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Vex_id
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64013 posts
Tue Aug-20-19 11:27 AM

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"Sanders/Warren watch in 2020 Dem Primary: The demographics"
Tue Aug-20-19 11:34 AM by Vex_id

          

Though Biden has been the polling/DNC favorite for months - I believe his stock will continue to plummet - to where the real battle will be between Warren & Sanders. Interestingly, Dem Establishment figures have lectured for years on the necessity in producing moderate candidates that appeal to Conservatives/Independents - but what's happening on the ground is self-explanatory: Outside of Biden (who has a half-century of name recognition while riding on the Obama legacy coattails) - the two strongest candidates are Progressives with a capital P: Sanders & Warren.

So let's look at their respective support base.

In the aftermath of the 2016 primary, much of the analysis was focused on the inability of the Sanders campaign to draw from a broad enough swath of the electorate to knock off the Clinton juggernaut machine - and rightfully so.

Fast-forward to today, and many still speak of the Sanders campaign as if it's 2016, persisting with a narrative that he struggles to attract a diverse base - but the data actually shows quite the opposite, particularly in contrast to Warren - whose support is significantly older, more affluent - and decisively whiter. In contrast, Sanders draws his support from a more diverse, younger, and working class group of voters.

A recent Pew poll confirmed: only 49% of Sanders supporters are white, compared with 56% of Biden voters, 59% of Harris voters, and a remarkable 71% of Warren voters. When it comes specifically to black voters, Sanders only trails Biden - and has neutralized Harris at ~10% - while Warren trails significantly behind.

While the "Bernie Bro" myth persists in the minds of many still bitter from the contested 2016 primary - its accuracy has been obliterated by what's actually happening on the ground with Democratic primary voters.

So - given that Sanders is starting to put together a primary voter coalition that reflects the diversity of the democratic electorate - will we start to see the corporate media think-pieces that make the case for Sanders over Warren? Unlikely.

My personal view is that both Sanders and Warren are excellent candidates to thwart Trump and I'd be happy with either one emerging. That said, it's very interesting to see many analysts (including here on OKP) push Warren despite her affluent, older, whiter (and often more male) support - when they were criticizing Sanders at every opportunity in 2016 for not producing a diverse enough base.




