this is an excerpt from Roxane Gay's oped. this idea of thin vs. thick skin and "taking a joke" is worth discussing, in general.

i'm actual bored of talking about the slap..but this? let's go

"This is not a defense of Will Smith, who does not need me to defend him.

Instead, this is a defense of thin skin. It is a defense of boundaries and being human and enforcing one’s limits. It is a repudiation of the incessant valorizing of taking a joke, having a sense of humor. It is a rejection of the expectation that we laugh off everything people want to say and do to us.

I think a lot about how we are constantly asked to make our skin ever thicker. Toughen yourself, we’re told, whoever we are, whatever we’ve been through or are going through. Stop being so brittle and sensitive. Lighten up.

I’m not talking about constructive criticism or accountability but, rather, the intense scrutiny and unnecessary commentary people have to deal with when they challenge others’ expectations one way or another.

Who is served by all this thick skin? Those who want to behave with impunity. If the targets of derision only had thicker skin, their aggressors could say or do as they please. If we all had the thickest of skins, no one would have to take responsibility for cruelties, big or small. It’s an alluring idea to some, I suppose.

Thick skin comes up often in the context of comedy. Done well, comedy can offer witty, biting observations about human frailties. It can force us to look in the mirror and get honest with ourselves, to laugh and move forward. Done less well, it leaves its targets feeling raw, exposed and wounded — not mortally, but wounded.

It should go without saying that comedians are free to say what they please. Long live creative license and free speech. But it should be obvious that the targets of jokes and insults have every right to react and respond. There is a strange idea that there is nobility in tolerating or, better yet, enjoying humor that attacks who you are, what you do or how you look — that with free speech comes the obligation to turn the other cheek, rise above, laugh it all off. We often see this when comedians want to joke about race, sexual assault, gender violence or other issues that people experiencing them don’t find terribly funny. If you can’t laugh along, you are humorless. You’re thin-skinned. You’re a problem.

I’ve stopped aspiring to be thicker-skinned, and I no longer expect or admire it in others. Because sometimes, people can’t take a joke. In some situations, yes, we’re humorless. If our skin gets too thick, we won’t feel anything at all, which is the most unreasonable of expectations. And we won’t know we’ve been wronged or wounded until it’s too late."

d

I don't speak to provoke. I speak because I think our time is short and each moment that we are not our truest selves, and we say what we do not mean because we imagine that is what somebody wants us to say, is wasting our time on this Earth - C. Adichie

And are self-righteous about it.


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

I don't speak to provoke. I speak because I think our time is short and each moment that we are not our truest selves, and we say what we do not mean because we imagine that is what somebody wants us to say, is wasting our time on this Earth - C. Adichie

I agree with it. I don't think somehow jokes are magical and are above the rules of treating people decently. If I make a joke at someone's expense, I better hope they laugh and if they don't that's on me.

I think the piece would be better served if she acknowledge her own part or everyone's part in it.

It comes off extremely hypocritical to talk about Black Women having to endure the target of ridicule specifically for their hair when she was doing the exact same thing less then a month ago. I think her point would have been stronger if she acknowledge that she is guilty of it as well.

I know I am not above it. I can acknowledge that I have extremely thin skin and it causes me to go on the offense when I would be better serve if I just chill. I always regret my dumb back and forth with people here. It's a waste of everyone's time and some people's time is more precious than others. If know one is learning from it, why do it.

But hypocrisy drives me wild. Like you sharing this piece when you went out your way to call me folks names for being sensitive about harassment. That's not giving what you get. That's going out your way to start shit.

But again, I am sensitive and have a great memory.





>
>I don't speak to provoke. I speak because I think our time is
>short and each moment that we are not our truest selves, and
>we say what we do not mean because we imagine that is what
>somebody wants us to say, is wasting our time on this Earth -
>C. Adichie


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

https://twitter.com/rgay/status/1507046295659233284

She's mocking a black woman's hair on a public platform.

Should Keisha Russell or her husband find roxanne and slap her for this?

"They used to call me Baby Luke....but now? The whole damn 2 Liiiive Crew."

