The one thing that is always bugged me about the universal Beyoncé adoration is that it seems forced. Like people love Beyoncé, the concept, more than her music. I don’t think you would find a lot of people who would argue that she has a better discography than say, Mary J Blige, and to be perfectly honest, it’s probably not a slam dunk to put it over Rihanna‘s.

So what do you old people say? Does she have the discography to match her status?

(thats not a diss btw)

The woman is just special. I'm a stan though
======================================
http://www.zuitomedia.com/

would measure her status solely on her discography??

And are you talking whole albums?
Singles?
HIT singles?
Destiny's Child factored in?
Collaborations?
Influence?
Musical trend setting?

I'm not saying you necessarily have to be a FAN....but...it takes some strong hate to suggest that she isn't deserving of the space in the entertainment industry that she currently enjoys....


"Get ready....for your blessing....."
"Bury me by my Grand-Grand and when you can come follow me"

Her influence is more aesthetic in the musical. She’s really not all that influential of a musician. That may very well be because she’s impossible to duplicate, but may also have a lot to do with the fact that despite her stardom, she was never really a hit machine. If you survey the popular music landscape, Rihanna‘s influence is far more easy to spot. Dua Lipa doesn’t happen without Rihanna.

I was thinking of this after reading the question below about who her contemporaries are.

She's been around for a while, and depending on which era of Beyonce we're talking about one could argue she's been more influential than the artists who've come and gone during her various periods.

So for example, there was a time when DC was competing for airtime with Britney Spears... and I'm sure people would have said Britney Spears' pop sound was more "influential" than DCs. There was also a time when both Beyonce and Amerie charted with similar Rich Harrison beats, and neither of them really owned that sound (yet). But if you were to ask people today who out of Britney Spears, Amerie, or Beyonce has been more influential... a majority would probably say Beyonce. In part bc she's maintained relevance.

Another thing is, maybe Beyonce's influence is more difficult to measure because we haven't truly had a Beyonce-less musicscape yet lol

Beyonce jacked it, to the point where some of younger people think One Thing is a Beyonce song.

You're exactly right, they would say it sounds like Beyonce.

Which is crazy bc Bey kinda only really dabbled in the go-go; I think Amerie could have taken the sound a lot farther/bigger if she'd blown up like Beyonce had.

Oh well tho. But that takes us back to the influence thing - Beyonce basically did the one song with that Rich Harrison sound vs Amerie + Rich collaborating on multiple, but bc Beyonce's single was so much bigger and career-defining her CIL sound is deemed more influential.

"Get ready....for your blessing....."
"Bury me by my Grand-Grand and when you can come follow me"

I used to make this point about her alot until I realized that the segment of people who worship her don't care so much about the quality of the music. Or, they like her music alot. To them, all that stuff sounds great. She's an aspirational figure for her fans and that's cool. Once I accepted that I stopped arguing about the quality of her music and just let folks worship her in peace.

But like...that album is some hit (HIT) singles and a lot of bland concept tracks, same as all the other split personality "double albums" that were starving careers of their momentum around that time.


