One of the main arguments for tipping is that waiters/waitresses don't get paid enough. So tips are essential. Nevermind the fact that currently, by law, they must earn at least minimum wage.

But if the minimum wage gets boosted to $15, this argument goes out the window, right?

It's past time to get rid of this nonsense custom. The customer should have no role in determining how much the employee is paid. Nothing good comes out of it. All it does is:
-Compels the customer to subsidize the company
-Makes it easier to conduct wage theft
-Creates a strange power dynamic between customer and waitress.
-Creates pay inequality due to discrimination
-Forces people to do math

Get rid of tipping. Restaurants just need to raise prices if necessary

Poll result (18 votes) I'm still going to tip (12 votes) Vote I'm going to stop tipping (3 votes) Vote It depends on the situation/restaurant (3 votes) Vote

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i will not let finite disappointment undermine infinite hope
- Cory Booker

Football is a simple game; 22 men chase a ball for 90 minutes, and at the end the Germans always win
- Gary Lineker

never mind if the meal was way worth way more than that.

Y'all buy those labels, I was born supreme

~
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Days like this I miss Sha Mecca

As far as I understand it, they don't even get the federal minimum wage so they wouldn't get the raise to $15.

Undoing how restaurants pay waiters and waitresses is likely going to be it's own fight. I mean, I'm for it but I think it would drastically change the restaurant landscape... especially during this pandemic.

<-><-><-><-><-><-><-><-><->
<-><-><-><-><-><-><-><-><->

Base pay is lower like ($2.14 per hour). But if base pay + tips turn out to be less than minimum wage, the employer has to fill in the gap.

That is unless the employer is stealing wages, which the tipping system makes easier to do.

https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/state/minimum-wage/tipped

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https://soundcloud.com/swageyph/yph-die-with-me

To me tipping isn't because someone makes $2 an hour. It's because I think they did their job well.

>To me tipping isn't because someone makes $2 an hour. It's because I think they did their job well.

If a serviceperson provides good service, you tip. If they provide horrible service, you still tip. Because in America, not tipping is a sign that you're an asshole.

The original theoretical idea of "tipping" (i.e. giving a serviceperson *extra* money because they did a great job, but not being required to do so if they did a poor job) isn't really how it actually works here. Tipping in America is literally *depended* upon by the servicepeople in order to live decent lives.

It's dumb as fuck but unfortunately it's how it is here.

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"Fuck aliens." © WarriorPoet415

more. But it's not something we as consumers can have any impact on by not tipping. That's just giving the short end of the stick to the employees who aren't getting paid enough. It would take a trend of the businesses themselves increasing pay and specifically NOT allowing tipping to get movement.

For example some all inclusive resorts don't allow tipping at all. If restaurants started doing that, and paying their people more, and started seeing business rise because the consumer preferred that model, that could start a trend.

tipping.

It makes them feel like good people.

When you point out that tipping lets restaurant owners off the hook for paying a fair wage they either ignore or deny that. Or that the US is one of the only countries in the world that maintains this custom, they don't care.

They want that rush they get from feeling like they did the right thing by tipping. That's why it's not going anywhere.

And I could see a lot of people not wanting to give that up

A gratuity, as opposed to a tax. I have no problem giving a gratuity for great service, or if I had an unusual demand.

But, if you are just doing your job, I shouldn't have to pay what amounts to an additional fee.

Tips would still be needed. I do think that tipping is an oppressive practice though.

Do you get the urge to slide the 7/11 cashier a few extra bucks?

worker should be in a union. I try to live my values as much as possible, so yeah. I'm that person who slides the pizza delivery guy extra, tips the young girl who does my prescriptions at Rite Aid etc. Shit is so hard for people and this country doesn't care.

San Diego = Tipping still needed.

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Gone: My Discogs collection for The Roots:
http://www.discogs.com/user/tomhayes-roots/collection

We need more math! And logic.

This is a tough question. I think the answer is no tho. There’s too much other stuff to fix besides the minimum salary.

If we have a country and planet that is not totally over not having full-on slavery, getting folks directly paid ‘the right amount’ for their work is forever going to be an issue. Shit, we can’t get most teachers paid.

And if financially fortunate people are supposed to give whenever they can to make a community work the way it’s supposed to, then that has to be considered too. We all seem to have strong disdain for ‘rich’ people not paying taxes properly for instance. Does all of this get fixed just by paying restaurants and restaurant workers more? So then, if you make more, you’ll eat at ‘nicer’ places more often and it’ll all work out?

And, real talk, if folks view restaurants as extensions of the concept of servants/wives preparing meals, then even a solid pricing model is gonna be tough to establish and maintain. So folks will pay $150 to go see a sporting event every now and then but will get broken up if they have to pay more than $10 to eat a combo meal. And what, will a steakhouse plate be even more cost-prohibitive then?

>One of the main arguments for tipping is that
>waiters/waitresses don't get paid enough. So tips are
>essential. Nevermind the fact that currently, by law, they
>must earn at least minimum wage.
>
>But if the minimum wage gets boosted to $15, this argument
>goes out the window, right?
>
>It's past time to get rid of this nonsense custom. The
>customer should have no role in determining how much the
>employee is paid. Nothing good comes out of it. All it does
>is:
>-Compels the customer to subsidize the company
>-Makes it easier to conduct wage theft
>-Creates a strange power dynamic between customer and
>waitress.
>-Creates pay inequality due to discrimination
>-Forces people to do math
>
>Get rid of tipping. Restaurants just need to raise prices if
>necessary
>

they'd be able get paid based on their hours rather than luck and prayer.

yes, I'd stop tipping.

