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Subject: "Can We Talk About Conservative Values?" Previous topic | Next topic
Damali
Member since Sep 12th 2002
35074 posts
Mon Feb-15-21 11:45 PM

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"Can We Talk About Conservative Values?"


          

like what exactly are they?

when Trump first won, i remember repeating the cliche of how i missed "real conservatives", but when i really think deeply on it, what exactly do they believe?

and do any of the things that fall under 'conservative values' NOT intersect w/white supremacy, sexism or hetero-normalcy?

if the answer is no, is it possible that conservative is synonomous w/bigoted?

i'd like your thoughts

d

"But rest assured, in my luxurious house built on the backs of people darker than me, I am sipping fine scotch and scoffing at how stupid you are." - bshelly

  

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Topic Outline
Subject Author Message Date ID
Conservative = closed minded and selfish
Feb 16th 2021
1
No on abortion and yes on lower taxes.
Feb 16th 2021
2
well lets ask one of the main architects of 'conservative values'.
Feb 16th 2021
3
Conservative Values
Feb 16th 2021
4
catholic values are way liberal in general
Feb 16th 2021
9
White grievance + End of days religious fanaticism
Feb 16th 2021
5
subsidiarity
Feb 16th 2021
6
But isn't the first one generalyl right with one HUGE exception.
Feb 16th 2021
19
      That's why it's usually paired with "solidarity"
Feb 17th 2021
32
they only have one. sticking it to the libs
Feb 16th 2021
7
"strong national defense"
Feb 16th 2021
8
Nothing they don't value anything
Feb 16th 2021
10
I used to think that taxes were a legit beef, but its just classism/ rac...
Feb 16th 2021
11
Yes it is. See the Lee Atwater interview above.
Feb 16th 2021
12
I don't think the word means anything anymore
Feb 16th 2021
13
I meant to mention "self reliance" and "individualism" ...
Feb 16th 2021
15
      RE: I meant to mention "self reliance" and "individualism" ...
Feb 16th 2021
27
The definition of conservatism is "it's not important unless ...
Feb 16th 2021
14
I think conservative thinking is more rooted in "tribe" than values
Feb 16th 2021
16
This is fascinating. I think you're right.
Feb 16th 2021
17
      RE: This is fascinating. I think you're right.
Feb 16th 2021
18
           i mean, you look back to the of the "immoral" things trump has done...
Feb 16th 2021
24
They don't have any. Just racism and selfishness.
Feb 16th 2021
20
Racist, regressive, and they should be delegitimized
Feb 16th 2021
21
I don't think conservative values are wrong, in & of themselves
Feb 16th 2021
22
Totally. Small gov't is great and of massive importance ...
Feb 16th 2021
23
they haven't twisted anything. the people who are pushing that stuff
Feb 17th 2021
30
The Loud Minority
Feb 16th 2021
25
Got a good podcast that tries to shed some light on this.
Feb 16th 2021
26
phenomenal rec...thanks i will definitely add it to my list
Feb 16th 2021
28
RE: Got a good podcast that tries to shed some light on this.
Feb 17th 2021
47
there's a few layers?
Feb 17th 2021
29
as gutting as that is to accept, you're right.
Feb 18th 2021
53
      they got all the same information we do
Feb 18th 2021
61
           FOR REAL. May never have another opportunity, way things are going.
Feb 18th 2021
62
                i'm not counting progressives out
Feb 18th 2021
63
shameless projection
Feb 17th 2021
31
Conservative mayor: Don't have heat or water? Figure it out for yourself...
Feb 17th 2021
33
Thought of this thread too when I saw that.
Feb 17th 2021
36
All the conservatives in that town looking like: https://media0.giphy.co...
Feb 17th 2021
37
My first thought was how many non-white ppl they have in that town
Feb 17th 2021
38
Went for Trump 84%-15%
Feb 17th 2021
39
      He is willing to screw the 84% to make sure the 15% doesn't get a "hando...
Feb 17th 2021
46
           they are willing to die for this shit
Feb 17th 2021
51
indistiguishable from The onion
Feb 17th 2021
40
For real.
Feb 17th 2021
41
Resigned.
Feb 17th 2021
42
If only more piece of shit GQP members would resign in shame.
Feb 17th 2021
43
      Supposedly his wife was fired.
Feb 18th 2021
52
this sums it up perfectly
Feb 17th 2021
49
Really good post. Lots of good breakdowns in here
Feb 17th 2021
34
oooh I like the comparison to Nigeria..this is really interesting
Feb 18th 2021
54
But are right wing v. left wing the same as conservative v progressive.
Feb 18th 2021
56
Make America Great Again
Feb 17th 2021
35
Rush: I Don't Even Want to be Alive Anymore (from the onion)
Feb 17th 2021
44
Posting this here because I think the death drive is part of this too
Feb 17th 2021
45
James Ceaser argues that modern conservatism has one heart and four head...
Feb 17th 2021
48
Bible/Koran/Torah core teachings
Feb 17th 2021
50
I truly appreciate everyone's replies...reading them all and learned alo...
Feb 18th 2021
55
Well it kinda was lol. But conservative ideology *is* a joke, so.
Feb 18th 2021
57
      remember when there was a time
Feb 18th 2021
60
a few things that explain it well, this one put it all into view
Feb 18th 2021
58
A misery delivery system
Feb 18th 2021
59

sectachrome86
Member since Dec 22nd 2007
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Tue Feb-16-21 12:35 AM

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1. "Conservative = closed minded and selfish "
In response to Reply # 0


          

“I don’t like that and/or I don’t understand it, and so no one should like that or allow it.”

It’s definitely fair to say that conservative is synonymous with bigotry. They think racism and bigotry is just surface level obvious shit, and refuse to acknowledge the deeper systematic elements to it or be at all empathetic or introspective.

Being a conservative is all about resisting progress because it makes you uncomfortable.

-------------------------------------------------
http://www.soundcloud.com/sectachrome

  

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vik
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Tue Feb-16-21 04:16 AM

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2. "No on abortion and yes on lower taxes."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

---

But hell, what do I know?

  

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Reeq
Member since Mar 11th 2013
11938 posts
Tue Feb-16-21 05:36 AM

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3. "well lets ask one of the main architects of 'conservative values'."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_8E3ENrKrQ

you can pretty much link every pillar of the conservative platform to the maintenance/furtherance/appeasement of white supremacy.

states rights (anti federal protection against discrimination), 2nd amendment (insecurity related to black prowess), abortion (low white birth rates and 'replacement'), low taxation (starving social safety programs for underserved black/brown communities), etc.

even modern conservative judicial philosophies like originalism/textualism are a front operation for repealing decades of progressive social/cultural advancements (particularly on racial equality).

------

  

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wluv
Member since Jan 27th 2003
4338 posts
Tue Feb-16-21 06:29 AM

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4. "Conservative Values"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

They have issues they believe in that aren't necessarily bigoted related like:

abortion{which was already mentioned}
climate change and their myths espoused
smaller government and lower taxes
Tax cuts for the wealthy(They still believe in Reagan's trickle down theory}
Family Values/Catholic Values=no to divorce, abortion, etc}
Strong Military{meaning war is sometimes necessary}
Gun rights

Where it has taken racist stances are:

being pro police in unarmed black men's death in custody

supporting the prison industrial complex to build more prisons

decimation of voting rights which im hoping Dems pass the John Lewis Bill to restore those rights

Blatant Voter suppression{see above}

Immigration

Trump's America inflamed the differences to heights never reached before. Trump blatant White Nationalist's support and anti BLM support and the 95% of Rep in Congress whos support him, couldn't be more clearer that its ingrained in their agenda. And as long as Conservatives support that him, they will be painted with that same brush. But here's the thing. Even having lost the Presidency, they still on betting they can win national elections having this stance and are betting on 2022 to prove it. Im hoping that Dems can for once changed the narrative in the midterms and come out and vote enough to have an impact on slowing that dangerous group down.