But the argument isn't usually that the album is great, or even good. It's just that it has "Single Ladies" and "Halo" on it, so OF COURSE it was the best ALBUM of that year. I know the U.S. has returned to a mostly singles oriented culture but that just feels unnecessary to me. Especially when the answer is clearly New Amerykah, lol.


~~~~~~~~~
"This is the streets, and I am the trap." � Jay Bilas
http://www.popmatters.com/pm/archive/contributor/517
Hip Hop Handbook: http://tinyurl.com/ll4kzz

She can sing and perform, but yeah her songs and albums never did much for
me for the most part.

Bc ya, like others have said, I think her 'status' is due in part to multiple other dimensions than just discog. And even if some would rank her discog as comparable to other singers like MJB, Rih, etc... she likely demolishes them in those other dimensions.

Few other superstar artists match the resources and thoughtfulness she puts into her visual art practice, as mentioned... Especially the way it's evolved over the years to projects like Lemonade, Lion King, etc

Then, her technical excellence. She's almost never off-key or off-beat. Even in footage of her rehearsing. Even in footage of her working through new choreography or whatever. It must happen lol, but there's so little evidence. And many past collaborators have commented on her unmatched work ethic and dedication to her craft.

And her showmanship as well. Beychella etc. I forget what had me looking at old MJ footage one day, but I remember marveling at how much of a *rock star* he was. So not just his talent and precision/excellence... but the sheer spectacle and suspense he incorporated into his live performances and also (probably most uniquely) his presentation costume-wise, like with the gold armor and military glam thing he had going on. And I wondered which female pop superstars could even be considered the equivalent, and Janet truly was the only person. But for modern-day pop (say, peaking this millenium), Beyonce is the *only* superstar who's really even attempted that same level of grandiosity - particularly with spectacle and presentation. Beychella for example, with the fully choreographed concert band, pyrotechnics, lasers, etc and very clear theme with respect to her costumes and merch and all that on top of her flawless technical performance and the theatrics. You would think others have done similar but if you try and find examples, some may have spectacle but lack the technical precision, some may have technical precision but mediocre showmanship etc. Beyonce really tried to deliver that level of showmanship for younger generations.

And I'm not even a huge Beyonce stan tbh, tho I like her. I copped a few DC and Bey albums in my younger years. But the evidence doesn't lie. I respect her and what she's accomplished and believe she's def earned said status.

I agree entirely.

----------------------------------------

"Fuck aliens." © WarriorPoet415

>And I'm not even a huge Beyonce stan tbh, tho I like her. I
>copped a few DC and Bey albums in my younger years.

________________________________________
"Take the surprise out your voice Shaq."-The REAL CP3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2H5K-BUMS0

Yeah, this just about sums it up.

Lurk everyday.. Post once a month..

That says a lot

______________________________________

Navem nu, cuando sol
Tutu nu, vondo nos nu
Vita em, no continous non
Nos nu ekta nos sepe ta, amen

When the sun shades the ship
We sweat and life is not safe
To swim or to touch not
When we unite we hedge amen

>

______________________________________

Navem nu, cuando sol
Tutu nu, vondo nos nu
Vita em, no continous non
Nos nu ekta nos sepe ta, amen

When the sun shades the ship
We sweat and life is not safe
To swim or to touch not
When we unite we hedge amen

She was the It Girl for a minute

https://www.nytimes.com/2003/07/06/arts/music-the-solo-beyonce-she-s-no-ashanti.html

"They used to call me Baby Luke....but now? The whole damn 2 Liiiive Crew."

just wondering if Beyonce outlasted them all and thats why you posed the question.

IMO besides Rihanna its hard to think of any woman who has been able to keep up with her as far as fame is concerned.

but vocally, she is pretty much unfuckwitable.

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

Mya and Ashanti were competition in the early days. Ciara had a run too.

the visual companions to both of them and with what was going on in her personal life being reflected in the music
I saw it happen with my own eyes with my wife

______________________________________

Navem nu, cuando sol
Tutu nu, vondo nos nu
Vita em, no continous non
Nos nu ekta nos sepe ta, amen

When the sun shades the ship
We sweat and life is not safe
To swim or to touch not
