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Subject: "Nevada Primary" Previous topic | Next topic
legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
79338 posts
Mon Feb-17-20 09:42 AM

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"Nevada Primary"


          

Politico says it’s a race for 2nd. Bernie got it locked.

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/02/17/bernie-sanders-nevada-breaks-pack-115450

LAS VEGAS — Bernie Sanders is becoming harder to stop. Nevada is where his opponents are starting to realize it.

Advisers to three rival campaigns privately conceded over the weekend that the best anyone else could hope for here is second or third. Some of them gape at the crowd sizes at Sanders' events — like the swarm of supporters who accompanied Sanders, his fist raised, to an early caucus site in Las Vegas on Saturday, the first day of early voting in the state.


While few expect that Sanders can carry more than a third of the vote in Nevada, nearly everyone believes that will be enough to win in a field where the moderate vote remains splintered. It is becoming a source of celebration for Sanders' supporters and an urgent problem for those who want to prevent him from claiming the nomination.
“He’s going to win with 28 percent of the vote. We’re not talking about him getting 50 percent of the vote,” said Andres Ramirez, a Nevada-based Democratic strategist and former vice chairman of the Democratic National Committee’s Hispanic Caucus. “But the rest of the field is so fragmented, and he has his base locked, that he can continue winning just by holding onto his base.”

There are signs the field may become even more fragmented in Nevada this week.
"The rest of the field is so fragmented, and he has his base locked, that he can continue winning just by holding onto his base.”

- Andres Ramirez, a Nevada-based Democratic strategist
Pete Buttigieg, who topped the field with Sanders in Iowa and finished less than 2 percentage points behind him in New Hampshire, is not polling well in Nevada or in the next voting state, South Carolina. Amy Klobuchar surged in New Hampshire but is starting from behind in Nevada. Biden is the opposite — humiliated in Iowa and New Hampshire but with better prospects here.


An aide to one of Sanders' opponents described the new "default state of the race" as one featuring Sanders in his own orbit and everyone else in theirs.

The carousel of rising and falling centrists is pushing Sanders ahead. Each of his competitors is now scrambling to emerge as the one credible alternative to him — and to do so convincingly before Super Tuesday, when the free-spending billionaire Michael Bloomberg begins to assert himself in that same centrist lane.

It may be too late. In Nevada this weekend — the first state with a sizable Latino vote — Democratic activists were still murmuring about the inability of Klobuchar and Tom Steyer to name Mexico’s president during interviews with Telemundo late last week. Polling suggests Buttigieg and Klobuchar are not exciting broad swaths of voters in Nevada and South Carolina. Warren finished a distant fourth in New Hampshire. Hoarse when she addressed a Clark County Democratic Party gala at the Tropicana on Saturday night, she said she’d caught a cold.

At the Clark County event that evening, Sanders ignored them all, framing the primary as a race only between him and Bloomberg, who is rising in national polls.

“Regardless of how much money a multi-billionaire candidate is willing to spend on his election,” Sanders told activists in Las Vegas, “we will not create the energy and excitement we need to defeat Donald Trump if that candidate pursued, advocated for and enacted racist policies like stop-and-frisk, which caused communities of color in his city to live in fear.”

The dim prospects of anyone beating Sanders in Nevada were laid bare last week, when the state’s powerful Culinary Workers Union elected not to endorse in the presidential primary. Despite its criticism of Sanders’ signature policy proposal, Medicare for All, the union was not convinced that any other Democrat could defeat Sanders, even with the union’s endorsement, according to a source familiar with the union’s deliberations.


Nor will Harry Reid, the former Senate majority leader, get involved. After casting his caucus vote early on Saturday at the East Las Vegas Library, he said he marked “uncommitted.” While praising every candidate, he said he did not plan to consider endorsing until after Super Tuesday.


No Democrat, of course, views Nevada as a last stand. Multiple candidates are campaigning here with an eye on the primaries to come, airing advertisements in later-voting states or leaving Nevada in spurts to expand their footprints in the West.

Biden, following demoralizing finishes in Iowa and New Hampshire, said he believes he has “a shot at winning” Nevada but that he does not have to. Other campaigns say an impressive debate performance on Wednesday could lift them, citing Klobuchar’s post-debate surge in New Hampshire as an example.

Buttigieg began organizing relatively late in Nevada but fielded a successful caucus operation in Iowa that his supporters believe he may be able to replicate here. Buttigieg said Sunday that the contest is a "jump ball."

Still, the imperative to draw some momentum from the Feb. 22 caucuses hangs heavily over every campaign — and Sanders is tilting the landscape.


Emerging from a long line outside a caucus site on Saturday, Clark County Democratic Party Chairwoman Donna West said the election remains “wide open,” citing Klobuchar as an example of a candidate who is “coming on strong.”

Yet, Sanders was impossible to ignore.

“I mean, they have 250 staffers, and I’m sure they brought more in from Iowa,” West said. “They are staffed up … The gentleman who was behind me in line said the only campaign he’d heard from was the Sanders campaign.”

The Nevada Poll released on Friday had Sanders running at 25 percent, followed by Biden at 18 percent and Warren at 13 percent. And as other campaigns arrived at the Tropicana for the Democratic gala on Saturday night, they opened their programs to find the Vermont senator — in a full-page ad on the inside cover — staring back at them.


Megan Jones, a Nevada-based Democratic consultant who advised Kamala Harris’ presidential campaign, said it is possible that Biden or Warren could revive their candidacies in the caucuses.

Still, she said, “Any of these candidates are going to be hard pressed to get 30 percent of the vote.”


Even for Sanders, Jones said, “There’s no doubt that he has the best organization for the long haul. But if he doesn’t get above 25ish, 25 percent in any of these states, what does that mean? I think it might mean that we go to a brokered convention, or I think Bloomberg, while I think he definitely is in it to win it, I think he also is in it to make sure Bernie doesn’t.”

Norman Solomon, a co-founder of the pro-Sanders online activist group RootsAction.org, said Bloomberg does represent a “rising fear,” if only because of the money he can spend.

But he likened moderate Democrats’ inability to settle on a candidate in the early-voting states to an identity crisis — in part of Sanders' making.

“The establishment,” he said, “seems almost clueless about what they have to offer.”

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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Topic Outline
Subject Author Message Date ID
get them votes in.
Feb 17th 2020
1
Meanwhile, Amy Klobuchar can’t name the President of Mexico
Feb 18th 2020
2
Terrible. Didn’t Pete also whiff on the same question?
Feb 18th 2020
4
      Nah, it was Steyer
Feb 18th 2020
5
      at least Steyer knew MLO's politics though lol
Feb 18th 2020
7
      Ahh yes, thanks for the correction.
Feb 18th 2020
13
      Pete did well in his interview.
Feb 18th 2020
6
           I really don't think this is true
Feb 18th 2020
8
                I doubt he has hard fluency in any of them
Feb 18th 2020
10
                lol.. why did I need so many more words to say this same thing??
Feb 18th 2020
12
                Agreed. That said, it does seem to have been sensationalized by others,
Feb 18th 2020
11
Bern at 35%
Feb 18th 2020
3
Not gonna be Warren. She shit all over herself.
Feb 18th 2020
9
      She’s at 19%
Feb 18th 2020
18
           No. It's Bernie vs everybody else.
Feb 19th 2020
32
looks like another mess ahead
Feb 18th 2020
14
Well what do you know: Bloomberg qualified for Nevada debate
Feb 18th 2020
15
Ngl:I'm interested to see how/whether the debate format helps him or not...
Feb 18th 2020
16
      im definitely curious to see how her performs in the debate
Feb 18th 2020
17
      He strikes me as the type to take the bait
Feb 18th 2020
19
      I'm also interested in how moderators will adjudicate the debate
Feb 18th 2020
23
2 important articles
Feb 18th 2020
20
Propagandists ? damn
Feb 18th 2020
21
RE: Propagandists ? damn
Feb 18th 2020
24
      Not Krystal Ball
Feb 18th 2020
25
im reading through the first one at the primary source
Feb 18th 2020
22
i just noticed the first link is broken
Feb 18th 2020
26
Re: the Yale/Galvani study - Since so many other candidate's proposals
Feb 18th 2020
27
thanks for that link
Feb 19th 2020
35
Other thing is, I've been following these studies re: the healthcare
Feb 18th 2020
28
      What are the other plans?
Feb 19th 2020
30
      Ummm, on his website looks like a 7-pronged strategy:
Feb 24th 2020
96
      a couple of points
Feb 19th 2020
34
      Ugh. #94 lol
Feb 24th 2020
95
      Pete Buttigieg’s Health Care Plan Is A Joke
Feb 19th 2020
37
           I really had to come back to this when I had time. Wow.
Feb 24th 2020
94
                How many people died while you were writing that
Feb 25th 2020
100
                     How many people would die from untimely access to care due to
Feb 25th 2020
107
1st time voter Boots Riley
Feb 18th 2020
29
thats interesting
Feb 19th 2020
31
      RE: thats interesting
Feb 19th 2020
38
           dope, thanks
Feb 19th 2020
39
wait, Andrew Yang dropped out of the race
Feb 19th 2020
33
Booo him?
Feb 19th 2020
36
Van Jones still has the hots for him at least
Feb 21st 2020
44
      now bernie fans love cnn/van jones
Feb 24th 2020
97
Debate Check In
Feb 19th 2020
40
Who is Robb Stark ?
Feb 19th 2020
41
http://www.mayopete.io/
Feb 20th 2020
42
LOL
Feb 21st 2020
45
All signs point to a very high turnout in the Nevada Caucus
Feb 21st 2020
All signs point to a very high turnout in the Nevada Caucus
Feb 21st 2020
43
Worth the Price? Doc about Biden's role in Iraq War (link)
Feb 22nd 2020
46
My girl Liz needs to finish top 3 (hoping for second), hoping as many
Feb 22nd 2020
47
Good write up/article from nytimes, showing how much each spent
Feb 22nd 2020
48
Bernard killing this shit.
Feb 22nd 2020
49
He has the Latino vote on lock in Nevada
Feb 22nd 2020
50
      This isn’t unique to Nevada
Feb 22nd 2020
51
           I still want to see it play out before waving the victory flag
Feb 22nd 2020
52
Since Iowa
Feb 22nd 2020
53
Why can't Bernie win ?
Feb 22nd 2020
54
RE: Why can't Bernie win ?
Feb 22nd 2020
56
      To think this ignores MOUNDS of data.
Feb 22nd 2020
58
      yea - I was hoping for some actual empirical-based argument
Feb 22nd 2020
59
      I can't see him losing any state Hillary actually won
Feb 23rd 2020
69
      Sanders is best positioned to gain traction in a red leaning electoral m...
Feb 22nd 2020
61
      Americans are extremely scared of change...
Feb 22nd 2020
62
           This just isn’t true.
Feb 22nd 2020
68
                Then why are so many voters still thinking Bernie can’t win?
Feb 23rd 2020
72
                     Because they don't pay attention to the facts.
Feb 23rd 2020
73
                          Bernie Bro is a myth ?
Feb 23rd 2020
74
                               It’s legit scary how nutz some of these folks are
Feb 23rd 2020
76
                               A Bernie "bro" is likely to be a woman and/or a POC
Feb 23rd 2020
77
                               They've decided that it's true and they don't care about the reality
Feb 23rd 2020
79
                               Yes, he has the most diverse base by a mile.
Feb 23rd 2020
78
      Interesting
Feb 22nd 2020
67
RE: Since Iowa
Feb 22nd 2020
55
Good question.
Feb 22nd 2020
60
      Bloomberg?
Feb 22nd 2020
64
      Those dudes ain’t winning
Feb 22nd 2020
65
      Bloomberg's on the ballot I'm skipping it.
Feb 23rd 2020
70
      LOL. Bernie does better against Trump than Bloomberg and Pete
Feb 23rd 2020
71
      I think I know what you mean.
Feb 23rd 2020
84
      And to your point about wanting a clear mod/ctr-left winner already:
Feb 23rd 2020
85
I don’t think he can win either but this seems to be the cards
Feb 22nd 2020
63
Thus far, Sanders is dominating both the pop vote *and* alignment
Feb 22nd 2020
57
FEEL THE BERN🔥✊🏽🔥✊🏾🔥✊🏻🔥✊🏿🔥✊🏼
Feb 22nd 2020
66
The Dems comparing Bernie to nazis today lost big in 2016
Feb 23rd 2020
75
I wish I could compile all the shit said about Obama in '08
Feb 23rd 2020
80
the fearmongering around bernie from people who know better
Feb 23rd 2020
81
Ok Reeq :/
Feb 23rd 2020
83
      Huh? You pretty much nailed it with the Nazi comparison
Feb 24th 2020
86
      Lol, right. I think we agree.
Feb 24th 2020
93
      there's fair criticism and then there's fearmongering
Feb 24th 2020
88
      I hear ya, and fair points. Just want to respond to this one exchange:
Feb 24th 2020
92
           Stop falling for the manufactured "Bernie Bro" trope...
Feb 25th 2020
99
                Has anyone provided receipts
Feb 25th 2020
101
                Fam.. there is an OKP who dates a woman who identifies
Feb 25th 2020
104
                I'm not falling for anything lol.I do my research,I observe,I don't like...
Feb 25th 2020
105
                     So.. when folks say they are harassed does Twitter delete the text
Feb 25th 2020
106
                          I'm not sure tbh. A lot of people screenshot tho, so the worst ones
Feb 25th 2020
109
                               Ok. I found a few.
Feb 25th 2020
111
      cmon sis you know im not a sanders cheerleader.
Feb 25th 2020
108
           I hear ya.
Feb 25th 2020
110
yup. you already know Trump's trying to make this election
Feb 23rd 2020
82
      pretty much... LOL, that's riling up the GOP base
Feb 24th 2020
89
      any statement that begins with "people arent stupid enough to"
Feb 25th 2020
113
           yeah that door got permanently kicked down in 2016.
Feb 26th 2020
115
LOL @ this Buttigieg stunt
Feb 24th 2020
87
huge win by burning man
Feb 24th 2020
90
bernies san antonio speech was pretty good
Feb 24th 2020
91
RIP to the 'How You Gonna Pay for That' trope
Feb 25th 2020
98
Biden thinks he's running for senate???? Drop out Joe :(
Feb 25th 2020
102
Yeah this is a bad look
Feb 25th 2020
103
lmao poor unky joe
Feb 25th 2020
112
my man just wants a glass of milk and some graham crackers.
Feb 25th 2020
114

Dr Claw
Member since Jun 25th 2003
132212 posts
Mon Feb-17-20 05:52 PM

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1. "get them votes in."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

The goal now is to get Bloomberg out. Anyone but THAT guy.