Y'all buy those labels, I was born supreme

earned (and heavily relied on) tips that significantly exceeded my paycheques. These tips helped me put myself through college and paid for car repairs, grad school application fees, etc.

Short of mandatory gratuities (which I believe is the custom in places like France or the Netherlands - https://www.westernunion.com/blog/global-tipping-guide/ - although someone correct me if I'm wrong), why would establishments raising prices even be a desired (or effective) solution lol? Additionally, restaurants + bars aren't the only establishments where tipping is customary... what about all the spa staff and strippers and delivery drivers etc?

Weird post and weird premise. Tipping isn't a nonsense custom, it's just a custom. Workers should be paid a fair wage regardless of this custom.

If you don't want to tip (for any of the reasons you listed or for no reason at all) then don't tip. There's no need for convoluted analysis, is there? It's not like you get arrested for not tipping. But if you end up feeling shitty or get clowned/judged/called stingy for not tipping, then don't complain... because it is in fact the custom *shrug*

And harmful for many other reasons.

The reason I'd want to see the custom phased out is to remove these harmful effects.

Just accepting it as "That's just the way things are done" or "Don't tip if you don't want to" doesn't address the problems that come along with the practice

>RE: It's a nonsense custom because it's nonsensical for many reasons
>And harmful for many other reasons.
>
>The reason I'd want to see the custom phased out is to remove
>these harmful effects.
>
>Just accepting it as "That's just the way things are done" or
>"Don't tip if you don't want to" doesn't address the problems
>that come along with the practice

It's a dumbfuck custom that sucks for literally everybody besides I suppose restaurant owners who are legally allowed - and worse yet, encouraged - to pay their employees doggshit, below-poverty (understatement) "wages", which in turn necessitates an awkward song and dance between and employee and patron. Where, as I mentioned above, it's now my *responsibility* as a patron (as opposed to just being a nice, occasional customary gesture) to provide living wages to an employee even if they did a horrible job, lest I be labeled the asshole in the situation.

That's fucking stupid and assbackwards.

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"Fuck aliens." © WarriorPoet415

Because if not, and that makes you feel like an asshole or whatever (as per your post #22), then that's your problem lol

No need to come up with some capitalism-blaming cop-out for your shame lol

I really think you guys are projecting a bit here

There's no shame involved here - I always tip. Because unfortunately the employees depend on me and all patrons to do so. And that's fucking stupid.

"Tipping" should be case by case, encouraged but not required, for excellent service ... or just if the patron feels like tipping, excellent service or not. And employees should be paid a living wage, whether servicepeople or otherwise, and therefore not entirely dependent on patrons to pay their wages in order to pay their bills.

Italy, for example, is a capitalist country and tips are actively *discouraged* there, so this isn't even necessarily about capitalism as it were. It's just that the dynamic of how dependent servicepeople (in the restaurant industry, at least) are on the unreliable nature of their patrons in this country is assbackwards and wholly non-sensical.

I'm likely not articulating my point very well because I'm writing this while listening in on a call for work - but this has nothing to do with my feelings about tipping servicepeople on a personal level, nor do I have anything against the custom in a general sense. My point is simply just that the way that we practice this custom functionally in THIS country is backwards as hell, relative to what I think was the original idea behind the custom, and how it is practiced in other countries.


>Because if not, and that makes you feel like an asshole or
>whatever (as per your post #22), then that's your problem lol
>
>
>No need to come up with some capitalism-blaming cop-out for
>your shame lol
>
>I really think you guys are projecting a bit here

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"Fuck aliens." © WarriorPoet415

was removed.

I think Pimp's made clear, as per the OP, that he would like to see tipping abolished basically BECAUSE the wage problem (and all it's negative effects) improved. (if a federal minimum wage increase passed into law)

Hence why I think the issue here is really just a personal animus against tipping (which can be present even if you always/reluctantly tip btw lol)

And I should also clarify I'm not trying to bully you guys into supporting tipping if you don't lol; I don't really care and people working for tips (or in my case who have worked for tips in the past) encounter non-tippers all the time, it's not that surprising or serious.

But there's a distinct defensiveness you guys have here that kinda belies your capitalism critiques and hints towards something else going on lol

>was removed.
>
>I think Pimp's made clear, as per the OP, that he would like
>to see tipping abolished basically BECAUSE the wage problem
>(and all it's negative effects) improved. (if a federal
>minimum wage increase passed into law)
>
>Hence why I think the issue here is really just a personal
>animus against tipping (which can be present even if you
>always/reluctantly tip btw lol)

No matter how high the minimum wage ever goes, I don't think the custom of tipping should be "abolished" at all. I don't even know how that would look in practice lol .. would it be illegal to tip ?! Anyway I'd still always tip no matter how high the minimum wage was .. I'd just be happy to know that it wasn't a social obligation, that the serviceperson wasn't wholly *dependent* on me and other patrons to pay their wages for their employers.

