its a complicated issue, there are a lot of conversations and protests and "defund the police" movements...

One of the main issues I feel is that aside from the current administration most police depts are under local control and the federal government has little if any input. Eric Garner and Mike Brown happened with Obama in office. Outside of some DOJ civil rights violation investigations which usually seem to not amount to much it doesn't seem like a lot can be done on the federal/national level.

Dick Gregory has the best idea that I've heard so far...:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DzSQe8AsQg8

Police reform will have to happen on a city by city, county by county, state by state basis. We already know how politically divided the country is now and we saw what the push back was to Kaepernick just taking a knee, who knows how the opposition will try to spin the current sports protests. I can't wait to hear what 45 and the rest of the folks at the RNC have to say.

you know, the same power they used to get states to ‘get in line’ and make these kids go back to school.

know where they fall on this issue

unions might help? That’s really all I got and one thing that all police departments have in common and seems to be used to protect bad police, incompetent police and racist police.

I think perhaps disbanding the police union and taking a co-op approach to community policing.

Also, stop having police respond to every accident or “emergency”. I think this is more along the lines of what the goal of some reformers who want to “defund” the police want to accomplish.

Have mental health experts respond to homeless issues, domestic violence experts respond to those issues and be the first to respond to such incidents and play a primary role in diffusing the situation and have the police play a secondary/backup role.

Want to stop giving them excess military equipment like Obama did, now that’s a huge fight.

Honestly disbanding the union would be tough, especially for democrats to push that since they support unions and it is a slippery slope. However, it can be done because the republicans have already done a lot of the hard work with their anti-union rhetoric and attacking unions. It’s not a big leap or hard for democrats to sale to the American public that a lot of these “bad apple” police officers are due to unions protecting them and if we can just get rid of the police union we can reduce police shootings.

You are already seeing a push/conversation to stop fired police officers from precinct jumping by creating a national database to track fired police officers.

>You are already seeing a push/conversation to stop fired
>police officers from precinct jumping by crating a national
>database to track fired police officers.

the guy that killed Tamir Rice was fired from the town over for
being incompetent then Cleveland PD hired him

for cities and police departments.

I believe one thing that would help would be gun control. Police know how easy it is to obtain a gun, legally or illegally so they probably just assume everyone has a gun. If we could somehow reduce guns in the streets and have real meaningful gun control that could help reduce some shootings.

an unarmed blacks are shot and killed.

>for cities and police departments.
>
>I believe one thing that would help would be gun control.
>Police know how easy it is to obtain a gun, legally or
>illegally so they probably just assume everyone has a gun. If
>we could somehow reduce guns in the streets and have real
>meaningful gun control that could help reduce some shootings.

________________________________________
"Take the surprise out your voice Shaq."-The REAL CP3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2H5K-BUMS0

I would love to see this happen, destroy that wall that protects them from accountability.

someone that can consolidate ideas then convey it in a way people understand.

I can’t see it...

Autonomy

Autonomy

Is the only answer.

These people at no level are fit to rule over us.

Executive

Judicial

Legislative

Municipal

State

Or federal

Unfit to rule.

<----

Soundcloud.com/aquil84

(HIP HOP)
http://aquil.bandcamp.com

>Autonomy
>
>Autonomy
>
>Is the only answer.
>
>These people at no level are fit to rule over us.
>
>Executive
>
>Judicial
>
>Legislative
>
>Municipal
>
>State
>
>Or federal
>
>Unfit to rule.

________________________________________
"Take the surprise out your voice Shaq."-The REAL CP3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2H5K-BUMS0

food, clothing, shelter.

And leave this place. Our people flooded to the North and West to escape racism only to have more traps set for our people.

Our experience here has been one of subjugation and exploitation.

Leave or separate and have our own nation here(which can be covertly or overtly done).

<----

Soundcloud.com/aquil84

(HIP HOP)
http://aquil.bandcamp.com

most African nations have different but as many as issues as we do here

________________________________________
"Take the surprise out your voice Shaq."-The REAL CP3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2H5K-BUMS0

?

<----

Soundcloud.com/aquil84

(HIP HOP)
http://aquil.bandcamp.com

nowhere in Africa but I have several friends who have moved HERE from there.

________________________________________
"Take the surprise out your voice Shaq."-The REAL CP3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2H5K-BUMS0

Jacob Blake handcuffed to his hospital bed, family say

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-53950621

Jacob Blake, the black man shot seven times in the back by police in the US state of Wisconsin, has been handcuffed to his hospital bed, his family says.

Mr Blake was paralysed by the shooting and it is not clear if he will recover.

Police in Kenosha told the BBC that Mr Blake was in custody for previous warrants and the handcuffs were policy.

Meanwhile, a court hearing for a teenager charged with killing two people during unrest over Mr Blake's shooting has been delayed by a month.