  

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cgonz00cc
Member since Aug 01st 2002
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Tue Feb-16-21 09:38 AM

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9. "catholic values are way liberal in general"
In response to Reply # 4


  

          

its a shame that gay marriage and abortion have taken precedence over peace and service to the poor

WHAT A TIME TO BE ALIVE

  

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MEAT
Member since Feb 08th 2008
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Tue Feb-16-21 07:34 AM

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5. "White grievance + End of days religious fanaticism "
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

------
“There is no fate that cannot be surmounted by scorn.” -Albert Camus

  

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Walleye
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Tue Feb-16-21 08:50 AM

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6. "subsidiarity"
In response to Reply # 0


          

The notion that our collective decision-making should be made by the smallest, most localized authority is a conservative value,

That's just a shot at answering your question. The things I would definitely not argue here are:

-that the GOP or its various constituents are motivated in any meaningful way by this value

-that this value doesn't dovetail with particularly conservative vehicles of oppression in mutually buttressing ways

-that this value is not also articulated in forms of liberal or left-wing thought

...which leaves it a pretty abstract notion, so you can feel free to discard it based on how your question was intended. But I do think that this concept is a fundamental part of the conservative understanding of liberty and that it isn't *necessarily* hostile to liberation of various oppressed groups so much as it's very easy to weaponize that way.

______________________________

"Walleye, a lot of things are going to go wrong in your life that technically aren't your fault. Always remember that this doesn't make you any less of an idiot"

--Walleye's Dad

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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Tue Feb-16-21 11:44 AM

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19. "But isn't the first one generalyl right with one HUGE exception. "
In response to Reply # 6


  

          

>The notion that our collective decision-making should be made
>by the smallest, most localized authority is a conservative
>value,

I think in a vacuum, I very much believe that people should govern themselves and bad government happens most often when people are far removed from the people making decisions about their lives. If there is a pothole in my street, I want to be able to call up someone in government to complain about it. I want my congress person to have an office in my neighborhood and I can make an appointment to speak with him.

That being said, there is a HUGE exception to this rule as it pertains to the rights of minority groups (and when I say minority groups broadly). The local majority should not be able to infringe on the rights of minority groups.

We always know what republicans mean when they say small government and states right. They don't want the federal government interfering with how they poorly treat minority groups.

Its an exception that 100% swallows up the rule for good reason. I wish there was a non-racist way to see local rule work and be value in our government.







**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

  

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Walleye
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Wed Feb-17-21 07:40 AM

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32. "That's why it's usually paired with "solidarity""
In response to Reply # 19


          

Solidarity is the idea that, however different we are, our lives are bound to each other, materially and spiritually. And so there is no meaningful understanding of liberation (material or spiritual) wherein I can be free but you are not. If we aren't all free, none of us are. That this is *definitional* in any understanding of human freedom, that the very concept can't be supported by oppression.

>The local majority should not be
>able to infringe on the rights of minority groups.

Right. This is where the two meet. That subsidiarity preserves our individual liberty while solidarity makes an assertion that these two sets of rights, in a properly ordered understanding of human freedom, cannot conflict. So if a conflict is perceived, somebody has misunderstood what the purpose of all this chatter about "rights" is actually for.

In any event, I'm not really trying to defend any particular political demonstration of this value, particularly on the right. I just know that it's an actual idea, with meaningful philosophical content, that is often identified as a "conservative value" per the question's framing.

______________________________

"Walleye, a lot of things are going to go wrong in your life that technically aren't your fault. Always remember that this doesn't make you any less of an idiot"

--Walleye's Dad

  

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BrooklynWHAT
Member since Jun 15th 2007
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Tue Feb-16-21 08:56 AM

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7. "they only have one. sticking it to the libs"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

they'll hop back and forth over the fence on any given issue as long as they feel they're sticking it to the libs

<--- Big Baller World Order

  

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CIPHA
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Tue Feb-16-21 09:19 AM

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8. ""strong national defense""
In response to Reply # 0


          

Is really the only consistent one I can think of.

_____________________________________

Let me guess, I can have "good day" now, right?

  

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Lurkmode
Member since May 07th 2011
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Tue Feb-16-21 09:41 AM

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10. "Nothing they don't value anything"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

It's racism with a cover story.

---------------------------
Signature

  

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select_from_where
Member since Jan 03rd 2011
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Tue Feb-16-21 10:00 AM

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11. "I used to think that taxes were a legit beef, but its just classism/ rac..."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

shortchanging quality of life for folks in the country so politicians can give away money to companies to screw same said folks over even more.

Now that I have lived in a conservative area and liberal, I can complete see the hustle these cats are running.

  

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Brew
Member since Nov 23rd 2002
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Tue Feb-16-21 10:25 AM

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12. "Yes it is. See the Lee Atwater interview above."
In response to Reply # 11


          

>RE: I used to think that taxes were a legit beef, but its just classism/ racism

Reposting here for you.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_8E3ENrKrQ

----------------------------------------

"Fuck aliens." © WarriorPoet415

  

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PimpTrickGangstaClik
Member since Oct 06th 2005
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Tue Feb-16-21 10:57 AM

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13. "I don't think the word means anything anymore"
In response to Reply # 0
Tue Feb-16-21 11:01 AM by PimpTrickGangstaClik

  

          

It's more like a flag to signal you are part of a certain team. But with no common ideas

You have people say that Trump was the most conservative president in history for "reasons".
Then you have other people who argue Trump was not conservative at all for "reasons" (often for the same reasons the first group called him conservative).

It's just hard to find consistent themes anymore.

I used to answer this question by saying: limited role/function of government, self reliance, focus on tradition and order. But now, who knows

  

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Brew
Member since Nov 23rd 2002
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Tue Feb-16-21 11:02 AM

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15. "I meant to mention "self reliance" and "individualism" ..."
In response to Reply # 13


          

>I used to answer this question by saying: limited
>role/function of government, self reliance, focus tradition
>and order. But now, who knows

.. when I mentioned "it's not important until it happens to me." I think even the "self reliance" thing is built on racism and bigotry as well. In that, white people have a much easier time being "self reliant" since we have a 400 year head start in terms of wealth, resources, and opportunity at our disposal.

But funny how "self reliance" takes a back seat when white people face even the slightest inconveniences. I wouldn't call this particular example a "slight" inconvenience, it's pretty serious - but the situation in Texas right now is a good example of what I'm talking about. Two weeks ago they were all "fuck the feds !!" and talking about secession. Now they're begging for federal funds because they got 2 inches of snow.

Again, it's very serious and I don't mean to minimalize what the *people* of the greater Austin area are going thru - it's horrible and I wish them well. I'm talking about the Governor and politicians who found it acceptable to laugh at other states who needed fed funds in the past, openly. Who are now begging for funds themselves.