So again I'd like to make clear that the idea of tipping in a vacuum doesn't bother me at all personally, it's how it manifests itself in this country that bothers me. I voted red in this poll hah.


>And I should also clarify I'm not trying to bully you guys
>into supporting tipping if you don't lol; I don't really care
>and people working for tips (or in my case who have worked for
>tips in the past) encounter non-tippers all the time, it's not
>that surprising or serious.

May not be surprising (which is sad IMO), but it obviously bothered you in the moment, no ? I don't mean to speak for you, but I have a hard time believing that you walked away from a table you just worked for an hour (assuming you worked in a restaurant setting), noticed that the patron left you a $0 tip, and just moved on with your day without rolling your eyes, calling the person an asshole, making fun of said person with your coworkers, and/or something of that sort ? I know I'd be upset.


>But there's a distinct defensiveness you guys have here that
>kinda belies your capitalism critiques and hints towards
>something else going on lol

I'd categorize my feelings and musings on the subject as hyperbolized exasperation with US tipping culture, not defensiveness. Again maybe I'm not explaining myself very well but I have nothing to be defensive about lol.

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"Fuck aliens." © WarriorPoet415

obligations thing.

If the "amount" people felt obligated to tip decreased (or equalized) a bit in response to fairer wages and better labor conditions, I can see how that might work. The percentage thing really is kind of arbitrary (eg. 2 rich guys can run up a triple figure tab just the same as a large low-income family that just wants to celebrate a hs graduation). I don't think I'd be mad about "big-tipper" culture fading out a bit, and it being totally fine to tip a few bucks for good service whether the bill is $20 or $200


And re: non-tippers... *shrug* I donno, I was never really a tip-hound like some of my other coworkers. I legit just looked at tips as a nice-to-have and not a guarantee (although after doing it a while I got a sense of what I averaged). When business was slow or there was a scheduling mixup I felt it for sure, but I never ever looked at non-tippers as the problem. That said, I also worked with some people who not only had entitled/greedy attitudes about tips but a 1 or 2 who even went so far as to engage in crime i.e. steal from patrons (or the employer) and disguise it as tips. I put shit like that on bad people tho (which can be found in lots of occupations) not on tipping as a practice.


This made me actually lol tho:

>
>I'd categorize my feelings and musings on the subject as
>hyperbolized exasperation with US tipping culture, not
>defensiveness.

haha understood

>If the "amount" people felt obligated to tip decreased (or
>equalized) a bit in response to fairer wages and better labor
>conditions, I can see how that might work. The percentage
>thing really is kind of arbitrary (eg. 2 rich guys can run up
>a triple figure tab just the same as a large low-income family
>that just wants to celebrate a hs graduation). I don't think
>I'd be mad about "big-tipper" culture fading out a bit, and it
>being totally fine to tip a few bucks for good service whether
>the bill is $20 or $200

In my head I was thinking of a theoretical scenario where my wife and I go out to eat with say, two other couples. The service is *awful*, in the sense that the serviceperson is outright rude, neglectful, and on top of that keeps forgetting and/or screwing up food and being unapologetic about it. The food mistakes being things I would obviously forgive were it not for the rudeness and neglect.

Despite the shitty service, I would *still* tip 20% and feel socially obligated to do so in this scenario because of everything we're talking about. And if I decided (I wouldn't, but if) to tip just 5 or 10% or not tip at all because the service was trash, I know that both the people I'm with, and the staff at the restaurant, would in many cases view *me* as the asshole.

That's the culture I want to do away with. And replace it with exactly what you describe, something where a "tip" is a sign of appreciation (something that I would absolutely still do no matter the state of wages) rather than a social obligation for me, and in many cases survival necessity for the serviceperson, even in instances where the "service" being tipped isn't deserving.


>And re: non-tippers... *shrug* I donno, I was never really a
>tip-hound like some of my other coworkers. I legit just looked
>at tips as a nice-to-have and not a guarantee (although after
>doing it a while I got a sense of what I averaged). When
>business was slow or there was a scheduling mixup I felt it
>for sure, but I never ever looked at non-tippers as the
>problem. That said, I also worked with some people who not
>only had entitled/greedy attitudes about tips but a 1 or 2 who
>even went so far as to engage in crime i.e. steal from patrons
>(or the employer) and disguise it as tips. I put shit like
>that on bad people tho (which can be found in lots of
>occupations) not on tipping as a practice.

Gotcha - and that's a credit to you for not blaming the non-tippers for something that is, as we're discussing, a big picture cultural problem more than it is an individual problem. In my experience most people would blame and shame the non-tipper in that scenario.

Re: the people you worked with .... damn, that's fucked up. Haha.


>This made me actually lol tho:
>
>>
>>I'd categorize my feelings and musings on the subject as
>>hyperbolized exasperation with US tipping culture, not
>>defensiveness.
>
>haha understood

LOL I initially didn't mean it to be funny but I laughed when I first re-read it as well. But yea I mean, I know I swear a lot when I talk about this subject - the whole thing just irritates me. But I am not like gritting my teeth everytime I fill out a tip line on a check or whatever hahah.

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"Fuck aliens." © WarriorPoet415

in a tipped occupation and hated the tips you received or something lol? Or, known anybody that has?

