Rarely seen but probably often perpetuated by Karens in the wild.

https://twitter.com/melodymcooper/status/1264965252866641920?s=21

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"Fuck aliens." © WarriorPoet415

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

Glad the shelter took the dog back and she's about to lose her job

Fuck her.

-------------------------------

A lot of you players ain't okay.

We would have been better off with an okaycivics board instead of an okayactivist board

>RE: They don't love dogs as much as they hate black people
>Glad the shelter took the dog back and she's about to lose
>her job
>
>Fuck her.

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"Fuck aliens." © WarriorPoet415

That's some next level sense of entitlement.

All praises to that dude for keeping a completely level head and staying calm amid what was going down there.

"Sean sparks like John Starks, nah, Sean ball like John Wall" - Rest In Power Forever Sean Price.

>RE: Knew she was being recorded and still tried to lie.
>That's some next level sense of entitlement.

The circumstances under which they call the cops on black people change, and the levels of entitlement and fragility keep rising ... but the post-incident bullshit stays the exact same. As if they all have the same "How to Diffuse Your Obvious Racism" pamphlet at home. "I'm not racist, that's not me, I was just scared ..." etc. etc. etc.


>All praises to that dude for keeping a completely level head
>and staying calm amid what was going down there.

No doubt. Scary as hell. How he didn't flip is beyond me.

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"Fuck aliens." © WarriorPoet415

FUCK HER SO MUCH for switching up her voice to sound terrified that last time, so very fucked up of her because it sounded like she was in increasingly dangerous danger and that is just so fucked up because based on how scared she sounded I wouldn't have been shocked if, had there been cops nearby, they arrived immediately ready to kill.

Also it just kills me that she did all the lying KNOWING she was being recorded.

What a bitch.

>RE: Glad she lost her dog, can't wait for her to lose her job.
>FUCK HER SO MUCH for switching up her voice to sound
>terrified that last time, so very fucked up of her because it
>sounded like she was in increasingly dangerous danger and that
>is just so fucked up because based on how scared she sounded I
>wouldn't have been shocked if, had there been cops nearby,
>they arrived immediately ready to kill.
>
>Also it just kills me that she did all the lying KNOWING she
>was being recorded.
>
>What a bitch.

They know that even if they're on video CLEARLY making up stories, clearly lying and being horrible racists, that they are 100% safe from any kind of retribution by police or anyone. And that the only person who will suffer is the black person. And that's their goal.

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"Fuck aliens." © WarriorPoet415

Interestingly enough, turns out the dude that told the woman to put the dog on the leash was bird watching. I had no clue that was a serious hobby, but I suppose you learn something new everyday. Here's the link: https://gothamist.com/news/white-woman-calls-911-black-man-birdwatching-central-park-who-said-her-dog-should-be-leashed

"Sean sparks like John Starks, nah, Sean ball like John Wall" - Rest In Power Forever Sean Price.

and clearly was partaking in his hobby. Also - he wasn't concerned about her dog being unleashed because he just likes to play neighborhood cop. Dogs unleashed damage and disturb bird nesting habitats - particularly ground nests. So he was concerned about that - as he should've been as an avid bird watcher. I believe that park boasts something like 250 unique bird species.

I'm glad he was recording so that we all can see what a horrible human display she put on.

-->

>and clearly was partaking in his hobby. Also - he wasn't
>concerned about her dog being unleashed because he just likes
>to play neighborhood cop. Dogs unleashed damage and disturb
>bird nesting habitats - particularly ground nests. So he was
>concerned about that - as he should've been as an avid bird
>watcher. I believe that park boasts something like 250 unique
>bird species.

And not to mention, there is an entire other part of the park where she could've had her dogg off leash at that time, legally.

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"Fuck aliens." © WarriorPoet415

Yall gotta read this. Dude comes prepared...



"The two went back-and-forth about the dog leash. Christian Cooper, according to his Facebook post, then told her: "Look, if you're going to do what you want, I'm going to do what I want, but you're not going to like it."

"I didn't know what that meant. When you're alone in a wooded area, that's absolutely terrifying, right?" Amy Cooper said.

