Are you seeing the pattern yet?
Jun 01st 2022
51
                Bruh, lol. This is where it always falls apart.
Jun 01st 2022
50
                     lol on god.
Jun 01st 2022
52
overpopulation and the food industry
May 28th 2022
24
Not to Scare Anybody But...
May 28th 2022
25
A push?????? There's an official military field manual....
May 29th 2022
29
.
May 29th 2022
27
I think most of these are intended to be murder-suicides.
May 29th 2022
28
we've been putting band aids on america's racism and the boat is sinking
May 29th 2022
33
18 year olds can buy a long rifle in Canada
May 29th 2022
34
Guns + the gun culture radically shifting to the right
May 29th 2022
35
According to Ted Cruz it’s the doors
May 29th 2022
36
the shameless confidence he spit that bullshit with
May 29th 2022
37
      continually proving they're ok with this stuff happening.
May 29th 2022
40
           if it's weighed against their personal interest, they're def ok with it
May 31st 2022
43
Bowling for Columbine came out 20 years ago.... it's the guns
May 31st 2022
41
There were 14 mass shootings over memorial day weekend
May 31st 2022
45
The fact that we have to be pedants over what a mass shooting is ...
May 31st 2022
48
white christian nationalism… and guns, of course its the guns
May 31st 2022
47
as the social infrastructure falls apart the settler colonial
Jun 01st 2022
49
Clearly it’s their economic anxiety
Jun 01st 2022
53
we're way, waaaaaaaay past gun control + guns arent the problem
Jun 01st 2022
54
Agreed, but the shootings happen because it's an option
Jun 01st 2022
55
you can take out a whole school in the time it takes to print a gun
Jun 01st 2022
56
It’s sad we’re almost numb to it now they don’t even get a post?
Apr 12th 2023
57
the internet/smartphones
Apr 12th 2023
58
def not helping but those things aren't exclusive to the US
Apr 12th 2023
60
      not the only factor for sure
Apr 12th 2023
61
      another way of saying it
Apr 12th 2023
62
      wow I think you are spot on n/m
Apr 12th 2023
64
      The Reformation in the Cities, Ozment
Apr 12th 2023
69
           Yes you do!
Apr 12th 2023
71
           I mean, I guess I did anyhow
Apr 13th 2023
74
           looks like a great list of books
Apr 13th 2023
72
                To learn things about the late middle ages
Apr 13th 2023
73
                     if you aint got no fight, cry uncle
Apr 13th 2023
75
                     I'm not in a fight
Apr 13th 2023
80
                          thanks for the reply
Apr 14th 2023
82
                     I reread your post
Apr 13th 2023
76
      i think fif is right...and the missing part for the rest is the guns.
Apr 12th 2023
63
it's the guns. what are the stats in countries without a 2nd amendment?
Apr 12th 2023
59
*peeps to see if anyone is facing the hard truth yet* Nope. *leaves*
Apr 12th 2023
65
STFU
Apr 12th 2023
66
So since Nashville “identified as a man” we’re chalking that up to...
Apr 12th 2023
67
IT'S ONLY THE THING I SAID IT IS
Apr 12th 2023
70
the fuck are you yapping about now?
Apr 13th 2023
78
Please enlighten us
Apr 13th 2023
79
      she stated her opinion in post #23
Apr 13th 2023
81
Guns, parenting, internet, mental illness. toxic cocktail of all, not on...
Apr 12th 2023
68

Oak27
Member since Apr 17th 2005
13192 posts
Thu May-26-22 03:21 PM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
1. "That fact school shootings are a *thing* is a major part of it IMO"
In response to Reply # 0
Thu May-26-22 03:22 PM by Oak27

  

          

Growing up the idea of someone coming to school with a gun and shooting up kids was unimaginable, it wasn't on our radar. Then Columbine happened and school shooting became part of our imaginative lexicon, and as they started to happen more and more frequently it's become normalized and just another (extreme) part of life.

"Shoot up the school" is now a legitimate, popular option for troubled kids who are either getting bullied at school, have a shitty home life or just have mental health issues that aren't being addressed/treated. Decades ago you either had to just take it on the chin or take it out on someone else, but the idea of bringing a gun to school and killing a bunch of people was unthinkable and super farfetched if the thought did cross your mind.

Now it's gotten to the point where that is just an endgame. Whether the shooters feel they have no other option or want to go out in a blaze of glory and be immortalized forever, they are constantly reminded in the years leading up to their turn that this is just a thing you can do and is clearly effective in achieving whatever it is you are trying to achieve.

The playbook has been written and executed to success frequently and the team on the other side of the field is too busy fighting over how to play defense that the shooters keep scoring over and over and over.

(I know you were more broad with asking about mass shootings, but given the most recent example was a school shooting I was focusing on those)

  

Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

    
PimpTrickGangstaClik
Member since Oct 06th 2005
15894 posts
Thu May-26-22 03:30 PM

Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
2. "True. And I think this logic applies more broadly too"
In response to Reply # 1


          

White domestic terrorists are copying each other's playbooks.

_______________________________________

  

Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

PROMO
Charter member
30966 posts
Thu May-26-22 04:21 PM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy listClick to send message via AOL IM
3. "i mean, long and short: unchecked capitalism is causing it."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

the pressures of our system are creating the mental illness in a myriad of ways.

  

Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

    
Brew
Member since Nov 23rd 2002
24419 posts
Fri May-27-22 08:56 AM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy listClick to send message via AOL IM
10. "^"
In response to Reply # 3


          

----------------------------------------

"Fuck aliens." © WarriorPoet415

  

Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

    
Thee Phantom
Member since Jul 18th 2005
2775 posts
Sat Apr-15-23 09:53 AM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy listClick to send message via AOL IM
83. "Most Crime (Sex Crimes Not Included)"
In response to Reply # 3


          

Point to lack of resources and the compounding issues that creates.

IG: @illharmonic.orchestra
Youtube: www.youtube.com/theephantom

  

Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

shockvalue
Charter member
562 posts
Thu May-26-22 04:47 PM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
4. "Hopelessness and desperation have to be at all-time highs in the USA "
In response to Reply # 0


          

At least during the post-civil rights era.

I theorize this based on observing that normal serious crimes like homicide have risen so dramatically in the last few years of the pandemic (in some places, back to near the all-time highs we all know were set around 1990), IN SPITE of it being so much harder to get away with serious crimes nowadays.

Crime doesn't pay (or at the very least, ensuring it does requires an almost monk-like level of commitment--you definitely can't carry a cellphone), so a lot of professional criminal careers are basically defunct, like blacksmithing.

Stick-up boys? Committing armed robberies against random people, IRL, in our Ring camera panopticon? You will be in prison after the first one, especially if you own a cellphone.

So who is making up the difference in these numbers? The desperate, irrational actors, the mentally ill homeless who we have so many more of now, etc.

IMO it's a direct relationship to the larger % of the population who are squeezed by the pressures of life.

More people at the bottom=more people falling through the cracks.

--

Woe unto him who in this world courts not dishonor.

  

Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

IsaIsaIsa
Member since May 01st 2008
5862 posts
Thu May-26-22 04:54 PM

Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy listClick to send message via AOL IM
5. "Various factors, but I will say this nation was founded by homicidal"
In response to Reply # 0
Thu May-26-22 04:55 PM by IsaIsaIsa

          

racists, so maybe we're just seeing the fruit from those trees.

Also corporate interests are deemed more important than human interests, plus all the politicians are FAKE AF. Some might even say they need the gun control & aborition rights issues ALIVE to stay relevant.

http://art-------school.com/

https://ibb.co/k4m6n8C

  

Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

Adwhizz
Member since Nov 12th 2003
40926 posts
Thu May-26-22 06:07 PM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy listClick to send message via AOL IM
6. "I seriously believe lead in the water is causing people to kirk"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

out.

You can't tell me that that's JUST an issue in Flint Michigan


I remember reading back before gas was switched to unleaded that violent crime rates used to be way higher.

R.I.P. Loud But Wrong Guy
Dec 29th 2009 - Dec 17th 2017

  

Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

allStah
Member since Jun 21st 2014
9816 posts
Thu May-26-22 06:19 PM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
7. "In 1994, President Clinton signed a bill banning all semiautomatic "
In response to Reply # 0


          

assault rifles. The following decade, the amount of mass shootings occurring
in the USA dropped significantly.

The ban expired in 2004 and wasn’t renewed. Gun makers started to heavily
produce semiautomatic assault rifles. Sales went through the roof, and the number
of mass shootings in the USA skyrocketed....and that’s where we are today.

Republicans created this problem. Safety measures were in place to
keep the sale and use of guns under control, but they didn’t keep legislation in place.