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Topic Outline
Subject Author Message Date ID
I like both
Aug 20th 2019
1
RE: I like both
Aug 20th 2019
2
Fair, but he's spry as hell
Aug 20th 2019
6
This Pew Research chart is THE most comprehensive comparison I've seen
Aug 20th 2019
3
Yes - it's excellent. That's the pew research cited in the OP
Aug 20th 2019
4
np! I suspected as much :)
Aug 20th 2019
11
thats a big percentage of black/latino voters that are undecided
Aug 20th 2019
5
EXACTLY. I think the MSM has been reporting black voter sentiment wrong
Aug 20th 2019
12
      i think youre right
Aug 20th 2019
14
Also interesting: Tulsi/Yang/Castro have largest % of non-white donors
Aug 20th 2019
7
They are not the same!
Aug 20th 2019
8
I think you are right in the sense that Warren will pivot
Aug 20th 2019
9
RE: I think you are right in the sense that Warren will pivot
Aug 20th 2019
10
      Without question, Bernie is most unpalatable for big media/elites
Aug 20th 2019
17
           RE: Without question, Bernie is most unpalatable for big media/elites
Aug 20th 2019
18
Yup.
Aug 20th 2019
16
The idea that Warren is some corporate shill is ridiculous to me.
Aug 20th 2019
19
      I think that's hyperbolic. I haven't seen anyone state that
Aug 20th 2019
22
There's lots of bad stats being parroted imho, about multiple candidates
Aug 20th 2019
13
I think these numbers now don't mean much
Aug 20th 2019
15
yeah but how do you explain this?
Aug 20th 2019
20
"Stronger Together" ?
Aug 20th 2019
21
I see you Vex
Aug 20th 2019
23
in the spirit of the Matrix 4....
Aug 21st 2019
24
      HA!
Aug 21st 2019
25
warren edges out sanders imo. the age demos doom bernie.
Aug 22nd 2019
26
You know what? My hunch is Sanders doesn't do "poorly" with 50+ per se,
Aug 22nd 2019
28
iono fam lol. it tracks with some tangible voter behavior we have imo.
Aug 22nd 2019
30
      Lol, I hear you. All good points. And to your question re: Sanders' lag:
Aug 22nd 2019
31
      Hmm, you just made me think of another thing too:
Aug 22nd 2019
32
           I think you might be neglecting the media
Aug 23rd 2019
35
                Nah, I'm sorry but that's bullshit. Sanders has some of the HIGHEST
Aug 23rd 2019
36
                     sis these people are crazy. sounding straight up like trump supporters.
Aug 25th 2019
43
                     The link is not bullshit, FAIR is a solid assessor of such things but .....
Aug 25th 2019
47
So now drawing from a diverse electorate is largely negligible?
Aug 23rd 2019
33
      oh is this just about diversity for diversitys sake
Aug 25th 2019
42
           since when does drawing from a diverse electorate
Aug 26th 2019
49
Krystal Ball: Elites have chosen Warren as The One
Aug 22nd 2019
27
lol first it was kamala, then beto, then mayor pete, now lizzy.
Aug 22nd 2019
29
      or they're just shit candidiates who've sucked on the campaign trail
Aug 23rd 2019
34
      I fell for the Beto hype.. dude is a dud.
Aug 23rd 2019
37
      Liz has been the "establishment" pick all along
Aug 23rd 2019
38
      the real treasure was the friends we made along the way?
Aug 25th 2019
45
      It was Kamala in the beginning. The Establishment really REALLY
Aug 26th 2019
56
           agreed in part
Oct 18th 2019
78
      I wanna agree with you wholeheartedly BUT things do change
Aug 25th 2019
46
It's a red flag party!
Aug 23rd 2019
39
once she announced that she's taking donor money in the
Aug 23rd 2019
40
You have interesting sources for a Bernie Bro
Aug 23rd 2019
41
michael tracey? are you intentionally being a stereotype?
Aug 25th 2019
44
      For those who need their sources & voices corporate approved
Aug 26th 2019
48
           as a person who don't really fuck with the corporate media on certain to...
Aug 26th 2019
50
           yeah warren courting donors pretty much renders her policies moot
Aug 26th 2019
52
Welp - that didn't take long. Biden drops to 3rd
Aug 26th 2019
51
LOL... now to see what WaPo and 'em do in response
Aug 26th 2019
53
The is THE opportunity for Kamala and Cory. If/when the Black
Aug 26th 2019
55
yup. Expect Kamala to come out swinging.
Aug 26th 2019
60
eh i could see apathy before siding with either of them
Aug 26th 2019
63
Right! I cited WaPo for irony's sake lol
Aug 26th 2019
61
he cant drop fast enough
Aug 26th 2019
54
      Without having the numbers in front of me, I thought I saw that Bernie
Aug 26th 2019
57
      upon further review it looks like they split it
Aug 26th 2019
58
      I still believe the Biden margin was bloated from the jump
Aug 26th 2019
59
      i guess its name recognition
Aug 26th 2019
62
      He is such trash
Aug 26th 2019
64
Biden 32; Sanders 20; Warren 18 as of 9/16
Sep 17th 2019
65
y'all still think Biden got this or nah?
Oct 16th 2019
66
we in trouble
Oct 16th 2019
67
RE: we in trouble
Oct 18th 2019
69
      NONE of the options are any good.
Oct 18th 2019
71
      which ones would be good presidents?
Oct 18th 2019
72
           Warren.
Oct 18th 2019
73
      no one, Vex
Oct 18th 2019
80
           RE: no one, Vex
Oct 19th 2019
82
                Im following you...
Oct 22nd 2019
87
It's Biden or Warren at this point.
Oct 16th 2019
68
Do you honestly think Biden is going to be a factor this time next year?
Oct 18th 2019
70
      Nah... Biden is going to be around until the end.
Oct 18th 2019
75
           Interesting optimism re: Biden. His campaign's basically a failed enterp...
Oct 18th 2019
76
                that why i do think the performance we saw from amy and pete
Oct 18th 2019
77
                I’m not sure he will win but I think he will be the last one out
Oct 18th 2019
81
nope.
Oct 18th 2019
79
welp, 4 more years coming smh
Oct 18th 2019
74
Over 20,000 people rallying right now in Queens w/ AOC
Oct 19th 2019
83
yeah. this time, they can't really pull the 'Bro' card
Oct 19th 2019
84
      well-said. Still, far too few peel back the layers like you just did:
Oct 19th 2019
85
Emerson poll 10/22: Biden 27%; Sanders 25%; Warren 21%
Oct 22nd 2019
86
CNN N.H. poll: Sanders 22%; Warren 18%; Biden 15%
Oct 29th 2019
88
at what point do you call bluff on the Biden polling?
Nov 04th 2019
89
2016 proved (once again) that polls are not to be trusted.
Nov 04th 2019
90
      RE: 2016 proved (once again) that polls are not to be trusted.
Nov 05th 2019
91
Monmouth poll (10/30-11/4) Biden 23%; Warren 23%; Sanders 20%
Nov 06th 2019
92
Quinnipiac (Iowa): Warren: 20%; Pete: 19%: Sanders 17%
Nov 07th 2019
93
Warren plummeting in new nation-wide polls (12-3)
Dec 03rd 2019
94
going to link the polls?
Dec 03rd 2019
95
I don't think it's helpful to continue to cite singular polls as they co...
Dec 03rd 2019
96
      LOL
Dec 06th 2019
99
           Cool.
Dec 06th 2019
101
this is what happens when you waffle on M4A...
Dec 04th 2019
97
Get her out of there she's trash.
Dec 06th 2019
98
for what it's worth: these two should be the last two remaining IMO
Dec 06th 2019
100
It should - but Biden's artificial strength still impacts the race
Dec 06th 2019
102
Sanders ascending in delegate rich California
Dec 09th 2019
103
Politico: Dem Insiders: Bernie Could Win Nomination
Dec 27th 2019
104
They are finally realizing the inevitable
Dec 27th 2019
105
RE: They are finally realizing the inevitable
Dec 30th 2019
106
He's not
Dec 30th 2019
107
      so who is the strongest candidate?
Dec 30th 2019
108
      He's the best candidate of your lifetime.
Dec 31st 2019
110
           lol
Dec 31st 2019
112
I'm shocked that an insider is saying this.
Dec 30th 2019
109
      It seemed to have been more of a warning shot
Dec 31st 2019
111
           bingo.
Jan 03rd 2020
122
Sanders raises 34.5 million in fundraising surge (WSJ)
Jan 02nd 2020
113
14.4* million people voted in the 2016 democratic primaries
Jan 02nd 2020
114
RE: Sanders raises 34.5 million in fundraising surge (WSJ)
Jan 02nd 2020
115
that makes more sense
Jan 02nd 2020
116
RE: Sanders raises 34.5 million in fundraising surge (WSJ)
Jan 02nd 2020
118
LOL and Andrew Yang raised 16.5 million.
Jan 02nd 2020
117
warren struggling to hit "only" 20 million
Jan 02nd 2020
119
its kinda funny how much the media was hyping up
Jan 02nd 2020
120
      yea I saw that.
Jan 02nd 2020
121
Dem Primary shaping up to be a Biden v. Bernie showdown | 1/7
Jan 08th 2020
123
Time to make something of Biden's Iraq war vote
Jan 08th 2020
124
      Bernie is bodying Biden on Iraq, fairly regularly now
Jan 09th 2020
126
When even Chris Cillizza is conceding to Bernie's strength
Jan 09th 2020
125
Is it time for Warren to consider backing Bernie to thwart Biden?
Jan 09th 2020
127
lets get some votes cast first
Jan 09th 2020
128
Agreed - but at what point should this happen?
Jan 09th 2020
129
      it should be considered before super tuesday
Jan 09th 2020
130
      Pete needs to chill
Jan 09th 2020
131
           Maybe Pete needs to drop out and endorse Biden.
Jan 09th 2020
136
           If you say so.
Jan 09th 2020
142
           Pete's got another re-brand in him
Jan 09th 2020
143
                Pete's fundraising has been quite effective. ~$25 mill in Q4 I believe
Jan 09th 2020
144
      LMAO what?
Jan 09th 2020
138
           The reason for asking a question is generally to elicit a response
Jan 09th 2020
141
RE: Is it time for Warren to consider backing Bernie to thwart Biden?
Jan 09th 2020
132
The Sunrise endorsement is an important one
Jan 09th 2020
148
LOL, just like it was Warren's job to thwart Hillary.
Jan 09th 2020
133
Oh, Warren was running for President in 2016?
Jan 09th 2020
134
      LOL, struck a nerve.
Jan 09th 2020
135
      lol this is low - even for you.
Jan 09th 2020
137
           You probably have female friends, too!
Jan 09th 2020
145
                Damn Strav you ok? Can you read?
Jan 09th 2020
146
                     No, the way to not say sexist things...
Jan 09th 2020
147
                          RE: No, the way to not say sexist things...
Jan 09th 2020
149
                               No, you won't, will you?
Jan 09th 2020
150
                                    another deflection.
Jan 09th 2020
151
      wait, what? Not to jump into your spat but stop playing dumb