I don't speak to provoke. I speak because I think our time is short and each moment that we are not our truest selves, and we say what we do not mean because we imagine that is what somebody wants us to say, is wasting our time on this Earth - C. Adichie

"They used to call me Baby Luke....but now? The whole damn 2 Liiiive Crew."

I don't speak to provoke. I speak because I think our time is short and each moment that we are not our truest selves, and we say what we do not mean because we imagine that is what somebody wants us to say, is wasting our time on this Earth - C. Adichie

Thin skin or sensitivity seems like a person will be led by emotions but...no one wants to be emotionally numb (or worse)


Thick skin seems like a person can stay "in control" yet a person might not "respond" to things that should be responded to (in the correct way).


Just seems like being human is complex because no "extreme" (thin or thick skin/too sensitive or too indifferent/non-chalant) is good.

But...

humans just are rarely in the best zone to not err too far in one direction or the other.

>Thin skin or sensitivity seems like a person will be led by
>emotions but...no one wants to be emotionally numb (or worse)

i think we're all led by emotions all the time anyway...whether we realize it or not.

>Thick skin seems like a person can stay "in control" yet a
>person might not "respond" to things that should be responded
>to (in the correct way).

i like that you put those in quotations cuz it kinda signals that you know that's not really how it works. and what is the "correct" way? how are we ever to know for sure what that is, cuz correct for who? you or others?

at what point does my need to retain my own dignity and self-worth trump others' need for me to be polite?


>Just seems like being human is complex because no "extreme"
>(thin or thick skin/too sensitive or too
>indifferent/non-chalant) is good.

absolutely this! its very complex and situational and subjective etc etc

d
>
>But...
>
>humans just are rarely in the best zone to not err too far in
>one direction or the other.


I don't speak to provoke. I speak because I think our time is short and each moment that we are not our truest selves, and we say what we do not mean because we imagine that is what somebody wants us to say, is wasting our time on this Earth - C. Adichie

With clear applicability in some contexts (“think for yourself” for example), and project that it’s coming from an actually bad place (“this expression itself, in any context at all, is telling people to take on too much, to make decisions their ill informed about, like getting a reverse mortgage. it’s empowering exploitation by capitalists basically”), that’s potentially a you problem, I would say to Mrs gay.

Seems on brand for a kind of pessimistic leftism rampant on social media tho.

In the context of a person dealing with verbal abuse, “grow a thick skin” is indeed bad advice. But imo, most people don’t use the term in this kind of context.

On the other hand, when someone slaps a comedian over a joke, it’s apt.
It’s not that complicated.

--

Woe unto him who in this world courts not dishonor.

.

--

Woe unto him who in this world courts not dishonor.

I realize you can’t indict a phrase like this for the most part, only it’s context. But Gay wants to indict the phrase itself, in a context where everybody just saw it appropriately used.

--

Woe unto him who in this world courts not dishonor.

>I realize you can’t indict a phrase like this for the most
>part, only it’s context.

but of course...language is malleable and subjective, so context almost always matters

But Gay wants to indict the phrase
>itself, in a context where everybody just saw it appropriately
>used.

again, i'm not sure why you have such a hard-on for judging her, but it adds literally nothing to any points or argument you are making.

d

I don't speak to provoke. I speak because I think our time is short and each moment that we are not our truest selves, and we say what we do not mean because we imagine that is what somebody wants us to say, is wasting our time on this Earth - C. Adichie

>again, i'm not sure why you have such a hard-on for judging
>her, but it adds literally nothing to any points or argument
>you are making.

Huh? I am judging her by characterizing her argument as “indicting a phrase”, but you aren’t judging me by calling my take “having a hard on”?


If she had a hard on for something, presumably I could call that out or no?

Well in my tradition, we call people out for indicting phrases instead, but that’s considered an argument not a judgment, you see.

--

Woe unto him who in this world courts not dishonor.

Wish it was thicker tho in the most healthy way!

--

Woe unto him who in this world courts not dishonor.

