Honestly

It's better for you + the environment, both yours and the grapes'

TGIF my peoples

>
>Honestly
>
>It's better for you + the environment, both yours and the
>grapes'
>
>TGIF my peoples
>
>

The man has a point tho!

Thought wine was just grape juice fermented with yeast. Seems simple-enough not to mess with the recipe.

as well as added sugars to spike the alcohol %, they even add color to it sometimes and a bunch of sulfites to control it. Wines are at base level a live product, but all life is stifled by the conventional winemakers looking to have a more predictable product

Natural winemaking approaches the vineyard and the grapes with a philosophy of «no intervention». You basically leave nature to do its thing, you don't water the crop, you don't use pesticides in the vineyard, you don't add anything in the cellar, you leave the grapes to ferment using their own natural (inherent) yeasts (that are present everywhere). This breeds wines that are alive, lively, unpredictable and very much reflect the terroir and the grapes as well as the winemaker's true skill and personality in a way a manipulated wine doesn't

The EU allows for a conventional bottle of wine to have more additives than a bottle of diet soda. Its a LOT going on in these bottles... and the winemakers aren't required to reveal the wine's contents. They'll even use animal proteins to clarify or filter the wines. Its no bueno

Natural wine = no additives, no pesticides, no nothing. MAYBE a miniscule amount of sulphur, but that's it.

the third most pretentious to be concerned about...

It might as well be just grapes and not chemicals

Its important to note that «organic» wine doesn’t mean shit, organic is a certification that still allows for a ton of pesticides and additives and junk

or i gotta go wayyy across town

>or i gotta go wayyy across town
>
>
I am a beginner/halfass wine connoisseur and have either not found natural wine or have not been able to identify it. Can I get this from total Wine? Let’s get down to brass tacks about wineries/labels instead of debating/admonition.

I'm positive you should be able to order some online

I did some quick searches of random producers on Total Wine just now, and they've definitely got some stuff there.

Never tried Total Wine but depending on where you live they've got natural wines there. It just isn't categorized as such, again «natural wine» is a term that adheres to a philosophy and not a certification. Vague, I know. But it is what it is. Basically all these people are just saying f*** additives and chemicals and yielding 150.000 bottles of predictable product that manipulates the terroir and grapes into something its not, just for the sake of money

These people are not making bank at all, but they make damn good wine. And yes there's definitely a bunch of natural minded producers on Total Wine, if you know what to search for (and what you like)

>
>I'm positive you should be able to order some online
>
>I did some quick searches of random producers on Total Wine
>just now, and they've definitely got some stuff there.
>
>Never tried Total Wine but depending on where you live they've
>got natural wines there. It just isn't categorized as such,
>again «natural wine» is a term that adheres to a philosophy
>and not a certification. Vague, I know. But it is what it is.
>Basically all these people are just saying f*** additives and
>chemicals and yielding 150.000 bottles of predictable product
>that manipulates the terroir and grapes into something its
>not, just for the sake of money
>
>These people are not making bank at all, but they make damn
>good wine. And yes there's definitely a bunch of natural
>minded producers on Total Wine, if you know what to search for
>(and what you like)

in the US there are certain stores that focus more or less on natural wine (at least in the bigger cities), so maybe you live close by one of these shops or no. Your corner store probably won't have it, but if fate would have it you might have one of these stores close by?

There are also a bunch of alternatives for ordering natural wine online, again depending on your geography.

So yes and no - your potential trek depends on your whereabouts ofc. It might not be at your corner shop like that, but depending on where you live - maybe. And it should at least be available to cop either online or at a store in your city.

I don't know if this is obvious or not (its not to me), but most of the world's best natural wine somehow ends up in Japan. They're hoarding all the best stuff

It's a bar but they specialize in natural wine. Pretty good spot.

---

But hell, what do I know?

I've never been a wine drinker -- hardly any white, and two or three bottles of random $15 Cotes du Rhone per year -- but have really started getting into more focused selections after I found a quality local wine store.

my problem so far is that natural wine is still niche in my area, while also being all-encompassing. anybody from anywhere can be making natural wine, so you really need to know exactly what you want or have expert guidance on the spot*.

ones I've tried in the last month:

Las Jaras Glou Glou 2019 (Red blend, California)
https://lasjaraswines.com/products/glou-glou

-- this shit is delicious. a little background carbonation with lots of fruit.