I'm just saying it sounds like you *as a person* do not want to/like to tip and you're kinda conflating the harmful effects of low wages with the practice of tipping.

There are other places in the world, with minimum wages higher than what you're talking about, where tipping is unaffected by wage increases. Do you feel those workers are undeserving or something lol?

I just think the wage problem is a completely seperate issue.

I think the discrimination and predatory practices that come along with tipping are the major issues. It's just that people tend to focus on the low wage issue as a reason to keep tipping alive.

My thinking is that if wages are increased, then maybe folks will lose the motivation to tip, and as a result the harms that come from it will fade away.

You are right that I am a person that does not like to tip. I think it is nonsensical. I do it because it is expected. But I would rather the restaurant just increase prices by 30% or charge a 30% service fee.

If it were just the nonsense aspect of tipping, I wouldn't care that much. I have to do a bunch of stuff on a daily basis which makes no sense at all. It's just that this one is nonsense + harm.

bother you the most? And are you sure they're attributable to tipping as a practice? Do we know whether they also exist in other regions where a tipping remains customary in spite of higher wages?

I do disagree with you strongly tho about it being a good thing if tipping in general just faded away (tho obv I'm biased on this point lol) and establishments raising prices (you don't honestly believe those price increases end up in workers' pockets do you? lol).

I'm thinking service fees/mandatory gratuities are probably the only middle ground for pro-tipping and anti-tipping folks, as you allude to. But I also think wage theft would probably increase under such circumstances tbh. Corps always find a way. Tipping workers directly will always be the supreme method imho (if it's allowed). I also worked places where servicestaff managed their own tip pool (eg. contribute 10%-15% of one's tips in a shift), so that other support staff (eg. hostesses, bussers, cooks, etc) who didn't receive tips directly from patrons but obv still contributed to their experience earned part of the tips too. That was dope lol

I'm the opposite.. I tip for service... and I always think about how it felt getting tips and how much I appreciated folks for it... I guess I get the whole opposition to the obligation of it but I was never doing great in life when I was making $15 or under and I'm grateful I'm not still there in life.

Than having to worry about it being a slow day (shouldn't be my problem). Or whether this table likes me or not (for racial reasons or otherwise). Or any of the other things a tipped employee has to consider instead of just doing their job for an agreed upon, fair wage.

There's a million examples of this but a good recent one is this:

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/waitress-says-customer-wrote-mask-receipt-lieu-tip-after-she-n1242611

And this is why the US tipping culture bothers me. This waitress is out of money she depends on to live because some asshole maga nazi doesn't like to follow rules outside of the waitress' (and really, the entire restaurant's) control.

If every patron decided to be a piece of shit that day, that waitress would've worked a full day for like $9 or whatever.

That's bullshit.

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"Fuck aliens." © WarriorPoet415

Without exceptions for certain types of workers.

I don't see how it supports the idea of abolishing tipping altogether.

I see tipping as problematic as a means of subsidizing the employer's responsibility to pay their workers a minimum wage.

But once we fix that issue, that doesn't mean that we should abolish the practice of tipping.

You/me/we are already free to either participate or opt out, for the most part, though there is stigma associated with opting out.

But once everyone gets to that higher guaranteed minimum, I do think that stigma should disappear, though I'll probably still tip, barring some other issue.

I agree. If you read some of my other responses in here you'll see that.


>Without exceptions for certain types of workers.
>
>I don't see how it supports the idea of abolishing tipping
>altogether.
>
>I see tipping as problematic as a means of subsidizing the
>employer's responsibility to pay their workers a minimum wage.
>
>
>But once we fix that issue, that doesn't mean that we should
>abolish the practice of tipping.
>
>You/me/we are already free to either participate or opt out,
>for the most part, though there is stigma associated with
>opting out.
>
>But once everyone gets to that higher guaranteed minimum, I do
>think that stigma should disappear, though I'll probably still
>tip, barring some other issue.

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"Fuck aliens." © WarriorPoet415

I believe in both.. a fair wage and tipping for service..

I think that the situations you are describing are horrible and should not be condoned.. the tip should not be part of the baseline of a living wage or something someone should have to bank and calculate their life based on. it should be cash in hand above and beyond that as an individual gesture of appreciation of the service received.. I don't know I guess the whole obligation factor throws that out the window though..

I don't know for me it's what I do because I appreciated it when I was on the other end... not something I do to try and enable the bastards to keep folks down but I see how it's not cut n dry.

for folks who are discriminated against at the occupational or industry level,no?

For example, a lot of adult entertainers engage in physical labor rivaling other types of dancers and even some athletes... plus they too get injured on the job and face unique risks like violence, sexual abuse, etc. Yet, these workers generally have way less protections than other types of entertainers/dancers/athletes and aren't paid comparable salaries because adult occupations are stigmatized (and, frankly, kind of disregarded).

So if workers in stigmatized (legal) occupations can gross 6-figures in tips a year, I kind of see it as a premium they (rightfully) earn. Just because they aren't recognized, protected, and fairly compensated in the (formal) economy doesn't mean demand isn't there for their chosen occupation, and then on top of that they deal with so much extra shit compared to their counterparts doing other types of dance/entertainment/athletics.

Additionally, there's also unlawfully present people in the US relying solely on tips to survive (if they're working under the table), and for whom a min wage increase would be kinda meaningless.