Kyle Rittenhouse, 17, had been due to appear before a court in Lake County, Illinois, for a hearing on a request to have him extradited to Wisconsin. But a judge postponed the extradition hearing until 25 September, the Associated Press reported.

Mr Rittenhouse did not appear during Friday's brief video conference.

He faces six criminal counts, including first-degree intentional homicide, first-degree reckless homicide and possession of a dangerous weapon below the legal age of 18.

Kyle Rittenhouse is being defended by a prominent legal firm whose clients have included President Donald Trump's personal attorney Rudolph Giuliani and former Trump adviser Carter Page, according to Reuters news agency.

Mr Blake's shooting in the city of Kenosha sparked demonstrations there and in other cities across the US. It has been relatively quiet for the past two nights.

Mr Blake's father, also called Jacob Blake, spoke to reporters after visiting his son in hospital.

"I hate it that he was laying in that bed with the handcuff on to the bed," he said, quoted by the Chicago Sun-Times. "He can't go anywhere. Why do you have him cuffed to the bed?"

Mr Blake's lawyers have said it will take "a miracle" for him to walk again.

Lt Eric Klinkhammer, of the Kenosha County Sheriff's Department, told the BBC: "Mr Blake is in custody for previous felony warrants. Our policy indicates that all people in custody outside of our jail facility shall be secured with restraints."

Wisconsin Governor Tony Evers, asked by reporters if he was concerned that Mr Blake had been handcuffed to his bed, said: "Hell yes."

"I would have no personal understanding why that would be necessary," he said. "Certainly he's paid a horrific price already, been shot seven or eight times in the back."

On Thursday the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) called for the immediate resignation of Kenosha's police chief and county sheriff, accusing them of defending "white supremacy" and "demonizing people who were murdered for exercising their First Amendment rights and speaking out against police violence".

How did the shooting happen?
The circumstances that led up to Mr Blake's shooting are still under investigation.

Wisconsin Attorney-General Josh Kaul said officers were called to an address after a woman reported that "her boyfriend was present and was not supposed to be on the premises".


While there, officers tried to arrest Mr Blake, initially using a taser against him. After Mr Blake opened his car door, officer Rusten Sheskey - who has been in the Kenosha Police Department for seven years - fired seven shots into Mr Blake's back.

"No other officer fired their weapon," Mr Kaul said.

Mr Kaul added that officers "recovered a knife from the driver's side floorboard" of the car. No other weapon was found in the vehicle.

Rusten Sheskey and another officer have since been placed on administrative leave.

What about Kyle Rittenhouse?
The 17-year-old had told journalists it was "his job" to guard buildings in Kenosha against protesters.

Videos on social media appeared to show a man with a rifle being chased by a crowd before he fell to the ground and appeared to fire at them.

Joseph Rosenbaum, 36 and Anthony Huber, 26, both died in the incident. Gaige Grosskreutz, also 26, was injured.

Mr Rittenhouse was arrested at his mother's house in Antioch, Illinois on Wednesday.

________________________________________
"Take the surprise out your voice Shaq."-The REAL CP3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2H5K-BUMS0

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/05/us/jacob-blake-kenosha-rusten-sheskey.html?smtyp=cur&smid=tw-nytimes

peace & blessings,

x.

www.twitter.com/poetx

=========================================
I'm an advocate for working smarter, not harder. If you just
focus on working hard you end up making someone else rich and
not having much to show for it. (c) mad

Should be straight in a few more months. Blake family gonna get paid if they haven’t already. Chill.

Everything has been figured out except how to live.

i look forward to a whole lot of "You guys thought Biden/Harris would solve all your problems!" over the next few years.

even though no one thinks or ever said that shit

----------------------------------------

"Fuck aliens." © WarriorPoet415

via the Crime Bill? LOL

Rest In Peace, Bad News Brown

It will take wide ranging federal legislation for any real change.

Since that won't happen, the only real path to a solution is strategic violent retaliation.

_____________________________________

Let me guess, I can have "good day" now, right?

empire that places it's foot on the necks of Stolen Africans. They are not fit to govern over our people especially but people in general.