Jan 09th 2020
139
           What happened to "vote blue no matter who"?
Jan 09th 2020
140
                you really are your own worst enemy, bro
Jan 13th 2020
162
Wait, what? Why should "she" be the one to drop out for "him"?
Jan 10th 2020
152
*likes this reply*
Jan 10th 2020
154
great points, as always.
Jan 10th 2020
156
      Lol, thx. And I hear ya. Just one point re: where we disagree
Jan 10th 2020
158
Oh an btw, if Bernie and/or the far left is finally acknowledging that
Jan 10th 2020
155
Why are we watching the 2 least remarkable candidates?
Jan 10th 2020
153
Yea, I know. I'm floored by how remarkable Biden's candidacy is
Jan 10th 2020
157
who do you believe?
Jan 13th 2020
159
Warren
Jan 13th 2020
160
The timing of this isn't peculiar at all, is it?
Jan 13th 2020
161
Vex come out to play....ugly and desperate- u describing warren
Feb 18th 2020
545
Bernie, obviously.
Jan 13th 2020
163
You were saying?
Jan 13th 2020
178
CNN’s Sanders Hit Piece Doesn’t Pass the Smell Test - FAIR
Jan 13th 2020
164
shit, didn't catch that this was about her saying this is what happened
Jan 13th 2020
165
bernie on the topic back when she was a republican
Jan 13th 2020
166
Those are different questions though
Jan 13th 2020
169
Warren went on record and confirmed it
Jan 13th 2020
168
Even before Warren confirmed, I definitely did not believe Bernie.
Jan 13th 2020
170
You going too far
Jan 13th 2020
171
Thank you for sharing your opinion. We disagree.
Jan 13th 2020
172
      Welcome
Jan 13th 2020
174
I think your reaction to this proves that this doesn't move the needle m...
Jan 13th 2020
173
      You movin the goal post
Jan 13th 2020
175
      !!!!
Jan 13th 2020
179
      That vague quote was sufficient for you?
Jan 13th 2020
180
           whats vague about : ‘he said he didn’t think a woman could win, I
Jan 13th 2020
184
           Because she didn't say what he actually said.
Jan 13th 2020
186
           It's not vague if she corroborates the sources for the story
Jan 14th 2020
202
      I agree, actually lol. I don't think it will move the needle much either...
Jan 13th 2020
176
      Yea I know another Pete supporter who is always on edge
Jan 13th 2020
183
           Wow lol. So personal and str8 out of trump’s twitter:
Jan 13th 2020
188
                So you're cool with Warren appropriating Indigenous people
Jan 14th 2020
189
                     :-/
Jan 14th 2020
192
                     welp lol
Jan 23rd 2020
457
                     vex come out to play, certainly this can’t be who u would want to be
Feb 18th 2020
546
      With you on all this.
Jan 14th 2020
199
LET'S ARGUEEEEEEEE
Jan 13th 2020
177
obv no way to know for sure but I'm leaning Bernie
Jan 13th 2020
181
? Are you aware that warren confirmed that was said. Explicitly
Jan 13th 2020
185
      lol are you even listening to yourself?
Jan 14th 2020
190
      She clearly noted that they disagreed about *that*, which likeminded
Jan 14th 2020
193
           Yep
Jan 14th 2020
194
           lol how is that not a personal attack?
Jan 14th 2020
197
           100%
Jan 14th 2020
200
           RE: she managed to not personally attack him
Jan 14th 2020
198
                Whatever y’all are attributing to her directly and as her motives is
Jan 14th 2020
241
                     There's enough evidence in the public space to refute the claim
Jan 16th 2020
302
      Sure. just as I'm aware he denies saying it
Jan 14th 2020
195
Paul Begala *and* Joe Lockhart are my TV right now
Jan 14th 2020
196
They both lying but him more than her.
Jan 14th 2020
216
Bernie.
Jan 15th 2020
259
After seeing and hearing the hot mic audio, Warren seems sincere.
Jan 16th 2020
307
      Oh please. She knew the mic was on. And maybe even ...
Jan 16th 2020
308
Dammit. Wrong post. Sorry
Jan 13th 2020
167
warren is my top choice but I prefer Bernie to Biden or mayor Pete
Jan 13th 2020
182
RE: warren is my top choice but I prefer Bernie to Biden or mayor Pete
Jan 14th 2020
191
      RE: warren is my top choice but I prefer Bernie to Biden or mayor Pete
Jan 14th 2020
201
           RE: warren is my top choice but I prefer Bernie to Biden or mayor Pete
Jan 14th 2020
204
                He's calling her limited
Jan 14th 2020
206
                     Vex isn't a sexist- he loves his mom
Jan 14th 2020
213
                          True
Jan 14th 2020
217
                          Dog, we know you hate Bernie, but chill.
Jan 14th 2020
221
                          ^^^^^^^^^^^
Jan 14th 2020
238
Yikes, some of these replies are bizarro world...and trumpian
Jan 13th 2020
187
Yep bizarro world
Jan 14th 2020
203
oh gtfoh, lol
Jan 14th 2020
209
      Nah
Jan 14th 2020
210
           You're taking mansplaining to a whole new level: Why do you believe
Jan 14th 2020
214
                Welcome to message board
Jan 14th 2020
218
                     This is weird. We were literally both arguing in favor of Warren but
Jan 14th 2020
224
                          LOL it's not ok to make ridiculous comments just because you agree
Jan 14th 2020
226
                               Ohhh, you just don't UNDERSTAND what I mean.. ok, all good lol
Jan 14th 2020
227
                                    I understand
Jan 14th 2020
228
                                         No, you honestly don't.
Jan 14th 2020
229
                                              Yes I do
Jan 14th 2020
231
                                                   No, seriously, you don't lol. It's ok tho and it might even be my fault.
Jan 14th 2020
232
                                                        Ok
Jan 14th 2020
233
lol trumpian
Jan 14th 2020
215
blah i dont like this
Jan 14th 2020
205
This 100%
Jan 14th 2020
212
All of this
Jan 14th 2020
239
Agreed.
Jan 17th 2020
346
i hope bernie and liz dead this shit on live tv during the debate.
Jan 14th 2020
207
Biden is the clear beneficiary of this
Jan 14th 2020
208
Was just chatting with a friend about this. Very, very, important foreig...
Jan 14th 2020
211
Exactly. If this overshadows substantive debate on Iran/FP
Jan 14th 2020
222
RE: Biden is the clear beneficiary of this
Jan 14th 2020
220
      Beyond the troubling implications of this, the strategy is horrible
Jan 14th 2020
223
           RE: Beyond the troubling implications of this, the strategy is horrible
Jan 14th 2020
225
and of course CNN* only served to make it worse
Jan 15th 2020
260
Its just locker room talk
Jan 14th 2020
219
What's with all the "Bernie's A Misogynist" Talk?
Jan 14th 2020
230
Lookup Bernie's rape essays.
Jan 14th 2020
235
bad history with women? what do you mean?
Jan 14th 2020
237
it's the third comment on twitter from who?
Jan 14th 2020
244
They can fill libraries with all the things you haven't seen...and they ...
Jan 15th 2020
264
      cool, zero examples.
Jan 27th 2020
477
bernie threw his weight/influence behind an anti-abortion candidate.
Jan 14th 2020
248
Ha, the walkback begins after this backfired on Warren
Jan 14th 2020
234
yea it's pretty clear that this isn't playing well with voters
Jan 14th 2020
236
no What’s clear is that Bernie’s rabid and vocal supporters are suck...
Jan 14th 2020
240
the beauty is all we have to do is wait and see how this plays out
Jan 14th 2020
247
Warren is my preferred president of the bunch
Jan 14th 2020
242
Agreed. As stated in the original post
Jan 14th 2020
246
IT ISN'T PLAYING WELL WITH VOTERRRRRRRSSSSSSS
Jan 14th 2020
243
let's find one example of you ever "coalescing progressives"
Jan 14th 2020
245
Yeah, you guys put that bitch in her place, didn't you!
Jan 14th 2020
249
The Story Elizabeth Warren Isn't Telling (The Atlantic)
Jan 14th 2020
250
damn...maybe she can help convert more people in their 40s
Jan 15th 2020
276
nice oppo swipe
Feb 18th 2020
547
I'ont like the way Warren is trying to flip this
Jan 14th 2020
251
Oh, I thought that was charming
Jan 14th 2020
252
CNN is basically a Warren campaign proxy tonight lol
Jan 14th 2020
253
if I were to wager who they wanted the most, it's not Warren.
Jan 15th 2020
262
yea you're right.
Jan 15th 2020
267
      i feel like they see the writing on the wall with biden
Jan 15th 2020
271
I think it's more of...anybody but Bernie
Jan 15th 2020
263
Thankfully, barely anyone can stomach to sit through these debates
Jan 15th 2020
268
definitely seemed like
Jan 15th 2020
266
      and you're not even a Sanders supporter, right?
Jan 15th 2020
270
           if i voted only with my heart it would be a bernie vote
Jan 15th 2020
272
                well-said
Jan 15th 2020
279
                     its not a move i would have made but i obviously dont run campaigns
Jan 15th 2020
280
i hate how this is prolly gonna overshadow the parnas leaks tonight.
Jan 14th 2020
254
The leaks will still get play
Jan 14th 2020
255
iono fam. this alone will prolly fill up the news cycle for a week:
Jan 14th 2020
256
      Steyer get your punk ass out of the way
Jan 15th 2020
258
Bernie should have boycotted the debate, he never gets a fair shot with
Jan 15th 2020
257
      I legit thought you were serious for a second
Jan 15th 2020
277
nope, it's quite Clintonian
Jan 15th 2020
261
Imagine if a man refused to shake a woman's hand post debate
Jan 15th 2020
265
These fucking cunts, right?!
Jan 15th 2020
269
LOL its like they can't consider for a second
Jan 15th 2020
274
      i definitely wouldnt be surprised if shes holding back
Jan 15th 2020
278
      denzelboom.gif
Jan 15th 2020
281
      ^^^^
Jan 15th 2020
282
ITWAM
Jan 15th 2020
273
audio of their exchange caught by mics
Jan 15th 2020
283
      Warren confronted him
Jan 15th 2020
284
      Watching that really drives home that she was really shocked and
Jan 15th 2020
285
      Exactly
Jan 15th 2020
286
      she def stepped to him like a nigga that did indeed say that shit.
Jan 15th 2020
289
      Lmao. She def did. She had the hands clasped and everything
Jan 16th 2020
292
      Steyer’s reaction makes me laugh everytime. And good for him being
Jan 16th 2020
291
           He said it was a "treat" to meet Bernie lol.
Jan 16th 2020
296
                that had me dying
Jan 16th 2020
314
                     LOL
