And I’m urging ya’ll to respond with your own recollections of their places in hip hop as you remember it. No fact checking liner notes and interviews.

Diddy- I remember seeing Puff listed as the producer to many of our favorite late 90’s and early 00s tracks. From Mary to Mase, Biggie, Method Man and others. But nowadays we know Puff more for his business acumen and hustler mentality. Music, not so much. It leads me to believe that Puff was just smart about getting production credit for projects he may have had limited involvement in. Meaning, he may have coached an artist to sing it “this way”, or brought the sample source record to the studio and gave it to Stevie J or The Hitmen but... I’ve never heard of Puff being the dude to program a beat or play an instrument. What’s y’all’s understanding of Puff as a producer or beatmaker?

Ali Shaheed Muhammed- Until the early 2000s, I thought Ali was the mastermind behind most of the tribe beats. I couldn’t prove it but I just knew. As the DJ in the group he had to be the most musically inclined right? And Tip and Phife were the MCs. We all know now that Tip handled the lion’s share of ALL the production. But for the longest there was no indication of who did what on those tribe records. Tribe is in the holy grail of hip hop acts, but I have a hard time reconciling what Ali really did in the group. I remember him getting production credit on Mos Def’s first album...he was in a whole other group (Lucy Pearl), and scored the Luke Cage show on Netflix. So he’s gotta have some chops right? What do y’all know about Ali’s input for the first 4 tribe albums? Cause everything I’ve heard is that it was ALL Tip.

"...nah nah...put that one chandelier sound in everything so it always sounds classy..."

Produced by: Nashiem Myrick and Sean "Puff Daddy' Combs

Ali Shaheed Muhammed:

does the scratches on "Oh My God" at 0:32s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OIah18jcJko&list=RDXtrq40oT--Y&index=17

and maybe find the record with them horns in it. And he does all the beat drops. "..shaheed push(es) the fader from here to grenada.."

he had a role in the PRODUCTION...but hew wasn't the PRODUCER necessarily. and that's not to discredit duke in any way.

This is just me channeling my youthful thoughts.

IG: amadu_me

"...Whateva, man..." (c) Redman

beat maker and a producer. some folks could do both. I think Puff was producer, but very loosely. seems like he knew how to make this sounds right for the popular audience. like adding sheen to biggie small's career.

tribe production was Tip and Ali, but Tip was the main guy with Ali being a co-producer. eventually J-Dilla joined in as part of the production team called the Ummah. there were others that would help out periodically.

Y'all buy those labels, I was born supreme

I think when I was younger I thought that puffy didn't do very much but as I've gotten older and see how more and more people try to do what puffy did not a lot of people have been able to recreate it.

I've also grown to appreciate the value of having good taste. I wish Prince had a producer who sole job was to say "that sounds great" or "you need to keep trying" or "that ain't it", later in his career.

I've also come to learn that a lot of people we consider producers producers (beatmakers) on some tracks they just helped beatmakers by being a puffy type of producer and taking some credit for it. I'm thinking Kanye and Doctor Dre.

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"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

Outside of the "listen to how crusty my sample is" purists. No, Puff isn't gonna be on some interview couch talking about how many discs he had to load into the MP/SP for such & such beat, but he could probably take an interviewer through his production mindset at the time. I personally like making music alone, but I can appreciate the mind frame of "This is how I want this to sound and I know who I can pull into the studio to achieve it".

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Twitter & IG: @rulerofmyself
SC: rulerofmyself17

Yes! She's on the drugs. (c) BoHagon

I think dre is different. dre did a lot of beat making and telling folks how to sing/rap. I think Ye did that too for a bit. both of them later had folks turning the knobs for them as the got more popular.

speaking of Ye, found out recently that he worked with Toomp a bit. no sure why, but that kinda surprised me. I think it was more of not knowing Toomp's history. he also worked with Jay-z.

https://youtu.be/DRkinEfyqzA


nowadays, I can appreciate puff's role, but that music wasn't really my thing outside of biggie. I didn't like his the stuff I heard.

Prince needed an editor more than a producer. since he could make anything without restriction, he made anything lol. the folks at warner brothers and whomever was around him at the time seemed to help him with that.

Y'all buy those labels, I was born supreme

Which was the best beat on that album IMO.