<----

Soundcloud.com/aquil84

(HIP HOP)
http://aquil.bandcamp.com

since y'all keep putting defund in quotes like it ain't realistic...

abolish that shit.

bye.

d

"But rest assured, in my luxurious house built on the backs of people darker than me, I am sipping fine scotch and scoffing at how stupid you are." - bshelly

"i do more for both our communities than you'll ever know." - Heinz
"But rest assured, in my luxurious house built on the backs of people darker than me, I am sipping fine scotch and scoffing at how stupid you are." - bshelly

"i do more for both our communities than you'll ever know." - Heinz
"But rest assured, in my luxurious house built on the backs of people darker than me, I am sipping fine scotch and scoffing at how stupid you are." - bshelly

"i do more for both our communities than you'll ever know." - Heinz
"But rest assured, in my luxurious house built on the backs of people darker than me, I am sipping fine scotch and scoffing at how stupid you are." - bshelly

https://thenewpress.com/blog/three-steps-toward-police-abolition

further learning:
https://www.amazon.com/No-More-Police-Case-Abolition/dp/162097732X

https://abolitionistfutures.com/full-reading-list

d

"i do more for both our communities than you'll ever know." - Heinz
"But rest assured, in my luxurious house built on the backs of people darker than me, I am sipping fine scotch and scoffing at how stupid you are." - bshelly

________________________________________
"Take the surprise out your voice Shaq."-The REAL CP3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2H5K-BUMS0

"i do more for both our communities than you'll ever know." - Heinz
"But rest assured, in my luxurious house built on the backs of people darker than me, I am sipping fine scotch and scoffing at how stupid you are." - bshelly

let me let you in on a little secret, I know a ton of people from Africa in this country and the majority of them are not thinking about going back

________________________________________
"Take the surprise out your voice Shaq."-The REAL CP3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2H5K-BUMS0

.

--

Woe unto him who in this world courts not dishonor.

"i do more for both our communities than you'll ever know." - Heinz
"But rest assured, in my luxurious house built on the backs of people darker than me, I am sipping fine scotch and scoffing at how stupid you are." - bshelly

https://youtu.be/Ph33sUTNcWk

On this one, I am with Damali. Get rid of it.......all of it. There is no reform. I don't have the answers but I do have a point of view and since this is a discussion, here it goes.
You cannot have a system where in order to get the job, you must be anti-Black. A position that requires and incentivizes you to be overly aggressive and punitive towards Black society. They say they are getting crime off the streets and drug dealers when in reality they are terrorizing whole Black communities.
Those Black cops who murdered Tyre didn't feel guilt or shame. As a matter of fact, they felt they could get away with it. Why? Because the system supports them. We have to create a form of policing that is not built off the oppression, exploitation, and subjugation of Black society. Racial sensitivity classes and therapy is not it. Get rid of it all from the top down. It's unlikely which is why we all need to start thinking outside the system.
Due to the systemic nature of the problem and the time it'll take to fix it, another outrageous incident will happen and this thread will pop back up again.
Everything in this American system is anti-Black; from the educational (...lack of funding/over punishment of Black students), to environmental (....pollution in predominately Black communities), to the financial (...either unable to get loans for homes/start businesses or if so, the rates are extremely predatory).
Every color and race can have a role in systemic white supremacy as long as they work to keep that system in place. The genius of it being systemic is its avoidance of the obvious. Ryan Coogler almost lost his life last year due to a Black bank teller calling the cops. Coogler wanted to withdraw an amount of money she thought he shouldn't have.
A Black face in a high place (..or in an authoritative position) holds very little weight and does not mean what it once did back in the day. Especially where in order to obtain that position, you are screened and vetted thus being sure you are anti-Black and won't work against the systemnin place.
For Black people to have absolute justice, the American system has to be demolished and rebuilt in its entirety. Until then, we are just comfortably living in subjugation and everything else will continue.

with the amount of guns, crime etc we have to have some form of law enforcement to suggest otherwise is just silly

________________________________________
"Take the surprise out your voice Shaq."-The REAL CP3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2H5K-BUMS0

Look no further than the initial statement about the "incident" before the video was released.

The chief would have covered up for her officers to the bitter end had the video not been released.

And this happens time and time again.


>On this one, I am with Damali. Get rid of it.......all of it.
>There is no reform. I don't have the answers but I do have a
>point of view and since this is a discussion, here it goes.
>You cannot have a system where in order to get the job, you
>must be anti-Black. A position that requires and incentivizes
>you to be overly aggressive and punitive towards Black
>society. They say they are getting crime off the streets and
>drug dealers when in reality they are terrorizing whole Black
>communities.
>Those Black cops who murdered Tyre didn't feel guilt or shame.
>As a matter of fact, they felt they could get away with it.
>Why? Because the system supports them. We have to create a
>form of policing that is not built off the oppression,
>exploitation, and subjugation of Black society. Racial
>sensitivity classes and therapy is not it. Get rid of it all
>from the top down. It's unlikely which is why we all need to
>start thinking outside the system.
>Due to the systemic nature of the problem and the time it'll
>take to fix it, another outrageous incident will happen and
>this thread will pop back up again.
>Everything in this American system is anti-Black; from the
>educational (...lack of funding/over punishment of Black
>students), to environmental (....pollution in predominately
>Black communities), to the financial (...either unable to get
>loans for homes/start businesses or if so, the rates are
>extremely predatory).
>Every color and race can have a role in systemic white
>supremacy as long as they work to keep that system in place.
>The genius of it being systemic is its avoidance of the
>obvious. Ryan Coogler almost lost his life last year due to a
>Black bank teller calling the cops. Coogler wanted to withdraw
>an amount of money she thought he shouldn't have.
>A Black face in a high place (..or in an authoritative
>position) holds very little weight and does not mean what it
>once did back in the day. Especially where in order to obtain
>that position, you are screened and vetted thus being sure you
>are anti-Black and won't work against the systemnin place.
>For Black people to have absolute justice, the American system
>has to be demolished and rebuilt in its entirety. Until then,
>we are just comfortably living in subjugation and everything
>else will continue.