Christian Cooper said he then pulled out dog treats. He told CNN he keeps dog treats with him to get dog owners to put their dogs on leashes because, in his experience, dog owners hate when a stranger feeds their dog treats and immediately restrain their dogs afterward.

Amy Cooper said he was throwing them at her dog. Christian Cooper said he never threw any treats.

And that's when he started recording the incident, he said on Facebook."

link: https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/26/us/central-park-video-dog-video-african-american-trnd/index.html

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Days like this I miss Sha Mecca

Y'all buy those labels, I was born supreme

his opening quotes though, tactics wise.

He for sure was not threatening her, just trying to teach her a lesson for sure, but “if you don’t do what I like I’m gonna do something you don’t like” just isn’t the move to say to a woman alone in a park.

Just posting this link for the Christian Cooper screencap not whatever the tweet says, which I think is trying to defend the woman which is bullshit:

https://twitter.com/levinejonathan/status/1265128587121876994?s=21

>“if you don’t do what I like I’m
>gonna do something you don’t like”


The quote is:
“If you’re going to do what you want, I’m going to do what I want, but you're not going to like it."

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Days like this I miss Sha Mecca

I'm just saying though, even the correct quote doesn't really sound great lol.

The whole reason I came across this whole thought process is I had read that he had graduated from Harvard and already had the treats with him just so he could teach lessons to dog owners who weren't following the leash rules, and that he was a bird watcher who was on the NYC Audubon Society board and I thought to myself "See? This racist ass bitch. This nice guy was just doing the right thing, trying to get her to leash her dog after pointing out nicely that the area they were both in was leash-only by law".

And then I thought to myself "Hmmm. I know all that stuff now, but how would I feel if I didn't know any of that extra stuff, that makes him sound totally great and normal (which he is)? And some dude was trying to lure my dog after saying he was about to do something he knew I wouldn't like? And didn't just walk on by or call the cops himself when I didn't comply with his simple and polite request?"

Again, can't say it enough, she's a racist bitch who absolutely if she truly felt threatened would have high tailed it out of there not stood around calling the cops and sounding truly frighted on the phone when clearly she wasn't but I guess my overall point isn't really about her reaction because it was racist and completely wrong and she was aiming to get him murdered by cops which is just inexcusable, just more about tactics men probably shouldn't take against single women in lonely places.

AGAIN, she was very racist and very wrong though.

Edit to add: I guess it is weird for me, simultaneously being in the position of being full of rage as a Black person, at a fragile racist white woman who was surely aiming to get this Black man murdered by the cops, while also somewhat being surprised a man would say something like that to a woman...Yes he is totally awesome and seems like a great guy and was only doing it to teach her to leash her damn dog, but I still find it maybe not the best tactic when it is just one man and one woman alone in a park.

AGAIN not saying her racist ass should have called the cops.

Did he just did this?

- J. Starks

although I disagree. I can't knock you for seeing it like that.

The reasons for my disagreement are as follows...
First, gotta be clear that this all starts b/c she's breaking the rules and thinks they don't apply to her for whatever reason.

He's familiar with this situation, having encountered it many times, and that's why he handles it the way he does. Meaning, that's why he has the treats and doesn't simply call and wait on the cops (the CNN story says they were both gone from the scene when the cops showed up). If they didn't even show up quickly enough for a white woman's distressed call about a black man supposedly attacking her, they definitely wouldn't show up quick enough for his call about a dog destroying nests and frightening birds off.

But about the main point concerning what he said (doing something she won't like). He immediately revealed that to be dog treats (the horror!) lol. Now for a split second IF he didn't already have the treat in his hand (lol, this sounds so silly to type), that may have sounded terrifying to her, but after he pulls out a dog treat, all fear is gone. By the time he starts recording, she already knows he's not threat at all and is acting out of pure racist entitlement. BUT, let's agree that he could've worded it differently. He could've just said "If you're gonna let your dog run around, I'm gonna give him treats." Ok, cool. No mystery about his actions, but it doesn't highlight the fact that she's acting privileged and entitled like "If you're gonna do what you want" does. I also hesitate to think "oh he means rape" by saying he's also gonna do what he wants, because given historical classifications of black men, people will say that because he's a black man, not just because he's a man. At the end of slavery, we were said to go from child to rapist by so-called scientists of the day. Those attitudes persist. I refuse to feed them. He was talking about treats. Amy knew it, we know it. Everybody knows it. She wasn't afraid.