Also, the electronic gaming industry is just as guilty. This is the main platform where
kids are educated on the different types of guns that exist and how to use them. Games
like Call of Duty are nothing but simulators on how to use guns. Those games have libraries and catalogs of firearms and ammunitions. Kids have become masters in the
use of firearm even before they learn to drive.

Video games didn’t have that in the 80s. We were playing galaxy or donkey Kong,
and duck hunt was the only true shooter game, which was a focus on hunting. We
weren’t loading up AR-15s in games, and getting extra points to buy new weaponry.

ALL HAIL THE KING of LOSING: LEBRON
Bulls | Bears | White Sox | Yankees | Notre Dame | Illinois | Chelsea | Real Madrid

  

Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

jimaveli
Charter member
6613 posts
Thu May-26-22 07:08 PM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
8. "RE: What is driving the increased frequency of mass shootings in the US"
In response to Reply # 0
Thu May-26-22 07:11 PM by jimaveli

  

          

There’s no one thing imo. Here’s a random guess of something that contributes…

People are constantly being sold conflict, sadness, and/or despair of some kind. Online. On tv. In pretty much any kind of media. Certainly rotten ass social media! Everything has to be ranked and compared and argued about until it seems like no one can just like/enjoy something without having SOME MFer swing in on a rope from somewhere to icewater challenge that shit by explaining, usually angrily, how some seemingly liked thing isn’t all that good. Or some shit from before was better. Or how some shit that’s coming soon is obviously gonna be better. Or how like some thing speaks poorly of someone’s morals or whatever. What!? SHUT UP! Who are these people who feel the need to do this type of shit all day long!?

How could that not impact younger, more impressionable people who are just looking to find their way in the world..sometimes with little to no real base, foundation, and/or sensibility to go back to? How long does it take to develop a little ‘fuck these miserable crybabies, I’m gonna enjoy the shit I enjoy’? Are there enough people still capable of releasing some of that into their brains? What do the people who don’t have that somewhere in their minds do with all of this turmoil and conflict they’re surrounded by all the time if they can’t/won’t/don’t find a way to disconnect?

I think they get poisoned by it. And they start doing it with everything in their lives until they are convinced that their life sux. EVEN IF IT FUCKING DOESN’T.

Also:

These politicians? C’mon now. Soul of our country on the line? Make it great? If you don’t fight you won’t have a kuntree anymore? Everything is the fucking final countdown? Every election? Every vote? Every issue? Every recession? Every crime? Every scandal? Really?

Sooooooo many shows in multiple different outlets have a format devoted to arguing about a subject. And they furnish the show with people who just happen to disagree on damn near everything. How convenient!

And of course, the hunt for ratings and clicks means this type of content is bad boys for life..aka it ain’t going nowhere as long as people feed that type of shit content. But I can’t help but think this shit shapes some people. And the people who are struggling the most with it might find themselves doing highly damaging stuff to themselves and/or others.

>The availability of guns are definitely a major factor. But
>that can't be the only reason, right? I mean, it's never been
>difficult to get guns in this country.
>
>There's also been and increase in the willingness to commit
>these acts
>
>Is it a rise in mental illness over time? If so, is the US
>unique in this regard? Because I don't think mass attacks
>(shooting or otherwise) occur in other countries at this
>frequency. And why would mental illness be increasing?
>
>Is it media coverage (and/or social media)?The fact that
>someone can instantly go from unknown to world famous.
>
>Something else?
>
>

  

Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

Reeq
Member since Mar 11th 2013
16347 posts
Thu May-26-22 11:44 PM

Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
9. "its the guns."
In response to Reply # 0
Thu May-26-22 11:47 PM by Reeq

          

https://twitter.com/biannagolodryga/status/1529951580245610498
-----
“Before the assault weapons ban went into effect in 1994, there were about 400,000 AR-15 style rifles in America. Today, there are 20 million.” Jaw dropping figure from @ZushaElinson, who is writing a book on the country’s best selling rifle.
-----


america has had more violent crime in the past, more serial killers, etc.

so the impulse to kill has always been there.

what changed is the availability of weapons that allow people to be more effective in killing multiple people in a shorter amount of time.

  

Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

    
GNT1986
Member since Dec 09th 2011
136 posts
Sun May-29-22 08:58 AM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
30. "^^^"
In response to Reply # 9


          

in 2004 the assault weapons ban expired and was not renewed.

since then, the number of mass shootings in the US has ballooned.

https://twitter.com/mikejason73/status/1529992509920890884

  

Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

    
Frank Longo
Member since Nov 18th 2003
86672 posts
Sun May-29-22 09:20 AM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
31. "^^^"
In response to Reply # 9


  

          

My movies: http://russellhainline.com
My movie reviews: https://letterboxd.com/RussellHFilm/
My beer TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@thebeertravelguide

  

Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
79594 posts
Fri May-27-22 09:49 AM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
11. "AR-15’s.. damn near every mass murder involves this weapon"
In response to Reply # 0


          

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

makaveli
Charter member
16303 posts
Fri May-27-22 10:12 AM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
12. "It’s the guns"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Mental health and other things are factors, but it’s definitely the amount of and easy access to guns.

“So back we go to these questions — friendship, character… ethics.”

  

Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

Kira
Member since Nov 14th 2004
28844 posts
Fri May-27-22 10:42 AM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
13. "The inability to thoroughly punish white people is the answer."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

The inability to thoroughly punish white people is the answer.

Laws and regulations exist to thwart mass shootings in schools. For example, Crumbley's school officials could've began a process to punish him harshly prior to that massacre but they refused to because he's white. At bare minimum they should've checked his bookbag.

They paraded Rittenhouse around like a hero and sent a message to everyone. They'll protect a white supremacist killer as much as possible with blatant disregard to established law. They let white women and men get away with calling police for bogus reasons on dark skinned people across the country. The Amy Cooper situation is evidence of that fact.

Anyone using mental health or guns as an excuse is wrong. History shows that local officials refuse to enforce laws as is. Sheriffs around the country refuse to enforce any gun regulation that impacts white people.

Society provides these privileged losers with every advantage and refuses to punish them. Not listening to any bs about altering gun laws or placing emphasis on mental health.

Punish these domestic terrorists thoroughly with lengthy jail sentences without parole as a start.

Punish school districts that refuse to enforce pre existing policy upon prospective killers like Crumbley with mass firings as a minimum punishment.

Punish coward police officers by denying pensions, docking pay, and universal dismissal from the field entirely for incompetency once shootings occur. Punish police departments with reduced funding as a result of incompetence. Use those millions on the communjty.

Punish the parents of domestic terrorists that enable their children with loss of careers and jail time.

No empathy for white misery (c) BDot

"root for everybody black haters say that's crazy, wow..."

  

Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

    
legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
79594 posts
Fri May-27-22 11:42 AM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
16. "pretty sure every mass murderer does life in jail"
In response to Reply # 13


          

I don’t think adding another 5 lifetimes of punishment or death will deter them.

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

        
Adwhizz
Member since Nov 12th 2003
40926 posts
Thu Apr-13-23 07:22 AM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy listClick to send message via AOL IM
77. "If not killed either by the cops or offing themselves"
In response to Reply # 16


  

          

in a stand off

R.I.P. Loud But Wrong Guy
Dec 29th 2009 - Dec 17th 2017

  

Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

fontgangsta
Member since Sep 04th 2005
5467 posts
Fri May-27-22 11:11 AM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
14. "yes, it can"
In response to Reply # 0
Fri May-27-22 11:13 AM by fontgangsta

  

          

> The availability of guns are definitely a major factor. But that can't be the only reason, right?

politicians have decided to trade our safety in exchange for unfettered access to military grade weaponry for the populous (and for money and power for themselves personally, of course) - and so we're left holding the bag and looking for other solutions and reasons and justifications for this nonsense.

If they dont make that trade, the other aspects of this issue suddenly look a lot less scary and daunting. Its hard for me to look around the world and then somehow convince myself that this is a complicated issue. Its not.

Yes, guns have never been difficult to get here...or a lot of other places. But when OTHER places experience this kind of event, they respond by restricting guns, and the results are a drastic reduction in this kind of thing.

That doesnt happen here because congress and the NRA got in bed together circa the 1970s, and blocked us from implementing the kind of restrictions that have gone into place in every other country after they experience ONE mass shooting.

For the record - i actually dont care all that much. im a self-centered, callous motherfucker. I dont go to school or church. I dont have kids. And my chances of being in a shooting, while higher in the US than most other places, are still exceedingly tiny.

But I'm also not a rube - so when people line up to tell me that the US gun problem somehow isn't actually about guns - lol ok. I'd rather folks just be honest with themselves and admit that they're OK w the status quo rather than trying to bamboozle everyone with a "mental health" charade.

