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Subject: "It's the 75th anniversary of Mussolini's death" Search result list | First match | Last match
Walleye
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Tue Apr-28-20 08:23 AM

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"It's the 75th anniversary of Mussolini's death"


          

Communists caught him, executed him, and hung his body in the Piazzale Loreto so regular folks could spit and piss on him.

______________________________

"Walleye, a lot of things are going to go wrong in your life that technically aren't your fault. Always remember that this doesn't make you any less of an idiot"

--Walleye's Dad

  

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Topic Outline
Subject Author Message Date ID
i got some down time, i'll bite. Why should any of us on OKP care
Apr 28th 2020
1
what an odd stance. the poster is presenting history. an observation
Apr 28th 2020
2
Yeah, the photos are something else
Apr 28th 2020
7
stance? not a stance. a question. please settle down.
Apr 28th 2020
15
      asking someone: 'feed me a position!'. is odd to me.
Apr 28th 2020
18
      stop being weird fam. this is where I spend my down time.....
Apr 28th 2020
21
           i can be 'weird' if i want. the fuck?
Apr 28th 2020
22
           Why you poasting like it's 2008? It's 2020, this ain't that kinda party ...
Apr 28th 2020
24
                way to silly it up by stating the year in which i joined.
Apr 28th 2020
26
           I didn't really think it was an odd question
May 01st 2020
41
      also, stance doesn't mean 'up in arms'. it's simply a position.
Apr 28th 2020
19
It's more than fine not to care
Apr 28th 2020
3
      Thank you for the very thorough response!
Apr 28th 2020
4
      I'm always intrigued by US, ahistorial, views about the war anod "who" w...
Apr 28th 2020
5
      And folks will pretend your first point somehow doesn't count
Apr 28th 2020
8
           Don't wanna derail, but it seems like you're romanticizing USSR's motiva...
Apr 28th 2020
20
                But we don't do that same de-coupling in the United States
Apr 28th 2020
23
                     You write very well
Apr 28th 2020
27
                     I think it's near impossible *and* we should do it anyhow
Apr 28th 2020
29
                     wrestling coaches almost always have reactionary political instincts
Apr 28th 2020
30
                     Well said. It's extremely complicated.
Apr 28th 2020
28
                          And the complexity is the fun part
Apr 28th 2020
32
                               Ha yep. Fun/interesting, and endlessly frustrating too.
Apr 28th 2020
33
      *fire emojis*
Apr 28th 2020
14
Got a song out of it at least
Apr 28th 2020
6
I got a good beginners introduction to Mussolini with this Podcast
Apr 28th 2020
9
Shit, this looks good
Apr 28th 2020
11
Checked the Ivan The Terrible pod yesterday. Real life Game of Thrones.....
Apr 29th 2020
38
I was incredibly into Russian History when I was sixteen
Apr 29th 2020
39
Just started listening to this - thanks.
Apr 29th 2020
40
I wonder how popular it would be to hang criminal bodies in public in th...
Apr 28th 2020
10
That's a big part of why I think this is important
Apr 28th 2020
12
      Our system has diffused responsibility so much and made everything legal
Apr 29th 2020
36
           Exactly
Apr 29th 2020
37
Just became familiar with this through Celtic vs. Lazio
Apr 28th 2020
13
That's extremely good
Apr 28th 2020
16
      Nothing from florida could ever be Maoist. From rednecks
Apr 28th 2020
17
           Good call - plus, I forgot about the Packers
Apr 28th 2020
25
                ah what a waste of a specialty
Apr 28th 2020
31
is there a decent movie on this?
Apr 28th 2020
34
That's a really good question!
Apr 28th 2020
35

FLUIDJ
Member since Sep 18th 2002
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Tue Apr-28-20 08:28 AM

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1. "i got some down time, i'll bite. Why should any of us on OKP care "
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

about this?

  

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seemenomore
Member since Jan 01st 2008
217 posts
Tue Apr-28-20 09:11 AM

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2. "what an odd stance. the poster is presenting history. an observation"
In response to Reply # 1
Tue Apr-28-20 09:13 AM by seemenomore

          

of an anniversary.

this ain't fascinating to you:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c7/Mussolini_e_Petacci_a_Piazzale_Loreto%2C_1945.jpg

no?

don't care.

