Who do you want to run on the Dem side? Biden? Harris? Bernie? One of the other retread candidates?
Who is gonna run on the Republican side. Is Trump going to give it another go (it seems like he's serious about running again)? DeSantis, some young buck (Tom Cotton, Josh Hawley)?
Recent polls show Trump would win right today over Biden (47-41) and Harris (49-38).
1. "i dont know how 2024 goes well" In response to Reply # 0
doesnt seem like biden running again would be good. how does he step down without harris being the nominee? doesn't seem like she would do well. maybe things can change by then but i dont see how.
of the ones that ran in 2020 i would prefer pete. everyone else doesn't interest me or is too old. i dont even know where to begin for people that didnt run in 2020.
im guessing if he can, trump will run. i hope whatever happens on that side its a mess.
i really wish there was a realistic way we could get a third option in 2024.
Biden sounds lost half the time and Harris won’t stop laughing.
I hope they pass the baton to someone who can answer a serious question with a serious answer.
**************** TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*
6. "yeah.. the fucked up part is the left kinda started this" In response to Reply # 5
this whole biden's is senile/cognitive decline thing. i jumped in to the primary debates late but the talk was all about he was a confused old fart, so by the time i watched for myself he seemed fine.
now the fox kinda took over the narrative, extending to guys like rogan and russel brand.. that he's this senile old man who can barely find his shoes.
but when you actually hear him speak outside of cherrypicked clips he seems fine. he's definitely slowed down a beat but it's nothing like people are describing.
Kamala, same deal. She IS pretty bad on the fly, but nothing close to the caricature of her.
All that said, people's perceptions are all that matter.
i worry more about inflation and gas prices being a problem for them than anything else.
7. "slowed down a beat? lol okayyyy" In response to Reply # 6
>this whole biden's is senile/cognitive decline thing. >i jumped in to the primary debates late but the talk was all >about he was a confused old fart, so by the time i watched for >myself he seemed fine. > >now the fox kinda took over the narrative, extending to guys >like rogan and russel brand.. that he's this senile old man >who can barely find his shoes. > >but when you actually hear him speak outside of cherrypicked >clips he seems fine. he's definitely slowed down a beat but >it's nothing like people are describing. > >Kamala, same deal. She IS pretty bad on the fly, but nothing >close to the caricature of her. > >All that said, people's perceptions are all that matter. > >i worry more about inflation and gas prices being a problem >for them than anything else. > >
he's stuttered his whole life, he's always had gaffes
but this idea that he's bordering on senile, or some confused old man is only from people who watch selected 30 second clips of him, or people who want to believe that.
>he's stuttered his whole life, he's always had gaffes > >but this idea that he's bordering on senile, or some confused >old man is only from people who watch selected 30 second clips >of him, or people who want to believe that.
We all know that. But dude will be in his 80's next election cycle
10. "He's far too old to be president. It's plainly obvious." In response to Reply # 6
I acknowledge that he hasn't set the barn on fire yet, and that's great. I'm very happy about that. But he is past general retirement age for an executive.
It's not that he doesn't make sense at all. It's that his cognitive abilities either are currently deteriorating fast and/or they're going to fall off a cliff soon. That's not something you want with POTUS. And that happened with Reagan, but luckily it was in his very last days in office.
I hate that we still have the menace of Trump, which I think is the only reason people are even suggesting that Biden run again. With no Trump on the scene we would be having a more serious discussion about this and Joe Biden would not be seen a serious option for 2024, even as the incumbent.
13. "RE: He's far too old to be president. It's plainly obvious." In response to Reply # 10
Thank you
>I acknowledge that he hasn't set the barn on fire yet, and >that's great. I'm very happy about that. But he is past >general retirement age for an executive. > >It's not that he doesn't make sense at all. It's that his >cognitive abilities either are currently deteriorating fast >and/or they're going to fall off a cliff soon. That's not >something you want with POTUS. And that happened with Reagan, >but luckily it was in his very last days in office. > >I hate that we still have the menace of Trump, which I think >is the only reason people are even suggesting that Biden run >again. With no Trump on the scene we would be having a more >serious discussion about this and Joe Biden would not be seen >a serious option for 2024, even as the incumbent. > >
legsdiamond Member since May 05th 2011 79554 posts
Tue Mar-29-22 08:06 PM
9. "Every criticism of a Dem isn't a right wing lie" In response to Reply # 5
I didn't say he was pooping his pants. He's a terrible speaker. Don't give a fuck about the stuttering. Dude will trail off and just lose his focus or struggle to find a word.
