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Subject: "If They Die, They Die (Ivan Drago Voice)" Previous topic | Next topic
Reeq
Member since Mar 11th 2013
12708 posts
Fri Dec-24-21 01:41 PM

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"If They Die, They Die (Ivan Drago Voice)"


  

          

im done with this altruistic/compassionate shit.

if unvaxxed folks wanna continue to gamble with their bodies…then thats on them.

i feel like too much of our approach revolves around well intentioned people (who do the right thing and get vaxxed) handcuffing themselves to protect the boneheaded assholes whose minds arent changing almost 2 years into this shit.

the biggest burden shouldnt be on the people who are genuinely part of the solution.

the numbers for hospitalizations and deaths are overwhelmingly/dramatically comprised of the unvaxxed. its no longer on everyone else to keep *them* out of harms way.

let the good citizens rock and let the riff raff fend for themselves.

even trump is looking at these people like idiots at this point (s/o candace owens). imagine still caring about these people.

------

  

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Topic Outline
Subject Author Message Date ID
lets apply this same logic to drug addicts or any other self harm
Dec 24th 2021
1
This is a poor analogy, drug addiction is a real and serious health issu...
Dec 24th 2021
5
i dont root for them to die but i dont have any sympathy either.
Dec 24th 2021
8
you have more in common with the alt right than you think
Dec 25th 2021
10
it's legit sadistic, coon shit
Dec 31st 2021
14
addiction is a disease, not getting a vaccine is...
Dec 31st 2021
16
there's absolutely nothing the same about those circumstances
Jan 02nd 2022
31
Anti Vaxx is not a mental illness... it's stupidity
Jan 03rd 2022
44
Don't shout out Candace Owens
Dec 24th 2021
2
the candace owens reference:
Dec 24th 2021
4
      Donald Trump became president today - Van
Dec 24th 2021
7
seems like yesterday when i thought anti-vaxxer i pictured yoga granola ...
Dec 24th 2021
3
The logical conclusion of this sentiment...
Dec 24th 2021
6
Just learn to live without hoops man
Dec 24th 2021
9
everything was undermined back in Feb. 2020
Dec 25th 2021
11
Exactly. Lines were drawn at that point.
Dec 25th 2021
12
      Few things
Jan 01st 2022
28
RE: Just learn to live without hoops man
Dec 31st 2021
15
Booster kicking my ass like the 2nd dose did
Dec 30th 2021
13
Meanwhile ya'll still discounting dead from vaxx
Dec 31st 2021
17
The data is the data
Dec 31st 2021
18
I doubt there wouldn’t be variants if everyone got vaxxed
Dec 31st 2021
20
      Not existing vs not being an issue are two different things
Jan 01st 2022
22
           another covid expert.. lol
Jan 01st 2022
26
                *shrugs* Oh another vaccine fortune teller?
Jan 01st 2022
29
                I’m vaxxed but also humble enough to admit
Jan 02nd 2022
33
                     Who swears we personally have the answers?
Jan 02nd 2022
39
                          the experts are right? FOH
Jan 03rd 2022
40
                          You're making the case for anti-vaxers and don't even know it
Jan 03rd 2022
41
                               LMAO no i'm not.
Jan 04th 2022
65
                Fortune telling? That sounds like an antivaxxer thing
Jan 04th 2022
58
re: Why ya'll keep glossing this little fact over??
Dec 31st 2021
19
      the ole I SURVIVED COVID
Dec 31st 2021
21
      The premise of this post is that we should die...
Jan 01st 2022
23
           nigga, I dont want anyone to die
Jan 01st 2022
25
           Thats fine by me personally
Jan 01st 2022
27
                Wanting you to die vs not minding you die because of your stubbornness
Jan 02nd 2022
32
                Do you have a source for this?
Jan 04th 2022
63
           I don't see where he says you should die
Jan 04th 2022
57
      RE: re: Why ya'll keep glossing this little fact over??
Jan 01st 2022
24
           It makes you idiots because of how you process the data
Jan 02nd 2022
34
           you either believe in using data, or you don’t
Jan 02nd 2022
35
           RE: re: Why ya'll keep glossing this little fact over??
Jan 02nd 2022
36
I’m vaxxed and think people should be. Still, this post is disgusting.
Jan 01st 2022
30
At least we know who the CHUMPS are now
Jan 02nd 2022
37
Never understood the correlation of taking a vaccine
Jan 02nd 2022
38
I hate to say it but I agree.
Jan 03rd 2022
42
Derek Thompson (hygiene theater dude) has been on an interesting run
Jan 03rd 2022
43
its totally random
Jan 03rd 2022
45
      It's not, at all, "totally random."
Jan 03rd 2022
52
      Are you suggesting data can predict who will catch covid and who won’t...
Jan 04th 2022
59
           *sigh* no, that's literally what I'm *not* suggesting.
Jan 04th 2022
61
      There certainly are a lot of vaccinated and boosted people getting it
Jan 04th 2022
62
liberals are fucking sociopaths
Jan 03rd 2022
46
go eat some sea moss bitch.
Jan 03rd 2022
47
^
Jan 03rd 2022
50
LMAO
Jan 03rd 2022
48
Vaccines don't work and do more harm than good?
Jan 04th 2022
55
The data is the data
Jan 03rd 2022
49
^
Jan 03rd 2022
51
So if you get it then go to the tarot card reader
Jan 04th 2022
54
Anti-vaxx sentiment is the definiton of sociopathic behavior.
Jan 04th 2022
56
every fuckn word of this
Jan 04th 2022
69
No disrespect but I think you lost the plot
Jan 04th 2022
71
The idea that all people who are hesitant to get the vaxx
Jan 04th 2022
80
      You just flat out ignored most of what I said.
Jan 04th 2022
82
           no i didnt ignore it. I disputed your core premise
Jan 04th 2022
83
                liberals are fucking sociopath" YOU, so spare the outrage
Jan 05th 2022
84
                     follow the bouncing ball
Jan 05th 2022
87
                          Your blatant disregard for facts applies even to yourself. Bravo.
Jan 05th 2022
90
you instantly lose for making this about the culture war.
Jan 04th 2022
66
Word:
Jan 04th 2022
53
This ain't it.
Jan 04th 2022
60
Do you think Covid and smoking are equal?
Jan 04th 2022
64
It's not that big of an ask for us all to wish wellness upon others
Jan 04th 2022
68
      Lots of things are easy in a vaccuum.
Jan 04th 2022
72
           RE: Lots of things are easy in a vaccuum.
Jan 04th 2022
73
                RE: Lots of things are easy in a vaccuum.
Jan 04th 2022
75
                That is literally not the only thing that matters.
Jan 04th 2022
77
                bullhorn in the park guy over here
Jan 04th 2022
78
                yuuup.
Jan 04th 2022
81
                but its not just about transmission. the more ppl that get vaxxed,
Jan 05th 2022
86
                ^^^^ is a huge reason why this sentiment exists.
Jan 05th 2022
88
                     you're advocating for a lack of nuance.
Jan 05th 2022
89
                          Absolutely not.
Jan 05th 2022
91
                          Yea - let's bow out and agree to disagree
Jan 05th 2022
92
                               100% incorrect.
Jan 05th 2022
93
                                    RE: 100% incorrect.
Jan 05th 2022
95
                                         No, I didn't "attempt" to misconstrue anything.
Jan 05th 2022
97
                                              Everyone is exhausted at this point of this pandemic.
Jan 05th 2022
99
                                                   Imagine being "exhausted" but not doing the bare minimum to help end ...
Jan 05th 2022
100
                                                        I just don't regard the unvaccinated as being complicit in murder
Jan 06th 2022
137
                                                             I respect where your're coming from but, i just don't know the answer
Jan 06th 2022
141
                                                             Yep exactly.
Jan 06th 2022
142
                                                             RE: I respect where your're coming from but, i just don't know the answe...
Jan 07th 2022
147
                                                             ^^^Thinks Miyagi Do is the only way
Jan 06th 2022
144
                                                                  that subject line fits so well
Jan 06th 2022
145
                                                                  So you think your line of thinking achieves more vaccination?
Jan 07th 2022
148
                                                                       Blah, blah, blah. Go be a youth pastor somewhere
Jan 07th 2022
150
                                                                            you sound pretty tough on the internet.
Jan 07th 2022
151
                                                                            LMAO way to build that bridge
Jan 07th 2022
154
                                                                            lol I'm not interested in building bridges to everyone
Jan 07th 2022
155
                                                                            Oh I know. That was obvious- but you're pretending otherwise.
Jan 07th 2022
157
                                                                            when you've got to resort to lame insults - you've already lost
Jan 07th 2022
158
                                                                            yeah, that's bullshit too lmao. But carry on with the canned retorts
Jan 07th 2022
159
                          A few things you are missing about Japan or Asia in general
Jan 05th 2022
94
                               good points.
Jan 05th 2022
96
                                    Not really
Jan 05th 2022
98
                They're aiding and abetting Covid. They are it's ally.
Jan 04th 2022
76
False equivalency. Stop it.
Jan 04th 2022
67
      Relax. We're just having a conversation. No need for sophomoric insults
Jan 04th 2022
70
           RE: Relax. We're just having a conversation. No need for sophomoric ins...
Jan 04th 2022
74
idiocracy, a damn near millenia of modern medical advancements
Jan 04th 2022
79
None of these morons can answer when their "research" ...
Jan 05th 2022
85
mfs would rather get their med advice from podcasts & hotep ig accounts.
Jan 05th 2022
101
There's no point in debating them, really.
Jan 05th 2022
102
      Ima copy and paste this in perpetuity. Thanks. LOL.
Jan 05th 2022
103
      What seems to be consistent is ya'll have no data
Jan 05th 2022
104
      dear god.
Jan 05th 2022
105
      As I said, same response over and over
Jan 06th 2022
119
      Wrote all that but it’s all been debunked for months
Jan 05th 2022
106
      ^
Jan 06th 2022
109
      At least you tried, thank you
Jan 06th 2022
124
           mRNA vaccines aren't the ones linked to clots.
Jan 06th 2022
127
           Bro you are proving the vaccines are unsafe
Jan 06th 2022
           ... and here comes the diversion, right on cue
Jan 06th 2022
133
                The stupidity is astounding.
Jan 06th 2022
136
                Post 131
Jan 06th 2022
143
           Bro you are proving the vaccines are unsafe
Jan 06th 2022
132
           He literally has the sources behind him in EVERY video LOL
Jan 06th 2022
138
      Your assertions: a lot Sources provided: Zero
Jan 06th 2022
122
      100
Jan 06th 2022
123
      RE: Your assertions: a lot Sources provided: Zero
Jan 06th 2022
131
           re: Rueters Fact Check and collusion
Jan 07th 2022
149
                Jesus christ. FORMER CEO. Not the ceo. The former ceo.
Jan 07th 2022
152
                     direct quote, 2nd paragraph from the link shared FROM PFIZER.COM
Jan 07th 2022
153
                          There's a reason you linked an archived announcement
Jan 07th 2022
156
                               Bruh you cant be serious
Jan 07th 2022
160
                                    Sigh. Steve Hasker is the current CEO Of Reuters.
Jan 07th 2022
163
      LMAO. You fucking moron.
Jan 06th 2022
134
           Explain how they work smarty pants
Jan 08th 2022
168
      dude came in here and proved your point to a tee
Jan 05th 2022
107
           he's like the biden didn't win & trump will be reinstated folks
Jan 07th 2022
146
look at the anti vaxxers in *here*.
Jan 05th 2022
108
LOL !
Jan 06th 2022
110
The irony is, they think they're saving themselves
Jan 06th 2022
113
it reminds me of peak okayactivist
Jan 06th 2022
135
NC hospitals say 100% of COVID-19 patients on ventilators are unvaccinat...
Jan 06th 2022
111
It's a conspiracy. These docs are in cahoots w/Gates and making this all...
Jan 06th 2022
112
      BUT THE VACCINE IS NOT STOPPING TRANSMISSION!!
Jan 06th 2022
114
      lol
Jan 06th 2022
115
      rgt.
Jan 06th 2022
117
      in CAPS so it's gotta be true
Jan 06th 2022
118
      LOL. Fucking puds.
Jan 06th 2022
125
      these people's main gripe is liberals are mean and oppressive
Jan 06th 2022
116
           but The Mac and kayru aren't like the others!
Jan 06th 2022
120
           wE ARE the ReSercH
Jan 06th 2022
121
                HAHAHAHA oh my god.
Jan 06th 2022
126
           no. My gripe is liberal smugness about being vaxxed
Jan 07th 2022
161
                your gripe is liberals
Jan 07th 2022
162
                That, and getting facts straight
Jan 07th 2022
164
                I see it now
Jan 07th 2022
165
                LOL imagine potentially dying because of smugness
Jan 07th 2022
166
                Oh look progressives are here to save us again
Jan 08th 2022
167
i think people are annoyed bc the unvaxxed think they are uniquely woke
Jan 06th 2022
128
canadian airlines wont fly home maskless travelers from mexico flight.
Jan 06th 2022
129
Exactly.
Jan 06th 2022
130
this is a distraction and sexy story for the news media here
Jan 06th 2022
140
Pariahs is how they should be treated
Jan 11th 2022
169
dying of anything other than covid cause unvaxxed have all the beds
Jan 06th 2022
139
Quebec is charging unvaccinated patients a tax
Jan 11th 2022
170
Yup. Austria also charging a fine of over 3000 euros per quarter
Jan 12th 2022
171
Love it. My company just got bought out by another company ..
Jan 12th 2022
172
      What health insurance companies should do
Jan 12th 2022
173
      Hm this sounds like a pretty good idea ..
Jan 13th 2022
180
      Oh they'll frame it as "special privliges for the sheeple"
Jan 13th 2022
182
      Are there provisions for those who simply cannot vaccinate for medical
Jan 12th 2022
175
           Oh yes should've said that. They do have med exemptions.
Jan 13th 2022
179
                Good.
Jan 13th 2022
181
LOL ya'll are straight up fascists
Jan 12th 2022
174
      THIS ONE DUDE HAS AN OPINION HE MUST BE RIGHT
Jan 12th 2022
176
      What is this supposed to prove? It’s a gish gallop with no evidence
Jan 12th 2022
177
      you just called for eugenics while calling people fascist
Jan 13th 2022
184
           Eugenics?? How Sway?
Jan 13th 2022
188
                do you understand how a virus works?
Jan 13th 2022
190
                     RE: do you understand how a virus works?
Jan 13th 2022
191
                          I got time today...do you know why you lose this argument?
Jan 14th 2022
204
its over.. unless people start falling out in public like in the movies
Jan 13th 2022
178
There finally seems to be an admission that we need a new Covid policy
Jan 13th 2022
183
I don't agree with all of this
Jan 13th 2022
185
      no surprise there
Jan 13th 2022
193
Any consideration for the racial disparities in the unvaxxed?
Jan 13th 2022
186
tx for sharing. Very underreported part of the whole Covid story
Jan 13th 2022
187
Another thing they won't answer
Jan 13th 2022
189
Bruh, it's legit coon shit
Jan 14th 2022
203
look how idiotic this joe rogan clip is.
Jan 13th 2022
192
This has been one of the most frustrating parts of the pandemic
Jan 13th 2022
194
yeah it shows how asymmetric the competing information environments are.
Jan 13th 2022
195
It's not a JRE virus
Jan 14th 2022
197
      vaccines werent available in the intial wave.
Jan 14th 2022
198
      RE: vaccines werent available in the intial wave.
Jan 14th 2022
199
      Do you need further explanation?
Jan 14th 2022
200
      You really ducking to post Joe Rogan clips <side eye>
Jan 14th 2022
207
           Reek is paid to be a mouthpiece
Jan 14th 2022
208
                I was trying to give dude the benefit of the doubt
Jan 17th 2022
210
      Yup. This is the exact point I made in this post:
Jan 14th 2022
206
regular people have no way to judge information
Jan 16th 2022
209
My bad didnt see this was already posted
Jan 14th 2022
205
Josh Zepps on Rogan lol this is sad
Jan 14th 2022
196
Tim Heidecker’s response to this is hilarious
Jan 14th 2022
201
meathead
Jan 14th 2022
202
man fuck Joe Rogan
Jan 17th 2022
211
https://twitter.com/XGroverX/status/1482921629323829248
Jan 17th 2022
213
Vaccines don't work, Lockdowns don't work...Australia "hold my beer"
Jan 17th 2022
212
Fox goes the other way - cheers when the vaxxed GET Covid
Jan 18th 2022
214
Laura Ingram? No winder you stay mad
Jan 18th 2022
215
lol
Jan 18th 2022
217
lol right.
Jan 18th 2022
218
Lmao
Jan 18th 2022
219
Hahahaha
Jan 18th 2022
220
lol they've been doing that
Jan 18th 2022
216
I see you waited until this fell off the first page
Jan 28th 2022
221
You see it. Dude is an op
Jan 28th 2022
224
as someone who has actually found common ground with him over time
Jan 28th 2022
229
Wife is doing her residency in an overrun hospital right now
Jan 28th 2022
222
^
Jan 28th 2022
223
I mean, fast deaths would clear that overrun faster
Jan 28th 2022
225
      And that's the Cold Truth, Ruth!
Jan 28th 2022
226
      Haha nice.
Jan 28th 2022
227
Any stats on the political affiliations of those dying?
Jan 28th 2022
228

Brotha Sun
Member since Dec 31st 2009
6490 posts
Fri Dec-24-21 01:55 PM

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1. "lets apply this same logic to drug addicts or any other self harm"
In response to Reply # 0


          

Sounds pretty sadistic dont it? Because it is.

This virus will continue to mutate mostly because of shitty government (both vaxxed and unvaxxed can spread and contract the virus) putting profit over people.

Rooting for people to die because they're not fully comfortable with the vaccine after years of misleading and contradictions is insane.

Whether people contract this virus or not depends on whether they're around other people. There's no other variable. And this country refused to have a proper lockdown with universal programs to help people stay at home.


Keep being mad at individuals instead of systems tho.

"They used to call me Baby Luke....but now? The whole damn 2 Liiiive Crew."

  

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calij81
Member since Jan 17th 2007
12933 posts
Fri Dec-24-21 05:41 PM

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5. "This is a poor analogy, drug addiction is a real and serious health issu..."
In response to Reply # 1


          

People who are addicted to drugs largely do not have a choice and treatment is often expedience or addicts don’t have insurance to pay for treatment.

This isn’t the case for anti vaxxers. Most anti vaxxers and people who are eligible to be vaccinated largely choose to be ignorant, dumb and unvaccinated. They have made a conscious choice and those choices have consequences.

The vaccine is not only widely available to all US citizens, it is also FREE to all who want it. No need for healthcare insurance to qualify for a FREE vaccine.

Eventually enough people will be vaccinated, together with those unvaccinated who get Covid and live, and those who get Covid and die and the disease will eventually get less deadly and get rolled into the common cold.

This is what happened with the 1918 epidemic.

  

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mikediggz
Member since Dec 02nd 2003
9584 posts
Fri Dec-24-21 09:44 PM

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8. "i dont root for them to die but i dont have any sympathy either."
In response to Reply # 1


  

          

right today the 2nd person i know who works at the college i work at is in the hospital currently fighting for his life, and he made a conscious decision to not get vaxxed (same as the first person).

first one is a close coworker who ended up in the hospital for 10 days hooked to a ventilator and then had to be on oxygen for weeks. he pulled thru. the current guy is currently in the hospital and will remain there for weeks...he was touch and go for the first few days.

if ppl wanna keep playing with this vax situation good luck with that. there are no guarantees that being vaxxed will save u but damn if the data doesnt show that it will increase your chances of not getting a full blown case. life is about playing the odds.

  

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Amritsar
Member since Jan 18th 2008
30913 posts
Sat Dec-25-21 08:05 AM

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10. "you have more in common with the alt right than you think"
In response to Reply # 1


  

          


>
>Keep being mad at individuals instead of systems tho.


The venn diagram continues to overlap

_______________________________________________
"Mindless populism embodied by Trump and Sanders are like a malignant wart on our body politic"

  

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kayru99
Member since Jan 26th 2004
15935 posts
Fri Dec-31-21 01:30 AM

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14. "it's legit sadistic, coon shit"
In response to Reply # 1


          

and also goes against the science
Mufuckas wishing death on people because they don't trust big pharma is stupid as hell

  

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cgonz00cc
Member since Aug 01st 2002
33251 posts
Fri Dec-31-21 02:08 PM

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16. "addiction is a disease, not getting a vaccine is..."
In response to Reply # 1


  

          

well...not

WHAT A TIME TO BE ALIVE

  

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Rjcc
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94042 posts
Sun Jan-02-22 12:13 AM

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31. "there's absolutely nothing the same about those circumstances"
In response to Reply # 1


          


www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

  

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My_SP1200_Broken_Again
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56792 posts
Mon Jan-03-22 01:03 PM

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44. "Anti Vaxx is not a mental illness... it's stupidity"
In response to Reply # 1


  

          

< Live Mixshow - Thurs 10PM/EST >
< Live Mixshow - Fri/Sat Midnight/EST >
https://twitch.tv/djchiefone


----Mixtape Archives-----
https://soundcloud.com/djchiefone

  

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Kira
Member since Nov 14th 2004
28444 posts
Fri Dec-24-21 02:05 PM

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2. "Don't shout out Candace Owens"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

It's not their unvaxxed status that bothers me it's them spreading it everywhere refusing to wear masks.

I'm bedridden for another 48 hours because of these idiots and their selfishness.

No empathy for white misery (c) BDot

"root for everybody black haters say that's crazy, wow..."

  

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Reeq
Member since Mar 11th 2013
12708 posts
Fri Dec-24-21 03:43 PM

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4. "the candace owens reference:"
In response to Reply # 2


  

          

https://twitter.com/716SportsGuy/status/1473997936065499146

her tryna save face after being completely embarrassed:
https://twitter.com/RonFilipkowski/status/1474473371391995908

------

  

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Mynoriti
Charter member
36876 posts
Fri Dec-24-21 06:51 PM

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7. "Donald Trump became president today - Van"
In response to Reply # 4


  

          

>https://twitter.com/716SportsGuy/status/1473997936065499146
>
>her tryna save face after being completely embarrassed:
>https://twitter.com/RonFilipkowski/status/1474473371391995908

  

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Mynoriti
Charter member
36876 posts
Fri Dec-24-21 03:05 PM

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3. "seems like yesterday when i thought anti-vaxxer i pictured yoga granola ..."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

from portland or hotep types. now it's largely dominated by maga, and roganites.

as whole i'm always torn on it all. i def lean towards what you're saying though. I still try to remember to focus more of my hatred towards the Rand Pauls of this world than the people they are killing with their bullshit.
i've probably spent way too much time here https://www.sorryantivaxxer.com/
it's hard to feel sympathy given some of the nonsense these people are posting sometimes literally from their death bed

But even with that, a lot of the commenters on that site love to run to those people's facebook pages and troll their families, which is just garbage ass behavior.

I remember early on in the pandemic thinking one good thing that will come out of it is this whole anti-vax shit is now deader than dead. what a dumbass.

  

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Teknontheou
Charter member
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Fri Dec-24-21 06:34 PM

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6. "The logical conclusion of this sentiment..."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

is that basically everything should more or less go back to normal - no lockdowns, restrictions, WFH. etc.

I don't personally believe in a total, compete return to the old ways, but I think we shouldn't have another lockdown and things should be at least as open as they were before Delta hit.

  

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Stadiq
Member since Dec 21st 2005
4398 posts
Fri Dec-24-21 11:39 PM

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9. "Just learn to live without hoops man"
In response to Reply # 0
Fri Dec-24-21 11:40 PM by Stadiq

          

You just going to ignore folks with immune issues?

Kids?

Hospitals being overrun and unable to provide
other care?

Etc.


All cuz you’re mad Xmas nba will be garbage?


The real answer to this is something you’ll never
admit and that’s that the Biden admin has been
terrible on this outside of the vaccine.

Put all their stock in that and nothing else.

If the other side was still in charge, you would
have posted a critique of the response.

Instead, you posted some selfish bullshit
TWICE now if you include your rough draft
in OkaySports.

No contact tracing. No testing plan for a year,
then a garbage ass plan. No mandates to
get on planes. No paid leave. No guidance
for schools. Telling everyone to take their
masks off. No rush to develop treatments. No ongoing
relief. No plan to address capacity.

And no plan to wave patents and vaccinate the
world.

The bar was so fucking low for your boy I guess he
couldn’t miss. But the failures of this admin to
lead on this issue and their desire to declare victory
a few months in should disgust anyone without
some blond loyalty agenda shit.


You’d really rather feed vulnerable, well-meaning
people….kids….healthcare workers….and anyone
needing any kind of healthcare to the wolves to
get Bron vs KD?

People who won’t get vaxxed should have harder
lives for sure. Like not being able to fly.

But to pretend they are the only ones still suffering
is selfish entitled bullshit.

Direct some of your frustration at the admin- be consistent.

  

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DJR
Member since Jan 01st 2005
16761 posts
Sat Dec-25-21 10:03 AM

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11. "everything was undermined back in Feb. 2020"
In response to Reply # 9


  

          

when Trump called it a “Democratic hoax”.

There’s nothing this admin can really do when a solid 30-40% of the population is completely brainwashed and thinks the whole thing is some BS and is doing whatever they can to not comply with any recommendations.

  

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soulfunk
Charter member
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Sat Dec-25-21 10:19 AM

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12. "Exactly. Lines were drawn at that point. "
In response to Reply # 11


  

          

For example, Biden telling people that they could go without masks when vaccinated SHOULD have been a great incentive for people to get vaccinated so we could return to “normal”. The same people who had been complaining about mask mandates all along. But it had the opposite effect, because there’s such a large percentage of the population locked in against it. I mentioned it in another post but when those mask mandates changed it ended up being the complete opposite, in that if you had a mask on while in public it was somewhat a sign that you WERE vaxed and taking the pandemic seriously, and vice versa.

All that being said, I think the strategy used in the last couple weeks of praising Trump for the vaccine is great on two fronts - first because if should remind these stupid folks that the vaccine isn’t some Biden created agenda, and to remind them that Trump himself is vaccinated. But second, since Trump can’t resist accepting praise, he’s actually been talking about it, letting folks know he’s boosted and thanking Biden for being “nice” to him, getting boo’d by his own crowds and such. Anything that can potentially chip away at how locked in they are to Trump as their ultimate hero is a positive thing. (Well, until the GOP rallies behind a halfway competent candidate pushing their agenda…)

  

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Stadiq
Member since Dec 21st 2005
4398 posts
Sat Jan-01-22 10:21 PM

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28. "Few things"
In response to Reply # 12


          


1. The vax alone isn’t enough at this point. Treatments,
paid leave, etc would help a lot.

2. Thinking that telling everyone “masks off if
you pinky swear you’re vaxxed” would work
was naive as fuck.

3. There wasn’t enough data to say vaxxed
wouldn’t spread. Spoil alert: vaxxed can spread.

4. Where are the vax mandates to fly? How about
tax credits to vax? Etc? Why is there so little
effort to get vaxxed up?

5. Fuck trump and the GOP. But the idea that poor
Biden can’t do anything to overcome some stuff is
bullshit.

And Trump didn’t just cut quarantine in half.

Anyone who is saying they didn’t expect more out
of the Biden admin is lying. It’s just tough to admit
when your side isn’t that much better.

  

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kayru99
Member since Jan 26th 2004
15935 posts
Fri Dec-31-21 01:35 AM

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15. "RE: Just learn to live without hoops man"
In response to Reply # 9


          

"No contact tracing. No testing plan for a year,
then a garbage ass plan. No mandates to
get on planes. No paid leave. No guidance
for schools. Telling everyone to take their
masks off. No rush to develop treatments. No ongoing
relief. No plan to address capacity.

And no plan to wave patents and vaccinate the
world."

Common sense shit, right?
But nope.

  

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Heinz
Member since Dec 26th 2003
20478 posts
Thu Dec-30-21 09:18 PM

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13. "Booster kicking my ass like the 2nd dose did"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

All moderna

  

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The Mac
Member since Feb 11th 2008
1488 posts
Fri Dec-31-21 03:09 PM

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17. "Meanwhile ya'll still discounting dead from vaxx"
In response to Reply # 0


          

Why would I take a risk when I already beat COVID w/ 0 issues, I have 0% risk of hospitalization or death (30 years old, no health issues, and repeat already beat COVID), vaxx is not doing a thing IRT to transmission (so I'm not helping you or my grandma)...

And if I take it I have a solid chance of developing myocarditis, some neurological disease, or dying?

Why ya'll keep glossing this little fact over??



Lil spreadsheet so ya'll inform ya'llselves in case VAERS (and Israeli, Canadian, EU, UK equivalents) weren't enough...

https://www.canadiancovidcarealliance.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/12/The-COVID-19-Inoculations-More-Harm-Than-Good-REV-Dec-16-2021.pdf

Ya I'm an idiot ignorant asshole for not trusting the most corrupt company in history, and you are smart for vaxxing and masking your 4 year olds...

Cause I'm doing better now, don't mean I never lost shit/ I was married to a state of mind and I divorced it -- Black Thought

  

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DJR
Member since Jan 01st 2005
16761 posts
Fri Dec-31-21 05:05 PM

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18. "The data is the data "
In response to Reply # 17


  

          

No need to cherry-pick.

For the overwhelming majority - they’re better off getting the vaccine than getting COVID.

And these variants wouldn’t be an issue if everyone that was able to get the vaccine, actually got it.

  

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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
72020 posts
Fri Dec-31-21 05:43 PM

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20. "I doubt there wouldn’t be variants if everyone got vaxxed"
In response to Reply # 18


          

and I say this as someone who is vaxxed and has the booster

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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Heinz
Member since Dec 26th 2003
20478 posts
Sat Jan-01-22 12:12 PM

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22. "Not existing vs not being an issue are two different things"
In response to Reply # 20


  

          

Nobody has ever said variants wouldn’t exist, not sure why this is in your reply like it was a point to make and/or to stand by.

You know these last 4-5-6 months of North America feeling somewhat normal again… vaccines compliancy would’ve started that a lot earlier and for a lot longer until a new mutation eventually happened. Within those months people were still dying or having health issues due to covid, a lot or all of that could have been avoided.

  

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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
72020 posts
Sat Jan-01-22 09:04 PM

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26. "another covid expert.. lol"
In response to Reply # 22


          

you guys have no idea wtf would happen if everyone was vaxxed.

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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Heinz
Member since Dec 26th 2003
20478 posts
Sat Jan-01-22 11:03 PM

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29. "*shrugs* Oh another vaccine fortune teller?"
In response to Reply # 26


  

          

And most likely has every other vaccine lol tell us more.

  

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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
72020 posts
Sun Jan-02-22 10:20 AM

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33. "I’m vaxxed but also humble enough to admit"
In response to Reply # 29


          

I have no idea wtf will happen regarding this virus

some of yall swear you have all the answers simply because you are vaxxed.

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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Heinz
Member since Dec 26th 2003
20478 posts
Sun Jan-02-22 01:22 PM

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39. "Who swears we personally have the answers?"
In response to Reply # 33
Sun Jan-02-22 01:22 PM by Heinz

  

          

Also stating you are vaxxed first doesn’t negate the stupid statement after. Nobody is claiming shit other than listening to experts who continue to get it right, who are continuing to make decisions on the data as it evolves aka science. We are seeing it in real time and its like you fucks cant comprehend that shit and need one stop solutions in predictions in absolutes. See a therapist for that issue, don’t spread the virus or your stupidity and blame the media and science lol

  

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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
72020 posts
Mon Jan-03-22 10:49 AM

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40. "the experts are right? FOH"
In response to Reply # 39
Mon Jan-03-22 11:00 AM by legsdiamond

          

even the experts admit they don’t know.. lol

you guys say “if everyone just listened to the experts we wouldn’t be where we are” is bullshit.

and this is the problem I have with these smug replies. Someone has doubts or a question about covid prevention and yall quick to be on some “You fucking idiots are idiots”

Is it possible to have a discussion without acting like its WWE?

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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PimpTrickGangstaClik
Member since Oct 06th 2005
15546 posts
Mon Jan-03-22 11:12 AM

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41. "You're making the case for anti-vaxers and don't even know it"
In response to Reply # 39


          

>Nobody is claiming shit other than listening
>to experts who continue to get it right, who are continuing to
>make decisions on the data as it evolves aka science.
>

First, "continue to get it right" is highly debatable.