.. production credits justify haha. What I mean is that I saw the name "Toomp" and immediately thought oh shit, he produced a ton of beats/songs I love. So I went to check out his production credits and saw next to nothing.

Which seems weird. I could've sworn he did a ton of work with JayZ but it looks like it's just one American Gangster song that I don't even particularly like.

And he did "Can't Tell Me Nothin'" as you said, as well as "Good Life" from Graduation. Songs that I like a lot, but not enough to have elicited my initial reaction upon seeing his name lol.

But now I see that he did a good chunk of his work with TI and the song that resonates with me most is "What You Know" which is a song I absolutely LOVE. So that must be why Toomp's name elicited that initial thought from me hah.

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"Fuck aliens." © WarriorPoet415

but just listening to that interview, he's been all over Atlanta hip-hop since the 80s. working with Shy-D and others. shit was eye opening for me to learn that he was behind some of the music that I grew up on.

Y'all buy those labels, I was born supreme

It's blasphemous to consider them the same IMO.

Puff, for all his brilliance, is more executive producer than music producer. And as many of you have already pointed out, he deserves mega props for what he *did* do for his artists' careers and his contributions.

But he should never be confused with a beat maker IMO.

Dre and Ye, as you astutely pointed out, began their careers as DJ and/or beatmaker, true musical folks who later gave the keys to younger producers to do some of the initial legwork, only to come in and clean things up and sort of play composer in the background to make beats exquisite as opposed to just good beats.

Like you said, they all have their place and this is not meant to disparage Puff or anyone. Puff was brilliant at what he did, for his artists, for his label, for the culture (for better and for worse).

Dre and Ye are different animals altogether from a musical standpoint.


>I think dre is different. dre did a lot of beat making and
>telling folks how to sing/rap. I think Ye did that too for a
>bit. both of them later had folks turning the knobs for them
>as the got more popular.
>
>speaking of Ye, found out recently that he worked with Toomp a
>bit. no sure why, but that kinda surprised me. I think it was
>more of not knowing Toomp's history. he also worked with
>Jay-z.
>
>https://youtu.be/DRkinEfyqzA
>
>
>nowadays, I can appreciate puff's role, but that music wasn't
>really my thing outside of biggie. I didn't like his the stuff
>I heard.
>
>Prince needed an editor more than a producer. since he could
>make anything without restriction, he made anything lol. the
>folks at warner brothers and whomever was around him at the
>time seemed to help him with that.

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"Fuck aliens." © WarriorPoet415

Trackmasters and the hitmen actually produced the music

Akin to suge with Dre and co at death row

IRT Ali, I was baffled after watching beats rhymes and life

Back in the day...the groups were centered around the DJ

Whom usually put the soundscape together for the group

I just assumed that was Ali’s role in ATCQ

After watching Tip recreate beats in real time in that movie...I have absolutely no idea what his contribution actually was on the ATCQ albums

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If you can't understand it without an explanation

you can't understand it with an explanation

word cause i know a few times Mase from de la soul did their cuts!

http://howardlloyd.bandcamp.com

peace & blessings,

x.

www.twitter.com/poetx

=========================================
I'm an advocate for working smarter, not harder. If you just
focus on working hard you end up making someone else rich and
not having much to show for it. (c) mad

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50+ FREE Mixes on www.DJR-Tistic.com!

Twitter and Instagram - @DJ_RTistic

like someone said, he was more of an executive producer.

it actually takes a lot of hustle to get the right people moving in the same
direction to make a hit

once i got to step into some rooms with some major producers it all made sense. You aren’t making most hits with 1 beat maker and a rapper on a major label

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TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

He had a serious run going that was more hits than misses. He gets credit for not only discovering certain artists but also packaging them in a way that got them over. Story is that Andre Harrell didn't know what to do with Mary J. and Jodeci. He found them to be too rough around the edges. Puff saw the roughness and went, "Let's go with that!"

how about making good music and letting people dress in a way that reflefts the music they make?

*mind blown*

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TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

Puff is a producer in the classic sense... damn near movie sense

Producers as we now consider them only came with technology and Hip Hop. w/o the sampler and sequencer, it would've been near impossible (unless you were Stevie wonder virtuoso) to sit in a room by yourself and make "a whole beat".

That being said a beat is not a song.

For commercially viable music, vision and taste might be more important than sheer virtuoso talent.

and Puff had both.