Charly Thevenet Grain and Granite 2017 (Regnie, Beaujolais)
https://winelibrary.com/wines/gamay/2017-charly-thevenet-regnie-grain-granit-117782

-- so this is why I need help finding natural wines. nothing about this wine is labeled natural, but I guess if you know anything about French wines his dad was one of the OGs of reviving the natural wine movement. I just asked to try a good Beaujolais cru and was recommended this one. even though it was the most I've ever paid for a bottle ($37! I've spent high amounts on whisky but never wine), it still impressed the hell out of me.

Cirelli La Collina Biologica Cerasuolo d'Abruzzo (Montepulciano, Italy)
https://caravino.net/2019/06/23/cirelli-la-collina-biologica-cerasuolo-dabruzzo-doc-2017/

-- this was in the same section as several pet-nat wines so I added it. it was fine, but I haven't tried a lot of Italian wines that I've loved. this is where it gets confusing for me, because it's labeled organic but may not necessarily be made in the natural style.

*I don't think Total Wine is that helpful, at least not the one nearest me. every time I ask for any suggestions and give them a price point and my bottle preferences, I get some off-the-wall rec that just conveniently has a 12-case display on the main floor.

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Whats the name of your local shop? You can DM if you want, but if Las Jaras is a / your local shop it looks like they've got some good stuff for sure

I agree with you on the Italian wines, even though I have a lot of Italian favorites, esp Italian more traditional reds (apart from a couple of very classic wines) aren't always hittin. But there's lots of good Italian wines to me, esp white, pet nats / frizzante, orange wines & lighter reds

The only one I've had before out of the wines you posted is the Cirelli La Collina, and I agree they aren't the most exciting wines. I do think they pass as natural though, or at least *close enough* lol. The second one (Thevenet) I don't know, but gamays almost always hit if they're grown and made naturally

The (problematic / confusing) thing is, «natural» isn't a category or a certification, whereas organic and biodynamic are certifications; And out of the two, biodynamic is the closest to a «natural» wine. An organic certification still allows for a bunch of stuff that a more natural focused producer would never do.

Natural wine is, amongst other things:

- no added yeast, no added sugar, nothing added in the cellar except for (maybe) a tiny, tiny dose of sulfur (WAY less than in any conventional wine). And often no sulfur at all
- No pesticides in the vineyard
- No watering in the vineyard

Basically no human interference; You plant the grapes and let nature run its course. No interference in the vineyard, and no / low interference in the cellar

If you're interested, there's a good book on the subject by Isabelle Legeron called «Natural Wine»

https://www.amazon.com/Natural-Wine-introduction-biodynamic-naturally/dp/1782494839/ref=sr_1_2?crid=3C7OIWV0U4Y4L&dchild=1&keywords=isabelle+legeron+natural&qid=1603838777&sprefix=isabelle+lege%2Caps%2C283&sr=8-2


Just realized this all sucks as an answer to your question lol. Some of my favorite labels:

Ganevat, Robinot (reds not whites), Tissot, Lammidia, Domaine des Cavarodes, No Control, Jean Yves Peron, Matassa (here & there), and Radikon for sure




>I've never been a wine drinker -- hardly any white, and two
>or three bottles of random $15 Cotes du Rhone per year -- but
>have really started getting into more focused selections after
>I found a quality local wine store.
>
>my problem so far is that natural wine is still niche in my
>area, while also being all-encompassing. anybody from anywhere
>can be making natural wine, so you really need to know exactly
>what you want or have expert guidance on the spot*.
>
>ones I've tried in the last month:
>
>Las Jaras Glou Glou 2019 (Red blend, California)
>https://lasjaraswines.com/products/glou-glou
>
>-- this shit is delicious. a little background carbonation
>with lots of fruit.
>
>Charly Thevenet Grain and Granite 2017 (Regnie, Beaujolais)
>https://winelibrary.com/wines/gamay/2017-charly-thevenet-regnie-grain-granit-117782
>
>-- so this is why I need help finding natural wines. nothing
>about this wine is labeled natural, but I guess if you know
>anything about French wines his dad was one of the OGs of
>reviving the natural wine movement. I just asked to try a good
>Beaujolais cru and was recommended this one. even though it
>was the most I've ever paid for a bottle ($37! I've spent high
>amounts on whisky but never wine), it still impressed the hell
>out of me.
>
>Cirelli La Collina Biologica Cerasuolo d'Abruzzo
>(Montepulciano, Italy)
>https://caravino.net/2019/06/23/cirelli-la-collina-biologica-cerasuolo-dabruzzo-doc-2017/
>
>-- this was in the same section as several pet-nat wines so I
>added it. it was fine, but I haven't tried a lot of Italian
>wines that I've loved. this is where it gets confusing for me,
>because it's labeled organic but may not necessarily be made
>in the natural style.
>
>*I don't think Total Wine is that helpful, at least not the
>one nearest me. every time I ask for any suggestions and give
>them a price point and my bottle preferences, I get some
>off-the-wall rec that just conveniently has a 12-case display
>on the main floor.

