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Subject: "where yall at on this Caster Semenya bs?" Previous topic | Next topic
tariqhu
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Wed Sep-09-20 01:11 PM

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"where yall at on this Caster Semenya bs?"


          

this testosterone testing and other methods seem blatantly racist. looking at the vid, you see multiple women that aren't white being questioned.


https://www.vox.com/identities/2019/5/3/18526723/caster-semenya-800-gender-race-intersex-athletes


I am Mokgadi Caster Semenya. I am a woman and I am fast.”

So said the reigning Olympic champion in the women’s 800-meter last year, in a statement challenging rules that could threaten her athletic career.

The rules, issued by the International Association of Athletics Federations (IAAF), require some female runners whose bodies produce high levels of testosterone to take medication to lower those levels. Many saw the rules as a direct effort to target Semenya, who is believed to have a condition that produces high testosterone. The runner appealed the new regulations, but on Wednesday, the Court of Arbitration for Sport ruled against her.

Semenya’s story is about the ongoing efforts by sports governing bodies to develop gender divisions that are fair to all athletes. But it’s also about what happens when an athlete — especially a black athlete — doesn’t conform to other people’s ideas about womanhood.

“Certain bodies are never allowed to be female, are never allowed to be women, are never allowed to just be,” Pidgeon Pagonis, an intersex activist and co-founder of the Intersex Justice Project, told Vox. “What I think this comes down to is, Caster’s faster than white girls and she made them cry.”

Semenya, who is South African, identifies as a woman and has never publicly discussed her medical history. But ever since she arrived on the global scene a decade ago, she’s been subject to constant scrutiny, as the media, the public, and her fellow athletes speculated about her anatomy, misgendered her, and argued that she shouldn’t be allowed to race against other women. Her career is a reminder that when people challenge perceived ideas about masculinity and femininity, their bodies can become fodder for public discussion — often against their will.
Semenya has been scrutinized since 2009

Caster Semenya, as she is usually known in the press, first gained worldwide attention in 2009 when she competed in the 800 meters at the world championships in Berlin. She was 18 years old.

Even before her first race in Berlin, though, others in the track and field world began questioning her gender. A source told the Daily Mail at the time that her “astoundingly quick performance” at a prior event in Mauritius had “prompted suspicions over her gender.”

“Experts were concerned over the way she runs and urged the South African athletics body to test her,” the source said.

The issue seemed to be that Semenya appeared masculine to some observers, and that she was fast.

Semenya went on to win gold in Berlin, but she was also subjected to a battery of tests by the IAAF designed to determine whether she should be allowed to race as a woman. The testing was leaked to the press, and Semenya’s body was analyzed relentlessly by armchair gender experts around the world, as Ruth Padawer reported at the New York Times.

“Could This Women’s World Champ Really Be a Man?” Time magazine asked.

“These kind of people should not run with us,” said one of Semenya’s competitors, Italian runner Elisa Cusma. “For me, she is not a woman. She is a man.”

The IAAF did not release the results of the tests, but media outlets began reporting on alleged leaks, fueling even more speculation about Semenya’s private medical information. Australia’s Daily Telegraph newspaper claimed that Semenya was a “hermaphrodite,” a term that the Intersex Society of North America deems stigmatizing and misleading. A BBC correspondent said in 2009 that Semenya had “testosterone levels that are three times higher than those normally expected in a female” and that “it’s likely that she has some hermaphroditic or intersex condition.”

“There has a lot of hype and sensationalization in the media, making this assertion that Caster’s a man who’s trying to compete with women,” Sean Saifa Wall, a co-founder of the Intersex Justice Project, told Vox. “It’s a lot of fearmongering.”

Semenya was eventually allowed to run again, and went on to win gold in the 800 meters in the 2012 and 2016 Olympics. But last year, the IAAF ruled that runners with testosterone above a certain level would have to take medication to lower it in order to compete against other women in the 400-, 800-, and 1,500-meter events.