  

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Walleye
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Tue Apr-28-20 11:24 AM

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7. "Yeah, the photos are something else"
In response to Reply # 2


          

The plainer thing that really hits me is that we see our present social and political stability as so permanent, but this was really recent.

______________________________

"Walleye, a lot of things are going to go wrong in your life that technically aren't your fault. Always remember that this doesn't make you any less of an idiot"

--Walleye's Dad

  

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FLUIDJ
Member since Sep 18th 2002
44604 posts
Tue Apr-28-20 12:41 PM

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15. "stance? not a stance. a question. please settle down. "
In response to Reply # 2


  

          

Why assume everyone is up on everything?
Everyone is NOT up on everything.
When not up on something...ask.
*shrugs*

"Get ready....for your blessing....."
"Bury me by my Grand-Grand and when you can come follow me"

  

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seemenomore
Member since Jan 01st 2008
217 posts
Tue Apr-28-20 01:05 PM

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18. "asking someone: 'feed me a position!'. is odd to me."
In response to Reply # 15


          

why not do some research yourself?

you even admitted to having the time.

  

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FLUIDJ
Member since Sep 18th 2002
44604 posts
Tue Apr-28-20 01:18 PM

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21. "stop being weird fam. this is where I spend my down time....."
In response to Reply # 18


  

          

The question I posed was a straight up question and he gave a perfect straight up answer with enough substance to allow me to move forward with some frame of reference. Almost like when you pick up a new book, and you check the back cover or inside flap for quick synopsis...


"Get ready....for your blessing....."
"Bury me by my Grand-Grand and when you can come follow me"

  

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seemenomore
Member since Jan 01st 2008
217 posts
Tue Apr-28-20 01:51 PM

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22. "i can be 'weird' if i want. the fuck?"
In response to Reply # 21


          

i guess this is the intersection at which we both spend our downtime.

i think it's lazy; you think it's efficient.

we can all win.

right?

  

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FLUIDJ
Member since Sep 18th 2002
44604 posts
Tue Apr-28-20 02:05 PM

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24. "Why you poasting like it's 2008? It's 2020, this ain't that kinda party ..."
In response to Reply # 22


  

          

Ease.


"Get ready....for your blessing....."
"Bury me by my Grand-Grand and when you can come follow me"

  

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seemenomore
Member since Jan 01st 2008
217 posts
Tue Apr-28-20 02:14 PM

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26. "way to silly it up by stating the year in which i joined. "
In response to Reply # 24


          

i love you, fluid.

  

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J305
Member since Dec 07th 2008
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Fri May-01-20 12:25 AM

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41. "I didn't really think it was an odd question"
In response to Reply # 21


  

          

was wondering the same myself. In not a bad way, just curiuos.

peace

J305
___________________

People of color are NOT a minority. Think Global.

Don't Let Hollywood fool you.

http://www.twitter.com/Jtronic
http://www.last.fm/user/Jtronic

  

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seemenomore
Member since Jan 01st 2008
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Tue Apr-28-20 01:06 PM

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19. "also, stance doesn't mean 'up in arms'. it's simply a position."
In response to Reply # 15


          

i didn't mean to imply you was wiling out over there. not like that, at least.

  

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Walleye
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Tue Apr-28-20 09:16 AM

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3. "It's more than fine not to care"
In response to Reply # 1


          

Offhand, I'd say a good 85% of my posts over about 20 years here have received crickets. Mussolini wasn't even the most important fascist to die in this week in 1945 (Hitler was up in a couple days) so this is undercard shit, at best.

But I can tell you why I care about it.

The first reason is historical. Americans like to flatter themselves that our liberal, democratic order prevailed over fascism in WWII. Obscuring the sacrifices and success of communists during this period is intentional, as it is meant to additionally obscure a lesson that (to me at least) is revealed in the story of Mussolini's death: that the desire for political power is both libidinal and more common than we imagine. People intuit that the state is nothing but a relationship, and that makes us ultimately responsible for our own freedom. Fascism rises when capital and nationalism collaborate to steal political power from the people.