----------------------------------------

"Fuck aliens." © WarriorPoet415

  

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jimaveli
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Tue Feb-16-21 05:16 PM

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27. "RE: I meant to mention "self reliance" and "individualism" ..."
In response to Reply # 15


  

          

Yes. All of this. We’re a team when I need something from you. When I’m good and I can tell myself that ‘I got here by myself’, then the empathy is nowhere near what they want in return. It’s a tough group of folks to tolerate due to the lack of consistency and their embarrassing failure to follow the golden rule they were once quick to reference.

The tradition and order part is the scariest one for me. Forever, I have considered Murrica to be operating as a loose caste system. Of course, you CAN ascend well beyond whatever ‘class’ you were born into, but there’s going to energy coming against you if you ‘move up too much’...especially if you are not white. Entertainment and sports folks deal with this all the time. So, to me, the worst conservative folks think it is their call to decide who can and can’t ‘move up’. And what upward mobility is valid and which ones are ‘bullshit’. Or how much should be enough. Ask a maga about any famous black singer or rapper. Enjoy the loaded responses.

Or in the nfl, see the replies when a white qb gets a new contract vs when the growing number of black qbs get one. This was maid absurdly clear when Christian McCaffrey got paid vs the reaction to Kamara or the other guys getting their money.

>>I used to answer this question by saying: limited
>>role/function of government, self reliance, focus tradition
>>and order. But now, who knows
>
>.. when I mentioned "it's not important until it happens to
>me." I think even the "self reliance" thing is built on racism
>and bigotry as well. In that, white people have a much easier
>time being "self reliant" since we have a 400 year head start
>in terms of wealth, resources, and opportunity at our
>disposal.
>
>But funny how "self reliance" takes a back seat when white
>people face even the slightest inconveniences. I wouldn't call
>this particular example a "slight" inconvenience, it's pretty
>serious - but the situation in Texas right now is a good
>example of what I'm talking about. Two weeks ago they were all
>"fuck the feds !!" and talking about secession. Now they're
>begging for federal funds because they got 2 inches of snow.
>
>Again, it's very serious and I don't mean to minimalize what
>the *people* of the greater Austin area are going thru - it's
>horrible and I wish them well. I'm talking about the Governor
>and politicians who found it acceptable to laugh at other
>states who needed fed funds in the past, openly. Who are now
>begging for funds themselves.

  

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Brew
Member since Nov 23rd 2002
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Tue Feb-16-21 10:58 AM

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14. "The definition of conservatism is "it's not important unless ..."
In response to Reply # 0


          

... it happens to me."

>and do any of the things that fall under 'conservative values' NOT intersect w/white supremacy, sexism or hetero-normalcy?

No. Conservatives love to talk about "tradition" but since our tradition was built on white supremacy, patriarchy, and hetero-normalcy and homophobie, "tradition" is quite literally all of those things. And "conservatism" means aversion to change.


I think conservatism is definitely synonymous with bigotry. I think they are mutually exclusive even if it's not overt on an individual level.

----------------------------------------

"Fuck aliens." © WarriorPoet415

  

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shockvalue
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Tue Feb-16-21 11:10 AM

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16. "I think conservative thinking is more rooted in "tribe" than values"
In response to Reply # 0


          

And the tribe they perceive being part of is a white one.

It's in the maintenance and defense of the tribe that conservatives so quickly sell out their so-called "values". This was strikingly on display when Trump was shitting on vets, and conservatives didn't give a shit. Trump had become the leader of the tribe, and anything he did tactically to further that was fair game.

It's cultlike.

Out of morbid curiosity, I like to imagine what would happen if you had a phenom-type black "traditional" conservative Republican candidate for pres in 2024, and Trump ran against that person in the GOP primary, and Trump outflanked the black conservative on the left. Is there ANY "values-abrogating" position Trump could take that would result in his defeat in this primary? I wish we could run that sim to see how far Trump would have to go to lose in this situation.

  

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Brew
Member since Nov 23rd 2002
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Tue Feb-16-21 11:21 AM

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17. "This is fascinating. I think you're right."
In response to Reply # 16


          

>RE: I think conservative thinking is more rooted in "tribe" than values
>And the tribe they perceive being part of is a white one.
>
>It's in the maintenance and defense of the tribe that
>conservatives so quickly sell out their so-called "values".
>This was strikingly on display when Trump was shitting on
>vets, and conservatives didn't give a shit. Trump had become
>the leader of the tribe, and anything he did tactically to
>further that was fair game.
>
>It's cultlike.

Hence why the GQP had no actual platform at this year's RNC. And hence why the "Blue Lives Matter" crowd has been utterly silent about the murder of Brian Sicknick on 1.6.

----------------------------------------

"Fuck aliens." © WarriorPoet415

  

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shockvalue
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Tue Feb-16-21 11:27 AM

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18. "RE: This is fascinating. I think you're right."
In response to Reply # 17


          

>Hence why the GQP had no actual platform at this year's RNC.
>And hence why the "Blue Lives Matter" crowd has been utterly
>silent about the murder of Brian Sicknick on 1.6.

Terrific examples. The capitol is ultimate example. The "law and order party" suddenly pro-insurrection (or sympathetic, at best), since it's their people.

  

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PROMO
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Tue Feb-16-21 03:12 PM

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24. "i mean, you look back to the of the "immoral" things trump has done..."
In response to Reply # 18


  

          

that real "conservative values" folks SHOULD have DEADED him over, but like you said, he was heading the tribe so they looked the other way.

that ish started way back in 2015 and they were staring at their shoes and whistling back then.

STAND OUT HAND OUTS: http://basquiatwhenipaint.tumblr.com

TWEET ME: @PROMO206

  

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My_SP1200_Broken_Again
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Tue Feb-16-21 12:18 PM

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20. "They don't have any. Just racism and selfishness."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          



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afrogirl_lost
Member since May 22nd 2012
3048 posts
Tue Feb-16-21 01:30 PM

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21. "Racist, regressive, and they should be delegitimized "
In response to Reply # 0


          

on every level.

  

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Marbles
Member since Oct 19th 2004
21760 posts
Tue Feb-16-21 01:55 PM

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22. "I don't think conservative values are wrong, in & of themselves"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          


Instead it's the manipulation of conservative ideas by the Republican Party and the twisted ways that they apply these "values" that make them dangerous.

Small government isn't a terrible idea, depending on the circumstances. But like Buddy said earlier in this post, it's the way that the GOP has twisted and used that concept that makes it bad.

I think you could argue a similar thing for several other so-called conservative values (fiscal responsibility, strong military, few regulations, etc.).


  

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Brew
Member since Nov 23rd 2002
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Tue Feb-16-21 02:56 PM

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23. "Totally. Small gov't is great and of massive importance ..."
In response to Reply # 22


          

.. when you're speaking about the state's ability to infringe on a person's privacy and rights.

Small gov't is not so great when it comes to regulating businesses' and corporations' freedom to price gauge or fuck over the general population.

The GQP loves to conflate the two, and act like regulating big business is somehow = to the gov't infringing on individual rights.

And repug voters eat it up.

It's fucked.


>Small government isn't a terrible idea, depending on the
>circumstances. But like Buddy said earlier in this post, it's
>the way that the GOP has twisted and used that concept that
>makes it bad.

----------------------------------------

"Fuck aliens." © WarriorPoet415

  

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Rjcc
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30. "they haven't twisted anything. the people who are pushing that stuff"
In response to Reply # 22


          

know exactly what they want and are trying to get it.

they haven't been misled.