Semenya has not stated that she has high testosterone. But she and others saw the regulation as directed at her. “I know that the IAAF’s regulations have always targeted me specifically,” she said in a statement to the Washington Post. Semenya has not responded to Vox’s request for comment.

The runner appealed the ruling, but on Wednesday, the Court of Arbitration for Sport denied the appeal.

It’s not clear if Semenya plans to take testosterone-lowering medication in order to compete in the 2020 Olympics in Tokyo, according to the Post. Her lawyers have said they will consider appealing the court’s latest ruling.

For her part, Semenya says she is undaunted. “For a decade the IAAF has tried to slow me down, but this has actually made me stronger,” she said in her statement to the Post on Wednesday. “The decision of the CAS will not hold me back. I will once again rise above and continue to inspire young women and athletes in South Africa and around the world.”
Her story demonstrates the discrimination people face when they seem to defy gender norms

Semenya has never publicly identified as intersex, a term that, according to the Intersex Society of North America, refers to a person born with “a reproductive or sexual anatomy that doesn’t seem to fit the typical definitions of female or male.”

No matter what her personal medical history is, her story illustrates the way people, especially people of color, can be scrutinized when they seem to fall outside gender norms.

Being intersex is not the same as being trans, but society at large tends to conflate the two, Pagonis said. “And a lot of people hate trans people.”

Meanwhile, “I see a lot of intersex phobia that is heightened because she’s a black woman,” Pagonis added. “Had Caster been a gender-conforming, straight-identified white girl who just was faster than the other people, they would have never invaded her body” by demanding testing, they said.

Over the years, many have compared Semenya’s story to that of Saartjie Baartman, an African woman who was brought to Europe and displayed in freak shows in the 19th century as the “Hottentot Venus.”

“Her body was put on display” for Europeans “to look at it and to gawk at it,” Pagonis said, and Semenya’s treatment “reeks of that legacy.”
Gender divisions in sports are complicated. But the idea of testosterone testing has sparked a lot of criticism.

In denying Semenya’s appeal, the Court of Arbitration for Sport acknowledged that the IAAF testosterone regulations were discriminatory toward athletes with naturally high testosterone. However, the court ruled that “such discrimination is a necessary, reasonable and proportionate means of achieving the IAAF’s aim of preserving the integrity of female athletics,” according to the Post.

The question of how — if at all — to make gender divisions in sports has been much discussed in recent years as more openly trans athletes compete and as intersex conditions become better understood.

When trans cyclist Rachel McKinnon broke a world record for women in her age group, for instance, she received criticism from some fellow athletes and a torrent of online harassment. The IAAF’s decision to use testosterone as a standard replaced the organization’s previous policy, under which the organization retained the right to evaluate athletes if someone challenged their gender, according to the New Republic. This policy was criticized for discriminating against athletes based on appearance.

But experts have also criticized the testosterone standard, arguing that research on the effects of the hormone in female athletes is flawed. The available evidence does not convincingly show that high testosterone actually gives women an advantage in the 400-, 800-, and 1,500-meter races, bioethicist Silvia Camporesi and her co-authors Simon Franklin and Jonathan Ospina Betancurt wrote in a blog post at the British Journal of Sports Medicine last year.

Moreover, “the question of whether testosterone confers an advantage does not settle the question of whether an advantage would be unfair,” as Camporesi wrote in a statement to media in reaction the court’s verdict Wednesday.

Many physical characteristics give people an advantage in sports, advocates note, but no one demands that they change those characteristics.

Swimmer Michael Phelps has exceptionally long arms, which gives him an advantage in his sport, Pagonis said. “But nobody’s suggesting that his arms should be shortened.”

Hormones and intersex conditions are treated differently because they relate to sex and gender, “which are such taboo topics in society,” Pagonis said.

Semenya and her legal team now have 30 days to appeal the court’s ruling. No matter what happens, Semenya has already shown that “she’s an amazingly resilient person,” Pagonis said, noting that the athlete often posts subtle digs at her critics on social media.

On Thursday, the athlete tweeted a meme reading, “They laugh at me because I am different. I laugh at them because they’re all the same.”