Our good, liberal democracy is not fascism in shape or size, but it does commit the same theft by slowly narrowing the scope of legitimate political involvement. Over the past few decades we've seen a large scale decline in avenues for regular people to collectively realize political power. Union membership and action have declined. Wealthy people use philanthropy as a shield against having to participate in the successful administration of the state on the same grounds as the rest of us. What you have left is a vote, which we rhetorically privilege as an act of free expression and then deflate as a strategic expression of surrender to one view of the state-as-relationship or another.

That's not some grand evil. Voting is an act, and one that reinforces our collective obligation to each other. But I think that even though we've tried our asses off to describe our current, minimal political participation as calm and even and rational, we're still Milanese working people, waiting for a body to spit and piss on. And that's where socialism as an ideology has something to offer that liberalism doesn't: actual, chaotic political power given to real people and rather than a thin sliver of DC people.

And to be clear, I grew up in the DC area (MoCo) and live in the district now after leaving for fifteen years. Both my parents worked for the federal government when I was growing up, and my father continued to do so until the Bush administration. They're good people who want the best for Americans, but not if it comes at a loss of control for our educated liberal betters. That's the one thing that they'll never cough up.

______________________________

"Walleye, a lot of things are going to go wrong in your life that technically aren't your fault. Always remember that this doesn't make you any less of an idiot"

--Walleye's Dad

  

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FLUIDJ
Member since Sep 18th 2002
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Tue Apr-28-20 09:43 AM

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4. "Thank you for the very thorough response! "
In response to Reply # 3


  

          



"Get ready....for your blessing....."
"Bury me by my Grand-Grand and when you can come follow me"

  

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Hitokiri
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Tue Apr-28-20 09:55 AM

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5. "I'm always intrigued by US, ahistorial, views about the war anod "who" w..."
In response to Reply # 3


  

          

The USSR threw wave after wave after wave of bodies at the Nazi's. 20 million Russians died to win that WWII. It does not happen without them. Communism is the great enemy of Facism (Nazism being the more commonly known/used term in the US), not Liberalism. The US was on the winning side of that war, but the US did not WIN that war.

--

"You can't beat white people. You can only knock them out."

  

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Walleye
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Tue Apr-28-20 11:32 AM

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8. "And folks will pretend your first point somehow doesn't count"
In response to Reply # 5


          

>The USSR threw wave after wave after wave of bodies at the
>Nazi's. 20 million Russians died to win that WWII. It does not
>happen without them.

If an American general recognized the urgent threat of Nazism and committed literal millions of soldiers to stamp it out no matter the cost and American lives were the ones who stood up and agreed to this exchange, we would throw our country a weekly holiday to celebrate it. Georgy Zhukov does it and he's a clunky butcher who blithely commends enormous human suffering. And the Soviet soldiers weren't brave young men (and women, because it doesn't dissolve the immense human rights issues of the USSR to point out that they were better at gender equality in some areas than we are) but brainwashed commies who threw themselves into the woodchipper simply because the state asked.

>Communism is the great enemy of Facism
>(Nazism being the more commonly known/used term in the US),
>not Liberalism. The US was on the winning side of that war,
>but the US did not WIN that war.

Yep. It doesn't require a blind assent to the USSR, especially the USSR under Stalin, to point out that they understood the threat of fascism before the liberal nations of Europe and especially before the United States did.

______________________________

"Walleye, a lot of things are going to go wrong in your life that technically aren't your fault. Always remember that this doesn't make you any less of an idiot"

--Walleye's Dad

  

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PimpTrickGangstaClik
Member since Oct 06th 2005
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Tue Apr-28-20 01:06 PM

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20. "Don't wanna derail, but it seems like you're romanticizing USSR's motiva..."
In response to Reply # 8
Tue Apr-28-20 01:09 PM by PimpTrickGangstaClik

          

This is my HS history class talking, so bear with me lol.