Second, the experts are "making decisions on the data as it evolves".
Consider the choice of someone in a low risk category. Wouldn't a wait and see approach with the vaccines be perfectly rational? The more data that comes out, the more you learn about what works, what doesn't work, what the risks are, etc.

_______________________________________

  

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Heinz
Member since Dec 26th 2003
20478 posts
Tue Jan-04-22 01:05 PM

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65. "LMAO no i'm not. "
In response to Reply # 41


  

          

But YOU see it that way because you NEED to see it that way.

  

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Cold Truth
Member since Jan 28th 2004
42697 posts
Tue Jan-04-22 11:42 AM

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58. "Fortune telling? That sounds like an antivaxxer thing"
In response to Reply # 26


  

          

Right along with other bullshit superstitions like astrology.

There's mountains of data that shows what happens when everyone who can get vaxxed, gets vaxxed.

There's also plenty of data that shows what happens when people start to forgo vaccines for things that were previously contained, such as measles.

This isn't "fortune telling". It's an educated guess. That guess could be wrong, but it's not at all without significant merit.

All this shit is about percentages and likelihoods, not absolute certainty.

  

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double negative
Member since Dec 14th 2007
22070 posts
Fri Dec-31-21 05:42 PM

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19. "re: Why ya'll keep glossing this little fact over??"
In response to Reply # 17


  

          

>Why would I take a risk when I already beat COVID w/ 0
>issues, I have 0% risk of hospitalization or death (30 years
>old, no health issues, and repeat already beat COVID), vaxx is
>not doing a thing IRT to transmission (so I'm not helping you
>or my grandma)...
>
>And if I take it I have a solid chance of developing
>myocarditis, some neurological disease, or dying?
>
>Why ya'll keep glossing this little fact over??
>
>


1. vaccines prevent mutations. if we keep fucking around, we're about to find the fuck out with a vaccine proof variant if it already hasn't happened.

2. I have several heart conditions I monitor, remember in 2020 when young people were dropping dead from strokes and heart attacks? The risk of myocarditis is something I've considered, but the risk of getting into trouble from covid complications is just too high for me.

3. again and again...people seem to focus on death being the reason for being afraid of covid. Man, long covid is no joke.

The prosthetic industry has been pretty active since covid popped off because there are lots of cases of people losing extremities relating to oxygen starvation. https://www.uchealth.org/today/severe-covid-19-leads-to-limb-amputation/

Few seem to talk about the fact that rehab centers have been filling up since covid hit. Oh cool, you survived...now take your sick ass to rehab while we help you try to live a somewhat normal life.

Few seem to talk about what it's like to be in the hospital with covid...man, you don't just chill in the hospital, you spend the majority laying on your stomach laying prone to help oxygen get into your lungs.

There are people who are now suicidal because they haven't been able to taste food or smell...still. Theres even an unfortunate subgroup of people who have an altered sense of taste where everything tastes like rotting food and since this is all new, we don't know if things are going to go back to normal or not.

4. Just for once, tell us what you think we should be doing? I've seen every argument for pushing back on covid vaccines, but never a real solid plan of action beyond, "um, not for me" - ok, then, what? We just ignore things because they are not that bad?

***********************************************************
https://soundcloud.com/swageyph/yph-die-with-me

  

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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
72020 posts
Fri Dec-31-21 06:05 PM

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21. "the ole I SURVIVED COVID"
In response to Reply # 19


          

so it isn’t serious

is such an odd view of things.

I’m vaxxed and haven’t had covid yet (knock on wood) so this means everyone should have my experience right?

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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The Mac
Member since Feb 11th 2008
1488 posts
Sat Jan-01-22 05:31 PM

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23. "The premise of this post is that we should die..."
In response to Reply # 21


          

And ya'll would laugh and not give a fuck about us...

Ya'll foul as fuck but then I'm odd b/c I laid out my reasons for not getting a shitty, faulty, experimental treatment?

I never said anything about anybody having my experience. I never forced anything upon ya'll. I never said it with arrogance or presumption or pressure onto you. Ya'll want me to die. And I'm explaining why I'm good on your vaxx that you think will make me not die. I see it differently. I don't want you to see it my way, and I don't want you to die...but I do wish ya'll would be a bit more respectful...do you not see the big difference?

Cause I'm doing better now, don't mean I never lost shit/ I was married to a state of mind and I divorced it -- Black Thought

  

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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
72020 posts
Sat Jan-01-22 08:56 PM

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25. "nigga, I dont want anyone to die"
In response to Reply # 23


          

but I do feel like any unvaxxed folk who need treatment should be at the back of the line.

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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The Mac
Member since Feb 11th 2008
1488 posts
Sat Jan-01-22 09:06 PM

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27. "Thats fine by me personally"
In response to Reply # 25


          

You didn't but Reeq as OP clearly doesnt mind us dying.

Either way your position sets a hell of a precedent. Arbitrarily create new divisions to discriminate against others.

Ya'll set the line at vaccines but when it comes to ...addiction, obesity, etc...excuses and excuses


What I don't understand is why, say, cloosing McD's is too extreme, but forcing unproven vaccines is not only OK, but we should be at the bottom of society and denied service? Ya'll realize vaccinated are transmitting AT THE SAME RATE right?

I just find it funny how OKP be all social justice about 99% of shit, but when it comes to this COVID shit ya'll are down for segregation, death, etc for people who don't think like you

Cause I'm doing better now, don't mean I never lost shit/ I was married to a state of mind and I divorced it -- Black Thought

  

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Heinz
Member since Dec 26th 2003
20478 posts
Sun Jan-02-22 01:08 AM

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32. "Wanting you to die vs not minding you die because of your stubbornness"
In response to Reply # 27


  

          

Are completely two different thoughts.

You DO realize not wanting to be part of the solution the people who died, could die, or at risk of severe symptoms, health care workers, majority of your country are all saying the exact same thing to you right? LOL

But it’s only offensive when someone else thinks it of you? Foh with your fake tears.

  

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Backbone
Charter member
8319 posts
Tue Jan-04-22 01:01 PM

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63. "Do you have a source for this?"
In response to Reply # 27


  

          

>Ya'll
>realize vaccinated are transmitting AT THE SAME RATE right?

All I found was that (peak) viral loads in vaccinated and unvaccinated people are similar, but transmission rates are different because vaccinated folks present fewer symptoms and clear the virus from their system quicker.
Maybe the Omicron variant changes this picture, but afaik there's not a whole lot of finished research on it yet.

___________________
"So this is what everybody's always talking about! Diablo! If only I'd known. The beauty! The beauty!"

  

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Cold Truth
Member since Jan 28th 2004
42697 posts
Tue Jan-04-22 11:36 AM

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57. "I don't see where he says you should die"
In response to Reply # 23


  

          

Or that he wants you to die

The sentiment expressed is that you, and those who share your views on the vaccine, are choosing to forgo the best and most reasonable available option that would best contain this pandemic, likely constraining it's evolution in the process, lessening the strain on the health care system and front line workers, lessening the negative impact to the economy, etc.

Nobody wants you to die. But on the whole, antivaxxers are on the low end of the empathy totem pole, because antivaxxers are doing the most to help it stick around- which means you're helping all the other shit that comes with it.

By and large, there's very little to empathize with there. Covid is deadly, yet your camp is actively fighting the best available methods to fight COVID. So yeah, if antivaxx folks die because they don't want to get vaccinated, why should the rest of us shed tears for that?

And to be crystal clear here, that is not the same as actively rooting for you to die, which isn't at all what I or the OP said.

Frankly, it's unsurprising that an antivaxxer is misrepresenting the sentiment of the OP. It is a little too on brand though.

  

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The Mac
Member since Feb 11th 2008
1488 posts
Sat Jan-01-22 05:36 PM

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24. "RE: re: Why ya'll keep glossing this little fact over??"
In response to Reply # 19


          


>
>1. vaccines prevent mutations. if we keep fucking around,
>we're about to find the fuck out with a vaccine proof variant
>if it already hasn't happened.

That's not entirely true, and there are many scientists who argue the opposite. See "leaky vaccines" "immune escape" - Dr Geert van den Bosche...


>
>2. I have several heart conditions I monitor, remember in 2020
>when young people were dropping dead from strokes and heart
>attacks? The risk of myocarditis is something I've considered,
>but the risk of getting into trouble from covid complications
>is just too high for me.

I totally get that and I respect your decision to get vaccinated. I respect that you think the vaccine can help with your heart condition. I am VERY close to somebody similar - 4 heart surgeries, a lifelong heart condition - and he doesn't want to take it b/c he is worried about further inflammation. I can't see why that makes him an idiot?

>
>3. again and again...people seem to focus on death being the
>reason for being afraid of covid. Man, long covid is no joke.
>
>
>The prosthetic industry has been pretty active since covid
>popped off because there are lots of cases of people losing
>extremities relating to oxygen starvation.
>https://www.uchealth.org/today/severe-covid-19-leads-to-limb-amputation/
>
>Few seem to talk about the fact that rehab centers have been
>filling up since covid hit. Oh cool, you survived...now take
>your sick ass to rehab while we help you try to live a
>somewhat normal life.
>
>Few seem to talk about what it's like to be in the hospital
>with covid...man, you don't just chill in the hospital, you
>spend the majority laying on your stomach laying prone to help
>oxygen get into your lungs.
>
>There are people who are now suicidal because they haven't
>been able to taste food or smell...still. Theres even an
>unfortunate subgroup of people who have an altered sense of
>taste where everything tastes like rotting food and since this
>is all new, we don't know if things are going to go back to
>normal or not.

I understand all that but that doesn't make people hesitant to get the vaccine idiots that we should wish death upon does it?


>
>4. Just for once, tell us what you think we should be doing?
>I've seen every argument for pushing back on covid vaccines,
>but never a real solid plan of action beyond, "um, not for me"
>- ok, then, what? We just ignore things because they are not
>that bad?
>

I think we should have a real conversation about the vaccines safety, build real informed consent, and learn to live with COVID, because vaxx or not it's here to stay even hopefully in a mild fashion. We should NOT quarantine healthy people, lockdown the world, and mandate experimental medications.

Cause I'm doing better now, don't mean I never lost shit/ I was married to a state of mind and I divorced it -- Black Thought

  

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Heinz
Member since Dec 26th 2003
20478 posts
Sun Jan-02-22 11:13 AM

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34. "It makes you idiots because of how you process the data "
In response to Reply # 24


  

          

The biggest argument right now is that the death numbers are low when discussing Omicron. You guys stopped making that argument for Covid in general because the actual data is way too large to even make that stupid statement. So if Omicron death numbers are so low and shouldnt be a concern NOW then why do you disregard the death numbers as a result of the vaccine?! It’s the same argument that you are making for variants/lockdown talks. You just cherry pick stats because you don’t know how to process them while making intelligent talking points. The fact you think there is an overwhelmng number or scientists and epidemiologists who argue against the vaccines or the data is crazy. Nobody denies they exist but again lets use your same argument for low percentage of deaths in this talking point. The percentage of scientists and epidemiologists who agree with you is so insignificant and not concerning compared to the ones who do believe in the science and data that you should be keeping that same energy but you don’t…. Because you are just scared to get a jab. And thats all this is about. Not health, not the concern for others. It’s all based in feelings.

  

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DJR
Member since Jan 01st 2005
16761 posts
Sun Jan-02-22 11:29 AM

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35. "you either believe in using data, or you don’t "
In response to Reply # 24


  

          

You don’t get to cherry pick and manipulate it to try to fit the point that you’re already hellbent on making.

If we’re using data, use data. It’s pretty straightforward.

  

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double negative
Member since Dec 14th 2007
22070 posts
Sun Jan-02-22 11:33 AM

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36. "RE: re: Why ya'll keep glossing this little fact over??"
In response to Reply # 24


  

          

>
>>
>>1. vaccines prevent mutations. if we keep fucking around,
>>we're about to find the fuck out with a vaccine proof
>variant
>>if it already hasn't happened.
>
>That's not entirely true, and there are many scientists who
>argue the opposite. See "leaky vaccines" "immune escape" - Dr
>Geert van den Bosche...
>
>
>>
>>2. I have several heart conditions I monitor, remember in
>2020
>>when young people were dropping dead from strokes and heart
>>attacks? The risk of myocarditis is something I've
>considered,
>>but the risk of getting into trouble from covid
>complications
>>is just too high for me.
>
>I totally get that and I respect your decision to get
>vaccinated. I respect that you think the vaccine can help
>with your heart condition. I am VERY close to somebody
>similar - 4 heart surgeries, a lifelong heart condition - and
>he doesn't want to take it b/c he is worried about further
>inflammation. I can't see why that makes him an idiot?
>
>>
>>3. again and again...people seem to focus on death being the
>>reason for being afraid of covid. Man, long covid is no
>joke.
>>
>>
>>The prosthetic industry has been pretty active since covid
>>popped off because there are lots of cases of people losing
>>extremities relating to oxygen starvation.
>>https://www.uchealth.org/today/severe-covid-19-leads-to-limb-amputation/
>>
>>Few seem to talk about the fact that rehab centers have been
>>filling up since covid hit. Oh cool, you survived...now take
>>your sick ass to rehab while we help you try to live a
>>somewhat normal life.
>>
>>Few seem to talk about what it's like to be in the hospital
>>with covid...man, you don't just chill in the hospital, you
>>spend the majority laying on your stomach laying prone to
>help
>>oxygen get into your lungs.
>>
>>There are people who are now suicidal because they haven't
>>been able to taste food or smell...still. Theres even an
>>unfortunate subgroup of people who have an altered sense of
>>taste where everything tastes like rotting food and since
>this
>>is all new, we don't know if things are going to go back to
>>normal or not.
>
>I understand all that but that doesn't make people hesitant to
>get the vaccine idiots that we should wish death upon does it?

Yeah - no. My bad, I'm not in agreeance with the original sentiment of the post. No one should die, no one should die from a stupidly preventable death. Thats not my argument here. I'm frustrated. I'm really, extremely frustrated with the way people have been taking covid, like the people who are in hospitals on deaths door who refuse to believe covid is real or that they even have covid despite the fact that they are there in the hospital for...covid.

>
>
>
>>
>>4. Just for once, tell us what you think we should be doing?
>>I've seen every argument for pushing back on covid vaccines,
>>but never a real solid plan of action beyond, "um, not for
>me"
>>- ok, then, what? We just ignore things because they are not
>>that bad?
>>
>
>I think we should have a real conversation about the vaccines
>safety, build real informed consent, and learn to live with
>COVID, because vaxx or not it's here to stay even hopefully in
>a mild fashion. We should NOT quarantine healthy people,
>lockdown the world, and mandate experimental medications.
>

So that's the thing...the part about quarantining "healthy people" is that it's a paradox. A good amount of covid cases are asymptomatic, but they can still be spreading it completely unaware that they are getting lots of people sick. Put that fact on a plate and add a side of mask defiance and you have a nice lil' meal going.

I HOPE LIKE FUCK EXTRA TERRESTRIAL LIFE DOESN'T COME IN THE NEXT TEN YEARS.

we can't come together for shit.

***********************************************************
https://soundcloud.com/swageyph/yph-die-with-me

  

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Tiger Woods
Member since Feb 15th 2004
17413 posts
Sat Jan-01-22 11:36 PM

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30. "I’m vaxxed and think people should be. Still, this post is disgusting."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Shame on the op and anyone who endorses this behavior.

  

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handle
Charter member
17683 posts
Sun Jan-02-22 11:49 AM

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37. "At least we know who the CHUMPS are now"
In response to Reply # 0
Sun Jan-02-22 12:01 PM by handle

          

I don't wish them death - but if they die (without taking anyone with them) I'm much less surprised.

If they die and cause people around them disease - I lost any sympathy for them.

My Uncle's HOBBY was being a covid denier and anti-vaxx person. He's dead from COVID - unless you ask his wife - who says the death was "probably" caused by a pneumonia vaccine the doctor "tricked" him into taking.

He could have taken the COVID vaccine and STILL died - but I have much less sympathy for him then I would have he he practiced a single ounce of prevention.

And my 12 year old cousin is fatherless now.

Saracasm:At least he didn't live his life in fear -- although the last month of his life was spent living on his chest in a hospital bed with bed sores on his face and no visitors allowed.

Not eople with actual, valid medical reasons who can not take the vaccine are not viewed by me in this way.

------------


Gone: My Discogs collection for The Roots:
http://www.discogs.com/user/tomhayes-roots/collection

  

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Heinz
Member since Dec 26th 2003
20478 posts
Sun Jan-02-22 01:17 PM

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38. "Never understood the correlation of taking a vaccine "
In response to Reply # 37


  

          

Equating to living in fear lol

I took the vaccine and other than wearing a mask i have been living my regular life. Pre vaccienes i was way more cautious though more so getting my pops (cancer) or moms (diabetic) sick, or any of my friends parents sick. You know, being a responsible person in society.

We live in a society you know! *Costanza voice*

  

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walihorse
Member since Aug 03rd 2006
16107 posts
Mon Jan-03-22 11:32 AM

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42. "I hate to say it but I agree. "
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

More so the part that kills is how these unvaxxed hospital patients treat health care workers.

They yell and accuse them of shit, all due to their lack on common sense.
just reading through this thread, I know its anecdotal, but still there is a correlation.

https://www.reddit.com/r/nursing/comments/rm1gak/i_just_love_when_my_patient_is_watching_fox_news/

If you that adamant about not getting treatment for covid then keep your ass home. The leap between nope, I don't want something in my body to then well I need an IV and other types of drugs to heal me, makes no sense to me at all.

You bout it be bout it, stay the fuck home when you're sick.

If you don't want the vaccine which can help prevent death then decide to do whatever you want and contract a KNOWN illness than its on you.

Why do I have to worry about your health or your life when you clearly don't. Is it cruel? Maybe, not like I am out in front of hospitals with signs saying stay out unvaxxed, you body your choice and Jesus cures all so, go pray.

If a fat guy falls in the woods and there is no one around to see it, do the trees laugh?

  

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Nodima
Member since Jul 30th 2008
14598 posts
Mon Jan-03-22 12:45 PM

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43. "Derek Thompson (hygiene theater dude) has been on an interesting run"
In response to Reply # 0
Mon Jan-03-22 12:46 PM by Nodima

  

          

He's recently been pointing out that COVID has gone through three distinct phases and that this third phase is by far the most complicated. I'm paraphrasing but this is essentially his breakdown and I can relate to it.


Phase 1: HOLY SHIT WHAT IS HAPPENING, or, WHY ARE YOU DOING THIS TO US

Phase 2: Yay, let's all get vaccinated, or, Y'all, we been out here anyway

Phase 3: Hey please get vaccinated and wear a mask in all social settings still, or, Hey please get vaccinated and get back to life as normal, or, Y'all over there looking dumb as hell getting sick with your snake oil and/or still wearing masks


And I feel it so acutely because I still so distinctly remember fall of 2020, working restaurant service with a mask and mocking customers who refused or chose not to wear one with my coworkers during that service...only to walk across the street to the industry bar after work and not wear a mask unless I went to the bathroom. And now I feel almost ENTIRELY different, where I watch someone walk to the bar I now work at wearing a mask in the street, take it off when they sit down, put it on whenever they go to the bathroom, take it off whenever they're seated, then put it on when they leave...to me, even the mask is just theater now. It's a presentation in lieu of an actual stance or preventative measure. It's just a personality/political trait now.