Y'all buy those labels, I was born supreme

  

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Topic Outline
Subject Author Message Date ID
This is terrible. goal posts always move when a black woman dominates
Sep 09th 2020
1
I hope not, but they seem like they're gonna to fuck up
Sep 09th 2020
5
Everything they've put her through over the years is insane.
Sep 09th 2020
2
I see.
Sep 09th 2020
6
She's a beautiful runner and track* loses by benching her
Sep 09th 2020
3
alladis!
Sep 09th 2020
7
Thanks-- esp for that context nm
Sep 09th 2020
8
      I missed a bit on the 400m thing
Sep 09th 2020
9
Elisa Cusma hasn't raced in a half decade
Sep 09th 2020
4
Most people just don't understand biology.
Sep 10th 2020
10
Where's Tha Truth? This is right up his alley.
Sep 10th 2020
11
Usain Bolt should have been banned
Sep 10th 2020
12

Brotha Sun
Member since Dec 31st 2009
6778 posts
Wed Sep-09-20 02:55 PM

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1. "This is terrible. goal posts always move when a black woman dominates"
In response to Reply # 0


          

They pulled so much fuckery with serena.

I wonder if any of these "regulations" will actually stick.

"They used to call me Baby Luke....but now? The whole damn 2 Liiiive Crew."

  

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tariqhu
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Wed Sep-09-20 09:08 PM

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5. "I hope not, but they seem like they're gonna to fuck up"
In response to Reply # 1


          

her career with it.

Y'all buy those labels, I was born supreme

  

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shamus
Member since Oct 18th 2004
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Wed Sep-09-20 02:57 PM

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2. "Everything they've put her through over the years is insane."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          


--
the untold want by life and land ne'er granted
now voyager sail thou forth to seek and find

  

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tariqhu
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Wed Sep-09-20 09:10 PM

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6. "I see."
In response to Reply # 2


          

I just started following it recently. its wild.

Y'all buy those labels, I was born supreme

  

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Walleye
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Wed Sep-09-20 03:05 PM

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3. "She's a beautiful runner and track* loses by benching her"
In response to Reply # 0


          

This is such a dumb, racist, manufactured problem. Semenya's not even a threat to the obviously-doped-to-the-gills Eastern Bloc 400/800 records that are still standing and treated (if not popularly regarded) as legitimate. And she's not even that versatile - her 400 PR is actually pretty pedestrian for a world class 800m runner, and the few times she's dipped her toe in the 1500m were pretty interesting but that event is positively loaded right now and I doubt I'd even call her a favorite to medal among Hassan and Dibaba and Houlihan and Kipyegon.

Fuck, Kipyegon just had a baby and is dealing with this weird COVID season and she's still ran a 2:29 1000m this past weekend.

Point is, the only reason we're arguing about Semenya is that IAAF and the hot-take-seeking sports media decided we needed to have a conversation about Semenya and that they forced that conversation by leaking her private medical information awhile ago.

You don't need to care about testosterone or a definition of sex that's pinned to chromosomes to look at a deeply talented runner who is still pretty well within the boundaries of world class female performance in 800/1500m. She's not damaging the sport any more than Usain Bolt did by just ... being better than everybody else.

*so does the world, obviously

______________________________

"Walleye, a lot of things are going to go wrong in your life that technically aren't your fault. Always remember that this doesn't make you any less of an idiot"

--Walleye's Dad

  

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tariqhu
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Wed Sep-09-20 09:11 PM

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7. "alladis!"
In response to Reply # 3
Wed Sep-09-20 09:12 PM by tariqhu

          

so much bullshit to put someone through. there's not win for anyone if she's out of the sport.

Y'all buy those labels, I was born supreme

  

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vik
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Wed Sep-09-20 09:25 PM

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8. "Thanks-- esp for that context nm"
In response to Reply # 3


  

          

---

But hell, what do I know?