His state of the union address.. awful. Timing was all fucked up.
Didn't say he was senile or pooping his pants. This is partially why he won. People thought he was 2 days from death due to Fox News.
But the nigga is terrible with the mic
**************** TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*
12. "you said he looks lost half the time lol...that said..." In response to Reply # 9 Tue Mar-29-22 08:24 PM by Mynoriti
this is a case where it really only matters what people think, and old senile biden is a popular narrative.
then there's Kamala who's even less electable
i think their only real hope is that substantive things like inflation turn around drastically, or Trump goes so far off the rails that he loses by default.
i don't really expect dems to hold his. they may *need* trump because they don't really have a pitch.
my wild guess is we wind up with someone like DiSantis
If there was ever a time for Dems to FINALLY grow a fucking backbone and really go in it was after the last election.
You will never have more ammo than that.
How they have fucked this up so spectacularly is nuts.
They got lucky with Obama in 08 or else Hilary would have gotten elected and obliterated in her first term.
THEY LET HE RUN AGAIN in 16 and we saw how that went.
Instead of admitting their mistakes there they doubled back to Biden and then Biden has gone full agenda politics ever since and has telegraphed every single decision he's made.
They have no dog in them as a party. They are fine skating by on empty platitudes and bullshit whataboutism.
It's maddening and I alsmot don't give a fuck if they lose and Trump is back in office because it'll be more on them than anything.
legsdiamond Member since May 05th 2011 79554 posts
Wed Mar-30-22 06:14 AM
16. "I said he sounds lost" In response to Reply # 12
and I don’t mean dementia or senile..
once off script dude isn’t crisp at all.
We all know he is prone to gaffes and stutters but he is 80+..
**************** TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*
19. "either the black woman is angry or she laughs too much lol..." In response to Reply # 4
>cant trust them polls yo > >But Biden or Harris running worries me. > >Biden sounds lost half the time and Harris won’t stop >laughing. > >I hope they pass the baton to someone who can answer a serious >question with a serious answer. > >
legsdiamond Member since May 05th 2011 79554 posts
Wed Mar-30-22 09:23 AM
21. "Its crazy how politics work huh? " In response to Reply # 19
politicians are always going to be too nice, too mean, too radical, too soft.. too something.
**************** TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*
18. "I wonder if Mark Penn has any ideas" In response to Reply # 0
His polling company is the one who gave us this dire warning. If the guy who gave us Hillary's 2008 campaign; popularized the strategy of micro-targeting; and latched onto Trump's 2020 big like a tick has some advice for Democrats, they should probably take it.
______________________________
"Walleye, a lot of things are going to go wrong in your life that technically aren't your fault. Always remember that this doesn't make you any less of an idiot"
28. "Is no one stepping up?" In response to Reply # 0
The environment is ripe for an upstart democrat to slide into the presidency. If Trump runs, a democrat has a decent chance to win despite all the negatives attached to the democrats right now.
And Biden/Harris are very unpopular. They could easily be taken down if either one ran.
legsdiamond Member since May 05th 2011 79554 posts
Fri Jul-08-22 10:07 AM
30. "heard Newsome is running ads in Florida already. " In response to Reply # 28
**************** TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*
(i assume youre talking about just winning florida during a presidential election).
i have no idea why people think desantis is some political juggernaut.
would he be favored to win fl? most likely yeah. i would hope the governor of a state would win his own state lol.
but to put everything in context...
he won his election for governor with just a 0.4% margin.
trump only won florida in 2020 by a shade over 3% (bush won florida by 5 in 2004).
desantis wouldnt turn out working class white/rural voters like trump has. he also doesnt have the same name id and crossover appeal as trump (trump has been a celebrity and also a fox news mainstay for a decade). trump was a reagan-type force in all those aspects and desantis is not. and desantis also has an actual record in fl to run against.
so a 3% margin would be his ceiling. he would most likely come in under that.