Jan 16th 2020
316
      LOL@more shit Bernie didn't say
Jan 16th 2020
290
           Correct.
Jan 16th 2020
297
           motherfuckers falling for the kayfabe, you love to see it
Jan 16th 2020
298
                Actually, I don't
Jan 16th 2020
301
                     sarcasm but yeah
Jan 19th 2020
370
CNN trying to create a rift and Liz fell of it...
Jan 15th 2020
275
He had a right to refuse to answer that question in the affirmative
Jan 16th 2020
294
IMO, she shouldn't have taken the bait
Jan 16th 2020
299
      RE: Tom Boody/Cheatriots
Jan 16th 2020
300
           Baseball culture is more puritanical though
Jan 16th 2020
303
she’s mad at Bernie for calling her a liar whilst calling him a liar?
Jan 15th 2020
287
Something he strangely didn’t seem bothered by at all. U call me a
Jan 15th 2020
288
He had a retort too like 'actually' but instead said
Jan 16th 2020
293
      ^^^ exactly
Jan 16th 2020
295
      likely scenario:
Jan 16th 2020
304
      approached dude aggressive too..on some "let's make sure they see this"
Jan 16th 2020
305
           100%
Jan 16th 2020
306
           shes terrible at the only thing Trump is good at
Jan 16th 2020
309
           I like CNN stringing the story out for a full day
Jan 16th 2020
310
           Exactly - that ambush was scripted - as were the CNN "journalists"
Jan 16th 2020
311
Btw: this post was originally authored in August of 2019
Jan 16th 2020
312
On the Elizabeth Warren minority voter problem
Jan 16th 2020
313
      What ? Using Trumps rhetoric
Jan 16th 2020
315
      RE: What ? Using Trumps rhetoric
Jan 16th 2020
317
           Sanders better focus on Biden
Jan 16th 2020
318
      young Black women LOVE lizzy. Not sure about sanders but I love
Jan 17th 2020
319
           Here's a poll from 12.8 that disagrees
Jan 17th 2020
322
                Oh ok. Just for the record I have zero interest in trying to convince
Jan 17th 2020
326
                     He already thanked you for the anecdotes ..
Jan 17th 2020
327
                     So now we're just saying "well I know people" to override actual data?
Jan 17th 2020
328
                          Haha.. of course people who like Warren will know people who like her
Jan 17th 2020
329
                          bentagain: "Polling consistently shows Warren has a problem with ...
Jan 17th 2020
331
Can anyone show me where the Bernie folks went after male as hard
Jan 17th 2020
320
i honestly dont think theyve ever gone that hard at trump.
Jan 17th 2020
321
^^^
Jan 17th 2020
324
not nearly as hard as you go at Bernie waving the #NeverSanders flag
Jan 17th 2020
330
      What is the definition for “going hard”
Jan 17th 2020
332
      RE: What is the definition for “going hard”
Jan 17th 2020
338
      you just gonna make a career outta being the LOUD AND WRONG GUY
Jan 17th 2020
339
      Oh damn you went into the vaults lol
Jan 17th 2020
340
           yeah fam i coulda swore we had convos about this
Jan 17th 2020
343
                Yep - I was def a Bernie Bro. And still am to the extent that you mentio...
Jan 17th 2020
349
                RE: yeah fam i coulda swore we had convos about this
Jan 17th 2020
353
                     It's like a whole different world and life these last 4 years.
Jan 17th 2020
355
                          RE: It's like a whole different world and life these last 4 years.
Jan 19th 2020
366
      When do I or anyone say never sanders? I like him enough and think
Jan 17th 2020
347
I mean from observing they go after Mayo, Yang, and Biden pretty hard
Jan 17th 2020
323
I just haven’t seen it. Just being honest. The snakes and neverwarren
Jan 17th 2020
325
      I agree and Biden is the front runner
Jan 17th 2020
333
           RE: I agree and Biden is the front runner
Jan 17th 2020
337
                RE: I agree and Biden is the front runner
Jan 17th 2020
342
                Bernie is really not the problem, you are. and other supporters like you...
Jan 17th 2020
344
                     LOL what
Jan 17th 2020
350
                     LOL you're mad af.
Jan 17th 2020
352
                          Not mad. Repulsed. Ur rabid
Jan 18th 2020
356
                          Why aren’t Bernie Bros attacking Biden (c) Lizzo stans
Jan 18th 2020
359
I honestly haven't. not sure how much of it is situational though
Jan 17th 2020
335
I need someone to do this poll.
Jan 17th 2020
334
Id be scared to see the results
Jan 17th 2020
336
I actually don't think this will be significant
Jan 17th 2020
341
I mean it happened it 16...25% of sanders voters in the DEM primary
Jan 17th 2020
345
Who needs polls like that when you can blame the iron sickle cyclops?
Jan 17th 2020
348
      LOL
Jan 17th 2020
354
Sanders gets a boost; Warren slips in first post-debate polls
Jan 17th 2020
351
The whole Bernie said this in 2018
Jan 18th 2020
357
      I am a Warren supporter and it was not a good move.
Jan 18th 2020
358
      RE: I am a Warren supporter and it was not a good move.
Jan 19th 2020
361
      yea it's been real disgraceful to see how it's been played by Warren
Jan 19th 2020
364
Sanders campaign researched possibility of dual VP/Treasury secretary
Jan 18th 2020
360
Sanders team "ATTACKS" Biden on social security
Jan 19th 2020
362
Months later
Jan 19th 2020
363
Yea clearly you haven't been paying attention
Jan 19th 2020
365
      Nah you are letting Warren take up all your attention
Jan 19th 2020
367
           Again, if you just started following the primary two weeks ago
Jan 19th 2020
368
                lmao wrong again
Jan 19th 2020
369
                     Wow. You’re really bad at this
Jan 19th 2020
371
                     You sound desperate
Jan 19th 2020
372
                     Ur such a privileged white know it all. Tell us the errors of our ways
Jan 20th 2020
375
                          when all else fails, tribe & divide.
Jan 20th 2020
376
                               this is how you respond to being called on your white privilege?
Jan 22nd 2020
405
                                    what would've been an appropriate response to that?
Jan 22nd 2020
414
                     doesn't "take a more aggressive stance" imply that
Jan 20th 2020
378
                          It implies a weak or soft stance
Jan 20th 2020
379
                          yea that's what really bad about these Johnny Come Lately "analysts"
Jan 22nd 2020
415
Lol as I said, Bernie has been on message. But hopefully u rabid
Jan 20th 2020
373
this feeds right into the sanders campaign’s talking points! (Ny times...
Jan 20th 2020
374
Pramila Jayapal endorses Sanders
Jan 20th 2020
377
they are. and with the impeachment hearings requiring both in DC
Jan 20th 2020
380
      No doubt. Sanders has amassed an impressive field of surrogates
Jan 22nd 2020
382
BBs: is warren ok now that Bernie and her were laughing and arm n
Jan 22nd 2020
381
If Warren doesn’t finish top 3 in Iowa
Jan 22nd 2020
383
That can’t be a real question.
Jan 22nd 2020
385
!!!! Certainly none of the top 4.
Jan 22nd 2020
387
      they call for Warren to drop out before Yang, Tulsi, etc
Jan 22nd 2020
392
No need to curse or get nasty, ur being such a Bernie bro, bro....and
Jan 22nd 2020
386
if Warren doesn't WIN Iowa she should commit seppuku
Jan 22nd 2020
409
      lmaoooo
Jan 23rd 2020
421
she knew she was wrong..
Jan 22nd 2020
384
oh please. I can see y’all really just want that b*tch to go away and
Jan 22nd 2020
388
      naw, that wack ass virtue signaling see thru and she would be DESTROYED
Jan 22nd 2020
389
      lol now thats some quality trolling
Jan 22nd 2020
390
      You're in here
Jan 22nd 2020
393
      Lol at “y’all” — so pressed
Jan 22nd 2020
398
           no one has called her a bitch...
Jan 22nd 2020
406
                yea it's beyond cheap
Jan 22nd 2020
413
                oh It’s in the atmosphere. It’s on the tip of all the BBs tongues. T...
Jan 23rd 2020
431
she aint getting the nom tho
Jan 22nd 2020
395
      maybe Not. A lot can change tho. Doubt sanders will get it either
Jan 22nd 2020
402
didn't watch last week's debate but watching some of these clips. yikes
Jan 22nd 2020
391
Fam it was disgraceful.
Jan 22nd 2020
396
For-profit news outlets probably shouldn't get debates
Jan 22nd 2020
397
yikes! Warren continues to plummet to a distant third
Jan 22nd 2020
394
https://media.giphy.com/media/cysC0vt63VQZ2/giphy.gif
Jan 22nd 2020
399
Separating you guys from Trumpers is getting harder and harder to do.
Jan 22nd 2020
400
U see it! Deplorables. Trapped in their own toxic world
Jan 22nd 2020
401
The whole press is out to get them!
Jan 22nd 2020
403
      Lol so mad and wrong - and I’m here for it.
Jan 22nd 2020
404
Warren's camp takes a shot at Bernie
Jan 22nd 2020
407
not just about the polls...but since you bring up polls
Jan 22nd 2020
410
and betting markets are saying:
Jan 22nd 2020
417
damn biden is leading in 4 outta 5 early states
Jan 22nd 2020
418
don't even waste your breath fam
Jan 22nd 2020
412
its been frustrating and disappointing to see it play out
Jan 22nd 2020
408
LOL I love this.
Jan 22nd 2020
411
it is kinda funny how confused they are when you arent blindly loyal
Jan 22nd 2020
420
theres a lot of self assuring and bubble blowing on the left of the left...
Jan 22nd 2020
419
So what is causing her recent slump? The debate performance?
Jan 23rd 2020
422
      What "recent" slump?
Jan 23rd 2020
425
           I appreciate the detailed answer
Jan 23rd 2020
427
           yeah her support was heavily reliant on college educated whites
Jan 23rd 2020
434
you hate to see it 😆
Jan 22nd 2020
416
Bernie Sanders surges into first in CNN national poll
Jan 23rd 2020
423
same poll shows bloomberg performing better than bernie against trump.
Jan 23rd 2020
432
      Same poll shows bloomberg performing *the same as* bernie against trump.
Jan 23rd 2020
437
           you harping on margin of error?
Jan 23rd 2020
438
                Exactly!
Jan 23rd 2020
440
                     It seems like that was Reeq's point from the start, though.
Jan 23rd 2020
441
                          Cool. If that's the case, then the same applies to the other headline
Jan 23rd 2020
442