We lost the plot on this whole thing. It sucks. I'm not any better than anybody but it's wild.





~~~~~~~~~
"This is the streets, and I am the trap." � Jay Bilas
http://www.popmatters.com/pm/archive/contributor/517
Hip Hop Handbook: http://tinyurl.com/ll4kzz

  

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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
72020 posts
Mon Jan-03-22 01:18 PM

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45. "its totally random"
In response to Reply # 43


          

and so many people I know who are vaxxed and boosters are getting it..

also read how some “experts” are suggesting over vaccinating could make it easier
to catch it. Huh!?!!

everyone at my gig has had it…. except me.

coworker is vaxxed and booster’d and caught it. Her fiance and son aren’t vaxxed. They didn’t catch it.


make it make sense.

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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Brew
Member since Nov 23rd 2002
21756 posts
Mon Jan-03-22 11:42 PM

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52. "It's not, at all, "totally random.""
In response to Reply # 45


          

>coworker is vaxxed and booster’d and caught it. Her fiance and son aren’t vaxxed. They didn’t catch it.
>make it make sense.

You just have to be willing and able to consider widely available context and data analyses rather than coming to a conclusion based off your coworker's one-off anecdote.

----------------------------------------

"Fuck aliens." © WarriorPoet415

  

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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
72020 posts
Tue Jan-04-22 12:29 PM

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59. "Are you suggesting data can predict who will catch covid and who won’t..."
In response to Reply # 52


          

I’m sorry but that sounds like bullshit.

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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Brew
Member since Nov 23rd 2002
21756 posts
Tue Jan-04-22 12:44 PM

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61. "*sigh* no, that's literally what I'm *not* suggesting."
In response to Reply # 59


          

Not sure if I could have possibly been clearer in that regard.

----------------------------------------

"Fuck aliens." © WarriorPoet415

  

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Vex_id
Charter member
65197 posts
Tue Jan-04-22 12:48 PM

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62. "There certainly are a lot of vaccinated and boosted people getting it"
In response to Reply # 45


          

especially right now - but still most of the spread (and certainly the hospitalization) is being driven by the unvaccinated.

But the important point is not whether one gets Covid (essentially all of us will encounter it at some point in our lifetimes most likely as it becomes endemic and stays circulating long-term) - but it's how severe will your disease be when you get it.

The data is clear that the vaccines do a good job at preventing severe disease and hospitalization - even if they are leaky when it comes to preventing initial infection.

The CDC's messaging has been inconsistent and abysmal throughout. I still don't understand why they were claiming that the vaccines would halt infection (which is never what they were designed to do) instead of emphasizing the primary utility/design of the vaccine: to prevent severe disease, hospitalization and death.

-->

  

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kayru99
Member since Jan 26th 2004
15935 posts
Mon Jan-03-22 07:36 PM

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46. "liberals are fucking sociopaths"
In response to Reply # 0
Mon Jan-03-22 07:37 PM by kayru99

          

Damn any other possible treatment protocols, that scientists around the world are looking for/finding success with.

Damn any medical reasons that people may have with the vaxx.

NOPE.
PFIZER OR DIE.

Y'all are goddamn loons

  

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Reeq
Member since Mar 11th 2013
12708 posts
Mon Jan-03-22 08:40 PM

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47. "go eat some sea moss bitch."
In response to Reply # 46


  

          

------

  

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Brew
Member since Nov 23rd 2002
21756 posts
Mon Jan-03-22 11:32 PM

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50. "^"
In response to Reply # 47


          

----------------------------------------

"Fuck aliens." © WarriorPoet415

  

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Shaun Tha Don
Member since Nov 19th 2005
18140 posts
Mon Jan-03-22 09:00 PM

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48. "LMAO"
In response to Reply # 46
Mon Jan-03-22 09:05 PM by Shaun Tha Don

          

And DAMN if even their own idols admit that their sacred-cow ideas don't work and do more harm than good.

Rest In Peace, Bad News Brown

  

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Cold Truth
Member since Jan 28th 2004
42697 posts
Tue Jan-04-22 11:12 AM

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55. "Vaccines don't work and do more harm than good? "
In response to Reply # 48
Tue Jan-04-22 11:14 AM by Cold Truth

  

          

>And DAMN if even their own idols admit that their sacred-cow
>ideas don't work and do more harm than good.

Can you clarify this? Because that language comes across as very hyperbolic.

Are you saying that COVID vaccines in particular do not work and do more harm than good?

If that's your statement, I'd love to see the data that makes that exact point: that they do not work, and do more harm than good.

Because that statement isn't citing outliers, it's stating that this is the actual rule. And that's a fairly high charge, so I'd love to see the supporting data.

  

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DJR
Member since Jan 01st 2005
16761 posts
Mon Jan-03-22 09:16 PM

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49. "The data is the data "
In response to Reply # 46


  

          

Almost everyone should be vaccinated.

Stop getting cancer patient’s surgeries cancelled because you unvaxxed rubes are taking up all the hospital beds because you’re weird and scared.

  

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Brew
Member since Nov 23rd 2002
21756 posts
Mon Jan-03-22 11:33 PM

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51. "^"
In response to Reply # 49


          

----------------------------------------

"Fuck aliens." © WarriorPoet415

  

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Heinz
Member since Dec 26th 2003
20478 posts
Tue Jan-04-22 10:40 AM

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54. "So if you get it then go to the tarot card reader"
In response to Reply # 46


  

          

Not the hospital lol

Foh. The story is always the same. People cry about not wanting a vaccine. Get covid. Cry to the doctors to give them the vaccine. Then they set up a gofundme for their bills and inevitable funeral….then become a TikTok meme. So go ahead. Use seamoss, essential oils, burn your sage the ‘ronaz away.

Thats what the OG post means.

  

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Cold Truth
Member since Jan 28th 2004
42697 posts
Tue Jan-04-22 11:14 AM

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56. "Anti-vaxx sentiment is the definiton of sociopathic behavior. "
In response to Reply # 46


  

          

Do you have videos of pro-vax people, say, abusing service workers, because they ask them to wear a mask?

Granted, I'm sure you can find some outliers where pro-vaxx people exhibit that sort of sociopath behavior. But antivaxxers have largely that shit on lock.

The fact is, the anti-vaxx community displays those behaviors in droves.

Are pro-vaxx people overloading hospital ER's across the country, straining the system, and creating a very real problem for anyone else who needs care?

Are pro-vaxx people harassing teachers and school board members across the country?

As has been said: the data is the data. Vaccines are overwhelmingly the best way to deal with a virus, and the overwhelmingly best way to contain a pandemic.

Conversely, refusing the vaccine actively contributes to the spread- and evolution- of COVID.

You know those people who can't get vaccinated for actual, diagnosed medical issues? or children too young to get the vaccine? The pro-vaxx crowd isn't putting them in danger. The antivaxx crowd is.

This is demonstrable and inarguable sociopathic behavior.

To that end, There's nothing sociopathic about compassion fatigue. Everyone has a limit to how much compassion they have for a given situation.

There's nothing sociopathic about the sentiment expressed in the OP.

It's simply acknowledging that the impact on the antivaxx community is, at this point, largely on themselves, and the OP- like many of us- are finding it increasingly difficult to care about them, because their decisions on this issue have consequences for all of us, because getting COVID is not the only consequence of COVID.

So yeah, for whoever fits that bill, a lot of us are fresh out of fucks to give. That's not sociopathy talking. It's fucking exhaustion.

  

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Mynoriti
Charter member
36876 posts
Tue Jan-04-22 01:41 PM

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69. "every fuckn word of this"
In response to Reply # 56


  

          

particularly the exhaustion part

>Do you have videos of pro-vax people, say, abusing service
>workers, because they ask them to wear a mask?
>
>Granted, I'm sure you can find some outliers where pro-vaxx
>people exhibit that sort of sociopath behavior. But
>antivaxxers have largely that shit on lock.
>
>The fact is, the anti-vaxx community displays those behaviors
>in droves.
>
>Are pro-vaxx people overloading hospital ER's across the
>country, straining the system, and creating a very real
>problem for anyone else who needs care?
>
>Are pro-vaxx people harassing teachers and school board
>members across the country?
>
>As has been said: the data is the data. Vaccines are
>overwhelmingly the best way to deal with a virus, and the
>overwhelmingly best way to contain a pandemic.
>
>Conversely, refusing the vaccine actively contributes to the
>spread- and evolution- of COVID.
>
>You know those people who can't get vaccinated for actual,
>diagnosed medical issues? or children too young to get the
>vaccine? The pro-vaxx crowd isn't putting them in danger. The
>antivaxx crowd is.
>
>This is demonstrable and inarguable sociopathic behavior.
>
>To that end, There's nothing sociopathic about compassion
>fatigue. Everyone has a limit to how much compassion they have
>for a given situation.
>
>There's nothing sociopathic about the sentiment expressed in
>the OP.
>
>It's simply acknowledging that the impact on the antivaxx
>community is, at this point, largely on themselves, and the
>OP- like many of us- are finding it increasingly difficult to
>care about them, because their decisions on this issue have
>consequences for all of us, because getting COVID is not the
>only consequence of COVID.
>
>So yeah, for whoever fits that bill, a lot of us are fresh out
>of fucks to give. That's not sociopathy talking. It's fucking
>exhaustion.

  

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Stadiq
Member since Dec 21st 2005
4398 posts
Tue Jan-04-22 02:02 PM

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71. "No disrespect but I think you lost the plot"
In response to Reply # 56
Tue Jan-04-22 02:05 PM by Stadiq

          

I agree with everything you are saying- but it isn't what Reeq is saying.

"let the good citizens rock and let the riff raff fend for themselves."


He's essentially saying let the vaxxed go back to normal. It was originally posted in OkaySports because of health protocols.


The problem with letting the vaxxed go back to normal is that vaxxed can still spread.

Immune issues, kids, those who can't get the vax, waning boosters, etc- all would be at even greater risk if we let " the good citizens rock"

Not to mention- either way- the hospitals will be filled and good citizens will be impacted.


Also, with Reeq there is always an element of defending the current administration. He is essentially putting the raging pandemic on individuals rather than our governments failures to help, enforce, etc.

This was his version of "Vaxxed? Okay, masks off lets party!"


Fuck anti-vaxxers and their actions that put everyone at risk.


But at some point we have to admit that "good folks" getting vaccines alone is not the answer. The administration desperately wants it to be and has put all of the eggs in that basket.

There needs to be more enforcement on vax.

There needs to be a plan to vaxx the world.

There needs to be investment in ventilation.

There needs to be the same resources put into developing safe treatments as vaccines.

There needs to be paid leave.

There needs to be better testing

etc etc

Fuck anti-vaxxers but this thing isn't raging still ONLY because of them. I'll never understand why the same dudes who posted weekly about Trump's failures are suddenly ghost on Bidens.

There is a hell of a lot more work to do.


But Reeq doesn't want to make that post because his default is to deflect and defend when it comes to Democrats. Instead its "we did our part, fuck everyone else, lets get back to KD vs Bron"

That type of thinking is almost as bad as anti-vax. It is just as individualistic, selfish, etc.

A global pandemic isn't about individual responsibility.


This idea that because a slight majority of us are vaxxed that we should be able to just act like the pandemic over is insane, selfish, and lacking compassion for other "good folks"

  

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kayru99
Member since Jan 26th 2004
15935 posts
Tue Jan-04-22 09:37 PM

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80. "The idea that all people who are hesitant to get the vaxx"
In response to Reply # 56
Tue Jan-04-22 09:48 PM by kayru99

          

are abusive assholes is simply not true.

Shit most of my friends in the medical profession (nurses and doctors) are hesitant to get it, and it CLEARLY is a trend in that industry.

If you grew up in or around a working class Black community, then you know dozens of people who ain't getting the vaxx, no time soon. Nametag, service industry workers.

In NYC, the vast majority of working class Black people are unvaxxed, and I'm pretty certain it's even more pronounced in rural Black south.

If you shrug off my people's justifiable suspicion of Pfizer/big pharma, and say they deserve to die because of it, you're either a fucking cracker or a fucking coon.

I know OKP is liberal middle class white people and their token Black pets, but the real world is way more complex and varied than this goof ass bubble of a place.

Y'all keep harping on "the data is the data" but the data says A LOT of things:

the data says America already had a hospital bed and nursing shortage for years PRIOR to COVID.

the data says we have to wealth to simply MAKE MORE HEALTH FACILITIES.
But we don't have a public health care system because everything in america is privatized

the data says the vaccinated can spread the disease as much as the unvaxxed

the data says COVID affects the elderly and the obese way more than anyone else.


the data says Vitamin d, fluvoxamine, and dietary/lifestyle changes are strong preventatives in dealing with COVID...maaaaaybe we should promote those to the vaccine hesitant to save lives

the data says that Pfizer is the most corrupt medical organization in human history and appears to have fudged a lot of data in rushing out it's product.

A functioning civil society that wasn't a complete corporate whore would recognize that a population as massive (300+ million people) and diverse as ours would absolutely not all line up to take any ONE treatment, no matter what that treatment was, and work on the means to treat/protect those who inevitably would not take the pfizer product

That's common fucking sense, and what we see in non-death cult societies.

But liberal Americans can't resist being smug twats in the face of basic humanity, so here we are.


  

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Cold Truth
Member since Jan 28th 2004
42697 posts
Tue Jan-04-22 10:05 PM

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82. "You just flat out ignored most of what I said. "
In response to Reply # 80


  

          

This is significant, since I cited specific behaviors within the antivax community, as a direct response to your statement that liberals are sociopaths.

And you just sidestepped all that entirely. Cool.

There are plenty of things to address in your post but there's absolutely no point since it's clear that you're not an honest interlocutor. You're worth no more than the "smug twat" treatment you're so pissy about.

I'm good on that. Maybe I'll circle back when I'm taking a shit later, but this is as much regular time as your post is worth.

  

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kayru99
Member since Jan 26th 2004
15935 posts
Tue Jan-04-22 11:49 PM

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83. "no i didnt ignore it. I disputed your core premise"
In response to Reply # 82


          

of anti-vaxxers being solely one type of person. Pretending that they are to pat yourself on the back for NOT being that type of person is fuckshit.

But go stick your hand up your ass

  

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Cold Truth
Member since Jan 28th 2004
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Wed Jan-05-22 02:24 AM

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84. "liberals are fucking sociopath" YOU, so spare the outrage"
In response to Reply # 83
Wed Jan-05-22 02:28 AM by Cold Truth

  

          

>of anti-vaxxers being solely one type of person. Pretending
>that they are to pat yourself on the back for NOT being that
>type of person is fuckshit.
>
>But go stick your hand up your ass

I didn't say word one about what type of people they are, much less all.

YOU said that "liberals are fucking sociopath"

I pointed out the actual, tangible sociopathic behaviors exhibited by antivaxxers, as well as the ramifications of those behaviors.

I pointed out the abundance of actual sociopathic behavior coming from antivaxxers.

I neither said, nor implied, that all antivaxxers are like this.

This was in direct response to your blanket generalization that liberals are sociopaths, and nothing you said disputed that in the slightest. You sidestepped it completely.

Which shows that you're not sincere and have zero interest in any real discussion on the issue. you just want to rant. Have at it.

  

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kayru99
Member since Jan 26th 2004
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Wed Jan-05-22 11:19 AM

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87. "follow the bouncing ball"
In response to Reply # 84
Wed Jan-05-22 11:26 AM by kayru99

          

OP post: if those who don't get the vaxx die, fuck'em

Me: that's crazy as fuck

You: anti-vaxxers show these sociopathic behaviors

me:
Most people who refuse to get the vaxx aren't doing these things.
What about all these other people who don't want it for other reasons, and don't do any of that shit you mentioned?

also, since other people have many valid reasons to be suspicious of the vaxx AND we have massive pre-existing structural issues re: health care, it's detrimental to society - *sociopathic*, even - to refuse to explore other options for prevention & treatment


You:....uh i gotta go shit, you want to rant

  

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Cold Truth
Member since Jan 28th 2004
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Wed Jan-05-22 12:14 PM

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90. "Your blatant disregard for facts applies even to yourself. Bravo."
In response to Reply # 87


  

          

>OP post: if those who don't get the vaxx die, fuck'em
>
>Me: that's crazy as fuck

This is demonstrably false.

Rather than take my reply for what it is- a direct response to an blanket accusation you made, you now pretend like you said something entirely different in an attempt to frame my reply as something from left field.

You're exemplifying the same reckless disregard for facts and context you use to fuel your antivax rhetoric.

What you said, was that liberals are sociopaths.

>You: anti-vaxxers show these sociopathic behaviors

... which was a completely reasonable and contextually appropriate response to you calling liberals sociopaths within the context of this subject.

>me:
>Most people who refuse to get the vaxx aren't doing these
>things.

Yes, you took a stand against something I never said nor implied.

Bang up job there.

>What about all these other people who don't want it for other
>reasons

Their reasoning doesn't change the impact of that choice.

>and don't do any of that shit you mentioned?

Are antivaxx people overloading hospital ER's across the country, straining the system, and creating a very real problem for anyone else who needs care?

They are, and this is objectively true.

Refusing the vaccine actively contributes to the spread- and evolution- of COVID.

You know those people who can't get vaccinated for actual, diagnosed medical issues? or children too young to get the vaccine? The pro-vaxx crowd isn't putting them in danger. The antivaxx crowd is.

Again, this is objectively true- and by default, all antivaxx people do these things, because they are byproducts of the refusal to vaccinate.

Their reasons do not change the impact of that choice.

This is just an objective fact.

>also, since other people have many valid reasons to be
>suspicious of the vaxx AND we have massive pre-existing
>structural issues re: health care, it's detrimental to
>society - *sociopathic*, even - to refuse to explore other
>options for prevention & treatment

>You:....uh i gotta go shit, you want to rant

Your capacity to get so much exactly backward is incredibly alarming.

That's not what I said at all. I said I'd respond to your post if I needed to take a shit, because that's what your post was worth.

You consistently re-frame things in a contextually backward and/or inaccurate way, in order to suit your preference to live in your own reality.

  

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double negative
Member since Dec 14th 2007
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Tue Jan-04-22 01:17 PM

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66. "you instantly lose for making this about the culture war."
In response to Reply # 46


  

          

"liberals"

ok chief.

***********************************************************
https://soundcloud.com/swageyph/yph-die-with-me

  

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flipnile
Member since Nov 05th 2003
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Tue Jan-04-22 07:38 AM

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53. "Word:"
In response to Reply # 0


          

>if unvaxxed folks wanna continue to gamble with their
>bodies…then thats on them.

  

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Vex_id
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Tue Jan-04-22 12:32 PM

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60. "This ain't it."
In response to Reply # 0


          

One of the most disturbing trends of the pandemic is seeing people project unwellness onto others with reckless abandon. You see rabid anti-vax people claiming those who go the vaccine have "damaged their dna" and will inevitably develop auto-immune diseases, and even hoping that people do so their morbid prophecy can be proven correct. You also have people poking fun at unvaccinated people for having severe disease and even gloating at their deaths.

The lack of compassion is crazy. While the analogy mentioned above may not be perfect (comparing addiction to unvaccinated covid disease) - the principle is sound to me. There are far too many people who advocate for not giving medical treatment/care to those who have refused the vaccine. This is lunacy, and patently unkind/draconian.

Would we not treat someone with lung cancer who made the bad decision to smoke cigarettes their whole life? Basically just saying, 'meh. you smoked bruh. Sorry - we refuse to treat you because of your bad life choices."

Not only does this violate a physician's Hippocratic Oath (to treat any and everyone - regardless of their life decisions/condition) - but it's wildly dehumanizing. The pandemic is bad enough in itself without people trying to score points whenever there's an unvaccinated death and/or an adverse event from the vaccine.


-->

  

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Cold Truth
Member since Jan 28th 2004
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Tue Jan-04-22 01:01 PM

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64. "Do you think Covid and smoking are equal?"
In response to Reply # 60


  

          

I don't.

Even with second hand smoke, the overall risk to those around them is minimal compared to the continued spread of Covid.

Add the broader anti-vaxx sentiment to the anti-Covid vaccine sentiment, and the overall harm contribution doesn't remotely compare.

While the lung cancer comparison has *some* merit, speaking strictly in terms of compassion, it's just not on par.

Further, the general compassion fatigue experienced by the average person has nothing to do with the Hippocratic Oath of a medical professional. Unless Reeq is a doctor, I don't see how that works as a response to his post. Reeq can hold the opinion that they shouldn't be treated all the live long day, but that doesn't change the legal responsibilities of the health care system.

Conversely, antivax sentiments aren't unlike the Covid virus itself. Antivax thinking spreads and infects in much the same way.

This isn't just about someone's own life choice to smoke, or even to eat poorly, choose not to excercise, etc. It's nowhere near an apples to apples comparison IMO.

The person who contracts lung cancer, by and large, isn't spreading their cancer in a way that's contagious. So while the second hand smoke can be an issue, person A who winds up with a condition from second hand smoke isn't spreading it to others.

And the entire context of Reeq's sentiment- shared by many- isn't that they should die, or that he/we want them to die. it's that we're in a pandemic, going on two years in, with no end in sight, and plenty of people are extremely loud, proud, and active in their belief.

That belief isn't just a harm to themselves, but everyone, collectively. Compassion fatigue is quite real- and antivaxers are the active cause of that fatigue. The very sentiment people like The Mac and Kayru are so bothered about, is fostered by their own sentiments.

They are literally why such fatigue exists. Sure, it takes two. But they are the prime mover, the initiator, the driver. There's very little overlap between this and smoking or other largely personal choices regarding one's health.

That isn't to say there's not value in the idea of striving to rise above, to not give in, but that's a big ask IMO.

  

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Vex_id
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Tue Jan-04-22 01:37 PM

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68. "It's not that big of an ask for us all to wish wellness upon others"
In response to Reply # 64
Tue Jan-04-22 01:49 PM by Vex_id

          

regardless of circumstances and/or life choices.

>Even with second hand smoke, the overall risk to those around
>them is minimal compared to the continued spread of Covid.

My aunt developed lung cancer from second-hand smoke. Never smoked in her life (but her husband did) - so there is a risk and smoking is a decision that can and does place others in proximate harm. In fact: Nonsmokers who are exposed to secondhand smoke at home or at work increase their risk of developing lung cancer by 20–30%. Secondhand smoke causes more than 7,300 lung cancer deaths among U.S. nonsmokers each year. That's not negligible.

But the point isn't that this is a perfect comparison. It's not - and there is no perfect apples to apples comparison. The point is that we should at least be able to rally together to ensure that everyone can get sound medical care if they develop severe covid, whether they are vaccinated or not.

I agree with the point about rebuking egregious misinformation and lies about the vaccines - and also am frustrated by the anti-vax/fear mongering identity that is being created out of this pandemic. But we also have to look at root causes for this: massive distrust in government and institutions. And quite frankly - people aren't wrong to distrust their institutions when you look at the track record.

>And the entire context of Reeq's sentiment- shared by many-
>isn't that they should die, or that he/we want them to die.

I mean - "if they die; they die" is pretty clear lol.

I completely get being frustrated by those who are (often knowingly) peddling snake oil and disinformation (often to elevate their own status and bank accounts). What I don't get (and will never support) is wishing ill will upon those who make different personal health decisions from mine - whether that's lifestyle choices, obesity, smoking, refusing vaccination etc.


-->

  

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Cold Truth
Member since Jan 28th 2004
42697 posts
Tue Jan-04-22 02:09 PM

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72. "Lots of things are easy in a vaccuum. "
In response to Reply # 68


  

          

>regardless of circumstances and/or life choices.

That's just not true. It's easy to say, but not so simple for everyone, in practice. And this is just about the definition of extenuating circumstances.

But yes, that sounds great in a vacuum.

>>Even with second hand smoke, the overall risk to those
>around
>>them is minimal compared to the continued spread of Covid.
>
>My aunt developed lung cancer from second-hand smoke. Never
>smoked in her life (but her husband did) - so there is a risk
>and smoking is a decision that can and does place others in
>proximate harm.

I mean, I said "the overall risk to those
around them is minimal compared to the continued spread of Covid."

>But the point isn't that this is a perfect comparison.
>not - and there is no perfect apples to apples comparison.

Agreed, but there are bad comparisons, and this is one. I get the overall idea here, but there are significant contextual differences that cause it to fall apart completely.

>The point is that we should at least be able to rally together
>to ensure that everyone can get sound medical care if they
>develop severe covid, whether they are vaccinated or not.

Do we have significant examples of this not happening?

Are people, in any significant number, actually being turned away?

As far as I can tell, the sentiment expressed isn't that far from "I could just KILL____________". It's a way of expressing the depth of the emotion itself.

This certainly walks up to that line, but I don't think it crosses. "If they die, they die" is an expression of the cumulative frustration with antivax sentiment, due to the extreme nature of both the problem, and their active contribution to it.

Moreover, I addressed this very thing in my post. The base sentiments of the average person is not the same as doctors actually doing this. I'm sure there's an outlier or two out there, but I haven't seen any reports of this actually happening.

>I agree with the point about rebuking egregious misinformation
>and lies about the vaccines - and also am frustrated by the
>anti-vax/fear mongering identity that is being created out of
>this pandemic. But we also have to look at root causes for
>this: massive distrust in government and institutions. And
>quite frankly - people aren't wrong to distrust their
>institutions when you look at the track record.

I think the root cause goes deeper than that, but that's another discussion. I'll circle back to that later on, perhaps.

>>And the entire context of Reeq's sentiment- shared by many-
>>isn't that they should die, or that he/we want them to die.
>
>I mean - "if they die; they die" is pretty clear lol.

Come on. you're more reasonable than that.

Does it walk up to the line? Sure. Right at the chain link fence.

But it doesn't cross, doesn't go over or under.

There's a huge difference between actively wanting something, and being apathetic about the potential for something happening.

>I completely get being frustrated by those who are (often
>knowingly) peddling snake oil and disinformation (often to
>elevate their own status and bank accounts).

Word to that.

What I don't get
>(and will never support) is wishing ill will upon those who
>make different personal health decisions from mine - whether
>that's lifestyle choices, obesity, smoking, refusing
>vaccination etc.

This, IMO, plays into one of the most insidious problems with the antivax movement overall, and the Covid vaccine specifically, which is the idea that this is a personal decision analogous to the rest of that list.

Smoking makes at least some sense, but the broader ramifications are significantly different. If you smoke and I get lung cancer, I can't spread that lung cancer, unless I smoke myself.

But I get Covid from you, not only are the potential consequences myriad, it's contagious, and that has far greater potential to set off a much larger destructive chain.

The fact is, there's a limit to liberty. There's a reason our children are mandated to be vaccinated to go to a public school, but there is no mandatory diet, no mandate that the children's parent's don't smoke, etc. Kid A can't "catch" those other things from a classmate and spread it to others.

And that's because those things are not contagious in the way that, say, measles are. So to treat the vaccine issue from, once again, a vacuum, is extremely problematic. And while smoking is not a great analog for reasons I explained previously, it has had it's share of laws that have dramatically reduced where that can happen.

They do not exist in a vaccuum. Their body, their choice and all- but they all put other bodies in the crosshairs of that choice in a unique way, with unique ramifications.

  

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Vex_id
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Tue Jan-04-22 02:42 PM

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73. "RE: Lots of things are easy in a vaccuum. "
In response to Reply # 72
Tue Jan-04-22 02:45 PM by Vex_id

          

>This, IMO, plays into one of the most insidious problems with
>the antivax movement overall, and the Covid vaccine
>specifically, which is the idea that this is a personal
>decision analogous to the rest of that list.
>
>Smoking makes at least some sense, but the broader
>ramifications are significantly different. If you smoke and I
>get lung cancer, I can't spread that lung cancer, unless I
>smoke myself.
>
>But I get Covid from you, not only are the potential
>consequences myriad, it's contagious, and that has far greater
>potential to set off a much larger destructive chain.

Again - the smoking analogy wasn't meant to be a perfect analogy. It was made to demonstrate that it's another personal choice that can (and does) wreak havoc on others around you (whereby thousands of non-smokers die of second-hand lung cancer every year).

The problem with your logic here is that you're excluding the fact that vaccinated people are also driving a lot of transmission - so it's not as if you get vaccinated you're all of a sudden exempt from contributing to the pandemic and not a part of the problem, per se. While it's true that you're less likely to get an initial infection if vaccinated (though not to the degree as it was originally purported) and it's also true that a vaccinated body clears the virus sooner (creating a shorter window of transmission) - vaccinated (and even boosted) hosts are still getting infected and transmitting the virus at significant rates.

But if you're vaccinated - it's exceptionally rare for you to die and/or develop severe disease that leads to hospitalization. So in this regard, the unvaccinated are actually sharing the overwhelming brunt and burden of their choices here (just as smokers do despite the fact that they still wreak havoc to those around them).

>The fact is, there's a limit to liberty. There's a reason our
>children are mandated to be vaccinated to go to a public
>school, but there is no mandatory diet, no mandate that the
>children's parent's don't smoke, etc. Kid A can't "catch"
>those other things from a classmate and spread it to others.

Agreed. While I do think that mandates present serious constitutional (and civil liberty) issues - those who often talk about personal liberty and "My body my choice" (while incidentally denying a woman's right to an abortion) refuse to accept the fact that there are responsibilities that come with liberties.


-->

  

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The Mac
Member since Feb 11th 2008
1488 posts
Tue Jan-04-22 05:44 PM

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75. "RE: Lots of things are easy in a vaccuum. "
In response to Reply # 73


          


>
>The problem with your logic here is that you're excluding the
>fact that vaccinated people are also driving a lot of
>transmission - so it's not as if you get vaccinated you're all
>of a sudden exempt from contributing to the pandemic and not a
>part of the problem, per se. While it's true that you're less
>likely to get an initial infection if vaccinated (though not
>to the degree as it was originally purported) and it's also
>true that a vaccinated body clears the virus sooner (creating
>a shorter window of transmission) - vaccinated (and even
>boosted) hosts are still getting infected and transmitting the
>virus at significant rates.
>


THATS THE ONLY THING THAT MATTERS RIGHT NOW. THE VACCINE IS NOT STOPPING TRANSMISSION - this is proven in the clinical trials, in the studies, and is CLEAR AS DAY from the daily data all over the world.

You are arguing yourselves in circles but the SIMPLE FACT IS THAT IT DOESNT STOP TRANSMISSION so I AM NOT HELPING YOU OR ANYBODY ELSE BY GETTING VACCINATED.

Once we can get past that all the other shit means little. THE VACCINE ISNT WORKING. SIMPLE.

Cause I'm doing better now, don't mean I never lost shit/ I was married to a state of mind and I divorced it -- Black Thought

  

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Brew
Member since Nov 23rd 2002
21756 posts
Tue Jan-04-22 06:03 PM

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77. "That is literally not the only thing that matters."
In response to Reply # 75


          

This is an impossibly stupid post.

----------------------------------------

"Fuck aliens." © WarriorPoet415

  

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Mynoriti
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Tue Jan-04-22 08:25 PM

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78. "bullhorn in the park guy over here"
In response to Reply # 75


  

          

  

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kayru99
Member since Jan 26th 2004
15935 posts
Tue Jan-04-22 09:58 PM

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81. "yuuup. "
In response to Reply # 75


          

  

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mikediggz
Member since Dec 02nd 2003
9584 posts
Wed Jan-05-22 10:43 AM

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86. "but its not just about transmission. the more ppl that get vaxxed,"
In response to Reply # 75


  

          

the more ppl who probably wont DIE from the disease...thats a big piece of info youre sweeping under the rug

  

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Cold Truth
Member since Jan 28th 2004
42697 posts
Wed Jan-05-22 11:36 AM

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88. "^^^^ is a huge reason why this sentiment exists. "
In response to Reply # 75
Wed Jan-05-22 11:39 AM by Cold Truth

  

          

>>The problem with your logic here is that you're excluding
>the
>>fact that vaccinated people are also driving a lot of
>>transmission - so it's not as if you get vaccinated you're
>all
>>of a sudden exempt from contributing to the pandemic and not
>a
>>part of the problem, per se.

This. This is why people are throwing up their hands with you and yours.

Because you have a strong tendency to get this issue exactly backward.

Nobody is saying, we're vaxxed, we can't get or transmit the virus.

That's not it at all. This is particularly glaring since THEY DO UNDERSTAND what the vaccination means, as you quoted below:

While it's true that you're
>less
>>likely to get an initial infection if vaccinated (though not
>>to the degree as it was originally purported) and it's also
>>true that a vaccinated body clears the virus sooner
>(creating
>>a shorter window of transmission)-

....all of which results in a massive net positive in the fight against this fucking thing.

All of which is proof positive of the reason to get vaccinated.

vaccinated (and even
>>boosted) hosts are still getting infected and transmitting
>the
>>virus at significant rates.

....but then you turn around and drop this nonsense.

Yes, vaccinated people contract and transmit the virus- but the likelihood and severity are significantly reduced. Which is something they laid out in their post, yet still comes back to this.

Vaccines aren't brick walls against the virus. This especially true when large portions of the population, such as yourself and kayru, refuse the vaccine. The overall efficacy of vaccines depends heavily on mass participation, which you and yours are hellbent on preventing.

Vaccines decrease transmission- a fact that they explained.
Which means that the more people who vaccinate, the less people get infected.

The more people are vaccinated, the less severe the infections that do happen.
Which means less strain on the health care system.

The more porous the defense, the more infections get through, and the worse those infections are.

But nope, you and yours choose to flaunt your disregard for this basic fact.

YOU ARE LITERALLY THE PROBLEM.

>THATS THE ONLY THING THAT MATTERS RIGHT NOW. THE VACCINE IS
>NOT STOPPING TRANSMISSION - this is proven in the clinical
>trials, in the studies, and is CLEAR AS DAY from the daily
>data all over the world.

>You are arguing yourselves in circles but the SIMPLE FACT IS
>THAT IT DOESNT STOP TRANSMISSION so I AM NOT HELPING YOU OR
>ANYBODY ELSE BY GETTING VACCINATED.

This is demonstrably false. What's mind blowing, is that the reasons why this is false is in the very quote you just cosigned.

Which is why people are saying, fuck em, if they die, they die.