The Soviets were pretty much allies of Germany at the start of the war (maybe frenemies). It wasn't until the Nazis decided to try to conquer the USSR (Operation Barbarossa) that the Soviets started fighting them.

It wasn't the threat of fascism that sparked the Soviets to action. It was existential threat of an invading nation. And it happened much later than the Europeans.

USSR didn't care about fascism until it threatened them


>
>Yep. It doesn't require a blind assent to the USSR, especially
>the USSR under Stalin, to point out that they understood the
>threat of fascism before the liberal nations of Europe and
>especially before the United States did.

_______________________________________

  

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Walleye
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Tue Apr-28-20 02:03 PM

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23. "But we don't do that same de-coupling in the United States"
In response to Reply # 20


          

We joined the war in Europe similarly late and with similar self-interest, but didn't accomplish or lose as much. So why is our heroic intervention in WWII an acceptable source of national mythology and not theirs? I'm actually teaching a very remedial class in 20th century history right now and one of the points that I'm trying to drive home is that trying to find moments where you say "the USSR was acting based on national self-preservation in this case" and "the USSR was acting based on ideology in this case" sort of misses the point when you remember they were figuring out on the fly what it meant to have a modern, bounded nation state based on a fundamentally internationalist ideology.

Past that, I think you're mischaracterizing the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact. It reads like two major powers who were aware that their objectives for Eastern Europe were going to collide, violently, sooner rather than later and wanted to put it off for as long as possible. It was a disastrous concession to the Nazis, but it wasn't friendship.

It's also worth arguing that maybe you should widen your scope as long as we're arguing about whether there is a natural, active opposition between fascism and communism. World War II wasn't the only grounds for the Soviet Union to act on anti-fascism as a goal - and it wasn't the only time that it did. The USSR sent thousands of people to fight for the Spanish republic in the Spanish Civil War,just as the Nazis sent their support for the Nationalists. We can see that as a proxy war with self-preservation at stake or we can see that as an ideological conflict, but I think the correct answer is that both sides understood it as both of those things. If you want another example, very early in the existence of the Soviet Union, Lenin offered vocal support and advice for the Bavarian Soviet Republic in 1919, before the Bavarian communists were smashed to pieces by the proto-fascist Freikorps - many of which would become literal Nazis as soon as it was available as a political option.

So, I agree that I'm romanticizing their involvement, but don't view that as a misunderstanding of the events in play. Look at photos from the Battle of Berlin. Their involvement *was* romantic - at least as much as war can possibly be - and as one last point I think it's also worth taking a different, bottom-up perspective that includes the huge number of communist partisans that were independent of the USSR who took up arms against fascists in the 30's and 40's. Stalin vs. Hitler isn't the only way to look at this, and there are millions of dead communists who entered this struggle independent of that top-down conflict.

______________________________

"Walleye, a lot of things are going to go wrong in your life that technically aren't your fault. Always remember that this doesn't make you any less of an idiot"

--Walleye's Dad

  

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PimpTrickGangstaClik
Member since Oct 06th 2005
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Tue Apr-28-20 02:25 PM

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27. "You write very well"
In response to Reply # 23


          

I'm not going to pretend I'm informed on this topic outside of what a wrestling coach taught me in HS. But what I'm gathering from what you wrote is that the world and the history of it is complicated.
It is damn near impossible to say "this happened solely because that"


_______________________________________

  

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Walleye
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Tue Apr-28-20 02:38 PM

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29. "I think it's near impossible *and* we should do it anyhow"
In response to Reply # 27
Tue Apr-28-20 02:42 PM by Walleye

          

I don't really disagree with you by much. It just seems like a matter of framing to me.

>It is damn near impossible to say "this happened solely
>because that"

History is story-telling. We're working with the same set of facts, and even though I disagree with how you've strung those together, I don't think you've said anything factually incorrect, much less dishonest. So even if the project of saying that "this thing led to that thing" is really complicated, the process of moving toward a clearer understanding seems really important. Especially when we're run by an honest-to-god fascist with no desire to play by the rules of historical story-telling.