                               On that, we completely agree.
Jan 23rd 2020
444
                                    True. And for that reason I only make a fuss when it's close
Jan 23rd 2020
446
S. Carolina elected official now backing Sanders over Biden
Jan 23rd 2020
424
LOL at "elected official."
Jan 23rd 2020
426
I mean, it's pretty well known that the exact demographic
Jan 23rd 2020
428
also interesting to see them tout the support of a conservative dem.
Jan 23rd 2020
430
      Yes, the support of a conservative dem is the point of posting the artic...
Jan 23rd 2020
433
      but they consistently trash conservative dems.
Jan 23rd 2020
435
           I get you.
Jan 23rd 2020
436
      she's also Black, so there's at least a modicum of sense involved
Jan 24th 2020
466
Goodness. What a headline. Watershed moment for sure
Jan 23rd 2020
429
Don't forget: the 'mainstream media' is trying to stop Bernie!
Jan 23rd 2020
439
Another example of how many here can’t be objective
Jan 23rd 2020
443
      This just in! Bernie has a black friend!
Jan 23rd 2020
445
           LOL!!!!
Jan 23rd 2020
450
           Dude
Jan 23rd 2020
453
           He sure does have a lot of Black voters
Jan 23rd 2020
456
                note: this was also done to Obama in 2008.
Jan 24th 2020
467
                     Yep. Never forget the Clinton islamophibic Hail Mary either
Jan 25th 2020
470
If Bernie promised a Warren as head of treasury and had a young POC
Jan 23rd 2020
447
Lmao at enthusiastically voting if he does everything you want.. lol
Jan 23rd 2020
448
Isn't that (at least theoretically) exactly the point ?!
Jan 23rd 2020
449
thats 2 dem senators being replaced by repub governors
Jan 23rd 2020
451
damn bruh
Jan 23rd 2020
454
      Yep. But true.
Jan 23rd 2020
455
RE: reply 360
Jan 23rd 2020
452
that was on the table before she lied and backstabbed him...
Jan 23rd 2020
461
      LOL, "lied and backstabbed" him.
Jan 23rd 2020
463
the bernie bros and warren woes trenches are dug in deep
Jan 23rd 2020
458
This was a refreshing read
Jan 23rd 2020
459
Anybody interested in a palate cleanser?
Jan 23rd 2020
460
Nothing cleanses the palate like some good old fashioned
Jan 23rd 2020
462
Lol. Is he supposed to be responsible for everything McKinsey has ever d...
Jan 23rd 2020
465
Tulsi Gabbard Sues for Hillary Clintion for Attention and 50 million
Jan 23rd 2020
464
SMH. Tulsi gotta go on 'hit dog' mode for nothing
Jan 24th 2020
468
      She gotta get that Fox show locked down
Jan 25th 2020
471
NYT: Sanders Seizes Lead in Volatile Iowa Race
Jan 25th 2020
469
yup, he's become the frontrunner
Jan 25th 2020
472
feel the beeern
Jan 25th 2020
473
.
Jan 26th 2020
474
its really starting to look like its biden vs bernie
Jan 27th 2020
475
Until it’s not lol. What did polls show before the Iowa caucus in 08?
Jan 27th 2020
476
oops, i thought i said "if the polls are accurate"
Jan 27th 2020
480
you should look back at previous elections
Jan 27th 2020
478
      going back to 2000 the one leading in polls in the last wk won in iowa
Jan 27th 2020
481
Bernie Sanders and His Internet Army (NYT LOOOONG SWIPE)
Jan 27th 2020
479
Damn
Jan 27th 2020
482
its a problem, and he needs to do more
Jan 27th 2020
483
      What would you suggest?
Jan 28th 2020
484
      Sure they can (if they are leaders)
Jan 28th 2020
485
      ^^^^^^ and he’s already done it with zephyr
Jan 28th 2020
486
      ^^^^^^ yep
Jan 28th 2020
487
      Well then he is a figurehead... because it ain’t happening.
Jan 28th 2020
490
      Here's a helpful trick for the Bernie fans:
Jan 28th 2020
488
           I’m not a Bernie fan
Jan 28th 2020
489
           don't hire and/or promote the people who lead the groups
Jan 28th 2020
500
           Maybe don't try to turn extremists into your supporters.
Jan 28th 2020
504
                Is Bernie living in Waco in a compound?
Jan 29th 2020
510
                     You're the one who said some of his supporters are "extremists."
Jan 29th 2020
511
           There were clear dog whistles Trump was using at rallies
Jan 28th 2020
491
           ^this. Trump is no better than his supporters. in most cases even worse
Jan 28th 2020
493
           This *should* be obvious.
Jan 28th 2020
494
           Lmao.. the Trump comparison is so lazy.
Jan 28th 2020
497
           sure but there are similarities in the cult-like approach
Jan 28th 2020
505
                I'm mostly referring to the media response to "Bernie bros" ...
Jan 29th 2020
508
           Apprehensiveness about their future? What ?
Jan 28th 2020
496
           to be fair, Trump egged on his cult
Jan 28th 2020
492
                What did Obama say? “I can’t control who likes me, Hillary”
Jan 28th 2020
495
                Lol you mean right before he publicly denounced Farrakhan?
Jan 28th 2020
499
                     You missed the point.
Jan 29th 2020
507
                     you used that quote. isnt that what it was in reference to?
Jan 29th 2020
523
                          The point is a politician can’t control who likes them nor how they ac...
Jan 29th 2020
533
                               your sig always gets me, man lol
Jan 29th 2020
534
                     Hilary campaigned on hopes of Obama's assasination..
Jan 29th 2020
509
                          not sure what that has to do with anything but
Jan 29th 2020
525
                Yes but to be fair again: it's easy for us to see how Trump eggs them on...
Jan 28th 2020
503
                     great points. I am curious about your characterization of bro-ism
Jan 29th 2020
513
                          yeah it gets hard to dismiss bernie fans' gripe with the msm.
Jan 29th 2020
529
      I think he knows that a lot of people are mad.
Jan 28th 2020
498
           100% agree on the demographic points
Jan 28th 2020
501
           who exactly has said there aren't women who like bernie?
Jan 28th 2020
502
           ^^^
Jan 29th 2020
512
           Yep.
Jan 29th 2020
514
           Bernie could possibly be at 40% if the BBs were muzzled.
Jan 29th 2020
515
                Do you have any evidence of this, at all ? Or are these just words ?
Jan 29th 2020
516
                Right? I’m sure they turn off people who support other candidates
Jan 29th 2020
522
                i only hear about BBs on OKP
Jan 29th 2020
536
                     Everyone else you talk to is a Bernie Bro.
Jan 29th 2020
537
                I know of several man
Jan 29th 2020
527
                     I want to be clear on this: you actually know people who ...
Jan 29th 2020
528
                          LOL
Jan 29th 2020
530
                          Don’t expect a direct answer to your question lol
Jan 29th 2020
532
                               I said "LOL" and then vex wrote fanfic about...something
Jan 29th 2020
535
                          Pat Cipollone over here.
Jan 29th 2020
531
                Yep
Jan 29th 2020
518
Bern #1 in NH poll
Jan 29th 2020
506
Biden leads in Iowa, with Sanders in close second
Jan 29th 2020
517
The second choice thing could be critical.
Jan 29th 2020
519
      That was my takeaway
Jan 29th 2020
520
      I'm looking forward to the tweetstorms calling the Iowa party snakes.
Jan 29th 2020
524
           lol
Jan 29th 2020
526
      thats a good point
Jan 29th 2020
521
      wrong again:
Feb 12th 2020
540
brown shirts (c) chuck todd
Feb 11th 2020
538
Report card time, once again (Oh how I love this)
Feb 12th 2020
539
I was 100% wrong on Biden. I thought he and Bernie would fight it out
Feb 12th 2020
541
      Respect.
Feb 12th 2020
542
           I’m not a Biden fan, just thought he had the best shot due to old whit...
Feb 12th 2020
543
                looks like Biden's firewall in South Carolina has already crumbled
Feb 14th 2020
544
^^^ Mijente endorses Sanders
Feb 20th 2020
548
#yosoyunbro
Feb 20th 2020
549
      #bermanos
Feb 20th 2020
550
           fuck i kinda love it. #sisepuede
Feb 20th 2020
552
           Berniefoos
Feb 20th 2020
554
                https://images.app.goo.gl/zqea7vCEnUf2uLjQ6
Feb 20th 2020
556
                     lol u stupid, foo
Feb 20th 2020
557
                     lol u stupid, foo
Feb 20th 2020
558
                     #holmesnotfoo
Feb 20th 2020
559
           this could catch on
Feb 20th 2020
555
Warren flips on Super PACs
Feb 20th 2020
551
About what we should expect from a former Republican..
Feb 20th 2020
553
bernie supporters who clown 'establishment' dems for blaming russia
Feb 20th 2020
560
thats called a bernie hawk 900º
Feb 20th 2020
561
nice.
Feb 20th 2020
562
its astonishing to witness, man
Feb 20th 2020
563
okay, educate me a bit
Feb 20th 2020
564
RE: okay, educate me a bit
Feb 21st 2020
581
if you notice...he doesnt really have any slick/witty answers
Feb 20th 2020
565
      Bernie is best when he is able to say “I wrote the damn bill” over a...
Feb 20th 2020
567
      and again we should all be concerned about winning
Feb 21st 2020
582
the article in your link actually says...FB deactivated accounts
Feb 21st 2020
569
Interesting catch. Should his campaign prioritize and allocate
Feb 21st 2020
570
How Sway!?!
Feb 21st 2020
575
      I'm playing devil's advocate, because his critics keep saying he's
Feb 21st 2020
579
lol right.
Feb 21st 2020
572
The article says "some of the most divisive tweets and memes..."
Feb 21st 2020
577
      Pete’s campaign did appear to be compromised by it’s
Feb 21st 2020
580
Sanders briefed by U.S. off. that Russia is trying to help his pres camp...
Feb 21st 2020
583
      "Russia *might* be trying again..." (c) Bernie ...he says...
Feb 21st 2020
584
i didn't watch the entire debate but warren
Feb 20th 2020
566
Agreed, bowser, London breed (sf), and Stacy Abrams all looking
Feb 21st 2020
571
He basically gave them hush money.
Feb 21st 2020
573
Talk of a brokered convention is heating up
Feb 20th 2020
568
thats unfortunate
Feb 21st 2020
574
Scared Bernie will win and show up on Wall St like this
Feb 21st 2020
576
lmao
Feb 21st 2020
578
they're planting the seed so that the dum-dums will go along with it
Feb 21st 2020
585
The one thing I do like about Sanders's messaging:
Feb 22nd 2020
586