46. "oh you mean national election? definitely not then." In response to Reply # 45
(supreme court blowing up election law in the next term notwithstanding)
desantis wouldnt even beat trump in a primary. hard to see how he would outdo him in a general election.
and as well as trump ginned up his own base and appealed to wwc crossover voters in the rust belt, conservative hispanics, etc...he still got less of the popular vote share than mitt romney in *both* 2016 and 2020.
48. "Right. Especially if Trump decides to sit back and play king maker" In response to Reply # 45 Fri Jul-08-22 02:15 PM by Stadiq
>Might do Obama numbers if he faces Biden. > >Those suburbs that swung for Biden will happily swing back >towards DeSantis. And he ain't losing Trump's people. They've >been permanently MAGA'd. > >
A lot of 2020 energy was anti-Trump...if the GOP runs a friendlier face like dude in VA or Desantis its big trouble.
Maybe if there is an ugly GOP primary...but Trump should be all in on the GOP candidate to get a fucking pardon but he isn't very smart.
MAGA are all in on the fascism. The only way they sit out is if Trump tells them to. I don't think he's THAT dumb.
So the potential of an unpopular Dem candidate in his 80s who didn't even try to fight the fascists, deflated/discouraged dem voters, a probable recession, a moderate in the front MAGA in the back candidate on the other side...sprinkle in restricted voting access like what went down in WI today...? Plus a GOP house (at the very least) jamming things up?
Dems should be worried...not citing Desantis's margin two years ago before he even had a profile to sooth themselves.
But then again we are talking about people who cite popular vote numbers in LOST elections to convince themselves everything is going fine and the loss was a moral win.
Desantis, VA dude, Haley...any of these ghouls who can make the slightest bit if inroad in the burbs and still get Trump's blessing would spell trouble for Dems especially Biden.
Joe's only hope is if Trump runs again.
(All of this is assuming fair elections are actually run which I highly doubt at this point)
50. "I think you may have something against FDR lol" In response to Reply # 49
He's the model "Strong Democrat" that folks are clamoring for. I don't doubt what you're saying, but he died in office in 1945... I don't know why 1938 becomes the cautionary tale after all we've see since. You see how the Republicans twisted the game over the last 4+ decades so lets twist it back.
**Sig** -Blackthought is the dopest emcee alive -Uncle Sam and Santa Clause are good buddies. -Be selfless and the world will be a better place.
53. "lol nah im not an fdr hater." In response to Reply # 50 Fri Jul-08-22 04:49 PM by Reeq
but hes the liberal version of what abe lincoln is to republicans in terms of people cherrypicking aspects of them and ignoring (or not knowing) the entire historical context.
hes pointed to as the model democrat who ran on a progressive agenda that would be able to win back the (white) working class in todays political environment.
what people leave out is that he and a large contingent of white dems (or white people in general) were economically populist but openly racist/nativist (non-white folks and immigrants were excluded from many new deal programs). the 2 go hand in hand in keeping white working class voters to the left.
one of the most successful tactics of republicans (eg. the southern strategy) driving white people out of the democratic party was repubs turning whites against new deal policies by saying their tax money for those 'entitlements' were going to undeserving black, brown, and other poor people too (ie - welfare queens). they didnt run on economic populism obviously as they continue to successfully use racism to get white folks to vote against their own economic self interest.
in fact...fdr originally had universal healthcare as part of the new deal...but repubs (and many dems) sunk it by saying that it would provide healthcare to blacks too and lead to integrated hospitals where whites would be in beds next to blacks.
thats the reason for the whole 'socialist' attack by repubs. its basically a code word for 'helps out people other than whites'.
thats why when liberals talk about passing policies to benefit *all* americans and think thats a positive thing...a lot of white people hear 'policies that also benefit the people i hate or look down upon' and see it as a bad thing.
as far as the fdr supreme court midterm info...im just pointing out the past. nothing is completely predictable but history gives us a lot of clues about how things have played out (and could likely play out). we should learn from it lol.