If you take Puff out of the equation NONE of the Hitmen (or his co-producers) could've made Bad Boy what it is or any of the associated artists (Jodeci, Mary J, Big, Faith, Total, Mase etc..)

Shit even Revolt & Ciroc

Double 0
DJ/Producer/Artist
Producer in Kidz In The Hall
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twitter: @godouble0
IG: @godouble0
www.thinklikearapper.com

and if he toned it down he could get the women to love his shit.

which is how we got Pass the Courvoisier

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TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

"Get ready....for your blessing....."
"Bury me by my Grand-Grand and when you can come follow me"

Q-Tip and Puff told him he didn’t have to scream.

____________
Twitter & IG: @rulerofmyself
SC: rulerofmyself17

Yes! She's on the drugs. (c) BoHagon

being said to him in Tip's voice, lol

...I'm from the era when A.I. was the answer, now they think ai is the answer - Marlon Craft

"Get ready....for your blessing....."
"Bury me by my Grand-Grand and when you can come follow me"

Madonna is another artist that it took their longevity and productivity to recognized that their taste and vision was extremely valuable and the value add to the musicians that they worked with.


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

I get the point that Puff had the vision for these artists

and the connections to get it recorded

But to say it wouldn't have happened...at all...w/o Puff is a stretch IMO

---------------------------------------------------------------

If you can't understand it without an explanation

you can't understand it with an explanation

So many people undervalue "The Ear" when it comes to production.

"The Ear" is just as valuable, probably more TBH, than the ability to press the buttons.

This is especially true when you're trying to make smash hits.

Also, most "The Ear" type folks UNDERSTAND the equipment and how it works regardless of whether they can sit down and use it because they have to in order to communicate the ideas they are trying to get off to the people who actually can use it.

From the late 90s. Vibe or Source probably. Stevie J. basically said he'd make a whole beat, and Puff would come in, say it's dope but 'just put a tamborine right there' and he'd get co-producer credits.

Make me realize why Puff was always adding a track with him ad-libbing stuff and talking shit in the background: So he could also get co-writer AND co-performer credits.

To answer your question I recall thinking back then that Puff didn't even know how to operate an MPC, keyboard or mixing console. Classic organize-the-talent-and-let-them-create type of producer, but he stole a lot of artistic credit (and royalties) from the same team(s) he assembled.

I'm old enough to (barely) remember the days of block parties and sound systems. DJs had the big, nice sound systems, the records, the 1200s, the red strobe light and the knowledge of what to do with it. You wanted a real party or show, you needed a DJ (or a band + sound guy). The DJ was the backbone (like it still is for dance clubs).

Now w/ nice house PAs, DATs to tapes to CDs to full digital the DJ became optional. Same with the dancers/hype men that made the show live.


Just my theory.

there for live shows and didn't actually do the production.


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

I mean, I think hes a really effective individual. He has the right combination of trauma, loss, ambition, insecurity, competency, talent that makes for a driven person.

If he didn't go into music I think he would have found success in lots of other areas.

You know who else is kind of similar? Ice-T. I just learned about his life and he was also a hustler and good at what he did. Again - right combo of trauma, ambition, competency, loss.

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https://soundcloud.com/swageyph/yph-die-with-me

He makes good music

but then when you hear his samples there ain't much flipping/chopping working going on.

He seems like the embodiment of perfectionism and having an ear for whats good but it doesn't seem like he's innovating in the way good producers make you rethink music.

is this making sense?

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https://soundcloud.com/swageyph/yph-die-with-me

>but then when you hear his samples there ain't much
>flipping/chopping working going on.

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Navem nu, cuando sol
Tutu nu, vondo nos nu
Vita em, no continous non
Nos nu ekta nos sepe ta, amen

When the sun shades the ship
We sweat and life is not safe
To swim or to touch not
When we unite we hedge amen

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"Fuck aliens." © WarriorPoet415

He did one offs for lots of people from Young MC to Jon B, and somehow people forget he produced Brown Sugar for D'Angelo. In Lucy Pearl he mostly did the drum programming. When Tribe broke up he concentrated on learning the guitar and the bass too I think, go back to around that time when Eric Benet's second album came out he had the opening song on that one too.

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CHOP-THESE-BITCHES!!!!
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Garhart Ivanhoe Poppwell
Un-OK'd moderator for The Lesson and Make The Music (yes, I do's work up in here, and in your asscrease if you run foul of this