walihorse
Member since Aug 03rd 2006
15781 posts
Tue Aug-20-19 11:49 AM

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1. "I like both"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

but comparing Warren and Sanders, 2 things for me make her more appealing.

1) she is younger. Nothing against Sander for being older, but She couldn't last longer into a hopefully 2nd term.

2) Her energy. She looks like she is busting her ass and enjoying it.

If a fat guy falls in the woods and there is no one around to see it, do the trees laugh?

  

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Vex_id
Charter member
64013 posts
Tue Aug-20-19 12:00 PM

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2. "RE: I like both"
In response to Reply # 1


          

>but comparing Warren and Sanders, 2 things for me make her
>more appealing.
>
>1) she is younger. Nothing against Sander for being older, but
>She couldn't last longer into a hopefully 2nd term.
>
>2) Her energy. She looks like she is busting her ass and
>enjoying it.

Warren really has been out there with potent vigor on the trail. I've seen her twice up North and she definitely is up for the fight. That's definitely appealing.


-->

  

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Walleye
Charter member
14691 posts
Tue Aug-20-19 12:38 PM

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6. "Fair, but he's spry as hell"
In response to Reply # 1


          

Having a catch with his grandson. WHOLESOME!

https://twitter.com/IAStartingLine/status/1163595862309838853

______________________________

"Walleye, a lot of things are going to go wrong in your life that technically aren't your fault. Always remember that this doesn't make you any less of an idiot"

--Walleye's Dad

  

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kfine
Member since Jan 11th 2009
1210 posts
Tue Aug-20-19 12:26 PM

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3. "This Pew Research chart is THE most comprehensive comparison I've seen"
In response to Reply # 0


          


of the top Dem primary candidates, and helps put things in perspective immensely:

https://www.people-press.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/4/2019/08/PP_2019.08.16_2020-democratic-candidates_0-03-1.png


(note: chart is from this article)
https://www.pewresearch.org/2019/08/16/most-democrats-are-excited-by-several-2020-candidates-not-just-their-top-choice/


Also, this demographic analysis of candidate donors is really good too:

https://readsludge.com/2019/08/08/wealthy-white-and-over-50-the-demographics-of-the-democratic-presidential-donors/

  

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Vex_id
Charter member
64013 posts
Tue Aug-20-19 12:28 PM

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4. "Yes - it's excellent. That's the pew research cited in the OP"
In response to Reply # 3


          

Thanks for linking.

-->

  

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kfine
Member since Jan 11th 2009
1210 posts
Tue Aug-20-19 01:17 PM

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11. "np! I suspected as much :)"
In response to Reply # 4


          

  

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mista k5
Member since Feb 01st 2006
11757 posts
Tue Aug-20-19 12:34 PM

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5. "thats a big percentage of black/latino voters that are undecided"
In response to Reply # 3


  

          

  

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kfine
Member since Jan 11th 2009
1210 posts
Tue Aug-20-19 01:20 PM

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12. "EXACTLY. I think the MSM has been reporting black voter sentiment wrong"
In response to Reply # 5


          


this entire time.

Contrary to most reports, based on the analyses I linked above I don't see "any" candidates with a super diverse coalition with respect to race aside from Biden, whose support we have to take with a grain of salt because it's all folks 50+.

What I REALLY think is happening, especially with respect to black voters, is ambivalence. Looking at the Pew data, black voters are overwhelmingly represented as undecided, even in their breakout among religious voters. I think the media has been misinterpreting the data. Black voters don't necessarily hate Warren or Buttigieg or whoever.. it's that non-Biden supporting black dems aren't lining up behind anyone yet. Meaning they're very much still in play.

To put things in further perspective, Kamala and Booker have marginal leads in black donor support (just over 7% and 2%, respectively, while the rest of the field is 1% or less), but even their donor bases are still overwhelmingly white.

  

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mista k5
Member since Feb 01st 2006
11757 posts
Tue Aug-20-19 01:28 PM

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14. "i think youre right"
In response to Reply # 12


  

          

i guess the question is how set these older white voters are. its the biggest voting block right? if the undecided minority voters all chose the same candidate it wouldnt be enough to offset the older white voters sticking with biden. i think.