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

  

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bigkarma
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25. "The Loud Minority"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

It's like the saying, "Not all Republicans are racist, but all racists are Republicans..."

I think the majority of people in the country are some combination of politically centrist, socially ignorant or just plain apathetic.

The white supremacists, the fundamentalists, the hardcore capitalists...etc., are a small percentage of those people who would say they believe in conservative values, but they are the most activist. A larger swath of folks just allow themselves to lead by them. The question would be whether you consider those people guilty by their apathy.

I think the same applies to the other side as well. A larger group of people that would probably call themselves liberal have very little interest in, or even knowledge of, progressive issues.

  

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Brew
Member since Nov 23rd 2002
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Tue Feb-16-21 04:05 PM

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26. "Got a good podcast that tries to shed some light on this."
In response to Reply # 0


          

It's called "Know Your Enemy." The stated purpose is to try and quantify/identify exactly this. What do conservatives *actually* stand for ? Why do they operate politically the way that they do ? What is the history of conservative intellectualism and thought, and how closely has it actually reflected its own stated value system throughout modern history ?

It's a *super* dense podcast, at least the first several episodes. Early on the two hosts tended to hone in on one book or one central tenet of conservative intellectualism so I found myself rewinding a lot.

But I have to say that it's been super, super illuminating on a number of levels. The hosts typically do a nice job of laying bare exactly what motivations conservatives have and how conservative "intellectualism" is typically used, as I think most of us are acutely aware, as a tool to give cover for their more abhorrent and ghoulish actual ideals and motivations. But the hosts explain all this in a way that doesn't come off as just piling on. They first try to honestly explore what "decent" conservatives may actually believe, before diving into the practical and functional results of conservative philosophy and policy and highlighting how their values more often than not result in utter failure on a societal level.

It's good for that reason but also because one of the hosts is a self-described "recovering right wing intellectual" who has since become a fervent leftwinger/borderline socialist. So he offers a unique perspective that I don't think you often get from other leftwing podcasts.

Anyway I highly recommend it because I think this podcast actually answers a whole lot of what you're asking here in a satisfying way, that offers genuine and honest explorations of conservative thought without serving to, in really any way, *defend* conservatives or their stated beliefs unless warranted (in rare cases).

----------------------------------------

"Fuck aliens." © WarriorPoet415

  

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Damali
Member since Sep 12th 2002
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Tue Feb-16-21 11:28 PM

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28. "phenomenal rec...thanks i will definitely add it to my list"
In response to Reply # 26


          


"But rest assured, in my luxurious house built on the backs of people darker than me, I am sipping fine scotch and scoffing at how stupid you are." - bshelly

  

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jimaveli
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47. "RE: Got a good podcast that tries to shed some light on this."
In response to Reply # 26


  

          

Sounds very good. Added this to the podcast list. Thanks!

>It's called "Know Your Enemy." The stated purpose is to try
>and quantify/identify exactly this. What do conservatives
>*actually* stand for ? Why do they operate politically the way
>that they do ? What is the history of conservative
>intellectualism and thought, and how closely has it actually
>reflected its own stated value system throughout modern
>history ?
>
>It's a *super* dense podcast, at least the first several
>episodes. Early on the two hosts tended to hone in on one book
>or one central tenet of conservative intellectualism so I
>found myself rewinding a lot.
>
>But I have to say that it's been super, super illuminating on
>a number of levels. The hosts typically do a nice job of
>laying bare exactly what motivations conservatives have and
>how conservative "intellectualism" is typically used, as I
>think most of us are acutely aware, as a tool to give cover
>for their more abhorrent and ghoulish actual ideals and
>motivations. But the hosts explain all this in a way that
>doesn't come off as just piling on. They first try to honestly
>explore what "decent" conservatives may actually believe,
>before diving into the practical and functional results of
>conservative philosophy and policy and highlighting how their
>values more often than not result in utter failure on a
>societal level.
>
>It's good for that reason but also because one of the hosts is
>a self-described "recovering right wing intellectual" who has
>since become a fervent leftwinger/borderline socialist. So he
>offers a unique perspective that I don't think you often get
>from other leftwing podcasts.
>
>Anyway I highly recommend it because I think this podcast
>actually answers a whole lot of what you're asking here in a
>satisfying way, that offers genuine and honest explorations of
>conservative thought without serving to, in really any way,
>*defend* conservatives or their stated beliefs unless
>warranted (in rare cases).

  

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Rjcc
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29. "there's a few layers?"
In response to Reply # 0


          

Convservative = society is best the way it is, and better the way it used to be. With varying levels of discernment about what that means.

So their only real mission is keeping anything from changing. the slower and harder they can make any move to rebalance things, the better.


beyond that, especially for the religious ones, it's suicide. On one hand you have a society with equal opportunity, or more equal opportunity. They believe that means the death of the society they prefer, and really the death of themselves because they don't have any self identity outside of it.


So you'll never be able to make them change their minds based on what's better for them, because everything you're selling is death. Even if the side they're on is making their life worse or will kill them, it's ok because at worst it's the same as the alternative.

For the ones who've really thought it through, their mission is simple: they feel like they're on top, and they want to end the game before things change. They are actively trying to bring about armageddon, whether that's linked to religion or not...it's all about hoarding wealth and power until they're the last ones left and the lights go out.


www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

  

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Damali
Member since Sep 12th 2002
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53. "as gutting as that is to accept, you're right."
In response to Reply # 29


          

and its so utterly selfish

and inhumane

this can't be the rest of my life..i just refuse. that reality is a big part of why i can't wait to be able to put this country in my rear view mirror

d

"But rest assured, in my luxurious house built on the backs of people darker than me, I am sipping fine scotch and scoffing at how stupid you are." - bshelly

  

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Rjcc
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61. "they got all the same information we do"
In response to Reply # 53


          

and just are taking away a very different course of action

fuckit, end the game while we're winning.

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

  

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Brew
Member since Nov 23rd 2002
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Thu Feb-18-21 08:45 PM

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62. "FOR REAL. May never have another opportunity, way things are going."
In response to Reply # 61


          

>fuckit, end the game while we're winning.

Pretty fortunate to be winning at the level that we are in the first place.

Need to take advantage. And only have two years.

----------------------------------------

"Fuck aliens." © WarriorPoet415

  

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Damali
Member since Sep 12th 2002
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Thu Feb-18-21 09:18 PM

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63. "i'm not counting progressives out"
In response to Reply # 62


          

there is a 50 state strategy happening that has gained even more momentum since the election and Jan 6

progressives have FINALLY figured out what the GOP has known for decades: personnel is policy & politics are local.