----------------------------------------

"Fuck aliens." © WarriorPoet415

>Look no further than the initial statement about the
>"incident" before the video was released.
>
>The chief would have covered up for her officers to the bitter
>end had the video not been released.
>
>And this happens time and time again.

Of course not the chief is the person that started “scorpion” units based off what she had done previously in ATL

________________________________________
"Take the surprise out your voice Shaq."-The REAL CP3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2H5K-BUMS0

Listen to your logic.

Get rid of police because it's anti-black. Everything in this American system is anti-black, from Education, to environmental, to the financial.

So are you advocating burning everything down?

That's the fatalism and cynicism of Abolish the Police Movement I can't get with.

The Abolish the Police folks aren't trying to fix anything. They not running for office. They not working to craft legislation. They just want to burn the whole thing down.

It's a cynical academic position from people who aren't serious about actually fixing the problem.

It's really just a variation of "Fuck the Police" which expresses a valid sentiment that people feel, but doesn't represent policy or a framework to fix anything.


>On this one, I am with Damali. Get rid of it.......all of it.
>There is no reform. I don't have the answers but I do have a
>point of view and since this is a discussion, here it goes.
>You cannot have a system where in order to get the job, you
>must be anti-Black. A position that requires and incentivizes
>you to be overly aggressive and punitive towards Black
>society. They say they are getting crime off the streets and
>drug dealers when in reality they are terrorizing whole Black
>communities.
>Those Black cops who murdered Tyre didn't feel guilt or shame.
>As a matter of fact, they felt they could get away with it.
>Why? Because the system supports them. We have to create a
>form of policing that is not built off the oppression,
>exploitation, and subjugation of Black society. Racial
>sensitivity classes and therapy is not it. Get rid of it all
>from the top down. It's unlikely which is why we all need to
>start thinking outside the system.
>Due to the systemic nature of the problem and the time it'll
>take to fix it, another outrageous incident will happen and
>this thread will pop back up again.
>Everything in this American system is anti-Black; from the
>educational (...lack of funding/over punishment of Black
>students), to environmental (....pollution in predominately
>Black communities), to the financial (...either unable to get
>loans for homes/start businesses or if so, the rates are
>extremely predatory).
>Every color and race can have a role in systemic white
>supremacy as long as they work to keep that system in place.
>The genius of it being systemic is its avoidance of the
>obvious. Ryan Coogler almost lost his life last year due to a
>Black bank teller calling the cops. Coogler wanted to withdraw
>an amount of money she thought he shouldn't have.
>A Black face in a high place (..or in an authoritative
>position) holds very little weight and does not mean what it
>once did back in the day. Especially where in order to obtain
>that position, you are screened and vetted thus being sure you
>are anti-Black and won't work against the systemnin place.
>For Black people to have absolute justice, the American system
>has to be demolished and rebuilt in its entirety. Until then,
>we are just comfortably living in subjugation and everything
>else will continue.


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

________________________________________
"Take the surprise out your voice Shaq."-The REAL CP3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2H5K-BUMS0

Police abolitionists aren't trying to fix anything?

You've either not engaged in any discussion or reading of police abolitionists, or maybe you're against any changes to current system that has seen police kill more people in the US last year than any other year...and who 99.9999% of the time never face charges or discipline.

police abolish calls for replacing the armed badged gangs with networks of social workers, mental health workers...taking the trillions of dollars from police forces and using that to programs to improve communities and provide basic standards of living, housing, education and health services to people...all things this country has the resources for, we just chose not to because police, prisons, courts, keeping people in debt is good for business.

Yeah, Abolish the Police is on that Fuck the Police energy....because FUCK THE POLICE.

They serve and protect capital and property.
Not people. Never people.


Think of some of the recent mass-shootings here in the US....who stepped up and apprehended the shooters, who were the first to come to the aid of others??? Chinese New Year, Club Q, Sunset Park Subway, etc...

it was the PEOPLE.
NOT the police.

Uvalde School shooting? How many cops were surrounded the school for hours while kids were being killed?