When we unite we hedge amen

I think Lemonade in particular helped her appeal to a certain type who wasn't a rabid fan already. That's certainly the project I like most by her. I always thought I'd like her more later music more if she went darker or acoustic or something. Which she did for that project.


But she definitely had a cult base stemming from DC, and the Beyhive phenomenon really took off after she went solo. I agree Lemonade and later expanded her fanbase but it never started there.

Black women been riding with her for a loooong as time.

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

--

"You can't beat white people. You can only knock them out."

I only like her last two albums. The rest are just the same recycled hip-pop yodeling. Not really a fan of her recent stuff.

But her concerts are fire!

Rise & Shine
Thrive & Grind
Heart & Mind

She's probably in the top 10 most famous people in the world.

She sells a ton of records.

Her concerts are always sold out.

She's Rolling Stones level.

So , yes, she is.

------------


Gone: My Discogs collection for The Roots:
http://www.discogs.com/user/tomhayes-roots/collection

"They used to call me Baby Luke....but now? The whole damn 2 Liiiive Crew."

>

Grammy's are a popularity contest. So are RRHOF.

So is any vote unless you limit the voters to a group of people YOU identify that agree with YOUR assessment.

Maybe start you own awards - not snark, do that, then say she can't have one.

------------


Gone: My Discogs collection for The Roots:
http://www.discogs.com/user/tomhayes-roots/collection

>Grammy's are a popularity contest.
>
>
>

.

------------


Gone: My Discogs collection for The Roots:
http://www.discogs.com/user/tomhayes-roots/collection

"They used to call me Baby Luke....but now? The whole damn 2 Liiiive Crew."

>RE: This topic is about the quality of her discography, friend.

.

------------


Gone: My Discogs collection for The Roots:
http://www.discogs.com/user/tomhayes-roots/collection

Her albums serve more as time capsules for these moments. She's less michael, more whitney when it comes to the quality of her albums.


She makes amazing singles, great performer and visual artist, but her discography outside of B-Day is mid.

"They used to call me Baby Luke....but now? The whole damn 2 Liiiive Crew."

>Her albums serve more as time capsules for these moments.
>She's less michael, more whitney when it comes to the quality
>of her albums.
>
>
>She makes amazing singles, great performer and visual artist,
>but her discography outside of B-Day is mid.
>


agree with most of this

And given the social-media-meme-short-attention-span era we're in, perhaps that has actually been instrumental to her success, especially with appealing to diff generations.

It's like the jingles we remember from when we were younger and people watched more tv/tv ads... they just kind of stick with us bc we absorbed them from the zeitgeist. Beyonce's whole career has been an accumulation of similar "jingles" (figuratively, and not meant as a diss at all).



>Her albums serve more as time capsules for these moments.

>
>And given the social-media-meme-short-attention-span era we're
>in, perhaps that has actually been instrumental to her
>success, especially with appealing to diff generations.
>
>It's like the jingles we remember from when we were younger
>and people watched more tv/tv ads... they just kind of stick
>with us bc we absorbed them from the zeitgeist. Beyonce's
>whole career has been an accumulation of similar "jingles"
>(figuratively, and not meant as a diss at all).
>
>
>
>>Her albums serve more as time capsules for these moments.
>
>

---
"though time has passed, im still the future" (c) black thought

It's the Carters, so who knows tbh lol

>

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

I think about this all the time. I don't think it does.

The songs are good or catchy but that's it. I wonder when they sit down to create are they only thinking of what will sound "new, original, lots of bells and whistles." Because none of them (save for a couple or three) I care to revisit when I'm digging on YouTube.

My biggest gripe with a lot of her music is it lacks groove or soul (like Mary or Janet or Aaliyah or Jill, Tamia...)
And maybe that has to do with the arrangement/melody- I don't know if those are the appropriate words. Ballad wise- Rocket, Dance For You, 1+1, they don't do anything for me. I feel nothing and I think I'm supposed to(?)

I've mentioned on here before, What if Jam and Lewis or Babyface or Rahsaan Patterson's crew or some other "older/traditional" producers got on board for a whole album.

Maybe she purposely avoids traditional. But hell her crossover hits don't pop like say Rihanna's, Taylor Swift's, Dua Lipa (that one song I know about), Doja Cat, etc.