  

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Walleye
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Wed Sep-09-20 09:56 PM

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9. "I missed a bit on the 400m thing"
In response to Reply # 8


          

I remembered a couple years ago she really hadn't popped anything too interesting at the distance, but she's apparently run 49.xx, which is legitimately quite good.

Still stand by the rest of my point - she's great within the normal spectrum of great runners, not beyond it.

And whether it's Flo-Jo's mysterious "no wind" reading on her 100m world record or the substantial, documented doping programs of the eastern bloc athletes, or both Dibaba's suspicious training group, or the big rash of Chinese records that people think were run on a short track in the 90s - women's track has always been wild. But Semenya didn't have to be a controversy.

______________________________

"Walleye, a lot of things are going to go wrong in your life that technically aren't your fault. Always remember that this doesn't make you any less of an idiot"

--Walleye's Dad

  

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Walleye
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Wed Sep-09-20 03:13 PM

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4. "Elisa Cusma hasn't raced in a half decade"
In response to Reply # 0


          

>“These kind of people should not run with us,” said one of
>Semenya’s competitors, Italian runner Elisa Cusma. “For
>me, she is not a woman. She is a man.”

This woman's prime (she ran 1:58 so she was pretty good) would have coincided with some of the most egregious North African doping of the early 00's and the Russian doping program of the later 00's. She has a legitimate beef with cheaters at these distances stealing money from her. But this is what she is on record objecting to. Racist dummy.

I'm actually going to guess that she said this awhile ago, while she was still competing. Can't think of any reason for a journalist to go to an obscure Italian talent who was winding up her career as Semenya was getting started for a *current* point of view. But either way, they could have just... not.

Track has all kinds of problems and huge obstacles to building a larger audience without inventing new categories of cheating, where you can do it passively, by simply existing the body you've always had.

______________________________

"Walleye, a lot of things are going to go wrong in your life that technically aren't your fault. Always remember that this doesn't make you any less of an idiot"

--Walleye's Dad

  

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Backbone
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Thu Sep-10-20 03:18 AM

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10. "Most people just don't understand biology."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

What they get taught in school is often a gross oversimplification of the infinitely intricate reality. When I was in high school, sex was reduced to "XX = female, XY = male". When in reality you need a fucking flow chart to somewhat correctly represent all the variations and nuances in humans:

https://static.scientificamerican.com/sciam/assets/File/Pitch_sketch_final.png

Hormones are also commonly misunderstood as being "male" or "female" when in reality they can do tons of different stuff depending on genes, environment, etc. A common misconception is that testosterone promotes aggression, for example. True in some cases, more or less the opposite in others. I don't think the relation to muscle mass is as controversial, but I'd put money on there being tons of other factors involved that we either don't know or don't care about.

And then you haven't even started to untangle it from all the cultural ideas around sex, gender and in this case also "race".

I think it's a mess that can't really be solved as long as people still think there is such a thing as a level biological playing field to begin with. Competitive sports are built on a foundation of sand that will continue to erode as we learn more about our biology.

It sucks because completely bonafide athletes get treated like cheaters or criminals because their biology happens to deviate from the cultural norm.

I don't know if there really is a solution to this other than deciding that "fair" competitive sports don't really exist. I guess the idea is that you draw a line in the sand somewhere, but that will always be arbitrary and cause perfectly honest people to get vilified just for being themselves.

___________________
"So this is what everybody's always talking about! Diablo! If only I'd known. The beauty! The beauty!"

  

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KiloMcG
Member since Jan 01st 2008
27561 posts
Thu Sep-10-20 08:56 AM

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11. "Where's Tha Truth? This is right up his alley."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

I think I have the poster right. I'm terrible with screen names.

  

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PimpTrickGangstaClik
Member since Oct 06th 2005
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Thu Sep-10-20 10:04 AM

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12. "Usain Bolt should have been banned"
In response to Reply # 0


          

Genes too good. By all accounts (even from himself), he was lazy in training.

Ban the East African distance runners while we're at it too. Genes too good.

Matter of fact, ban everyone who is not average in every physiological dimension.

  

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