We need more of them?
or more training?

people who still advocate for police and/or milquetoast 'reform' are the ones I see as cynical and not serious about fixing the problem.

>Police abolitionists aren't trying to fix anything?
>
>You've either not engaged in any discussion or reading of
>police abolitionists, or maybe you're against any changes to
>current system that has seen police kill more people in the US
>last year than any other year...and who 99.9999% of the time
>never face charges or discipline.
>
>police abolish calls for replacing the armed badged gangs with
>networks of social workers, mental health workers...taking
>the trillions of dollars from police forces and using that to
>programs to improve communities and provide basic standards of
>living, housing, education and health services to people...all
>things this country has the resources for, we just chose not
>to because police, prisons, courts, keeping people in debt is
>good for business.
>
>Yeah, Abolish the Police is on that Fuck the Police
>energy....because FUCK THE POLICE.
>
>They serve and protect capital and property.
>Not people. Never people.
>
>
>Think of some of the recent mass-shootings here in the
>US....who stepped up and apprehended the shooters, who were
>the first to come to the aid of others??? Chinese New Year,
>Club Q, Sunset Park Subway, etc...
>
>it was the PEOPLE.
>NOT the police.
>
>Uvalde School shooting? How many cops were surrounded the
>school for hours while kids were being killed?
>
>We need more of them?
>or more training?
>
>people who still advocate for police and/or milquetoast
>'reform' are the ones I see as cynical and not serious about
>fixing the problem.
>
>
>
>
>
>

----------------------------------------

"Fuck aliens." © WarriorPoet415

All of this! Thank you!

or what this country needs is communism. Its fantastical day dreaming.

And then you do the unserious thing of saying either you are "against any changes to current system" if you aren't with Abolish the police. Only the unserious think it's an either-or conversation.


And it's an unserious position to think it's a zero-sum either/or of deciding between police and social services. Why not just advocate for more money for social services (a popular position)? Why marry a popular position with a deeply unpopular position?


BTW you folks have had your great stop policing experiment which happened in Baltimore in the aftermath of Freddy Gray's death. Police stopped policing, Baltimore became the most deadliest large city in the US.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2018/07/12/baltimore-police-not-noticing-crime-after-freddie-gray-wave-killings-followed/744741002/


And this is the part that the Abolitionist never have an answer for:
If calling the police was useless in Chinese New Year, Club Q, Sunset Park Subway, etc. What exactly was supposed to be the right response? If we not calling the police, who were we supposed to call?







>Police abolitionists aren't trying to fix anything?
>
>You've either not engaged in any discussion or reading of
>police abolitionists, or maybe you're against any changes to
>current system that has seen police kill more people in the US
>last year than any other year...and who 99.9999% of the time
>never face charges or discipline.
>
>police abolish calls for replacing the armed badged gangs with
>networks of social workers, mental health workers...taking
>the trillions of dollars from police forces and using that to
>programs to improve communities and provide basic standards of
>living, housing, education and health services to people...all
>things this country has the resources for, we just chose not
>to because police, prisons, courts, keeping people in debt is
>good for business.
>
>Yeah, Abolish the Police is on that Fuck the Police
>energy....because FUCK THE POLICE.
>
>They serve and protect capital and property.
>Not people. Never people.
>
>
>Think of some of the recent mass-shootings here in the
>US....who stepped up and apprehended the shooters, who were
>the first to come to the aid of others??? Chinese New Year,
>Club Q, Sunset Park Subway, etc...
>
>it was the PEOPLE.
>NOT the police.
>
>Uvalde School shooting? How many cops were surrounded the
>school for hours while kids were being killed?
>
>We need more of them?
>or more training?
>
>people who still advocate for police and/or milquetoast
>'reform' are the ones I see as cynical and not serious about
>fixing the problem.
>
>
>
>
>
>


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

What would be your system to deal with we currently call "crime"?

Everything I see are abstract ideas full of words words words that don't say much of anything (I looked at lots of articles in Damali's links).

When faced with the questions most skeptics minds like "what about rapists?", there's just deflection. "What about rape??? There's still rape now"

I wish I could see a real potential solution that is filled with abstraction and sociology buzzwords.



"What about rape? The current approach hasn’t ended it. In fact most rapists never see the inside of a courtroom. Two-thirds of people who experience sexual violence never report it to anyone. Those who file police reports are often dissatisfied with the response. Additionally, police officers themselves commit sexual assault alarmingly often. A study in 2010 found that sexual misconduct was the second most frequently reported form of police misconduct. In 2015, The Buffalo News found that an officer was caught for sexual misconduct every five days."