I realize that I want R&B superstar Beyonce, but she's new R&B and pop superstar Beyonce.

And after all I've said, I do like her. I even crush on her from time to time. She gives off adorable.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DugI-GKvUjs

because it actually moves me and has that soul factor. Bey's music is just surface to me...its definitely singable and some songs have decent messages but its not the same. When Umbrella or Man Down come on im SINGIN that shit hoard

>
>My biggest gripe with a lot of her music is it lacks groove or
>soul (like Mary or Janet or Aaliyah or Jill, Tamia...)

>
>But hell her crossover
>hits don't pop like say Rihanna's, Taylor Swift's, Dua Lipa
>(that one song I know about), Doja Cat, etc.
>

>
>And after all I've said, I do like her. I even crush on her
>from time to time. She gives off adorable.

She is bad tho lol

__________________________________________

I hope you live a life you’re proud of. If you find that you’re not, I hope you have the strength to start all over again.

— F. Scott Fitzgerald

Beyonce has had massive hits for 23 years or so.

and her hits matter more.. especially over time.

She may not statistically win in the the #'s department but every massive Beyoncé hit is a cultural shift.

She has NO contemporaries. Usher & JT are the only ones who come anywhere close. Brit, Xtina and co are long gone.

Rihanna has more "radio hits" but a number of those hits are blips on the cultural radar nowadays (Shut Up & Drive for instance)

Beyonce's power is turning songs into moments that sometimes dwarf their own existence.

Double 0
DJ/Producer/Artist
Producer in Kidz In The Hall
-------------------------------------------
twitter: @godouble0
IG: @godouble0
www.thinklikearapper.com

Rihanna would wash her in a Verzuz battle

To be clear. Rihanna has SMASHES... They busted their ass (and spent her money) to get Rih to the position she is in buying every record that made sense to make her a pop star in a crowded market.

Umbrella is undeniable. We Found Love as well... Diamonds the Neyo collabs etc.

Rihanna has a really unique skill-set that allowed her to get to this level and create her own world and not be in Bey’s shadow. She can take any song written by anyone and make it a Rihanna song. It is how she can go from nina sky rih rih on Pon Di Replay to Fe Fe dobson Rih rih on Shut and Drive to The Fuckin Navy Rihanna on kiss is better

But it has only been these last 2 Rihanna albums and the lingerie and makeup that have moved her into the iconic space.

Double 0
DJ/Producer/Artist
Producer in Kidz In The Hall
-------------------------------------------
twitter: @godouble0
IG: @godouble0
www.thinklikearapper.com

>Rihanna would wash her in a Verzuz battle

I'm not putting songs in order or going round-by-round, let's just call it based on overall 20 song greatest hits samples from the two. Shout out to discogs.com lol and here's links in case you would swap out some hits for others:

https://www.discogs.com/artist/321128-Rihanna?type=Releases&subtype=Singles-EPs&filter_anv=0

https://www.discogs.com/artist/52835-Beyoncé?type=Unofficial&subtype=Singles-EPs&filter_anv=0

Who you got?


20 Rihanna Hits
===============
Pon De Replay
SOS
Hate That I Love You ft. Neyo
Umbrella ft. Jay-Z
Shut Up And Drive
Don't Stop The Music
Disturbia
Take A Bow
Rude Boy
Only Girl In The World
Man Down
We Found Love
What's My Name ft. Drake
Birthday Cake (Remix) ft. Chris Brown
Take Care ft. Drake
Diamonds
Stay ft. Mikky Ekko
Bitch Better Have My Money
Kiss It Better
Work


20 Beyonce Hits
===============
Crazy In Love ft. Jay-Z
Naughty Girl
Me, Myself And I
Baby Boy ft. Sean Paul
Check On It (Pink Panther Soundtrack)
Upgrade U ft. Jay-Z
Listen (Dreamgirls Soundtrack)
Irreplaceable
Get Me Bodied
Deja Vu ft. Jay-Z
Until The End Of Time
Single Ladies
Diva
Halo
Love On Top
Run The World
Drunk In Love
Formation
Flawless
Already ft. Shatta Wale, Major Lazer (Lion King: The Gift)

Based on the "match-ups" listed here, i got Beyonce 13-6.
One push because Man Down and Until The End of Time are both wack to me.

--

"You can't beat white people. You can only knock them out."

<--- Big Baller World Order

"Pretty Hurts", "Brown Eyed Girl", "XO", "Best Thing I Never Had", "Ego", "Diva", "Mood 4 Eva"?

I mean you don't have to like these songs but I guarantee you these shits get a crowd to erupt.

...doesn't have to have topline musical material.

She doesn't have it because she doesn't need it, and she doesn't need it because she gives people the full package of glamour that a (woman) music star could ever give. Full diva stylings. If she had any less going for her besides just pure music, she probably would have a stronger body of solo work