  

Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

Mynoriti
Charter member
38818 posts
Fri May-27-22 11:37 AM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
15. "multiple drivers but your post is about MASS SHOOTINGS"
In response to Reply # 0
Fri May-27-22 11:59 AM by Mynoriti

  

          

as a few others have pointed out, the tool which these *mass shootings* are committed with is the constant.

so whether the motivation is racism, anti-semitism, outsider 4chan kid mad at the world, disgruntled employee, religious extremism..

yes mental health is an obvious factor, which should make it obvious to anyone who isn't a moron that at the very very very least someone who displays mental illness shouldn't have easy access to a killing machine.

I'm a gun owner but this shit is madness. no one needs an AR15, or an AK any more than they need a missile launcher.. and since they're not going anywhere, the idea that the average citizen can just buy rambo ass weapons without any type of training or certification shows what a dumbfuck backwards country we are.

People are still making goofy comparisons to cars, pointing out that these mentally ill people could drive into a crowded area and mow people down.. sure they can, and it has happened... but aside from that you need to be trained and licensed to drive a car, and registered yearly, the car's reason for existence isn't to fucking run people over.

These high powered guns literally only have one purpose and that's to kill as many people in as short a time as possible. they're WMDs

  

Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

ThaTruth
Charter member
99998 posts
Fri May-27-22 11:45 AM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
17. "mostly scared white people"
In response to Reply # 0


          

________________________________________
"Take the surprise out your voice Shaq."-The REAL CP3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2H5K-BUMS0

  

Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

Cocobrotha2
Charter member
10884 posts
Fri May-27-22 11:46 AM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
18. "I think it's a deeper, cultural issue"
In response to Reply # 0
Fri May-27-22 12:10 PM by Cocobrotha2

          

I think fewer people are learning constructive ways to cope with negative emotions and are more isolated than ever so they don't have communities looking out for them.

I think an emotionally stable person that's been trained to cope with their emotions and has the support of a constructive community can own a gun, listen to profane music and play violent video games without lashing out against others or society when they're going through a tough time.

I think you learn those skills through your family but also through your community... by being a part of church, the Boy Scouts, and other clubs and constructive communities. Those communities are also there to step in to GET us help if there is a serious mental health issue.

Without these communities and coping skills, I think that's when people start trying to figure things out for themselves by copying what they see in the media ( I do think these shootings are essentially a meme now) or joining destructive communities (like the ones that motivated the Buffalo shooter).

I think we have to find a way to promote more healthy communities and healthy connections to turn this around. In the mean time, I think we have to limit some of the freedoms we've enjoyed because it sure seems individuals in our society increasingly do not know how to wield them maturely.


<-><-><-><-><-><-><-><-><->
<-><-><-><-><-><-><-><-><->

  

Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

    
legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
79594 posts
Fri May-27-22 12:20 PM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
20. "when I hear about dudes who NEVER talked to women"
In response to Reply # 18


          

and use those online classes on how to “pick up chicks” it blows my mind.

dudes who spend all day in their room online..

yeah, those types are scary af.

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

flipnile
Member since Nov 05th 2003
13573 posts
Fri May-27-22 11:47 AM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
19. "CIA/FBI"
In response to Reply # 0


          

  

Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

    
PimpTrickGangstaClik
Member since Oct 06th 2005
15894 posts
Fri May-27-22 12:27 PM

Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
21. "I don't want to dive in to the conspiracy theory rabbit hole...but..."
In response to Reply # 19


          

They're looking into if a retired Fed was aware of the Buffalo plans in advance.

https://buffalonews.com/news/local/authorities-investigating-if-retired-federal-agent-knew-of-buffalo-mass-shooting-plans-in-advance/article_bd408f18-dd39-11ec-be53-df8fdd095d6f.html

Law enforcement officers are investigating whether a retired federal agent had about 30 minutes advance notice of a white supremacist's plans to murder Black people at a Buffalo supermarket, two law enforcement officials told The Buffalo News.

Authorities believe the former agent – believed to be from Texas – was one of at least six individuals who regularly communicated with accused gunman Payton Gendron in an online chat room where racist hatred was discussed, the two officials said.

The two law enforcement sources with direct knowledge of the investigation stated these individuals were invited by Gendron to read about his mass shooting plans and the target location about 30 minutes before Gendron killed 10 people at Tops Markets on Jefferson Avenue on May 14.

The News could not determine if the retired agent accepted the invitation.

Agents from the FBI are in the process of tracking down and interviewing the six people, including the retired agent, and attempting to determine if any of them should be charged as accomplices, the two sources with close knowledge of the probe told The Buffalo News.

Federal authorities are investigating if the retired agent provided information to Gendron before he went on his shooting spree, the two law enforcement officials told The News.

In addition to law enforcement sources, two other individuals with knowledge of the mass shooting investigation have also confirmed that federal authorities are looking into the former agent’s relationship to the shooter.

_______________________________________

  

Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

    
Cold Truth
Member since Jan 28th 2004
44843 posts
Sat May-28-22 11:53 PM

Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
26. "Please elaborate on what you're saying, exactly. "
In response to Reply # 19


  

          

  

Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

MEAT
Member since Feb 08th 2008
22257 posts
Fri May-27-22 01:10 PM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
22. "Guns"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

------
“There is no fate that cannot be surmounted by scorn.” -Albert Camus

  

Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

Damali
Member since Sep 12th 2002
35865 posts
Fri May-27-22 09:29 PM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
23. "the factors exist in a perfect triangle, and y'all are missing one side ..."
In response to Reply # 0
Fri May-27-22 09:33 PM by Damali

          

most of y'all got two sides of the triangle correct: white supremacy and capitalism.

....but the one that so many of y'all are too myopic to recognize and unpack is PATRIARCHY/TOXIC MASCULINITY

(for those that may be triggered, 'masculinity' is wonderful and beautiful. 'toxic masculinity' is reductive and destructive)

99.9% of the shooters are male. boys and men...you cannot leave that out of the analysis if you want a real answer to the question...you just can't

girls are bullied too...girls are being radicalized too. girls have mental health and social problems too. but they aren't shooting up schools. why?

but that's not the question being asked so we'll leave that aside.

White Supremacy, Patriarchy and Capitalism are the 3 pillars of this country. They are parasitic forces that feed on each other and the entire population

their confluence is particularly dangerous (and seductive and addictive) to boys and men...especially white ones...but even black ones

alot of y'all here...Black men...actively push back against the evils of capitalism and white supremacy, but enjoy the spoils, privileges and perks that partriarchy affords you. you ain't fighting that...at least not hard enough...cuz you benefit from it...

i'll stop there cuz i don't think y'all are really ready to have this convo and the replies to this will likely be evidence of that.

love y'all, always. men and boys are precious and I want y'all to grow.

d

P.S. yes of course, no one should have access to a weapon that can kill 50 people in 3 minutes, but those guns are the symptom and not the root cause.

I don't speak to provoke. I speak because I think our time is short and each moment that we are not our truest selves, and we say what we do not mean because we imagine that is what somebody wants us to say, is wasting our time on this Earth - C. Adichie

  

Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

    
Brotha Sun
Member since Dec 31st 2009
6778 posts
Sun May-29-22 09:41 AM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
32. "patriarchy is a group project. the "group" isnt who you think it is"
In response to Reply # 23


          

the white patriarchy you speak of is upheld by white men and women.

53% of white women voted for trump because they thought he would protect them from rapist black and mexican men, outgroup males.

There's a reason cops are killing and imprisoning black men at nearly 10x the rate of black women

if "patriarchy" was some all inclusive mens club you claim it is then wouldn't the material benefits of "male privilege" trickle down to non white men?

"Toxic masculinity" isnt some abstract spirit that lies dormant in all people with penises

Kyle Rittenhouse's mother said she's proud of him. Because the project of white supremacy relies on white womanhood and the "protection" of it as the incentive.

Its kinda wild that these mass shootings and terrorist attacks in stores, churches, and schools are not being done by black men and yet your focus is black men checking their privilege.

love you too, d.

"They used to call me Baby Luke....but now? The whole damn 2 Liiiive Crew."