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/12/opinion/sunday/floyd-abolish-defund-police.html

_______________________________________

couple of books that are worth checking that go into the topic you raised:

Becoming Abolishonists by Derecka Purnell
https://www.versobooks.com/books/3925-becoming-abolitionists

End of Policing by Alex Vitale
https://www.versobooks.com/books/2426-the-end-of-policing


this is a great interview with Derecka Purnell on The Daily Show last year:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vUtpuU4mzOM


on the topic of rape, less than 1% of rape cases leads to felony convictions...Police aren't preventing rape and they're barely holding those accountable. So pretending we care about rape without police is a bit ironic since we don't really care about rape WITH police around now.


Also police departments have some of the highest rates of domestic abusers than any other industry/field...so it's kind of wild to think that we think a rapist or abuser would be the best ones to call to help rape victims.

On the question of what to do with the issue of crime (rape being just one of many types of crime), the response is "well, the current system doesn't do any good"

Ok...so what is the ideal response to crime?

Maybe these books get into that??


>on the topic of rape, less than 1% of rape cases leads to
>felony convictions...Police aren't preventing rape and they're
>barely holding those accountable. So pretending we care about
>rape without police is a bit ironic since we don't really care
>about rape WITH police around now.
>
>
>Also police departments have some of the highest rates of
>domestic abusers than any other industry/field...so it's kind
>of wild to think that we think a rapist or abuser would be the
>best ones to call to help rape victims.

_______________________________________

Yes, the books definitely get into it...the video hits on some of the topic, but only so much you can cover in a 8 minute segment...

I just find it a bit disingenuous that there's a concern for rape victims when it comes to discrediting abolition, yet we don't show much concern for them now when 99% of rapes don't face any consequences with the current model.

If the current system was serious about preventing, investigating and prosecuting rapes, then maybe this would be a topic-worthy discussion...I see it more as a deflection to larger issues.

Unless we enter a dystopian panopticon that effectively prevents “pre crime”, crime, crime prevention and punishment are givens.

Crime prevention and punishment require armed people to carry out, because serious crime doers don’t want to yield and pay heavy consequences, and human nature doesn’t provide enough martyrs to do all the jobs as unarmed sitting ducks. So armed people patrolling for and facilitating the punishment of crimes are givens.

A, we thought, unnecessary corollary question to this that “abolitionists” nevertheless ask is:
will we have some minimal level of democratic control of this inevitable armed prevention and punishment force (ie having a state entity universally called “police” do this job).

By pretending that we can “just say no” to armed crime prevention, “abolitionists” avoid thinking about the much worse situation of entirely privatized, non-proactively supervised mercenary crimestopping their policies would result in.

Abolitionists are just (extra) naive libertarians.

--

Woe unto him who in this world courts not dishonor.

I really don't know what "abolitionists" you're reading or listening to....but the arguments being made to discredit them show a deep lack of the issues they are speaking on....and I had to laugh reading that this movement is from 'naive libertarians', considering the movement is about community care and solidarity...which is something that is so far from libertarian values.

sounds like you get more of your knowledge of policing from movies & tv.

Are the ones who use the most buzzwords per paragraph.

--

Woe unto him who in this world courts not dishonor.

'Copaganda' is a term to incapsulate how Police and media work in tandum to spread their narrative..to convince society that people are bad and evil, and that police are here to 'protect and serve' the people and stop crime....as we can see in this thread, it works quite well.

I'll add that the only people that mention police and 'crime prevention' in the same sentence are either cops, or those doing the PR for them.

ACTUAL crime prevention would be addressing the root issues of majority of crimes...systemic poverty, lack of basic human necessities such as housing and healthcare....the kind of things that are always first on the budget chopping block so that we can 'Fund fund fund the police'

excuse me for using too many buzzwords, officer...better to call that out than any of the actual issues I raised.

Don't shoot!

Extremely false dichotomy between what people who arrest criminals do and what community services do as though only one can prevent crime. Both obviously do

But the former are extremely important and if your side ever effectively won out to outlaw them, they wouldn’t cease to exist, they would just become private and less accountable.

Thankfully your side will not win because abolishing police is recognized as a fringe and bad idea by every demographic group, not just my own group of white police officers. Over and out for now good buddy 👮‍♀️

--

Woe unto him who in this world courts not dishonor.

>But the former are extremely important and if your side ever
>effectively won out to outlaw them, they wouldn’t cease to
>exist, they would just become private and less accountable.

We're fortunate there's so much accountability now.

Jeezus fucking christ dude.