https://www.pogoswine.com/

seems like they cater to the elites in super rich Dallas (it's not my neighborhood, but only a 15 minute drive) but the staff has been super approachable and helpful on my first two visits.

thanks for the book rec. I'll add it to my list.

>Ganevat, Robinot (reds not whites), Tissot, Lammidia, Domaine
>des Cavarodes, No Control, Jean Yves Peron, Matassa (here &
>there), and Radikon for sure

cool. several of these hit on Pogo's while doing a search. I'll ask about them next trip.

also, getting into natural wine has started me on my wine-knowledge 101 journey. I'm going through all the France starter kit wines I can afford (that was my first Beaujolais Cru, first Sancerre, Chateauneuf du Pape -- which was very good but IMO not worth the heavy domaine price compared to Cotes du Rhone).

I am not into buying wines to age (although I know natural wines can age, it's not their main selling point) so these immediately drinkable ones are perfect.

--------

Bunch of good wines on here, but damn the pricing is kinda crazy. I’d easily reccommend this for a nice & juicy Chardonnay but holy shit $65

https://www.pogoswine.com/wines/Anne-et-Jean-Francois-Ganevat-Vin-de-France-Kopin-Blanc-w2013358a7

I’ll browse some more, but this shop definitely has some jams. I can see they’re mostly categorized under «organic wines» even though that is a misleading and sort of erroneous term

since it's in one of the most expensive areas of Dallas.

but this is a good starting point for what else I can look for.

--------

Ganevat has some very nice stuff and Pogo’s seemed to have a couple of different cuvées, also I saw at least one bottle of Tissot (a red, haven’t tried it, think it was $35 or so), Occhipinti is made by Arianna Occhipinti (she’s based on Sicily), maybe some of her wines could be worth checking out - depending on what wines you like.

I did not see TONS on here, but obv there’s bunch of stuff I haven’t tried as I’m a rookie at best. But there are some nice (a bit overpriced) bottles on here that should hold you down for a couple of months

If you’d be up for ordering wines online from California later I’d suggest checking out Psychic Wines.... They’ve some really good wines

I've looked at buying online but it is hot as fuck 8 months a year in Texas and I don't want a bunch of spoiled wine on my doorstep

also I have never bought enough wine in a year to necessitate a case (for cheap shipping), but maybe once I try more stuff I will get there

I can now see how wine becomes an $ addiction though

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Out of any leisurely activity or hobby I have, drinking wine is by far the one that drains the bank account the fastest lol

Enjoy, hope you find some fire ones



>I've looked at buying online but it is hot as fuck 8 months a
>year in Texas and I don't want a bunch of spoiled wine on my
>doorstep
>
>also I have never bought enough wine in a year to necessitate
>a case (for cheap shipping), but maybe once I try more stuff I
>will get there
>
>I can now see how wine becomes an $ addiction though

________________________________
There are dozens of us! Dozens!

It softens the tannins, ages the aromas. You can age your wines five years in ten seconds, truly.

-------------------------------

A lot of you players ain't okay.

We would have been better off with an okaycivics board instead of an okayactivist board

>It softens the tannins, ages the aromas. You can age your
>wines five years in ten seconds, truly.

That show will eventually become my 2nd or 3rd favorite of all time

Sounds familiar but I can't place it.

---

But hell, what do I know?

Feels kinda blasphemous throwing a 50 year old wine in the Nutribullet lol

Benoit Courault Gilbourg 2017 (Anjou, France)
https://www.chambersstwines.com/Articles/12350/beni-and-the-jets-the-wines-of-benoit-courault

-- never remember having Chenin Blanc. this was good; I prefer Chablis (who doesn't) if I'm drinking French whites but cool little producer.

Pierre Cotton 100% Cotton Brouilly 2018 (Beaujolais, France)
https://www.coeurwineco.com/producer/pierre-cotton/

-- after having that Thevenet Regnie, I think cru Beaujolais might be one of my favorite wines. fruity, but not sweet or dry and with interesting background flavors. this was highly recommended at my local wine shop and I was *really* excited to try it. opened it for Thanksgiving and...it was good. I think my expectations were a little high (the aroma was disappointing). very good instead of "blow me away" ridiculous.