  

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Vex_id
Charter member
64013 posts
Tue Aug-20-19 12:39 PM

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7. "Also interesting: Tulsi/Yang/Castro have largest % of non-white donors"
In response to Reply # 3


          

So Tulsi's not being buoyed by Richard Spencer and Vladimir Putin.

Who knew.

-->

  

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reaction
Member since Aug 09th 2019
130 posts
Tue Aug-20-19 12:51 PM

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8. "They are not the same!"
In response to Reply # 0


          

What people don't get about this is that Warren WILL NOT DO WHAT SHE IS PROPOSING / WILL PIVOT TO THE CENTER. Like Obama she is mostly talk and will make a few incremental changes and that's it. Obama not following through on his progressive promises and stacking his cabinet with Citigroup suggestions https://wikileaks.org/podesta-emails/emailid/8190 are the things that LED TO TRUMP. People just don't seem to want to see it, it is very frustrating.

Warren has a huge list of red flags, this tweet has a good summary of a few https://twitter.com/PollyTickal/status/1163203049348710401?s=20

Bernie released probably the most comprehensive criminal justice reform plan in history the other day and I posted it in the other thread and nobody said a thing. The points in there are what people in here have been wanting for decades and silence.

If people want to see anything remotely like that actually implemented Sanders is the only one with the movement, the fight, the activism and the conviction to do it. I GUARANTEE Warren pivots in the general, she already said she'll take corporate money. Campaign to the left, govern to the right, don't fall for it for the 4080'th time.

  

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Vex_id
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9. "I think you are right in the sense that Warren will pivot"
In response to Reply # 8


          

to the Center if elected. After all - she did throw her weight behind Clinton despite seemingly far more ideologically aligned with Sanders. (Incidentally, Tulsi is the only candidate running who was a Sanders delegate. All of the others were with Clinton).

I strongly prefer Sanders, but Warren would be about as good as it's going to get for Progressives outside of a Sanders nomination. That said - it's entirely fair to reference the red flags that you mention.

Also, further to your point of them not being the same, their current respective support base show stark differences in terms of who is supporting them. They aren't even gunning for the same primary voters right now.

-->

  

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reaction
Member since Aug 09th 2019
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Tue Aug-20-19 01:10 PM

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10. "RE: I think you are right in the sense that Warren will pivot"
In response to Reply # 9


          

You are right about the different demographics but it is largely the media creation that they are the same that I'm fighting against. They are doing that in order to get people to leave Bernie because Warren is so much more palatable to the elites. One example is this article in the LA Times yesterday:

https://www.latimes.com/politics/story/2019-08-17/a-tale-of-two-rallies-elizabeth-warren-bernie-sanders-have-similar-ideas-different-paths-to-victory

Also in the Emerson poll of Colorado that came out today with Bernie in the lead https://emersonpolling.reportablenews.com/pr/colorado-2020-sanders-biden-and-warren-lead-democratic-field-democrats-look-to-gain-senate-seat they had a breakdown:

2016 Clinton voters: 45% for Biden, 21% Warren, 14% Harris, 4% Bernie

2016 Bernie voters: 53% for Bernie, 24% Warren, 9% Biden, 3% Harris

So she is obviously the one taking the most from him. Plus the anecdotal small poll on OKP has Warren now way in the lead of Bernie. People need to ask themselves why the media is pushing for Warren, what could be in it for them and why are people falling for it?

  

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Vex_id
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17. "Without question, Bernie is most unpalatable for big media/elites"
In response to Reply # 10


          

One thing I've also noted from 2016 Bernie voters (who now support Warren) is that many of them cited that they were tired of the negative connotations (created by corporate media) of being a Bernie voter. So some of them are actually supporting Warren over Bernie because of some social/peer pressure so as to not be marginalized by Democratic party norms. I see that in my home state quite a bit - particularly at the local level where the state party is in line with the DNC and there is a (not so hidden) directive to support anyone but Bernie in 2020.

Also of interest re: Warren -- she was fully vetted as a VP to Clinton and would've accepted the role:

https://www.politico.com/story/2019/07/25/warren-hillary-clinton-vice-president-1435422

Many people (myself included) feel that this was the typical Clinton political chess move - to dangle a VP role for Warren in exchange for a Clinton endorsement (as a Warren endorsement would've been worth quite a bit for Sanders in 2016).

Regardless, it shows that Warren was and is prone to political calculation over principle.

-->

  

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reaction
Member since Aug 09th 2019
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Tue Aug-20-19 03:01 PM

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18. "RE: Without question, Bernie is most unpalatable for big media/elites"
In response to Reply # 17


          

>One thing I've also noted from 2016 Bernie voters (who now
>support Warren) is that many of them cited that they were
>tired of the negative connotations (created by corporate
>media) of being a Bernie voter.

How disheartening is that? The corporations win again, yay!

>Regardless, it shows that Warren was and is prone to political
>calculation over principle.

Exactly!

  

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kayru99
Member since Jan 26th 2004
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Tue Aug-20-19 02:00 PM

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16. "Yup. "
In response to Reply # 8


          

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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19. "The idea that Warren is some corporate shill is ridiculous to me. "
In response to Reply # 8


  

          


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

  

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Vex_id
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22. "I think that's hyperbolic. I haven't seen anyone state that"
In response to Reply # 19


          

at least not here.

I like a lot about Warren. Certainly preferable (for me) to Biden/Harris/Pete/Beto etc... That said, she has shown a lack of originality and courage on foreign policy - which is an area that desperately needs attention after the Trump admin.'s trashing around the world. Bernie's foreign policy is far more nuanced, cogent and progressive than Warren's - and that's an essential focus of one's job as President.

Obviously there are many reasons why voters prefer Warren over Sanders - but if you're speaking on Progressive credentials - they really aren't the same, at all.

-->

  

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kfine
Member since Jan 11th 2009
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Tue Aug-20-19 01:26 PM

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13. "There's lots of bad stats being parroted imho, about multiple candidates"
In response to Reply # 0
Tue Aug-20-19 01:35 PM by kfine

          

lol

The only things that appear to be somewhat decisive (to me anyway) are:

*Sanders support is bolstered mostly by young millenials/gen z, although Warren is competitive (and I believe Biden's entry and extraction of Sanders' boomer supporters has probably been the single most crippling blow to Sanders' campaign and electoral chances).

*Biden has the largest and broadest coalition with respect to race, education level and faith, but is bolstered overwhelmingly by older/boomer supporters and the religious.

*Warren and Buttigieg appeal is strongly correlated with higher education level.


The WORST claim I've seen repeated over and over, often in defense of Sanders, is that Buttigieg's donor base is the wealthiest (if we are considering $100,000+ p.a. to be exporbitantly wealthy... which some GS-13s and GS-14s might certainly question lol). Looking at the donor analysis I posted above (I'll link here again):

https://readsludge.com/2019/08/08/wealthy-white-and-over-50-the-demographics-of-the-democratic-presidential-donors/

one sees that ridiculous claim is based on a comparison of ABSOLUTE SUMS (i.e. the headcounts, or raw numbers) as opposed to an adjusted comparison such as the PROPORTION of donors who are high income. Comparing the headcounts/numbers of high income donors is misleading, and Buttigieg led the field in fundraising in 2Q so it is not beyond the realm of reason he would have high headcounts across income levels.

To put it in perspective, second to Buttigieg in highest "number" of high income donors was none other than Bernie Sanders - the socialist millionaire extraordinaire himself - who ALSO led the field in overall donor headcount:

1) Pete Buttigieg (4932)
2) Bernie Sanders (3802)
3) Kamala Harris (3625)
4) Joe Biden (3234)
5) Elizabeth Warren (3036)

Funny how math works. But if one looks at the chart where the PROPORTION of high income donors is compared as opposed to absolute sums, than the rankings are irrecognizably different:

1) Cory Booker (78%)
2) John Delaney (77%)
3) Michael Bennet (76%)
4) Kirsten Gillibrand (73%)
5) Kamala Harris (70%)

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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Tue Aug-20-19 01:47 PM

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15. "I think these numbers now don't mean much"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

I speak to so many black people and ask them who they like and they say Biden almost reflectively. And they are almost always low engagement type of folks. I would go out on a limb and say that a large portion of the 29% Biden folks are not super engaged (e.g., Haven't watched a debate). I would say that's also true for the undecided black folks.