  

Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

        
Damali
Member since Sep 12th 2002
35865 posts
Sun May-29-22 01:51 PM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
38. "RE: patriarchy is a group project. the "group" isnt who you think it is"
In response to Reply # 32


          



>if "patriarchy" was some all inclusive mens club you claim it
>is then wouldn't the material benefits of "male privilege"
>trickle down to non white men?

they do/you do. Your inability to recognize that is exactly what i'm talking about

>"Toxic masculinity" isnt some abstract spirit that lies
>dormant in all people with penises

I agree. I didn't say it was. As usual, you arguing shit that i didn't even say just to argue with me LOL


>Its kinda wild that these mass shootings and terrorist attacks
>in stores, churches, and schools are not being done by black
>men and yet your focus is black men checking their privilege.


that's not the focus of what i said..its what YOU focused on, of course.

d


I don't speak to provoke. I speak because I think our time is short and each moment that we are not our truest selves, and we say what we do not mean because we imagine that is what somebody wants us to say, is wasting our time on this Earth - C. Adichie

  

Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

            
Brotha Sun
Member since Dec 31st 2009
6778 posts
Sun May-29-22 03:05 PM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
39. "name the benefits."
In response to Reply # 38


          

"They used to call me Baby Luke....but now? The whole damn 2 Liiiive Crew."

  

Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

                
Damali
Member since Sep 12th 2002
35865 posts
Tue May-31-22 12:31 PM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
42. "do your own research if it really matters to you"
In response to Reply # 39


          

i'm not here to prove anything to you or convince you that the sky is blue.

therefore, you can consider yourself to have 'won' this argument.

wish u all the best, mate.

d

I don't speak to provoke. I speak because I think our time is short and each moment that we are not our truest selves, and we say what we do not mean because we imagine that is what somebody wants us to say, is wasting our time on this Earth - C. Adichie

  

Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

                    
Brotha Sun
Member since Dec 31st 2009
6778 posts
Tue May-31-22 01:20 PM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
44. "there's nothing to win here, just trying to get to the truth. nm"
In response to Reply # 42


          

"They used to call me Baby Luke....but now? The whole damn 2 Liiiive Crew."

  

Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

                        
Damali
Member since Sep 12th 2002
35865 posts
Tue May-31-22 01:59 PM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
46. "glad to hear that. i encourage you to sincerely research it."
In response to Reply # 44


          

i don't explain white supremacy to white people anymore and i don't explain patriarchy to men anymore. its too draining for me, as a Black woman, to continue fighting on two fronts. i'm fine w/either group being wholly unconvinced of their dominance.

d

I don't speak to provoke. I speak because I think our time is short and each moment that we are not our truest selves, and we say what we do not mean because we imagine that is what somebody wants us to say, is wasting our time on this Earth - C. Adichie

  

Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

                            
Brotha Sun
Member since Dec 31st 2009
6778 posts
Wed Jun-01-22 11:42 AM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
51. "Are you seeing the pattern yet?"
In response to Reply # 46


          

1. You make a loaded statement

2. Someone engages with you and asks for an elaboration

3. You try to end the conversation


i did my research, and by nearly every metric you can think of, black men aren't doing better than black women. statistically, you will outlive every mf in this thread.

"They used to call me Baby Luke....but now? The whole damn 2 Liiiive Crew."

  

Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

                
kayru99
Member since Jan 26th 2004
16105 posts
Wed Jun-01-22 08:47 AM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
50. "Bruh, lol. This is where it always falls apart."
In response to Reply # 39


          

  

Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

                    
Brotha Sun
Member since Dec 31st 2009
6778 posts
Wed Jun-01-22 11:42 AM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
52. "lol on god."
In response to Reply # 50


          

"They used to call me Baby Luke....but now? The whole damn 2 Liiiive Crew."

  

Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

rdhull
Charter member
33135 posts
Sat May-28-22 10:06 PM

Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
24. "overpopulation and the food industry"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

  

Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

Thee Phantom
Member since Jul 18th 2005
2775 posts
Sat May-28-22 10:52 PM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy listClick to send message via AOL IM
25. "Not to Scare Anybody But..."
In response to Reply # 0


          

There has been a push for ethnic genocide by very seedy Right Wing websites and media for a very long time now.

I went on Breitbart a few years back when #Trump was President and I couldn't believe half of the stuff I was seeing. I didn't last 2 days surfing that site. That January 6th stuff was just the tip of the iceberg.

The Buffalo shooter was radicalized by that stuff and wants his day in court so he can say it in front of cameras, a jury and an audience.

They really do believe that Replacement Theory rhetoric they're running with and they will do whatever they can to keep the US the way it is.

IG: @illharmonic.orchestra
Youtube: www.youtube.com/theephantom

  

Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

    
Kira
Member since Nov 14th 2004
28844 posts
Sun May-29-22 01:10 AM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
29. "A push?????? There's an official military field manual...."
In response to Reply # 25


  

          

>There has been a push for ethnic genocide by very seedy Right
>Wing websites and media for a very long time now.
>
>I went on Breitbart a few years back when #Trump was President
>and I couldn't believe half of the stuff I was seeing. I
>didn't last 2 days surfing that site. That January 6th stuff
>was just the tip of the iceberg.
>
>The Buffalo shooter was radicalized by that stuff and wants
>his day in court so he can say it in front of cameras, a jury
>and an audience.
>
>They really do believe that Replacement Theory rhetoric
>they're running with and they will do whatever they can to
>keep the US the way it is.
>

This manual is found on the internet archive and describes in detail specific tactics and targets. It's called ethnic cleansing and specifically mentions the black community.

No empathy for white misery (c) BDot

"root for everybody black haters say that's crazy, wow..."

  

Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

Cold Truth
Member since Jan 28th 2004
44843 posts
Sun May-29-22 12:31 AM

Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
27. "."
In response to Reply # 0
Sun May-29-22 12:57 AM by Cold Truth

  

          

.

  

Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

Cold Truth
Member since Jan 28th 2004
44843 posts
Sun May-29-22 01:05 AM

Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
28. "I think most of these are intended to be murder-suicides."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

I think there's a sense of having nothing to live for, and within that, decided to no longer participate in the broader social system, *and* want to make someone pay on the way out.

To be clear: I'm not conflating suicidal thinking/inclination with being a mass shooter. I think whatever murderous urges these people have predate the inclination to stop participating- but once they've decided to stop participating, they've removed the last barrier to such an action.

By contrast, serial killers tend to continue participating, because they want to be able to continue their killing. That's what they live for, and so they tend to put in some effort to maintain appearances.

But these shootings, nobody goes into them with the idea that they'll just go home and back to normal. I think they all expect to die or get arrested for it.

Many of these seem to be outsiders, lonely people who don't fit in, and this is a way of becoming something "above" the society that shut them out. For clarity, I'm not saying this as though that's necessarily always true, or implying that they haven't done things to get themselves shut out. There are certainly plenty of layers to that part of this.

To that end, not fitting in/being shut out/being wronged/etc- for whatever reason- still seems like a common thread. There's also that layer of radicalization, however I think that is more of a symptom in most cases.

So, if they can't join society, they can certainly hurt it.

But more than that, they'll be remembered for it- if not their names or faces, then in the pain and suffering they've left in their wake.

And now, suddenly, they're somebody significant, who has left an indelible mark on society.

Nobody remembers douchebag Steve, who stuffed them in the lockers, or the women who chose some Chad over them, or whatever. But everyone will remember the lives they took, the pain they caused, etc, forever.


So I think that if we look, we'll likely find a common thread that they have given up trying to fit into the world around them, hence my thinking that these all originate as a suicidal inclination of some kind.

For those that may see that and think that this somehow maligns those who have given up on life or who deal with serious suicidal thinking, let me clear:

That is not an implication that suicidal people are at risk of becoming mass shooters, anymore than someone is for being male.

Neither is feeling lonely or ostracized. Plenty of people feel that way and find ways to deal with it that do not involved murder.

But in these cases, since they've decided to participate that broader social system, they've decided not just to take some others with them, but to leave their mark on that social system in a way that can't really be ignored.

In other words, it's not that they have nothing to lose, it's that want to both take and leave some things on the way out.

it's not that I think these are the exact thoughts that run through their minds, but I do think that those general threads are running in the background.

Combine all that with the ease of access as well as the fact that there are just so many of them?

For those who have decided that they want to make the world pay a tax on their own suffering, the blueprint is right in front of their faces. It's a perfect storm where all of that can be easily and reasonably reduced to something much simpler and more succinct:

Because they can.

Again, I'm neither an expert or even a well-read amateur. This is just the general sense I have, but I do think there's at least a little meat on these bones..

  

Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

Brotha Sun
Member since Dec 31st 2009
6778 posts
Sun May-29-22 09:52 AM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
33. "we've been putting band aids on america's racism and the boat is sinking"
In response to Reply # 0


          

for about 200 years.

but more recently, we're teaching kids with negligent parents to worship cops, military, superheroes, action movie stars, as "real men" and "real americans" but these kids have no real direction outside of that.

we also have a dysfunctional political party system that builds careers off of pretending these economic problems dont exist (or claiming the source of the problem is immigrants) while pumping trillions into the military and bailing out corporations.

the cops cannot be held accountable via law or society, so obviously these shooters want to be volunteer cops.

these shootings will be inevitable for the time being.

i mean shit, they're all releasing manifestos telling you exactly why they are doing these shootings. those negros and mexicans taking our jobs and women.

they been told by their community and media their identity relies on 3 things: getting women, making money (for women), killing nonwhite men (for women)

so what happens when they have no women but hella guns their mommy and daddy bought them for their 18th birthday?