I'm not saying industries need to be rebuilt to accommodate adult entertainment and undocumented immigrants tho lol... Just that tipped occupations are a bit of an informal economy and safety net for these people and if tipping helps more people/families than it hurts, I'm not eager to see the rug pulled out from under them any time soon...

the biggest wage issue we have, restaurants or otherwise, is the fact our healthcare is tied to our employment and health insurance is extortion.

tipping is the original GoFundMe, due to how reprehensible our government is.

--------

other instances. For food it has been cheapened and subsidized, but it should be a premium job. I think restaurants use gratuity to justify an inflation to their prices, but once we get some justice in payments and sustainability to this labor force I personally would still tip. I think if someone shows exemplary service then it is a nice acknowledgement of their effort.

________________________________________________
R.I.P. Soulgyal <3
SUPA NERD LLC.
Knowledge Meets Nature
Musica Negra
#13irteen

>other instances. For food it has been cheapened and
>subsidized, but it should be a premium job. I think
>restaurants use gratuity to justify an inflation to their
>prices, but once we get some justice in payments and
>sustainability to this labor force I personally would still
>tip. I think if someone shows exemplary service then it is a
>nice acknowledgement of their effort.

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"Fuck aliens." © WarriorPoet415

Not on some mandate shit, but when you wait on me, you're literally catering to my whims.

I want extra this, replace that, easy this, etc, and there's four of us, I'm in a direct position to evaluate your performance from start to finish.

I'm all for the practice.

--
Sometimes you have to look reality in the face and say 'No!'
-Ben (Reaper)

If you need any help, don't. Hesitate to ask.