Fighting Trump with Trump is a bad idea. and I'm already seeing people going into full Coon Mode over The Architect of Stop and Frisk.

Yes, I'm mad. Let's move on.

Jays | Cavs | Eagles | Sabres | Tarheels

PSN: Dr_Claw_77 | XBL: Dr Claw 077 | FB: drclaw077 | T: @drclaw77 | http://thepeoplesvault.wordpress.com

  

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Vex_id
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Tue Feb-18-20 09:08 AM

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2. "Meanwhile, Amy Klobuchar can’t name the President of Mexico "
In response to Reply # 0


          

https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=WeOMjXDMeNw

She just lost her 4 LatinX supporters.

-->

  

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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
79338 posts
Tue Feb-18-20 09:11 AM

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4. "Terrible. Didn’t Pete also whiff on the same question? "
In response to Reply # 2


          

Not a good way to go into Nevada.

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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bentagain
Member since Mar 19th 2008
16595 posts
Tue Feb-18-20 09:13 AM

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5. "Nah, it was Steyer"
In response to Reply # 4


  

          

SMH@a US Senator not knowing who MLO is

Pete strikes me as genuinely smart...which does him a disservice when he evades questions and topics

But he was on that one.

---------------------------------------------------------------

If you can't understand it without an explanation

you can't understand it with an explanation

  

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Vex_id
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Tue Feb-18-20 09:32 AM

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7. "at least Steyer knew MLO's politics though lol"
In response to Reply # 5


          

Amy was just out there like "yea, I got nothing...sorrrry!"

-->

  

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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
79338 posts
Tue Feb-18-20 10:06 AM

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13. "Ahh yes, thanks for the correction. "
In response to Reply # 5


          

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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Vex_id
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Tue Feb-18-20 09:31 AM

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6. "Pete did well in his interview."
In response to Reply # 4


          

He spoke solid Spanish to set off the interview, and while he didn't really know much about the domestic political climate in Mexico, he did at least know the President's name lol.

The guy speaks 7 languages and is as polished as could be in these situations. Almost too polished.

-->

  

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Walleye
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Tue Feb-18-20 09:36 AM

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8. "I really don't think this is true"
In response to Reply # 6


          

>The guy speaks 7 languages

Being DC fluent doesn't count. He's gotta actually *speak* another language for us to trot this out. Good accent. At length. Extemporaneously.

______________________________

"Walleye, a lot of things are going to go wrong in your life that technically aren't your fault. Always remember that this doesn't make you any less of an idiot"

--Walleye's Dad

  

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Vex_id
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Tue Feb-18-20 09:46 AM

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10. "I doubt he has hard fluency in any of them"
In response to Reply # 8


          

but even being conversationally fluent in that many languages is impressive - especially for an American.

-->

  

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kfine
Member since Jan 11th 2009
2218 posts
Tue Feb-18-20 09:55 AM

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12. "lol.. why did I need so many more words to say this same thing??"
In response to Reply # 10


          



>but even being conversationally fluent in that many languages
>is impressive - especially for an American.


agreed.

  

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kfine
Member since Jan 11th 2009
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Tue Feb-18-20 09:53 AM

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11. "Agreed. That said, it does seem to have been sensationalized by others,"
In response to Reply # 8


          


like perhaps some of his staffers/surrogates and the MSM, not necessarily him. I've noticed he tends to play his language proficiency down when asked, though he's generally able to hold his own when put on the spot in an interview, by a foreign media outlet, etc.

I think at best the better word to use is probably conversant.

But tbf even an intermediate capacity to hear/understand, read, and converse in a broad range of languages is still a great skill to have, certainly as a politician.

I have maybe a basic capacity to hear/understand and read 2 languages aside from English (french, igbo... actually I guess 3 languages if pidgin/creole counts) and it's paid noticeable dividends in my life, tho not professionally. The ability/confidence to not only converse at his level (plus nail the accents, which is a skill in and of itself), but with even more languages would be a game-changer, personally.


>Being DC fluent doesn't count. He's gotta actually *speak*
>another language for us to trot this out. Good accent. At
>length. Extemporaneously.

  

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bentagain
Member since Mar 19th 2008
16595 posts
Tue Feb-18-20 09:09 AM

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3. "Bern at 35%"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

A Warren Sanders ticket = majority

Bloomberg is not on the ballot in NV or SC.

---------------------------------------------------------------

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you can't understand it with an explanation

  

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bignick
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Tue Feb-18-20 09:44 AM

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9. "Not gonna be Warren. She shit all over herself. "
In response to Reply # 3


  

          

  

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bentagain
Member since Mar 19th 2008
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Tue Feb-18-20 10:56 AM

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18. "She’s at 19%"
In response to Reply # 9


  

          

They both need to realize it’s the 2 of them vs errybody else

Hope they coalesce before Super Tuesday

or they’ll continue to divide their half

---------------------------------------------------------------

If you can't understand it without an explanation

you can't understand it with an explanation

  

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bignick
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Wed Feb-19-20 10:16 AM

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32. "No. It's Bernie vs everybody else. "
In response to Reply # 18


  

          

She knows that too. That's why they started attacking him.

  

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mista k5
Member since Feb 01st 2006
16404 posts
Tue Feb-18-20 10:18 AM

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14. "looks like another mess ahead"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

possibly only for second place.

26k already voted early...in a caucus, 4 more early voting days to go right? debate is tomorrow. bloomberg made the cut.

turn out will be low on saturday right? meaning less than 50% of people that vote will wait until saturday. it will be interesting how this rank choice voting works out and affects the people that come in on saturday not wanting to vote for bernie.

im guessing bernie wins "big", biden gets no delegates and unless pete or amy get second that will be all the media talks about. along with bloomberg coming.

warren is polling second but we have what, 1 or 2 polls? and shes been static, barely ahead of the rest. i think her best hope is that a lot of people do put her as second choice in early voting. that might get her some delegates.

i wonder how many candidates come out with delegates.

  

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Vex_id
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Tue Feb-18-20 10:20 AM

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15. "Well what do you know: Bloomberg qualified for Nevada debate"
In response to Reply # 0


          

https://www.npr.org/2020/02/18/806703427/npr-pbs-newshour-marist-poll-sanders-leads-bloomberg-qualifies-for-debate?fbclid=IwAR050OfGSv6irJ07kSI7sCYjYDWZIVfr9itELBAXgmL_H4pCRKWRZ1hFxYc

-->

  

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kfine
Member since Jan 11th 2009
2218 posts
Tue Feb-18-20 10:43 AM

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16. "Ngl:I'm interested to see how/whether the debate format helps him or not..."
In response to Reply # 15
Tue Feb-18-20 10:44 AM by kfine

          

It might just be me, but I feel like his persona is almost as offputting as some aspects of his record lol. He very much comes across as the disconnected, smug, dismissive billionaire some might assume he is, imho.

So ya.. I'm wondering how he will translate in debate format, where people have to like *him* not just his commercials. I think it's fair to say the debates didn't help (and possibly hurt) Biden, whereas Klobuchar seems to be the only candidate who's been able to capitalize off her debate "moments".

I've watched the few recent Bloomberg interviews I could find and a bit of an old televised debate from his mayoral years to try to get a sense but.. really can't call it *shrug*

  

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mista k5
Member since Feb 01st 2006
16404 posts
Tue Feb-18-20 10:51 AM

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17. "im definitely curious to see how her performs in the debate"
In response to Reply # 16


  

          

how will the other candidates address him?

will he wear steyers tie?

  

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bentagain
Member since Mar 19th 2008
16595 posts
Tue Feb-18-20 10:58 AM

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19. "He strikes me as the type to take the bait"
In response to Reply # 17


  

          

Literally every D policy is contrasted by his record

I hope it’s a test run of Trumpster attacks...from errybody

I mean, how can Biden just let him co-opt Barry O?

---------------------------------------------------------------

If you can't understand it without an explanation

you can't understand it with an explanation

  

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Vex_id
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Tue Feb-18-20 11:51 AM

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23. "I'm also interested in how moderators will adjudicate the debate"
In response to Reply # 16


          

Will he be treated like a front-runner? Will he get softball questions and be given a pass?

One thing is for sure, Mike has been pre-meditating this moment for a long time. He will be prepared for anything.


-->

  

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reaction
Member since Aug 09th 2019
315 posts
Tue Feb-18-20 11:28 AM

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20. "2 important articles"
In response to Reply # 0


          

Just thought these 2 important articles should be documented in the political discussion and didn't want to start a new thread.

New Yale Study shows Medicare for All Would Save $450 Billion and Prevent 68,000 Deaths Every Year

https://truthout.org/articles/medicare-for-all-would-save-450-billion-and-prevent-68000-deaths-every-year/

Propagandists Cry About Bernie’s Online Base Because It’s Effective, Not Because It’s Mean

https://caitlinjohnstone.com/2020/02/14/propagandists-cry-about-bernies-online-base-because-its-effective-not-because-its-mean/

Anyone pushing that smear would do well to read that article and see how they are just helping the elites.

  

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Lurkmode
Member since May 07th 2011
5163 posts
Tue Feb-18-20 11:42 AM

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21. "Propagandists ? damn"
In response to Reply # 20


  

          

>Just thought these 2 important articles should be documented
>in the political discussion and didn't want to start a new
>thread.
>
>New Yale Study shows Medicare for All Would Save $450 Billion
>and Prevent 68,000 Deaths Every Year
>
>https://truthout.org/articles/medicare-for-all-would-save-450-billion-and-prevent-68000-deaths-every-year/
>
>Propagandists Cry About Bernie’s Online Base Because It’s
>Effective, Not Because It’s Mean
>
>https://caitlinjohnstone.com/2020/02/14/propagandists-cry-about-bernies-online-base-because-its-effective-not-because-its-mean/
>
>Anyone pushing that smear would do well to read that article
>and see how they are just helping the elites.


It's giving the bully pieces legs, which doesn't help his campaign.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/02/13/union-strikes-back-presidential-candidate/

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reaction
Member since Aug 09th 2019
315 posts
Tue Feb-18-20 12:06 PM

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24. "RE: Propagandists ? damn"
In response to Reply # 21
Tue Feb-18-20 12:07 PM by reaction

          

Yes, propagandists. If you'd like it explained in visual form this is a brilliant summation https://youtu.be/Ib1nTc7859Y and also answers your questions about the Culinary Union.

  

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Lurkmode
Member since May 07th 2011
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Tue Feb-18-20 12:24 PM

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25. "Not Krystal Ball "
In response to Reply # 24


  

          

>Yes, propagandists. If you'd like it explained in visual
>form this is a brilliant summation
>https://youtu.be/Ib1nTc7859Y and also answers your questions
>about the Culinary Union.

Another Tulsi
https://thehill.com/hilltv/rising/463292-krystal-ball-impeachment-inquiry-shows-hallmarks-of-the-overpromise

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mista k5
Member since Feb 01st 2006
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Tue Feb-18-20 11:44 AM

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22. "im reading through the first one at the primary source"
In response to Reply # 20


  

          

it requires you register but its free.

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(19)33019-3/fulltext

so far they are taking a conservative approach to the calculations.

they even have a tool to adjust different savings/revenue factors and see how that would affect the calculations.
http://shift.cidma.us/

it would be great to have a comparison that includes the public option, maybe it can be simulated with the tool? maybe they touch on it later on.

i was going to up the previous health care post but i think this works.

  

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mista k5
Member since Feb 01st 2006
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Tue Feb-18-20 12:32 PM

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26. "i just noticed the first link is broken"
In response to Reply # 22
Tue Feb-18-20 12:33 PM by mista k5

  

          

if you copy and paste the whole link it works.