Of course I think men should be mindful of how we approach women. I'm a black man, so I'm hyper conscious of this. I just think he handled it in pretty much the most thoughtful and practical way possible considering the circumstances. Analyzing this on grounds of what scary thing he could've meant by what he said also only gives her an unfair out that the racist majority will run with.

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Days like this I miss Sha Mecca

(Not that anyone has to of course agree with my viewpoint just thought I would share since it is better explained than what I originally wrote)

I’ve been thinking about this for a few days and I just find it all so interesting and so unfortunate.

First off what Amy did was totally racist and ridiculous and she deserves everything that has come her way by way of job loss and dog loss.

By sounding truly hysterical on the call to police she essentially in my mind was calling for them to murder Mr. Cooper and that is just so extremely wrong and truly shocking.

There to me though is, wedged somewhere in there deep below the surface of this obviously racist act, something to be said about Mr. Cooper’s extremely poor tactics.

In no way shape or form did he deserve someone calling the police on him and making up lies but I don’t think trying to force someone to do something by way of fear is the right tactic.

Once he asked Amy to leash her dog and she said no he should have either called some type of law enforcement or left her alone.

I totally understand that he meant well and is on the board of the Audubon Society and truly only cares about making sure the birds are safe but she didn’t know any of that when he said he was gonna do something she didn’t like and then tried to call her dog over.

I think the goal should be teaching her about how her dog running around is damaging for the birds, not having her so afraid of some man giving her dog treats (which for all she knows has poison in it) that she leashes her dog out of fear.

Again, in no way was Mr. Cooper deserving of Amy’s racist actions but I wish he would have gone about trying to get her to leash her dog in a different and more positive manner.

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/amy-cooper-knew-exactly-what-she-was-doing_n_5ecd1d89c5b6c1f281e0fbc5?

..g my life"

straight up knowingly death threatened him, damn.

At the same time, I'm deliciously delighted that this particularly brand of:

- white woman tears
- white privilege
- wanton disrespect and dismissal of black lives and bodies
- weaponizing blackness

... was on full display so that at least a few will finally see -- and hopefully understand -- what the fuck we be talking about. We can't even bird watch without having our lives threatened.

Fuck her and her whole life.

>At the same time, I'm deliciously delighted that this
>particularly brand of:
>
>- white woman tears
>- white privilege
>- wanton disrespect and dismissal of black lives and bodies
>- weaponizing blackness
>
>... was on full display so that at least a few will finally
>see -- and hopefully understand -- what the fuck we be talking
>about. We can't even bird watch without having our lives
>threatened.
>
>Fuck her and her whole life.

exactly....a lot of them will see themselves now

>
>exactly....a lot of them will see themselves now
>

This behavior ain't new and it continues (and continues to be defended) so I've no faith in folks willingness to actually get it, generally.

But if a few of them do, and change their behavior -- or at least their awareness -- and that brother is alright, then it will be worth it.

But still...fuck her and her whole life. The long way.

aka they know they've been doin this and we have been working through it in work places etc...now they know they're exposed to what they been doping and what we've called them on the floor for culturally

>
>>
>>exactly....a lot of them will see themselves now
>>
>
>This behavior ain't new and it continues (and continues to be
>defended) so I've no faith in folks willingness to actually
>get it, generally.
>
>But if a few of them do, and change their behavior -- or at
>least their awareness -- and that brother is alright, then it
>will be worth it.
>
>But still...fuck her and her whole life. The long way.
>

>At the same time, I'm deliciously delighted that this
>particularly brand of:
>
>- white woman tears
>- white privilege
>- wanton disrespect and dismissal of black lives and bodies
>- weaponizing blackness
>
>... was on full display so that at least a few will finally
>see -- and hopefully understand -- what the fuck we be talking
>about. We can't even bird watch without having our lives
>threatened.
>
>Fuck her and her whole life.