"They used to call me Baby Luke....but now? The whole damn 2 Liiiive Crew."

  

Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

MEAT
Member since Feb 08th 2008
22257 posts
Sun May-29-22 10:54 AM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
34. "18 year olds can buy a long rifle in Canada"
In response to Reply # 0
Sun May-29-22 10:55 AM by MEAT

  

          

They have to get a license but AR15s and handguns are banned
They’ve had like three school shootings in 20 years or something
Its the guns and the ease of guns

------
“There is no fate that cannot be surmounted by scorn.” -Albert Camus

  

Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

    
handle
Charter member
18951 posts
Sun May-29-22 10:57 AM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
35. "Guns + the gun culture radically shifting to the right"
In response to Reply # 34


          

It's mainly the guns - we should focus on the guns.



------------


Gone: My Discogs collection for The Roots:
http://www.discogs.com/user/tomhayes-roots/collection

  

Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

makaveli
Charter member
16303 posts
Sun May-29-22 11:44 AM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
36. "According to Ted Cruz it’s the doors"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Not only do these people not care about children being slaughtered, they are gaslighting us about it.

“So back we go to these questions — friendship, character… ethics.”

  

Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

    
Mynoriti
Charter member
38818 posts
Sun May-29-22 12:19 PM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
37. "the shameless confidence he spit that bullshit with"
In response to Reply # 36


  

          

is almost impressive.

he went to the nra thing the other day and spewed the "good guy with a gun" line like this shit didn't just happen

like if only there were 20 good guy with a guns instead of 19

  

Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

        
tariqhu
Charter member
17890 posts
Sun May-29-22 05:29 PM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy listClick to send message via AOL IM
40. "continually proving they're ok with this stuff happening."
In response to Reply # 37


          

Y'all buy those labels, I was born supreme

  

Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

            
Mynoriti
Charter member
38818 posts
Tue May-31-22 01:00 PM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
43. "if it's weighed against their personal interest, they're def ok with it"
In response to Reply # 40


  

          

even Jon Voigt's loony ass dropped a video this week saying we need stricter gun regulation, but he has nothing to lose, so you can assume he believes it, the same way he actually believes all his crazy trump stuff.

Cruz and these clowns don't care about 2A rights or any of this shit outside of how it affects them. and any time he's ever displayed a hint of spine (trying to stand up for his wife & dad, calling Jan 6 an act of terror) he's quickly chincheked, and having to make amends. So if it's between even tepidly sticking up for dead children, and spending 2 days groveling to Tucker over doing it, he'll chose dead kids every time.

  

Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

thegodcam
Member since Oct 22nd 2004
41497 posts
Tue May-31-22 05:22 AM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy listClick to send message via AOL IM
41. "Bowling for Columbine came out 20 years ago.... it's the guns"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hH0mSAjp_Jw

*******************************************************
i will not let finite disappointment undermine infinite hope
- Cory Booker

Football is a simple game; 22 men chase a ball for 90 minutes, and at the end the Germans always win
- Gary Lineker

  

Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

Cenario
Member since Aug 24th 2005
59181 posts
Tue May-31-22 01:50 PM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
45. "There were 14 mass shootings over memorial day weekend"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

they are defining a mass shooting as an incident with 4 or more people shot (not including the shooter). they don't lay out each case, and i wouldn't include a shooting with people firing at each other in the same vein as this conversation so its hard to decipher.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/memorial-day-weekend-marked-dozen-mass-shootings-us-rcna31179

-The Knicks’ coaching search still includes a lone frontrunner, Kurt Rambis, whose qualifications for the position include a strong relationship with Jackson and a willingness to take the job.

  

Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

    
MEAT
Member since Feb 08th 2008
22257 posts
Tue May-31-22 09:21 PM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
48. "The fact that we have to be pedants over what a mass shooting is ..."
In response to Reply # 45


  

          

------
“There is no fate that cannot be surmounted by scorn.” -Albert Camus

  

Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
79594 posts
Tue May-31-22 02:43 PM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
47. "white christian nationalism… and guns, of course its the guns"
In response to Reply # 0


          

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

kayru99
Member since Jan 26th 2004
16105 posts
Wed Jun-01-22 08:43 AM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
49. "as the social infrastructure falls apart the settler colonial "
In response to Reply # 0


          

underpinnings of our society are gonna get more apparent.

In other words, as the neoliberalism of the last 40 years starts spilling on more white folks, some of those white folks (and the POC who identify with them) are gonna go grab some guns and go full Manifest Destiny on whoever is around.
I expect there to be a lot more mass shootings targeting Black Americans as things get worse, if not outright ethnic cleansing attempts

  

Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

Amritsar
Member since Jan 18th 2008
32093 posts
Wed Jun-01-22 01:40 PM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
53. "Clearly it’s their economic anxiety "
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

  

Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

double negative
Member since Dec 14th 2007
22151 posts
Wed Jun-01-22 02:48 PM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
54. "we're way, waaaaaaaay past gun control + guns arent the problem"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

do we need more gun control?

yes.

that's an automatic given.


that said, I've been thinking it through and we're past the point of gun control, if we wanted gun control it should have happened 20 or 30 years ago.

Reduce the amount of manufactured guns and I still think we're in for a bad time. The ghost gun and 3d printed gun movement blew the doors off any sort of perception of control. Sure, 3D guns have a long (LONG) way to go, but the space is advancing at a rapid pace if you look at how far the tech has come since the Liberator first hit the scene in 2013.

It is my belief that the shootings are a consequence of untreated mental illness, untreated adverse childhood events, broken homes, social isolation, aggrieved entitlement, zero sum thinking, racism, xenophobia

I swear to god, all of these people have the same story - horrible childhood, unloved, awkward, unable to connect with people, unable to connect with reality, low self worth, distorted view of human relationships - it's all fertile ground for accepting comradery in all the wrong places.

***********************************************************
https://soundcloud.com/swageyph/yph-die-with-me

  

Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

    
Cold Truth
Member since Jan 28th 2004
44843 posts
Wed Jun-01-22 02:59 PM

Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
55. "Agreed, but the shootings happen because it's an option"
In response to Reply # 54


  

          

>It is my belief that the shootings are a consequence of
>untreated mental illness, untreated adverse childhood events,
>broken homes, social isolation, aggrieved entitlement, zero
>sum thinking, racism, xenophobia

Sure, these elements are a factor.

The problem is, a mass shooting is an end run. I contend that most of these would simply be suicides, or in certain cases, smaller scale murder-suicides in the home.

But there's a snowball effect here, and it's increasingly clear that, if you're going to go out, if you're someone who has anger and resentment toward the world around you, taking as many others with you as possible is an option.

It remains an option because these weapons are so readily available.

>I swear to god, all of these people have the same story -
>horrible childhood, unloved, awkward, unable to connect with
>people, unable to connect with reality, low self worth,
>distorted view of human relationships - it's all fertile
>ground for accepting comradery in all the wrong places.

Agreed, to an extent. I contend that those factors lead to these guys choosing to end their own lives, and deciding to make someone pay for their suffering on the way out.

If you remove the option for them to mow down people en masse within seconds, less people die as a result. Whatever the underlying factors that lead them to this point, if we remove this option by virtue of removing those weapons, we will have dramatically different results.

  

Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

    
legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
79594 posts
Wed Jun-01-22 03:05 PM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
56. "you can take out a whole school in the time it takes to print a gun"
In response to Reply # 54


          

and while mental illness is a problem half these people are just assholes.