Because you cannot get out of the way of your own ignorance.

Y'all are on a mission to earn Darwin Awards en masse- but want empathy when you're disproportionately impacted by the virus.

>Once we can get past that all the other shit means little. THE
>VACCINE ISNT WORKING. SIMPLE.

No, your ability to properly understand what a vaccine does- and doesn't- do, among other things, isn't working.

You and yours have this exactly backward.
That's on you.
We are not the villains for being sick and goddamned tired of your own willful ignorance.

  

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Vex_id
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Wed Jan-05-22 12:13 PM

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89. "you're advocating for a lack of nuance."
In response to Reply # 88


          

and who are the 'you and yours' and 'they' that you're referring to?

One of the most unproductive things we can do when adding to this conversation is start to draw lines and denigrate "the other" - contributing yet to another culture war -- especially when it's not necessary to do so.

Yes there are some flagrant anti-vaxxers pushing disinformation that need to be called out. But not all people who refuse a vaccination fit neatly into these hyperbolic caricatures that is being drummed up.

Ultimately it comes down to strategy and principle. I point to a nation like Japan as an exemplary model on how to approach the subject.

~80% of Japan is fully vaccinated, and the government has strongly encouraged all citizens to get vaccinated.

However - the Japanese government has made it clear that getting vaccinated is a personal choice – and warns the public not to "discriminate" against those who choose not to:

"Although we encourage all citizens to receive the Covid-19 vaccination, it is not compulsory or mandatory," a notice on the Ministry of Health website reads.

"Vaccination will be given only with the consent of the person to be vaccinated after the information provided. Please get vaccinated of your own decision, understanding both the effectiveness in preventing infectious diseases and the risk of side effects."

"Vaccines will never be administered without the recipient's consent," it says.

"We urge the public never to coerce vaccinations at the workplace or upon others around them, and never to treat those who have not received the vaccine in a discriminatory manner."

Source: https://japan.kantei.go.jp/ongoingtopics/vaccine.html

Incidentally, Japan is a world leader in maintaining low Covid case-counts and mitigating spread - and they are doing it by persuading its citizens with science, compassion, and respect -- not coercion and vilifying "the other". It is human nature (particularly in a country like the U.S.) to want to resist something that is mandated to you on a compulsory basis. It's not sound strategy to do this in a country that has enshrined individual rights into its constitutional framework. It backfires; it achieves less vaccinated protection.

vaccinated (and even
>>boosted) hosts are still getting infected and transmitting
>the
>>virus at significant rates.

>>....but then you turn around and drop this nonsense.<<

How is this 'nonsense'? That's just a factual statement -- which requires context like this:

<<Yes, vaccinated people contract and transmit the virus- but the likelihood and severity are significantly reduced.>>

That's literally what I said.

Look: If we can't have a nuanced and factual discussion then what's the point? We don't have to pretend that breakthrough infections aren't happening at relatively high rates (they are) - nor do we have to overly defend Pfizer and Moderna and act like the vaccines are perfectly calibrated for Omicron (they aren't). We also don't have to reflexively defend the CDC when it fucks up (which it's done multiple times over the course of the pandemic).

That doesn't mean that the vaccines aren't important (they are) at preventing severe outcomes and death.

I'm always perplexed at how critics of the vaccines singularly focus on severe adverse events from vaccination (often by citing non-scrutinized VAERS reporting) - but never acknowledge the damage done by the virus itself that is obviously significantly more destructive and deadly. But it's also perplexing as to how staunch defenders of all things vaccine find it difficult to acknowledge that the vaccines haven't been the god-send they were purported to be, and never want to emphasize the need for informed consent and raise the bar for safety profiles of vaccines (particularly from Big Pharma which has consistently demonstrated its neglect for public health).

My point is: This is a complicated issue that becomes even more complicated when we immediately draw lines in the sand and adopt "sides" to where we just argue all day with no common ground; no nuance.

The vaccines work. They are important tools - albeit imperfect tools. More focus needs to be on treatments. We won't boost our way out of this (particularly when too much of the world is still without their first doses). Informed consent is important. Respecting each other and having good will for each other is perhaps more important than ever in a public health crisis.

We can hold multiple ideas in our minds at once, can't we?




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Cold Truth
Member since Jan 28th 2004
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Wed Jan-05-22 12:33 PM

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91. "Absolutely not. "
In response to Reply # 89
Wed Jan-05-22 12:42 PM by Cold Truth

  

          

>and who are the 'you and yours' and 'they' that you're
>referring to?

What an obtuse question. I'm talking to an antivaxxer about antivaxxers.

Sorry, but asking me who I'm referring to is a flat out stupid question.

>One of the most unproductive things we can do when adding to
>this conversation is start to draw lines and denigrate "the
>other" - contributing yet to another culture war -- especially
>when it's not necessary to do so.

one of the people I'm talking to called liberals sociopaths- but I'm creating the other? FOH. And, frankly, your devils advocate, can't we all just get along routine here is nothing but an enabler.

You're approaching me, trying to chastize me, as though I'm talking to two honest interlocutors. I'm not.

>Yes there are some flagrant anti-vaxxers pushing
>disinformation that need to be called out. But not all people
>who refuse a vaccination fit neatly into these hyperbolic
>caricatures that is being drummed up.

The two loud antivaxers in this post are absolutely within that caricature.

>Ultimately it comes down to strategy and principle. I point
>to a nation like Japan as an exemplary model on how to
>approach the subject.
>
>~80% of Japan is fully vaccinated, and the government has
>strongly encouraged all citizens to get vaccinated.

Sounds like they're not contending with anything resembling the sizable, loud, zealous, antivax populace we have here. Good for them.

>However - the Japanese government has made it clear that
>getting vaccinated is a personal choice – and warns the
>public not to "discriminate" against those who choose not to:

Who is actually being discriminated against here, and in what ways?

>"Although we encourage all citizens to receive the Covid-19
>vaccination, it is not compulsory or mandatory," a notice on
>the Ministry of Health website reads.
>
>"Vaccination will be given only with the consent of the person
>to be vaccinated after the information provided. Please get
>vaccinated of your own decision, understanding both the
>effectiveness in preventing infectious diseases and the risk
>of side effects."
>
>"Vaccines will never be administered without the recipient's
>consent," it says.
>
>"We urge the public never to coerce vaccinations at the
>workplace or upon others around them, and never to treat those
>who have not received the vaccine in a discriminatory
>manner."
>
>Source: https://japan.kantei.go.jp/ongoingtopics/vaccine.html

Are vaccines being administered with people's consent?
This is downright bizarre.


>Incidentally, Japan is a world leader in maintaining low Covid
>case-counts and mitigating spread - and they are doing it by
>persuading its citizens with science, compassion, and respect
>-- not coercion and vilifying "the other".

Cool. How's that approach working here in the states?

How about this: instead of getting on my case for not meeting your standards of dealing with antivaxxers, how about YOU fucking do that shit. I don't see you in here trying to persuade kayru or Mac with science, compassion, and respect.

So give them that and let's see how that plays out. if they get the shot as a result of your compassion and respect, win-win for everyone.

But you're NOT in here doing that. You're too busy trying to chasten everyone else.

It is human nature
>(particularly in a country like the U.S.) to want to resist
>something that is mandated to you on a compulsory basis. It's
>not sound strategy to do this in a country that has enshrined
>individual rights into its constitutional framework. It
>backfires; it achieves less vaccinated protection.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Like I said, you're not in here dealing with that.
Put your money where your mouth is.

>vaccinated (and even
>>>boosted) hosts are still getting infected and transmitting
>>the
>>>virus at significant rates.
>
>>>....but then you turn around and drop this nonsense.<<
>
>How is this 'nonsense'? That's just a factual statement --
>which requires context like this:
>
><<Yes, vaccinated people contract and transmit the virus- but
>the likelihood and severity are significantly reduced.>>
>
>That's literally what I said.

It's like you didn't read the rest of the post. You've consistently ignored context throughout these discussions, and I've been rather charitable with that, but no more. You're doing it again now- interestingly enough, you chose to use a quote from yourself, and not the full quote that I was responding to when I said that.

>Look: If we can't have a nuanced and factual discussion then
>what's the point?

Oh we absolutely can- and I AM having that discussion. But what you did above is more nonsense.

We don't have to pretend that breakthrough
>infections aren't happening at relatively high rates (they
>are)

I'm not, so I don't know who "we" is.

I've consistently said that the vaccine reduces the overall likelihood and severity, and that's it's not a brick wall- ahem, nuance- and you've consistently replied to me as though I'm saying it is.

Where the nuance there, on your part?

- nor do we have to overly defend Pfizer and Moderna and
>act like the vaccines are perfectly calibrated for Omicron
>(they aren't).

Where am I "overly defending Pfizer and Moderna and acting like vaccines are perfectly calibrated for Omicron?

Your post is littered with strawmen, yet you're telling me that I'm advocating for no nuance? Bullshit.

We also don't have to reflexively defend the
>CDC when it fucks up (which it's done multiple times over the
>course of the pandemic).

Where am I doing that in here? Yeah I'm good on this w/you.

It's wild that you're trying to lecture me about nuanced discussion, being civil, etc, and yet you're taking me to task for shit I'm not doing. I'm not going to bother with the rest of your reply because you're doing the exact thing you're trying (incorrectly) to chastise me for.

  

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Vex_id
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92. "Yea - let's bow out and agree to disagree"
In response to Reply # 91


          

You replied by conflating multiple people's quotes into your response as if "they" are all the same and from the same ideological camp. Not surprising this got derailed.

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Cold Truth
Member since Jan 28th 2004
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Wed Jan-05-22 01:06 PM

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93. "100% incorrect."
In response to Reply # 92
Wed Jan-05-22 01:10 PM by Cold Truth

  

          

>You replied by conflating multiple people's quotes into your
>response as if "they" are all the same and from the same
>ideological camp. Not surprising this got derailed.

This is demonstrably false.

-I replied to his quote of kayrus post AND I FUCKING SAID THIS IN THE POST.

Several times, in fact, i referred to the quote and attributed it to “they” and “them”- acknowledging that i was replying to the quote.

I also said, specifically, that he-The Mac- had cosigned the quote. There's ine part where i said “then you drop this nonsense”, but any reasonable and charitable eeading of this minor mistake would know that i had already made it clear that i knew i was replying to a quote.

I repeatedly referrenced the fact that I was replying to his quote of kayru- and then i address his- The Mac’s- own words seperately.

> Not surprising this got derailed.

Agreed. I pointed out above that you saddled me with strawmen, not to mention your consistent and contextually obtuse replies, and i pointed out here that you're demonstrably wrong about me conflating two separate quotes.

And yet, you say this as though you're not a significant contributor to said derailment.

It's weird, 100% of your charitable listening and compassion lies on the antivaxx side of this discussion, while you exhibit absolutely NONE of that toward those of us on the other side of that discussion, myself in particular.

You have objectively demonstrated that you are not a sincere interlocutor in here. You're too invested in this devils advocate bullshit to see any of that.

Next time you want to spit all that shit about Japan, take a look in the motherfucking mirror.

  

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Vex_id
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Wed Jan-05-22 01:12 PM

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95. "RE: 100% incorrect."
In response to Reply # 93
Wed Jan-05-22 01:14 PM by Vex_id

          

>>You replied by conflating multiple people's quotes into
>your
>>response as if "they" are all the same and from the same
>>ideological camp. Not surprising this got derailed.
>
>This is demonstrably false.
>
>-I replied to his quote of kayrus post AND I FUCKING SAID THIS
>IN THE POST.
>
>Several times, in fact, i referred to the quote and attributed
>it to “they” and “them”- acknowledging that i was
>replying to the quote.

You also included some rando quotes of mine in there (without adding the context I outlined) - so it was an attempt to misconstrue.

But I still stand by what I said: it's not helpful to try and just marginalize kayru, The Mac, or anyone else and lump them into a 'they' category. They have their own individual ideas on this, and their ideas likely vary significantly - just as our ideas vary significantly.

btw: I enjoyed the exchange. But we've exhausted the discussion.

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Cold Truth
Member since Jan 28th 2004
42697 posts
Wed Jan-05-22 01:28 PM

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97. "No, I didn't "attempt" to misconstrue anything. "
In response to Reply # 95
Wed Jan-05-22 01:45 PM by Cold Truth

  

          

>>>You replied by conflating multiple people's quotes into
>>your
>>>response as if "they" are all the same and from the same
>>>ideological camp. Not surprising this got derailed.
>>
>>This is demonstrably false.
>>
>>-I replied to his quote of kayrus post AND I FUCKING SAID
>THIS
>>IN THE POST.
>>
>>Several times, in fact, i referred to the quote and
>attributed
>>it to “they” and “them”- acknowledging that i was
>>replying to the quote.
>
>You also included some rando quotes of mine in there (without
>adding the context I outlined) - so it was an attempt to
>misconstrue.

Wrong. I replied to the information within that post.

I'll say it again: you're blinded by your desire to take up for kayru and The Mac, and that is heavily influencing the way you respond to me.

>But I still stand by what I said: it's not helpful to try and
>just marginalize kayru, The Mac, or anyone else and lump them
>into a 'they' category.

I'm responding to THEM and the things THEY are saying.

The "you and yours" bit is addressing the objective effect that antivaxxers are having on this situation.

This is objective and is not at all saddling them with additional baggage beyond that.

They have their own individual ideas
>on this, and their ideas likely vary significantly

That's what I'm responding to.

The only person in this equation saddling anyone with baggage that isn't theirs, is you, in your replies to me, as with the strawmen I pointed out above.

>btw: I enjoyed the exchange. But we've exhausted the
>discussion.

I did, up until that last one. It genuinely pissed me off. To that end, I do appreciate your effort to still keep a reasonable discussion going even after I turned it up in terms of my tone.

But I think I've made several objectively true points in terms of your tact toward me, and I don't think I'm guilty of otherising them in the way you've said. I can back up a bit and say that, being charitable, it's probable that no malice was intended, but it became a frustrating point in the discussion nonetheless.

Time and again I addressed the specific things they've said, and whenever I touched on the broader points of what antivax sentiment does, it's been within the context of a response to their own statements.

My only dog in this particular fight is, all the empathy seems to be on the side of the antivaxers, with little to none on the side of those of us who are just plain exhausted with it. IMO, "if they die, they die", is exhaustion speaking. It's throwing up our hands and saying fuck it, not because we're sociopaths or want to otherise people, but because this shit is incredibly exhausting and frustrating to deal with.

  

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Vex_id
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Wed Jan-05-22 02:30 PM

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99. "Everyone is exhausted at this point of this pandemic. "
In response to Reply # 97
Wed Jan-05-22 02:32 PM by Vex_id

          

Nerves are on edge. Many of us know people who have personally been affected; some who have lost their lives. Many of us are carrying disproportionate amounts of stress coupled with uncertainty about the future, economic conditions, our own job safety, family cohesion, physical/mental health challenges, spiritual crises etc...

If I'm going out of my way to defend anything - it's each other. We've got to have each other's back -- regardless of vaccine status. It's so much harder going through this when we refuse to have reverence for each other; when we come across each other in public and glare as if we are viral threats -- rebuking any connection.

Yes - it's enraging to see how some people are reckless. I know too many people who are indifferent and in denial about the pandemic -- knowingly carrying this virus into spaces where it spreads rapidly (and unfortunately to elders and immunocompromised who don't fare well with it). This is malicious. I know people who gloat when an unvaccinated person dies. This is heartless. We are all better than this. I just don't think we solve it by adding to the fire and advocating for people to lose their rights/livelihoods - increasing tensions/stress and social unrest. (Note: I'm not referring to you here specifically; speaking of my general observations)

I hope you and yours are doing well and continue to thrive.

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Brew
Member since Nov 23rd 2002
21756 posts
Wed Jan-05-22 03:08 PM

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100. "Imagine being "exhausted" but not doing the bare minimum to help end ..."
In response to Reply # 99
Wed Jan-05-22 03:36 PM by Brew

          

.. the thing that's allegedly "exhausting" you.

Complete and total idiocy. These people have the same information and data available to them that we do. They no longer deserve our patience or common decency. The responsible among us only continue to be exhausted because of *their* horrible, irresponsible decisions. And *they* continue to be exhausted because of their own bullshit, too.

No one to blame for their alleged "exhaustion" but themselves. As is typical with that demographic (repugs, mostly), they are their own worst enemies.

----------------------------------------

"Fuck aliens." © WarriorPoet415

  

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Vex_id
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Thu Jan-06-22 04:24 PM

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137. "I just don't regard the unvaccinated as being complicit in murder"
In response to Reply # 100


          

and because of how effective the vaccines are at preventing severe outcomes/death - they (the unvaccinated) are carrying the brunt and burden of their decisions in the event they don't fare well with Covid. So I simply don't feel a need to further condemn.

And again (as I stated by pointing to how Japan is handling this) - I think it comes down to strategy. I don't think our current hyper censorship, "you're dead to me if you don't get the vaccine" mentality actually helps us secure a more stable society/public health environment. It creates anti-vaxx warriors left and right. We are in a general environment where people are becoming radicalized en masse - and part of it is because we are rebuking someone like Robert Malone, banning him from Twitter, and making him a martyr to where he's far more influential than he otherwise would be. Why not simply have him on legacy media to welcome heterodox/mainstream debate to expose erroneous views instead of creating echo chambers (that exist both in legacy media and alt media)?

It's a different conversation to have -- but I don't think the answer to combat misinformation is to marginalize, censor, drive underground and take away rights/jobs - unless of course we want to fuel further radicalization.

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Mynoriti
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Thu Jan-06-22 05:02 PM

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141. "I respect where your're coming from but, i just don't know the answer"
In response to Reply # 137


  

          

..as CT pointed out earlier, the commentary is always skewed towards why can't the vaccinated people be more empathetic towards the people who chose not to be vaccinated. But it seems they want to be both the aggressors and victims at the same time. From the passive "i have my reasons/its my body" person to the one aggressively spreading misinformation, to the person spitting on the walmart clerk for asking them to wear a mask. they're the ones actively making everything worse for not only themselves but everyone else, for reasons articulated ad-nauseum throughout this post.

I'm pretty uncomfortable with the whole deplatofming/censoring thing even though i understand it... and yeah, I think liberals laughing at unvaxxed people dying (i've seen it alot too) is shitbird behavior, but throwing your hands up, or the exhausted 'fuck it, die then' is perfectly human reaction at this juncture. even if it's not exactly productive

but even with that, the body count of this pandemic isn't a result of liberals being mean. If there's anything that makes me feel bad for much of the unvaxxed population is that they're fooled by (again...overwhelmingly vaccinated/boosted) pundits and politicians egging them that this is some kind of freedom fight, and many are giving their lives and orphaning their kids for nothing.

it reminds me of the exhaustive narrative of pointing out half the country voted for Trump so it's on the people who didn't vote for him need to be more understanding and empathetic towards them. and that would be great if it actually went both ways. If/when repubs win big in 22/24 your're not gonna see Tucker Carlson/Fox/Ted Cruz, the national review or even Rogan or Tulsi Gabbard saying, hey we need to realize half he country voted against this. It's 100% gonna be suck it liberals, no one likes you.

i'm all for civility in a general sense but i can skim even this post and throw my hands up and say, yeah nevermind on just that alone lol.

  

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Brew
Member since Nov 23rd 2002
21756 posts
Thu Jan-06-22 05:10 PM

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142. "Yep exactly."
In response to Reply # 141


          

I was about to respond to your point about throwing up your hands being non-productive but then you covered it lol. We try being productive, look at this fucking post ! CT is going point by point, with endless evidence, but no matter how thoroughly peer-reviewed and evidence-based, willfully (or maybe not) ignorant folks like The Mac will just continue beating the drum of misinformation, even repeating things that CT and others just *directly* refuted.

It's mindblowing.


>..as CT pointed out earlier, the commentary is always skewed
>towards why can't the vaccinated people be more empathetic
>towards the people who chose not to be vaccinated. But it
>seems they want to be both the aggressors and victims at the
>same time. From the passive "i have my reasons/its my body"
>person to the one aggressively spreading misinformation, to
>the person spitting on the walmart clerk for asking them to
>wear a mask. they're the ones actively making everything worse
>for not only themselves but everyone else, for reasons
>articulated ad-nauseum throughout this post.
>
>I'm pretty uncomfortable with the whole deplatofming/censoring
>thing even though i understand it... and yeah, I think
>liberals laughing at unvaxxed people dying (i've seen it alot
>too) is shitbird behavior, but throwing your hands up, or the
>exhausted 'fuck it, die then' is perfectly human reaction at
>this juncture. even if it's not exactly productive
>
>but even with that, the body count of this pandemic isn't a
>result of liberals being mean. If there's anything that makes
>me feel bad for much of the unvaxxed population is that
>they're fooled by (again...overwhelmingly vaccinated/boosted)
>pundits and politicians egging them that this is some kind of
>freedom fight, and many are giving their lives and orphaning
>their kids for nothing.
>
>it reminds me of the exhaustive narrative of pointing out half
>the country voted for Trump so it's on the people who didn't
>vote for him need to be more understanding and empathetic
>towards them. and that would be great if it actually went both
>ways. If/when repubs win big in 22/24 your're not gonna see
>Tucker Carlson/Fox/Ted Cruz, the national review or even Rogan
>or Tulsi Gabbard saying, hey we need to realize half he
>country voted against this. It's 100% gonna be suck it
>liberals, no one likes you.
>
>i'm all for civility in a general sense but i can skim even
>this post and throw my hands up and say, yeah nevermind on
>just that alone lol.

----------------------------------------

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Vex_id
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147. "RE: I respect where your're coming from but, i just don't know the answe..."
In response to Reply # 141


          

>..as CT pointed out earlier, the commentary is always skewed
>towards why can't the vaccinated people be more empathetic
>towards the people who chose not to be vaccinated.

If that's the emphasis of my commentary in here it's only because of the direction of the conversation (and the OP) -- but I hear you. There's also of course an egregious lack of empathy of those who have no regard for spreading Covid, and also to those who project unwellness on the vaccinated (I see this a lot) - projecting that they are going to have auto-immune diseases - or even worse - surmising that their DNA has been permanently altered from taking these vaccines. Not only is this hyper fear-mongering (which incidentally is what a lot of anti-vaxxers accuse others of) - but it's not even remotely evidence-based.

But I think this lack of empathy is contagious (no pun intended). When somebody feels their humanity and/or personal autonomy is being violated, they are likely to lash right back out - which is why I think if the goal is to get more people vaccinated, the last thing you want to do is chastise, condemn, and wish ill upon the unvaccinated -- which will only result in more resistance and refusal to find commonality in public health goals.

>but even with that, the body count of this pandemic isn't a
>result of liberals being mean. If there's anything that makes
>me feel bad for much of the unvaxxed population is that
>they're fooled by (again...overwhelmingly vaccinated/boosted)
>pundits and politicians egging them that this is some kind of
>freedom fight, and many are giving their lives and orphaning
>their kids for nothing.

Agreed. It is ironic that many of the authorities/pundits cited to bolster anti-vaccine claims are from those who have in fact taken the vaccine - as you point out. Fox News literally has a vaccine policy that they enforce as their pundits are railing on against those exact policies.



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Cold Truth
Member since Jan 28th 2004
42697 posts
Thu Jan-06-22 05:43 PM

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144. "^^^Thinks Miyagi Do is the only way"
In response to Reply # 137


  

          

>and because of how effective the vaccines are at preventing
>severe outcomes/death - they (the unvaccinated) are carrying
>the brunt and burden of their decisions in the event they
>don't fare well with Covid. So I simply don't feel a need to
>further condemn.

The fact that they're bearing the brunt of the consequences of their ignorance- let's just call it what is- doesn't matter in the least.

If it ONLY impacted them and had no impact on those around them, then yes, you'd have an excellent point.

But they do not exist in a vacuum.

They impact everyone from the healthcare system itself, to other, non-COVID related patients who are experiencing the strain caused by the AV folks, to frontline workers of ALL stripes- from cashiers to uber drivers to youfuckingnameit.

But there's so much more. Their loved ones, for example. Schools. Workplaces. All this shit is impacted, regardless of whether their getting the worst of it in terms of the actual, physical consequences.

There are plenty of good, reasonable, malice and judgment free reasons to condemn a hell of a lot more.

>And again (as I stated by pointing to how Japan is handling
>this) - I think it comes down to strategy. I don't think our
>current hyper censorship, "you're dead to me if you don't get
>the vaccine" mentality actually helps us secure a more stable
>society/public health environment.

As I said- put your money where your mouth is.

Why aren't your posts in here showing all the compassion and understanding approach to giving them the good science?

Instead, you're taking aim at the pro-vax, "fuck it, fuck em" crowd.

>It creates anti-vaxx
>warriors left and right.

This argument does not hold. We are *reacting*to the warriors that already existed. We're not creating them.

We're not further radicalizing them.
We're not doing any of that.

But again- you can show us the error in our way by walking the walk and demonstrating the apparent magic in yours.

But you're not doing that.
>We are in a general environment
>where people are becoming radicalized en masse - and part of
>it is because we are rebuking someone like Robert Malone,
>banning him from Twitter, and making him a martyr to where
>he's far more influential than he otherwise would be.

NO.

Reacting to the thing that already existed isn't the creation of that thing- because, again, it already existed.

>Why not
>simply have him on legacy media to welcome
>heterodox/mainstream debate to expose erroneous views instead
>of creating echo chambers (that exist both in legacy media and
>alt media)?

Because you don't give that shit a platform, that's why.
And again- why are you doing most of your work with us, instead of proving your hypothesis with the kayru and The Mac?

Show us the way, Vex.

>It's a different conversation to have -- but I don't think the
>answer to combat misinformation is to marginalize, censor,
>drive underground and take away rights/jobs- unless of course
>we want to fuel further radicalization.

Cool. What's the solution then?

because those things you mentioned are reactions to the radicalization that already exists. They're already radicalized. "further" radicalization doesn't really amount to much.

Strip this shit down to bare bones:

-They already believe what they believe.

-They already cherry pick facts and data, often ignoring contextual elements that dramatically reframe said facts.

i.e, the whole "vaccines aren't stopping transmission" thing.

Sure, it's true. Sure, it's a fact.

But ignores other, tangential facts, in order to bolster the absolute lie that getting vaccinated doesn't help anyone- a falsehood that is exposed by those tangential facts.

But believing that lie "more", doesn't really amount to much more. They still believe what they already believed.

An it's high fucking time we stop making making it the fault of the reaction to the thing that already exists, an start dealing with the thing that already exists.

So, again, since you say this is all about that strategy, stop trying to chastise those of us who've thrown up our hands.

Stop trying to chastise the strategies deployed to combat this lunacy.

Start employing your proposed Miyagi-Do strategy. Show us the way.

You haven't really done that in here.

  

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Mynoriti
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Thu Jan-06-22 07:43 PM

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145. "that subject line fits so well"
In response to Reply # 144


  

          

cheers, man

  

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Vex_id
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148. "So you think your line of thinking achieves more vaccination?"
In response to Reply # 144
Fri Jan-07-22 01:04 PM by Vex_id

          

If you want to just critique all day long and lambast anti-vaxxers - that's cool - do you. But does it achieve the purported goal of protecting the population and achieving higher vaccination rates? No.

It's simply human nature to want to dig your heels in the sand when somebody is telling you that you *must* do something, instead of appealing to your humanity to persuade you to consider something (which is what Japan is doing and is being wildly successful at).

So if you just want to blast off and vent, enjoy. But don't pretend like you're contributing to a safer public health environment and/or achieving more vaccination. That rah-rah ain't convincing anyone to change their mind. You first have to display a respect for someone's personal agency in making the decision.

Note: I'm not talking about the rabid anti-vaxxers here. Their minds won't be changed regardless - but the approach you're using is turning off otherwise reasonable minds who - believe it or not - are still on the fence and observing how these vaccines are performing. Some of them may yet still decide to take the more efficacious vaccines - but probably not if they feel like you're not respecting their autonomy to make that decision and throwing them all in the lunatic box.

-->

  

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Cold Truth
Member since Jan 28th 2004
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Fri Jan-07-22 02:15 PM

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150. "Blah, blah, blah. Go be a youth pastor somewhere"
In response to Reply # 148
Fri Jan-07-22 02:16 PM by Cold Truth

  

          

Your “do as I say/never mind that I'm not doing it myself” schtick might work there

If you were really about that cumbaya approach, YOU’D BE FUCKING DOING IT.

Work that magic with Kayru and Max and get back to me.

Show us the way or shut the fuck up with your bullshit chastisement, because you're not doing any of the shit you're talking about.

You're demonstrably disingenuous and nothing you've done in here has accomplished any of the things you're talking about.

Also, This isn't the first time me and Mac have had it out on this subject. It's impassioned on both ends and i hate to burst your bubble here, but he's fucking thanked me for my approach with him each time.

And when he has me on a point, i acknowledge it. I.e, the additional Pfizer trial data above. You dont do that shit, but I do.


Why? Because active listening. I give him the respect of directly addressing the things he's saying. Whether or not i convince him doesn't mean it isn't a fruitful discussion.

Moreover, for everytime a self righteous prick like you tries to yell me how i should or shouldnt approach something, someone else tells me the exact opposite. And in this case is no different.

You're trying to build a bridge in one direction, while it's nothing but deaf ears on the other side- which demonstrates that you have no interest in building actual bridges. Hell, you refuse to directly address anything that I’ve said to you.

You’ve got blinders on don't even know it, and you've proven yourself less worth talking to about this than the antivax heads.

You can proceed with your usual smug, self righteous, milquetoast bullshit reply that wont directly address anything I say, while pretending you have the right toolset to build bridges. Im off this train with you.

  

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Vex_id
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151. "you sound pretty tough on the internet."
In response to Reply # 150


          

Rarely does that translate in real life.

Hope it works out for you.

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Cold Truth
Member since Jan 28th 2004
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Fri Jan-07-22 02:55 PM

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154. "LMAO way to build that bridge"
In response to Reply # 151


  

          

>Rarely does that translate in real life.

It’s telling that you took this tact
It illustrates perfectly everything ive said about you
You aren’t actually about any of the shit you're spitting in here. False as they come.

  

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Vex_id
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155. "lol I'm not interested in building bridges to everyone"
In response to Reply # 154


          

just as you can't build bridges with rabid anti-vaxxers set in their ways on this topic, you can't build bridges with arrogant know-it-alls who tell people to 'shut the fuck up' when they disagree, like a tiny child.

I thought you were done though?

-->

  

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Cold Truth
Member since Jan 28th 2004
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Fri Jan-07-22 03:21 PM

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157. "Oh I know. That was obvious- but you're pretending otherwise. "
In response to Reply # 155


  

          

This isn't up for debate.

All your bullshit preaching up there was you telling me exactly that.
You don't need to utter the phrase "build a bridge" to convey that message, and that's exactly what you did.

Only, it was just talk. Your actions were doing something else.

>just as you can't build bridges with rabid anti-vaxxers set
>in their ways on this topic, you can't build bridges with
>arrogant know-it-alls who tell people to 'shut the fuck up'
>when they disagree, like a tiny child.

I didn't tell you to shut the fuck up over a disagreement.

I told you to shut the fuck up because you kept doing that same bullshit that I've been calling you on, in a much more civil manner.

And I'm done attempting any sort of reasonable discussion with you, because you're anything but. You're fake as fuck and I'll tell you that until I see fit to bow out of that too.

  

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Vex_id
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Fri Jan-07-22 03:29 PM

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158. "when you've got to resort to lame insults - you've already lost"
In response to Reply # 157


          


>I told you to shut the fuck up because you kept doing that
>same bullshit that I've been calling you on, in a much more
>civil manner.

maybe it hasn't occurred to you that you're not the arbiter of what people can or can't say/think? You're more interested in flexing on people than sharing anything meaningful - on a message board. Lame AF.

>And I'm done attempting any sort of reasonable discussion with
>you, because you're anything but. You're fake as fuck and I'll
>tell you that until I see fit to bow out of that too.

I wouldn't presume to know anything about you to the point where I could comment on your character -- I'll leave that low self-esteem childish shit to you. You're quite adept at it.


-->

  

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Cold Truth
Member since Jan 28th 2004
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Fri Jan-07-22 03:34 PM

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159. "yeah, that's bullshit too lmao. But carry on with the canned retorts"
In response to Reply # 158
Fri Jan-07-22 03:38 PM by Cold Truth

  

          

That's easier than actually evaluating the words that are spoken/written to you.

>maybe it hasn't occurred to you that you're not the arbiter of
>what people can or can't say/think?

You have a lot of generic deflections, that never address anything that's actually being said.

It has nothing to do with me being the arbiter of anything.

It has everything to do with how productive conversations occur.

Active listening is a prerequisite- something you didn't do in here.

Calling you out on that has nothing to being an arbiter.

You're more interested in
>flexing on people than sharing anything meaningful - on a
>message board. Lame AF.

Fundamentally incorrect. There's a time and a place for both, and I'd argue that one of the two people I'm engaging with on the antivax side disagrees with you completely- because I fully engage in a two-way discussion.

You engage an awful lot like, well.... an antivaxxer. Deflections, diversions, etc.

Even now, your big gotcha was some weak ass "aha, you said shut up! you lost!" bullshit. You have no actual discourse to offer beyond the empty preaching that you absolutely do not practice.

What happened here is, you feigned the high ground but VERY quickly showcased that you're absolutely not about that shit, the second someone stopped putting up with your disingenuousness.

  

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Heinz
Member since Dec 26th 2003
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Wed Jan-05-22 01:09 PM

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94. "A few things you are missing about Japan or Asia in general"
In response to Reply # 89


  

          