"What's 20% of...."
Back when I use to be in those places

Tip with emotion! It’s not that hard. 20% of $100 is $20. I dunno about you but I tend to eat out at spots where two people eating and drinking are gonna cost at least $100. So it’s an easy rule of thumb to just set $20 aside in your head as your standard tip and then just wiggle upward or downward a little based on how you feel at the end of the meal.


~~~~~~~~~
"This is the streets, and I am the trap." � Jay Bilas
http://www.popmatters.com/pm/archive/contributor/517
Hip Hop Handbook: http://tinyurl.com/ll4kzz

a simple human agreement.

The restaurant industry is one of the most expensive industries there is, because
the product that is being sold or exchanged is highly perishable. So if a restaurant
can’t sell it or doesn’t sell it, then they have to toss it, leading to an unrecoverable rise
in food cost.

This is why Chain Restaurants dominate the industry, because they have so many ways
to make up for the cost, where a fine dining restaurant or neighborhood restaurant does not. There is a reason why restaurants fail so often. Food cost kills more than anything.

With that being said, now add a minimum wage of 15.00 an hour to the cost of running a restaurant, and that would put a lot of restaurants out of business. They simply would not be able to sustain, especially during the slow season ( Winter).

From a business perspective, waiters receiving tips instead of a salary or expensive wage allows restaurants to hire the labor that is needed without enduring a financial burden. That way, the restaurant can focus on putting its resources into providing quality food items , and improve upon the appearance and feel of the restaurant. I’m sure customers would rather purchase food items at a decent cost, and tip out on that, instead having to pay for expensive food items to cover the cost of a 15.00 minimum wage.

Also, tipping does not curtail the amount of money a waiter can earn. It’s basically a no-limit payment for service structure, that is recommended, but not required. Waiters can make an unlimited amount of money. And patrons not leaving tips or under-tipping is just the nature of the business, but does not kill the business.

And for the simpletons who don’t know how to do math, just move the decimal. It’s not even doing math.

If the bill is 100.00, and 20% is recommended...simply multiple 10x2(20%)= 20.00 tip.
If it’s 30.00, simply multiple 3x2 (20%)= 6.00 tip...all you are doing is moving the decimal one spot. Takes less than 5 seconds to do it in your head.

As a young adult, I paid my way through school, all while having a middle class living
by waiting tables. No other way would have gotten me through school or life at the time.

ALL HAIL THE KING of LOSING: LEBRON
Bulls | Bears | White Sox | Yankees | Notre Dame | Illinois | Chelsea | Real Madrid

... have this problem ? As I noted in an earlier post, Italy and several other European countries' servicepeople don't depend on or even actively *discourage* tipping. Presumably all restaurants deal with a similar problem of perishable product and resulting high risk/costs.

Serious question btw, not trying to corner you.

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"Fuck aliens." © WarriorPoet415

So the pay and cost of living are quite balanced, and Europeans are terrible tippers.
A lot of them don’t tip at all because of how restaurants operate in their countries.

We live in a country where corporate capitalism rules, so the cost of living increases tremendously, while avg salaries barely improve.

All you have to do is look at our homeless population. It’s the worst
in comparison to other powerful countries.

ALL HAIL THE KING of LOSING: LEBRON
Bulls | Bears | White Sox | Yankees | Notre Dame | Illinois | Chelsea | Real Madrid

It has only been sustained this long in the US because after slavery was abolished employers didnt want to pay their black employees.


How long ago were you an young adult? 90s? 2000s? Before the housing crash of 2008? With all due respect, with love, you're out of your lane applying your reasoning to *today's economy.

"They used to call me Baby Luke....but now? The whole damn 2 Liiiive Crew."

Today’s avg salary for adults between the ages of 25-34 is 47,000!

And with inflation, that close to 50,000 i was clearing comes out to about 60,000
to 70,000.

For a young single adult, 50,000 is a good living salary, and I even know some single people with a child who make similar and are able to maintain a decent lifestyle.

And if that person gets married or couple their earnings with a partner, then that’s more buying power.

Now it’s not a good earning if one has multiple children or is responsible for a large family, but does give a good shot at having a middle class lifestyle and doing more than
just surviving.

ALL HAIL THE KING of LOSING: LEBRON
Bulls | Bears | White Sox | Yankees | Notre Dame | Illinois | Chelsea | Real Madrid

The wealth gap has widened at alarming rates the last decade, and covid has added even more to that.

"Average" doesnt mean most young adults are making that amount, its a weighted average that factors in the poorest to the highest earners.

https://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/ali-meyer/1-5-millennials-live-poverty-census-bureau-says

And this is only a 2014 study. Imagine where the wealth gap is for young workers following 2020.

"They used to call me Baby Luke....but now? The whole damn 2 Liiiive Crew."

Try to apply this logic to any other industry.

What would you say to the owner of a clothing store who says that costs (materials, rent, etc.) are just too high so she can't afford to pay her employees properly.

Most would say the store doesn't deserve to be open. Or it needs to be reconfigured (lower costs or increase prices). It's a business that just doesn't work. They wouldn't say that maybe customers should help out through optional charity.

But for some reason people look at the restaurant industry differently. In the restaurant industry, owners can get around this problem by pushing the salary burden onto the customers.

As someone mentioned above, non chain restaurants have no issue surviving in other countries. So there's nothing fundamentally different with this industry. It's just that the tipping system is engrained in us.

You say people won't want to pay higher prices. Do you have evidence of that? What's the difference between 20% higher prices (or service fee) vs a 20% tip?

Even if they won't, they'll eventually learn that this is how much it costs to eat out. Or the industry will disappear.

It’s not something that is limited to the restaurant business. It’s the foundation of
our economy and culture.

You can’t compare America to European countries on anything. Just look at the lopsided
differences in healthcare....so the comparisons are not applicable.

So it’s not the way it is. It’s what makes sense. And again 15.00 an hour would be way less than what waiters are currently able to earn.

The point is to not limit the earning power of the waiter, which is what the wage increase
would do. Also, restaurants would definitely have to double their prices to be able to afford the increase.

So that 14.00 -18.00 steak entree would increase to 28.00 - 36.00. Patrons would not
accept that. There is a difference between recommended and required. Americans
don’t like to be told what to do, which is why Socialism is frowned upon. Now you’re telling them they have to pay 36.00 for a steak, when they were paying 14.00 and tipping out 20 percent on it, and was paying all together no more than 20.00 - 24.00?

Patrons will resent that increase and the service. The law would hurt the patron and the waiter.

ALL HAIL THE KING of LOSING: LEBRON
Bulls | Bears | White Sox | Yankees | Notre Dame | Illinois | Chelsea | Real Madrid

A number of American restaurant chains operate not only in the US but globally incl neighboring countries like Canada (eg. Applebees - https://www.applebees.com/en/opportunities/international/international-locations).

The minimum wage in Canada ranges from roughly ~12CAD to 16CAD, depending on the province:

https://www.retailcouncil.org/resources/quick-facts/minimum-wage-by-province/

and tipping is also customary in Canada. Yet restaurants/bars/hotels etc are able to pay their staff more than $4/hr, service staff are able to make their tips in peace, and the food service business model remains in tact... EVEN WHEN IT'S AN AMERICAN CHAIN. lol

The only difference between what goes on in restaurants/bars/hotels in Canada and restaurants/bars/hotels in the US is that Canadian service staff are being paid higher hourly wages. That's it.

The tips don't even have to come into it. Raise the damn wages. Everybody will be fine.

>And for the simpletons who don’t know how to do math, just
>move the decimal. It’s not even doing math.
>
>If the bill is 100.00, and 20% is recommended...simply
>multiple 10x2(20%)= 20.00 tip.
>If it’s 30.00, simply multiple 3x2 (20%)= 6.00 tip...all you
>are doing is moving the decimal one spot. Takes less than 5
>seconds to do it in your head.
>
>As a young adult, I paid my way through school, all while
>having a middle class living
>by waiting tables. No other way would have gotten me through
>school or life at the time.

Yeah. It was in response to the OP who said people don’t like to do math to
leave a tip.


Get your lakers ass out of here. : )

ALL HAIL THE KING of LOSING: LEBRON
Bulls | Bears | White Sox | Yankees | Notre Dame | Illinois | Chelsea | Real Madrid

>Yeah. It was in response to the OP who said people don’t
>like to do math to
>leave a tip.
>
>
>Get your lakers ass out of here. : )

Kind of a lull right now. Gotta wait for something worthwhile to discuss, and then I'll be back there

So I tend to make almost $30/hr on good nights.

$15/hr isn’t shit.

~~~~~~~~~
"This is the streets, and I am the trap." � Jay Bilas
http://www.popmatters.com/pm/archive/contributor/517
Hip Hop Handbook: http://tinyurl.com/ll4kzz

No way in hell would waiters agree to eradicating tipping for a higher
minimum wage amount.