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

ThaTruth
Charter member
99998 posts
Wed Apr-12-23 12:28 AM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
57. "It’s sad we’re almost numb to it now they don’t even get a post?"
In response to Reply # 0


          

________________________________________
"Take the surprise out your voice Shaq."-The REAL CP3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2H5K-BUMS0

  

Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

fif
Member since Feb 23rd 2004
1998 posts
Wed Apr-12-23 01:00 AM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
58. "the internet/smartphones"
In response to Reply # 0


          

have fundamentally shifted the way people relate to each other and the world. we've lost value to each other. the people in shared physical space are largely no longer necessary to us, we don't need the information they possess. we don't need to lean on the fence and talk to our next door neighbor about the happenings of the day...we can just go online to twitter, okp, blogs, etc and get "better" takes. we don't need to call mom to ask her how to cook the christmas ham, we can get a dozen recipes in seconds with a google search. we don't chat with the checkout clerk at the grocery store...we go to the self checkout. or we get them delivered to our door by amazon and never have to leave our home.

we, as a whole, and some individuals especially, are losing the ability to be together well. we don't gather in groups, discuss, come to consensus and take action in the world together. we passively soak in the light of the screenworld. on screens, we feel we are chopping it up with humans but we are deluded--addiction to simulations of human interaction that pale in comparison to the real thing.

very tired, not well put. but lots of thoughts on this, may try to make more coherent reply soon

  

Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

    
Mynoriti
Charter member
38818 posts
Wed Apr-12-23 01:29 AM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
60. "def not helping but those things aren't exclusive to the US"
In response to Reply # 58


  

          

same way mental health issues aren't

Im sure there are other cultural variables but really only one glaring one

  

Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

        
fif
Member since Feb 23rd 2004
1998 posts
Wed Apr-12-23 02:12 AM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
61. "not the only factor for sure"
In response to Reply # 60


          

but the tech is increasing the number of people isolated from irl others. but they aren't isolated anymore, are they? they can go on 4chan, okp etc and learn to hate through the screen. they can read the wikipedia, the manifestos of every mass shooter ever. (i don't think this info should be censored btw). when you look at mass shooters, many of them are very obsessed with mass shooters. now think about the isolated weirdo in 1978...he could go check out books about Charles Manson at the library maybe. but that requires a physical act. a sneaking around to dive into the mind of morally-deranged mass murderers.

now, everyone has their own private world, the screenworld. we have no idea what that dude we just passed on the sidewalk looks at, listens to when he goes home and plugs in to his preferred tech-opiate. everyone digs their own wormhole. it's a splintering of the knowledge stores within individual minds. when there are 4 sitcoms to choose from, most everyone you live near will have some ability to reference each. shared knowledge. we have less and less common reference points with those around us. we've become unintelligible to one another to an alarming extent.

this is a must read for background of primary current problem with usa, i think:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/jan/02/america-social-recession-less-friends-sex-mental-health
can't be dismissed as observer bias. something is very busted with how we relate to one another. the outsourcing of irl, speech interactions to the internet, text message....we losing recipes. this is historically unprecedented in important ways.

the iphone hits 2006. this shit is brand new and mass adoption took place with eye blink rapidity. and in usa quickly became total--everyone and their granny on it. everyone being on it makes it harder to see the degradation it is doing us. we leveling down...hard to diagnose the pathology of the aura within the aura.

point was, in regard to guns. yes this is a good point. america is unique with guns and that is resulting in a lot of people dying and tragedy has become a yawn. this is terrible. but i point to the technology as the root cause that is causing social disintegration, atomized individuals drifting into psychotic antisocial beliefs (often picked up 2nd hand...imagine some dude in a basement somewhere his eyes lighting up, embers in his soul growing hot as he reads Anders Breivik's manifesto)...these lonely, social-rejects...there are more of them now than ever before...and they are less reality-tested by irl interactions than ever before...there's no one to call them out on their shit cuz they have no (or far fewer than 1970) meaningful interactions with the people they share the local physical space with.

i'll stop rambling, not sure im making sense

  

Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

        
fif
Member since Feb 23rd 2004
1998 posts
Wed Apr-12-23 02:35 AM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
62. "another way of saying it "
In response to Reply # 60


          

is the tech is driving a huge divergence in mind. minds becoming less alike. information processing, knowledge...these drive neuro-plasticity. we can become very different from our neighbor in ways we couldn't before. back in the day, you can imagine the eccentric writer, the guy with books piled up everywhere. while his neighbor maybe knew the bible. the eccentric ain't living in the same world. but these eccentrics were oddities, singular weirdos. and still there were a finite number of physical books. now, not so much. it's like a gutenberg galaxy thing. marshall mcluhan. the printing press was invented by a catholic monk who would have been appalled to learn that after his death Luther used it to disseminate the bible in vernacular and create the greatest schism in the history of Christianity. the word was freed and it went everywhere and did a whole lot of things. descartes, leibniz, montaigne, pascal, bacon, newton, marx...etc. all cuz a monk wanted to make it easier for the catholic church to produce its own propaganda.

and the internet and this tech we are communicating on right now is on par with that. it is greater than that. everyone on okp...our lives have straddled epochs. this is just the beginning. all sorts of growing pains. people by and large have proven to be very bad at using the tech to change for the better. not maximizing it's utility nearly. one thing is we rely too much on visual forms and too little on reading meaningful texts and writing them ourselves. attention too shattered. words to hard to put on something that sweeps in and leaves the world so completely changed. your grandmother's world when she was 20 and this world rn? things done changed.

  

Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

            
ThaTruth
Charter member
99998 posts
Wed Apr-12-23 10:29 AM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
64. "wow I think you are spot on n/m"
In response to Reply # 62


          

________________________________________
"Take the surprise out your voice Shaq."-The REAL CP3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2H5K-BUMS0

  

Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

            
Walleye
Charter member
15522 posts
Wed Apr-12-23 07:46 PM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
69. "The Reformation in the Cities, Ozment"
In response to Reply # 62


          

Look, I really like it when people want to site the printing press as a key material factor in historical change, but there's a lot of things that aren't quite congruent with most scholarship about the social history you've strung together there. I really don't feel like getting in a thing about it, but I can promise you this is an area I know a little bit about so here are some books that I think you should take a look at:

That Reformation in the Cities by Stephen Ozment is a really good place to start if you're interested in treating the Reformation from a social history perspective. It's not very long or expensive. If you want to understand how continuous Reformation thought was with the previous centuries (going back before the use of the printing press in the west) then Heiko Oberman's "Dawn of the Reformation" is absolutely necessary but it's *really* difficult. Oberman's biography of Luther, "Man Between God and the Devil," is more accessible and would offer some useful insight Luther himself.

If you want to know about print culture in the late 15th and early 16th century prior to Luther, especially as it pertains to heterodox religious thought, Marcel Bataillon's "Erasmus and Spain" is available in English now, I think. It's a giant bear of a book, but it's really good. Way, way less known is Pierre Groult's "Les Mystiques des Pays-Bas" but it's crazy good and sheds a ton of light on how (like, the actual *how*) the printing press led to lines of ideological communication within and without the church. Though, more broadly (and more helpfully if your French is rusty) there's a great little book that used to be very popular but I don't think anybody still bothers with it called "The Cheese and the Worms" that deals with a single example of how this transmission worked in the period you're describing.

______________________________

"Walleye, a lot of things are going to go wrong in your life that technically aren't your fault. Always remember that this doesn't make you any less of an idiot"

--Walleye's Dad

  

Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

                
40thStreetBlack
Charter member
27116 posts
Wed Apr-12-23 10:52 PM

Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
71. "Yes you do!"
In response to Reply # 69


          

>there. I really don't feel like getting in a thing about it,

LOL

___________________

Mar-A-Lago delenda est

  

Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

                    
Walleye
Charter member
15522 posts
Thu Apr-13-23 05:48 AM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
74. "I mean, I guess I did anyhow"
In response to Reply # 71
Thu Apr-13-23 05:48 AM by Walleye

          

In 2006 I was taking an Early Christianity course in school and I had a really simple question for my professor about what Constantine's actual, personal religious view was about the Arian controversy. Just wanted to know whether he'd pick Arius or Athanasius, with no other political considerations or without the input of Nicea. I figured it was a kind of interesting question because he was the emperor who was basically remaking a church/state relationship on the fly and he probably could have tried to do whatever he wanted.

So I asked, and I got a reading list of about a dozen books. Some of which my professor was kind enough to loan me. She didn't answer the question directly though, because in her view wanting to understand something about this issue meant being willing to read (and read and read and read) about it. It was really annoying, but after I left and read (some, definitely not all) of the books she recommended, it kind of felt like respect. Like the difference between me was age and experience and that practically plays out as her having read way more books than me. I don't know. It felt really good?

You know I've been here like twenty years and so I'm periodically tempted to try that move here. I'm too old to argue with people like I used to, and it sometimes seems like maybe the gesture of respect that I was shown will play the same way. I do it with my students too. But it never really works on okayplayer, so I guess I've traded one way of being an asshole that worked really well for me (but was incredibly time consuming) for one that doesn't really work as well. So I'll keep shopping it.

______________________________

"Walleye, a lot of things are going to go wrong in your life that technically aren't your fault. Always remember that this doesn't make you any less of an idiot"

--Walleye's Dad

  

Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

                
fif
Member since Feb 23rd 2004
1998 posts
Thu Apr-13-23 02:24 AM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
72. "looks like a great list of books"
In response to Reply # 69


          

what's your argument? what are you claiming? where do you think we disagree?

you "really don't feel like getting in a thing about it". ok, fine.

but 'hey buddy, let me tell ya you're wrong' followed by a list of books...what's the point? would you like me to go read those thousands of pages and then come back and tell you how right you were?

it'd be easier for me to understand what you mean if you tell me.