- Asian countries are WAY more compliant to wear masks and take the vaccine. Wearing masks when you are sick is already imbedded into their culture for fear or getting others sick but also for pollution reasons
- The rich Asian countries were able to hit the 70%+ way faster than North American countries. The poorer economies were not able to simply due to supply. Rich countries hoarded supplies.
- Japan is 80% vaccinated, the rest aren't anti vaxxers they are kids. Japanese parents back the gov to vaccinate their kids.
- Japan looks like fucking Blade Runner. Let's stop trying to compare ourselves to them because they are light years ahead of us in almost everything.

They are a great model of what we SHOULD be like but as far as comparing ourselves to someone realistic is Australia. As culturally we are more similar and they really knocked it out of the park with their fight against Covid.


  

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Vex_id
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96. "good points. "
In response to Reply # 94


          

Also - Japan is one of the (if not *the*) most homogenous societies on earth. So they don't have to deal with the complexity that comes with trying to balance and juggle a pluralist, multi-cultural society with different traditions that have to be balanced.

The differences are vast - but it is also interesting that Japan is showing more of a reverence for individual liberty than many so called traditional liberal democracies.

>They are a great model of what we SHOULD be like but as far as
>comparing ourselves to someone realistic is Australia. As
>culturally we are more similar and they really knocked it out
>of the park with their fight against Covid.

Until recently. They are experiencing record spikes right now. But it's also easier when you're an island that removed from continental neighbors. They aren't a perfect comparison either (no comparison is) - because they also aren't as transient as a global hub as we are.

But it is ironic: a lot of liberal societies seem to be trending towards more authoritarianism in their approach to the pandemic.


-->

  

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Heinz
Member since Dec 26th 2003
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Wed Jan-05-22 01:32 PM

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98. "Not really"
In response to Reply # 96
Wed Jan-05-22 01:37 PM by Heinz

  

          

>>reverence for individual liberty than many so called traditional liberal democracies.

I think that statement on the site you posted is from the perspective of NOT having a non compliant society on something that affects them all. They aren't seeing the type of shit they see from North America. Imagine being from there and seeing people argue over masks, fighting on planes about it, protesting, all this nonsense while living in a country where it's essentially normalized. Of course it's easy to have that point of view or have that opinion that it's up to the individual because you can freely say that as you aren't having a epidemic of stupid people throwing fists and tempter tantrums over it.

>>Until recently. They are experiencing record spikes right now. But it's also easier when you're an island that removed from continental neighbors. They aren't a perfect comparison either (no comparison is) - because they also aren't as transient as a global hub as we are.
But it is ironic: a lot of liberal societies seem to be trending towards more authoritarianism in their approach to the pandemic.

Yeah but I think that spike of a new more transmittable variant in any country is normal. That doesn't really alarm me as far as being suprised. The clogging of the hospitals and severe complications of the unvaccinated/partially vaccinated/immunocompromised is what is alarming to me in ANY country which is why we need to get more people vaccinated.



  

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Cold Truth
Member since Jan 28th 2004
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76. "They're aiding and abetting Covid. They are it's ally."
In response to Reply # 73
Tue Jan-04-22 06:01 PM by Cold Truth

  

          

>Again - the smoking analogy wasn't meant to be a perfect
>analogy. It was made to demonstrate that it's another
>personal choice that can (and does) wreak havoc on others
>around you (whereby thousands of non-smokers die of
>second-hand lung cancer every year).

I realize that, but there's a massive discrepancy in terms of scope- which is why it does not work as an analog to Covid.

>The problem with your logic here is that you're excluding the
>fact that vaccinated people are also driving a lot of
>transmission - so it's not as if you get vaccinated you're all
>of a sudden exempt from contributing to the pandemic and not a
>part of the problem, per se.

That's only a problem if you (not *you*, because I know you know this) view vaccines as a brick wall to viruses, but they're not. In fact, the fact that vaccinated people can get it *is* the point. Because right now, this is about containment, not eradication. Were eradication even possible, chances are that window is already closed.

>While it's true that you're less
>likely to get an initial infection if vaccinated (though not
>to the degree as it was originally purported) and it's also
>true that a vaccinated body clears the virus sooner (creating
>a shorter window of transmission) - vaccinated (and even
>boosted) hosts are still getting infected and transmitting the
>virus at significant rates.

Right. But as you explained, vaccination significantly reduces the severity of the infection. Which dramatically reduces every other negative impact of the virus. However, due to the proliferation of antivax sentiment, we're in a tug of war, with that severity consistently rearing it's head.

>But if you're vaccinated - it's exceptionally rare for you to
>die and/or develop severe disease that leads to
>hospitalization. So in this regard, the unvaccinated are
>actually sharing the overwhelming brunt and burden of their
>choices here (just as smokers do despite the fact that they
>still wreak havoc to those around them).

.... to a significantly lesser scope, sure. The issue isn't that the analogy is imperfect. But while you have clearly seen a significant direct impact of second hand smoke, it just doesn't rise to the ballpark of Covid.

To lend my own personal experience with the way selfish choices impact those around them, I'm the child of an absentee father, and a meth addict/alcoholic mother, who was physically and psychologically abusive. That's the tip of the tip of that iceberg. OI am the oldest of 11 kids, 9 still living, and let me tell you, those choices wreaked havoc on each of us. Those ramifications are still dealing serious aftershocks in the present. Nobody has cancer, but the psychological scars are deep. and some of us have not fared well at all in the aftermath of it all.

So I absolutely relate to the smoking analog, in my own way. I get it.

But while I agree that we can point to any number of personal decisions that cause tremendous harm to those around them, and we're not giving the same "if they die, they die" edict to a populace where everyone is guilty to so some degree of poor personal choices.

But the overall scale of this is dramatically different, and a heavy antivax population in midst of such a pandemic is an active danger to everyone, in ways that don't quite match typical poor decision making.

>Agreed. While I do think that mandates present serious
>constitutional (and civil liberty) issues - those who often
>talk about personal liberty and "My body my choice" (while
>incidentally denying a woman's right to an abortion) refuse to
>accept the fact that there are responsibilities that come with

Agreed.

My whole point of contention here is, we cannot divorce ourselves from the impact that the antivax crowd has on, quite literally, the entire population, right today, under this set of circumstances.

With due respect, too much of the onus is placed on the rest of us to maintain the moral high ground, while all manner of excuses and perspective is allowed for those who are contributing the most direct harm to our current situation. People can only take so much, and because we don't exist in a vacuum, because we share a world, and markets, and jobs, schools, etc, it is absolutely natural and reasonable that a portion of us can and do lose the lions share of empathetic feelings for the side that's actively fighting against the best weapon we have against this thing.

They are, essentially, an ally to covid, helping ensure it's survival at the expense of other humans. That may not be the intent, but that' the effect, and if there's anything sufficient to cause those other humans to say you know what? fuck them fools.... it's antivax- and mask- sentiment nearly two years into a global pandemic.

  

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Heinz
Member since Dec 26th 2003
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Tue Jan-04-22 01:25 PM

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67. "False equivalency. Stop it. "
In response to Reply # 60


  

          

Nobody is saying don’t treat smokers with lung cancer because they chose to smoke. Denying that Covid is serious, that vaccines don’t work, or that the experts have it all wrong is not the same as choosing to smoke and get sick UNLESSZ said smoker doesn’t believe in the experts and their data on smoking leading to lung cancer. Taking that information and protesting at cancer wards saying it’s a hoax. Creating Facebook groups to rally people in spreading disinformation on social media. Walking on airplanes, stores, restaurants with a lit cigarette saying you can’t infringe on my rights to smoke indoors. This is not the same and stop with the idiotic response in your entire post. You are much smarter than that.

Denying the science before getting sick and doing the most for your “freedoms” then getting sick and clogging up hospitals asking for the SAME people to help you with the exact science you spent denying all while arguing with them to give your the vaccine and shit like ivermectin and other shit that doesn’t work is who we are talking about.

Stop it.

  

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Vex_id
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Tue Jan-04-22 01:46 PM

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70. "Relax. We're just having a conversation. No need for sophomoric insults"
In response to Reply # 67


          

>Nobody is saying don’t treat smokers with lung cancer
>because they chose to smoke.

Should the unvaccinated be refused treatment because they chose to refuse the vaccine?

Denying that Covid is serious,
>that vaccines don’t work, or that the experts have it all
>wrong is not the same as choosing to smoke and get sick
>UNLESSZ said smoker doesn’t believe in the experts and their
>data on smoking leading to lung cancer.

Just trying to understand where your objection is. Is it the ideology they hold or their personal decision? Are you ok with someone who is unvaccinated but understands the science/risks and isn't spreading disinformation? Or is it just the mere choice of being unvaccinated that you find objectionable?

>Denying the science before getting sick and doing the most for
>your “freedoms” then getting sick and clogging up
>hospitals asking for the SAME people to help you with the
>exact science you spent denying all while arguing with them to
>give your the vaccine and shit like ivermectin and other shit
>that doesn’t work is who we are talking about.

Yea - I agree that it's egregious, frustrating, annoying etc. etc.

But that doesn't mean they should be treated any differently by the doctors, nurses and hospitals. You don't judge people's right to care based on their ideology, personal choices, or how wrong/bad of a person they are. Period.


-->

-->

  

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Heinz
Member since Dec 26th 2003
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Tue Jan-04-22 03:06 PM

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74. "RE: Relax. We're just having a conversation. No need for sophomoric ins..."
In response to Reply # 70


  

          

I am relaxed I can't help what tone you read it in. Also where did I insult you? Saying that you are smarter than your reply? You made the moronic false equivalent analogy thinking that was a serious reply to add to the convo is actually insulting to everyone here LOL

>Should the unvaccinated be refused treatment because they chose to refuse the vaccine?

That's not what I said either. I understand the Hippocratic Oath and believe that the doctors should abide by it in any case BUT that is not what this post is about. The post was about not giving a fuck about those people anymore. IF they die they die. We are running out of sympathy for these people, that's all. Now is it IRONIC and annoying that they run to hospitals to receive this exact science from the same people they shit on all day? Hell yeah. That is why we are on that "keep that same energy" vibe.

>>Just trying to understand where your objection is. Is it the ideology they hold or their personal decision? Are you ok with someone who is unvaccinated but understands the science/risks and isn't spreading disinformation? Or is it just the mere choice of being unvaccinated that you find objectionable?

Yes if you don't want to take it, shuttup and don't take it. No need to spread false information — NOT just information that objects to the experts or my beliefs, I'm talking false misleading information that we see and hear from these people every day). Once you do that, i'm on some FUCK YOU shit. Period.

>>Yea - I agree that it's egregious, frustrating, annoying etc. etc.

But that doesn't mean they should be treated any differently by the doctors, nurses and hospitals. You don't judge people's right to care based on their ideology, personal choices, or how wrong/bad of a person they are. Period.

I didn't say ANY of that so that does not apply to me. Do I personally think they shouldn't have the right to care despite their poor choices about the virus? Yep. Fuck them. If I were a doctor would I think that? Yep. Would I still take care of them? Of course. But fuck them and those kinds of people. I can have more than one thought.







  

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eclipsedInI
Member since Jul 29th 2002
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Tue Jan-04-22 09:03 PM

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79. "idiocracy, a damn near millenia of modern medical advancements"
In response to Reply # 0


          

now everyone is a public health, medical research, epidemiologist and virologist.

it's sad and stupid.

i just wish people would just do what they've been doing since they were born.

every single one of you have multiple vaccines in your body right now and have had them since childhood.

even willingly get optional ones to travel to other countries and get visas

the amount of death, is staggering

i have no sympathy for stupidity

caution, questions, sure. But stupidity, NONE

_____________________
puttin' the roota in the toota since 98'

  

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Brew
Member since Nov 23rd 2002
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Wed Jan-05-22 10:12 AM

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85. "None of these morons can answer when their "research" ..."
In response to Reply # 79


          

.. will end or be satisfactory to them either.

Fuck them all.


>now everyone is a public health, medical research,
>epidemiologist and virologist.
>
>it's sad and stupid.
>
>i just wish people would just do what they've been doing since
>they were born.
>
>every single one of you have multiple vaccines in your body
>right now and have had them since childhood.
>
>even willingly get optional ones to travel to other countries
>and get visas
>
>the amount of death, is staggering
>
>i have no sympathy for stupidity
>
>caution, questions, sure. But stupidity, NONE

----------------------------------------

"Fuck aliens." © WarriorPoet415

  

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Reeq
Member since Mar 11th 2013
12708 posts
Wed Jan-05-22 03:37 PM

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101. "mfs would rather get their med advice from podcasts & hotep ig accounts."
In response to Reply # 79
Wed Jan-05-22 03:38 PM by Reeq

  

          

.

------

  

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Frank Longo
Member since Nov 18th 2003
84845 posts
Wed Jan-05-22 05:25 PM

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102. "There's no point in debating them, really."
In response to Reply # 79


  

          

Because they have this podcast with one doctor and that PDF from a think tank that gives them all the info they need. "This guy who worked at Pfizer or who worked on vaccines has the REAL truth that the other 99.9% of scientists won't acknowledge!"
Like... how do you convince that person to get a vaccine? They won't listen to 99.9%.

And leave the conspiratorial anti-vaxxers aside for a moment-- what about the normal folks who aren't QAnon or anything, they just "don't really trust the vaccine"? There's endless material online from an overwhelming consensus of doctors and scientists. So if they still trust their gut over the vast majority of the field of experts, then they're either alarmingly incurious or not being honest with themselves about the forces driving their decision.

Shit, they booed Trump the other day when even *he* said to go get a vaccine and a booster.

Their minds are made up. They know the hidden truth about the world that all doctors and scientists are conspiring to conceal, or, perhaps less forgivably, they simply don't care about any of this. So while I have relative compassion for many of those who chose not to get the vaccine, through lack of access to education or through personal trauma or through whatever else may have led them down this path... I also find the impulse in those who now have no compassion for the anti-vax set completely understandable. Unvaccinated people are more likely to be the hosts for mutations and subsequent variants (if you're skeptical, take five minutes of Google searching, you'll find a dozen sources). Delta, Omicron, and to-be-determined variants, variants that can break through existing vaccines, cause further societal disruption, and threaten the lives of ourselves and our loved ones. The depth and breadth of general compassion for humanity has its limits.

For beer lovers: http://thebeertravelguide.com
For movie lovers: http://russellhainline.com

  

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Brew
Member since Nov 23rd 2002
21756 posts
Wed Jan-05-22 05:59 PM

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103. "Ima copy and paste this in perpetuity. Thanks. LOL."
In response to Reply # 102


          

Just so perfectly, frankly, and reasonably stated.


>Because they have this podcast with one doctor and that PDF
>from a think tank that gives them all the info they need.
>"This guy who worked at Pfizer or who worked on vaccines has
>the REAL truth that the other 99.9% of scientists won't
>acknowledge!"
>Like... how do you convince that person to get a vaccine? They
>won't listen to 99.9%.
>
>And leave the conspiratorial anti-vaxxers aside for a moment--
>what about the normal folks who aren't QAnon or anything, they
>just "don't really trust the vaccine"? There's endless
>material online from an overwhelming consensus of doctors and
>scientists. So if they still trust their gut over the vast
>majority of the field of experts, then they're either
>alarmingly incurious or not being honest with themselves about
>the forces driving their decision.
>
>Shit, they booed Trump the other day when even *he* said to go
>get a vaccine and a booster.
>
>Their minds are made up. They know the hidden truth about the
>world that all doctors and scientists are conspiring to
>conceal, or, perhaps less forgivably, they simply don't care
>about any of this. So while I have relative compassion for
>many of those who chose not to get the vaccine, through lack
>of access to education or through personal trauma or through
>whatever else may have led them down this path... I also find
>the impulse in those who now have no compassion for the
>anti-vax set completely understandable. Unvaccinated people
>are more likely to be the hosts for mutations and subsequent
>variants (if you're skeptical, take five minutes of Google
>searching, you'll find a dozen sources). Delta, Omicron, and
>to-be-determined variants, variants that can break through
>existing vaccines, cause further societal disruption, and
>threaten the lives of ourselves and our loved ones. The depth
>and breadth of general compassion for humanity has its limits.
>

----------------------------------------

"Fuck aliens." © WarriorPoet415

  

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The Mac
Member since Feb 11th 2008
1488 posts
Wed Jan-05-22 07:53 PM

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104. "What seems to be consistent is ya'll have no data"
In response to Reply # 102


          

Just the same ol generic attacks on anti-vaxxers, as if we are even anti-vaxxers.

Can you imagine that maybe we are pro-ALL OTHER VACCINES, but wait and see on COVID vaxx? Maybe since it is causing record fatalities, is strongly linked to heart and clotting problems, was rushed through trials, etc we are doing a bit of wait and see...does that ever cross your mind?

Ya'll still haven't answered these questions. Ya'll never answer with actual data. You just put folks in some weird Q-Anon box, but like Kayru said up top, there are all types of folks and ya'll keep disregarding that.

Why were there more deaths in placebo group than vaxx group in Pfizer trial? How can such a product even get approved? Did you even know that?

That's not a funny PDF or one doctor. Thats FROM PFIZERS CLINICAL DATA REPORT. Also easy with 1 minute of Google.

The real problem is that ya'll still think science if monolithic. And you think it's not influenced by corrupt, nefarious forces. This is not no QAnon shit. Pfizer is the most corrupt, most sued company EVER. Moderna is a brand new company with ONE PRODUCT and its making BILLIONS. Fauci is getting hundreds of thousands in kickbacks from THESE SPECIFIC PRODUCTS.


There are THOUSANDS, hundreds of thousands of doctors, virologists, epidemiologists, "experts" etc that are in disagreement with.

Ya'll shit on Rogan all you want....but Dr Malone is certified as a KEY player in mRNA technology. He might peddle shit you don't LIKE, but his credentials are certified when it comes to mRNA. He's at least worth a listen.

Dr McCullough's resume is also impeccable.

From USC - https://www.uscjournal.com/authors/peter-mccullough
"Dr. McCullough is recognized internationally as a leading figure in the study of chronic kidney disease as a cardiovascular risk state, having over 1,000 publications to his name and over 500 citations in the National Library of Medicine.³ He is also a founder of the Cardio Renal Society of America, which is a group that dedicates itself to bringing cardiologists and nephrologists together to work on the increasing global issue of cardiorenal syndromes. He is the Co-Editor of Reviews in Cardiovascular Medicine and is also currently serving as the Chair of the National Kidney Foundation's Kidney Early Evaluation Program (KEEP), the largest community screening effort for chronic diseases in America.

Dr. McCullough received the International Vicenza Award for Critical Care Nephrology for his outstanding work and contribution in the area of cardiorenal syndromes. He has also been a recipient of the Simon Dack Award from the American College of Cardiology, and his works have appeared in the New England Journal of Medicine, Journal of the American Medical Association, and other prestigious journals worldwide. He has been an invited lecturer at the New York Academy of Sciences, the National Institutes of Health, the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA), the European Medicines Agency, and the U.S. Congressional Oversight Panel."


Dr Luc Montagnier is a Nobel Prize winning virologist and warned against leaky vaccines and explains clearly how with imperfect vaccines THE VACCINATED cause variants.

Dr Raoult is a LEGEND in his field, but he's not an expert now? Just because he is going against Fauci?


The Great Barrington Declaration consists of hundreds of doctors/physicians/etc - Standford, Oxford, Harvard etc...There are FAUCI emails where they COLLUDED to politically take them down and censor them. TRUST THE SCIENCE RIGHT?

The FLCCC Alliance has tens of thousands of doctors worldwide.

There are countless other groups all over the world like this. There are literally thousands of scientists that disagree with differnet parts of this COVID shit, whether it be the vaxx or IVM or HCQ or whatever...


Science isn't monolithic. Fauci isn't GOD. One group is being blindly followed despite MASSIVE pushback and AWFUL results -

Lockdowns didn't stop the spread and the WHO themselves are PLEADING authoritarian govts not to do them again because of the DISASTROUS damage they do.

Masks cause much harm and aren't proven in stopping the spread either. Any comparison of states/countries mask policies easily shows this, and the "studies" are 50/50 at best.


The vaccines are the most dangerous medical product ever produced - the VAERS data has been thoroughly assessed and cross examined, studied etc AND it's consistent with Pfizers clinical trial (again more died in vaxx group than placebo) AND other countries reporting systems (UK, Europe..). You cant keep calling them safe. They might work and you can debate hospitalization numbers but THEY AINT SAFE.


These doctors warned about ADE, pathogenic priming, leaky vaccines causing variants and THEY GOT CENSORED. By companies like Google and Facebook that OWN VACCINE COMPANIES. SCIENCE THOUGH RIGHT?



Lastly, the whole "unvaxxed are reckless idiots and we are responsible" shit is a joke based on my anecdotal life experience. I have MULTIPLE family members who hung around SICK "but I got vaxxed so it ain't COVID" and ended up spreading it to others. I know MULTIPLE people who TESTED POSITIVE and went STRAIGHT ON A PLANE THIS MONTH b/c they were vaxxed so didn't need to test to get on the plane, only unvaxxed have to test. I can drop at least 50 examples of vaxxed people acting all willy nilly and BEING SICK but not giving a fuck "becuase I'm vaxxed." The hypocrisy is disgusting.


Address the DATA, the STUDIES. Stop spouting bullshit "SCIENCE SCIENCE YALL ARE SETTING US BACK" but you don't have any data or actual science to back your shit up.

And again, loud and clear, THERE ARE THOUSANDS OF SCIENTISTS AGAINST YOU, you just don't seem to know it.




Cause I'm doing better now, don't mean I never lost shit/ I was married to a state of mind and I divorced it -- Black Thought

  

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eclipsedInI
Member since Jul 29th 2002
92854 posts
Wed Jan-05-22 08:43 PM

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105. "dear god."
In response to Reply # 104


          

i work in healthcare with mostly immune compromised people and dual morbidities

i also know doctors and nurses in multiple healthcare community settings and hospitals.

everything you've stated is wrong

spend some time talking to docs at an ER, or an urgent care

just a little time

_____________________
puttin' the roota in the toota since 98'

  

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The Mac
Member since Feb 11th 2008
1488 posts
Thu Jan-06-22 02:15 PM

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119. "As I said, same response over and over"
In response to Reply # 105


          

What is wrong? Address a specific point and rebut it...

Cause I'm doing better now, don't mean I never lost shit/ I was married to a state of mind and I divorced it -- Black Thought

  

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Heinz
Member since Dec 26th 2003
20478 posts
Wed Jan-05-22 09:34 PM

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106. "Wrote all that but it’s all been debunked for months"
In response to Reply # 104


  

          

Malone
https://vm.tiktok.com/ZM8o1CQna/
https://vm.tiktok.com/ZM8o1Mq5o/
https://vm.tiktok.com/ZM8o1A21p/

McCullough
https://vm.tiktok.com/ZM8o1AT9X/
https://vm.tiktok.com/ZM8o1bLKJ/
https://vm.tiktok.com/ZM8o1fCSd/
https://vm.tiktok.com/ZM8o1xJGH/
https://vm.tiktok.com/ZM8o1ybA7/

You are a pathetic.


  

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Brew
Member since Nov 23rd 2002
21756 posts
Thu Jan-06-22 09:41 AM

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109. "^"
In response to Reply # 106


          

>Malone
>https://vm.tiktok.com/ZM8o1CQna/
>https://vm.tiktok.com/ZM8o1Mq5o/
>https://vm.tiktok.com/ZM8o1A21p/
>
>McCullough
>https://vm.tiktok.com/ZM8o1AT9X/
>https://vm.tiktok.com/ZM8o1bLKJ/
>https://vm.tiktok.com/ZM8o1fCSd/
>https://vm.tiktok.com/ZM8o1xJGH/
>https://vm.tiktok.com/ZM8o1ybA7/
>
>You are a pathetic.

Such a fucking loser.

----------------------------------------

"Fuck aliens." © WarriorPoet415

  

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The Mac
Member since Feb 11th 2008
1488 posts
Thu Jan-06-22 02:53 PM

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124. "At least you tried, thank you"
In response to Reply # 106


          

Although the continued ad hominem attacks prove my main point, I'll at least acknowledge an attempt at replying with some science. Even though he's on TikTok, I appreciate the FIRST response in here with an ATTEMPT at using data.

As a general response, I never said Malone and McCullough are correct about everything they say. I said they have solid credentials. I believe their voices are important, at least to have a back and forth and come to a balanced, reasonable solution.


It's easy to nitpick these guys...I can make a million videos about Fauci just the same way.

Also no response to the groups that consist of HUNDREDS if not THOUSANDS of doctors/nurses/virologists/epidemiologists, etc, just a TikTok Doc nitpcking 2 guys...


Anyways...

Point by point...video by video, lets see...

Malone
https://vm.tiktok.com/ZM8o1CQna/

I literally said exactly what he said. I said he IS ONE OF the guys, not THE GUY. So, didn't debunk anything, actually in agreement here.

https://vm.tiktok.com/ZM8o1Mq5o/

No proven connection between mRNA and blood clots? LOL why have they been removed from Finland Norway Sweden etc? Literally because they cause blood clots. C'mon, you talk misinformation? This is A LIE and a half...


https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02291-2
https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2021/04/vaccine-related-blood-clot-mystery-must-be-solved/618623/

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/finland-pauses-use-moderna-covid-19-vaccine-young-men-2021-10-07/
https://www.ft.com/content/3a89e349-0c08-4ee7-908e-20037b016cc6

The other point he is making is not a point I made...and it's not even a strong point. The spike protein is worse in COVID than vaxx...OK, and? That's not proof that Malone is wrong that the vaxx is not safe. Comparing a natural infection to a MANDATED product is insane.

https://vm.tiktok.com/ZM8o1A21p/

He literally debunked nothing here. Talks risk/benefit but provides no analysis...weak.


McCullough
https://vm.tiktok.com/ZM8o1AT9X/

Funny, he says REMDESIVIR DOESNT WORK in this video, but that has been the only approved treatment in US before vaccines, heavily touted by FAUCI GOD. Why no mention of that?

And he says with INFLUENZA we DO HAVE EVIDENCE reducing symptoms...soo, not debunked?


https://vm.tiktok.com/ZM8o1bLKJ/

THIS is pathetic. McCullough says he has 200+ trials, TikTok Doc counters "I got these 5."

https://hcqmeta.com/

Good luck with this guy.


https://vm.tiktok.com/ZM8o1fCSd/

Same argument in the one Malone vid on spike protein. So so far he MIGHT be right on AMOUNT or DANGER of spike protein in vaxx...which may be true, but still doesn't answer WHY SO MANY CASES OF CLOTS, MYOCARDITIS, and DEATH


https://vm.tiktok.com/ZM8o1xJGH/

Probably the only fair argument so far. An argument LITERALLY nobody in here has made. I have not seen a Holocaust reference on OKP this whole time. As mentioned in previous post, they say things we may not LIKE, but ya'll keep discussing politics and other shit, not the SCIENCE.


https://vm.tiktok.com/ZM8o1ybA7/

Not a lot of strong science here either.

After going through each video I honestly expected a bit better. Feel free to argue any of these points, or just call me an idiot again. Either way is OK.

Still waiting on an answer as to why there are thousands of experts that are in agreement AGAINST the narrative and are being censored and blackballed. Why aren't they part of science?

Also waiting on an explanation on deaths, blots, heart problems, etc related to vaccines? Still no answer there...

Also no answer on Pfizer clinical trials, I'm guessing ya'll are scared to touch that?


Again, thanks for trying though. TikTok Doc was overall interesting, but not super convincing.

Cause I'm doing better now, don't mean I never lost shit/ I was married to a state of mind and I divorced it -- Black Thought

  

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Cold Truth
Member since Jan 28th 2004
42697 posts
Thu Jan-06-22 03:06 PM

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127. "mRNA vaccines aren't the ones linked to clots. "
In response to Reply # 124
Thu Jan-06-22 03:17 PM by Cold Truth

  

          

>https://vm.tiktok.com/ZM8o1Mq5o/
>
>No proven connection between mRNA and blood clots? LOL why
>have they been removed from Finland Norway Sweden etc?
>Literally because they cause blood clots. C'mon, you talk
>misinformation? This is A LIE and a half...

Well, it didn't take long to learn that the vaccine that's linked to blood clots is the Johnson & Johnson vaccine- which doesn't use mRNA.

https://www.yalemedicine.org/news/coronavirus-vaccine-blood-clots
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02291-2

In fact, the CDC specifically reccomends mRNA vaccines over the J&J one for this very reason:

https://www.contagionlive.com/view/cdc-recommends-mrna-covid-19-vaccines-over-j-j-citing-rare-blood-clots

Here's another source stating that the J&J vaccine isn't mRNA based:

https://www.vcuhealth.org/news/covid-19/johnson-and-johnson-vaccine-how-is-it-different

YET AGAIN: you got it exactly backward.

Moreover, the at-risk population for this appears to be concentrated on women under 50:

https://www.ama-assn.org/delivering-care/public-health/what-doctors-wish-patients-knew-about-johnson-johnson-vaccine#:~:text=The%20FDA%20updated%20the%20J%26J,pose%20this%20small%20risk.

Which is good information to have, meaning that people within this group should definitely NOT take the J&J vaccine, and opt for one of the other available options.

For all your chest out bravado, you're 0-2 for the only two claims I've checked so far.

I keep telling you that you have things backward, and I'll cite my source for that:

YOU.

You keep proving that assertion to be correct. You proved it here with your assertion that the claim that mRNA vaccines cause blood clots, when your 1 minute google challenge showed that to be false.

You proved it above, when you said that more people died from the vaccination in the Pfizer trials than the did from the placebo- and, wonder of wonders, you had it *exactly* backward.

twice, in fact:

First, 2 deaths in the vaxxed group to 4 in the placebo group

Second, They died during the trial, and yet there was no demonstrable link to the vaccine or the placebos.

So the assertion, or even an implication, that the trial itself is the cause of those deaths is just plain false.

You have so much bravado about all this, and yet it took such little effort to show that you're completely wrong in two pretty significant assertions so far. It's like your determined to believe even the slightest drop of alternative opinions on this, simply because it's the alternative opinion.

Almost like you're leading cherry picked evidence, instead of allowing the evidence to lead you.

It's almost like it's right out of the antivaxx 101 playbook.

It's almost like, people have good reason to lump you in with the broader antivax sentiment, because you continue to demonstrate that you do all the things that would fall under that umbrella.

  

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The Mac
Member since Feb 11th 2008
1488 posts
Thu Jan-06-22 03:35 PM

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"Bro you are proving the vaccines are unsafe"


          

I dont give a shit if they are mRNA or J&J or whatever you wanna call them. They are linked to blood clots, myocarditis, and death.

But ya, sure, the J&J is the blood clot one, my bad, I got it wrong. I won't take that one, let me take the heart inflammation one.


And I just responded to your little fact check - you are way off. It's not 2 v 4 its like 20 v 14. Its in the PFIZER PAPERWORK



Cause I'm doing better now, don't mean I never lost shit/ I was married to a state of mind and I divorced it -- Black Thought

  

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Cold Truth
Member since Jan 28th 2004
42697 posts
Thu Jan-06-22 03:55 PM

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133. "... and here comes the diversion, right on cue"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

No, I'm not. You, however, are proving *again* that you still have a backward understand of how vaccines work to inoculate a *population* from a virus.

You see vaccines as an all or nothing brick wall proposition, despite the fact that they aren't even presented as such.

>I dont give a shit if they are mRNA or J&J or whatever you
>wanna call them. They are linked to blood clots, myocarditis,
>and death.

You gave a huge, steaming shit above, in your LIES LIES LIES rant about the mRNA/blood clot connection.

>But ya, sure, the J&J is the blood clot one, my bad, I got it
>wrong. I won't take that one, let me take the heart
>inflammation one.

...and cue the dsimissal.

>And I just responded to your little fact check - you are way
>off. It's not 2 v 4 its like 20 v 14. Its in the PFIZER
>PAPERWORK

Cool, I'll look into that.

Does the pfizer paperwork state that 20 people died from the vaccine?

Also, can you, you know, actually provide the source- you know, like I did? It's weird how you don't just provide the source for your assertions. If you actually gave half a fuck about any of this, you fucking WOULD. And it wouldn't be a problem.

But what you're ullustrated here, is that your goal IS to be the other, the alt, the dissenter- but more than that, your demonstrable goal here is to be persecuted.

You can link up credentials of a person, but not the hard data to support the actual claim itself?

And you have the nerve to sit here and talk about "the continued ad hominem attacks"?

And Vex has the audacity to chastise me/us for painting you as a caricature?

No wonder people hate Don't Look Up. It's too fucking real.

  

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Brew
Member since Nov 23rd 2002
21756 posts
Thu Jan-06-22 04:14 PM

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136. "The stupidity is astounding."
In response to Reply # 133


          

You and others have refuted and provided context and nuance for each bullshit point this idiot brings up and he just keeps repeating himself.

It's like the post George Floyd murder conversations with racists. Just going around in circles because these people cannot possibly parse nuance and basic context.

It's why I just call them stupid and count on people like you to keep hammering them with the details lol. I just no longer have the patience for the idiocy.


>No, I'm not. You, however, are proving *again* that you still
>have a backward understand of how vaccines work to inoculate a
>*population* from a virus.
>
>You see vaccines as an all or nothing brick wall proposition,
>despite the fact that they aren't even presented as such.
>
>>I dont give a shit if they are mRNA or J&J or whatever you
>>wanna call them. They are linked to blood clots,
>myocarditis,
>>and death.
>
>You gave a huge, steaming shit above, in your LIES LIES LIES
>rant about the mRNA/blood clot connection.
>
>>But ya, sure, the J&J is the blood clot one, my bad, I got
>it
>>wrong. I won't take that one, let me take the heart
>>inflammation one.
>
>...and cue the dsimissal.
>
>>And I just responded to your little fact check - you are way
>>off. It's not 2 v 4 its like 20 v 14. Its in the PFIZER
>>PAPERWORK
>
>Cool, I'll look into that.
>
>Does the pfizer paperwork state that 20 people died from the
>vaccine?
>
>Also, can you, you know, actually provide the source- you
>know, like I did? It's weird how you don't just provide the
>source for your assertions. If you actually gave half a fuck
>about any of this, you fucking WOULD. And it wouldn't be a
>problem.
>
>But what you're ullustrated here, is that your goal IS to be
>the other, the alt, the dissenter- but more than that, your
>demonstrable goal here is to be persecuted.
>
>You can link up credentials of a person, but not the hard data
>to support the actual claim itself?
>
>And you have the nerve to sit here and talk about "the
>continued ad hominem attacks"?
>
>And Vex has the audacity to chastise me/us for painting you as
>a caricature?
>
>No wonder people hate Don't Look Up. It's too fucking real.

----------------------------------------

"Fuck aliens." © WarriorPoet415

  

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The Mac
Member since Feb 11th 2008
1488 posts
Thu Jan-06-22 05:28 PM

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143. "Post 131"
In response to Reply # 133


          

Cause I'm doing better now, don't mean I never lost shit/ I was married to a state of mind and I divorced it -- Black Thought

  

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The Mac
Member since Feb 11th 2008
1488 posts
Thu Jan-06-22 03:35 PM

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132. "Bro you are proving the vaccines are unsafe"
In response to Reply # 127


          

I dont give a shit if they are mRNA or J&J or whatever you wanna call them. They are linked to blood clots, myocarditis, and death.

But ya, sure, the J&J is the blood clot one, my bad, I got it wrong. I won't take that one, let me take the heart inflammation one.


And I just responded to your little fact check - you are way off. It's not 2 v 4 its like 20 v 14. Its in the PFIZER PAPERWORK



Cause I'm doing better now, don't mean I never lost shit/ I was married to a state of mind and I divorced it -- Black Thought

  

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Heinz
Member since Dec 26th 2003