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(19)33019-3/fulltext

i guess the ( breaks it

  

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kfine
Member since Jan 11th 2009
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Tue Feb-18-20 08:12 PM

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27. "Re: the Yale/Galvani study - Since so many other candidate's proposals"
In response to Reply # 20
Tue Feb-18-20 08:13 PM by kfine

          

would also achieve universal coverage (i.e. reduce uninsured population by at least 30M), Sanders' plan isn't the only one that could save lives tho.

Warren's plan, which would achieve near universal coverage and thus save just as many lives, does so without taking sizeable chunks off the paychecks of lower- and middle-income taxpayers.

Buttigieg's plan, which would also achieve near-universal coverage and thus save just as many lives, does so without taking sizeable chunks off the paychecks of lower- and middle-income taxpayers AND without blowing up the debt AND while meeting deficit-control/PAYGO requirements that current law necessitates for legislation to actually pass.

I don't think the debate among Dems is whether those 68000 lives should be saved, it's about the picking a sustainable approach that can actually get passed into law to save them. I think the most comprehensive look so far comparing the frontrunners' plans has been by the (independent, non-partisan) Committee for a Responsible Federal Budget:

https://www.crfb.org/papers/primary-care-estimating-leading-democratic-candidates-health-plans



>Just thought these 2 important articles should be documented
>in the political discussion and didn't want to start a new
>thread.
>
>New Yale Study shows Medicare for All Would Save $450 Billion
>and Prevent 68,000 Deaths Every Year
>

  

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mista k5
Member since Feb 01st 2006
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Wed Feb-19-20 10:56 AM

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35. "thanks for that link"
In response to Reply # 27


  

          

definitely found some information i had not seen previously. its interesting that they estimate warrens plan could save 1.2 trillion (only second to petes 1.4 trillion) but could cost up to 11.2 trillion more (only second to bernie).

Is there more detail about petes option than the below?

"Buttigieg would expand the Affordable Care Act (ACA), establish a “Medicare for All Who Want It” public option, automatically enroll eligible Americans into affordable coverage, retroactively enroll those who don’t sign up for insurance, and establish a new fund to reimburse providers for uncompensated care.

Buttigieg would increase the generosity of ACA premium subsidies in several ways. Currently, subsidies are based on the cost of a “silver” plan with a 70 percent actuarial value.38 Under Buttigieg’s proposal, subsidies would be determined based on the cost of a “gold” plan with an 80 percent actuarial value. He would further increase subsidies by reducing the share of income that subsidized households would be expected to pay for their insurance, capping it at 8.5 percent of income for all Americans (currently, those below 400 percent of the federal poverty level are capped at 9.8 percent; there is no cap for those above that threshold).39 In addition, he would restore funding for and expand cost-sharing reductions.40 Finally, he would overturn multiple Trump Administration rules supporting the sale of less generous insurance plans.41

Buttigieg would also establish a new “Medicare for All Who Want It” public option that would be available to those purchasing insurance on the insurance exchanges, low-income households in states that have not expanded Medicaid under the ACA, and those who currently lack insurance. In addition, those with employer coverage could opt to instead use their employer’s contribution to buy into the public plan, and employers themselves could buy the plan on behalf of their workers (this implies a repeal of the ACA’s employer mandate – though the campaign has said some employer contribution would remain). Buttigieg would automatically enroll individuals eligible for free coverage into the public option. Finally, he would establish a process to retroactively enroll Americans without insurance in the public option and charge them a premium after the fact (presumably as part of tax filing).42 Medical providers would be reimbursed for care given prior to enrollment through a new uncompensated care fund.

Buttigieg’s proposal resembles Option #5 in From Incremental to Comprehensive Health Reform by Blumberg, Holahan, Beuttgens, Gangopadhyaya, Garrett, Shartzer, Simpson, Wang, Favreault, and Arnos of the Urban Institute (Urban) in many ways.43 Based on Urban’s estimates, we believe these policies would cost $1.6 trillion over a decade under our central estimate and between $1.4 trillion and $1.8 trillion in our low- and high-cost scenarios. This is consistent with the campaign’s estimate of $1.5 trillion.44"

is the 8.5 cap on all insurance costs or only on premiums? deductibles would be on top of that or vice versa?

this was a detail i had not focused on before but it is interesting

"those with employer coverage could opt to instead use their employer’s contribution to buy into the public plan, and employers themselves could buy the plan on behalf of their workers"

this detail is worrying

"Finally, he would establish a process to retroactively enroll Americans without insurance in the public option and charge them a premium after the fact (presumably as part of tax filing)."

my main question about petes plan is how many people would be underinsured? i think that really is the important question. although i think medicare for all makes the most sense, in every way, i do think it would be acceptable to have a plan that makes sure no one is underinsured.

  

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kfine
Member since Jan 11th 2009
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Tue Feb-18-20 08:17 PM

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28. "Other thing is, I've been following these studies re: the healthcare "
In response to Reply # 20
Tue Feb-18-20 08:17 PM by kfine

          

debate and just want to point out that the $450B drop in NHE Yale/Galvani estimates is even more negligible than the estimated $2T drop in NHE the Mercatus/Blahous study came up with:
https://assets.ctfassets.net/4ubxbgy9463z/2Tg9oB55ICu2vtYBaKKcVr/d124e0eeb128ad3a8d8ab8a6ccae44c0/20191031_Medicare_for_All_Cost_Letter___Appendices_FINAL.pdf#page=5

... the study Bernie and his supporters have (either knowingly or unknowingly) been referencing for months as evidence his single-payer proposal will be cheaper for taxpayers compared to the status quo/other approaches (it's not). The author/Blahous himself warns this is not an accurate take away msg:

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2018/aug/03/bernie-sanders/did-conservative-study-show-big-savings-bernie-san/

You and I have argued at length on here about how/whether it's misleading to portray NHE reduction as taxpayer savings:

https://board.okayplayer.com/okp.php?az=show_topic&forum=4&topic_id=13354635&mesg_id=13354635&listing_type=search#13357419

so I'm not actually interested in relitigating lol. But I know one rebuttal you've leaned on when we've argued is that focusing on the costs (or, as you said, "wonkery") of delivering care ignores moral considerations. The lives saved/life-years gained metrics used in this Yale/Galvani study you link remind me why I disagree with you so strongly on that.

Aside from the fact that $450B in economy-wide savings would be virtually imperceptible to lower- and middle-income taxpayers forced to pay an estimated X% more of their paycheck to foot the bill for Bernie's system, there are also very strong moral implications in severely reducing the quality of care. Health insurance coverage is only one component of health care access. Multiple studies have identified that provider rates would have to go way down for a single-payer system to save money whatsoever, even if just NHE. It's absurd to assume that significantly slashing the rates for every doctor, dentist, surgeon, etc in the US wouldn't cause major distortion in their participation moving forward.

Promising expanded benefits (eg. dental, vision) and then kneecapping the supply of doctors, dentists, surgeons, etc to meet sharply increased patient demand would just compromise access to timely healthcare in the US for *everyone* (except the folks who could afford private contracts with providers via a concierge model, which Bernie's bill explicitly allows for in Title III, S.303: https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-congress/senate-bill/1129/text#toc-id9284868594934585837028a98cfaec3b). All while charging everyone (making more than 29k) X% more of their earnings to help pay for it.

I just think there's a moral imperative for the numbers to make sense too, since this affects people actually being able to access providers and hospitals in a timely and susainable fashion


>Just thought these 2 important articles should be documented
>in the political discussion and didn't want to start a new
>thread.
>
>New Yale Study shows Medicare for All Would Save $450 Billion
>and Prevent 68,000 Deaths Every Year
>

  

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bentagain
Member since Mar 19th 2008
16595 posts
Wed Feb-19-20 07:58 AM

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30. "What are the other plans?"
In response to Reply # 28
Wed Feb-19-20 08:01 AM by bentagain

  

          

Last night, Bern presented his MCA strategy

1st year, lower the age from 65 to 55
2nd year, 45
3rd year, 35
Year 4, errybody

The cost is 4% for those earning > $29K

I didn’t hear a plan from Buttigieg, just an idea

He’s going to offer a plan that will force private insurance to offer better coverage in order to compete

Sounded similar to...I know more about healthcare than anyone...we’re going to offer a plan...the best plan...it’s going to be YUGE! LOL

I know what Medicare is, so I know what mca is going to be

I didn’t actually hear a plan from Pete.

What is also being overlooked in the mca plan, in addition to the 4% being less than what we spend on healthcare now

Is that it removes our employers from the equation

Wages should go up, as employers will be saving the money they would have spent covering employees...right...?

---------------------------------------------------------------

If you can't understand it without an explanation

you can't understand it with an explanation

  

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kfine
Member since Jan 11th 2009
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Mon Feb-24-20 06:02 PM

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96. "Ummm, on his website looks like a 7-pronged strategy:"
In response to Reply # 30


          


https://peteforamerica.com/a-new-era-for-health/

PART 1: Medicare for All Who Want It
PART 2: Improving Mental Health & Combating Addiction
PART 3: Securing a Healthy Future for Rural America
PART 4: Affordable Medicine for All
PART 5: A Women’s Health Agenda for the 21st Century
PART 6: Long-Term Care
PART 7: Health Equity & Justice (Disparities Focus)

It's been a while since I read through some of the papers and not sure if you were genuinely curious lol, but looks like they put links to all the various plans on one landing page which I hadn't seen yet..


>
>The cost is 4% for those earning > $29K
>

Most studies aren't supporting this, more like at least 15%-20%
You could check out #94 if you're actually interested in this, I listed the estimate tax rates I've seen so far and links to the studies

>
>I know what Medicare is, so I know what mca is going to be
>

There's a significant differences between Medicare and Bernie's plan, tho.. they're not interchangeable at all. For starters, Medicare is a mixed-payer system (v. Bernie's proposal of single-payer), beneficiaries still pay co-pays etc and he is proposing way more benefits (eg. dental, vision, etc) that aren't currently offered as part of Medicare (beneficiaries usually have to sign up for private supplementary plans for such coverage).

  

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mista k5
Member since Feb 01st 2006
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Wed Feb-19-20 10:24 AM

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34. "a couple of points"
In response to Reply # 28
Wed Feb-19-20 10:32 AM by mista k5

  

          

bernies claim that 32.6 trillion would be less than the "status quo" is correct, per the politifact link you sent. bernie isnt the one that chose that calculation, it was the media that ran with that figure saying it would be in addition to current spending. bernie was pointing out its 2 trillion less than if we keep the current system. if you use the other calculation that in 10 years medicare for all could cost 3.2 trillion more over 10 years then you have to assume there are no savings or benefits to be found in medicare for all.

while i would agree that you might not want to say m4a WOULD save 2 trillion it is possible that it might. if we use this study i guess we could go in the middle and say that it might cost 500 billion more over 10 years. considering all the benefits it doesnt seem like a bad investment.

the other point, arent most of the savings/reductions in payments due to cutting overhead? i understand that some doctors/nurses MIGHT get reduced payments but that isnt going to be the rule. what medicare for all is doing is eliminating the "waste" so that more/most of the money goes to actually providing health care and not on managing payments/collections.

  

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kfine
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Mon Feb-24-20 05:49 PM

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95. "Ugh. #94 lol"
In response to Reply # 34


          


I'm sure something in there can address what you've said here.

I'm logging off okp for today lol. See you next politics/healthcare post

>bernies claim that 32.6 trillion would be less than the
>"status quo" is correct, per the politifact link you sent.
>bernie isnt the one that chose that calculation, it was the
>media that ran with that figure saying it would be in addition
>to current spending. bernie was pointing out its 2 trillion
>less than if we keep the current system. if you use the other
>calculation that in 10 years medicare for all could cost 3.2
>trillion more over 10 years then you have to assume there are
>no savings or benefits to be found in medicare for all.
>
>while i would agree that you might not want to say m4a WOULD
>save 2 trillion it is possible that it might. if we use this
>study i guess we could go in the middle and say that it might
>cost 500 billion more over 10 years. considering all the
>benefits it doesnt seem like a bad investment.
>
>the other point, arent most of the savings/reductions in
>payments due to cutting overhead? i understand that some
>doctors/nurses MIGHT get reduced payments but that isnt going
>to be the rule. what medicare for all is doing is eliminating
>the "waste" so that more/most of the money goes to actually
>providing health care and not on managing
>payments/collections.
>
>

  

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reaction
Member since Aug 09th 2019
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Wed Feb-19-20 11:03 AM

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37. "Pete Buttigieg’s Health Care Plan Is A Joke"
In response to Reply # 28


          

https://www.peoplespolicyproject.org/2020/02/10/pete-buttigiegs-health-care-plan-is-a-joke/

Jeff Stein at the Washington Post got to the bottom of this question in December and reported that it is the latter: the Obamacare mandate on steroids. Under Buttigieg’s plan, rather than paying a $695 fine at the end of the year if you are uninsured (as in the now-repealed Obamacare mandate), you could pay a fine as high as $7,000. This sort of lump sum shock is going to wreck most of the households hit with it and be even more of a political disaster than the much more modest Obamacare fine, which was itself a bit of a political disaster.