Vignobles Bulliat Beaujolais Nouveau 2020 (Beaujolais, France)
https://frenchlibation.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/BS-Bulliat-Beaujolais-Nouveau-Bouquet-Final-Red.png

-- never had Beaujolais Nouveau, so why not try a bottle of the natural version. solid enough; tasted like what it is (a just harvested Beaujolais). didn't get much of the infamous bubblegum or banana flavor of bojo nouveau.


also. I just released that most European wine has a 25% tariff in the US right now. TF!? I'm biased towards French wine -- the first "whoa, that's interesting" wine I had was a bottle of $12 Famille Perrin over a decade ago -- but I'm definitely looking at those California bottles closer now.

--------

I've never immediately become a fanboy of a wine producer like I did the first time I tasted Cul Otte.


~~~~~~~~~
"This is the streets, and I am the trap." � Jay Bilas
http://www.popmatters.com/pm/archive/contributor/517
Hip Hop Handbook: http://tinyurl.com/ll4kzz

Like most of the 'organic' and 'natural' food movement.

There's no significant evidence that organic foods have any health benefits (and no plausible reason why they would). Environmental impacts are complicated to assess, but at least as far as the most important environmental issue of our time -- climate -- organic foods are typically more harmful due to reduced shelf life, yields, and added labor for cultivation.

"natural" wine-making results in a much different product than wines I've had before. I'd equate it to the craft beer explosion a decade ago -- nobody would put a gose or sour on the domestic market before then, just like nobody would sell a pet-nat or orange wine before natural wine became trendy.

chemophobia? I eat MSG all the time, but natural wineries who don't use Round-Up on all their vines sounds like a good thing to me.

climate change? yeah, it's a specious argument that drinking more natural wine is helping the environment -- I love the idea that my 100% gamay grapes were hand-picked by the son of a wine-maker who started making natural wine 30 years ago, no sugars were added and it was bottled unfiltered...but all that eco-benefit was probably lost on the plane ride from France to Texas.

so fermented grape juice is not saving the world. nor should it have to. Exxon did more damage yesterday than all the wine drinkers in the world.

--------

That's chemophobia too.

https://slate.com/technology/2019/10/glyphosate-does-not-cause-cancer-saves-native-plants.amp

To be clear, I'm not trying to accuse you, or anyone personally, of being chemophobic. Just pointing out that it's a baked-in aspect of decadent modern american culture. And one that marketers exploit.

To the extent that it's about coming up with more interesting flavors, I'm all for it.

I'm just recoiling against the appeal to nature in the OP. Unnatural things don't exist.

Splitting hairs up in dissss

Whatever you wanna call it, the producers who allow these processes to happen - naturally - would disagree. They don't see anything natural about tampering with a process nature left to its own devices handles perfectly on its own, with industrial yeasts, coloring, processed sugars, etc

But this is centuries old (agriculture) speak, nothing to do with slate articles and your definition of the word(s)

More interesting flavors? *crine*

Marketing? Lmao

Tell that to the 70 year old dude in côtes du nowhere who inherited his farm 45 years ago and produces 1500 bottles in a good year. This approach has all to do with reverence for nature and very little to do with your definition and projection of cool words from the internet lol

Specifically, your misplaced reverence for nature.

If by 'nature' you mean 'how things worked before humans learned to do things,' then you're thinking about a time when people had a life expectancy of about 40 and typically lived in excruciating pain up until that point.

I'd happily try some natural wine if it's offered to me. Might be very tasty.

But right now I'm much more excited about a deeply 'unnatural' vaccine against (natural) coronavirus infection.

Even though it may be perceived as such among certain people in certain parts of the US, this has more to do with letting nature do its thing and not tempering with the process.

Picked grapes left on their own will produce alcohol.

We're not talking about «organic», organic wine is a misconstrued term.

Natural wine production is referring to producers who does not temper with the soil, grapes or mess around in the cellar.

They make wine *naturally*, as in they let the sun shine and rain fall, and they pick the grapes and let them ferment. Nothing added to, and nothing taken from. Like it was done for centuries before industrial yeasts and coloring and sugar started popping up more and more in conventional wine

Its superior in terms of getting an unadulterated presentation of the grape and soil in question. It arguably tastes way better (different) and is less made up

good California red blend, mostly grenache (which I love; love Cotes du Rhone). definitely had that "obviously natural" feel and taste.

$24 at Central Market. seen it at Whole Foods and my local wine shop too.

--------

chilled red with a little fizz to it, best for for pizza and pasta. it reminded me of the first chilled red wine I fell in love with, an Italian gragnano at 2 Amys in DC. usually chilled red wines are super sweet, but this was dry, acidic and gluggable.

coincidently enough, the owner of 2 Amys had contacted them a while ago to grow him this kind of wine.

$25 at Whole Foods.

--------

Pretty good at the price, plus always interesting to try intentionally chilled wines (Las Jaras Glou Glou got me started/curious last summer)


Sometimes it ain't so bad to work the dead Sunday shift at the wine shop, y'know?