----------------------------------------

"Fuck aliens." © WarriorPoet415

wHaT wOuLd HaPpEn To AlL tHiS aCcOuNtAbIlItY, Brew !?!?!?!?!?!?!?????!!?!???!??!??!?!

once again. saying it much better than I could have. I hope people read and actually take in what you're saying instead of being so quick to respond.

absolutely no reason (other than folks being too scurred to try to push) why these blocks grants can't have as conditions, for example, "no killology training allowed" <= that would be a huge step, especially since the current POTUS keeps saying we need more training for leo...okay, come up with a commission, analyze the current training leo get (and discover who horrible it is), and require them (the states) to ensure that training for leo comes off an approved list of training programs as a condition of getting grants.

but we've been asking for police reform since the 60's (68 kerner commission conducted a formalized study of policing in Black hoods, among other things).

Almost 60 years we've been trying to fix this thing. Hell, and that's not getting into whether or not policing in its current form fulfills its supposed function in making our communities safe with clearance rates in the 30/40/50% range (and that's iff you believe stats from folks that lie on things like police reports all the damn time)

Time to replace them.

~~~~~~~~
A bad Samaritan averaging above average men (c) DOOM

"Once things really get going you can expect steady defections from military and police...

Cannot post the link but I know the name of the manual.

Ethnic Cleansing Operations FM_6-2003

It's hard to do much to stop this when politicians refuse adequately punish them like Democrats and Republicans. Certain actions work so research history.....

No empathy for white misery (c) BDot

"root for everybody black haters say that's crazy, wow..."

https://www.jrbooksonline.com/PDF_Books_added2009-2/FM_6-2003_Ethnic_Cleansing_Operations.pdf

________________________________________
"Take the surprise out your voice Shaq."-The REAL CP3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2H5K-BUMS0

If insurers paid out $10 million for every instance of police brutality in the black community it would stop within four years.

That manual is proof that white nationalists are trained to commit genocide on a mass level and infiltrated police departments. Politicians are ignoring this and must push for police departments to be cleansed of white nationalists. Google atomwaffen and that leaked list of Oath Keeper membership. Look at the breakdown by occupation...

That manual is a training aide for you to prepare yourself for their tactics. Do not implement any content inside of it but pay attention to how they accomplish their goals. Go read the logistical training pages from the 180 page Peyton Grendon manifesto to further prepare yourself. They're outlining what they'll do and how to accomplish it.

No empathy for white misery (c) BDot

"root for everybody black haters say that's crazy, wow..."

>If insurers paid out $10 million for every instance of police
>brutality in the black community it would stop within four
>years.
>
>That manual is proof that white nationalists are trained to
>commit genocide on a mass level and infiltrated police
>departments. Politicians are ignoring this and must push for
>police departments to be cleansed of white nationalists.

that all sounds great but how realistic is that?

________________________________________
"Take the surprise out your voice Shaq."-The REAL CP3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2H5K-BUMS0

great book by Alex Vitale...I def recommend it, and the e-book is FREE!!!

https://www.versobooks.com/books/3906-the-end-of-policing

I'm disappointed at folks on here, who I generally place a few cuts above mainstream social media, in having no nuance or thoughtful analysis.

However, because copaganda is actually a real thing that folks aren't even aware of, it is extremely difficult for many to imagine a society without police. Think about how normalized it has become. The majority of shows on network TV are related to law enforcement. And one of the longest running and most ubiquitous properties is Law and Order. And the majority of their depictions are of them generally doing the right thing. We first got camera footage of them doing the wrong thing in 1992, that went on hiatus for a minute until the 2010s, and even though we've gotten much more, it is still heavily outflanked by movies and TV.

I JUST JUST JUST came back from lunch and heard an armed guard (government building) talking about how they witness a homeless person with a knife yelling at a cop who only deployed pepper spray and how a gun needed to be drawn on the knife wielder. same guard, former cop, also referenced "friendly policing shit" and "cameras....you don't need a camera if you're doing the right thing." and talked to me and my friend FOR A MINUTE. and was Black.

I honestly don't believe the majority of people really appreciate the culture of policing, to think that reform (which again, has NOT happened) is all that's needed. American policing, rooted in white supremacy and chattel slavery, has a primary function of protecting property and the interests of those who own it. It was also a portal through which many European immigrants were able to adorn themselves in whiteness.

The Supreme Court has given police a tremendous amount of legal authority and discretion, while at the same time, absolving them of legal responsibility for actually saving and protecting citizens.

PUBLIC SAFETY is a concept written on buildings and vehicles, not one that actually exists in an institution. That's what we should aspire to.

Working towards abolition as the end goal would get us much closer to where we need to be. Abolitionists push for reform measures because they pragmatically realize that if it was as simple as waving a wand, it would be done already.

I say all that to establish a context under which the original topic can be explored.

That training bullshit ain't it. When you have such broad power, the lack of regulations, oversight, and scrutiny, make corruption inevitable.