Buttigieg’s own effort to defend his plan is to make big-number claims about how Medicare for All will cost $30 trillion or $50 trillion. The suggestion of these attacks on M4A is that his plan is much cheaper. But in fact, it is clearly more expensive, at least when we look at what matters: total national health expenditures.

I don't want to really discuss this with you either, last month you went full mask off and were spewing some vitriolic hate towards Bernie's movement so I know none of these arguments are in good faith. One example is reply #170 here:

https://board.okayplayer.com/okp.php?az=show_topic&forum=4&topic_id=13344033&mesg_id=13344033&listing_type=search#13361750

  

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kfine
Member since Jan 11th 2009
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Mon Feb-24-20 05:46 PM

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94. "I really had to come back to this when I had time. Wow."
In response to Reply # 37


          


You've outdone yourself, lol.


>https://www.peoplespolicyproject.org/2020/02/10/pete-buttigiegs-health-care-plan-is-a-joke/
>
>Jeff Stein at the Washington Post got to the bottom of this
>question in December and reported that it is the latter: the
>Obamacare mandate on steroids. Under Buttigieg’s plan,
>rather than paying a $695 fine at the end of the year if you
>are uninsured (as in the now-repealed Obamacare mandate), you
>could pay a fine as high as $7,000. This sort of lump sum
>shock is going to wreck most of the households hit with it and
>be even more of a political disaster than the much more modest
>Obamacare fine, which was itself a bit of a political
>disaster.
>


This is like, all a lie.

The public "option" isn't a "mandate" tho, and there's no fines. Retroactive enrollment is a completely different mechanism than an individual mandate, no? Think about it:

*(ACA)Individual Mandate: The law "mandated" people to enroll in some form of health insurance coverage, whether employer-sponsored or off the exchanges, or face penalty. Since it's the modern age (lol), the feds were able to determine who lacked coverage pretty damn easily and levy the fine.

*(Buttigieg Public Option) Continuous Auto-enrollment, Retroactive Enrollment + Backstop fund: People who're without health insurance coverage by choice (unlikely) or indigent folks lacking health insurance coverage because they're off-grid or whatever can receive care and/or enroll at point-of-care.

IIRC, the ACA individual mandate basically tried making it *illegal* to go without health insurance coverage. Pete's public option contains no such provision (Ctrl-F the plan for yourself: https://storage.googleapis.com/pfa-webapp/documents/MFAWWI_white_paper_FINAL.pdf ... Are the words "mandate", "penalty", etc. even in the document??).

I mean, look at the FPL distribution of the uninsured population: https://www.kff.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/8848-06-figure-5.png. About ~half of this population would be Medicaid eligible in states that expanded it (https://www.kff.org/health-reform/state-indicator/medicaid-income-eligibility-limits-for-adults-as-a-percent-of-the-federal-poverty-level/), meaning they would qualify for no co-insurance/free coverage under Pete's public option. Folks caught in non-expansion states, who "would" have been eligible had their state expanded Medicaid, qualify for no co-insurance/free coverage too.

ONLY people eligible for free-coverage i.e. at/below the Medicaid FPL would be auto-enrolled. Retroactive enrollment would ONLY occur if for whatever reason somebody's uninsured by choice or off-grid (eg. homeless) but turned up somewhere needing care. The backstop fund incentivizes providers to treat these people and prevents them from going uncompensated in doing so. There's NO avenue to levy a fine or penalty on a patient whatsoever in this framework. And EVEN if there was, half the uninsured qualify for free coverage so what's X% of zero?? Bruenig's claim doesn't make any sense.


>Buttigieg’s own effort to defend his plan is to make
>big-number claims about how Medicare for All will cost $30
>trillion or $50 trillion. The suggestion of these attacks on
>M4A is that his plan is much cheaper. But in fact, it is
>clearly more expensive, at least when we look at what matters:
>total national health expenditures.
>


First of all, those $30T+ cost estimates for Bernie's single-payer system are widely accessible, empirical, and shockingly robust across multiple studies, methods, and partisan orientations. Bernie himself has admitted those $30T+ cost estimates multiple times:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_uy8D7MXSYo
https://twitter.com/60Minutes/status/1231734509835554820

And, again, we've argued at length about this federal spending v. NHE thing. Total NHE is like... an estimate of the US aggregate "healthcare economy" (https://www.cms.gov/Research-Statistics-Data-and-Systems/Statistics-Trends-and-Reports/NationalHealthExpendData/Downloads/NHE-Deflator.pdf). There's all sorts of stuff in there not directly related to care provision like R&D, investments, construction, manufacturing/production (eg. medical equipment); federal healthcare spending only accounts for one component of it. But federal spending is the far more relevant metric to compare different healthcare proposals/bills for many reasons, incl. that its much easier to standardize and relates directly to gov revenue required to fund a specific plan (eg. incl. any necessary TAX REVENUE). It's entirely possible the US "healthcare economy" could "contract" (i.e. reduced NHE) while federal spending on healthcare dramatically increases, or vice versa (eg. cuts to federal healthcare spending despite skyrocketing utilization and prices in medical goods + services, which both drive NHE growth). But my main issue with you guys is how you always either conflate them, or present *insert federal spending estimate* as less than *insert status quo NHE estimate*. A federal spending increase needs to be compared to your baseline federal spending to make sense. Same with NHE (https://www.urban.org/urban-wire/dont-confuse-changes-federal-health-spending-national-health-spending).

Anyway: nowhere, noway, nohow is Bernie's single-payer healthcare proposal less expensive than Pete's or any other candidate. Stop blatantly lying lol. It's been deemed more expensive for the US by like every reputable independent quantitative analysis so far. Your shameless disinfo just inspired me to do a whole ass lit review in this post lol. I don't even care if you don't see this either, this is to stand up for the truth. I just can't with the way yall straight up lie on this issue. Hopefully I pull the right numbers bc I'm rushing, but I'll share the links in case I mess up. Studies I can remember reading off top:


STUDIES COMPARING CANDIDATES' PLANS (*laying out Bernie v. Pete given the article you linked):

(non-partisan) URBAN INSTITUTE, 2019
=====================================

ESTIMATED FEDERAL SPENDING CHANGE OVER 10y
Bernie's Single-Payer............................+$28.4T
Pete's Public Option..............................+$1.2T

ESTIMATED NHE CHANGE OVER 10y
Bernie's Single-Payer.............................+$7.2T
Pete's Public Option..............................-$0.2T


Links:
(Bernie's Single-Payer slide) https://www.commonwealthfund.org/sites/default/files/2019-10/Blumberg_comparing_reform_options_building_ACA_single_payer_db.pdf#page=11
(Pete's Public Option slide) https://www.commonwealthfund.org/sites/default/files/2019-10/Blumberg_comparing_reform_options_building_ACA_single_payer_db.pdf#page=8
(Full Analysis) https://urban.org/research/publication/incremental-comprehensive-health-reform-how-various-reform-options-compare-coverage-and-costs



(non-partisan) CRFB, 2020
=========================

ESTIMATED FEDERAL SPENDING CHANGE OVER 10y
Bernie's Single-Payer......................+$30.6T
Pete's Public Option........................+$2.8T

ESTIMATED NHE CHANGE OVER 10y
Bernie's Single-Payer........................+6% (around +$3T)
Pete's Public Option.........................-2% (around -$1T)

Links:
(Federal Spending figure) http://www.wdw.crfb.org/sites/default/files/fig%202%20costs%20vs%20offsets.JPG
(NHE figure) http://www.wdw.crfb.org/sites/default/files/fig%204%20change%20in%20nhe%20comparison.JPG
(Full analysis) http://www.wdw.crfb.org/sites/default/files/fig%202%20costs%20vs%20offsets.JPG



STUDIES COMPARING 2019 PROPOSAL (Long-Term Care + Support Services incl.) v. CURRENT LAW/STATUS QUO:


ESTIMATED FEDERAL SPENDING CHANGE OVER 10y
(progressive) Hopbrook Institute-UMass/Friedman Study, 2019......+$19T
(non-partisan) Rand Study, 2019...................................+$31T
(non-partisan) Urban Institute Study, 2019........................+$28.4T
(conservative) Heritage Foundation Study, 2019....................+$23.9T
(non-partisan) Committee for Resp Fed Budget, 2020................+$30.6T
(Author is Sanders Advisor) Yale/Galvani Study, 2020...............+$7.73T

ESTIMATED NHE CHANGE OVER 10y
(progressive) Hopbrook Institute-UMass/Friedman Study, 2019......-$13.0T
(non-partisan) Rand Study, 2019....................................+$5.1T
(non-partisan) Urban Institute Study, 2019.........................+$7.2T
(conservative) Heritage Foundation Study, 2019......................Not Analysed
(non-partisan) Committee for Resp Fed Budget, 2020.................+6% (~$3T)
(Author is Sanders Advisor) Yale/Galvani Study, 2020..............-$4.5T (~450B x 10y)



STUDIES COMPARING OLD SANDERS SINGLE-PAYER PROPOSALS (no Long-Term Care + Support Services incl.) v. THEN LAW/STATUS QUO:

ESTIMATED FEDERAL SPENDING CHANGE OVER 10y
(conservative) Mercatus/Blahous Study, 2018........................+$32.6T
(Fmr Clinton Appointee on Healthcare) Emory/Thorpe Study,2016......+$25T
(progressive) PERI-UMass/Pollin Study,2018.........................+$29.3T

ESTIMATED NHE CHANGE OVER 10y
(conservative) Mercatus/Blahous Study, 2018.........................-$2.0T
(Fmr Clinton Appointee on Healthcare) Emory/Thorpe Study,2016.......-$4.0T
(progressive) PERI-UMass/Pollin Study, 2018.........................-$5.1T (*uses HCE not NHE, but incl. since HCE is large proportion of NHE)



STUDIES ESTIMATING BURDEN ON US TAXPAYERS UNDER BERNIE'S SINGLE-PAYER PLANS v. CURRENT LAW/STATUS QUO


ESTIMATED TAX HIKE
(Fmr Clinton Appointee on Healthcare) Emory/Thorpe Study, 2016.........+20%
(conservative) Heritage Foundation Study, 2019.........................+20%
(Author is Sanders Advisor) Yale/Galvani Study, 2020...................+15% (*10% Payroll tax + 5% Income tax)

ESTIMATED PCT OF US HOUSEHOLDS w/ NET INCR. HEALTH SPENDING
(Fmr Clinton Appointee on Healthcare) Emory/Thorpe Study, 2016............70%
(conservative) Heritage Foundation Study, 2019..........................65.5%
(Author is Sanders Advisor) Yale/Galvani Study, 2020.............Not Analyzed?



Links:
(conservative) Mercatus/Blahous Study, 2018
www.mercatus.org/system/files/blahous-costs-medicare-mercatus-working-paper-v1_1.pdf#page=7

(progressive) Hopbrook Institute-UMass/Friedman Study, 2019
https://www.hopbrook-institute.org/single-post/2019/03/29/Working-Paper-No-2-Yes-We-Can-Have-Improved-Medicare-for-All

(non-partisan) Rand Study, 2019
https://rand.org/pubs/research_reports/RR3106.html

(non-partisan) Urban Institute Study, 2019
https://urban.org/research/publication/incremental-comprehensive-health-reform-how-various-reform-options-compare-coverage-and-costs

(conservative) Heritage Foundation Study, 2019
https://heritage.org/health-care-reform/report/how-medicare-all-harms-working-americans

(non-partisan) Committee for Resp Fed Budget, 2020
https://crfb.org/papers/primary-care-estimating-leading-democratic-candidates-health-plans

(Sanders-Affiliated Author) Yale/Galvani Study, 2020
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(19)33019-3/fulltext
*non-paywall/ad-block friendly link: https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/healthcare/here-s-that-medicare-for-all-study-bernie-sanders-keeps-bringing-up/ar-BB10ctVo

(Author Clinton Admin Appointee on Healthcr) Emory/Thorpe Study,2016
https://www.healthcare-now.org/296831690-Kenneth-Thorpe-s-analysis-of-Bernie-Sanders-s-single-payer-proposal.pdf

(Progressive) PERI-UMass Study
https://www.peri.umass.edu/publication/item/1127-economic-analysis-of-medicare-for-all




>I don't want to really discuss this with you either, last
>month you went full mask off and were spewing some vitriolic
>hate towards Bernie's movement so I know none of these
>arguments are in good faith. One example is reply #170 here:
>
>https://board.okayplayer.com/okp.php?az=show_topic&forum=4&topic_id=13344033&mesg_id=13344033&listing_type=search#13361750


Lol what mask? What hate? Feel free to disprove anything I said.