incredible performer and packager

but if we just going music vs music give me Rihanna and a lot of others

Destiny's Child stuff is still pretty strong IMO

<--- Big Baller World Order

>The one thing that is always bugged me about the universal
>Beyoncé adoration is that it seems forced. Like people love
>Beyoncé, the concept, more than her music. I don’t think
>you would find a lot of people who would argue that she has a
>better discography than say, Mary J Blige, and to be perfectly
>honest, it’s probably not a slam dunk to put it over
>Rihanna‘s.
>
>So what do you old people say? Does she have the discography
>to match her status?

Like others have said, its not just the discog. That stopped being the case around the videoooooos era at the latest. So, I don't think this concern about status =/ discog is a Beyonce-specific issue if what you're cooking is a good stew.

And really, a bunch of the 'classic' artists from before the 80s were beloved based on their hits moreso than their albums...even the ones with the badass albums. And many of them made jamming albums that didn't get their love until way later IF THEN because there were no hits. Marvin Gaye is your guy for this for instance. He was drugged up and acting a fool, but he was still crazily jamming even though his star was falling. It was to the point where he was openly jealous of Rick James and Prince. And that was before either of them had huge hits.

Like others have said, she is a monster at creating moments around herself and her music. And, IMO, a lot of her albums will age pretty doggone well because of those moments and how she mastered at least the illusion of 'making it personal'. And folks value that more now than before. And her version of using her resource advantage (making videos for every song or a movie around the album) is going to age very well.

Well, her work will age as well as anyone allows things to age nowadays...

There's folks going around acting like Nas and Jay don't have a parade of ridiculously good raps and songs all up and through their catalogs because several of their albums have shaky songs on them. IMO, the most beloved folks from the 70s and before didn't have to deal with this type of 'searching for/focusing on the bad stuff'. If an act made an album with 2 or more hits on there, things were considered fine to move onto the next album. And hell, even the most beloved 'album' artists eventually faded once they stopped having 'hits' on the albums.

TLDR. It's too late. Beyonce is good shit and that's the way it is. She'd done all she needs to do, too many folks have rolled with it, and her albums and videos are going to age as well as anything is allowed to.

i'm not even a stan like that and I'm scoffing.

please.

d

"But rest assured, in my luxurious house built on the backs of people darker than me, I am sipping fine scotch and scoffing at how stupid you are." - bshelly

Also add that Lion King: The Gift album she put together and the Black is King movie.... anyone that don’t like any of that stuff.... iono what to tell ya

*******************************************************
i will not let finite disappointment undermine infinite hope
- Cory Booker

Football is a simple game; 22 men chase a ball for 90 minutes, and at the end the Germans always win
- Gary Lineker

Above the Janet/Whitney/Mariah tier, and she looks poised to unseat Madonna.. I don’t think her catalog puts her ahead of any of those women

but she is up there

Mariah, Janet and Whitney are legends.


Beyonce is a superstar - almost a legend.


the DC stuff, 2 really big first two solo albums and a lot of good singles and popular singles. Now some like the more recent projects too.


That's enough to rate superstardom - but not legend.

If you don't see this, you're not paying attention. Ask someone aged 20-30 how they'd rank Beyoncé. They only reason you don't have her in the legends category, is you're old.

Mariah and obviously Whitney had some very public struggles, and when that happens to those that are that large, the media turns on them and amps it.

They didn’t really break Janet, they just blackballed her.

They haven’t really turned on Beyoncé, and she’s been able to stay “clean” image wise.

She doesn’t have the songs those other 3 have though. Especially Mariah - that’s not even close.

>Above the Janet/Whitney/Mariah tier

________________________________________
"Take the surprise out your voice Shaq."-The REAL CP3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2H5K-BUMS0

______________________________________

Navem nu, cuando sol
Tutu nu, vondo nos nu
Vita em, no continous non
Nos nu ekta nos sepe ta, amen

When the sun shades the ship
We sweat and life is not safe
To swim or to touch not
When we unite we hedge amen