To me, the way it should work is you analyze some uncontested facts and tell your story. I get viciously angry and tell you that you're wrong, based on the same uncontested facts and/or additional ones, from reframing the scope of the story we're telling by geography or year or perspective. And then some third sucker comes in and explains that we're BOTH incredibly misguided, offering another new story. And then you and I both turn on that dumb-dumb, in spite of mostly disagreeing before their presence.

Storytelling and arguing. I've got a class full of incredibly dedicated women right now that I'm trying to teach 20th century history (this isn't my typical area of interest and my background in it is VERY limited) and this is the chaotic, messy process that I'm trying to teach them.

______________________________

"Walleye, a lot of things are going to go wrong in your life that technically aren't your fault. Always remember that this doesn't make you any less of an idiot"

--Walleye's Dad

  

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T Reynolds
Member since Apr 16th 2007
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Tue Apr-28-20 02:55 PM

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30. "wrestling coaches almost always have reactionary political instincts"
In response to Reply # 27


  

          

They'll teach you good lessons toin apply all other areas of life tho


  

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Brew
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Tue Apr-28-20 02:37 PM

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28. "Well said. It's extremely complicated."
In response to Reply # 23
Tue Apr-28-20 02:44 PM by Brew

          

And education on the subject(s) here is obviously pro-American, looking at situations where the US backed dictatorships and/or fascism over the course of the last 75 years or so - while framing our foreign policy, incessantly, as "promoting democracy" or some similar refrain - through red, white, and blue-tinted glasses.

The US and USSR's involvement in WWII and the subsequent Cold War are not anywhere near the black and white conflict it's viewed as from our slanted perspective.

And that shouldn't be taken as a full-throated defense of the USSR/Russia, either. It's not. Just echoing your point, in that Capitalism vs. Communism isn't anywhere near black and white. Communism isn't the devil it's made out to be here.

----------------------------------------

"Fuck aliens." © WarriorPoet415

  

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Walleye
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Tue Apr-28-20 03:10 PM

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32. "And the complexity is the fun part"
In response to Reply # 28


          

>the US backed dictatorships and/or fascism over the course of the last >75 years or so - while framing our foreign policy, incessantly,
>as "promoting democracy" or some similar refrain - through
>red, white, and blue-tinted glasses.

Yep. And particularly during the Cold War you have a bunch of very broad, sweeping narratives that collide with each other in really messy, interesting ways. Socialism vs. Capitalism is just a story of competing ideologies until you have specific nations who embody those ideologies trying to figure out what that means on the fly - and often through the lens of a much more discrete story of US vs. USSR. But that latter narrative sometimes consumes the first, say when Stalin and Tito - both dedicated to communist ideology - fell out with each other. Or when the USSR put down independent labor movements in Poland.

Or when other countries, particularly outside the North American/European framework, started to see themselves as the embodiment of socialist values. China (mostly) giving the USSR the cold shoulder and the first world proletariat with some skepticism and tiny, insignificant Cuba sending thousands of soldiers abroad to help African revolutions with no clear, national benefit reframes the socialism vs. capitalism narrative as something independent of the traditional Cold War powers. But instead you get DIFFERENT overlapping narratives like Colonialism vs. Nationalism or De-Colonization vs. NeoColonialism.

And that invites a whole separate band of messiness into the analysis.

______________________________

"Walleye, a lot of things are going to go wrong in your life that technically aren't your fault. Always remember that this doesn't make you any less of an idiot"

--Walleye's Dad

  

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Brew
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Tue Apr-28-20 05:51 PM

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33. "Ha yep. Fun/interesting, and endlessly frustrating too."
In response to Reply # 32


          

I'm OCD and like everything in a neat little package so these unending ideological overlaps, inconsistencies, and contradictions frustrate me to no end.

But I suppose that's exactly why I've always simultaneously been so interested in continuing to dig deeper and learn more about them as the years have gone on, in an effort to try and make sense of them.