State legislatures, mayors, sherriffs, county execs, circuit courts and DA's have long been ignored (on a grand scale) by liberals and progressives, while the right has been hyper focused on controlling those important levers of power

the battle is on now tho...2022 will definitely show up whose winning.

d

"But rest assured, in my luxurious house built on the backs of people darker than me, I am sipping fine scotch and scoffing at how stupid you are." - bshelly

  

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Mynoriti
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31. "shameless projection"
In response to Reply # 0
Wed Feb-17-21 01:20 AM by Mynoriti

  

          

they consistently demonstrate that they don't believe in any of the things they claim to believe in like the free market or states rights or individual liberties or respect for law and order, or anything jesus ever said, and are perfectly fine with everything they claim to be against the second its suits them.

but as long as they can successfully point to the libs as the ones doing all the shit they themselves are openly doing, they'll keep fighting on that lie. they don't care if they're hypoocrites because the libs are the real hypocrites. the libs are the real racists. the libs are the ones trying to undermine democracy. conservatives are the ones being bullied by intolerant liberals, hollywood, blm, and big tech

shit, their whole platform now is that they're the warriors against cancel culture and how it has everyone afraid of openly voicing an opinion outside of what the mob has decided is acceptable... but they're 1000% fine with cancel culture if it applies to someone like Kaepernick. For all their bitching about about Margorie Taylor Green being targeted, they tried to cancel Liz Cheney on literally the same week for daring to color outside the lines. the ultimate irony being that the only thing that saved her was a secret ballot so that they could agree she wasn't wrong without having to put their names behind it

--------
http://ambitiondeficitdisorder.tumblr.com/

  

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PimpTrickGangstaClik
Member since Oct 06th 2005
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Wed Feb-17-21 08:57 AM

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33. "Conservative mayor: Don't have heat or water? Figure it out for yourself..."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/texas-mayor-quits-after-saying-residents-are-lazy-amidoutages

"No one owes you or your family anything; nor is it the local governments responsibility to support you during trying times like this! Sink or swim, it’s your choice!" he wrote. "The City and County, along with power providers or any other service owes you NOTHING!"

"If you have no water you deal with out and think outside of the box to survive and supply water to your family," he added. "If you were sitting at home in the cold because you have no power and are sitting there waiting for someone to come rescue you because your lazy is direct result of your raising!"

"Am I sorry that you have been dealing without electricity and water; yes! But I’ll be damned if I’m going to provide for anyone that is capable of doing it themselves!" Boyd continued in the post. "Bottom line, quit crying and looking for a handout! Get off your ass and take care of your own family!"

  

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shockvalue
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Wed Feb-17-21 09:58 AM

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36. "Thought of this thread too when I saw that."
In response to Reply # 33
Wed Feb-17-21 10:03 AM by shockvalue

          

To be a successful conservative, you're supposed to deliver these messages to OTHERS, not to a sizable percentage of your own constituency lol.

But it's very revealing about how conservative politicians (not to mention voters) misjudge the extent of the privileged ingroup, and their own likelihood under unbridled capitalism of ending up OUTSIDE OF IT.

  

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PimpTrickGangstaClik
Member since Oct 06th 2005
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Wed Feb-17-21 10:22 AM

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37. "All the conservatives in that town looking like: https://media0.giphy.co..."
In response to Reply # 36


  

          

https://media0.giphy.com/media/dw7lCpFmsyfS0/giphy.gif

The bootstraps speech isn't supposed to be given to them!

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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38. "My first thought was how many non-white ppl they have in that town"
In response to Reply # 33


  

          


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

  

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PimpTrickGangstaClik
Member since Oct 06th 2005
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Wed Feb-17-21 10:43 AM

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39. "Went for Trump 84%-15%"
In response to Reply # 38


  

          

You asked for race, but.....same thing

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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46. "He is willing to screw the 84% to make sure the 15% doesn't get a "hando..."
In response to Reply # 39


  

          


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

  

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Rjcc
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51. "they are willing to die for this shit"
In response to Reply # 46


          


www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

  

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Mynoriti
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40. "indistiguishable from The onion"
In response to Reply # 33


  

          

>https://www.foxnews.com/politics/texas-mayor-quits-after-saying-residents-are-lazy-amidoutages
>
>"No one owes you or your family anything; nor is it the local
>governments responsibility to support you during trying times
>like this! Sink or swim, it’s your choice!" he wrote. "The
>City and County, along with power providers or any other
>service owes you NOTHING!"
>
>"If you have no water you deal with out and think outside of
>the box to survive and supply water to your family," he added.
>"If you were sitting at home in the cold because you have no
>power and are sitting there waiting for someone to come rescue
>you because your lazy is direct result of your raising!"
>
>"Am I sorry that you have been dealing without electricity and
>water; yes! But I’ll be damned if I’m going to provide for
>anyone that is capable of doing it themselves!" Boyd continued
>in the post. "Bottom line, quit crying and looking for a
>handout! Get off your ass and take care of your own family!"
>

--------
http://ambitiondeficitdisorder.tumblr.com/

  

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Brew
Member since Nov 23rd 2002
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Wed Feb-17-21 11:44 AM

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41. "For real."
In response to Reply # 40


          

I love how this clown legit thinks that the government is not responsible for the well being of their constituents. Which is literally their job description.

Truth is stranger than fiction.

----------------------------------------

"Fuck aliens." © WarriorPoet415

  

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Cold Truth
Member since Jan 28th 2004
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Wed Feb-17-21 12:11 PM

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42. "Resigned."
In response to Reply # 33


  

          

Of particular note is his, uh, apology.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/texas-mayor-resigned-telling-people-111237826.html

The mayor of a Texas city resigned after telling people it was their own fault if they were suffering from the vast loss of electricity in the state this week amid a historic cold snap.

Tim Boyd, the mayor of Colorado City, accused his constituents of looking for a "handout" as power went out across the state. He encouraged residents with no water to "think outside the box to survive."
Video: Turkish power plant turns scrap tires into electricity
Scroll back up to restore default view.

The outburst came in a since-deleted Facebook post that included numerous misspellings.

It said: "No one owes you are your family anything; nor is it the local government's responsibility to support you during trying times like this! Sink of swim it's your choice!"

He said later in the post: "I'm sick and tired of people looking for a damn handout! If you don't have electricity you step up and come up with a game plan to keep your family warm and safe.
winter storm 7.JPG
A sign warning motorists on a highway north of Jackson, Mississippi, on Monday. Barbara Gauntt/Clarion-Ledger/USA Today Network via REUTERS

"If you have no water you deal without and think outside the box to survive and supply water to your family.

"If you are sitting at home in the cold because you have no power and are sitting there waiting for someone to come rescue you because your lazy is direct result of your raising.

"Only the strong will survive and the weak will parish."


At least 20 people had died in connection to the storms as of early Wednesday, according to the Associated Press.

Boyd resigned Tuesday. According to Fox News, he said in a Facebook post: "I would never want to hurt the elderly or anyone that is in true need of help to be left to fend for themselves.

"I was only making the statement that those folks that are too lazy to get up and fend for themselves but are capable should not be dealt a handout. I apologize for the wording and some of the phrases that were used!"

Freezing temperatures across many US states have left people battling ice and snow and have caused severe power outages.

Texas is seeing some of its coldest temperatures in more than 30 years, the BBC reported.

Millions of homes and businesses in Texas were without power Tuesday.

Some of the deaths were directly linked to efforts to try to get warm. The Houston police said a woman and a girl died of carbon-monoxide poisoning after trying to use their car to generate heat.

  

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Brew
Member since Nov 23rd 2002
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Wed Feb-17-21 12:23 PM

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43. "If only more piece of shit GQP members would resign in shame."
In response to Reply # 42


          

----------------------------------------

"Fuck aliens." © WarriorPoet415

  

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Cold Truth
Member since Jan 28th 2004
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Thu Feb-18-21 12:20 PM

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52. "Supposedly his wife was fired."
In response to Reply # 43


  

          

I want so badly to watch a barrage of "nobody owes you or your wife anything" comments, but it seems he's no longer on social media

  

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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
69222 posts
Wed Feb-17-21 03:06 PM

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49. "this sums it up perfectly"
In response to Reply # 33


          

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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kfine
Member since Jan 11th 2009
1866 posts
Wed Feb-17-21 09:38 AM

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34. "Really good post. Lots of good breakdowns in here"
In response to Reply # 0


          

Ya it's definitely way easier to characterize conservative *policy* than conservative *values* lol

I agree with what you and others allude to... what seems to guide a lot of conservative policies/proposals is thinly veiled (if veiled at all lol) loathing for women, minorities (whether racial, ethnic, sexual and gender, etc), the poor, immigrants, etc.