20478 posts
Thu Jan-06-22 04:42 PM

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138. "He literally has the sources behind him in EVERY video LOL"
In response to Reply # 124


  

          

Dude is also using the sources both of those guys speak of and showing what the data ACTUALLY says and back its up with other sources.

CITE. YOUR. CLAIMS.

Funniest shit you really stand behind claims that are not true that 5th grade science classes can debunk. FOH.

You keep saying these guys are respect in the community. By who? None of his colleagues ever call him the inventor of emRNA, HE'S THE ONLY ONE WHO CLAIMS THIS!

  

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Cold Truth
Member since Jan 28th 2004
42697 posts
Thu Jan-06-22 02:41 PM

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122. "Your assertions: a lot Sources provided: Zero "
In response to Reply # 104
Thu Jan-06-22 03:08 PM by Cold Truth

  

          

You wrote a ranting, meandering diatribe, cited no actual sources, and you're talking about how nobody rebutted anything you said.

The only thing you actually cited was some credentials

>Can you imagine that maybe we are pro-ALL OTHER VACCINES, but
>wait and see on COVID vaxx? Maybe since it is causing record
>fatalities

Record fatalities? Source, please.

>Ya'll still haven't answered these questions. Ya'll never
>answer with actual data. You just put folks in some weird
>Q-Anon box, but like Kayru said up top, there are all types of
>folks and ya'll keep disregarding that.

You're not special. You don't have to be Q to be wrong.

Moreover, you said above that the only thing that matters is that the vaccine isn't stopping transmission.

it's not, and you're ignoring plenty of contextual reasons for why this is the case. i addressed this above, but of course, you ignored that

You've proven time and again that, despite all the names and credentials and unsourced assertions you've made, you get fundamental facts contextually backward.

>Why were there more deaths in placebo group than vaxx group in
>Pfizer trial? How can such a product even get approved? Did
>you even know that?

>That's not a funny PDF or one doctor. Thats FROM PFIZERS
>CLINICAL DATA REPORT. Also easy with 1 minute of Google.

Here's 30 seconds of google for you:

https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-factcheck-pfizer-health-concerns/fact-check-clarifying-claims-around-pfizer-vaccine-deaths-and-side-effects-idUSKBN28K2R6

"Six participants did die during the 44,000 person Pfizer vaccine trial, two of whom were given the vaccine while the other four people received a placebo (here)."

So you have it backward, because literally twice as many people died on the placebo.

Here's more:

"One of the vaccine recipients had a cardiac arrest 62 days after a second dose of the two-dose vaccination and died three days later. The other died from arteriosclerosis three days after a first dose of the vaccination. One of the placebo recipients died from myocardial infarction, another from haemorrhagic stroke and two others from unknown causes.

The FDA briefings clarify that the deaths were not deemed to be related to the vaccine: “None of these deaths were assessed by the investigator as related to study intervention”. They explain: “All deaths represent events that occur in the general population of the age groups where they occurred, at a similar rate.”

There's more, but you can read it yourself. Because I provided an actual source

I'll be happy to address the rest of this later, when I have the time.

But you're 0-1 after the very first thing I checked.

  

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Brew
Member since Nov 23rd 2002
21756 posts
Thu Jan-06-22 02:52 PM

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123. "100"
In response to Reply # 122


          

>You wrote a ranting, meandering diatribe, cited no actual
>sources, and you're talking about how nobody rebutted anything
>you said.
>
>The only thing you actually cited was some credentials, which
>would
>
>>Can you imagine that maybe we are pro-ALL OTHER VACCINES,
>but
>>wait and see on COVID vaxx? Maybe since it is causing record
>>fatalities
>
>Record fatalities? Source, please.
>
>>Ya'll still haven't answered these questions. Ya'll never
>>answer with actual data. You just put folks in some weird
>>Q-Anon box, but like Kayru said up top, there are all types
>of
>>folks and ya'll keep disregarding that.
>
>You're not special. You don't have to be Q to be wrong.
>
>Moreover, you said above that the only thing that matters is
>that the vaccine isn't stopping transmission.
>
>it's not, and you're ignoring plenty of contextual reasons for
>why this is the case. i addressed this above, but of course,
>you ignored that
>
>You've proven time and again that, despite all the names and
>credentials and unsourced assertions you've made, you get
>fundamental facts contextually backward.
>
>>Why were there more deaths in placebo group than vaxx group
>in
>>Pfizer trial? How can such a product even get approved?
>Did
>>you even know that?
>
>>That's not a funny PDF or one doctor. Thats FROM PFIZERS
>>CLINICAL DATA REPORT. Also easy with 1 minute of Google.
>
>Here's 30 seconds of google for you:
>
>https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-factcheck-pfizer-health-concerns/fact-check-clarifying-claims-around-pfizer-vaccine-deaths-and-side-effects-idUSKBN28K2R6
>
>"Six participants did die during the 44,000 person Pfizer
>vaccine trial, two of whom were given the vaccine while the
>other four people received a placebo (here)."
>
>So you have it backward, because literally twice as many
>people died on the placebo.
>
>Here's more:
>
>"One of the vaccine recipients had a cardiac arrest 62 days
>after a second dose of the two-dose vaccination and died three
>days later. The other died from arteriosclerosis three days
>after a first dose of the vaccination. One of the placebo
>recipients died from myocardial infarction, another from
>haemorrhagic stroke and two others from unknown causes.
>
>The FDA briefings clarify that the deaths were not deemed to
>be related to the vaccine: “None of these deaths were
>assessed by the investigator as related to study
>intervention”. They explain: “All deaths represent events
>that occur in the general population of the age groups where
>they occurred, at a similar rate.”
>
>There's more, but you can read it yourself. Because I provided
>an actual source
>
>I'll be happy to address the rest of this later, when I have
>the time.
>
>But you're 0-1 after the very first thing I checked.

----------------------------------------

"Fuck aliens." © WarriorPoet415

  

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The Mac
Member since Feb 11th 2008
1488 posts
Thu Jan-06-22 03:30 PM

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131. "RE: Your assertions: a lot Sources provided: Zero "
In response to Reply # 122


          


>The only thing you actually cited was some credentials, which
>would

Credentials because ya'll keep claiming that science is monolithic and all the experts are together when that is not true.

>
>Record fatalities? Source, please.

VAERS
https://vaers.hhs.gov/

EudraVigilance
https://www.adrreports.eu/en/

Canadian Joint
https://health-infobase.canada.ca/covid-19/vaccine-safety/

WHO joint
http://vigiaccess.org/


Theres tons of studies being done as well...

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/jth.15493


>
>it's not, and you're ignoring plenty of contextual reasons for
>why this is the case. i addressed this above, but of course,
>you ignored that
>
>You've proven time and again that, despite all the names and
>credentials and unsourced assertions you've made, you get
>fundamental facts contextually backward.

The only other point you made that has any worth is hospitalization. So if I just don't go to the hospital you'll be cool with me being unvaxxed?


>
>>Why were there more deaths in placebo group than vaxx group
>in
>>Pfizer trial? How can such a product even get approved?
>Did
>>you even know that?
>
>>That's not a funny PDF or one doctor. Thats FROM PFIZERS
>>CLINICAL DATA REPORT. Also easy with 1 minute of Google.
>
>Here's 30 seconds of google for you:
>
>https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-factcheck-pfizer-health-concerns/fact-check-clarifying-claims-around-pfizer-vaccine-deaths-and-side-effects-idUSKBN28K2R6
>

Fact check?? LOL thats a study ?? Quick Google search shows Reuters factcheck is funded by Facebook, no conflict of interest here at at all. Reuters is also linked in 100s of ways to Bill Gates Foundation. C'mon , this is not science.

THIS IS DIRECTLY FROM PFIZER TRIALS

https://www.nejm.org/doi/suppl/10.1056/NEJMoa2110345/suppl_file/nejmoa2110345_appendix.pdf

The fact check only looked at 1 of the trials, but there are more than 1! Deaths in Pfizer 15, Placebo 14. And in footnotes they held 2 more, one in each.

"15 participants in the BNT162b2 group and
14 in the placebo group died; during the openlabel period, 3 participants in the BNT162b2 group
and 2 in the original placebo group who received
BNT162b2 after unblinding died."



Heres a link AGAIN from hundreds of doctors in Canada with a DETAILED breakdown of why the Pfizer trials were a joke. Read it and tell me where they are wrong.

https://www.canadiancovidcarealliance.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/12/The-COVID-19-Inoculations-More-Harm-Than-Good-REV-Dec-16-2021.pdf



THOSE ARE ACTUAL SOURCES. Not some bullshit political fact check.

Also, I apologize for not responding directly to your earlier posts, a lot of my responses end up just being to a later post. I saw your responses and I always appreciate your balanced convos. Thank you for being one of the few to respond sincerely and attempting a balanced discourse and providing some data and sources.

Hopefully some of this is sourced enough for your liking. Also my previous post to somebody else has more sources as well.

Cause I'm doing better now, don't mean I never lost shit/ I was married to a state of mind and I divorced it -- Black Thought

  

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kayru99
Member since Jan 26th 2004
15935 posts
Fri Jan-07-22 02:07 PM

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149. "re: Rueters Fact Check and collusion"
In response to Reply # 131
Fri Jan-07-22 02:22 PM by kayru99

          

It's even worse that what you shared, lol

Pfizer just elected the CEO of Thompson Reuters to it's Board of Directors:

https://www.pfizer.com/news/press-release/press-release-detail/james_c_smith_elected_to_pfizer_s_board_of_directors?linkId=8632903

In a sane, non-corporate hellscape of a society, this would be grounds for censure/investigation/govt oversight...here though?
NAH.

Honestly man, debating with diehard liberal vaxxers is pointless.

It's simply not about public health for these cats.
it's about a superiority complex.

One could very easily be vaccinated and boosted and see that that combo...ain't a long term solution.

There's way too many objective problems with the "just get the vaxxx!!!!" idea, even if you remove the adverse effects of the vaxx, Pfizer's sketchiness, etc...



The vaxx doesn't sterilize the disease, so it's going to mutate.
and you simply can not inject people with an unknown chemical compound for each new mutation, in perpetuity.

AND the pfizer product wears off after about 6 months.

You can't inject an unknown chemical compound every 6 months into a large population, in perpetuity.

NO ONE knows the long term side effects

There appears to be some crossover point where certain co-morbidities overwhelm the protections supposedly offered by Pfizer's product.

So solutions beyond the Pfizer product objectively MUST happen.

They simply *have* to be developed.


Thankfully, the global scientific community don't get their "science" from MSNBC, lol

  

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Cold Truth
Member since Jan 28th 2004
42697 posts
Fri Jan-07-22 02:32 PM

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152. "Jesus christ. FORMER CEO. Not the ceo. The former ceo. "
In response to Reply # 149
Fri Jan-07-22 02:33 PM by Cold Truth

  

          

>It's even worse that what you shared, lol
>
>Pfizer just elected the CEO of Thompson Reuters to it's Board
>of Directors:

Former. Key word there. Critical, actually.
He’s currently chairman of the board of trustees, of the thompson reuters chiaritable foundation.

You rant a lot below about this, yet you said nothjng at all that remotely makes a case for “collusion”.

So what evidence do you have to support the collusion claim, specifically the ways in which that collusion has impacted Reuters COVID information?

>https://www.pfizer.com/news/press-release/press-release-detail/james_c_smith_elected_to_pfizer_s_board_of_directors?linkId=8632903
>
>In a sane, non-corporate hellscape of a society, this would be
>grounds for censure/investigation/govt oversight...here
>though?
>NAH.
>
>Honestly man, debating with diehard liberal vaxxers is
>pointless.
>
>It's simply not about public health for these cats.
>it's about a superiority complex.
>
>One could very easily be vaccinated and boosted and see that
>that combo...ain't a long term solution.
>
>There's way too many objective problems with the "just get the
>vaxxx!!!!" idea, even if you remove the adverse effects of the
>vaxx, Pfizer's sketchiness, etc...
>
>
>
>The vaxx doesn't sterilize the disease, so it's going to
>mutate.
>and you simply can not inject people with an unknown chemical
>compound for each new mutation, in perpetuity.
>
>AND the pfizer product wears off after about 6 months.
>
>You can't inject an unknown chemical compound every 6 months
>into a large population, in perpetuity.
>
>NO ONE knows the long term side effects
>
>There appears to be some crossover point where certain
>co-morbidities overwhelm the protections supposedly offered by
>Pfizer's product.
>
>So solutions beyond the Pfizer product objectively MUST
>happen.
>
>They simply *have* to be developed.
>
>
>Thankfully, the global scientific community don't get their
>"science" from MSNBC, lol

  

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kayru99
Member since Jan 26th 2004
15935 posts
Fri Jan-07-22 02:55 PM

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153. "direct quote, 2nd paragraph from the link shared FROM PFIZER.COM"
In response to Reply # 152


          

"Mr. Smith, 54, *IS* the President and Chief Executive Officer (CEO) of Thomson Reuters and serves on its Board of Directors. Prior to his appointment as CEO in January 2012, he held various leadership positions at Thomson Reuters, including CEO and Chief Operating Officer (COO) of Thomson Reuters Professional Division. Prior to the acquisition of Reuters PLC by Thomson, he served as COO of Thomson and President and CEO of Thomson Learning’s Academic and Reference Group."


If you gonna chase around being pedantic as fuck, you need to do so, subtly

And there's no way you in hell you don't see the ethical problems this presents.

  

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Cold Truth
Member since Jan 28th 2004
42697 posts
Fri Jan-07-22 03:16 PM

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156. "There's a reason you linked an archived announcement "
In response to Reply # 153
Fri Jan-07-22 03:25 PM by Cold Truth

  

          

Instead of, you know, a link to the current "About" page.

https://www.pfizer.com/about/people/executives

Notice anyone missing?

Does the name or face of the person listed as Chief Executive Officer even remotely resemeble James C Smith to you?

Here are more sources for you:

https://www.bloomberg.com/profile/person/5634987
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-thomson-reuters-results/thomson-reuters-names-new-ceo-earnings-top-estimates-idUSKBN20J1LK
https://divergemedia.ca/2021/06/28/thomas-reuters-foundation-chairman-is-also-board-member-at-pfizer/

Do you need more?

The fact is, you made absolutely no effort to vet information that fed your addiction to conspiracies.

Also, here's a link to the current- not archived- page that tells you about the *current* leadership in place at the Thomson Reuters Foundation https://www.trust.org/about-us/

>If you gonna chase around being pedantic as fuck, you need to
>do so, subtly

There's nothing pedantic about correcting blatant misinformation.

But again- there's a reason you ran with an archived announcement, and not the live page. You jump on anything at all that feeds your conspiratorial leanings.

You can be is smug as you want, but in no way is it pedantic to correct your blatant and easily debunked misinformation. But then, it is easier to lash out instead of admit you were just, you know, wrong.

>And there's no way you in hell you don't see the ethical
>problems this presents.

I asked you for evidence to suport your collusion claims.

Do you have any? If so, we can discuss that.

  

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kayru99
Member since Jan 26th 2004
15935 posts
Fri Jan-07-22 06:32 PM

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160. "Bruh you cant be serious"
In response to Reply # 156
Fri Jan-07-22 07:00 PM by kayru99

          

I said he's on the board of directors at Pfizer, and CEO at Thompson-Rueters.

He CLEARLY IS on Pfizers Board:

As seen on this link, on Pfizers site to the Current Board of Directors:

https://www.pfizer.com/people/leadership/board_of_directors/james_smith


AND on the Bloomberg that YOU shared:
https://www.bloomberg.com/profile/person/5634987

And you're right, he's a former CEO of T/R...But current Chairman of the Board of the T/R Foundation...which is actually a *promotion* from CEO.

you're being a pedantic asshole.

And wrong.

And how you gonna link to page about how that's blatantly unethical and then ask me to prove collusion.

That's not a conflict of interest to you for the chairman of the board/former CEO of thompson-reuters to sit on the board of Pfizer, when Thompson-Reuters runs the fact checking portal on Pfizers vaxx product?

Seriously?

FOH

  

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Cold Truth
Member since Jan 28th 2004
42697 posts
Fri Jan-07-22 07:53 PM

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163. "Sigh. Steve Hasker is the current CEO Of Reuters."
In response to Reply # 160
Fri Jan-07-22 08:01 PM by Cold Truth

  

          

Whats funny is, I carelessly linked the Pfizer page instead of the Reuters page.

Of course, included the reuters link below it, but that was clearly a mistake on my part.

Yet, you’re still wrong. He isn't the CEO of Reuters. Steve Haskers is.

Hate to break it to you, but that Bloomberg link clearly lists him as the former CEO.

You know, like i said.

Sure, you went back and edited, but, as you said... you can't be serious😂

You're still here with your chest out, as though your previous post didn't read:

“ direct quote, 2nd paragraph from the link shared FROM PFIZER.COM”

No, this isn't pedantic. You got excited because you thought you had a smoking gun, and didn't bother to check the make and model before you submitted it as evidence of some unknown nefarious crime that you cannot seem to articulate, let alone prove.

Also, i never disputed that he was on the Pfizer board, and I told you he was on the board of their charitable foundation, not the other way around, so i have no idea whh you're acting like you made a point with those.

Also, you made a claim of collusion.

I asked for evidence that this relationship has impacted Reuters’ fact checking of Pfizer. It doesn't seem like you have any.

So we can conclude that you made an empty assertion with no actual supporting evidence.

Not that it’s surprising that you'd be so incredulous at the idea that you'd actually be pressed to prove your assertions, but damn... not even a pretense that you care about whether or not what you’re saying is actually true? Yikes.

  

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Hitokiri
Charter member
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Thu Jan-06-22 04:00 PM

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134. "LMAO. You fucking moron."
In response to Reply # 104


  

          

>Why were there more deaths in placebo group than vaxx group in
>Pfizer trial? How can such a product even get approved? Did
>you even know that?

You're an idiot. There's no way you understand how experiments work.

--
"You can't beat white people. You can only knock them out."

"There is only one god and his name is death. And there is only one thing we say to death: not today."

  

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The Mac
Member since Feb 11th 2008
1488 posts
Sat Jan-08-22 07:01 PM

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168. "Explain how they work smarty pants"
In response to Reply # 134


          

Care to explain or just ad hominem asshole bullshit?


https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34991109/

This is a nice new one, although I coulda told you this myself from the 10+ chicks and family members I know having menstrual problems post-vaccination. You prolly got a cousin with the same issue but you don't wanna talk about it b/c you'd rather hide in your little lies.

How does this one work? Care to explain or just attack?



https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1044767/Evidence_summary_-_face_coverings.pdf


What about this one? Is UK govt not a good enough source? Do you prefer TikTok Docs?


Ya'll still havent answered KEY questions and KEY data. Its flabbergasting. Just ATTACK ATTACK ATTACK but no responses STILL about...


1) Death data from VAERS, Canada, UK, EU, Israel and PFIZER CLINICAL TRIAL (that was LIED ABOUT via FACT CHECKING NON SOURCE IN THIS POST)

https://www.nejm.org/doi/suppl/10.1056/NEJMoa2110345/suppl_file/nejmoa2110345_appendix.pdf

When will somebody address this?


2) WHY ARE THERE HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF DOCTORS THAT ARE NOT PART OF "ScIeNCE" and are being censored? And why are you OK with this? They are simply all fringe psychos trying to kill people??


Theres so much more but ya'll just refuse to answer the studies and data and just keep coming with ad hominem attacks. It's disgusting.

Cause I'm doing better now, don't mean I never lost shit/ I was married to a state of mind and I divorced it -- Black Thought

  

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Mynoriti
Charter member
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Wed Jan-05-22 09:46 PM

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107. "dude came in here and proved your point to a tee"
In response to Reply # 102


  

          

  

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eclipsedInI
Member since Jul 29th 2002
92854 posts
Fri Jan-07-22 11:56 AM

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146. "he's like the biden didn't win & trump will be reinstated folks"
In response to Reply # 107


          

_____________________
puttin' the roota in the toota since 98'

  

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Reeq
Member since Mar 11th 2013
12708 posts
Wed Jan-05-22 10:22 PM

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108. "look at the anti vaxxers in *here*."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

yall wanna save these people?

lol jk.

------

  

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Brew
Member since Nov 23rd 2002
21756 posts
Thu Jan-06-22 09:42 AM

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110. "LOL !"
In response to Reply # 108


          

----------------------------------------

"Fuck aliens." © WarriorPoet415

  

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Cold Truth
Member since Jan 28th 2004
42697 posts
Thu Jan-06-22 01:43 PM

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113. "The irony is, they think they're saving themselves"
In response to Reply # 108


  

          

  

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Mynoriti
Charter member
36876 posts
Thu Jan-06-22 04:11 PM

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135. "it reminds me of peak okayactivist"
In response to Reply # 108


  

          

people trying to reason with 9/11 truthers

they just drown you in links and point to the countless engineers and demolition experts, and point to all shady shit our government has done these past decades/centuries.. You can chase down and debunk all that shit but it's not gonna matter. None of them ever gave up an inch on what they believed no matter what you lay out there. They'll just accuse you of that.

except this is worse because covid literally has affected everyone on earth, so naturally you're gonna find hundreds (THOUSANDS!) of rogue doctors or epidemiologists to push up against the grain...but relatively it's a tiny percentage.. and half the time when you look in to them, they're not even who they say they are.
ICUs all over the country all tell the same story but that doesn't matter to them either. They'll find an ICU doctor/nurse on youtube to prove it's all made up
"Oh did you hear about the indonesia study on ivermectin.. well if you don't know that".. you chase it down, find out its bs, they either ignore it, side step, throw more links at you, etc..

throw in social media, or general social climate/divisions/culture wars etc.. it's ripe for all this stupid shit

  

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Oak27
Member since Apr 17th 2005
12795 posts
Thu Jan-06-22 12:38 PM

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111. "NC hospitals say 100% of COVID-19 patients on ventilators are unvaccinat..."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

https://www.wral.com/coronavirus/nc-hospitals-say-100-of-covid-19-patients-on-ventilators-are-unvaccinated/20065686/

Getting vaccinated and boosted is the key to staying out of hospitals or becoming seriously ill from coronavirus, all three physicians urged. At WakeMed and UNC hospitals, 100% of COVID-19 patients on ventilators are unvaccinated, they said.

At all WakeMed hospitals, only 1 in 10 ICU patients are fully vaccinated, and at Duke, all the patients on ECMO, a form of life support used for only the sickest patients, are unvaccinated.

  

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Brew
Member since Nov 23rd 2002
21756 posts
Thu Jan-06-22 12:58 PM

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112. "It's a conspiracy. These docs are in cahoots w/Gates and making this all..."
In response to Reply # 111
Thu Jan-06-22 12:58 PM by Brew

          

.

----------------------------------------

"Fuck aliens." © WarriorPoet415

  

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Cold Truth
Member since Jan 28th 2004
42697 posts
Thu Jan-06-22 01:45 PM

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114. "BUT THE VACCINE IS NOT STOPPING TRANSMISSION!!"
In response to Reply # 112


  

          

AND THAT'S ALL THAT MATTERS!

NEVERMIND ALL THIS OTHER SHIT!

lol

  

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Ashy Achilles
Member since Sep 22nd 2005
4163 posts
Thu Jan-06-22 01:55 PM

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115. "lol"
In response to Reply # 114


          

  

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mikediggz
Member since Dec 02nd 2003
9584 posts
Thu Jan-06-22 02:07 PM

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117. "rgt."
In response to Reply # 114


  

          

  

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Mynoriti
Charter member
36876 posts
Thu Jan-06-22 02:13 PM

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118. "in CAPS so it's gotta be true"
In response to Reply # 114


  

          

  

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Brew
Member since Nov 23rd 2002
21756 posts
Thu Jan-06-22 02:53 PM

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125. "LOL. Fucking puds."
In response to Reply # 114


          

----------------------------------------

"Fuck aliens." © WarriorPoet415

  

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Mynoriti
Charter member
36876 posts
Thu Jan-06-22 01:59 PM

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116. "these people's main gripe is liberals are mean and oppressive"
In response to Reply # 112


  

          

comparing vaccine cards to the holocaust and shit

meanwhile allowing (overwhelmingly vaxxed/boosted) politicians, pundits, podcasters and youtubers to guide them toward a decision leading many of them to actual death over some warped sense of personal liberty

  

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Cold Truth
Member since Jan 28th 2004
42697 posts
Thu Jan-06-22 02:23 PM

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120. "but The Mac and kayru aren't like the others!"
In response to Reply # 116
Thu Jan-06-22 02:24 PM by Cold Truth

  

          

They have special, unique reasons!

Stop making them the other!

THEY'VE DONE THE RESEARCH HAVE YOU?

  

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Mynoriti
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36876 posts
Thu Jan-06-22 02:28 PM

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121. "wE ARE the ReSercH"
In response to Reply # 120


  

          

it's def a favorite meme, along with the star of david one

https://images.nvdteeshirt.com/2021/08/official-stop-saying-you-did-your-research-before-you-got-the-injection-you-are-the-research-t-shirt-shirt.jpg

  

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Brew
Member since Nov 23rd 2002
21756 posts
Thu Jan-06-22 02:53 PM

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126. "HAHAHAHA oh my god."
In response to Reply # 121


          

----------------------------------------

"Fuck aliens." © WarriorPoet415

  

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kayru99
Member since Jan 26th 2004
15935 posts
Fri Jan-07-22 06:44 PM

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161. "no. My gripe is liberal smugness about being vaxxed"
In response to Reply # 116


          

stands in the way of demanding the necessary public health changes and initiatives that would adequately deal with this disease that's killed about a million people in the US.

"Just get vaxxed" ain't a solution, *scientifically*.

Vaxxed catch & spread, and the vaxx loses efficiency after about 6 months.

You can't personal responsibility your way out of this.

To pretend that you can is sociopathic anti-politics.

Y'all being self-satisfied in your ignorance and refusal to think long-term is typical white liberal dumb shit, and about normal around here.

  

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Mynoriti
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36876 posts
Fri Jan-07-22 07:25 PM

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162. "your gripe is liberals"
In response to Reply # 161


  

          

  

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Cold Truth
Member since Jan 28th 2004
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164. "That, and getting facts straight"
In response to Reply # 162


  

          

  

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handle
Charter member
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165. "I see it now"
In response to Reply # 161
Fri Jan-07-22 09:03 PM by handle

          

You have poor judgement.

Nothing illegal with that.

------------


Gone: My Discogs collection for The Roots:
http://www.discogs.com/user/tomhayes-roots/collection

  

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Heinz
Member since Dec 26th 2003
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166. "LOL imagine potentially dying because of smugness"
In response to Reply # 161


  

          

  

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Amritsar
Member since Jan 18th 2008
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Sat Jan-08-22 08:57 AM

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167. "Oh look progressives are here to save us again"
In response to Reply # 161


  

          

_______________________________________________
"Mindless populism embodied by Trump and Sanders are like a malignant wart on our body politic"

  

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RandomFact
Member since Dec 10th 2005
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128. "i think people are annoyed bc the unvaxxed think they are uniquely woke"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

the frustration stems from people ignoring the worldwide medical consensus and not listening to scientists and epidemiologists who have spent their life dedicated to this stuff. and instead think they have a special insight because they watched a youtube video featuring someone with questionable credentials talking about vitamin d as a covid deterrent (ps: it's not).

and then a woke unvaccinated loudmouth like joe rogan gets it and "THROWS THE KITCHN SINK AT IT" by relying on experimental products created by big pharma. the irony with all of this becomes grating.

  

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Reeq
Member since Mar 11th 2013
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Thu Jan-06-22 03:14 PM

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129. "canadian airlines wont fly home maskless travelers from mexico flight."
In response to Reply # 0
Thu Jan-06-22 03:21 PM by Reeq

  

          

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/stranded-canadians-party-flight-mexico_n_61d740dee4b0bcd2195c9e5b

this is how we need to treat willful idiots. no more play fighting. welcome to the big leagues boys.

------

  

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Brew
Member since Nov 23rd 2002
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130. "Exactly."
In response to Reply # 129


          

>https://www.huffpost.com/entry/stranded-canadians-party-flight-mexico_n_61d740dee4b0bcd2195c9e5b
>
>this is how we need to treat willful idiots. no more play
>fighting. welcome to the big leagues boys.

My cousin said recently "what the hell are we gonna do tho, hold them down and put the needle in their arm ?" which is a fine question of course. But my answer was exactly this. Just make all aspects of their daily lives so impossibly miserable that they have to decide between dying at home alone or smartening up and rolling up their fucking sleeves like humans do.

----------------------------------------

"Fuck aliens." © WarriorPoet415

  

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dgonsh
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140. "this is a distraction and sexy story for the news media here"
In response to Reply # 129


  

          

they are absolutely idiots and should 100% be fined for anything illegal they did, but this story is such garbage. they bought out the whole plane. this wasnt 2 drunk idiots on a commerical flight filled with families and kids. if it was a private jet filled with celebs, we'd all say "rich pricks" and move on.

again, if they broke the law, punish them. but this has been ALL OVER cp24 (24 hour news channel in toronto) and social media so people can look at the flashy story of young, beautiful idiots behaving badly on a plane and say "how awful! i cancelled christmas with my kids so they could do this!". they were allowed to travel. that's on them.

why focus on sad stories of sick people having their tests and surgeries cancelled so (predominantly) willfully unvaxxed fucks can fill the hospitals

********************************************************************




"I *always* quote myself. I'm the only reliable source on *most* subjects" - OKP's First Lady of Knowledge, Janey

  

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Amritsar
Member since Jan 18th 2008
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Tue Jan-11-22 08:41 PM

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169. "Pariahs is how they should be treated "
In response to Reply # 129


  

          

_______________________________________________
"Mindless populism embodied by Trump and Sanders are like a malignant wart on our body politic"

  

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dgonsh
Member since Aug 14th 2002
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139. "dying of anything other than covid cause unvaxxed have all the beds"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

that is unacceptable to me.

i do not want anyone to die of covid, but i have zero patience for people with other illnesses having their surgeries and treatments cancelled to save space for overwhelmingly unvaccinated covid patients in our hospitals.

i promise the unvaccinated will get vaxxed if the mandates make it inconvenient for them. i have all the patience in the world for people from underserved or targeted communities have distrust of government handling vaccinations. if they've held off, fine, no time like the present!

the staunchly "i will die before you give me the vaccine" are rarer than we think. most unvaccinated will get it when they are totally ostracized from their communities or workplaces. i know a small segment will be stubborn, but most wont when push comes to shove.

the line in the sand should have been drawn 9 months ago.

********************************************************************




"I *always* quote myself. I'm the only reliable source on *most* subjects" - OKP's First Lady of Knowledge, Janey

  

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Heinz
Member since Dec 26th 2003
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Tue Jan-11-22 11:11 PM

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170. "Quebec is charging unvaccinated patients a tax"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-59960689.amp

  

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kfine
Member since Jan 11th 2009
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Wed Jan-12-22 01:10 AM

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171. "Yup. Austria also charging a fine of over 3000 euros per quarter "
In response to Reply # 170


          


that one remains unvacc'd:

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/austria-announce-details-planned-covid-19-vaccine-mandate-2021-12-09/


expensive af, but also entirely avoidable...

  

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Brew
Member since Nov 23rd 2002
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Wed Jan-12-22 12:49 PM

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172. "Love it. My company just got bought out by another company .."
In response to Reply # 171


          

... and my new company has a health insurance surcharge for the unvaxxed. I love it.

----------------------------------------

"Fuck aliens." © WarriorPoet415

  

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Oak27
Member since Apr 17th 2005
12795 posts
Wed Jan-12-22 05:24 PM

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173. "What health insurance companies should do"
In response to Reply # 172


  

          

is rather than market this as a tax/penalty for the unvaxxed is present the lower price for the vaccinate as a discount, so this way there is zero reason that the unvaxxed to put up a stink. They are simply paying the going rate and choosing not to take advantage of a discount.

  

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Brew
Member since Nov 23rd 2002
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Thu Jan-13-22 10:52 AM

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180. "Hm this sounds like a pretty good idea .."
In response to Reply # 173


          

.. but the anti vaxx crowd is so stupid they'd just be like "well I'm not paying *more*, so ..." haha.

But I see your point for sure.

----------------------------------------

"Fuck aliens." © WarriorPoet415

  

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Cold Truth
Member since Jan 28th 2004
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Thu Jan-13-22 11:21 AM

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182. "Oh they'll frame it as "special privliges for the sheeple""
In response to Reply # 173


  

          

"incentive to drink the Kool-Aid"

etc

They'll be wrong, as usual, but they'll still cry foul.

  

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Cold Truth
Member since Jan 28th 2004
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Wed Jan-12-22 10:09 PM

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175. "Are there provisions for those who simply cannot vaccinate for medical "
In response to Reply # 172


  

          

Reasons?

Not for religious or personal reasons, but they should be allowing provisions for those who are medically unable- with the proper verification, mind you.

  

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Brew
Member since Nov 23rd 2002
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Thu Jan-13-22 10:51 AM

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179. "Oh yes should've said that. They do have med exemptions."
In response to Reply # 175


          

>Reasons?
>
>Not for religious or personal reasons, but they should be
>allowing provisions for those who are medically unable- with
>the proper verification, mind you.

Def not religious or personal tho.

----------------------------------------

"Fuck aliens." © WarriorPoet415

  

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Cold Truth
Member since Jan 28th 2004
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Thu Jan-13-22 11:19 AM

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181. "Good. "
In response to Reply # 179


  

          

>Def not religious or personal tho.

double good on this.

  

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The Mac
Member since Feb 11th 2008
1488 posts
Wed Jan-12-22 07:06 PM

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174. "LOL ya'll are straight up fascists"
In response to Reply # 170


          

Gloating and happy to see discrimination at work.


Meanwhile more scientists speaking truth. Maybe this one ya'll will have an answer to, but most likely you will just reply that I'm an idiot!



Professor Ehud Qimron, head of the Department of Microbiology and Immunology at Tel Aviv University . Original letter in Hebrew: N12 News (January 6, 2022); translated by Google/SPR. See also: Professor Qimron’s prediction from August 2020: “History will judge the hysteria” (INN).

∗ ∗ ∗

Ministry of Health, it’s time to admit failure
In the end, the truth will always be revealed, and the truth about the coronavirus policy is beginning to be revealed. When the destructive concepts collapse one by one, there is nothing left but to tell the experts who led the management of the pandemic – we told you so.

Two years late, you finally realize that a respiratory virus cannot be defeated and that any such attempt is doomed to fail. You do not admit it, because you have admitted almost no mistake in the last two years, but in retrospect it is clear that you have failed miserably in almost all of your actions, and even the media is already having a hard time covering your shame.