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"Fuck aliens." © WarriorPoet415

to make sure everyone saw her face and could clearly identify her.

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

https://twitter.com/Abelbc85/status/1265054935382724609?s=19

...I'm from the era when A.I. was the answer, now they think ai is the answer - Marlon Craft

and Hilary Mueller (does she still live in STL).

♥ Inescapably Me ♥

"Love is never any better than the lover" Toni Morrison (The Bluest Eye)

media and yet she still did what she did. It baffles me! She weaponized calling the police intentionally.

♥ Inescapably Me ♥

"Love is never any better than the lover" Toni Morrison (The Bluest Eye)

white folks willfully ignore shit like this

<--- Big Baller World Order

with black people

that's why she ran up on him, and made it clear SHE was gonna play the race card when she called them.

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"Fuck aliens." © WarriorPoet415

what ya got?

She don't need a nickname.

-------------------------------

A lot of you players ain't okay.

We would have been better off with an okaycivics board instead of an okayactivist board

everyone's Karen now

>RE: i guess i miss the old days
>everyone's Karen now

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"Fuck aliens." © WarriorPoet415

we used to have to wait at least a day


sheesh


they've gotten realllly good at finding who you are

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"Fuck aliens." © WarriorPoet415

https://twitter.com/JoshuaPotash/status/1265338098256424973

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Days like this I miss Sha Mecca

says he's almost 60.
I guess bird watching keeps you young.

so.......how old is Van Jones? lol.

Them both being bald and wearing glasses doesn’t mean they resemble each other.

He isn’t his twin or anything but there is a resemblance.

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

https://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/manhattan/ny-white-woman-went-to-racist-place-calling-cops-on-black-man-he-says-20200527-fojtmwvh2rfcvco2bgfcxvawju-story.html

I was reading that article earlier and was like "hmmm maybe they are right" lol.

Not that he should even have to fucking be any of that in the fucking first place.

But holy fucking racist shit wtf.

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"Fuck aliens." © WarriorPoet415

https://www.theroot.com/black-reporter-harassed-by-white-man-while-on-air-1843680942

Whelp! America is back, that is for sure!

♥ Inescapably Me ♥

"Love is never any better than the lover" Toni Morrison (The Bluest Eye)

these cats is serious about it


I bet they see the most Nature is Metal shit. I know we wanna think birds is cute and want wings to fly

but you ever realllly looked into the life of birds? They're out here MURKING each other

Just a splattered egg on the pavement

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Days like this I miss Sha Mecca

in high school, I suppose it is pretty obscure but for some reason I'm surprised how surprised some people I know and a couple folks in this thread are that that's a thing. Moreso I guess where I am, since a big part of Midwestern recreation is just going outside and finding something all the nothing.


It was always weird going to her house, she was clearly finding herself in homosexuality but her parents couldn't accept it and also clearly wanted me to be her boyfriend, so they'd make us dinners in secret and insist we sit for them. The dining room table had a huge window on one side that they explained people usually weren't sat in front of because "Paul likes to take a moment to appreciate the avians." A couple different times he'd stop us during dinner and point out the window at something in the distance and explain what I wasn't seeing; once he even walked me over to the window to explain how remarkable it was that he had this bird perching on a certain type of tree in his backyard at that time of year. I would probably never see another of that bird in that tree in my life unless I took up the hobby and really applied myself.