On an individual level, even *if* a person isn't socially conservative (and as such likely harboring racist, sexist, and/or heteronormative/lgbtq+ antagonistic sentiments)... like others have said I also find their common thread is craven selfishness and greed. These are the people cool with even the most hard right government so long as their family's tax exposure is minimized and they're not directly impacted by any state violence. They could care less about population health and safety, genocide, mass corruption, etc. The only White male conservatives I've met have been of this non-socially-conservative variety (and were also either wealthy or from a wealthy background). Most of the Black (African) male conservatives I've known have been more socially conservative (and are unionized working class but consistently vote against the pro-labor left-wing party in their jurisdiction to support the conservative party off the strength of this conservative values bs). The few female conservatives/conservative voters I've met, whether White or Black, have stated they vote conservative or have always voted conservative because it was expected in their (hetero-)marriage and/or upbringing (which I think speaks to another conversation we could be having about the extent to which patriarchy shapes political values up and down the 'left-right' spectrum).

For me personally, it helps a lot to think about things from a comparative/international angle too tho. For example, a lot of African and Middle Eastern countries lean further right than what's considered an acceptable level of conservatism in the West (eg. countries where being lgbtq+ is still punishable by stoning to death https://www.bbc.com/news/world-45434583), just like some European countries might lean further left. To me, differences between political parties become a lot more subtle when almost every party espouses just the one flavor of the one section of the political spectrum (which I guess isn't always a bad thing and can at times make governing more collaborative eg. Angela Merkel's center-right CDU party's grand coalition with the center-left SPD). In some contexts tho things even seem to flip, like a supposed 'left-wing' party taking its interventionism so far it approaches fascism, or the neoliberalism of a supposed 'right-wing' party actually resulting in a country's most progressive policies/programmes.

For example in Nigeria, it's the 'right-wing' party (People's Democratic Party, or PDP) that introduced a national health insurance scheme for the population (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peoples_Democratic_Party_(Nigeria)#Political_ideology), ended the government's fuel subsidy (https://www.vanguardngr.com/2011/12/fuel-subsidy-removal-how-okonjo-iweala-convinced-jonathansambo-ministers/), and implemented a public-private financing scheme for affordable lending/mortgages to expand homeownership/homebuilding (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nigeria_Mortgage_Refinance_Company). In contrast, it's Nigeria's 'left-wing' party (All Progressives Congress, or APC) that ordered security forces to gun down protesters mobilizing against police brutality last fall (https://edition.cnn.com/videos/world/2020/11/17/lekki-toll-gate-shooting-army-police-lon-orig-mkd.cnn), and also froze bank accounts of organizers (https://www.hrw.org/news/2020/11/13/nigeria-punitive-financial-moves-against-protesters), floated legislation to ban social media and institute the *death penalty* for dissent/what the gov considers 'hate speech' (https://www.theafricareport.com/51915/nigeria-social-media-bill-threatens-death-penalty-for-hate-speech/), and just banned cryptocurrencies (https://qz.com/africa/1970446/nigerias-central-bank-takes-aim-at-cryptocurrency-again/, https://www.nasdaq.com/articles/how-nigerians-are-reacting-to-the-cryptocurrency-ban-2021-02-15). In fact even when attempting to engage in left-wing policy, like Nigeria's N-Power program which is basically a kind of federal job guarantee program for youth, the APC-led government plays the kind of games you'd expect from an anti-labor fatcat corporation (eg. https://www.naijanews.com/2020/02/21/n-power-reveals-when-beneficiaries-will-receive-january-stipend-2/, http://saharareporters.com/2020/04/23/ministry-humanitarian-affairs-accused-converting-n-power-beneficiaries’-salaries-covid-19). And in the end, both these dominant political parties are socially conservative... so for marginalized people in Nigeria such as sexual and gender minorities, they're a long way from having any representation in government to look out for them/voice their issues.

I feel like for clusterfucks like Nigeria, focusing on the 'values' landscape is almost *all* we can do to make sense of the country's politics... because the beacons we typically use in the West to identify who or what is conservative like political party, policy, labels/slogans, gender imbalance, lack of diversity, etc are a lot more ambiguous. In fact what's probably *least* ambiguous is the gaping divide between the values of the more modernized, tolerant, tech-enabled youth of that country v. the values of the aging, tribalistic, militaristic, authoritarian hyperpatriarchal political class. Nigeria's currentpolitical class is dominated by an elderly superminority wielding authoritarian, conservative, and frankly unrepresentative control over a population of which 90% is younger than 55yo lol (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Nigeria#Age_structure). Personally, I don't think change can/will happen in Nigeria until the current political class and its 'values' (regardless of political party) is replaced with officials who instead share the youth's values and/or are members of the younger generations themselves.

So ya. I guess where I'm at is their 'values' seem basic/primitive at first, but in some ways might illuminate interesting synergies we wouldnt detect otherwise using our usual markers. But for sure tho it's complete disregard for women, minorities, the poor, immigrants, and potent selfishness/anti-collectivism that seems to animate conservative people/policies most consistently, whether we're talking at the level of the individual or subnational, national, regional, global, etc.

  

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Damali
Member since Sep 12th 2002
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54. "oooh I like the comparison to Nigeria..this is really interesting"
In response to Reply # 34


          


"But rest assured, in my luxurious house built on the backs of people darker than me, I am sipping fine scotch and scoffing at how stupid you are." - bshelly

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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56. "But are right wing v. left wing the same as conservative v progressive. "
In response to Reply # 34


  

          

I think this discussion has been missing a global and historical perspective and almost all the discussion in here has been very specifically talking about the modern American conservative movement.

I don't know if it travels worldwide. One of the most depressing books I have read is The Fate of Africa: A History of the Continent Since Independence by Martin Meredith and its depressing because its story after story of "left wing" revolutionaries who otherthrow an oppressive government just to turn into an oppressive government themselves.

I don't know much about the history of Nigeria but when I think of left wing versus right wing I mainly think about it in cold war terms in regard to who backed their revolution. If its the USSR, its left wing. If its right wing, its the USA. I think the capitalist versus socialist leaning of the government would somewhat line up with which superpower backed them, but whether they were repressive and totalitarian did not.

Anyway, I will read up on Nigeria now.