  

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reaction
Member since Aug 09th 2019
315 posts
Tue Feb-25-20 10:48 AM

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100. "How many people died while you were writing that"
In response to Reply # 94


          

from lack of health insurance. The money is there, the priorities aren't. That's the bottom line. I'll leave you to the bean counting. M4A has cost controls, Pete's vague, PowerPoint (TM Warren) plan doesn't and private insurance would continue going up under that "plan." When the US spends twice per capita on healthcare than anywhere else the profit motive MUST be taken out before the system is moral. It will save money in the end but that isn't even the real point. In the alternate universe where Pete ever became President it's all moot because he wouldn't even try to implement it. Buttigieg's healthcare plan was never intended as a real plan, it was just intended to hurt Medicare For All. (TM Pete's donors)

  

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kfine
Member since Jan 11th 2009
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Tue Feb-25-20 02:11 PM

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107. "How many people would die from untimely access to care due to "
In response to Reply # 100


          


provider shortages, reduced bed availability, extended wait times, and facility closures in a country of 330M+ people? As VA committee chairman, Bernie must have an idea since he should have received data on those poor veterans dying/committing suicide when such issues peaked during his oversight of the VAs single-payer system.

Theres' controls galore in Pete's public option, which you would know if you bothered to educate yourself on other proposals before tearing them down just because they're not Bernie's.

You also have no high ground whatsoever to come for other candidates' commitment or implementation when Bernie has neither partisan or bi-partisan majority support for his plan in Congress as a sitting senator.

Pete's public option is fully paid for, ready to legislate/meets PAYGO deficit-control requirements, and supported by almost 15% more Americans than single-payer incl stronger support among Independents and repubs which Dems need to win elections or pass legislation (https://www.kff.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/9394-Figure-3.png). He's good.

Instead of destroying Bernie's political capital by shitting on Dems, data, and concerns from the general public, why don't yall do something productive with your energy like helping him expand support for his bill in Congress lol


>from lack of health insurance. The money is there, the
>priorities aren't. That's the bottom line. I'll leave you to
>the bean counting. M4A has cost controls, Pete's vague,
>PowerPoint (TM Warren) plan doesn't and private insurance
>would continue going up under that "plan." When the US spends
>twice per capita on healthcare than anywhere else the profit
>motive MUST be taken out before the system is moral. It will
>save money in the end but that isn't even the real point. In
>the alternate universe where Pete ever became President it's
>all moot because he wouldn't even try to implement it.
>Buttigieg's healthcare plan was never intended as a real plan,
>it was just intended to hurt Medicare For All. (TM Pete's
>donors)

  

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fif
Member since Feb 23rd 2004
1998 posts
Tue Feb-18-20 11:34 PM

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29. "1st time voter Boots Riley"
In response to Reply # 0


          

weighs in:

https://mobile.twitter.com/BootsRiley/status/1229938806150717440

"I have never voted for a candidate in my life.

But I will be voting for Bernie Sanders in the democratic primary and the general election. If I’m doing that, there are probably tens of millions in that same position.
Let me explain why I’m doing this now:"



  

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mista k5
Member since Feb 01st 2006
16404 posts
Wed Feb-19-20 10:08 AM

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31. "thats interesting"
In response to Reply # 29


  

          

wish i could see twitter lol

definitely a guy i didnt think would vote.

  

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reaction
Member since Aug 09th 2019
315 posts
Wed Feb-19-20 04:29 PM

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38. "RE: thats interesting"
In response to Reply # 31


          

>wish i could see twitter lol

It's definitely worth reading the whole thread, this link should work https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1229938806150717440.html

  

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mista k5
Member since Feb 01st 2006
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39. "dope, thanks"
In response to Reply # 38


  

          

  

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Rjcc
Charter member
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Wed Feb-19-20 10:18 AM

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33. "wait, Andrew Yang dropped out of the race"
In response to Reply # 0


          

and immediately took a job that would give him money and tons of airtime to pump up his nonexistent credentials?

WHO COULD'VE GUESSED


(anyone, literally anyone could've seen this coming)

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

  

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Adwhizz
Member since Nov 12th 2003
40918 posts
Wed Feb-19-20 10:58 AM

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36. "Booo him? "
In response to Reply # 33


  

          

R.I.P. Loud But Wrong Guy
Dec 29th 2009 - Dec 17th 2017

  

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T Reynolds
Member since Apr 16th 2007
42754 posts
Fri Feb-21-20 10:40 AM

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44. "Van Jones still has the hots for him at least"
In response to Reply # 33


  

          

https://i.redd.it/66v5126j80i41.jpg

  

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Rjcc
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97. "now bernie fans love cnn/van jones"
In response to Reply # 44


          

which I find hilarious because it just highlights how this is all based on who agrees with them right now.


they don't even remember not liking van

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

  

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mista k5
Member since Feb 01st 2006
16404 posts
Wed Feb-19-20 06:05 PM

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40. "Debate Check In"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

i guess i could spend my time in worse ways, definitely better ways but worse ways too.

what are the odds this is the red wedding?

  

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Lurkmode
Member since May 07th 2011
5163 posts
Wed Feb-19-20 08:51 PM

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41. "Who is Robb Stark ?"
In response to Reply # 40


  

          

and who is Walder Frey ?

---------------------------
Signature

  

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mista k5
Member since Feb 01st 2006
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42. "http://www.mayopete.io/"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

http://www.mayopete.io/

  

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Brew
Member since Nov 23rd 2002
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45. "LOL"
In response to Reply # 42


          

----------------------------------------

"Fuck aliens." © WarriorPoet415

  

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Vex_id
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"All signs point to a very high turnout in the Nevada Caucus "


          

There have already been ~70k early votes cast in Nevada.

-->

  

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Vex_id
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43. "All signs point to a very high turnout in the Nevada Caucus "
In response to Reply # 0


          

There have already been ~70k early votes cast in Nevada.

-->

  

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bentagain
Member since Mar 19th 2008
16595 posts
Sat Feb-22-20 11:56 AM

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46. "Worth the Price? Doc about Biden's role in Iraq War (link)"
In response to Reply # 0
Sat Feb-22-20 11:57 AM by bentagain

  

          

https://youtu.be/vhcuei8_UJM

While the Washington Post is publishing stories tying Russian disinformation activities to the Bern campaign the day before the primary

Not only has this doc gone completely overlooked

But Biden has not been held accountable for the role he played in pushing us into the Iraq War

Maybe if the debate didn't turn into Bloomberg day...this could have been discussed.

---------------------------------------------------------------

If you can't understand it without an explanation

you can't understand it with an explanation

  

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blkprinceMD05
Member since Nov 29th 2004
41323 posts
Sat Feb-22-20 01:07 PM

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47. "My girl Liz needs to finish top 3 (hoping for second), hoping as many "
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

NVers vote today as voted early (before her EPIC performance at the debate)

Kloby will prolly try to stay in until Super Tuesday but NV nor SC will not be good for her

In fact I don’t think any will drop until after Super Tuesday, even tulsi who has ZERO chance of being the nom.

I listened to this really inspiring account (in Spanish!) of a first time caucus goer, I think this is the year Latino voters (outside of the conservative ones in Florida) will be really activated as block and I’m proud that Democrats and this country as a whole has politically and civically engaged ppl of all races and backgrounds

Go Blue!

prototype

stand ur ground, believe in urself,
believe in love, prepare urself for love, remove the negativity from ur life, and accept the love u kno u deserve

  

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blkprinceMD05
Member since Nov 29th 2004
41323 posts
Sat Feb-22-20 01:28 PM

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48. "Good write up/article from nytimes, showing how much each spent "
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

And days spent in Nevada

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/02/21/us/politics/2020-nevada-caucus-date-time.html?action=click&module=Top%20Stories&pgtype=Homepage

prototype

stand ur ground, believe in urself,
believe in love, prepare urself for love, remove the negativity from ur life, and accept the love u kno u deserve

  

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bignick
Charter member
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49. "Bernard killing this shit. "
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

His campaign is light years ahead of the others.

  

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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
79338 posts
Sat Feb-22-20 05:02 PM

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50. "He has the Latino vote on lock in Nevada"
In response to Reply # 49


          

If this continues in other states it’s a wrap.

Really hope Black folk get off that Bloomberg and Biden hype train

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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Vex_id
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51. "This isn’t unique to Nevada "
In response to Reply # 50


          

He is dominating with the Latinx vote nationwide.

-->

  

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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
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52. "I still want to see it play out before waving the victory flag"
In response to Reply # 51


          

but hearing that older Latino voters are buying in is refreshing.

Hope older Black voters get on the bus.

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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jane eyre
Member since Jan 16th 2007
715 posts
Sat Feb-22-20 07:06 PM

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53. "Since Iowa"
In response to Reply # 0


          

I have wished that the middle cluster of candidates to come to some agreement and duke it out for who needs to drop out. Have some decency. Put country before grandiose ego and make this a 2 or maybe 3 person race.

Bernie & _________. Or Bernie & ____________ & _________________.

All of the candidates who drop out should endorse Bernie or the decided moderate candidate.

It's a wish.

I want to vote for a winner. I don't think Bernie can win. I'd be all for Bernie, even considering the reasons I don't support him, if I thought he could win.

Send. A. Winner. Out. To. The. People. I just want *one* person.

I want this cluster-f of a moderate crew to stop playing and get serious and real. Trump for another four years is nothing to play with.

I question if the Democrats understand that.

  

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Lurkmode
Member since May 07th 2011
5163 posts
Sat Feb-22-20 07:12 PM

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54. "Why can't Bernie win ? "
In response to Reply # 53


  

          

>I have wished that the middle cluster of candidates to come
>to some agreement and duke it out for who needs to drop out.
>Have some decency. Put country before grandiose ego and make
>this a 2 or maybe 3 person race.
>
>Bernie & _________. Or Bernie & ____________ &
>_________________.
>
>All of the candidates who drop out should endorse Bernie or
>the decided moderate candidate.
>
>It's a wish.
>
>I want to vote for a winner. I don't think Bernie can win. I'd
>be all for Bernie, even considering the reasons I don't
>support him, if I thought he could win.
>
>Send. A. Winner. Out. To. The. People. I just want *one*
>person.
>
>I want this cluster-f of a moderate crew to stop playing and
>get serious and real. Trump for another four years is nothing
>to play with.
>
>I question if the Democrats understand that.


and if Bernie can't win how can the candidates losing to him win ?

---------------------------
Signature

  

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jane eyre
Member since Jan 16th 2007
715 posts
Sat Feb-22-20 07:42 PM

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56. "RE: Why can't Bernie win ? "
In response to Reply # 54


          

I just don't see that Bernie's progressive platform will gain traction against a red leaning electoral college that seems to like Trump's policies and economy. I also think foreign interference is a powerful factor.

I think it's entirely possible Trump could gain more electoral votes.

I think there are *many* people in this country who would rather vote for Trump than a Democratic Socialist who wants people to have free things.

Do I agree with that characterization of Bernie? Absolutely not.

However, I think Bernie will be a polarizing referendum on the *Democratic party* that has been under fire for the last for years in conservative quarters of the country. All of this as Trump's favorability is *rising* in the aftermath of impeachment!!

If someone can show me the Bernie path to victory, I'm open to hearing it.

A more moderate, status quo, candidate gives Trump tougher competition. Republicans and Independents, like Clint Eastwood, who today, expressed a desire for an alternative *can* be swayed if given the right candidate packaging. Bernie is a horror show for those people.

I think the candidate field, as is, is a lot like 2016.

Bernie, like Trump, has a dedicated base. Like Trump, he may not find a challenger because the moderates are playing politics that keep an alternative candidate vote split. If the moderate Dems consolidate their vote block by dropping out, then there may be more of a race.

Dems like me might vote for whoever the nominee is, but we shouldn't assume that the rest of the electorate is that through with Trump to follow that same logic.

  

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bignick
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Sat Feb-22-20 07:53 PM

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58. "To think this ignores MOUNDS of data. "
In response to Reply # 56


  

          

  

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Vex_id
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Sat Feb-22-20 07:57 PM

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59. "yea - I was hoping for some actual empirical-based argument"
In response to Reply # 58


          

based on sound data and media literacy.

-->

  

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Dr Claw
Member since Jun 25th 2003
132212 posts
Sun Feb-23-20 12:35 AM

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69. "I can't see him losing any state Hillary actually won"
In response to Reply # 58


  

          

but I can see him winning those and 3 of those that would have taken her right to 270.

and we know why she jobbed those out and it AIN'T RUSSIA.

Bernie will be fine. He has people ready to vote for him. Can you say the same for anyone else?

The Democratic Party seems to be more content with Donald Trump in power than to be in power themselves with Bernie Sanders.

Sounds like they've been drinking out of the same water fountain.

  

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PimpTrickGangstaClik
Member since Oct 06th 2005
15893 posts
Sat Feb-22-20 08:20 PM

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61. "Sanders is best positioned to gain traction in a red leaning electoral m..."
In response to Reply # 56
Sat Feb-22-20 08:21 PM by PimpTrickGangstaClik

          

As backwards as that sounds

There are a whole bunch of people in those states like Michigan, Wisconsin, Pennsylvania that typically don't vote. They don't care about politics. Until someone comes in and starts talking directly to them. Trump did that in 2016. Bernie is doing that now.

How are you going to win those people over with a candidate that is talking about "let's be moderate. Let's go back to business as usual. Let's not rock the boat"?

I think Sanders has a better chance of getting those key voters than a Biden or buttigieg. And there is enough anti Trump sentiment in the Democratic party that Sanders won't turn off too many people that much.