I don't speak to provoke. I speak because I think our time is short and each moment that we are not our truest selves, and we say what we do not mean because we imagine that is what somebody wants us to say, is wasting our time on this Earth - C. Adichie

>With clear applicability in some contexts (“think for
>yourself” for example), and project that it’s coming from
>an actually bad place (“this expression itself, in any
>context at all, is telling people to take on too much, to make
>decisions their ill informed about, like getting a reverse
>mortgage. it’s empowering exploitation by capitalists
>basically”), that’s potentially a you problem, I would say
>to Mrs gay.

i've read this a few times and still don't get what you're saying here...which, yes, I understand is a me problem lol

>Seems on brand for a kind of pessimistic leftism rampant on
>social media tho.

this type of judgement is irrelevant to the convo.

>In the context of a person dealing with verbal abuse, “grow
>a thick skin” is indeed bad advice. But imo, most people
>don’t use the term in this kind of context.

actually, its more common that you realize. its the classic thing that abusers say to gaslight their victims and its very very effective. Alot of parents even say it to their children. Alot of kids hear it when they're being bullied at school... I've experienced it from various people for most of my life.

d


I don't speak to provoke. I speak because I think our time is short and each moment that we are not our truest selves, and we say what we do not mean because we imagine that is what somebody wants us to say, is wasting our time on this Earth - C. Adichie

It's not a binary idea
Thin skin, thick skin, and the infinite levels in between
There are also infinite options for responding to a joke at your expense
For an adult, none of which should be violence

I don't see what being sensitive has to do with what happened

An adult should have the ability to respond to words without being violent.

---------------------------------------------------------------

If you can't understand it without an explanation

you can't understand it with an explanation

I don't speak to provoke. I speak because I think our time is short and each moment that we are not our truest selves, and we say what we do not mean because we imagine that is what somebody wants us to say, is wasting our time on this Earth - C. Adichie

"They used to call me Baby Luke....but now? The whole damn 2 Liiiive Crew."

I don't speak to provoke. I speak because I think our time is short and each moment that we are not our truest selves, and we say what we do not mean because we imagine that is what somebody wants us to say, is wasting our time on this Earth - C. Adichie

You're purposely burying the lede and asking us to discuss something with the context taken out.

"They used to call me Baby Luke....but now? The whole damn 2 Liiiive Crew."

>An adult should have the ability to respond to words without
>being violent.

I mostly hear "words should never induce violence" from white people. I don't know why the concept of watching what you say to white folk is so foreign to them. This is why you see white people getting punched out on camera for saying racial slurs. But I digress...

Niggas was making "jokes" for likes and retweets all day. Nobody spoke up on their behalf and said, "maybe we the ones that's going too far?" You never been in a situation where you was roasting one of your friends and you could see them getting mad at the shit? And you don't understand what being sensitive has to do with what happened?

You don't get to tell me how to react in certain situations. You don't know what I've been through or what I've experienced to react how I did. It's unrealistic to expect people to respond to shit in the same way. I WISH Will could have handled it differently. But I'm not gonna TELL him he should have handled it differently. The funny shit is most of the people that are clutching their pearls most likely participated in making "jokes" at Will's expense.

As a comedian, feel free to say what you want to say on stage. Just know there's always that off chance you'll push somebody too far.


.

I expect you to have the ability to respond without violence.

Whatever your issues are
Whatever you've been through
I would expect by the stage of adulthood that you are addressing those items
and working through them in your personal time and space

Violent responses to words are for children.

---------------------------------------------------------------

If you can't understand it without an explanation

you can't understand it with an explanation

I don't know where on the internet you live, but that's not realistic in the real world. But hey man have blast.

>Violent responses to words are for children.

Yeah until they're for adults too. You wanna know what else is for children? Incessantly teasing somebody and then running to the teacher to coddle you once you have to deal with the consequences of talking reckless.

How about watch what you say out of your mouth? I really don't understand why this is a foreign concept for people.

Will was wrong because its an event where jokes happen.

But I totally understand how people get smacked for talking slick about someone’s wife or just for talking slick.

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

I wish it didn't go down like that but people are people.