I was a stoner, gamer-ass kid contemplating dropping out of high school so I found it all profoundly funny, goofy, and/or lame at the time, but it's funny the things that you still remember vividly and learn to be really appreciative of later. Though I'll still never see the appeal in this specific hobby personally.


~~~~~~~~~
"This is the streets, and I am the trap." � Jay Bilas
http://www.popmatters.com/pm/archive/contributor/517
Hip Hop Handbook: http://tinyurl.com/ll4kzz

I’ll never forget the Black farmer who said he was more scared of the liberal white women than the southern redneck because the white women were the ones always calling cops when he delivered food in their neighborhood.

This pandemic is a prime example of white people showing their ass when being told what to do.

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

>I’ll never forget the Black farmer who said he was more
>scared of the liberal white women than the southern redneck
>because the white women were the ones always calling cops when
>he delivered food in their neighborhood.
>
>This pandemic is a prime example of white people showing their
>ass when being told what to do.
>
>

mayor pete supporter.

based on this sloppily researched *opinion* piece.
https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/amy-cooper-central-park-racist-dog-walker-trump-a9533581.html

basically they saw that *an* amy cooper in ny (of which there are many) made contributions to dem candidates. and they just decided that was the same amy cooper. even tho her description doesnt match the profile of the woman in the park.
https://www.truthorfiction.com/amy-cooper-donations-barack-obama-pete-buttigieg-john-kerry/

this was even included in the opinion piece to let you know how shitty the journalism was:
-----
There’s a chance the Amy Cooper we see in that viral video may not be the same Amy Cooper whose details were leaked onto social media — but as a New York City resident, she’s still statistically much likely to be a Democrat than a Republican, and the conversation about white liberal racism is long overdue.
-----

but overzealous lefties ignore it just so they can dunk on an establishment dem via a supposed supporter (they hated when people linked the steve scsalise shooter to bernie tho).

i swear that end of the spectrum is like 1 degree away from fox news viewers. theyll run with any narrative as long as it reinforces the thinking in their bubble. they dont even care about vetting information/sources anymore.

But All-Defensive First Team Reeq will be here giving them the Dikembe finger at every turn.

-->

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

"They used to call me Baby Luke....but now? The whole damn 2 Liiiive Crew."

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--

"You can't beat white people. You can only knock them out."

is basically Punching down at this point

stuff like this? should they be state? federal? how should they be enforced? I know things like "filing a false report" can be charged but can they charge people for making bogus racist calls to the police?

"Some might say the Central Park video is evidence of a criminal legal system that’s “broken.” But after years spent representing thousands of New Yorkers in court, I can attest that the reality is worse: The system is working the way it was designed to work — protecting the wealthy, connected, powerful and white, while disenfranchising already-marginalized communities of color.

What can be done? Certainly, end cash bail. We cannot allow people to sit in jail for months on end on the basis of an accusation — not when we can see with our own eyes how easy it is for this to happen.

But that only deals with one consequence of privilege. The privilege itself will be far harder to address.

There are two different sets of rules in our criminal legal system. White Americans live every day with the privilege of knowing that they can call 911 and get help. For poor people and people of color, calling for help when in danger presents a new set of risks — including the risk that they won’t be believed by police or that they’ll be charged with falsely reporting a crime.

What if false-reporting charges were brought in cases like this one? That would send a very different message. To tip the scales, there needs to be accountability for playing the privilege card.

But we can’t stop there. Our real duty is to renew our commitment to creating a very different system of justice — where a black man, falsely accused, can feel safe even without a viral video."

getting into it with a belligerent drone flyer and his girlfriend in Central Park

Dude is definitely concerned about birds and apparently people don't react well to his requests

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

Like some busybody type birdwatcher yelling "excuse me!" to anyone he feels is interfering

But obviously nothing that warrants threatening to have cops kill him while choking thier own dog out because he told them to follow the rules of the park

after doing some research you CAN NOT legally fly a drone in Central Park, so dude was full of shit

I think buddy knew it and pressed him and ultimately is correct. but yeah...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrQvbA8OsDY

because that's pretty hilarious

how you think he got his chick?

"Oh wow, do you have your own plane?"

"Of course.. several actually. Though they're not 'planes' per say, you see..."

"Could you take me flying sometime?"

"Sure, meet me at the park tomorrow morning"

"Uh.. ok"

You know he had to google mad shit to have on hand in this exact argument should someone question his pilot credentials.

"HA I'm glad you ask! I'm FAA zero four dash two certified! NOW MOVE ALONG!"

>You know he had to google mad shit to have on hand in this
>exact argument should someone question his pilot credentials.
>
>"HA I'm glad you ask! I'm FAA zero four dash two certified!
>NOW MOVE ALONG!"

but damn there are some really obnoxious ass people out here.

like do they hear themselves?

but yeah you aint barking on me like that my guy. Change your tone lol

________________________________________________
R.I.P. Soulgyal <3
SUPA NERD LLC.
Knowledge Meets Nature
Musica Negra
#13irteen

I’m not saying she deserves death threats but bro this ain’t the way, she was trying to get you murdered, fuck feeling any sort of way sympathetic:

https://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/manhattan/ny-white-woman-went-to-racist-place-calling-cops-on-black-man-he-says-20200527-fojtmwvh2rfcvco2bgfcxvawju-story.html

and the better person of the two

>I’m not saying she deserves death threats but bro this
>ain’t the way, she was trying to get you murdered, fuck
>feeling any sort of way sympathetic:
>
>https://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/manhattan/ny-white-woman-went-to-racist-place-calling-cops-on-black-man-he-says-20200527-fojtmwvh2rfcvco2bgfcxvawju-story.html

dude need to hand over that diet and skincare routine asap.

>dude need to hand over that diet and skincare routine asap.

>>dude need to hand over that diet and skincare routine asap.
>

with look younger than they are. Meanwhile the Karens are damn near outta the game at 35. Now if you're addicted to cigarettes, liquor & processed foods that's a whole different story.

Certain people need to be educated, trained, whatever - given a chance to rehabilitate. Matt Lauer loses his job? Fuck that guy, he got his checks he can find his way.


But your everyday salaryperson, or part-time worker, should maybe not be put on social death row right away unless they've committed actual crimes.


I get that this is a situation that easily could've resulted in unnecessary death, but so does the man who survived the encounter. If he can find empathy for her, shouldn't the general public, or at the very least her employer?


I also get not wanting to be associated with this sort of person, so I don't know what the best answer is. But oftentimes I feel like the answer is a lot more than the question asked for - I always think back to that lady firing off the wild tweets from her flight several years ago who landed in a foreign country (right?) without her job and blacklisted from all kinds of social media. That's terrifying, even if she was garbage.