You refused to admit that the infection comes in waves that fade by themselves, despite years of observations and scientific knowledge. You insisted on attributing every decline of a wave solely to your actions, and so through false propaganda “you overcame the plague.” And again you defeated it, and again and again and again.

You refused to admit that mass testing is ineffective, despite your own contingency plans explicitly stating so (“Pandemic Influenza Health System Preparedness Plan, 2007”, p. 26).

You refused to admit that recovery is more protective than a vaccine, despite previous knowledge and observations showing that non-recovered vaccinated people are more likely to be infected than recovered people. You refused to admit that the vaccinated are contagious despite the observations. Based on this, you hoped to achieve herd immunity by vaccination — and you failed in that as well.

You insisted on ignoring the fact that the disease is dozens of times more dangerous for risk groups and older adults, than for young people who are not in risk groups, despite the knowledge that came from China as early as 2020.

You refused to adopt the “Barrington Declaration”, signed by more than 60,000 scientists and medical professionals, or other common sense programs. You chose to ridicule, slander, distort and discredit them. Instead of the right programs and people, you have chosen professionals who lack relevant training for pandemic management (physicists as chief government advisers, veterinarians, security officers, media personnel, and so on).

You have not set up an effective system for reporting side effects from the vaccines and reports on side effects have even been deleted from your Facebook page. Doctors avoid linking side effects to the vaccine, lest you persecute them as you did to some of their colleagues. You have ignored many reports of changes in menstrual intensity and menstrual cycle times. You hid data that allows for objective and proper research (for example, you removed the data on passengers at Ben Gurion Airport). Instead, you chose to publish non-objective articles together with senior Pfizer executives on the effectiveness and safety of vaccines.

Irreversible damage to trust
However, from the heights of your hubris, you have also ignored the fact that in the end the truth will be revealed. And it begins to be revealed. The truth is that you have brought the public’s trust in you to an unprecedented low, and you have eroded your status as a source of authority. The truth is that you have burned hundreds of billions of shekels to no avail – for publishing intimidation, for ineffective tests, for destructive lockdowns and for disrupting the routine of life in the last two years.

You have destroyed the education of our children and their future. You made children feel guilty, scared, smoke, drink, get addicted, drop out, and quarrel, as school principals around the country attest. You have harmed livelihoods, the economy, human rights, mental health and physical health.

You slandered colleagues who did not surrender to you, you turned the people against each other, divided society and polarized the discourse. You branded, without any scientific basis, people who chose not to get vaccinated as enemies of the public and as spreaders of disease. You promote, in an unprecedented way, a draconian policy of discrimination, denial of rights and selection of people, including children, for their medical choice. A selection that lacks any epidemiological justification.

When you compare the destructive policies you are pursuing with the sane policies of some other countries — you can clearly see that the destruction you have caused has only added victims beyond the vulnerable to the virus. The economy you ruined, the unemployed you caused, and the children whose education you destroyed — they are the surplus victims as a result of your own actions only.

There is currently no medical emergency, but you have been cultivating such a condition for two years now because of lust for power, budgets and control. The only emergency now is that you still set policies and hold huge budgets for propaganda and psychological engineering instead of directing them to strengthen the health care system.

This emergency must stop!

Professor Udi Qimron, Faculty of Medicine, Tel Aviv University

Cause I'm doing better now, don't mean I never lost shit/ I was married to a state of mind and I divorced it -- Black Thought

  

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RandomFact
Member since Dec 10th 2005
8567 posts
Wed Jan-12-22 11:00 PM

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176. "THIS ONE DUDE HAS AN OPINION HE MUST BE RIGHT"
In response to Reply # 174
Wed Jan-12-22 11:18 PM by RandomFact

  

          

key word here being "OPINION."

seeing people have to dig so incredibly deep for this half-ass bullshit and then pass it off as unquestionable fact is pretty sad.

"for disrupting the routine of life in the last two years"

Yeah, man. People are inconvenienced during a fucking pandemic.

"There is currently no medical emergency"

Tell that to the loved ones of someone who has passed due to covid.





  

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Cold Truth
Member since Jan 28th 2004
42697 posts
Wed Jan-12-22 11:19 PM

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177. "What is this supposed to prove? It’s a gish gallop with no evidence"
In response to Reply # 174
Wed Jan-12-22 11:21 PM by Cold Truth

  

          

>Gloating and happy to see discrimination at work.
>
>
>Meanwhile more scientists speaking truth. Maybe this one
>ya'll will have an answer to

Answer to what? That’s A LOT TO respond to. You’re essentially flooding people with a torrent of claims, and folding your arms on some “checkmate”.

Honest question: you personally investigated each claim?

>Two years late, you finally realize that a respiratory virus
>cannot be defeated and that any such attempt is doomed to
>fail. You do not admit it, because you have admitted almost no
>mistake in the last two years, but in retrospect it is clear
>that you have failed miserably in almost all of your actions,
>and even the media is already having a hard time covering your
>shame.

I mean, everything up to this point is of no value at all.

>You refused to admit that the infection comes in waves that
>fade by themselves, despite years of observations and
>scientific knowledge.

Years? As in..... two? Or how many years?

We’re two years into this pandemic. Moreover, this is a rather broad statement.

You insisted on attributing every
>decline of a wave solely to your actions, and so through false
>propaganda “you overcame the plague.” And again you
>defeated it, and again and again and again.

I haven't seen any mainstream media in the U.S make this claim.

Perhaps this is true of Israeli media, but so what?

That one government- even most, even all- claims victory, all this would mean is that we can observe that this claim was false. Big whoop.

>You refused to admit that mass testing is ineffective, despite
>your own contingency plans explicitly stating so (“Pandemic
>Influenza Health System Preparedness Plan, 2007”, p. 26).

Here’s a problem: I googled this exact phrase and it’s nowhere on page one. Nothing with that exact name comes up, and I spot checked page 26 on a few, and turned up nothing supporting this claim.

And this is the only citation present.

>You refused to admit that recovery is more protective than a
>vaccine, despite previous knowledge and observations showing
>that non-recovered vaccinated people are more likely to be
>infected than recovered people.


>You refused to admit that the
>vaccinated are contagious despite the observations.

I haven’t seen this reported to be otherwise here jn the U.S. My understanding is that this is the consensus. More to the point, there are pro vax people in this very post- myself included- fully acknowledging this.

Again, perhaps the Israeli government or others is guilty of this, but even then, it’s hardly some gotcha! Moment.

Based on
>this, you hoped to achieve herd immunity by vaccination —
>and you failed in that as well.

We saw Sweden’s heard immunity strategy produce middling results, at best

https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2021-10-14/sweden-a-covid-success-story-or-a-failure-maybe-neither

Thing is, they are now aggressively vaxxed, with an aggressive passport and curfew policy:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/davidnikel/2022/01/10/sweden-introduces-new-covid-19-rules-the-situation-requires-it/amp/

Further, again, i cant speak to what hes saying in terms if Israel, but here in the US, large numbers of unvaxxed are a demonstrable problem:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cnbc.com/amp/2021/08/24/cdc-study-shows-unvaccinated-people-are-29-times-more-likely-to-be-hospitalized-with-covid.html

Once again, a critical mistake the antivaxx crowd- and this scientist, it seems, is making, is that transmission, in and of itself, is not the biggest problem.

Severity of infection is. The fact that unvaxxed people are significantly more like to have much more severe symptoms bears this out.

>You insisted on ignoring the fact that the disease is dozens
>of times more dangerous for risk groups and older adults, than
>for young people who are not in risk groups, despite the
>knowledge that came from China as early as 2020.

Again, this is preaching to the choir, as far as I know. As far as I’ve seen, the existence of these higher risk groups is often cited as a big reason to get vaccinated!

Moreover, this is stated as if those higher risk groups exist in a vacuum, apart from lower risk groups. That simply isn’t the case.

And those lower risk groups, are more likely to take more risks with this- making them likely to contract, and spread it TO those high risk groups. As i said earlier, severity of infection is a critical issue for the unvaxxed. And those higher risk groups remain at high risk if they're surrounded by unvaccinated people, even those at a lower risk rate.

>You refused to adopt the “Barrington Declaration”, signed
>by more than 60,000 scientists and medical professionals, or
>other common sense programs. You chose to ridicule, slander,
>distort and discredit them. Instead of the right programs and
>people, you have chosen professionals who lack relevant
>training for pandemic management (physicists as chief
>government advisers, veterinarians, security officers, media
>personnel, and so on).

A quick wiki of the Barrington Declaration turns up a dense mountain of criticism, with plenty of other scientists shooting it down. Much of this makes more sense than the heavy optimism of the Barrington Declaration.

It’s not inaccurate to say that the BD and the criticism shown in the wiki represent a decent summary of any argument you and I would have in this subject.

Anyhow, this is a lot. Below this, i see a handful of claims i have thoughts on, but i iust don't have the time or energy to parse out, read, find sources to provide substance for my thoughts, etc.

But that goes to my jnitial point here. This was a data dump, and a lot to expect anyone to spend any real time forming any semblance of a reasonable response.

Frankly, for that reason, it begs for a flippant rebuke more than thoughtful discourse. My reply to the BD portion sums it ip though: this letter does little to advance the discussion.

  

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Stadiq
Member since Dec 21st 2005
4398 posts
Thu Jan-13-22 01:13 PM

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184. "you just called for eugenics while calling people fascist"
In response to Reply # 174


          


"You insisted on ignoring the fact that the disease is dozens of times more dangerous for risk groups and older adults"

Lets put aside the fact that you posted ONE PERSON's unhinged open letter as some kind of gotcha.

What are you saying here by cosigning this bullshit??

"it only impacts high risk people" is some heartless right wing bullshit.

Why do those people not matter??

Have you thought out the impact that this has on people who are not at risk?? Hospitals full of old people and disposable immunocompromised people...do you think that won't impact others?

This letter referenced alleged psychological toll on kids...any idea what the toll would be on a kid who brought home a virus that ended up killing a loved one? Any thoughts on the emotional impact of that?

Any thoughts on long COVID, or "mild" things like my perfectly healthy friend who STILL CANT TASTE OR SMELL a year later??


On one hand, you have pro-vaxxers who are advocating for more consequences for those of you who still refuse to get a perfectly safe vaccine. Higher insurance rates, etc. Consequences for your choice that you are free to make.


On the other hand, you posted a letter that seems to be calling for a bunch more people to die so that perfectly healthy people are not inconvenienced, and for kids to not miss a few weeks of school.


Which one of those sounds more "fascist"?


Look, anyone saying the vaccine is the only answer/enough of an answer is being willfully ignorant and playing team politics. Focusing only on the vaccine has been a complete fucking failure on the part of this administration.


But yall large brained people who think you've figured something out that countless scientists, doctors, etc haven't fucking kill me.

You had to get any number of vaccines to go to school. To travel to other countries. To join the military. On and on.


And to say "I don't want to get it its too new" is some selfish, health-privileged bullshit.

As someone with a chronic illness that makes me high risk for COVID (so, disposable to many people including you apparently) let me tell you a secret- there could very well be a time in your life where you have to put faith in the medical community because you are out of choices.

The difference is to not do it this time also puts others at increased risk.

I guess my point is-

1. Don't confuse a letter you agree with as some kind of evidence for shit.

2. Don't go around calling people fascist while you post a letter calling for eugenics.

3. The vaccine is clearly not the only answer and claiming so has been catastrophic. But it does help. So people should get it or face consequences of their choice.



  

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The Mac
Member since Feb 11th 2008
1488 posts
Thu Jan-13-22 03:09 PM

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188. "Eugenics?? How Sway?"
In response to Reply # 184


          

Letting healthy people continue to live normal life is not eugenics.

Focusing on the immuno-compromised and elderly and providing the CORRECT treatments *hint hint, not vaccines* is not eugenics.


What I don't understand is all this talk about follow the science, Fuaci is GOD, they did nothing wrong / there's no smoking gun, collusion etc...

But we have the highest death count in the world. Per capita too. The richest nation in the world, with coffers full of medicines and vaccines and ventilators and doctors and experts and all the infrastructure you can want....and we are THE WORST. The only ones at our level are the Europeans with the same infrastructure and $$$

All these 3rd world countries with no ventilators, no hospitals, no resources - just some HCQ, IVM, people maskless living life and soaking up the sun - somehow all doing better. Across the world.

And then you say this is eugenics? YOUR PROGRAM IS THE ONE DOING THE MOST KILLING.


Nobody here has answered why REMDESIVIR IS THE ONLY TREATMENT STILL??

Nobody here is answering any of the PFIZER CLINICAL TRIALS STILL??? CT said he responded but didn't...

Ya'll keep spouting its safe but nobody has answered the VAERS, Canada, UK, EU, Israel, and Pfizer DEATH AND INJURY NUMBERS?


OK, sorry, bad article. But eugenics? Cmon. Your program is the worst in the world, and you cant keep blaming rednecks. Florida doing 10x better than NY, go figure.

Cause I'm doing better now, don't mean I never lost shit/ I was married to a state of mind and I divorced it -- Black Thought

  

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Stadiq
Member since Dec 21st 2005
4398 posts
Thu Jan-13-22 03:38 PM

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190. "do you understand how a virus works?"
In response to Reply # 188


          

>Letting healthy people continue to live normal life is not
>eugenics.
>
>Focusing on the immuno-compromised and elderly and providing
>the CORRECT treatments *hint hint, not vaccines* is not
>eugenics.
>

It absolutely its heartless bullshit to say "only groups xyz should worry, I'mm going to do me" when doing you can spread the virus to those groups.

How is this hard to get?

Sure, there should ALSO be more focus on treatments, testing, etc.

But to shrug off a very large group of people to push your narrative is ...as I said...some right wing bullshit.

And it also ignores the impact to the healthcare system.


So if we go with YOUR plan...and let everyone live their lives while we find treatments (LOL at you trusting pharma with treatments, but not vaccines btw...hellofa step)

Meanwhile old and high risk people die and fill up the hospitals.

How can you not see that writing off entire groups of people isn't completely fucked up?


So essentially...your plan is he current one minus vaccines...how is that better?

How?

Why do the high risk not matter? Old people?


Why?




>
>What I don't understand is all this talk about follow the
>science, Fuaci is GOD, they did nothing wrong / there's no
>smoking gun, collusion etc...

WTF are you talking about? I never said anyting about Fauci. Honestly, I think it would be best at this point to replace him for a variety of reasons.

I'm talking about an entire community of doctors, scientists, etc who are recommending the vax.

You get mad when others ignore a few loud contrarians, but why are you allowed to ignore the vast majority of experts??


Collusion? I'm not even going to entertain weirdo 4chan conspiracy bullshit.

The facts are there is a very dangerous/deadly virus currently circulating.

Yes it is far more dangerous to certain groups.


But those groups MATTER.


Right now an important step everyone can take to help is get vaccinated.


I'm not saying thats it. It isnt. And fuck anyone who says that it is.

But also, fuck anyone who is putting their own selfish fears of a safe vaccine over the common good.




>
>But we have the highest death count in the world. Per capita
>too. The richest nation in the world, with coffers full of
>medicines and vaccines and ventilators and doctors and experts
>and all the infrastructure you can want....and we are THE
>WORST. The only ones at our level are the Europeans with the
>same infrastructure and $$$

Yeah. The entire system is fucked, I agree with you.

But one of the reasons our levels are where they are is people like you who refuse to do something that could help.

Not the only reason. Honestly at this point, I wouldn't even say the biggest reason because the current administration is a fucking failure on the pandemic.

But a big reason.


>
>All these 3rd world countries with no ventilators, no
>hospitals, no resources - just some HCQ, IVM, people maskless
>living life and soaking up the sun - somehow all doing better.
> Across the world.

Wait, what? Please get off whatever websites you are getting your info from.

One thing our infrastructure allows for is testing, data, etc. You get that right?

You also get that climates/societies that allow for more outdoor (open air living will do better, yeah?


I could cherry pick countries with high vaccination rates and very strict lockdown measures that are also doing better.

You get that too right?


>
>And then you say this is eugenics? YOUR PROGRAM IS THE ONE
>DOING THE MOST KILLING.

THE VIRUS IS DOING THE KILLING

The response could be much much better. And our society could be much less selfish.

Here we are.



>
>
>Nobody here has answered why REMDESIVIR IS THE ONLY TREATMENT
>STILL??

I agree there should be a lot more treatment development, availability, etc. Go have that argument eslewhere.

It does not excuse you from not being vaxxed (with no consequence) tho

>
>Nobody here is answering any of the PFIZER CLINICAL TRIALS
>STILL??? CT said he responded but didn't...

Clinical trials? My man, look at real life. Take a step back. Think of the number of people who got this thing and the worst they had was feeling like shit for a day.

Cmon man.



>
>Ya'll keep spouting its safe but nobody has answered the
>VAERS, Canada, UK, EU, Israel, and Pfizer DEATH AND INJURY
>NUMBERS?

You know VAERS is self-reported, yeah? Not verified?


Also, do you want to talk COVID numbers, or nah?


You want treatments...do you think the treatments might have some adverse reactions?



Like I said above, it could be a day where you get presented with a situation where you have to put faith in your dr/the medical community.

Maybe even a new drug.


So take your privileged bullshit elsewhere.




>
>
>OK, sorry, bad article. But eugenics? Cmon. Your program is
>the worst in the world, and you cant keep blaming rednecks.
>Florida doing 10x better than NY, go figure.
>
>


It isn't my program. Mine would be vaccines + much more outreach/education on vaccines + more lockdowns + masking + more treatment development/capacity + increased healthcare capactiy + more consequences for anti-vaxxers + ...I could go on.



The "fascists" you replied to are simply saying you should have consequences for your action


Choose to be a selfish, science-denying, privileged asshole....maybe you should pay higher insurance fees and not be able to fly.

If the vaxx really is the mark of the beast...those should be small prices to pay.


So yeah I blame rednecks. I blame large brained conspiracy theorists. Selfish assholes who think the healthy should be able to live their lives like they couldn't literally kill people doing so.


And I blame the CDC. And I blame the admin.


Shit isn't just black and white.


You ignored a bunch of shit too, like long COVID in otherwise healthy people.



But yeah...everyone saying "let us healthy people get it poppin" is essentially saying large groups of people do not matter and it is worth them dying so I can go back to normal may as well be calling for eugenics.



  

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The Mac
Member since Feb 11th 2008
1488 posts
Thu Jan-13-22 04:26 PM

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191. "RE: do you understand how a virus works?"
In response to Reply # 190


          

>>Letting healthy people continue to live normal life is not
>>eugenics.
>>
>>Focusing on the immuno-compromised and elderly and providing
>>the CORRECT treatments *hint hint, not vaccines* is not
>>eugenics.
>>
>
>It absolutely its heartless bullshit to say "only groups xyz
>should worry, I'mm going to do me" when doing you can spread
>the virus to those groups.
>
>How is this hard to get?

>
>Sure, there should ALSO be more focus on treatments, testing,
>etc.
>
>But to shrug off a very large group of people to push your
>narrative is ...as I said...some right wing bullshit.

Where did you get "shrug off old people?" I said FOCUS on them. That's literally the opposite of shrug off.

I'm saying shrug off young people who don't get the virus (kids) or don't get affected by it (anybody under 40-50 w/o 4 comorbidities)

NOT shrug off old people or people w comorbidities. Which is also a thing ya'll don't seem to want to address.


>
>And it also ignores the impact to the healthcare system.
>
>
>So if we go with YOUR plan...and let everyone live their lives
>while we find treatments (LOL at you trusting pharma with
>treatments, but not vaccines btw...hellofa step)
>


I don't trust Pharma at all, personally haven't even taken an Advil in 10+ years, basically since teenager.

Thats just anecdotal though and doesnt matter. My point is moreso that we should be looking at the success of IVM and HCQ - cheap, unpatented drugs - vs the failure of remdesivir and vaccines - which also happen to be generating billions DIRECTLY to Fauci (literally, personally to him) and Big Pharma

https://hcqmeta.com/
https://c19ivermectin.com/

Prove these are wrong



>Meanwhile old and high risk people die and fill up the
>hospitals.
>
>How can you not see that writing off entire groups of people
>isn't completely fucked up?


Where do you get this from? Find one quote.


>
>So essentially...your plan is he current one minus
>vaccines...how is that better?
>
>How?
>
>Why do the high risk not matter? Old people?
>
>
>Why?

Again, find one quote. I'm literally saying the exact opposite.


>>
>>What I don't understand is all this talk about follow the
>>science, Fuaci is GOD, they did nothing wrong / there's no
>>smoking gun, collusion etc...
>
>WTF are you talking about? I never said anyting about Fauci.
>Honestly, I think it would be best at this point to replace
>him for a variety of reasons.
>
>I'm talking about an entire community of doctors, scientists,
>etc who are recommending the vax.
>
>You get mad when others ignore a few loud contrarians, but why
>are you allowed to ignore the vast majority of experts??
>
>
>Collusion? I'm not even going to entertain weirdo 4chan
>conspiracy bullshit.
>
>The facts are there is a very dangerous/deadly virus currently
>circulating.
>
>Yes it is far more dangerous to certain groups.
>
>
>But those groups MATTER.
>
>
>Right now an important step everyone can take to help is get
>vaccinated.
>
>
>I'm not saying thats it. It isnt. And fuck anyone who says
>that it is.
>
>But also, fuck anyone who is putting their own selfish fears
>of a safe vaccine over the common good.
>

PROVE ITS SAFE.

>
>>
>>But we have the highest death count in the world. Per capita
>>too. The richest nation in the world, with coffers full of
>>medicines and vaccines and ventilators and doctors and
>experts
>>and all the infrastructure you can want....and we are THE
>>WORST. The only ones at our level are the Europeans with
>the
>>same infrastructure and $$$
>
>Yeah. The entire system is fucked, I agree with you.
>
>But one of the reasons our levels are where they are is people
>like you who refuse to do something that could help.
>
>Not the only reason. Honestly at this point, I wouldn't even
>say the biggest reason because the current administration is a
>fucking failure on the pandemic.
>
>But a big reason.
>
>
>>
>>All these 3rd world countries with no ventilators, no
>>hospitals, no resources - just some HCQ, IVM, people
>maskless
>>living life and soaking up the sun - somehow all doing
>better.
>> Across the world.
>
>Wait, what? Please get off whatever websites you are getting
>your info from.

>
>One thing our infrastructure allows for is testing, data, etc.
> You get that right?
>
>You also get that climates/societies that allow for more
>outdoor (open air living will do better, yeah?
>
>
>I could cherry pick countries with high vaccination rates and
>very strict lockdown measures that are also doing better.

NAME EM....

>
>You get that too right?
>
>
>>
>>And then you say this is eugenics? YOUR PROGRAM IS THE ONE
>>DOING THE MOST KILLING.
>
>THE VIRUS IS DOING THE KILLING
>
>The response could be much much better. And our society could
>be much less selfish.
>
>Here we are.
>
>
>
>>
>>
>>Nobody here has answered why REMDESIVIR IS THE ONLY
>TREATMENT
>>STILL??
>
>I agree there should be a lot more treatment development,
>availability, etc. Go have that argument eslewhere.

Why elsewhere? We are here...why ya'll keep dismissing these simple arguments?


>
>It does not excuse you from not being vaxxed (with no
>consequence) tho
>
>>
>>Nobody here is answering any of the PFIZER CLINICAL TRIALS
>>STILL??? CT said he responded but didn't...
>
>Clinical trials? My man, look at real life. Take a step
>back. Think of the number of people who got this thing and
>the worst they had was feeling like shit for a day.
>
>Cmon man.
>

I'm looking at real life and seeing my double vaccinated + boosted people getting more sick than me. Getting sick once a month. I see them going on planes and to work SICK AF "but I'm vaxxed so I'm good" ...they think they operate on a different plane now.

I see 10+ probably 20 homegirls who haven't had their period in 6 months. I got homies with rashes and stomach problems. I got more homies that died of overdoses this year all under 35 than anybody dying of COVID.

I see people scared to leave their house and going around in double masks and boosted still getting COVID. I see unvaccinated, unmasked people doing just fine.


>
>>
>>Ya'll keep spouting its safe but nobody has answered the
>>VAERS, Canada, UK, EU, Israel, and Pfizer DEATH AND INJURY
>>NUMBERS?
>
>You know VAERS is self-reported, yeah? Not verified?

Ya and about 80% is NOT self reported but Dr reported and they are verified by CDC, thus week lag time. Also according to some *possibly dubious* studies, its been historically very UNDERreported.

Funny you leave out the data from Canada Europe etc...

>
>
>Also, do you want to talk COVID numbers, or nah?

Died with or FROM COVID? Cases with 35+ cycle threshold and no system for dealing w duplicates (one guy, 5 positives happened like to 20 ppl this week) and false positives?

>
>
>You want treatments...do you think the treatments might have
>some adverse reactions?

HCQ and IVM have literally been used for decades, they have no adverse reactions. This is in a million studies and REAL LIFE as you say.

>
>
>Like I said above, it could be a day where you get presented
>with a situation where you have to put faith in your dr/the
>medical community.
>
>Maybe even a new drug.
>
>
>So take your privileged bullshit elsewhere.


Sure thing bud.

>
>>
>>
>>OK, sorry, bad article. But eugenics? Cmon. Your program
>is
>>the worst in the world, and you cant keep blaming rednecks.
>>Florida doing 10x better than NY, go figure.
>>
>>
>
>
>It isn't my program. Mine would be vaccines + much more
>outreach/education on vaccines + more lockdowns + masking +
>more treatment development/capacity + increased healthcare
>capactiy + more consequences for anti-vaxxers + ...I could go
>on.
>

LOL more lockdowns more testing more masks more fear and paranoia more hysteria...THAT SHIT DIDNT WORK!!! It dont work!!!!


>The "fascists" you replied to are simply saying you should
>have consequences for your action
>

>
>Choose to be a selfish, science-denying, privileged
>asshole....maybe you should pay higher insurance fees and not
>be able to fly.
>

Ya'll still havent replied to any of the science presented against the narrative. Ya'll dont reply to the hundreds of IVM and HCQ studies, ya'll dont reply to the BS clinical trials, etc etc etc


>If the vaxx really is the mark of the beast...those should be
>small prices to pay.
>

I said that?


>
>So yeah I blame rednecks. I blame large brained conspiracy
>theorists. Selfish assholes who think the healthy should be
>able to live their lives like they couldn't literally kill
>people doing so.
>
>
>And I blame the CDC. And I blame the admin.
>
>
>Shit isn't just black and white.
>
>
>You ignored a bunch of shit too, like long COVID in otherwise
>healthy people.
>
>
>
>But yeah...everyone saying "let us healthy people get it
>poppin" is essentially saying large groups of people do not
>matter and it is worth them dying so I can go back to normal
>may as well be calling for eugenics.


Nah thats what you want it to mean. I'm actually saying the opposite.


You want to lockdown and mask kids, which has proven to do more harm then good. I want them to live and grow. They don't get sick or die, leave them alone. Focus on the obese and elderly.

You want quarantines and mass testing and vaccines on everybody, I'm saying use that on the group that needs it. It's literally what the Israeli doctor said above. Use it on who NEEDS it, so they survive. Help them out tirelessly and as effectively as possible. Use all the tools we have at our disposal to save them.

Wasting a trillion tests on 20 healthy 20 year olds, masking 10 year olds, vaccinating 5 year olds when Africa as a continent is at like 5%...that shit don't scream "science" "health" or "end the pandemic" to me.

Locking down the world but not locking down McDonalds is funny style. Needing a vaccine card to buy some beers is BS. Wearing a mask through the door but taking it off at the table is laughable.

Ya'll dismiss cheap therapy b/c its linked to Trump and conspiracy but ya'll don't see the studies. YOU are blinded by politics.

Again -
https://hcqmeta.com/
https://c19ivermectin.com/

You say look at real life but don't see that USA and Europe with all the resources and lockdowns in the world are doing worse than countries living freely and just giving cheap shitty drugs and keeping people alive.

Blindly following Big Pharma, Big Tech and this shitty ass govt that fucked us over since Day 1 is not the solution. They walked us down this road and now we are stuck at boosters that don't work. There are *preprint* studies now showing the vaccines have a NEGATIVE effect against Omicron.

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.12.20.21267966v3.full

Lockdowns masks tests vaccines all have proven not to work. And you want to double down on the suicides, drug overdoses, unemployemnt, mental health, stunted growth, no breathing, scared of people horseshit we been doing for 2 years.





Cause I'm doing better now, don't mean I never lost shit/ I was married to a state of mind and I divorced it -- Black Thought

  

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auragin_boi
Member since Aug 01st 2003
20873 posts
Fri Jan-14-22 11:46 AM

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204. "I got time today...do you know why you lose this argument?"
In response to Reply # 191


  

          

Because you don't grow, wouldn't concede...even when any of your points are thoroughly shot down. You're entrenched in your emotional paranoid beliefs and constantly hunt your echo-chamber for anecdotal evidence of discord in the scientific community to support your faulty narrative.

You
-throw out scientist who question the approach...fair but you ignore the overwhelming number of scientist who support the approach...disingenuous/agenda guilty
-Move the goal post whenever something is effectively addressed with "what about this, you didn't address that!"
-Expect people to disprove your stance and back their stance with facts and numbers (which you'd ignore anyway) but don't take effort to do ANY of that yourself.
-Link up opinion pieces by foreign doctors, translated from a language you probably don't speak, allow all that to influence your stance but then expect people to respect whatever slither of potential validity of a point you might have.
-But then, aggressively attack anyone elses opinions on the matter like they are invalid.

You my, friend, don't debate in good faith. But still...here goes...

>Where did you get "shrug off old people?" I said FOCUS on
>them. That's literally the opposite of shrug off.

Your suggestion literally puts all the people you said 'focus on' at risk because more people will carry and transmit the disease. You literally just said your vaxxed friends are walking around and operating like they are good but still contracting COVID (which by the way, is not how you should move during a pandemic even being vaxxed so your friends are at fault here, not the world) so if EVERYONE operated that way, the most vulnerable of us would STILL catch it and could potentially die from it.

More spread = more exposure = more death.

>I'm saying shrug off young people who don't get the virus
>(kids) or don't get affected by it (anybody under 40-50 w/o 4
>comorbidities)

this is a flat out lie. Kids are catching COVID rapidly in schools systems at this very moment. While they tend to catch is less often, they are still the most likely spreaders given schools are typically a haven for germ/virus spread.

And the demo that's contracted COVID at the highest rates are 18-49 year olds. And this data isn't hard to find.

>NOT shrug off old people or people w comorbidities. Which is
>also a thing ya'll don't seem to want to address.

Old people already have to be cautious given their advanced age...as well as those with compromised immune systems. The current solution is to find a way to slow spread (it won't be completely eliminated and no one ever claimed that's what a vaccine does) and develop treatments for/to prevent advanced, more damaging infection developments. You're saying this doesn't work and we should just let everyone catch it living their everyday lives...which would in turn allow for more spread (and potential mutation)...while focusing all our efforts on the elderly and immunocompromised but this skates on the fact that letting the virus run rampant without any slowing/treatment options for the mass public increases the risk to those you're saying we should focus on.

>I don't trust Pharma at all, personally haven't even taken an
>Advil in 10+ years, basically since teenager.

And this is the crux of everything you spout...and it shows. I'm not saying you should or shouldn't but you can't argue against the merits of someone else's stance on this without understanding this primary part of your intellectual DNA. This alone won't allow you to see logic in a solution based in Pharma because you will forever not trust it.

>Thats just anecdotal though and doesnt matter.

But it does matter because you are debating people about this topic.

My point is
>moreso that we should be looking at the success of IVM and HCQ
>- cheap, unpatented drugs - vs the failure of remdesivir and
>vaccines - which also happen to be generating billions
>DIRECTLY to Fauci (literally, personally to him) and Big
>Pharma
>
>https://hcqmeta.com/
>https://c19ivermectin.com/

if IVM and HCQ are widespread solutions, cheap and were readily available to address this viral outbreak and are effective beyond all other measures...why wasn't this a widespread and marketed solution within the what 8-9 months before we had a vaccine? Why hasn't the bulk of the scientific community said..."that's the way to go with this"?

Do you think doctors and scientist like seeing people die en masse so they just kept this under wraps the entire time?

>Prove these are wrong

^^^And there goes your BS. "I can't prove this works and can only point to anecdotal evidence that it might have potential...and nothing concretely from you know, the actual USA, but YOU prove it's not a solution!!!"

It's a disingenuous way to debate and it wouldn't convince you even if someone factually and efficiently shot it down.

But to address the actual links; it's a positive that there are other studies and drugs being examined to treat COVID. The point is to get multiple solutions going so that we can downgrade this to an endemic and then classify COVID like we do the flu. But that's a process. And if the scientific community overwhelmingly says "until we get to that point, be cautious...get vaccinated and boosted, wear mask, social distance, be careful not to gather in big crowds often, if people have to be in an enclosed space with others for extended periods, make sure they are vaccinated to minimize death and spread (notice I didn't say eliminate because that's not possible with most viruses like this), stay way from others when infected, send people remote if there's a severe outbreak in a community to slow spread." Then we should definitely be listening to that too.

>Where do you get this from? Find one quote.

Your suggested approach. That's where.

>>So essentially...your plan is he current one minus
>>vaccines...how is that better?
>>
>>How?
>>
>>Why do the high risk not matter? Old people?
>>
>>
>>Why?
>
>Again, find one quote. I'm literally saying the exact
>opposite.

No, you're not saying the exact opposite. You are saying do away with vaccines which have a years worth of data now that say they are affective in

1. Slowing the spread of COVID
2. Decreasing severe reaction to COVID (hospitalization)
3. Decreasing the rate of death due to COVID base pneumonia

Notice, I did not say stop the spread or eliminate the reactions or deaths...because that's not what vaccines typically do. And no other suggestion you've made can do those things as effectively as the current vaccine (and other suggested protective measures). None of them.

>PROVE ITS SAFE.

^^^There it is again. The BS. There's data on over 80% of the US that says it's mostly safe. Again, you can't speak in absolutes with medicine because there will always be someone who's adversely affected by it. The drugs you have suggest likely have side effects to and adverse effects on some as well. But to answer your question, the data is the proof that it's safe.

Now, you prove that 80% of the USA is at high risk of immuno-illness due to the vaccine. Right. The best you could do here is anecdotal studies of 'potential' risk, which ALL medicines have.



>>I could cherry pick countries with high vaccination rates
>and
>>very strict lockdown measures that are also doing better.
>
>NAME EM....

Instead, why don't you point to the countries that have similar populaces to ours (city density, way of life, healthcare infrastructure issues, vaccine and pandemic deniers, etc) that employ your suggested method/treatments and are doing better than the US.

I'll save you the trouble, you can't.

>Why elsewhere? We are here...why ya'll keep dismissing these
>simple arguments?

Because you're not debating in good faith.

>I'm looking at real life and seeing my double vaccinated +
>boosted people getting more sick than me. Getting sick once a
>month. I see them going on planes and to work SICK AF "but
>I'm vaxxed so I'm good" ...they think they operate on a
>different plane now.

As I said earlier, your friends are the problem. The vaxx doesn't mean you should take more risk. It means your better protected but should still minimize risk. You get vaxxed and go to parties every weekend for a month or do excessive air travel, then yeah, you're going to still get exposed. And I would think if you aren't doing what they are doing then logic says you wouldn't get sick as often as they do. Mind you, it's also cold and flu season so someone getting sick once a month who's taking risk may be getting exposed to more than just COVID. But you know, your anecdotal assessment of why they are getting sick is devoid of these nuances and logic because you want your narrative to be the right one.

>I see 10+ probably 20 homegirls who haven't had their period
>in 6 months. I got homies with rashes and stomach problems.
>I got more homies that died of overdoses this year all under
>35 than anybody dying of COVID.