Not to beat a dead horse, but if Pete punched Kanye at Sunday Service after those text messages I wonder if niggas would still be on that violence is not the answer shit

High Roads

boy preaching ha

i dont think emotional pain and physical pain are as mutually exclusive as a lot of the “its just words” folks suggest.

will fucked up but to pivot from that specific context to act like “fighting words” isnt a thing and dismiss a physical reaction to words in every situation? especially when the speaker KNOWS certain shit gonna cause a specific reaction out of you.

Adults are human and they can lose control.

---------------------------
Signature

I warned him and when I turned to walk away he thought I was out of ear shot and doubled down.

Was I wrong? Absolutely

but I warned him and I guess he thought I was bluffing.

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

I would've done the same.

---------------------------
Signature

If you were at the company picnic of her or your job, absolutely.

If you were out at a bar and you felt good about your odds in a fight or not going to jail, yeah that's different.


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

definitely influences my behavior

Yes I SHOULD be able to say just about anything without fear of physical action, the same way I should be able to walk down the street counting a giant wad of money or that I should be able to leave the door to my house open without worrying about something happening to me, but that's not the case.

I don't think that joke from Chris warranted fisticuffs given the circumstances, but the idea that I can just say any and everything and I get to choose the consequences of doing that isn't correct.

R.I.P. Loud But Wrong Guy
Dec 29th 2009 - Dec 17th 2017

Stephen Miller
Ben Shapiro
Ted Cruz
Josh Hawley,

Whether they got punched in the face too many times or not enough times in high school to come out their mouths with the type of shit they say.




**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

But I think it's also just being able to be white in this country and having the police giving you the benefit of the doubt.

I remember Peter Rosenberg from Hot97 was talking about almost getting into a fight with Cipha Sounds.

He was talking about how they got into an argument about something and he was just saying mean shit to say mean shit to him because that's what he grew up doing in arguments. Cipha told him to meet him in the parking lot after work. Of course he didn't want to fight, but Cipha was 100% ready to go.

Up until that point, Rosenberg didn't even know words could get you fucked up. I'm just like how the fuck would you not know that?

at the end of the day instead of handling their own

<--- Big Baller World Order

She made a far more rude joke in their face.

https://youtu.be/tGdtAhcKra4

Personally, I wouldn't condone that, but yknow....you cant tell people how to react to disrespect :/

Very unserious argument.

"They used to call me Baby Luke....but now? The whole damn 2 Liiiive Crew."

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

Y'all in here doing all these backflips to ignore the fact that people have limits.

It's funny how powerful words are until they ain't.

"They used to call me Baby Luke....but now? The whole damn 2 Liiiive Crew."

thought as much

kinda confirms how unserious the initial argument is.

"They used to call me Baby Luke....but now? The whole damn 2 Liiiive Crew."

what point are you tryna make here?

and our response to this particular slap is ethically inconsistent.

"They used to call me Baby Luke....but now? The whole damn 2 Liiiive Crew."

In order to do something impulsive implies a lot of outside shit happened before somebody made that decision. we've seen people on this board have meltdowns for way less shit than what Will's been going through the few years or so.

It don't matter who was on that stage. Ricky Gervais, Regina Hall, Mike Tyson, Laverne Cox, or whoever else the socials decide to name. What he did was fucked up and it was weak as shit.

But I'm not gonna sit here and act like he supposed to sit there and take every August Alsina joke from the whole world either.

Like I told my 80 something year old Grandmother when she was talking wreckless to people in traffic, there isn't a magic force field around you just because you're an old lady, you can still get touched up.

R.I.P. Loud But Wrong Guy
Dec 29th 2009 - Dec 17th 2017

wanting to operate with impunity. It's always "violence is never the answer", and in the case that they initiate violence, it's "two wrongs don't make a right." It always comes back to them being above being physically harmed. Just wanted to insert that here.


>I mostly hear "words should never induce violence" from white
>people. I don't know why the concept of watching what you say
>to white folk is so foreign to them.

~
~
~
~
~
Days like this I miss Sha Mecca

I saw a clip that was interesting.

Pointing out how America isn’t used to seeing a Black woman protected by a Black man.. he which is why they are so shocked.