---

"you're very well-read, it's well-known"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=we37yX3zpKA

  

Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

                    
Walleye
Charter member
15522 posts
Thu Apr-13-23 05:38 AM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
73. "To learn things about the late middle ages"
In response to Reply # 72


          

Some of what you wrote is factually incorrect. Other parts are pretty over-stated. But the point you're making, which I don't really care about, doesn't really depend on the time period except for an analogy so you could make that same point with a host of other examples so arguing with you about it seems pointless in this thread.

If you want to talk about Luther and Gutenberg and reform on the internet in an instructive way you should read those books. Everybody should read those books. And a bunch of other ones. This material will lead to a subtler but still clear understanding of an important material in history. I don't need you to tell me I'm right because more people understanding this period feels like one of those everybody wins things.

______________________________

"Walleye, a lot of things are going to go wrong in your life that technically aren't your fault. Always remember that this doesn't make you any less of an idiot"

--Walleye's Dad

  

Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

                        
fif
Member since Feb 23rd 2004
1998 posts
Thu Apr-13-23 06:24 AM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
75. "if you aint got no fight, cry uncle"
In response to Reply # 73


          

or is it that you are a pompous pseud?

>some of what you wrote is factually incorrect

point out a damn fact you think is wrong. lift your fingers, lazy boy. enlighten us! tell me what you are talking about. this ole lump of coal lumpenprole wanna learn good too. i wrote something loose off the top of my head. you seek no clarification while apparently inferring I hold all manner of beliefs and lacuna of knowledge. you can't possibly know all you think you know. there is not enough in the text of my posts. it is, of course, unclear what you believe because you are attempting a cowardly retreat without firing a shot. hiding behind an unsubstantiated claim that i lack the rigor and knowledge necessary to dialogue with you "in an instructive way". you of vaunted understanding--a man of such rarefied knowing that he can't be bothered to share it with the class.

>if you want to talk about Luther and Gutenberg and reform on the >internet in an instructive way you should read those books"

...hilarious gatekeeping. who the fuck are you?

---


you write awful sentences btw. carry on!

  

Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

                            
Walleye
Charter member
15522 posts
Thu Apr-13-23 08:23 AM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
80. "I'm not in a fight"
In response to Reply # 75


          

Mostly because I think your actual point regarding the role of the printing press is completely apt in general. It's one of my favorite ways to make a point - that leaps forward in communication technology are one of the best, most thorough ways to connect social, material, and intellectual history.

So this isn't an argument. I'm recommending some books about a historical moment you seem interested in because I've had some experience reading about that moment. But reading the books is better than hearing it from an anonymous stranger on the internet. If I write a long post, which I'm apparently about to do, then all you get is "walleye said this" and rejecting what I tell you would be utterly fair. Because everything I know about this period is from those (and other) books. And they're really good books that I think more people should read.

But sure, I can be more specific if you want:

I don't think Gutenberg was a monk. I looked it up when it seemed like you were saying that, and the closest I could find was maybe a loose affiliation with the Victorines and the slight possibility that he was a Franciscan tertiary. But neither of those roles are monks by any useful definition of the term.

That might seem like majoring in minors and maybe it is, and I guess it's possible that you're pointing to some other person credited with introducing the printing press in the west. But you mentioned Gutenberg and he's pretty commonly credited with the printing press so there you go. The reason why it might be important that he's not a monk is that you're drawing a really bright line social history (you're writing off the top of your head - so fair enough) that positions The Church and Gutenberg, the monk, as water carrier for the church on, explicitly, the issue of vernacular bibles and implicitly on the emerging issues of Luther's Reformation.

But the Church didn't draw a bright line on vernacular translations. Sometimes they were allowed. Sometimes they were even encouraged. Sometimes they were banned. The Vulgate itself was a vernacular translation, and the church self-consciously acknowledged the role of human translation in its production and, furthermore, the self-conscious selection of different editions of St. Jerome's translation. When it was time for Gutenberg to print his bible, they didn't have the option of choosing just The Vulgate. They needed to select a particular edition, and that selection process itself requires editorial decisions, which are the heart of translation.

Generally, the church had a fairly (I shouldn't exaggerate that - but "fairly" seems good enough) open stance toward vernacular translations of the bible. Innocent III's papacy and the next few popes leading up to the papal schism did, indeed, view restrictions on the vernacular bible as an important part of their desire to consolidate power in the papacy. But those efforts fizzled, badly, which is one of the reasons the papal schism occurred in the first place. A useful rule of thumb is that the institutional church usually associated vernacular bibles with outbreaks of heresy. If there was a heretical movement in an area that, uh, concerned the Church, then they would crack down on vernacular translations. During the period I just named, Innocent III (early 13th century) and his immediate successors had a few heretical movements to address - but in my view that shows the need for moderation when it comes to making this particular point about the printing press: that it exacerbates existing divisions in society rather than creates them.

That's not actually at odds with what you're saying overall, so again - my objection here is with the bright line that your social history is drawing and not with the existence of any line. It's just murky. Everything is always murky.

Anyhow, those heretical movements (Cathars in 13th century France-ish, Lollards in 14th and 15th century England, and Hussites in 15th century Bohemia) did invite persecutorial church attention (oh shit, read R.I. Moore's "Formation of a Persecuting Society" if you're interested in a big, aggressive argument about how this process leads to the development of the idea of European-ness) and that attention did indeed focus to some degree on vernacular translations of scripture, but I think there are two key points to make about that:

1) Where there was no heretical movement to prosecute, the Church generally appreciated skilled, authorized translations of the bible. So in the non-Cathar areas of France, people (rich people, and very few of them, to be sure) had access to the bible in French. Ditto Germany prior to the Lutherans. And Bohemia prior to Huss. And England prior to Wycliffe and the Lollards. I'm not here to treat the church of the late middle ages as this benevolent, liberal force. But an important thing to keep in mind was that the church definitely believed that there's a lot of value in standardized, authorized translations of the bible as educational tools to *prevent* heresy. There's been a longstanding truism in Church history that people definitely believed back in the middle ages that heresy usually came from the frontiers rather than the cities. That's absolutely not true (hell, the arch-heretic Marcion himself didn't get any traction until he literally came to ROME, which is the exact opposite of the frontiers) but the perception was widespread and had a certain intuitive sense to it: if you don't teach people what to believe, they'll make it up themselves; and the areas where the church was most clearly failing to teach people was at the borders of Christendom.

2) This process of the bubbling up and growth then spread then acceptance of dissent against the Church is incredibly fluid and that fluidity runs from well before the invention of the printing press through that period. Wycliffe used a vernacular bible in England sixty years before Gutenberg to support and spread a series of arguments against the Church. His own writing was both in Latin and in (middle) English. Jan Hus used a vernacular bible in Bohemia thirty years before Gutenberg to support and spread a series of arguments against the Church. He also read Wycliffe's latin work (I don't think Hus read English, but I do know there were a few English figures thoroughly involved in the Bohemian Reformation, like Peter Payne on the proto-Protestant side and Henry Beaufort on the proto-Catholic side so I guess it's possible) and engaged and assimilated his arguments into his own work. Martin Luther read Hus, and therefore Wycliffe by proxy, certainly because of the printing press though given the spread of 15th century Bohemian reformation into Germany it's possible he wouldn't have actually needed it. And then Luther used a vernacular bible to support and spread a series of arguments against the Church alongside these prior reformers.

But again, the reason why I didn't want to argue is that your central point about the printing press has merit and so, if you want, you're free to regard this stuff as extraneous details. I mean, I don't think they're extraneous at all, but this is a post about gun violence and you're making a broad analogy about communication technology so you'd be absolutely justified in saying that.

And Luther is a great point to stick that on because Wycliffe's movement fizzled out once he lost the political support that welded his theological positions onto nascent English nationalism positioned against Rome. Though the way I usually teach Wycliffe is that he "won" in a rather odd sense of being identified as a heretic by the church and still dying naturally in his own bed rather than being set on fire. That's a big W in the late 14th century. And Hus' movement only partly succeeded (the church of the moravian brethren and Czechslovak Hussite Church did actually survive the 15th century and should be understood as Protestant traditions that pre-date Luther) for pretty much the same reason. Its only traction was when it was paired with pro-Bohemian/anti-Rome nationalistic sentiment and when that sentiment was smashed (and sold out, in the case of the Taborites) then the movement itself died out.