>>the US backed dictatorships and/or fascism over the course
>of the last >75 years or so - while framing our foreign
>policy, incessantly,
>>as "promoting democracy" or some similar refrain - through
>>red, white, and blue-tinted glasses.
>
>Yep. And particularly during the Cold War you have a bunch of
>very broad, sweeping narratives that collide with each other
>in really messy, interesting ways. Socialism vs. Capitalism is
>just a story of competing ideologies until you have specific
>nations who embody those ideologies trying to figure out what
>that means on the fly - and often through the lens of a much
>more discrete story of US vs. USSR. But that latter narrative
>sometimes consumes the first, say when Stalin and Tito - both
>dedicated to communist ideology - fell out with each other. Or
>when the USSR put down independent labor movements in Poland.
>
>
>Or when other countries, particularly outside the North
>American/European framework, started to see themselves as the
>embodiment of socialist values. China (mostly) giving the USSR
>the cold shoulder and the first world proletariat with some
>skepticism and tiny, insignificant Cuba sending thousands of
>soldiers abroad to help African revolutions with no clear,
>national benefit reframes the socialism vs. capitalism
>narrative as something independent of the traditional Cold War
>powers. But instead you get DIFFERENT overlapping narratives
>like Colonialism vs. Nationalism or De-Colonization vs.
>NeoColonialism.
>
>And that invites a whole separate band of messiness into the
>analysis.

LOL yep yep yep re: Colonialism et al. It took me a long time to understand how Colonialism was different from so many other historical philosophies and ideologies. And I'm still working it out.

----------------------------------------

"Fuck aliens." © WarriorPoet415

  

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T Reynolds
Member since Apr 16th 2007
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Tue Apr-28-20 12:40 PM

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14. "*fire emojis*"
In response to Reply # 3


  

          

  

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handle
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Tue Apr-28-20 10:07 AM

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6. "Got a song out of it at least"
In response to Reply # 0


          

Cabaret Voltaire: 'Do The Mussolini (Headkick)'
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzsPw0jNCjk

AND an entire band:
Mussolini Headkick - Your God is Dead
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oto_W6SkST8

------------


Gone: My Discogs collection for The Roots:
http://www.discogs.com/user/tomhayes-roots/collection

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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Tue Apr-28-20 12:18 PM

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9. "I got a good beginners introduction to Mussolini with this Podcast"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          


https://www.parcast.com/dictators

BTW, the Ivan the Terrible episodes is the scariest thing I have ever heard in my entire life.


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

  

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Walleye
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Tue Apr-28-20 12:22 PM

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11. "Shit, this looks good"
In response to Reply # 9


          

Thanks for the link. I'm going to check it out.

I'm having a hard time fitting podcasts back into my life since I no longer have to commute. I'm clearly missing some good content, though.

So this is gonna make me have to figure out that problem.

______________________________

"Walleye, a lot of things are going to go wrong in your life that technically aren't your fault. Always remember that this doesn't make you any less of an idiot"

--Walleye's Dad

  

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GOMEZ
Member since Feb 13th 2003
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Wed Apr-29-20 05:31 PM

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38. "Checked the Ivan The Terrible pod yesterday. Real life Game of Thrones....."
In response to Reply # 9


  

          

>
>https://www.parcast.com/dictators
>
>BTW, the Ivan the Terrible episodes is the scariest thing I
>have ever heard in my entire life.
>

I kind of want to dig deeper into Russian history. The Romanov's, Rasputin, Ivan the terrible, WWII... shit is all next levels of wild.

In a generation of swine, the one-eyed pig is king.
-Hunter S. Thompson

  

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Walleye
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Wed Apr-29-20 08:32 PM

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39. "I was incredibly into Russian History when I was sixteen"
In response to Reply # 38
Wed Apr-29-20 08:33 PM by Walleye

          

I read this book called called "Russka" when I was a junior in high school by this incredibly bizarre writer named Edward Rutherfurd. His whole schtick is 700+ page novels set in a particular city that trace a series of families in that city over, like, 5,000 years of storyline. So, Russka is set in this small town in Russia and the story starts in nigh-prehistoric times with the rivalries and inter-marriages and stuff of around a half-dozen different families. The families names change with different linguistic shifts that Mr. Rutherfurd has painstakingly written into his storylines, but continue to basically sound the same through the entire multi-millenia narrative. The stories with the families are interwoven with different big, real-life historical events, so every chapter is like it's own "Titanic" or something.