When I was waiting tables while going to school, I was easily earning close to
50,000 a year. This was back in the middle 90s, and I was only working night shifts.
People who worked day shifts were clearing close to 100,000. They were working from 9am to 5pm, so they were seeing morning rushes, lunch rushes, and after work rushes.

Day shifts were the most desirable shifts, but I went to school during the daytime.
So I had no choice but to work at nighttime, which is the worse shift to work. Bad tips or
zero tips happen more on a nightshift than any other shift.

Also, Latinos and African Americans are the worse tippers. Yes, I said it, god damn it.

Once I got well into my career in technology, it angered the shit out of me to see
well paid African Americans frown upon waiters. I saw people leave like 3.00 on
50.00 -100.00 bills, and they thought they were doing something. I have respect
for people who work, regardless what type of profession it is. I’ll never look down
on a person who is trying to make a living.

I’m leaving at least 20 percent regardless of service. That’s my code. The personality and the service of the waiter have to be extremely poor for me not to tip. And if you
can’t afford to leave a proper tip, do carry out!

ALL HAIL THE KING of LOSING: LEBRON
Bulls | Bears | White Sox | Yankees | Notre Dame | Illinois | Chelsea | Real Madrid

its hard work tho..

and the stories about drunk people would have me flip out

I tried to wait tables and last one night. Ole girl was asking for one thing at a time every time I passed by her. Can I get a cup with ice? Another fork? More this, and then more that. I bucked on her. “ma’am... I’m not running back and forth for you all night.. what all do you want and I’ll bring it to you”

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

$15 an hour was livable a decade ago.

"They used to call me Baby Luke....but now? The whole damn 2 Liiiive Crew."

Obviously customers are willing to pay it.

That doesn't mean they're willing- or anywhere near *as* willing- to pay that same money as part of the cost of food, drinks, or entry fees.

Seattle moved to ~$15/hr plus automatic 20% service fee (not at all restaurants, but many of the good ones). Some restaurants use that service fee to help pay bills, some use it to tip out a formerly tip-less kitchen, some to distribute to the service staff and some a combination of all three. Some just stash it for employee benefit programs, others for holiday parties, others for infrastructure upkeep.

Seattle is also surrounded by Amazon, Boeing, Microsoft et al. money. Who can say if that same approach works in Des Moines, Iowa?

Let's say pre-COVID we brought in $100,000 net in December, always by far the biggest month of the year, but averaged every employee out. Let's say full time floor staff and kitchen staff made $2,000 in wages and part-time $1,000. That comes out to $18,000. Rent is $10,000. Let's apply a flat 30% margin to all goods and say $30,000 was spent on what was sold, with another $15,000 spent on anticipatory sales like wine, spirits, meat and whatnot not sold. At that point you're down to $27,000 and you haven't accounted for taxes, power bill, composting, recycling and trash services, recurring pest control treatments, liquor commission bills and so on. Or that cooler whose motor burned out after being opened and closed one too many times and will cost $1,500 to replace, or the floor you need to get redone over the holiday break.

All it would take is increasing all those hours to $15/hr and suddenly you're at $6,666 for full-time staff (I did choose these numbers somewhat specifically to get to that point, lol, but they're not far from reality) and 3,333 per part-time, which again at 6 each amounts to just under $60,000. Your restaurant is now closed.

So then you reconcile that with your alcohol and food prices. Instead of a 400% margin on alcohol, you could jump to 800%. You've got $20 Old Fashioned, $14 pours of well spirits like Gordon's Gin and Brugal Rum. You could stay conservative with food and only increase those prices by 30% - you're steak dish is now $33 from $25 and so on.

For certain people in certain demographics and municipalities these things can even out and leave you at roughly the same profit margin with fewer customers, but a LOT of places would go under without significant tax relief from city, state and/or federal government. I don't even have to presume myself and the five other full-timers just get paid $30/hr because $15/hr paints a stark enough picture as is.