_______________________________________

  

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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
79338 posts
Sat Feb-22-20 08:26 PM

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62. "Americans are extremely scared of change... "
In response to Reply # 61


          

Wealth gap is huge and folks are afraid of politicians who want to close the gap.

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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bignick
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Sat Feb-22-20 08:46 PM

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68. "This just isn’t true. "
In response to Reply # 62


  

          

  

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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
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72. "Then why are so many voters still thinking Bernie can’t win? "
In response to Reply # 68


          

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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bignick
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73. "Because they don't pay attention to the facts. "
In response to Reply # 72


  

          

These are the same people who were rolling with the Bernie Bro myth after it had already been exposed.

  

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Lurkmode
Member since May 07th 2011
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74. "Bernie Bro is a myth ?"
In response to Reply # 73


  

          


smh

---------------------------
Signature

  

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blkprinceMD05
Member since Nov 29th 2004
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76. "It’s legit scary how nutz some of these folks are "
In response to Reply # 74


  

          

*Deep sigh* this is gonna be a long nine months

prototype

stand ur ground, believe in urself,
believe in love, prepare urself for love, remove the negativity from ur life, and accept the love u kno u deserve

  

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Vex_id
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77. "A Bernie "bro" is likely to be a woman and/or a POC"
In response to Reply # 74


          

Women under 45 make up a larger share of Bernie Sanders’ base than do men in their same age group. (Source: Economist)

Also - Sanders has the lowest percentage of white support out of all the top-tier candidates - easily boasting the most diverse and intersectional coalition out of the entire field.

So if by Bernie "bros" you're referring to an intersectional sense of solidarity - then sure.

-->

  

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bignick
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79. "They've decided that it's true and they don't care about the reality "
In response to Reply # 77


  

          

  

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bignick
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78. "Yes, he has the most diverse base by a mile. "
In response to Reply # 74


  

          

Again, all you guys have to do is pay attention to the actual facts.

  

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Lurkmode
Member since May 07th 2011
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Sat Feb-22-20 08:46 PM

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67. "Interesting"
In response to Reply # 56


  

          

>I just don't see that Bernie's progressive platform will gain
>traction against a red leaning electoral college that seems to
>like Trump's policies and economy. I also think foreign
>interference is a powerful factor.
>
>I think it's entirely possible Trump could gain more electoral
>votes.


Yeah that's going to be hard. People in that area still support Trump when farm bankruptcy is up and the tariffs hurt them.

>I think there are *many* people in this country who would
>rather vote for Trump than a Democratic Socialist who wants
>people to have free things.
>
>Do I agree with that characterization of Bernie? Absolutely
>not.
>
>However, I think Bernie will be a polarizing referendum on the
>*Democratic party* that has been under fire for the last for
>years in conservative quarters of the country. All of this as
>Trump's favorability is *rising* in the aftermath of
>impeachment!!
>

That label plus the raising taxes rhetoric will give Bernie a fight he has to win.

>If someone can show me the Bernie path to victory, I'm open to
>hearing it.
>

I think his path is some crossing over and a big turnout.

>A more moderate, status quo, candidate gives Trump tougher
>competition. Republicans and Independents, like Clint
>Eastwood, who today, expressed a desire for an alternative
>*can* be swayed if given the right candidate packaging. Bernie
>is a horror show for those people.
>

Will a status quo fire up the base ?

>I think the candidate field, as is, is a lot like 2016.
>
>Bernie, like Trump, has a dedicated base. Like Trump, he may
>not find a challenger because the moderates are playing
>politics that keep an alternative candidate vote split. If the
>moderate Dems consolidate their vote block by dropping out,
>then there may be more of a race.
>

Something should happen after Super Tuesday.

>Dems like me might vote for whoever the nominee is, but we
>shouldn't assume that the rest of the electorate is that
>through with Trump to follow that same logic.
>

True but Biden, Bloomberg, Mayor Pete and Amy is not a better choice.

---------------------------
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Vex_id
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55. "RE: Since Iowa"
In response to Reply # 53


          

Who do you think is the strongest candidate to defeat Trump - and why?

  

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jane eyre
Member since Jan 16th 2007
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60. "Good question."
In response to Reply # 55


          

Buttigieg
Bloomberg
Biden (even with his very poor performance).

I don't care much about the "moderate's" policy. I care about the progressive Warren/Sanders policy positions because they create problems for viability in the general. For the life of me, I didn't get why Warren kept going on and on about some of her positions especially because I think she's the strongest candidate.

I just want a win.

  

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Vex_id
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64. "Bloomberg?"
In response to Reply # 60


          

What is that based on? Buttigieg? Same question.

I think there (was) a viable case for Biden - but as it turns out he's not able to bring out the coalition he promised.

The conventional thinking among Democratic circles (which you seem to subscribe to) was that the way to win is to appeal heavily to center-right voters. That's outdated thinking. The recipe is to bring out young/new voters - and disaffected voters (which is what Obama was able to achieve).

Millennials now make up more of the electorate than Boomers - and bringing them out in massive numbers should be the focus instead of endlessly trying to court voters who are likely to vote "R" at the end of the day.

Clinton/Kaine was this moderate recipe you speak of -- it lost. We shouldn't be making our decisions based on who Clint Eastwood is voting for - we should be making it more based on who young, diverse segments of the electorate are voting for.

-->

  

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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
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65. "Those dudes ain’t winning "
In response to Reply # 60


          

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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Dr Claw
Member since Jun 25th 2003
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70. "Bloomberg's on the ballot I'm skipping it."
In response to Reply # 60


  

          

and I'm sure many will follow.

Maybe the mythical Republican swing voter will vote for him, but I can not do so in good conscience. It sets a horrible precedent, especially following Donald Trump.

  

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bignick
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71. "LOL. Bernie does better against Trump than Bloomberg and Pete"
In response to Reply # 60


  

          

Are you guys even trying to weigh any actual facts or no?

  

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kfine
Member since Jan 11th 2009
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84. "I think I know what you mean. "
In response to Reply # 60


          


Note: doesn't it feel like there's sub-primaries happening within the primary?? Like a left-wing primary is happening, a moderate/center-left primary is happening, and then the left-wing v. the moderates and center-left for the nom lol.

Anyway here's some counts I came across recently, maybe they'll interest you too:

Counties Won (swiped from a good twitter thread but didn't grab the link Everything looked legit when I cross-checked against wikipedia, ballotpedia, cnn, etc tho, but feel free to not trust these numbers lol)

NV
==
BS--10
PB---5
JB---0
AK---0
EW---0


NH
==
BS---7
PB---3
JB---0
AK---0
EW---0


IA (*excl. counties being reviewed)
==
PB--59
BS--20
JB---8
AK---5
EW---1


Pivot Counties won (i.e. Obama-->45 counties) as of today:
==================
PB--20
BS--10
JB---1
AK---2
EW---0


Total Counties won (broad geographic support as opposed to just urban)
==================
PB--67
BS--37
JB---8
AK---5
EW---1


My takeaways for the "left-wing primary":

*Bernie's won

*Warren BARELY won her only(!!) county, Johnson County, IA She beat Bernie by only 0.3

*I don't know if I see a path forward for Warren anymore Tragic. Still rooting for her tho. I think her trouble started when she mapped out her financing for single-payer (unlike Bernie, which was absolutely the ethical thing to do). Then, when she mapped out her transition/public option plan she lost the left-wing. Her spat with Bernie seems to have been the nail in the coffin; they became as hostile to/about her as they are to/about Pete now. I think all that might remain of her coalition is a smattering of young progressives that were exclusive fans of hers (not really Bernie's) from the beginning and some older folks who want to see a woman elected pres (is she losing some of them to Klob??)


My takeaways for the "moderate primary":

*Biden placed well in NV almost exclusively due to a large minority in Clark County, a county he didn't even win.

*Buttigieg is the only moderate/center-left candidate that has defeated Bernie in counties in every state so far

*Buttigieg has won the most pivot counties of any moderate or left-wing candidate in the race and has appealed to voters in twice the number of pivot counties that Bernie has


That's all I got lol. I really don't know what to trust in terms of how things will pan out. But I guess there's value in looking at what's already happened. We'll see I guess.



>I don't care much about the "moderate's" policy. I care about
>the progressive Warren/Sanders policy positions because they
>create problems for viability in the general. For the life of
>me, I didn't get why Warren kept going on and on about some of
>her positions especially because I think she's the strongest
>candidate.
>
>I just want a win.

  

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kfine
Member since Jan 11th 2009
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85. "And to your point about wanting a clear mod/ctr-left winner already:"
In response to Reply # 60


          


I'm starting to wonder if the Dems' obsession with level of minority support only makes sense when the base is cohesive. With how polarized things are right now, hinging the nomination on a lagging frontrunner's small minority base doesn't seem to be making any sense electorally. Like, great, Biden can be the President of older black people; he's in 4th place and has only won *1* county that flipped Obama to 45 in '16. Bernie has almost full support saturation with Generation Z? Ok great... except they're only 10% of the electorate https://www.pewsocialtrends.org/essay/an-early-look-at-the-2020-electorate/. And yes, Bernie's support among Latin Americans is incredible. But as the largest minority they're still only 13.3% of electorate https://www.pewsocialtrends.org/essay/an-early-look-at-the-2020-electorate/psdt_2020electorate-00/)

Furthermore, according to Pew Research, HRC had the black and latino vote on lock in '16 while 45 secured the vote of 15% more white Americans, PLUS she also had 3M+ more in the popular vote. How did that work out for the Dems? Gen Z + Millenials + Gen X outvoted Boomers by 2 percentage pts in '16 (https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/07/31/gen-zers-millennials-and-gen-xers-outvoted-boomers-and-older-generations-in-2016-election/ft_19-05-02_generationsvoteupdate_1/) How did that work out for the Dems? People say it's about turn out? Ok fine: Turnout for the "blue wave" 2018 midterms was the highest and most diverse of any midterm election in US history (https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/05/01/historic-highs-in-2018-voter-turnout-extended-across-racial-and-ethnic-groups/), and NOT ONE Our Revolution/Justice Dem/Bernie-backed candidate won their election.

So, I mean... I donno. It's great for the left-wing that Bernie was able to capitalize on his Latin American support in NV. The same will probably occur in CA and similarly diverse states. And it's great that Bernie (barely) won his neighboring state. But, like you, I'm still not convinced he has broad enough support (as opposed to enthusiastic tightly concentrated support) to flip the necessary number of pivot counties here - https://www.270towin.com/maps/2016-actual-electoral-map - to secure victory in a GE.

I mean this recent swing state polling out of quinnipiac that people have been talking about:

Favorability PA/MI/WI

Pete Buttigieg: +2/+2/-4
Bernie Sanders: -11/-5/-13
Elizabeth Warren: -15/-16/-17
Joe Biden: -8/-12/-20
Michael Bloomberg -19/-10/-20

Top Concern PA/MI/WI

Percentage saying Economy: 31/29/35
Percentage saying Healthcare: 27/26/24
Percentage saying Climate: 35/24/12

It's like the candidates polling highest nationally don't have the greatest favorability where it's needed. I mean the region's top concern is the ECONOMY, and 45 destroys every frontrunner in head-to-head there, but SURE... put up the socialist with the $90T platform or the 80yr olds (including a billionaire) with the worst favorability. The center-left dude literally from the region with the paid for platform that's actually winning pivot counties is too much of a *risk* smh.







>
>I just want a win.

  

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blkprinceMD05
Member since Nov 29th 2004
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Sat Feb-22-20 08:27 PM

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63. "I don’t think he can win either but this seems to be the cards "
In response to Reply # 53


  

          

We’re dealt. I didn’t think trump would win either tho so maybe. Their trajectories are basically the same, supper crowded field and the person getting 30 percent gets it.

I always said I wanted the process to play out though and he’s winning fair and square

He’s not unifying to me, hopefully he picks Stacy abrams or warren as his running mate and I can feel good about it.

Democrats will rally behind him, although his supporters wouldn’t have supported someone else, Democrats will support him becuz he will definitely be better than trump

prototype

stand ur ground, believe in urself,
believe in love, prepare urself for love, remove the negativity from ur life, and accept the love u kno u deserve

  

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Vex_id
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Sat Feb-22-20 07:48 PM

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57. "Thus far, Sanders is dominating both the pop vote *and* alignment"
In response to Reply # 0


          

proving that he is indeed the 2nd choice for a very significant amount of voters.

-->

  

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rawsouthpaw
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Sat Feb-22-20 08:44 PM

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66. "FEEL THE BERN🔥✊🏽🔥✊🏾🔥✊🏻🔥✊🏿🔥✊🏼"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

just got back from canvassing in east LA for bernie to this news

  

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KingMonte
Member since Feb 13th 2006
4675 posts
Sun Feb-23-20 07:28 AM

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75. "The Dems comparing Bernie to nazis today lost big in 2016"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

chris matthews and chuck toad breaking out nazi references for Bernie would be cute if the Democrat establishment had proven to be worth a damn. jason johnson saying the Black women that work with Bernie are broken, is a level of arrogance from a talking head that is simply trash rhetoric.
2016 was, for me, a shocking upset the Dem establishment fucked all the way up. For them to be acting like they know better now, only lets me know going with what they want is probably the wrong direction. Pundits have been making a fine living for the last 3 years blabbering the same shit everyone on fb and twitter are saying - no strategy other than undoing the apparent will of the people. Why would anyone listen to that?