Rutherfurd wrote a few of these. The first one was called "Sarum" after Salisbury in England and I think it clocked a full one thousand pages. Russka was better, though. The sections on Ivan the Terrible are pretty wild, if I recall. There's also a few on Ireland.

I have no idea if he's still writing, and I'm afraid to revisit the books because I'm afraid they won't hold up. His whole move is really sort of ridiculous though if he's still alive and working he should team up with 23andMe for some horrifyingly addictive synthesis that they could just stream directly into white boomer History Channel dads' brains. Folks who are into genealogy would be tickled with these dumb books. But in addition to it being possible that they were actually good (gotta be okay to hold a HS kid's attention, right?) they were incredibly instrumental in encouraging me to study history, and specifically religious history. That may not have paid off in any sort of career success or even a stable position that I can rely on from semester to semester, but it's the life I chose and I really like teaching so it kind of feels like I owe him something.

Uh, in any case. If you like big, sweeping historical fiction and want to learn more about Russia with a kind of impressive (if a big on-the-nose) attention to historical detail, then I can assure you that there is a book that combines those two things and it... definitely exists.

______________________________

"Walleye, a lot of things are going to go wrong in your life that technically aren't your fault. Always remember that this doesn't make you any less of an idiot"

--Walleye's Dad

  

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Brew
Member since Nov 23rd 2002
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Wed Apr-29-20 09:39 PM

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40. "Just started listening to this - thanks."
In response to Reply # 9
Wed Apr-29-20 09:39 PM by Brew

          

I like it cuz I have some background on Mussolini (and now Stalin) but this pod is diving deeper into some things I wasn't really aware of re: both of them, as well.

----------------------------------------

"Fuck aliens." © WarriorPoet415

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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Tue Apr-28-20 12:19 PM

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10. "I wonder how popular it would be to hang criminal bodies in public in th..."
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We like to think we are all modern and evolved but I am pretty sure that a solid 30% (or whatever Trump's base is) would go for it.


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

  

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Walleye
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Tue Apr-28-20 12:28 PM

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12. "That's a big part of why I think this is important"
In response to Reply # 10


          

>We like to think we are all modern and evolved but I am
>pretty sure that a solid 30% (or whatever Trump's base is)
>would go for it.

I agree that's the reason we think we're past all of this, though I think that the way we've papered over our (apparent) political bloodlust is by alienating ourselves from political participation.

At least in the liberal, democratic west, we think we're past the point in history where we string dictators upside down so that people can mutilate their bodies. But we're not past dictators and we're not past the daily, horrifying indignities that they force on regular people who just want to live their lives freely.

So what have we achieved except for making it clear to people who want to exert power over our lives that they won't suffer any consequences for it?

______________________________

"Walleye, a lot of things are going to go wrong in your life that technically aren't your fault. Always remember that this doesn't make you any less of an idiot"

--Walleye's Dad

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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Wed Apr-29-20 12:01 PM

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36. "Our system has diffused responsibility so much and made everything legal"
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A private equity banker from wall street can make a budgetary decision that indirectly (or directly) leads to the death of 1000 of people on the otherwise of the globe (or city) and there are so many intermediaries between that decision making and death that no one is ever held responsible.

Who has been held accountable for the lead in the water in Flint?

Shit has changed in my lifetime because at least with the S&L scandals of the 80s people actually went to jail. It was unthinkable to send people to jail in 2008 though trillions of dollars were wiped away.


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

  

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Walleye
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Wed Apr-29-20 12:05 PM

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37. "Exactly"
In response to Reply # 36


          

>Shit has changed in my lifetime because at least with the S&L
>scandals of the 80s people actually went to jail. It was
>unthinkable to send people to jail in 2008 though trillions of
>dollars were wiped away.

Any time you hear about an "old" scandal like that one, it sounds like... quaint now. Like men flipping out because a woman showed a bare shoulder in a movie. And as you point out, there were actual consequences.