~~~~~~~~~
"This is the streets, and I am the trap." � Jay Bilas
http://www.popmatters.com/pm/archive/contributor/517
Hip Hop Handbook: http://tinyurl.com/ll4kzz

"Yo. She had a private situation happen? And she lost her job because of how it blew up on social media? AND that private situation had nothing to do with her job? That sucks".

Buuut the minute I even feel a speck of sympathy I think to myself "Naaaaaah she tried to have a Black man murdered, no one deserves to be forced to work with a trash human being such as her"

I take your overall point for sure but the actions that she displayed that got her fired are so inexcusable to me I have to stan for her bosses (well, former lol).

First of all, she's white. Could just stop there.

But beyond just that, the country will move on to the next story by next week, and some company will like her resume and be willing to overlook her little white crime. Shit I wouldn't be shocked if her original company just hired her back once this all blows over.


>"Yo. She had a private situation happen? And she lost her job
>because of how it blew up on social media? AND that private
>situation had nothing to do with her job? That sucks".
>
>Buuut the minute I even feel a speck of sympathy I think to
>myself "Naaaaaah she tried to have a Black man murdered, no
>one deserves to be forced to work with a trash human being
>such as her"
>
>I take your overall point for sure but the actions that she
>displayed that got her fired are so inexcusable to me I have
>to stan for her bosses (well, former lol).

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"Fuck aliens." © WarriorPoet415

She's VERY lucky it's only her job. She should be charged with a crime of some kind even if it's just lying on the 911 call.


>I get that this is a situation that easily could've resulted
>in unnecessary death


And if you understand that it was very intentional on her part, then you understand everything that needs to be understood here.

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Days like this I miss Sha Mecca

And like Brew said, she's probably not stuck flipping burgers at Wendy's to pay her bills long term.

I could convince myself she should be charged for attempted murder if I let myself take that walk mentally (and that walk is, like, down the block).

It's probably just the service industry person in me, but people that suck are still people to me, and I don't like the idea of someone's life being ruined because they're awful.

But then, of course...

~~~~~~~~~
"This is the streets, and I am the trap." � Jay Bilas
http://www.popmatters.com/pm/archive/contributor/517
Hip Hop Handbook: http://tinyurl.com/ll4kzz