I call BS on this. Cap #1, I find it hard to believe any full grown adult has a circle of 20 people (let alone of one gender) that they keep up with that will willingly volunteer what's going on with their menstrual cycles. Secondly, there's absolutely NO way you can accurately attribute any of that to the COVID vaccine exclusively and conclusively. None of their doctors have told them that (if it's true and it's not). My wife is vaccinated, most of my female coworkers are too. I know first hand my wife still menstruates and none of my co-workers have reported issues with the vaccine in said nature (I work in HR and we've had some dialogue to our workforce regarding vaccines...they have a open floor to push back or inform us of side effects of this nature so we can redirect if such things occur...not ONE such complaint or concern). So there, anecdotal evidence to combat yours.

Cap #2, your homies got rashes and stomach problems and this is the vaccines fault? Have any of these guys had COVID? Has a medical professional told them that their current issue is 100% directly related to the vaccine? C'mon bruh. Do better.

>I see people scared to leave their house and going around in
>double masks and boosted still getting COVID. I see
>unvaccinated, unmasked people doing just fine.

A bit of fear is normal in a pandemic. There are people who never go on planes that are afraid of flying. Such is life. Again, vaccines don't stop you from getting COVID, it reduces the potential to contracted and reduces the likelihood of severe symptoms/hospitalization/death. Why do you keep saying that like it's some proof that the vaccine doesn't work? And some of those that are unvaccinated and unmaksed are doing fine. And then there's a swath of them in the hospital on a ventilator or in the morgue. Only a child sees the world in absolutes bruh.

>>You know VAERS is self-reported, yeah? Not verified?
>
>Ya and about 80% is NOT self reported but Dr reported and they
>are verified by CDC, thus week lag time. Also according to
>some *possibly dubious* studies, its been historically very
>UNDERreported.
>
>Funny you leave out the data from Canada Europe etc...

You know ~80% of the US is vaccinated right, you know majority of them aren't having any reactions to the vaccine right? You know having the vaccine is reducing hospitalizations and severe reactions in that group drastically vs unvaccinated COVID contractors right?

Let's believe the stats shall we?

>>Also, do you want to talk COVID numbers, or nah?
>
>Died with or FROM COVID? Cases with 35+ cycle threshold and
>no system for dealing w duplicates (one guy, 5 positives
>happened like to 20 ppl this week) and false positives?

WTF are you talking about bruh?

>HCQ and IVM have literally been used for decades, they have no
>adverse reactions. This is in a million studies and REAL LIFE
>as you say.

They haven't been used for decades to fight COVID-19 because it's a 2 year old virus. And again, if this was the solution, the scientific community had 9 months to present it BEFORE vaccines. And also again, it's great if they work. They can be part of the entire solution wheel we are constructing to fight this thing and downgrade it. It doesn't have to be an either or. And lastly, we should STILL be doing what we're doing if it provides additional protections (which all of our suggested practices do) until a clearly defined protocol on how to treat COVID has been established.

>LOL more lockdowns more testing more masks more fear and
>paranoia more hysteria...THAT SHIT DIDNT WORK!!! It dont
>work!!!!

Remote work and school should be a tool in communities where there's a drastic outbreak, testing makes perfect sense in detecting outbreak. And it absolutely worked. What the hell is your idea of 'working'? IF it's 100% stop of the spread, infection and death then nothing will work. Stop applying zero sum judgement on something that won't be zero summed any time soon. AND, there's data that says it did work. Cases dropped drastically, death rates slowed. Why you lying Craig?

>Ya'll still havent replied to any of the science presented
>against the narrative. Ya'll dont reply to the hundreds of
>IVM and HCQ studies, ya'll dont reply to the BS clinical
>trials, etc etc etc

I did. You still won't admit you're wrong (even if not completely), pharma paranoid and really just an asshole who doesn't want to inconvenience your life that really doesn't care about the safety of others (that aren't in your immediate circle). I'd actually respect that truth if it wasn't thinly veiled behind a mountain of anecdotal BS smoke screens.

>You want to lockdown and mask kids, which has proven to do
>more harm then good. I want them to live and grow. They
>don't get sick or die, leave them alone. Focus on the obese
>and elderly.

Lies. They do get sick and die.

https://www.kdrv.com/features/healthwatch/10-year-old-girl-dies-of-covid-19-days-after-contracting-the-virus/article_75a576af-3dd0-5294-93f8-6c77b27e8a21.html

Stop lying to provoke your agenda.

All of this has a psychological effect on people. It's a pandemic, it will have negative effects. But I'm 1000% sure, watching 900K people die affects them much worse.

>You want quarantines and mass testing and vaccines on
>everybody, I'm saying use that on the group that needs it.
>It's literally what the Israeli doctor said above. Use it on
>who NEEDS it, so they survive. Help them out tirelessly and
>as effectively as possible. Use all the tools we have at our
>disposal to save them.

Yet, earlier you argued that the method (vaccines, masking, social distancing) doesn't work. You argued that the vaccinated are still catching COVID and getting it worse than the unvaccinated. Make up your mind. Why should we do this for the elderly and immunocompromised if they don't work? That's a logic fail. And yes, the elderly pass at a higher rate than everyone else from COVID but they don't catch it more. 18-49 year olds catch it more...and WE spread it to the elderly. I just gave you an article about a 10yr old who died from COVID. So, all of us are just supposed to take the risk then huh? I mean, if a vaccination could have saved that child, are we not supposed to do so? If vaccinations slow spread, contagion and severe illness (which in turn slows mutations and exposure to the ederly) are we not supposed to do it? Because why? You and a few outlier docs don't agree with the inconvenience?

>Wasting a trillion tests on 20 healthy 20 year olds, masking
>10 year olds, vaccinating 5 year olds when Africa as a
>continent is at like 5%...that shit don't scream "science"
>"health" or "end the pandemic" to me.

Resistance is the name of the game. Controlling spread, slowing severe infections, slowing death. That's moving in the right direction. 900K dead and counting doesn't say 'end the pandemic' to me either. And with your approach, we'd have more than that (especially when a variant more deadly to the rest of us develops as a result).

>Locking down the world but not locking down McDonalds is funny
>style. Needing a vaccine card to buy some beers is BS.
>Wearing a mask through the door but taking it off at the table
>is laughable.

People need to eat, drive throughs work. *shrug*, Needing a vaccine card to enter a store is perfectly ok...you need ID to buy beer right? You comply with that because the powers that be decided you needed to be of an age to drink safely (which is BS, because legal drinkers are more dangerous than underage drinkers) so comply with it until the powers that be deem it safe to be in a store to buy a beer safely. Uh huh. And if the table is partitioned and distanced from other patrons, it's perfect fine to dine out. It's exactly the same set up we have at work. Mask in common areas, partitions on cubicles, de-masking at your work station or in your office. Mask up for proximity discussions.

What's the problem? Your feeling inconvenienced. That's it.

>Ya'll dismiss cheap therapy b/c its linked to Trump and
>conspiracy but ya'll don't see the studies. YOU are blinded by
>politics.

Anything linked to Trump and conspiracy should be dismissed. lol The person that said COVID was a Democratic hoax, COVID would go away by (insert date), ran an inept response to the pandemic, ran to the hospital for the most advanced experimental treatment when he caught it and STILL kept up the facade for a while, barely blinked when one of his staunchest supporters (Herman Cain) contracted and died from it after attending one of his rallies doesn't deserve an ounce of leeway in this discussion.

I'm good with anything that has good data to back it up as a treatment. The problem here is, you're dismissing what's already working and has data to support it because you'd rather point to treatment drugs that have shown some slight promise and to b!tch about being inconvenienced because the vaccine doesn't eliminate 100% of COVID related issues.

>You say look at real life but don't see that USA and Europe
>with all the resources and lockdowns in the world are doing
>worse than countries living freely and just giving cheap
>shitty drugs and keeping people alive.
>
>Blindly following Big Pharma, Big Tech and this shitty ass
>govt that fucked us over since Day 1 is not the solution. They
>walked us down this road and now we are stuck at boosters that
>don't work. There are *preprint* studies now showing the
>vaccines have a NEGATIVE effect against Omicron.
>
>https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.12.20.21267966v3.full

RESULTS
By December 12, 2021, there were 5,767 identified Omicron cases in Denmark with a median age of 28 years (93% <60 years). Among those who had most recently completed primary vaccination, VE against Omicron was 55.2% (95% confidence interval: 23.5 to 73.7%) and 36.7% (−69.9 to 76.4%) for the BNT162b2 and mRNA-1273 vaccines, respectively, but with evidence of rapid waning over the course of five months. By comparison, VE against Delta was significantly higher and better preserved over the same period (see Figure and Table).

^^^This is from the very article you linked bruh...some notes:
1) Most people who caught COVID are younger than 60 with a median age of 28. So the biggest age group catching it aren't the elderly.
2) The study confirms the vaccines were VERY effective against the Delta variant (which was much more deadly than Omicron). But it says it's also 55% and 36% effective against Omicron depending on which vaccine you have. This means the vaccines are effective and work...at least to some degree against Omicron and to a higher degree against Delta.
3) Effectiveness wears off after 5 months...which is par for the course of most vaccines. Flu vaccines are designed to get you through flu season (4-6 months) and you have to re-up every year. Do you not know how vaccines work?

>Lockdowns masks tests vaccines all have proven not to work.
>And you want to double down on the suicides, drug overdoses,
>unemployemnt, mental health, stunted growth, no breathing,
>scared of people horseshit we been doing for 2 years.

LOL - silly, YOU just proved they do from your article. That whole last paragraph you typed is BS bruh. Suicide, drug overdoses, unemployment, mental health have all always been a thing. Anything related to the pandemic could use some additional health professional focus so yes, we should strategize to address those things but don't act like they go away if we all go out on the street with no mask or vaccines and frolic in the streets. Mass death due to illness has the same effect. Stunted growth? *shrug* and no breathing is laughable. "waaaah, I don't like mask" is what that sounds like.

The reason most countries that are doing better at this than us are doing better at it is because they don't have such a contentious populace who won't simply do what the scientist and doctors suggest.

Conspiratorial dissenters hopped up on political misinformation basking in 1st world grievances over inconvenience and devoid of empathy for their neighbors are the biggest hurdle to us moving on. Always have been.

Period.

____________

  

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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
72020 posts
Thu Jan-13-22 08:59 AM

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178. "its over.. unless people start falling out in public like in the movies"
In response to Reply # 0


          

people aren’t going to go into lock down or change their habits.

The death rate is too low and the current symptoms are too mild.

and you have world leaders and politicians getting caught breaking the rules they have in place when it comes to lockdowns.

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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Vex_id
Charter member
65197 posts
Thu Jan-13-22 11:32 AM

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183. "There finally seems to be an admission that we need a new Covid policy"
In response to Reply # 0


          

across the political spectrum. Even Dems are calling for a reset:

https://www.politico.com/news/2022/01/11/democrats-covid-strategy-526924

"Democrat, Rep. Ro Khanna of California, has called for a new chief at CDC — someone who “really has the respect of the public health community, and has been right on a lot of the calls.”

Public trust in the CDC is at an all-time low. Fauci & Walensky have botched a lot of the messaging and haven't had consistent conviction in any policy recommendation (outside of vaccination).

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/01/10/rochelle-walensky-is-not-good-this/

The recent email leaks from Collins & Fauci (re: origin of the virus; Wuhan lab leak) cast serious doubts about whether Fauci has been forthright with the public about gain-of-function research (funded by taxpayers) and the origins of this pandemic.

We need new public health leadership. It's been a failure on all fronts.

New CDC data on Omicron shows that this variant doesn't discriminate:

New data released by the CDC shows who omicron is impacting.

Of 43 cases reported the first week of December:

58% were young people between 18 and 39 years old.
79% were vaccinated, including 14 people who received a booster dose.
16% had been infected with COVID-19 before.
33% had traveled internationally
1 person, who is vaccinated, was hospitalized

Source: https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7050e1.htm

There's new data of the booster's efficacy waning in just 10 weeks against Omicron:

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/12/23/health/booster-protection-omicron.html

This isn't exactly persuasive data to call for boosters-for-everyone - especially when you consider how mild this variant is. Out of this micro-study, only one person was hospitalized (incidentally - the person was vaccinated). The notion that we would booster younger/healthy people for a 10 week benefit against symptomatic Omicron (which is already mild) doesn't make much sense. All of these booster shots should be re-routed across the world to those who haven't had their first doses, with a focused approach targeting older/immunocompromised.

We (hopefully) are trending towards the endemic phase of the pandemic, which means our policy also needs to change. We won't boost our way out of this.

  

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Heinz
Member since Dec 26th 2003
20478 posts
Thu Jan-13-22 01:13 PM

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185. "I don't agree with all of this"
In response to Reply # 183


  

          

>across the political spectrum. Even Dems are calling for a
>reset:
>
>https://www.politico.com/news/2022/01/11/democrats-covid-strategy-526924
>
>"Democrat, Rep. Ro Khanna of California, has called for a new
>chief at CDC — someone who “really has the respect of the
>public health community, and has been right on a lot of the
>calls.”
>
>Public trust in the CDC is at an all-time low. Fauci &
>Walensky have botched a lot of the messaging and haven't had
>consistent conviction in any policy recommendation (outside of
>vaccination).

Just Dems looking for another scapegoat to what they think is overwhelming backlash of their handling of the virus or vaccine. Fauce has been fine and everything he said were true to the data in that MOMENT. Whether it was initially don't mask or mask up. These were decisions made as they started to learn about the virus as more data came in every day. There is this weird notion from the public that scientists should have the answers and solutions and anythign they say needs to be in absolutes. THAT part is on us. We need to stop blaming our stupidity as a soceity on others. It's the same thing we hear with misinformation and tech. Yeah it's Twitter and Facebook's fault Americans are so easily manipulated by posts by bots that end up in the cycle of stupid that is society. If you most of the stupid information swirling on the internet then you must have also believed that Elivis was still alive in the 90s and spotted all over the world because you read it in the National Enquirier at the check out line LOL foh.

>https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/01/10/rochelle-walensky-is-not-good-this/
>
>The recent email leaks from Collins & Fauci (re: origin of the
>virus; Wuhan lab leak) cast serious doubts about whether Fauci
>has been forthright with the public about gain-of-function
>research (funded by taxpayers) and the origins of this
>pandemic.

....stop it. I know you are big into conspiracy theories. Stop it. There is no credible smoking gun on this yet. Stop acting like there is.


>
>We need new public health leadership. It's been a failure on
>all fronts.

I can agree with this. I don't think Fauci should be removed but I think better communication needs to be implemented. Start acting like society is stupid and talk to them like they are.


>New CDC data on Omicron shows that this variant doesn't
>discriminate:
>
>New data released by the CDC shows who omicron is impacting.
>
>Of 43 cases reported the first week of December:
>
>58% were young people between 18 and 39 years old.
>79% were vaccinated, including 14 people who received a
>booster dose.
>16% had been infected with COVID-19 before.
>33% had traveled internationally
>1 person, who is vaccinated, was hospitalized

It's still way early to say it's MILD. They even just started saying that maybe we should stop saying that altogether as new data is showing that Omicron is making kids a higher risk for diebetes now. The data is early but it's strong enough that it's being further looked at to be peer reviewed.

https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/experimental-lilly-drug-neutralizes-omicron-lab-slightly-higher-risk-diabetes-2022-01-10/

https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/966291

>58% were young people between 18 and 39 years old.
>79% were vaccinated, including 14 people who received a
>booster dose.
>16% had been infected with COVID-19 before.
>33% had traveled internationally
>1 person, who is vaccinated, was hospitalized

This isn't news or new. All this shows is that the vaccine designed to work against the original strain needs to be modified, which they are doing. It's not useless but its not as effective. Like the flu shot. We aren't taking the same flu shot we took when we were 5. It's the same fucking thing.

>Source: https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7050e1.htm
>
>There's new data of the booster's efficacy waning in just 10
>weeks against Omicron:
>
>https://www.nytimes.com/2021/12/23/health/booster-protection-omicron.html
>
>This isn't exactly persuasive data to call for
>boosters-for-everyone - especially when you consider how mild
>this variant is. Out of this micro-study, only one person was
>hospitalized (incidentally - the person was vaccinated). The
>notion that we would booster younger/healthy people for a 10
>week benefit against symptomatic Omicron (which is already
>mild) doesn't make much sense. All of these booster shots
>should be re-routed across the world to those who haven't had
>their first doses, with a focused approach targeting
>older/immunocompromised.
>

This acutally does mean you should get boosted with the current vaccine until the new one designed to work against Omicron and further mutations is released. It's a guessing game. But to say ths isn't persuasive datta to call for boosters is a stupid statement.

>We (hopefully) are trending towards the endemic phase of the
>pandemic, which means our policy also needs to change. We
>won't boost our way out of this.

We are at where we are at because we MOSTLY boosted our way out of this. This wasn't the result of natural immunity or causes LOL. WTF are you even talking about.



  

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Vex_id
Charter member
65197 posts
Thu Jan-13-22 07:02 PM

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193. "no surprise there"
In response to Reply # 185


          


>Just Dems looking for another scapegoat to what they think is
>overwhelming backlash of their handling of the virus or
>vaccine. Fauce has been fine and everything he said were true
>to the data in that MOMENT.

There's always a political element at play. But I think the 2022 midterms are more relevant than "dems looking for another scapegoat" -- but as to Fauci: we'll have to agree to disagree there. There's been a paternalistic dynamic to how he leads - to where he feels you really don't need to understand what's happening; you just need to take his word for it. That perhaps could work if he'd been more consistent (and accurate) in his messaging - and if he would be open to more nuance, encouraging scientific debate/exploration. But it's been a one-size fits all prescription that hasn't produced great results.

Whether it was initially don't
>mask or mask up. These were decisions made as they started to
>learn about the virus as more data came in every day.

With regards to his statement early on that "masks don't really do much" -- he later claimed that the only reason he said this was because he wanted to ensure health care workers had enough PPE. But that begs the question: shouldn't he be making recommendations solely on public health merits? If masks worked - and he knew they worked - how could he knowingly endanger millions of lives by lying to the public, when he knew that masks were effective at reducing transmission? Seems that he made a political calculation there, not a data-driven calculation.

But we've also come around to a more sensible understanding on masks. That is: that most of the masks being worn (and how they're being worn) do not have a significant enough impact on reducing transmission as was originally purported. There are only a few types of masks that are effective at stopping transmission, and there should've been far stronger efforts to ensure Americans had access to those masks than just a broad, vague mask mandate that didn't care if you wore a piece of cloth over your mouth or an N95.

Also - both he and Walensky repeatedly said that if you were vaccinated, covid-19 would "stop with you" because you wouldn't transmit the virus, and likely wouldn't even get the virus if vaccinated. Their claims on the vaccines fell flat, and the purported efficacy of the vaccines (to halt transmission) didn't bear fruit. There also hasn't been enough focus on treatments - be it monoclonal antibodies, anti-virals, or other methods to deal with symptomatic disease.

Yeah it's Twitter and Facebook's
>fault Americans are so easily manipulated by posts by bots
>that end up in the cycle of stupid that is society. If you
>most of the stupid information swirling on the internet then
>you must have also believed that Elivis was still alive in the
>90s and spotted all over the world because you read it in the
>National Enquirier at the check out line LOL foh.

There's more misinformation floating about now than ever - but that comes in all directions and flavors. Claiming that Covid vaccines don't work and present grave dangers is misinformation. But also - grossly overstating the risk of Covid-19 in kids (as Justice Sotomayor just egregiously did) is also misinformation. The question we need to ask is: why are we (as Americans) so poorly informed? Has legacy media done a good job at helping us to be literate of the issues/events occurring in our world? No, which is why you have droves of people now gathering their data/information from all corners of the internet.

This is why institutional integrity is so important. People are not losing faith in our institutions simply because they are stupid - as you purport - but it's also because institutions have objectively failed in important areas such that distrust is warranted.


>>The recent email leaks from Collins & Fauci (re: origin of
>the
>>virus; Wuhan lab leak) cast serious doubts about whether
>Fauci
>>has been forthright with the public about gain-of-function
>>research (funded by taxpayers) and the origins of this
>>pandemic.
>
>....stop it. I know you are big into conspiracy theories. Stop
>it. There is no credible smoking gun on this yet. Stop acting
>like there is.

"Credible smoking gun" on what? We're simply talking about the leaked communications from Collins & Fauci where they refer to renowned, highly credible experts/scientists from Oxford, Harvard & Stanford as "fringe" simply because they had a different perspective on the pandemic.

We are also talking about emails where they clearly dissuade inquiry into the lab leak theory. Why would you prejudice any theory at the onset, particularly when (in this instance) it's just as viable for Sars-CoV-2 to be the product of a lab-leak as it is for it to be from zoonotic transmission from a wet market. There's nothing "conspiratorial" about wanting to investigate that. If the concern is on the science alone, you would encourage all investigation with urgency - as understanding the origin-point would help in developing therapeutics/vaccines/treatments.

So this idea (offered early on) that even referring to the possibility of it being a lab-leak was a "conspiracy theory" was a political calculation, not a scientific one. They even admitted this when the justification for silencing debate on the lab-leak theory was because it may threaten "regional harmony." Given that there is a link with EcoHealth, the CDC, and gain-of-function research in Wuhan -- it's absurd to *not* want to investigate whether it was leaked (intentionally or unintentionally).

Under Obama, gain-of-function research was largely deemed too dangerous - and it's extraordinarily controversial scientific research. If that was at all responsible for this pandemic, we need to know. It wasn't until Trump came into office (in 2017) when the fed lifted its ban gain-of-function studies.

>I can agree with this. I don't think Fauci should be removed
>but I think better communication needs to be implemented.
>Start acting like society is stupid and talk to them like they
>are.

Fauci has had his time. Succession planning is a huge problem in our national leadership. Collins stepped down, it's time for Fauci to move on. We need a fresh voice on this.

>It's still way early to say it's MILD.

I want to clarify on this. I wasn't referring to it as "mild" in the sense that it's not something to be concerned of. It's causing a lot of havoc. I'm speaking of relative severity in comparison to Delta - which was more severe by all metrics. So relative to Delta, it's mild. But it's a sizeable threat/risk. The sheer case numbers and transmissibility of it are alarming.

They even just started
>saying that maybe we should stop saying that altogether as new
>data is showing that Omicron is making kids a higher risk for
>diebetes now. The data is early but it's strong enough that
>it's being further looked at to be peer reviewed.

I saw that - and it's concerning. But there are also a lot of health changes happening, especially with younger children, that signal a general decline of overall health, and not necessarily related to the Covid virus itself. For example, there's a wild increase in pediatric obesity rates right now:

https://www.physiciansweekly.com/cdc-study-finds-alarming-increase-in-pediatric-obesity-rates-5-points-for-physicians-to-understand-2

There are also concerns of the pandemic's effect on early childhood cognitive development:

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.10.21261846v1.full.pdf

>This acutally does mean you should get boosted with the
>current vaccine until the new one designed to work against
>Omicron and further mutations is released. It's a guessing
>game. But to say ths isn't persuasive datta to call for
>boosters is a stupid statement.

We'll see how the data plays out. It's very clear that being fully vaccinated mitigates your risk if you get Covid. If you're fully vaccinated (but not boosted) - you still retain a lot of the protection against Omicron as it pertains to severe disease. If you've had Covid and are vaccinated, you're even more protected.

The vaccines are leakier than they were purported to be re: preventing transmission. There's nothing wrong with acknowledging that. Variants emerge, and we need to be flexible in both our changing understanding of the virus and in our policy-making. I don't think we've done a good job at that for the most part.

Israel is an interesting case right now. They are one of (if not *the*) the most vaccinated/boosted nation on Earth right now - and they are even saying they need a reset as well, as their approach hasn't been able to stop the pandemic from roaring at record high rates.

Some scientists there have expressed concern about Israel trying to boost its way out of the pandemic:

"But some scientists warned that the plan could backfire, because too many shots might cause a sort of immune system fatigue, compromising the body’s ability to fight the coronavirus. A few members of the government’s advisory panel raised that concern with respect to the elderly, according to a written summary of the discussion obtained by The New York Times."

Source: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/12/23/world/middleeast/israel-vaccine-4th-dose.html

>>We (hopefully) are trending towards the endemic phase of the
>>pandemic, which means our policy also needs to change. We
>>won't boost our way out of this.
>
>We are at where we are at because we MOSTLY boosted our way
>out of this. This wasn't the result of natural immunity or
>causes LOL. WTF are you even talking about.

lol TF? How have we "mostly boosted our way out of this?" A distinct minority of the world even has access to efficacious boosters. So the notion that we even have enough data to credit boosters for getting us out of anything is wildly premature.

But as to "wtf I'm talking about" - I'm directly referencing the chief of the World Health Organization, WHO Director-General Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus - who said - word-for-word - "No country can boost its way out of the pandemic":

https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20211222-no-country-can-boost-its-way-out-of-pandemic-who-chief

"Blanket booster programmes are likely to prolong the pandemic, rather than ending it, by diverting supply to countries that already have high levels of vaccination coverage, giving the virus more opportunity to spread and mutate,"

Tedros acknowledged that third doses might be necessary for at-risk groups, but said: “We do not want to see widespread use of boosters for healthy people who are fully vaccinated.” And he's right. It makes no sense to boost fully vaccinated people who are younger/healthy when so much of the world's population remains unvaccinated.

Even if you could boost every American - right now - it still will not solve the problem in a transient, inter-connected world. There has to be a global effort; wealthy nations cannot hoard booster shots and expect to make inroads in the global effort until there's more equity in efficacious vaccine distribution.




-->

  

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bentagain
Member since Mar 19th 2008
16056 posts
Thu Jan-13-22 02:11 PM

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186. "Any consideration for the racial disparities in the unvaxxed?"
In response to Reply # 0
Thu Jan-13-22 02:14 PM by bentagain

  

          

I A$$ume your sentiment is toward the willingly unvaccinated
But I've seen this stance interpreted as racist given the disparities in the unvaxxed broken down by race

https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#vaccination-demographic

compounded by the disparities that were inherent in healthcare to begin with...this statement..

"let the good citizens rock and let the riff raff fend for themselves"

...hits a little different

Frontline/essential/service/etc...workers...again...I don't think this plays out the way you think

https://twitter.com/MagisterBracey/status/1481390585466527753?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet

$.02

---------------------------------------------------------------

If you can't understand it without an explanation

you can't understand it with an explanation

  

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Tiger Woods
Member since Feb 15th 2004
17413 posts
Thu Jan-13-22 03:08 PM

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187. "tx for sharing. Very underreported part of the whole Covid story"
In response to Reply # 186


  

          

  

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The Mac
Member since Feb 11th 2008
1488 posts
Thu Jan-13-22 03:11 PM

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189. "Another thing they won't answer"
In response to Reply # 186


          

Trump bans China travel - RACIST. **even though it was proven to have originated in China no matter what theory you believe in**

Biden bans South Africa - crickets. Literally no response to that post. **even though it was PROVEN to not have originated in SA, but DISCOVERED there**

Ya'll just don't want to answer the hard questions and prefer to circle jerk calling us idiots.

Cause I'm doing better now, don't mean I never lost shit/ I was married to a state of mind and I divorced it -- Black Thought

  

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kayru99
Member since Jan 26th 2004
15935 posts
Fri Jan-14-22 09:27 AM

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203. "Bruh, it's legit coon shit"
In response to Reply # 186
Fri Jan-14-22 09:29 AM by kayru99

          

mufuckas want their gold star for good behavior, and don't give a fuck about the actual science of what's happening, why it's happening, and to whom.

Smug, racist, liberal assholes

  

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Reeq
Member since Mar 11th 2013
12708 posts
Thu Jan-13-22 06:06 PM

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192. "look how idiotic this joe rogan clip is. "
In response to Reply # 0
Thu Jan-13-22 06:07 PM by Reeq

  

          

people trust this guy for medical info.

https://twitter.com/FullContactMTWF/status/1481638689415462916

these people really think a vaccine is more likely to cause a heart condition than the virus that has had strains that WE KNOW have explicitly attacked the cardiovascular system (obviously including the heart).

zero common sense.

first the absolute arrogance when the guest counters his claims. then just the dismissal of entire sources of information once his claims are proven factually and statistically dead wrong.

the clip cuts off but you can tell hes starting to go the vaers system talking point. its popular among the right. its an open comment system where literally anyone can post anything about their vaccine experience. so of course it can be flooded with a bunch of spam/misinformation and just generally clueless/uninformed people giving their experiences/conditions that they attribute to the vaccine.

facts dont exist for these people. whenever they find something that confirms their already existing bias on an issue...they just adopt it and regurgitate it with zero scrutiny. but then when they get a glimpse of reality that contradicts their false perspective...well then we gotta question the entire process of scientific hypothesis and fact gathering lol.

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Vex_id
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Thu Jan-13-22 07:22 PM

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194. "This has been one of the most frustrating parts of the pandemic"
In response to Reply # 192


          

The myocarditis argument in particular has been maddening. Of course we should be concerned about adverse events after vaccination - including potential myocarditis risks in young people. But the proportional risk analysis people cite defies logic when they simply cannot acknowledge that the virus itself poses more of a myocarditis risk than the vaccine, and it's really not close.

This idea offered (largely by "health/life coach influencer" types) that the vaccine is so dangerous and something you should fear, while dismissing Covid as a hoax and/or nothing to be concerned of, has resulted in really bad proportional risk perceptions during the pandemic.

-->

  

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Reeq
Member since Mar 11th 2013
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Thu Jan-13-22 08:32 PM

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195. "yeah it shows how asymmetric the competing information environments are."
In response to Reply # 194


  

          

i was talking about myocarditis as an acute and long term consequence of covid back in *summer* 2020.
https://board.okayplayer.com/okp.php?az=show_topic&forum=8&topic_id=2714716&mesg_id=2714716&listing_type=search#2717462
https://board.okayplayer.com/okp.php?az=show_topic&forum=8&topic_id=2714716&mesg_id=2714716&listing_type=search#2717590
https://board.okayplayer.com/okp.php?az=show_topic&forum=8&topic_id=2714716&mesg_id=2714716&listing_type=search#2719137

it was the reason that several medical panels for college sports conferences initially sought to cancel their seasons. but the condition was rarely mentioned in any sports coverage as the specific risk to athletes that required canceling games and nobody on the general cable news shows were bringing it up. so if you werent the type of person who actually went and researched this type of information from medical findings/professionals (like the overwhelming majority of the american public refuses to do) then you had no idea that any of this exists and had never heard of myocarditis.

there were actually a few college athletes who either died who or had to suspend their careers due to heart related episodes after testing positive for covid. but nobody made a big deal out of it and the college sports basically just bulldozed through the science/risks and put their cash cows back out on the field/court anyway.

meanwhile...antivaxxers saw myocarditis mentioned a few times as a proportionally/exceedingly rare risk to young people who get vaccinated...and now its a fucking household name to them lol.

these mfs will ignore data that shows 90+% this or 90%+ that when it comes to shit that supports stances that contradict their misinformed perspective. but these niggas got rare unicorn side effects among a miniscule segment of the population and obscure studies from a discredited doctor in india memorized as their trump card to prove theyre 'right' lol.

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bentagain
Member since Mar 19th 2008
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Fri Jan-14-22 04:27 AM

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197. "It's not a JRE virus"
In response to Reply # 195


  

          

There aren't MAGA/Faux News/Trumpster/Proud Boys variants

How would what you're proposing in the OP NOT play out how it did in the initial wave

... you remember the refrigerated trucks in BX to warehouse black/brown bodies

?

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If you can't understand it without an explanation

you can't understand it with an explanation

  

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Reeq
Member since Mar 11th 2013
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Fri Jan-14-22 04:43 AM

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198. "vaccines werent available in the intial wave. "
In response to Reply # 197
Fri Jan-14-22 04:44 AM by Reeq

  

          

im not sure what youre asking.

since the op is addressing the current circumstance under different conditions.

also misinformation and vaccine hesistancy arent limited to the folks you listed or a specific race.

once again...im not sure exactly where youre tryna go with your reply.

can you spell it out further?

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bentagain
Member since Mar 19th 2008
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Fri Jan-14-22 04:46 AM

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199. "RE: vaccines werent available in the intial wave. "
In response to Reply # 198
Fri Jan-14-22 04:48 AM by bentagain

  

          

https://twitter.com/MagisterBracey/status/1481390585466527753?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet

It's not limited to anything, even the vaccinated

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you can't understand it with an explanation

  

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bentagain
Member since Mar 19th 2008
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Fri Jan-14-22 07:26 AM

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200. "Do you need further explanation?"
In response to Reply # 198


  

          

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If you can't understand it without an explanation

you can't understand it with an explanation

  

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bentagain
Member since Mar 19th 2008
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Fri Jan-14-22 05:34 PM

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207. "You really ducking to post Joe Rogan clips <side eye>"
In response to Reply # 198


  

          

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you can't understand it with an explanation

  

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kayru99
Member since Jan 26th 2004
15935 posts
Fri Jan-14-22 10:01 PM

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208. "Reek is paid to be a mouthpiece"
In response to Reply # 207


          

  

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bentagain
Member since Mar 19th 2008
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Mon Jan-17-22 07:08 AM

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210. "I was trying to give dude the benefit of the doubt"
In response to Reply # 208


  

          

Hoping he misspoke of off emotion
That I could understand
Almost everyone is frustrated by the situation I a$$ume
But to duck and run from your own post...
IDK, you may be right
Never liked how heavy handed he was in political posts
But...MFers cosign his BS
<shrug>

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Vex_id
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Fri Jan-14-22 12:53 PM

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