As for Bernie's ability to get anything done, the problem with any effort is going to be the right wing. Did you see The Great Divide on Frontline? https://www.pbs.org/video/americas-great-divide-from-obama-to-trump-part-one-8wtjss/
It is made very clear that the right wing is only interested in stopping the left and ushering America into either thorough white supremacy or total destruction - but we already know white nationalism is a mental deficiency.

The right wing's white nationalism will tear down anything that doesn't advance their corrupt agenda. The greatest opponent of any potential social program will be right wing interference. What I need to hear from Bernie is that any program he puts forward will CAREFULLY VET anyone in a decision making position. No right wing operatives or lobbyists should be allowed anywhere near future social programs - the same way the left is kept away from lifetime judge appointments.

Any democrat suggesting Bernie is the end of the world - without mentioning the unethical, white supremacist, hypocritical right wing - is a worthless talking head. If they're not talking about advancing the clear and apparent will of the people, they're as much as an impediment to the electorate's desire as the electoral college.

  

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Dr Claw
Member since Jun 25th 2003
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Sun Feb-23-20 02:18 PM

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80. "I wish I could compile all the shit said about Obama in '08"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

because while I don't think Bernie has exactly the same appeal, it's similar

and it's backed by even more grassroots operations.

because some of these freak outs are crazy. I say this at someone freaking out about Bloomberg being an option for people (and how much he poured into Black political campaigns waiting for the moment to flip the switch).

But this red baiting?
This "we're gonna have communism" shit
I'm like, "have you niggas even seen Bernie Sanders?"

the likelihood of one presidential term flipping a capitalist economy all the way to actual communism is so minuscule it's HILARIOUS.

in a sane nation-state Bernie would be a somewhat ho-hum center-left moderate moralist. but we're in the United States.


the US is so beholden to its ruling class elite and pushed so far to the right, a 1960s style social safety net is seen as the end of the world.

should have seen the writing on the wall when M4A style healthcare plans started creeping over 50% approval from the public

Yes, I'm mad. Let's move on.

Jays | Cavs | Eagles | Sabres | Tarheels

PSN: Dr_Claw_77 | XBL: Dr Claw 077 | FB: drclaw077 | T: @drclaw77 | http://thepeoplesvault.wordpress.com

  

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Reeq
Member since Mar 11th 2013
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Sun Feb-23-20 06:39 PM

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81. "the fearmongering around bernie from people who know better"
In response to Reply # 80


          

is disgusting to watch.

tryna make dude seem like some rising socialist dictator and the left equivalent of trump (an actual fascist wannabe dictator).

i do wanna see a montage of the fearmongering around obama back in 2007/2008. i know people like james carville were calling him unelectable but im sure there was some wilder shit being thrown around by cable tv pundits.

the bernie campaign should put together that montage (along with a montage of republicans calling everything thats now popular 'socialism' like social security, medicare, etc).

i feel like if dems/media did a better job of giving historical context instead of sensationalizing everything in the moment like a paradigm shift...people would be a lot more knowledgeable about how the same groups of people have been running the same bad faith playbook for decades.

  

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kfine
Member since Jan 11th 2009
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Sun Feb-23-20 08:30 PM

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83. "Ok Reeq :/"
In response to Reply # 81


          


I usually enjoy reading everyone's takes on political stuff (especially yours), even if I disagree, but yall need to stop with this.

Since when is Bernie immune to criticism? He's not everyone's cup of tea. To those of us not enamored with him, or to those who have the misfortune of rooting for one of the competitors his base hates, yes his movement can come across like the left version of 45s. Eerily so.

Instead of scoffing at folks, don't you guys think this effect is something worth trying to understand if yall really want this man to win majority support?? The denial is almost as insufferable as the shade.

I get there's a cultural element to his appeal - i.e. it's "cool" to like Bernie (https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/03/socialism-and-young-socialists.html), the hipsters turned political and all that - but that doesn't make Bernie's numbers make sense. If some people (who should "know better") put in the effort to actually read through dude's policies, or read about his background, or just simply voice fair concerns about his path to victory (eg. Jane Eyre a few replies up) - it doesn't deserve a pile on, it's not "fearmongering", it's not "disgusting". It's debate.

I did read that some cable pundits were likening his NV win to the fall of France to the Nazis and perhaps *that* is taking it too far lol.

I do my research; I'm informed. I've probably combed through Bernie's platform more diligently than somebody who likes him.

But I'll be honest: the way Bernie is propped up like he's Jesus Christ 2.0? Even on okp? It makes me *more* steadfast in my criticisms of him and when defending those I think are better candidates. Multiply it by 100 everytime I read the seemingly endless attacks launched by Bernie staff/supporters/surrogates at folks I actually am rooting for. In fact it was precisely the endless attacks his staff/supporters/surrogates lauched towards other candidates/their supporters that expanded my hatred from his policies to his politics. I don't think I posted 1 time about Bernie one time in '16, even though I thought he was on some bullshit then too. Maybe its because I checked out after becoming disillusioned by HRC/the DNC.

Bernie staff/supporters/surrogates can't possibly expect to talk all the ignorant shit they do about other candidates and then have their dude escape scrutiny. It's entirely possible that Bernie is full of shit and could lose in Nov. As it is/was with any other candidates. But must that actually happen before it's no longer some super pearl-clutching statement??


>is disgusting to watch.
>
>tryna make dude seem like some rising socialist dictator and
>the left equivalent of trump (an actual fascist wannabe
>dictator).
>

  

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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
79338 posts
Mon Feb-24-20 06:13 AM

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86. "Huh? You pretty much nailed it with the Nazi comparison"
In response to Reply # 83


          

That shit and the communism knock are the examples that are too far gone. You can attack his policies all day and I wouldn’t give a damn.

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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kfine
Member since Jan 11th 2009
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Mon Feb-24-20 11:31 AM

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93. "Lol, right. I think we agree."
In response to Reply # 86


          


>That shit and the communism knock are the examples that are
>too far gone. You can attack his policies all day and I
>wouldn’t give a damn.
>

Yup that's where I'm at. I actually think that bullying people about who they like/support can have the opposite effect. But policies/politics are definitely fair game, and I could think of criticisms in those areas even when it comes to candidates I'm rooting for lol

  

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Dr Claw
Member since Jun 25th 2003
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Mon Feb-24-20 10:17 AM

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88. "there's fair criticism and then there's fearmongering"
In response to Reply # 83


  

          

like Bernie not being 100% plugged in, or rather... avoiding the racial component of many economic/political issues, criticizing him on that is OK. I (and others) said the same of Obama/defended Obama in that regard when it got ridiculous.

>Since when is Bernie immune to criticism? He's not everyone's
>cup of tea. To those of us not enamored with him, or to those
>who have the misfortune of rooting for one of the competitors
>his base hates, yes his movement can come across like the left
>version of 45s. Eerily so.

I disagree on the Trump comparisons except on the very thin-thread of how animated and legion-like they may be.

it's a difference between people wolfpacking over a social safety net and niggas wolfpacking over a border wall and imaginary "illegal rapists"

and lowkey, I see way too many people conflating the two.

>I did read that some cable pundits were likening his NV win to
>the fall of France to the Nazis and perhaps *that* is taking
>it too far lol.

and that's happening way too much. again, this was done with Obama. mostly to paint over him being black (which is what they wanted to fearmonger on but went the "he's a Marxist Socialist Communist who has DOMESTIC TERRORIST FRIENDS")

>But I'll be honest: the way Bernie is propped up like he's
>Jesus Christ 2.0? Even on okp? It makes me *more* steadfast in
>my criticisms of him and when defending those I think are
>better candidates. Multiply it by 100 everytime I read the
>seemingly endless attacks launched by Bernie
>staff/supporters/surrogates at folks I actually am rooting
>for. In fact it was precisely the endless attacks his
>staff/supporters/surrogates lauched towards other
>candidates/their supporters that expanded my hatred from his
>policies to his politics. I don't think I posted 1 time about
>Bernie one time in '16, even though I thought he was on some
>bullshit then too. Maybe its because I checked out after
>becoming disillusioned by HRC/the DNC.

WHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO is out here calling him the messiah?
the whole Sanders sales-pitch is that he's the anti-savior candidate. the anti-Trump. "Not Me, Us" is the slogan.

>Bernie staff/supporters/surrogates can't possibly expect to
>talk all the ignorant shit they do about other candidates and
>then have their dude escape scrutiny. It's entirely possible
>that Bernie is full of shit and could lose in Nov. As it
>is/was with any other candidates. But must that actually
>happen before it's no longer some super pearl-clutching
>statement??

the issue is that that POV is not evenly distributed.

Yes, I'm mad. Let's move on.

Jays | Cavs | Eagles | Sabres | Tarheels

PSN: Dr_Claw_77 | XBL: Dr Claw 077 | FB: drclaw077 | T: @drclaw77 | http://thepeoplesvault.wordpress.com

  

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kfine
Member since Jan 11th 2009
2218 posts
Mon Feb-24-20 11:23 AM

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92. "I hear ya, and fair points. Just want to respond to this one exchange:"
In response to Reply # 88
Mon Feb-24-20 11:26 AM by kfine

          

>
>>Since when is Bernie immune to criticism? He's not
>everyone's
>>cup of tea. To those of us not enamored with him, or to
>those
>>who have the misfortune of rooting for one of the
>competitors
>>his base hates, yes his movement can come across like the
>left
>>version of 45s. Eerily so.
>


>I disagree on the Trump comparisons except on the very
>thin-thread of how animated and legion-like they may be.
>
>it's a difference between people wolfpacking over a social
>safety net and niggas wolfpacking over a border wall and
>imaginary "illegal rapists"
>
>and lowkey, I see way too many people conflating the two.
>


I understand what you mean. I think, as someone that definitely sees it, it's an aversion to the wolfpacking as a *tactic*... not necessarily what the wolfpacking is for. Like, I get that the whole theme underlying his movement is to activate a revolution of the 99% to produce social democratic outcomes. Even though that's not my preferred style of politics, I get that it is for others and I share a desire to see improved social-democratic outcomes.

But in democracies, there's supposed to be room for debate and consensus-building right? And it's possible that many of those same social democratic outcomes (eg. universal health coverage) could be achieved by different means. I think some segments of Bernie's base lose sight of this context, and suddenly everyone/thing outside of the movement becomes the enemy.

I just think that (successful) democratic politics and consensus-building requires a certain level of civility and inclusion. The constant negativity, swarms, and intolerance can at times be overwhelming. Perhaps it doesn't seem as bad if one is inside the base/movement and not on/witnessing the receiving end of it.. but it's real.

Other thing is, the right-wing capitalizes on the wolfpacking right? Like it's so easy for them to exploit. Look at this right-wing oppo of some Bernie staffers going full tankie, glorifying Stalinism/state-sponsored violence, and calling for political/class opponents to be sent to gulags: https://twitter.com/JamesOKeefeIII/status/1220108611583606784

To non-supporters/potential supporters, it becomes harder to believe the "Bernie wouldn't be an authoritarian socialist" defense when you piece together over a year online harassment of political opponents by some of his staff/surrogates/supporters, a growing culture that discourages any Bernie criticism, and the fact that people like the dude linked are not only in his base but staff his campaign. The whole vibe just becomes something you don't want to entertain or be around. Especially when there's other candidates pushing for the same/similar social-democratic outcomes but without all that.

  

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My_SP1200_Broken_Again
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Tue Feb-25-20 10:02 AM

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99. "Stop falling for the manufactured "Bernie Bro" trope..."
In response to Reply # 92


  

          

...do you really believe of his millions of online supporters, the majority are meanies??? ...i get, it's hard to find dirt on the guy. He's squeaky clean. But find something REAL to complain about.



  

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bentagain
Member since Mar 19th 2008
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Tue Feb-25-20 11:01 AM

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101. "Has anyone provided receipts"
In response to Reply # 99


  

          

#mayorpetecheat...is not exactly vitriol

something, something...about Harris' big monor donors

I didn't see the alleged online attacks against the NV culinary union

I would be very interested to see the actual receipts, and where the accounts actually lead

Especially in light of the recent intelligence report on Russian interference

Anybody got receipts?

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you can't understand it with an explanation

  

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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
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Tue Feb-25-20 01:09 PM

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104. "Fam.. there is an OKP who dates a woman who identifies "
In response to Reply # 101


          

as a Bro

Everyone on here knows at least one victim of a Bernie Bro attack.


at least that’s their claim.

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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kfine
Member since Jan 11th 2009
2218 posts
Tue Feb-25-20 01:15 PM

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105. "I'm not falling for anything lol.I do my research,I observe,I don't like..."
In response to Reply # 99
Tue Feb-25-20 01:15 PM by kfine

          

*shrug*

It's not much more complicated than that.