But Luther succeeded! And the printing press is a huge reason why. I'll clarify here that, in my view (and Ozment's, which is why I recommended that short little prize of a book. if you only read one, read that one) the actual most important contribution of the printing press in terms of turning a carefully detailed, high-minded academic dispute over soteriology and the existence of inherent righteousness into a mass movement against the roman catholic church wasn't vernacular bibles but rather the *insanely* crude and aggressive woodcuts and propaganda that exploded out of Germany in favor of Luther. Never discount the political id. People might say they want to read the bible and understand its subtle gestures at God's grace, but if you want to move people then a woodcut of a giant, satanic vulture pooping out monks works a lot better to get people fired up:

https://pages.uoregon.edu/dluebke/Reformations441/DeOrtuetOrigineMonachorum.jpg

So yeah, look. This is an incredibly rich period that I think you've sort of caricatured in your post. That's not any great sin, as its unreasonable to expect you to write thousands of words about the 16th century to make an argument about gun violence. All this is completely ancillary, and a lot of it can definitely be understood as supporting your point. So it didn't seem worth arguing about. If somebody expresses the slightest interest in this period, my instinct is to recommend some books because that's what people who cared about this stuff did for me.

______________________________

"Walleye, a lot of things are going to go wrong in your life that technically aren't your fault. Always remember that this doesn't make you any less of an idiot"

--Walleye's Dad

  

Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

                                
fif
Member since Feb 23rd 2004
1998 posts
Fri Apr-14-23 08:20 PM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
82. "thanks for the reply"
In response to Reply # 80


          



>Mostly because I think your actual point regarding the role
>of the printing press is completely apt in general. It's one
>of my favorite ways to make a point - that leaps forward in
>communication technology are one of the best, most thorough
>ways to connect social, material, and intellectual history.

yes, the stone age baby is born to the 21st century mother. humans distinct from other beasts cuz of the malleability of our minds. that malleability is largely driven by language, and information encoded in stable storage systems…like books, internet. so the printing press and the internet both signal epoch changes because they allow a massive scaling of mind-shaping connections between people. people long dead, people here and now, global connectome on strong rn. but pay attention to what, how, when? tough questions these days faced with “more of more than ever before, too much more for your mind to absorb”. great opportunity to know better, great risk of confusion.

---

i appreciate the effort you took to explain the nuances of the Reformation re: bible translations and so on. yes, my off-handed sentence failed to capture much of that picture. it is interesting that vernacular translations were associated with unrest.

Gutenberg himself was not a monk but his famous bibles were the Vulgate editions approved of by The Church at the time. So, I think my main point in that sentence stands: tinkering monks and such improved the technology of printing to the point where one man (Gutenberg) could come in, and with a few material innovations to the tech, blast its productive capacity to the moon. And Gutenberg himself would have been aghast to learn that his invention ultimately spawned vast numbers of books full of ideas in conflict with Church doctrine.

but i agree, we seem interested in different things in this post. i learned some though, so thanks. i brought up the Reformation quickly as an example of the big changes enabled by Gutenberg’s invention. but the subsequent role it played in the Enlightenment/scientific revolution is of more interest to me. religion and science and politics and engineering are all woven together, not easy to separate them historically. but the mechanized world of today was made possible by scientific advance and this advance was made possible in important ways by the proliferation of books of all sorts. technology has replaced many former forms of life and now, with the internet (etc), it seems to have brought us to a place of babel, the beginning of something new. and these growing pains as we learn how to interact with it, and with each other through it, can get ugly. social disintegration of various sorts, atomized individuals who now have access to worlds of information…so yes, i think, a recipe that has given rise to mass shooters. the background environment of america, where guns seem to grow on trees, greases the individual’s movement from fantasy to action. they’ve got the ennui, the alienated aloneness, and the solution is not hard to cop.

if we accept that we are in a time of mental foment that has at least some in common with the time immediately after the invention of the printing press, are you able to draw any useful parallels or distinctions between the two periods?

it's interesting that rise of the computer world has coincided in america with huge declines in religious participation.

the printing press was probably necessary for humanity advancing into this mechanized age. but it’s influence also resulted in a lot of bloodshed and upheavals along all sorts of lines. do you see something similar occurring now? are there any lessons we can learn from the earlier period? we are in such early days of this new tech, what sort of status quos will we settle into? what forms of conflict?

thanks for the recommendations, i will look into the Ozment book.

was a good point about Luther’s movement being driven by the rude woodcuts, etc. half-joking, but how about this analogy for the deciding factor of american elections:

pwning someone with a tweet/soundbite is to those woodcuts
as having a well-thought out policy is to the bible

  

Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

                        
fif
Member since Feb 23rd 2004
1998 posts
Thu Apr-13-23 07:12 AM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
76. "I reread your post"
In response to Reply # 73


          

And was definitely off in my tone. Maybe you we were less evading, more motioning to table. Been some long days lately. I apologize. But I do think find some of this approach from you disappointing. You claim to know a lot but share little and come in Pooh poohing while failing to address the central claim that the printing press was incredibly important. You seem to disagree there and I want to know why. Read Ben franklin's autobiography and try to tell me the printing press was not important driving force of history.

Gutenberg wasn't a Catholic monk. But catholic monks were important to the thrumming along of block type technological progress. Reference was in Neil postman's book "technopoly". Gutenberg is acknowledged inventor yes so I was loose there but monk were maybe ibm doing computers and then Microsoft comes around in form of Gutenberg's world-transforming mechanical innovations

  

Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

        
PROMO
Charter member
30966 posts
Wed Apr-12-23 10:21 AM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy listClick to send message via AOL IM
63. "i think fif is right...and the missing part for the rest is the guns."
In response to Reply # 60


  

          

america is flush with them, the rest of the world isn't.

so yeah, they got the same issues w/ tech making us less connected, they just don't have the guns.

  

Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

thegodcam
Member since Oct 22nd 2004
41497 posts
Wed Apr-12-23 01:08 AM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy listClick to send message via AOL IM
59. "it's the guns. what are the stats in countries without a 2nd amendment?"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

it's also a known fact that in profession where employees carry guns, the suicide by gun proportion is higher than in the general population... obviously folks in law enforcement face more stress than a lot of ppl but it's the access to guns that also "triggers" more cops committing suicides than say firemen or EMT's

*******************************************************
i will not let finite disappointment undermine infinite hope
- Cory Booker

Football is a simple game; 22 men chase a ball for 90 minutes, and at the end the Germans always win
- Gary Lineker

  

Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

Damali
Member since Sep 12th 2002
35865 posts
Wed Apr-12-23 05:06 PM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
65. "*peeps to see if anyone is facing the hard truth yet* Nope. *leaves*"
In response to Reply # 0


          

d

"i do more for both our communities than you'll ever know." - Heinz
"But rest assured, in my luxurious house built on the backs of people darker than me, I am sipping fine scotch and scoffing at how stupid you are." - bshelly

  

Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

    
seasoned vet
Member since Jul 29th 2008
6025 posts
Wed Apr-12-23 06:03 PM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
66. "STFU"
In response to Reply # 65


  

          

  

Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

    
ThaTruth
Charter member
99998 posts
Wed Apr-12-23 07:15 PM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
67. "So since Nashville “identified as a man” we’re chalking that up to..."
In response to Reply # 65


          

“TOXIC MASCULINITY”?

________________________________________
"Take the surprise out your voice Shaq."-The REAL CP3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2H5K-BUMS0

  

Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

    
Mynoriti
Charter member
38818 posts
Wed Apr-12-23 09:31 PM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
70. "IT'S ONLY THE THING I SAID IT IS"
In response to Reply # 65


  

          

Lol

  

Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

    
legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
79594 posts
Thu Apr-13-23 07:28 AM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
78. "the fuck are you yapping about now? "
In response to Reply # 65


          

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

    
Amritsar
Member since Jan 18th 2008
32093 posts
Thu Apr-13-23 07:34 AM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
79. "Please enlighten us "
In response to Reply # 65


  

          

Help us get on your level

  

Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

        
ThaTruth
Charter member
99998 posts
Thu Apr-13-23 08:55 AM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
81. "she stated her opinion in post #23"
In response to Reply # 79


          

________________________________________
"Take the surprise out your voice Shaq."-The REAL CP3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2H5K-BUMS0

  

Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

Tiger Woods
Member since Feb 15th 2004
18386 posts
Wed Apr-12-23 07:41 PM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
68. "Guns, parenting, internet, mental illness. toxic cocktail of all, not on..."
In response to Reply # 0
Wed Apr-12-23 07:41 PM by Tiger Woods

  

          

.

  

Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

Lobby General Discussion topic #13461409 Previous topic | Next topic
Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.25
Copyright © DCScripts.com