66. "fdr won FOUR elections...I hardly call that a "failed plan" " In response to Reply # 49 Sat Feb-04-23 06:26 AM by nonaime
His move to pack the courts may have failed...but his ultimate goal to get the courts to stop messing with the new deal stuff didn't fail. Hmm...I wonder what type of pressure the court was feeling...hmmm...
>you wanna repeat a failed plan from 1937 with a less popular president and a dem party with worse geographical power distribution?
versus sitting around sending dems' version of "thoughts and prayers" hoping that the courts don't further pick apart civil rights protections? That seems like a worse plan to me.
~~~~~~~~ A bad Samaritan averaging above average men (c) DOOM
35. "hes running ads in florida telling people to move to ca." In response to Reply # 30 Fri Jul-08-22 12:04 PM by Reeq
seems kinda counterproductive to push left leaning voters to leave the state if youre planning on running there in a few years doesnt it?
its really just the type of troll job that repubs have embraced.
he won a blowout recall election shitting on the conservative governing (and its outcomes) in fl and tx.
hes up for re-election this fall.
why stop now?
also...signaling to your home state voters that you plan to leave in 2 years is a pretty bad campaign tactic if you are trying to win an election this year lol.
also...why run ads in one of the most expensive media markets in the nation before you run ads in the states the come earlier in the primary?
also...theres a ton of legal jeopardy in running prez campaign ads without actually filing as a candidate with the fec.
34. "a primary against an incumbent president assures a loss in the general." In response to Reply # 28
see: kennedy/carter
plus the challenger will almost always be from the left (just like kennedy) and is just as likely to lose (they dont represent the majority of the base nationally).
all it will do is further damage the incumbent and split the party.
once again...see: kennedy/carter
theres a reason parties dont do it anymore (and repubs fought tooth and nail to prevent one to trump in 2020).
and no gavin newsom isnt going to primary biden or even step over kamala (former senator from his state).
legsdiamond Member since May 05th 2011 79554 posts
Fri Jul-08-22 01:26 PM
42. "dude had no energy and I can’t lie.. I have no desire to hear anything..." In response to Reply # 40
he has to say right now.
**************** TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*
At this point the Biden admin, the consultants, current leadership need to step back or we go full fascist within 3 years.
You know how every terrible president is compared to Carter?
If we survive all this...Biden will absolutely takeover as the K I N G of failed Dem Presidents.
The admin is feeble...indecisive...slow...flip-floppy...and just not cut out for this. Like...at all.
How f*cking stupid do you have to be to sh!t on pro-choice activists right now?
I'm legit starting to think they are in on it. Just in it for the donations.
They just CANT be this incompetent. I know Biden is old AF....but he has people around him. How is this the vibe? Even if your ONLY GOAL was for Democrats to win...how is this the vibe??
Joe Biden and his admin are not cut out for this by any stretch. Not even cut out for exploiting something to win elections.
Again, there are very strong reasons that Biden's approval rating is trash.
54. "Dems need a middle aged white woman with a military background " In response to Reply # 0
Even more important, she needs to run uncontested in the primary. They need an allied front around one candidate that can bridge the gap, and to spend the next to years not arguing amongst themselves but united with a clear vision that can be communicated to convert fence sitters. They need to let the Republicans be the ones arguing amongst themselves looking foolish trying to out MAGA each other.
This won't happen but it's the only path I see that doesn't turn into a cluster fuck.
█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃ Big PEMFin H & z's "I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." � Miles
"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."