If you've got a solution better than "keep a handful of family run restaurants and send everybody else to Cheesecake Factory" I'd love to hear it.


~~~~~~~~~
"This is the streets, and I am the trap." � Jay Bilas
http://www.popmatters.com/pm/archive/contributor/517
Hip Hop Handbook: http://tinyurl.com/ll4kzz

As someone who felt an incredible rush of relief, damn near to the point of celebration, when I cracked that $15 barrier a decade ago, the last thought running through my mind was, "ok, now how I can I find a way to decrease or otherwise fuck with someone else's money?"

Actually, that wasn't even the last thought.

It doesn't even enter my mind.

The ONLY argument here should be: everyone gets that minimum.

Everyone. Wait staff included, across the board, no caveats, no employers having to make up the difference, etc.

That's it. Tipping shouldn't enter the equation whatsoever until that happens. It has nothing at all to do with the discussion of a living wage until after the fact- especially when $15 still doesn't cut it as a true living wage in many places.

Once that happens, then this little Resevoir Dogs circle jerk won't look quite as tone deaf.

There is a lot of class-ism among those who talk about caking up off of their tips

You don't need to wait for anything to not tip, unless you go somewhere that adds a gratuity, or does so for large parties.

You literally not required to tip now though, in most situations.

Even then, I'm not sure how that's legally enforceable, and you could just pay cash if you wanted.

That said, the issue here has nothing to do with tipping.

Enforce a higher minimum wage across the board. The end.

No exceptions for certain jobs. You wait tables, you get that 15. period.

Removing tipping isn't the answer to making that happen.
Making that happen is what makes that happen.

And once that happens, knock yourself out with this discussion. Because this discussion is 100% irrelevant to whether or not workers deserve a fair, livable wage to work.

It's about an attitude/culture change.
I just think (hope) that a higher minimum can change people's attitudes on tipping.

Right now, there is not a competitive market for waiters/waitresses. So restaurants will all pay $2.14 with the fallacy that with hard work you can make it all up with tips.

I think if the market opens up and they have to complete for talent, that's going to push wages up overall for all servers. So my criticism is about the industry taking advantage of employees (in addition to my annoyance with tipping in general).

and/or the restaurant industry tanking all together tho.

Where is the flex in folks stating they earned their jurisdiction's minimum wage and tips?? It's literally called the MINIMUM wage lol

And come on, you know that all restaurants/bars/hotels etc jacking up prices would do is limit further who can access a nice/celebratory/break from cooking meal in the first place. The push for price increases is actually the most classist sentiment expressed in this post.

You seem to resent tipping *a lot* ...and I'm not sure why you don't just abstain from participating?? There's plenty of people like you, it's not that big a deal. Choose joy Pimp



>There is a lot of class-ism among those who talk about caking
>up off of their tips

Assuming the 15 gets implemented and applied to all industries, including the service industry...

Every server around will immediately make 15 hr. There will be no incentive for restaurants to pay more than that- otherwise, they already would be paying more.


So, you and your friends decide you aren't going to tip...you probably just cut that server's overall pay. Maybe in some cases the server's pay isn't cut thanks to the 15 I guess.



I get your overall point, but there is absolutely no incentive for restaurants to pay their servers more than minimum and get rid of tipping.

The idea that " if we don't tip wages will go up!" just doesn't hold up. Restaurants will just pay the minimum and let some of us tip and shrug when some of us don't.

Why would they increase wages further?


And honestly, when you think the 15 min wage through, tipping will be reduced naturally because I imagine a lot of restaurants will go to a self-service model. "Pick your shit up when I call your number."

Don't get me wrong, I'm for it...but we are being naïve if we don't think it will lead to changes/ job loss.

I'm personally a lot more concerned with how we as a society subsidize large companies, etc than the pizza shop up the street.

And those waitstaff finally get that same across the board minimum, you've removed the "employers should pay more" objection.

And I just don't see this as a problem apart from that issue.

tipping wasn't even on my radar with this issue.

on all sides.

_____________________________________

Let me guess, I can have "good day" now, right?

"They used to call me Baby Luke....but now? The whole damn 2 Liiiive Crew."

i guess it depends where theyre located. i wonder how much of this applies to most people in the industry.

where i live the median household income is slightly over 40k. that includes two incomes typically right? based on cost of living i think households here need at least $60k to be okay.

after reading through this post i would say that tipping has nothing to do with the minimum wage being raised. it should be raised and we are quite a bit away from tipping not being necessary for many workers. so i would continue tipping.

i do question if i need to add a tip when i place an order for pick up. the option is there. curbside pick up? i can see it, but im walking in to get it? idk. ive seen some drive thrus with a tip jar. not sure on that. if im dining in, at a bar, getting my hair cut no question.

as far as how do you prevent people from tipping, if that ever was the scenario. i know when i worked at walmart we had trainings on rejecting tips lol if you helped someone load groceries in their car your $7/hr was more than good so smile and politely decline. basically, unless they insisted multiple times, you had to decline it. i dont know if that was enforced or how often other people ran into the situation. i think it might have happened once to me. i figure thats how it would go though. it wouldnt be illegal but workers would be instructed to decline tips.

I got my hair cut in Korea and I thought dude was going to slap me for giving him more than he charged.

I definitely wouldn't want to make it illegal. That's impractical. Just discouraged by society (and maybe mandated by individual businesses' policies) and phased out.

Once we resolve the wage issue, what's the purpose- and genuine net benefit- of discouraging the practice, apart from you not feeling stigmatized for not participating?

It's clear the OG has never worked in the service biz.... as well as most who oppose this.

This whole post is way to vague. What industry are you talking about? Tipping happens in tons of industry and it should be thought of as a gratuity.

I worked in the service biz from barista to fine dining. The gratuity increased as did the responsibility. Serving a 4-top wine and food for two hours calls for a different gratuity than making an espresso.

I will also tip my barber, taxi, airport attendants, hotel attendants, etc.



werd.

>This whole post is way to vague. What industry are you talking
>about? Tipping happens in tons of industry and it should be
>thought of as a gratuity.

As I pointed out many times in earlier posts, this is exactly the problem: it's beyond "gratuity" in this country. It's all but an absolute legal requirement.

----------------------------------------

"Fuck aliens." © WarriorPoet415

...especially as it pertains to serving in a restaurant. However, as I think someone on the thread pointed out, there's a real chance that the inadvertent removal of the social act of gratuity due to restaurants having to comply with paying a server's minimum wage would likely earn the average service worker less income. Caveat that with where you work is relative.



werd.