Do you guys honestly believe everybody's this "closeted Bernie supporter"... just longing to find the courage to come out or something??

lol

>...do you really believe of his millions of online
>supporters, the majority are meanies???

I wouldn't use your term "meanies", but I've definitely witnessed the harassment characteristic of his base both on- and off-line over the course of the entire primary. You can't just gaslight people on this when there's clear evidence lol.

Ava Duvernay just got swarmed a few days ago all because of *one tweet* expressing she was undecided but not leaning Bernie. In response to this she received death threats and some of Bernie twitter literally said she should be guillotined. The harassment is definitely real (https://twitter.com/ava/status/1231305432603463681) and unique to Sanders' base.


...i get, it's hard
>to find dirt on the guy. He's squeaky clean. But find
>something REAL to complain about.


Well, I mean..."squeaky clean" is *your* assessment tho. Before even getting to where I disagree with some of his policy prescriptions:

- I think his poor leadership on the Senate VA committee hasn't gotten the scrutiny it should, considering he's trying to overhaul the US healthcare system. He brags often about the reforms that were enacted to help folks out as they tried to improve conditions, but the reality is he dragged his feet and only cracked down in his oversight capacity after too many veterans were dying under his watch (in interviews from that time, he comes across as extremely biased/over-protective of the VAs single-payer model imho);

-I think Jane O. Sanders' Burlington College fiasco - despite not being related at all to Bernie's legislateive work - is concerning, considering he's said she's a frequent advisor and she could be a more hands-on FL like HRC was. I basically view Burlington College as a case study of their whole "overpromise-underdeliver-underfinance" approach to policy and I'm still amazed that in only *5y* of leadership under "Sanders Doctrine" she managed to bankrupt a school that had been functioning for decades;

-He has the least productive congressional record out of any current or former member of congress in the race and, until yesterday, had provided the least indication of where the revenues would come from for his platform - where he still falls approx. 10-20T short on financing healthcare according to the vast majority of estimates.

I mean I could probably think of more, but I know how much you guys like him and my goal isn't to just blindly tear the man down. It's more that I'm just not very... convinced that he'd be a successful nom or pres. And he's NOT the only viable candidate offering solutions for things like universal health coverage or tuition-free college. So, all I've been trying to say in this sub-thread is that his policy prescriptions and/or politics are not beyond interrogation/criticism... and in/between democratic societies it's supposed to be ok to voice/debate those concerns. Not get "put on a guillotine list" like Ava lol.

  

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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
79338 posts
Tue Feb-25-20 01:43 PM

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106. "So.. when folks say they are harassed does Twitter delete the text"
In response to Reply # 105


          

cause I always see the accusations but never see the actual bullying threads.

or is this more of a “watch your tone” type deal where someone gives a sarcastic response and it’s viewed as an attack.

For the record. No one should get death threats over politics.

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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kfine
Member since Jan 11th 2009
2218 posts
Tue Feb-25-20 02:16 PM

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109. "I'm not sure tbh. A lot of people screenshot tho, so the worst ones "
In response to Reply # 106
Tue Feb-25-20 02:40 PM by kfine

          

usually pop up in a reply as you scroll down

>cause I always see the accusations but never see the actual
>bullying threads.

Oh I'm just busy rn and assumed people could search for the thread if they cared enough lol. It was only a few days ago

>
>For the record. No one should get death threats over politics.
>

Absolutely. Never ever. It's insane

  

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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
79338 posts
Tue Feb-25-20 02:59 PM

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111. "Ok. I found a few. "
In response to Reply # 109


          

Definitely shitty but not really over the top or terrorizing

That’s typical internet twitter shit talking.

Guess this is one of the bonuses of not being famous.



****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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Reeq
Member since Mar 11th 2013
16347 posts
Tue Feb-25-20 02:12 PM

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108. "cmon sis you know im not a sanders cheerleader."
In response to Reply # 83


          

nobody on here has criticized bernie and his supporters more than i have (including but not limited to a lot of the reasons you listed).

im not sure if you read docs reply but i was specifically addressing his comments about the communism/socialism coverage around bernie.

some prominent pundits (and its starting to seep into dem pol/voter discourse as well) are portraying him as a caricature much more in line with a 3rd world leftist authoritarian radical than a parliament member or pm from a european democratic socialist nation that enjoys some of the highest qualities of life in the world (which is what he is closest to).

its inexcusable. just off the inaccuracy/hyperbole alone. even moreso when its intentional fearmongering.

  

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kfine
Member since Jan 11th 2009
2218 posts
Tue Feb-25-20 02:20 PM

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110. "I hear ya."
In response to Reply # 108


          


It's all good

  

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Vex_id
Charter member
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Sun Feb-23-20 07:00 PM

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82. "yup. you already know Trump's trying to make this election"
In response to Reply # 80


          

about him saving the U.S. from AOC, Bernie & the Venezuelan communists lol.

Good luck with that. The people ain't as stupid as some within the pundit class think they are.

-->

  

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Dr Claw
Member since Jun 25th 2003
132212 posts
Mon Feb-24-20 10:20 AM

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89. "pretty much... LOL, that's riling up the GOP base"
In response to Reply # 82


  

          

>about him saving the U.S. from AOC, Bernie & the Venezuelan
>communists lol.

plus he has incumbency on his side. and a GOP that damn near controls every one of the states that a Democratic contender would need to win.

Bernie is gonna have to pull a Clinton '92 + Obama '08 combined to pull this off.

and the thing that makes it even worse is that all the non-Bernie candidates (I'm not counting Bloomberg because he's a Trump who doesn't have Trump's "populist" appeal) are basically the "John Kerry" option.

We saw what happened with that dude.

Yes, I'm mad. Let's move on.

Jays | Cavs | Eagles | Sabres | Tarheels

PSN: Dr_Claw_77 | XBL: Dr Claw 077 | FB: drclaw077 | T: @drclaw77 | http://thepeoplesvault.wordpress.com

  

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MiracleRic
Member since Oct 21st 2002
45200 posts
Tue Feb-25-20 05:24 PM

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113. "any statement that begins with "people arent stupid enough to""
In response to Reply # 82


  

          

or anything along those lines is automatically thrown in the FOH pile

bc people prove they are in fact stupid enough for just about literally ANYTHING

even people you would otherwise think were very intelligent people lol

Let me sport my Air Hyperbole 2010s in peace. (c) ansomble

Building repetoires (c) spm since 1983

  

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Reeq
Member since Mar 11th 2013
16347 posts
Wed Feb-26-20 12:40 AM

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115. "yeah that door got permanently kicked down in 2016."
In response to Reply # 113


          

  

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T Reynolds
Member since Apr 16th 2007
42754 posts
Mon Feb-24-20 09:56 AM

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87. "LOL @ this Buttigieg stunt"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

https://twitter.com/rhinosoros/status/1231586432634015744

  

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mista k5
Member since Feb 01st 2006
16404 posts
Mon Feb-24-20 10:27 AM

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90. "huge win by burning man"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

i thought 35% might be the highest he would get in NV. I could see him eventually hitting 45% support in later states but i didnt think he would do so this quickly.

biden getting 2nd is big for him. pete did better than he was polling. warren did bad. her debate performance was too late since there was such high turn out in early voting. her numbers in NV might negate the boost she did gain (in donations and national polling).

its basically bernie vs who wants to be 2nd. its still early and things can change. we've at best gotten an indication of 2/3 of the electorate.

iowa and nh is probably bottom performance for bernie and will probably be reflective of 25% of the available delegates.

nv is near top performance and will probably be reflective of 35% of the available delegates. i would guess the rest of the 40% will be in between for bernie but probably lean towards the nv performance instead of iowa or nh.

without a lot of people dropping out it is hard to see anyone else doing much better than they have. if they wait until after super tuesday to drop out who ever is left might be looking at 35% as a max moving forward.

just my guess.

  

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mista k5
Member since Feb 01st 2006
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Mon Feb-24-20 10:37 AM

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91. "bernies san antonio speech was pretty good"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

seemed to be mostly the same as the el paso speech. i dont know if this is his standard speech but it really seemed to be about uniting the working class and the party vs trump. didnt seem divisive at all towards democratic voters or candidates.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VoGSVrl-wRM

  

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bentagain
Member since Mar 19th 2008
16595 posts
Tue Feb-25-20 10:00 AM

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98. "RIP to the 'How You Gonna Pay for That' trope"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

...so let's pivot to Castro...

https://www.newsweek.com/bernie-sanders-says-hell-make-fossil-fuel-industry-pay-3-trillion-their-pollution-fund-green-1488895

BERNIE SANDERS SAYS HE'LL MAKE FOSSIL FUEL INDUSTRY PAY $3 TRILLION FOR THEIR POLLUTION TO FUND GREEN NEW DEAL
BY MATT KEELEY ON 2/24/20 AT 11:51 PM EST

Senator Bernie Sanders of Vermont's campaign shared how the 2020 Democratic presidential candidate plans on funding the programs of his platform Monday evening—including making the fossil fuel industry pay over $3 trillion for the "Green New Deal."

Sanders has been criticized during the Democratic debates for not fully explaining how he will pay for programs like his "Medicare for All" health care plan or his proposal to address climate change, commonly known as the "Green New Deal." In advance of Tuesday night's debate in Charleston, South Carolina, Sanders' website includes more details on how he expects to fund his plans.

If Sanders is elected, the candidate says the Green New Deal will cost $16.3 trillion, and will create 20 million union jobs. It will be paid for from six sources, according to Sanders' website. The fossil fuel industry will pay $3.085 trillion "for their pollution, through litigation, fees, and taxes, and eliminating federal fossil fuel subsidies."

An additional $6.4 trillion will be raised in revenue from selling energy from regional Power Marketing Administrations, along with $2.3 trillion in income tax from the new jobs created by the plan and another $2 trillion from taxing corporations. Sanders also hopes to raise another $3 trillion by cutting defense spending and reducing the burden in social services, again due to the creation of new jobs.

Ads by scrollerads.com
Sanders says the Green New Deal will save U.S. taxpayers $2.9 trillion over 10 years, and ultimately $70.4 trillion over the next 80 years. He counters this with the $34.5 trillion Sanders says the U.S. stands to lose by the year 2100 in economic productivity if the government does not act.

When it comes to Medicare for All, Sanders cites the recent Yale study which says that Sanders' proposal would save $450 billion in health care costs and save 68,000 lives every year. The plan offers several methods to pay for the startup costs of Medicare for All, including raising the top marginal income tax rate to 52 percent on income over $10 million, a reform to the capital gains tax that would close loopholes and by increasing the top federal corporate income tax to 35 percent.

Though the Green New Deal and Medicare for All get the most thorough explanation, the campaign outlines how Sanders plans to pay for some of his other programs as well. College for All, Sanders' plan to make public colleges and universities tuition-free and to cancel all student debt, is estimated to cost $2.2 trillion. This would be paid for by a tax on Wall Street speculation, which would raise $2.4 trillion over 10 years, according to Sanders' website.

One of Sanders' other plans is a wealth tax on those with a net worth of at least $32 million. Sanders' figures say that tax would raise $4.32 trillion, which would be used to pay for his Housing for All plan to eliminate homelessness, as well as his Universal Childcare/Pre-K program, which would give free childcare and preschool to every family.

Sanders is currently the frontrunner in the 2020 Democratic race, having won the Nevada caucuses in a landslide victory. Sanders leads the delegate count with 43, followed by former South Bend, Indiana Mayor Pete Buttigieg with 26, former Vice President Joe Biden with 13, and Senators Elizabeth Warren of Massachusetts and Amy Klobuchar of Minnesota with 8 and 7 delegates, respectively. A total of 1,991 delegates are needed to win the nomination on the first ballot.

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you can't understand it with an explanation

  

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My_SP1200_Broken_Again
Charter member
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Tue Feb-25-20 12:10 PM

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102. "Biden thinks he's running for senate???? Drop out Joe :("
In response to Reply # 0
Tue Feb-25-20 12:11 PM by My_SP1200_Broken_Aga

  

          

Joe Biden tells crowd ‘I’m a candidate for the United States Senate’ in confused campaign speech:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/joe-biden-speech-senate-south-carolina-democratic-primary-video-election-2020-a9356366.html

‘Look me over, if you like what you see, help out. If not, vote for the other Biden,’ he says

Poor guy isn't doing very well.. i hope he drops out soon because it's a shame to see him in such mental decline.




< Live Mixshow - Thurs 11PM/EST >
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Lurkmode
Member since May 07th 2011
5163 posts
Tue Feb-25-20 01:03 PM

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103. "Yeah this is a bad look"
In response to Reply # 102


  

          

Joe gotta go.

---------------------------
Signature

  

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blkprinceMD05
Member since Nov 29th 2004
41323 posts
Tue Feb-25-20 03:11 PM

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112. "lmao poor unky joe"
In response to Reply # 102


  

          

prototype

stand ur ground, believe in urself,
believe in love, prepare urself for love, remove the negativity from ur life, and accept the love u kno u deserve

  

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Reeq
Member since Mar 11th 2013
16347 posts
Tue Feb-25-20 06:11 PM

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114. "my man just wants a glass of milk and some graham crackers."
In response to Reply # 102


          

  

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