BrooklynWHAT Member since Jun 15th 2007 85056 posts
Sat Jul-09-22 11:11 AM
56. "they'd pick her apart. there is no good dem candidate bc they " In response to Reply # 54
have to be perfect
middle aged = "why not younger with fresh experience?" "why not older and more battle tested" white = "another white? ugh, next" woman = 40% of america is checking out off the rip military background = a gang of dem voters dont even fw the military as a concept
55. "Hate to say it, but I think DeathSantis will be the next US President " In response to Reply # 0
He took Trump’s blueprint and ran with it. Unlike Trump, he doesn’t have the legal baggage and he’s actually articulate and understands policy. He’s a supreme dick and purposely engages in divisive culture wars, but that only seems to bolster his popularity among the conservative/Republican base.
I mean, unless the Dems can find a solid candidate other than Biden, they’ve got a very slim chance right now. Biden has no hope of getting re-elected.
58. "Nothing positive changes for the black community either way." In response to Reply # 0
Presidential election by itself is pointless because Republicans essentially packed courts with their people. They can damn near legislate out of power, back to topic.
Jim Crow 3 Strikes Biden cannot pander his way to the black community saving him in the last few hours like last time.. Merrick Garland tried to get Derek Chauvin's sentence reduced allegedly as another reason to not vote for Biden. You collard green caucus fish fry loving democrats sit down.
Kamala depleted her pandering badges too. We aren't falling for dancing, hbcu pandering, symbolism bs, rap lyrics, minority coalition, and trickle down equality politics.
The other side is trash too but more honest about their plans but screw them too.
Either party can buy my vote like they buy everyone else's vote with tangible benefit specifically for their community. Actually court the black vote.
Vote locally by all means for sheriff, district attorney, mayor etc.
Let's see if the Latino community crime bill Biden told the black community to rally behind carries him to victory.
Let's see if the Asian community the Democrats provided tangible relief to carries him to victory.
Let's if white women carries Biden to victory.
Let's see if the LGBT community carries him to victory.
The jewish's community vote is powerful so let's see if they can push Biden to another term at the last minute.
No empathy for white misery (c) BDot
"root for everybody black haters say that's crazy, wow..."
62. "so for now it looks like 3 on the GOP side?" In response to Reply # 61
I was thinking it would just be DeSantis and Trump. I'm guessing we get at least a couple more jumping in but I don't think it will get as crazy as it was in 2016. One can only hope.
I feel way different now than I did a year ago lol If Biden stays healthy he has a good shot at winning again. It seems like right after the midterms a lot of the noise went away.
64. "Oh, that clown car is going to be very full" In response to Reply # 62
Especially if Trump is indeed looking weak. There are going to be lots of people who are going to try to convince themselves and their donors that they can appeal to Trump's base.
63. "I know I'm not voting blue" In response to Reply # 0
I've already established Joe/Kamala/Pete/Hillary or whoever dems put up don't have my vote. I got the receipts.
if Bernie runs independent....maaaaaaaaybe.
Def don't want to see Trump or DeSantos take office, but at least that'll get more liberals outraged and engaged again.
Dems and Republicans these days remind me of this line from Old Money in 'BKNY': "Bodega got that facelift, go inside, still the same shit.'
there are some differences for sure, but in the end, it's just two arms of a vengeful beast...as long as we're in this two party system all we get to pick is which arm we want to get beaten with.
stravinskian Member since Feb 24th 2003 12698 posts
Sat Feb-04-23 10:13 AM
68. "The Dem nominee will be Joe Biden or Kamala Harris." In response to Reply # 0
And if that person wins the general (which is more likely than not, despite people's mindless panic), the nominee in 2028 is Kamala Harris. Period.
I'm not entirely happy about that (I don't think Kamala has shown herself yet to be a very skilled retail politician, and everyone rightly agrees Joe is a shitty speaker, which might matter more in 24 than it did in 20), but primaries against incumbent administrations can only lead to yawns or catastrophes. There is no third option.
Also: Ron DeSantis is more beatable than Trump, not less.
Didn't watch for long but to see Joe say we have to take on Big Pharma and price gouging and to see Dems jump up and support and GOPers unmoved, kind of sends the message they are with Big Pharma no?
And then you have George Santos unashamed and out there gladhanding everyone instead of sitting it out....