>Ya it's definitely way easier to characterize conservative
>*policy* than conservative *values* lol
>
>I agree with what you and others allude to... what seems to
>guide a lot of conservative policies/proposals is thinly
>veiled (if veiled at all lol) loathing for women, minorities
>(whether racial, ethnic, sexual and gender, etc), the poor,
>immigrants, etc.
>
>On an individual level, even *if* a person isn't socially
>conservative (and as such likely harboring racist, sexist,
>and/or heteronormative/lgbtq+ antagonistic sentiments)... like
>others have said I also find their common thread is craven
>selfishness and greed. These are the people cool with even the
>most hard right government so long as their family's tax
>exposure is minimized and they're not directly impacted by any
>state violence. They could care less about population health
>and safety, genocide, mass corruption, etc. The only White
>male conservatives I've met have been of this
>non-socially-conservative variety (and were also either
>wealthy or from a wealthy background). Most of the Black
>(African) male conservatives I've known have been more
>socially conservative (and are unionized working class but
>consistently vote against the pro-labor left-wing party in
>their jurisdiction to support the conservative party off the
>strength of this conservative values bs). The few female
>conservatives/conservative voters I've met, whether White or
>Black, have stated they vote conservative or have always voted
>conservative because it was expected in their
>(hetero-)marriage and/or upbringing (which I think speaks to
>another conversation we could be having about the extent to
>which patriarchy shapes political values up and down the
>'left-right' spectrum).
>
>For me personally, it helps a lot to think about things from a
>comparative/international angle too tho. For example, a lot of
>African and Middle Eastern countries lean further right than
>what's considered an acceptable level of conservatism in the
>West (eg. countries where being lgbtq+ is still punishable by
>stoning to death https://www.bbc.com/news/world-45434583),
>just like some European countries might lean further left. To
>me, differences between political parties become a lot more
>subtle when almost every party espouses just the one flavor of
>the one section of the political spectrum (which I guess isn't
>always a bad thing and can at times make governing more
>collaborative eg. Angela Merkel's center-right CDU party's
>grand coalition with the center-left SPD). In some contexts
>tho things even seem to flip, like a supposed 'left-wing'
>party taking its interventionism so far it approaches fascism,
>or the neoliberalism of a supposed 'right-wing' party actually
>resulting in a country's most progressive
>policies/programmes.
>
>For example in Nigeria, it's the 'right-wing' party (People's
>Democratic Party, or PDP) that introduced a national health
>insurance scheme for the population
>(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peoples_Democratic_Party_(Nigeria)#Political_ideology),
>ended the government's fuel subsidy
>(https://www.vanguardngr.com/2011/12/fuel-subsidy-removal-how-okonjo-iweala-convinced-jonathansambo-ministers/),
>and implemented a public-private financing scheme for
>affordable lending/mortgages to expand
>homeownership/homebuilding
>(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nigeria_Mortgage_Refinance_Company).
>In contrast, it's Nigeria's 'left-wing' party (All
>Progressives Congress, or APC) that ordered security forces to
>gun down protesters mobilizing against police brutality last
>fall
>(https://edition.cnn.com/videos/world/2020/11/17/lekki-toll-gate-shooting-army-police-lon-orig-mkd.cnn),
>and also froze bank accounts of organizers
>(https://www.hrw.org/news/2020/11/13/nigeria-punitive-financial-moves-against-protesters),
>floated legislation to ban social media and institute the
>*death penalty* for dissent/what the gov considers 'hate
>speech'
>(https://www.theafricareport.com/51915/nigeria-social-media-bill-threatens-death-penalty-for-hate-speech/),
>and just banned cryptocurrencies
>(https://qz.com/africa/1970446/nigerias-central-bank-takes-aim-at-cryptocurrency-again/,
>https://www.nasdaq.com/articles/how-nigerians-are-reacting-to-the-cryptocurrency-ban-2021-02-15).
>In fact even when attempting to engage in left-wing policy,
>like Nigeria's N-Power program which is basically a kind of
>federal job guarantee program for youth, the APC-led
>government plays the kind of games you'd expect from an
>anti-labor fatcat corporation (eg.
>https://www.naijanews.com/2020/02/21/n-power-reveals-when-beneficiaries-will-receive-january-stipend-2/,
>http://saharareporters.com/2020/04/23/ministry-humanitarian-affairs-accused-converting-n-power-beneficiaries’-salaries-covid-19).
>And in the end, both these dominant political parties are
>socially conservative... so for marginalized people in Nigeria
>such as sexual and gender minorities, they're a long way from
>having any representation in government to look out for
>them/voice their issues.
>
>I feel like for clusterfucks like Nigeria, focusing on the
>'values' landscape is almost *all* we can do to make sense of
>the country's politics... because the beacons we typically use
>in the West to identify who or what is conservative like
>political party, policy, labels/slogans, gender imbalance,
>lack of diversity, etc are a lot more ambiguous. In fact
>what's probably *least* ambiguous is the gaping divide between
>the values of the more modernized, tolerant, tech-enabled
>youth of that country v. the values of the aging, tribalistic,
>militaristic, authoritarian hyperpatriarchal political class.
>Nigeria's currentpolitical class is dominated by an elderly
>superminority wielding authoritarian, conservative, and
>frankly unrepresentative control over a population of which
>90% is younger than 55yo lol
>(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Nigeria#Age_structure).
> Personally, I don't think change can/will happen in Nigeria
>until the current political class and its 'values' (regardless
>of political party) is replaced with officials who instead
>share the youth's values and/or are members of the younger
>generations themselves.
>
>So ya. I guess where I'm at is their 'values' seem
>basic/primitive at first, but in some ways might illuminate
>interesting synergies we wouldnt detect otherwise using our
>usual markers. But for sure tho it's complete disregard for
>women, minorities, the poor, immigrants, and potent
>selfishness/anti-collectivism that seems to animate
>conservative people/policies most consistently, whether we're
>talking at the level of the individual or subnational,
>national, regional, global, etc.


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

  

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ThaTruth
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Wed Feb-17-21 09:49 AM

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35. "Make America Great Again"
In response to Reply # 0


          

________________________________________
"Stay out the dark, cause if I catch you when the sun is down..."
https://youtu.be/eaaTxVRG06c?t=89

  

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shockvalue
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Wed Feb-17-21 01:45 PM

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44. "Rush: I Don't Even Want to be Alive Anymore (from the onion)"
In response to Reply # 0


          

https://www.theonion.com/i-dont-even-want-to-be-alive-anymore-1819584611?utm_campaign=The%20Onion&utm_content=1613585718&utm_medium=SocialMarketing&utm_source=facebook&fbclid=IwAR3NtNIHVVuSI5-7IXOM2grHHCJP4dW4NOA3nOuzna-JX16lVyoaslIk-bo

I know there are a lot of people out there who are upset about some of the things I've been saying on my radio program lately. My comments about the situation in Haiti have hurt and angered many Americans who genuinely care about the plight of the Haitian people, and that hurt and anger will likely never go away. Many of you are probably wondering, "What would compel a human being to say things like that?" Well, here's your answer: I am a very bad person. And, to tell you the truth, I don't really want to be alive anymore.

Try to look at it from my point of view. I have no reason to live. In my 59 years, I've made millions of dollars, built a veritable media empire, and accomplished virtually everything that a man of my limited imagination and worldview could possibly accomplish. And yet, at this point, in no way could you refer to what I'm doing as "living," exactly. I just sort of exist. I derive no real pleasure from life. Oh, sure, I talk a big game about what a golf nut I am and how much I enjoy the taste of a fine cigar, but it's all horseshit. Complete and utter horseshit.

I don't enjoy that stuff. I don't enjoy anything. I don't even want to be here. The sadness and regret I feel every waking hour of my life is absolutely unbearable. I am a miserable pig and I do not want to exist.

The irony is that, even if I did die, the hell I would surely be sent to could not possibly be any worse than the bottomless pool of excrement I already paddle around in like some demented, shit-covered walrus. In fact, every time I hear my voice coming through the headphones I nearly gag, and I think, "What the fuck am I doing?" Why would I say that Michael J. Fox is faking his Parkinson's symptoms? Why would I find it funny to play a song called "Barack the Magic Negro"? Why would I tell people not to give aid to Haiti?