______________________________

"Walleye, a lot of things are going to go wrong in your life that technically aren't your fault. Always remember that this doesn't make you any less of an idiot"

--Walleye's Dad

  

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T Reynolds
Member since Apr 16th 2007
42755 posts
Tue Apr-28-20 12:38 PM

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13. "Just became familiar with this through Celtic vs. Lazio "
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https://www.besoccer.com/new/follow-your-leader-celtic-respond-to-fascism-with-image-of-mussolini-s-hanging-732936

Pretty awesome soccer hooliganism.

Basically the hanging minus the communists getting it done.

  

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Walleye
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Tue Apr-28-20 12:47 PM

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16. "That's extremely good"
In response to Reply # 13


          

It's fascinating to me that there are soccer clubs that also have, at least to their supporters, political identities. Apparently St. Pauli in Germany is historically associated with anti-fascism?

Could you imagine what it would be like if American sports franchises also came freighted with political identities? Two areas where we don't really practice any sort of restraint coming together in a frightful/hilarious mix.

Tampa Bay Rays are Maoist. In this scenario.

______________________________

"Walleye, a lot of things are going to go wrong in your life that technically aren't your fault. Always remember that this doesn't make you any less of an idiot"

--Walleye's Dad

  

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T Reynolds
Member since Apr 16th 2007
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17. "Nothing from florida could ever be Maoist. From rednecks"
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to gusanos there is not a socialist bone in their bodies

Whereas... the Packers essentially being owned by their fans is a perfect framework for them having super left ultra fans. That and their identity revolving around the town's industry.

But yeah, unfortunately there are a lot of football clubs that use Nazi and fascist symbolism.

  

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Walleye
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Tue Apr-28-20 02:10 PM

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25. "Good call - plus, I forgot about the Packers"
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>Whereas... the Packers essentially being owned by their fans
>is a perfect framework for them having super left ultra fans.
>That and their identity revolving around the town's industry.

Between community ownership of the Packers and pretty strong union support, Wisconsin does seem like a place ripe for radicalization. You could probably run Trotsky himself there, particularly if he was willing to take a soft-on-drunk-driving position. Shit's like the state sport there.

>But yeah, unfortunately there are a lot of football clubs that
>use Nazi and fascist symbolism.

I have a friend who studies sociology of sports, and I'd love to see him deal with fascism and American football.

Instead he just, like, knows things about cricket. Which is not useful to me at all.

______________________________

"Walleye, a lot of things are going to go wrong in your life that technically aren't your fault. Always remember that this doesn't make you any less of an idiot"

--Walleye's Dad

  

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T Reynolds
Member since Apr 16th 2007
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Tue Apr-28-20 03:00 PM

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31. "ah what a waste of a specialty"
In response to Reply # 25


  

          

we scoff and laugh when North Korea forces compliance in showing deference to Kim Jong Un at one of his parades but think nothing of people at an amateur sporting event literally losing their shit when someone in attendance refuses to stand for the national anthem (I used to have a lefty friend who would drive blue collar white guys nuts at our friend's Golden Gloves fights)

>I have a friend who studies sociology of sports, and I'd love
>to see him deal with fascism and American football.
>
>Instead he just, like, knows things about cricket. Which is
>not useful to me at all.

  

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LAbeathustla
Member since Jan 24th 2004
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Tue Apr-28-20 07:05 PM

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34. "is there a decent movie on this?"
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------------------------------------
2019 CABG Survivor

2016 OK Survivor Champion

be about it or be without it

RIP GOATs

  

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Walleye
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Tue Apr-28-20 07:16 PM

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35. "That's a really good question!"
In response to Reply # 34


          

I have no idea, but I would really like to see a good movie about this so I hope somebody chimes in. Wikipedia says that "Last Days of Mussolini" had Rod Steiger playing Mussolini and Henry Fonda was in it too. They're both pretty good.

Playing Mussolini would seem like a kind of low-upside choice for an actor. His persona was so, like, self-consciously absurd that it seems really easy for somebody to look ridiculous playing him.

______________________________

"Walleye, a lot of things are going to go wrong in your life that technically aren't your fault. Always remember that this doesn't make you any less of an idiot"

--Walleye's Dad

  

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