Far from exhaustive, but a list of measures that need to immediately be taken:

- Qualified immunity needs to be ended. This was never a law, btw. The Supreme Court created that standard.

- Police unions need to be disbanded. They mainly exist to shield police from liability and responsibility. I was talking to a white former chief of police who said how problematic they were, getting in his way if he was trying to address issues. Even if unions don't have a CBA with a municipality, they have a great deal of influence on the budget, and in major leadership decisions.

- Civil suits need to be paid out of police pensions and budgets, not taxpayer funds.

- Civilian review panels need to exist in every place there are police, with less than 10% representation being law enforcement, and at least 75% people who were on the receiving end of police misconduct. They need broad investigative authority and should have a meaningful role in decision making when it comes to discipline.

- Police need to be removed from traffic stops.

- No knock warrants should be ended.

- Medical examiner's offices should be independent of any police authority or chain of command.

- Prosecution of police should come from an independent federal office with no relationship to the local police office, and appoint lawyers who have brought suit against police.

- Any officer found to have used excessive force, if not fired, is removed from the streets immediately and no longer allowed to interact with the public.

I can't tell if abolishment is still the end goal if these reforms were properly put in place.


>Far from exhaustive, but a list of measures that need to
>immediately be taken:
>
>- Qualified immunity needs to be ended. This was never a law,
>btw. The Supreme Court created that standard.
>
>- Police unions need to be disbanded. They mainly exist to
>shield police from liability and responsibility. I was
>talking to a white former chief of police who said how
>problematic they were, getting in his way if he was trying to
>address issues. Even if unions don't have a CBA with a
>municipality, they have a great deal of influence on the
>budget, and in major leadership decisions.
>
>- Civil suits need to be paid out of police pensions and
>budgets, not taxpayer funds.
>
>- Civilian review panels need to exist in every place there
>are police, with less than 10% representation being law
>enforcement, and at least 75% people who were on the receiving
>end of police misconduct. They need broad investigative
>authority and should have a meaningful role in decision making
>when it comes to discipline.
>
>- Police need to be removed from traffic stops.
>
>- No knock warrants should be ended.
>
>- Medical examiner's offices should be independent of any
>police authority or chain of command.
>
>- Prosecution of police should come from an independent
>federal office with no relationship to the local police
>office, and appoint lawyers who have brought suit against
>police.
>
>- Any officer found to have used excessive force, if not
>fired, is removed from the streets immediately and no longer
>allowed to interact with the public.

_______________________________________

>I can't tell if abolishment is still the end goal if these
>reforms were properly put in place.
>
>
>>Far from exhaustive, but a list of measures that need to
>>immediately be taken:
>>
>>- Qualified immunity needs to be ended. This was never a
>law,
>>btw. The Supreme Court created that standard.
>>
>>- Police unions need to be disbanded. They mainly exist to
>>shield police from liability and responsibility. I was
>>talking to a white former chief of police who said how
>>problematic they were, getting in his way if he was trying
>to
>>address issues. Even if unions don't have a CBA with a
>>municipality, they have a great deal of influence on the
>>budget, and in major leadership decisions.
>>
>>- Civil suits need to be paid out of police pensions and
>>budgets, not taxpayer funds.
>>
>>- Civilian review panels need to exist in every place there
>>are police, with less than 10% representation being law
>>enforcement, and at least 75% people who were on the
>receiving
>>end of police misconduct. They need broad investigative
>>authority and should have a meaningful role in decision
>making
>>when it comes to discipline.
>>
>>- Police need to be removed from traffic stops.
>>
>>- No knock warrants should be ended.
>>
>>- Medical examiner's offices should be independent of any
>>police authority or chain of command.
>>
>>- Prosecution of police should come from an independent
>>federal office with no relationship to the local police
>>office, and appoint lawyers who have brought suit against
>>police.
>>
>>- Any officer found to have used excessive force, if not
>>fired, is removed from the streets immediately and no longer
>>allowed to interact with the public.
>

I wanna be sure I understand before I reply

otherwise I wouldn't have asked.

Do I think change is possible? Yes, of course.

However, after staring at the hundredth thin blue line bumper sticker over the last few years, I was hit with the realization that police as a group view themselves in an adversarial position against EVERYONE.
Actually, it wasnt just a thin blue line sticker that brought the point home for me, it was that AND a sticker that said "I SUPPORT AMERICA'S POLICE" and I thought "who the fuck doesnt...how is that even a question...why do you need to even say..?!?!"


Anti-blackness is the lowest hanging fruit (fuck, forgive the horrible euphemism) and the easiest thing to get away with - but in general, especially after I've consumed a good amount of "Audit the Audit" content on youtube, I've learned that the police are just wishing a motherfucker would, and the motherfucker is, in this case, all of the world.

***********************************************************
https://soundcloud.com/swageyph/yph-die-with-me

in the US. (reparations is a strong START in the right direction)
Which would completely remake the US.
Anything short of that won't work.