She then listed off Emmit Teal, Rosewood and a few other examples of white men using violence to defend white women.

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

Like have a show that puts all your family business out there. Especially with a spouse who is insecure but playing it off like he has it all figured out. Will is a private person and prefers to put his business out the way Beyonce would put hers out; in a controlled environment.

We just watched a man have a meltdown on stage yet people still trying to make it fit their own agenda. Those who tend not to like edgy comedians **ahem....Chappelle** or don't like comedians considered mean spirited are more sympathetic towards Will and Jada. And then you got the feminists trying to start gender warz as if Chris has disdain for Black women.

Thin skinned people don't have a show where they:

- confess to sleeping with their son's friend

- complain how their celebrity spouse does not satisfy them

- showcase their spouse's insecurities over a dude who has been dead over 20 years.

The show isn't about therapy. Real therapy is done in private; something you would think 'thin skinned' people would gravitate to.

Will started off as a rapper. He can take verbal jabs and mean spirited insults. But one thing rappers pride themselves on over almost anything else is respect. Respect in the streets. Respect as a rapper. Respect from peers....and so on. Rappers have ego. And to go from the first rapper to ever win a Grammy to now a superstar winning an Oscar? Dude got ego. But we also seen the sacrifices he made to get there. His image was clean (...starting off as a 'clean' rapper couldn't have hurt either) and lacked controversy.

Prior to the Oscars, these past few years have been the most controversial for Will and his image and respect was being tarnished. We have seen the memes, heard the jokes, and read the think pieces. He was getting clowned way more than when he started off as a 'clean' rapper.

Imo, Will's meltdown wasn't about Jada's honor. It was about him reclaiming masculinity and the respect he felt he lost.
Well, maybe 5% was Jada's honor (it was definitely egged on by her), but the other 95% was about personal issues he had pent-up inside of him. Seeing Will that night reminded me of seeing someone go berserk after accidentally (or purposely) getting cut off while driving or getting accidentally bumped into; they cuss and threaten to fight but you don't fret because you see there are, obvious, other major mental issues going on so you keep it pushing. That is what we saw that night and why Chris isn't really gunning for Will. I'm sure Chris is upset that he was let loose on, but he is also still processing because he understands there are a million other things going on with Will.

I am still a big fan of both Will and Jada and hope they receive the healing they need in their relationship so this, or anything like it, doesn't happen again.

"We just watched a man have a meltdown on stage yet people still trying to make it fit their own agenda."


People are really doing the most with this event.

Also Gay is a fucking hack.
Literally everything of hers I've read is at best half of an idea

If I were in your shoes LOL

she talks about the consequence of everyone having thickest of skin (no one would have to take responsibility for their cruelty).

But what if everyone had the thinnest of skin? No one would be able to say anything at all. I might be hurt because you say you love cheddar biscuits whereas I have a gluten allergy.

There's a balance to be found, and it's very difficult to say where that balance is. The fact is that different people will have different levels of skin-thickness just like everything else with individuals.

For me, it just boils down to deciding to always try our best to be respectful.... or taking the chance for a laugh, being the bully who knows the subject can't harm you or hoping they won't.
It's about what kind of person you want to be.

~
~
~
~
~
Days like this I miss Sha Mecca

is a great skill and aspiration.

But most of the conversation around this is really about excusing various levels of abuse.

The original joke was a cheap dig on appearance. There's nothing constructive from that. The joke was meant to get a cheap laugh and because the Smith's have so much clout, the writer's thought the Smith's would just grin and bear it to save face on TV.

The miscalculation was having it come from Chris Rock, who at least exceeds Jada'a star power and approaches Will's. Now it looks like Chris is punching down on Jada so Will punched (slapped) down on him. Idon't agree with the slap (that should've been a private confrontation) but I understand it.

I think we over-estimate how thick-skinned most of these celebrities really are. It's relatively easy for them to ignore what we have to say because we're so small in comparison to them... we're like ants to most of them. But when another celebrity insults them, it's not as easy to shrug off so they're just as petty as any of us.

<-><-><-><-><-><-><-><-><->
<-><-><-><-><-><-><-><-><->