What the fuck is wrong with me?

I live in constant terror and that terror informs my every word, thought, and action.

See, the thing is, I honestly cannot control the bilious hatred and filth that oozes out of my mouth. I want to—believe me, I want to—but I can't. And every time I speak, a tiny voice inside my head is screaming, "Stop talking, you stupid, insensitive prick. JUST STOP FUCKING TALKING. All you do is spread hate and fear, and the world would be a better place without you, you worthless, amoral, cocksucking fuckface."

What I should really do is just commit suicide. I have this little Sunday ritual I started around the time I publicly compared the torture at Abu Ghraib to a fraternity prank, where I climb into my Jacuzzi and put a gun in my mouth. But I can never work up the guts to pull the trigger. A few times I came close to overdosing on prescription pain pills, but my goddamn doctors were always there to save me. If I had any sense, I would just hole myself up in a Red Roof Inn with a case of Jack Daniel's and slowly drink myself into the gaping maw of death itself.

But what can I say? I guess I'm just too much of a fat fucking pussy to follow through.

You know what? I wish someone would just kill me. I'm serious. Yeah, yeah, I know what you're thinking: "Oh my God, how can you say such a thing? You can't print that in a newspaper!" But see, I don't care anymore. I've cried my tears. I've battled my demons, and I've lost. It's over. It's all over. The only thing left for me to do now is just go away. Have I even once contributed a single ounce of good to humanity? Put me out of my misery. I wouldn't make a fuss. I wouldn't even humiliate myself by saying goodbye. For the first time in my odious, pitiful life, I'd accept my fate with quiet dignity.

Then I wouldn't have to live with my wretched, wretched self. Oh, the release.

I've imagined my death a thousand times over, and it's always the same. In my mind's eye, a serene setting comes into view. I see a funeral procession driving down some small-town Main Street in Nowheresville, U.S.A. On one side of the street, a collection of sycophants and morons are paying their respects in subliterate, sanctimonious tones. Meanwhile, on the other side of the street, I can just make out the faint image of a young boy, his brow furrowed in confusion, clutching the hand of his father. "Who is that man, Daddy?" he asks as the hearse containing my bloated, lifeless body rolls by. "Who is that person they speak of?" The father will then lower his head and say, "There, my son, go the remains of Rush Hudson Limbaugh, the most abominable lump of festering dog shit in the history of American broadcasting. May the likes of him never again soil or tarnish the greatness of our fair country."

Please forgive me, everyone. I am so sorry.

  

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shockvalue
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Wed Feb-17-21 01:51 PM

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45. "Posting this here because I think the death drive is part of this too"
In response to Reply # 44


          

Neitzche had a theory of a death drive in man. Controversial topic but worth exploring as a framework for certain behaviors imo.

If we look at conservatism as the politics of old people, how much of it is about making the world a worse place out of spite, or a lack of "generativity":

generativity noun
gen·​er·​a·​tiv·​i·​ty | \ ˌjen-(ə-)rə-ˈtiv-ət-ē \
plural generativities
Medical Definition of generativity
: a concern for people besides self and family that usually develops during middle age
especially : a need to nurture and guide younger people and contribute to the next generation —used in the psychology of Erik Erikson

  

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mind_grapes
Member since Nov 13th 2007
926 posts
Wed Feb-17-21 03:03 PM

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48. "James Ceaser argues that modern conservatism has one heart and four head..."
In response to Reply # 0


          

At its heart, modern conservatism is defined by its antipathy to liberalism. Whereas intellectually, it is differentiated by its four heads: (1) traditionalism; (2) neoconservatism; (3) libertarianism, and (4) the religious right. You can read a summary of Ceaser's argument below:

https://lawliberty.org/four-heads-and-one-heart/

I, however, have a less charitable take than Ceaser. Modern conservatism, IMO, is increasingly authoritarian. Conservatives are more than willing to compromise on their so-called intellectual principles, in order to rally behind an authoritarian strong man: especially during moments of perceived crisis. According to Nazi jurist Carl Schmitt, neo-conservatism is reducible to the distinction between friend and enemy. And this distinction is far from logically consistent; it is whatever distinction authoritarian leaders are willing to make in order to maintain the legitimacy of their rule -- especially when that rule undermines the existing rule of law and the ability of the legislature to check executive power.

https://aeon.co/essays/carl-schmitts-legal-theory-legitimises-the-rule-of-the-strongman

  

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infin8
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Wed Feb-17-21 04:50 PM

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50. "Bible/Koran/Torah core teachings"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

regarding morality, treating of others, sexual behavior, women's roles

IG: amadu_me

"...Whateva, man..." (c) Redman

  

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Damali
Member since Sep 12th 2002
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Thu Feb-18-21 01:16 PM

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55. "I truly appreciate everyone's replies...reading them all and learned alo..."
In response to Reply # 0
Thu Feb-18-21 01:16 PM by Damali

          

thanks for engaging on this topic cuz i really thought it was gonna be a snark fest LOL

d

"But rest assured, in my luxurious house built on the backs of people darker than me, I am sipping fine scotch and scoffing at how stupid you are." - bshelly

  

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Brew
Member since Nov 23rd 2002
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Thu Feb-18-21 02:32 PM

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57. "Well it kinda was lol. But conservative ideology *is* a joke, so."
In response to Reply # 55
Thu Feb-18-21 02:33 PM by Brew

          

>i really thought it was gonna be a snark fest LOL


"Snark" and "conservatism" kinda goes hand in hand.

That's why so many Onion articles are essentially true haha.

----------------------------------------

"Fuck aliens." © WarriorPoet415

  

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Rjcc
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60. "remember when there was a time"
In response to Reply # 57


          

that it would've been satire to say that conservatives widely push the idea that their opponents are literally coming to rape your kids


www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

  

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double negative
Member since Dec 14th 2007
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Thu Feb-18-21 03:15 PM

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58. "a few things that explain it well, this one put it all into view"
In response to Reply # 0
Thu Feb-18-21 03:24 PM by double negative

  

          

Study: Conservatives are Terrified (and That's Why They're Conservative)
https://youtu.be/1q6mUkj12gY

also, this was from 2004, but the book 'Whats the matter with Kansas' is a good ref
https://youtu.be/lNv5eull29k


as I understand the convervative perspective it would be thies:

the most important thing is the self. communities are built with many individual selves - to have a good community, you need to have a good individual self.

The self is responsible for all good or bad things happening. If bad things happen, it is because the self has failed and that failing is moral.

Poor people are poor because they choose to be poor.

Systemic racism is bullshit. Blacks and other people are not taking responsibility for their actions because they are choosing to be victims, poor and criminal.

Guns don't kill people - people kill people.

Capitalism is important, entertaining any other systems is bad because its a dangerous thing to fuck with a system that drives motivation of the self.

Add in zero sum thinking, obscured racism, antiquated thoughts on masculinity & roles, xenophobia and you got yourself a cake.




***********************************************************
https://soundcloud.com/swageyph/yph-die-with-me

  

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KingMonte
Member since Feb 13th 2006
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Thu Feb-18-21 04:13 PM

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59. "A misery delivery system"
In response to Reply # 0
Thu Feb-18-21 04:16 PM by KingMonte

  

          

...based in death, destruction and white nationalism.
An ideology that would rather see destruction of everything by their hand than anything resembling a shared prosperity.
Assholes.

I have a 400 year old chip on my shoulder.

  

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