Just bad looks.
********** "Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson
74. "That Huckabee Dog whistle rebuttal said it all" In response to Reply # 70
That was one of the worst actual rebuttals ever. Said nothing about the speech- just a bunch of dog whistles to incite MAGA emotional fears and tears because they knew they couldn’t rebut that speech. It was so blatant and disgusting.
--- "though time has passed, im still the future" (c) black thought
i didn't know about her health issues but she looked 53 way before that.
speech was pretty standard gop stuff (weak, woke, border, freedom, etc..), but it's rough to point the 'crazy' finger right after the WWE pit we just witnessed a few minutes before.
87. "I honestly had no clue he had any influence" In response to Reply # 85
on that level in 2023. I wrongfully assumed he was somewhat of a joke given the number of times he failed to get the Presidential nod the times he ran. I suppose that connection makes sense, plus I'm assuming her aligning herself with Trump unfortunately gave her some considerable sway with voters.
I'm morbidly curious how well she does as governor since that is a somewhat complicated job; at least I'm guessing it is given the number of complicated issues I've seen for the role of governor for NY State.
"Sean sparks like John Starks, nah, Sean ball like John Wall" - Rest In Power Forever Sean Price.
legsdiamond Member since May 05th 2011 79554 posts
Wed Feb-08-23 04:44 PM
88. "nah.. like others have said, name recognition" In response to Reply # 84
and while it seems crazy, if you live in Arkansas she is probably a rock star to them.
Look at little Hukabee all grown up.
I’m sure she was on TV a ton as a kid too
**************** TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*
legsdiamond Member since May 05th 2011 79554 posts
Wed Feb-08-23 10:35 AM
78. "the GOP is now a party of goofballs and HS drop outs" In response to Reply # 74
proud too.. smh
**************** TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*
89. "He has a preternatural ability to meet the magnitude of the moment " In response to Reply # 70
He always steps up in big moments in the bright lights (See: 2020).
It’s one of the reasons the sleepy Joe shit was such a terrible miscalculation on the part of the fascists. It’s also the reason the “he should step aside” folks should have several seats.
And people on here are just so sure Ron DeSantis or any of the other polling below 1% losers with shit for brains and personalities of wet wipes would beat him. He’ll eat Ron and the rest of ‘em’s fucking lunch.
People stay sleeping and keep wanting him to be what they want him to be vs. what he actually is which is incredibly smart, incredibly skilled, and a someone who excels under pressure.
-------------------------------
A lot of you players ain't okay.
We would have been better off with an okaycivics board instead of an okayactivist board
94. "I mean, my man do lose like 12 presidential runs " In response to Reply # 89
But I do think he is the guy the country wants at the moment when they want non-scary steadiness and decency.
racist will think Obama is indecent because something his preacher from 20 years ago said, but its hard for MTG to make the case that Biden is not a decent man to racist and non-racist alike.
********** "Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson
96. ""The Most Important Election of Our Lives!" ™" In response to Reply # 0
anyone else sick of this 4 year re-run bullshit to make sure we maintain the status-quo until our extinction?
We're told we can vote for the candidate/policy we believe in the next election....because this election coming up is the most important one of our lives!!!! We can't vote for the candidate/party we actually support because we need to 'defeat fascism!!'
so instead of voting for actual policy, we get to 'choose' which Capitalist war-monger we want. Blue team or Red team.
Funny how the US loves to talk about democracy and freedom....yet we do everything in our power to undermine and ridicule anyone who challenges the oligarchy.
legsdiamond Member since May 05th 2011 79554 posts
Tue Apr-25-23 08:15 AM
100. "smh.. I’ll obviously vote for him but this nigga old AF" In response to Reply # 99
we really need some young energy in the WH.
**************** TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*
101. "Next go round we get Big Gretch & Wes Moore" In response to Reply # 100 Tue Apr-25-23 10:51 AM by Buddy_Gilapagos
I think this is the right play if we get Trump because there doesn't seem to be anyone else who can get all the factions of the Dem party on the same roof.
********** "Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson
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