~~~~~~~~~
"This is the streets, and I am the trap." � Jay Bilas
http://www.popmatters.com/pm/archive/contributor/517
Hip Hop Handbook: http://tinyurl.com/ll4kzz

I can always go to France when I am feeling more serious (not that all French wine is serious, but it's definitely different).

and Las Jaras is overall my shit too.

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Beaujolais is my shit, as mentioned above. I've never had anything from the Morgon region, nor from Foillard (OG natural winemaker since the '80s). this was banging, with a ton of..."texture"(?) and fruit.

from what I understand these bottles were 30% cheaper a decade ago, but have really caught on as of late due to dopes like me.

$50 at the local wine shop.

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And I don't even know if it would be allowed considering that «natural» wine isn't an official / recognized certification.

And also, as the popularity of «unadultered» wines have skyrocketed in the past 3-5 years, there are a lot of conventional producers jumping on the bandwagon, so if anyone would be putting stickers claiming «natural wine!» on the bottle, it would be them.

«Organic» is a certification, but does not mean the wine is «natural».

The official certification that gets the closest to being natural, is Biodynamic. Biodynamic wines will sometimes have their own section at a shop or at least you'll see it in the product description.

The best way forward is knowing what producers to check for, following someone with knowledge of these wines on IG, or ask someone you know who know!

is you have to know a lot about wine to be able to tell what you are picking

my best recommendation is find a local wine shop or even fancy grocery store and tell them you want to try natural wines and what your tastes are (red, white, sweeter, dry, acidic, heavy, light, fruity).

if you find stuff you like, you sort of build up a repertoire of knowledge that you can use to pick your own bottles for the future. like, I had never heard of Kermit Lynch before last fall. now I will check for almost anything he's imported, because all the Kermit Lynch wine I've tried fits my tastes.

--------

In terms of scope and dedication to "natural"


Zev Rovine is the label I look for everywhere I go, though


~~~~~~~~~
"This is the streets, and I am the trap." � Jay Bilas
http://www.popmatters.com/pm/archive/contributor/517
Hip Hop Handbook: http://tinyurl.com/ll4kzz

If you like Kermit Lynch you should check out his book «Adventures on the wine route»!

There is a new wine club that focuses on natural wines and also focuses on increasing diversity in the wine industry called Natural Action Wine Club. I received the first shipment and have liked the wines that I've tasted thus far.
The site is naturalaction.org

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All the wineries in this shipment were from Southern California. One was a malbec from Solminer (I heard about the wine club because I used to be a member of Solminer). A gamay blend from Scar of the Sea winery. Then there was a white blend and a grenache blend that I haven't tried yet. Those were from Amplify wines and Good Boy wine (I can't remember which bottle was from which winery).
I think it was ~$140 for the 4 bottles including shipping.

this producer was suggested upthread and fairly popular among Italian natural wines. this is an orange wine, which I've only had once before (Division L'Orange from Oregon).

really aromatic -- smells like honeysuckle and a candle. to me that directly translated into a semi-waxy and floral taste. not very strong (under 12% ABV) so it went down smoothly.

worth a try and an interesting point of reference for orange wines. did not blow me away, but I have bad luck in Italy.

$33 at Bar and Garden in Dallas.

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non-vintage sparkling wine from Jura, France. this is another natural wine hotspot (Ganevat is really popular and hard for me to find) and I've wanted to try a Tissot (also mentioned upthread).

however, I forgot that I hate sparkling wine. this was extra dry (unsweet), and I had a Domaine Moet Vouvray demi-sec (sweet) a few months ago that I didn't finish either, so I am out on this category for a while.

Tissot makes a chardonnay I'll try the next time.

$32 from Bar and Garden in Dallas.

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