The difference of black supporters between Warren and Sanders is minor now.

A time will come when low engagement folks will get a look at Warren and Sanders side by side and make a choice. These folks won't care who came up with the ideas first. Or that Hillary did Bernie wrong supposedly or even that Warren endorsed Hillary over Bernie.

I think in that match up, Warren is a far more appealing and attractive candidate.


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

  

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mista k5
Member since Feb 01st 2006
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Tue Aug-20-19 04:14 PM

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20. "yeah but how do you explain this?"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ECba7qqUcAIcQFs?format=jpg&name=small

  

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Vex_id
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Tue Aug-20-19 04:30 PM

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21. ""Stronger Together" ? "
In response to Reply # 20


          


-->

  

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Trinity444
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Tue Aug-20-19 06:37 PM

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23. "I see you Vex "
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

...

  

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Vex_id
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Wed Aug-21-19 10:16 AM

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24. "in the spirit of the Matrix 4...."
In response to Reply # 23


          

Thanks Trin.

-->

  

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Trinity444
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Wed Aug-21-19 07:35 PM

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25. "HA! "
In response to Reply # 24


  

          

nice

  

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Reeq
Member since Mar 11th 2013
8242 posts
Thu Aug-22-19 03:25 PM

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26. "warren edges out sanders imo. the age demos doom bernie."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

a little while ago...sanders surrogates were lashing out at unfavorable polls...saying they oversampled voters 50+ yrs old. but who do you think votes in primaries?

going by those pew crosstabs...

bernie dominates the age group that votes least in primaries then drops off precipitously among the groups that actually turn out. its pretty striking how bad he does with the 50+ crowd.

warren is doing really well with college educated voters too...who are also more likely to vote in primaries.

shes also killing bernie in the liberal and very liberal demos. if bernie cant count on *those* voters then who can he count on?

plus traditionally...1 of the top 2 candidates at the beginning of the race tends to fall out of the top 2. seeing how durable bidens lead has been so far...and the upward trajectory of warren...it looks like bernie is the odd man out.

i think the most likely outcome right now is that bernie and warren split the 'anti-biden' vote and biden limps in on the strength of residual obama coalition voters and older culturally displaced white mod/cons democrats.

this is just a purely academic guess based on the polling and not enthusiasm, fundraising, campaign quality, ground game, etc.

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kfine
Member since Jan 11th 2009
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Thu Aug-22-19 04:15 PM

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28. "You know what? My hunch is Sanders doesn't do "poorly" with 50+ per se, "
In response to Reply # 26
Thu Aug-22-19 04:17 PM by kfine

          

just that when Biden finally entered the race he stole his Boomer lunch (lol), for lack of a better term.

Remember how Sanders was leading by double digits before Biden announced? I think Biden announced and literally stole those entire bars from Bernie's chart.

Tbh my hunch was actually reinforced further by one of "your" links in that other poll post:

https://board.okayplayer.com/okp.php?az=show_topic&forum=4&topic_id=13342507&mesg_id=13342507&page=#13344066

where you shared the figure from that poll where the top 2nd choice of both Biden and Sanders supporters was each other. I think it's STRICTLY Boomers converging on Biden and Sanders.

There's a few analyses floating around that show Sanders seems to have the most fiercely loyal supporters, but that's "now"... and I believe comprised mostly of his Millenial/Gen Z supporters.

I saw a figure elsewhere (I wish I could remember, I'd link it for sure) where it showed that Sanders also leads the field in supporters that voice NO 2nd choice or are undecided on a 2nd choice. Again, I think those are Bernie's Millenials/Gen Z supporters (who seem to be attracted mostly by ideology, as opposed to his Boomer supporters... who are probably just on some Boomer shit).

Boomers seem to be rooting almost exclusively for other Boomers; mostly 1)Biden 2) Sanders and 3) Warren (the donor analysis I linked above shows a surprisingly large proportion of Warren's donors have been 65+)

>
>going by those pew crosstabs...
>
>bernie dominates the age group that votes least in primaries
>then drops off precipitously among the groups that actually
>turn out. its pretty striking how bad he does with the 50+
>crowd.
>

  

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Reeq
Member since Mar 11th 2013
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Thu Aug-22-19 05:15 PM

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30. "iono fam lol. it tracks with some tangible voter behavior we have imo."
In response to Reply # 28


  

          

https://twitter.com/Grace_Segers/status/1113081309927178242
---------
A majority of donors to Bernie Sanders campaign are under age 39. Teachers are the profession with most number of donors.
---------

thats a pretty astounding stat.

the majority of bernie donors being from an age demo that doesnt particularly turn out strong in the primaries really spells out his struggles this go round.

hes obviously energizing the youth. hes not doing anywhere near as good a job with the folks who actually cast the votes.


>Remember how Sanders was leading by double digits before Biden
>announced? I think Biden announced and literally stole those
>entire bars from Bernie's chart.
>
>Tbh my hunch was actually reinforced further by one of "your"
>links in that other poll post:
>
>https://board.okayplayer.com/okp.php?az=show_topic&forum=4&topic_id=13342507&mesg_id=13342507&page=#13344066
>
>where you shared the figure from that poll where the top 2nd
>choice of both Biden and Sanders supporters was each other. I
>think it's STRICTLY Boomers converging on Biden and Sanders.

i think a lot of what you detail here boils down to name recognition too. bernie and biden are the only previously-known national figures in the race (a large reason for starting out top 2). so a lot of casual 'low info' voters recognize them more than the others. so i think its a case of people just going with the next known quantity (even tho they are at completely different ends of the spectrum).

meanwhile...the lesser known candidates (whose needle is moved further by better-informed and more-educated voters who drill down on politics) actually make more sense. warren voters choose sanders (progressive). kamala/p booty voters choose liz (basically candidate quality over name value).


>Boomers seem to be rooting almost exclusively for other
>Boomers; mostly 1)Biden 2) Sanders and 3) Warren (the donor
>analysis I linked above shows a surprisingly large proportion
>of Warren's donors have been 65+)

why do you think sanders isnt at least in 2nd place among older voters? warren almost doubles him in 50+ and quadruples his support in 65+.

it seems kinda hard to say bernie isnt struggling with older voters when *warren* also does better than him in both age groups over 50 (especially 65+). its an even bigger red flag imo when you figure those groups are the most socially conservative and shes doing better running to the left of bernie on many issues and is also a woman.

imo...bernie is running a more activist-centric campaign which plays well to radical-change-oriented young voters but is constricting his appeal. warren is doing a better job of connecting more with progressives in general (liberal/very liberal voters) and also older retirees, parents, etc.

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kfine
Member since Jan 11th 2009
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Thu Aug-22-19 06:37 PM

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31. "Lol, I hear you. All good points. And to your question re: Sanders' lag:"
In response to Reply # 30
Thu Aug-22-19 06:54 PM by kfine

          

>
>why do you think sanders isnt at least in 2nd place among
>older voters? warren almost doubles him in 50+ and quadruples
>his support in 65+.
>
>it seems kinda hard to say bernie isnt struggling with older
>voters when *warren* also does better than him in both age
>groups over 50 (especially 65+). its an even bigger red flag
>imo when you figure those groups are the most socially
>conservative and shes doing better running to the left of
>bernie on many issues and is also a woman.
>


Hmmm, well.. if Biden's and Bernie's "Boomer base" converges as tightly as I suspect it does, then they're literally fighting for the same exact set of Boomers and it's possible those specific Boomers strongly prefer Biden?

Like when there was no Biden, Bernie was their guy. But once Biden committed... lol.

And it's possible the "Biden-Bernie" Boomer set doesn't overlap with Warren's Boomer base - like at all - which might insulate her from Biden-Bernie tectonics?? I could definitely see that.

Straight up conjuecture though, lol. I don't think there's much data on this tbh.


Another theory is: assuming Bernie might attract the most prickly/angry/anti-establishment Boomers, perhaps such Boomers defected from Bernie to 45?? There is the weird "horsheshoe" to account for after all:

https://www.npr.org/2017/08/24/545812242/1-in-10-sanders-primary-voters-ended-up-supporting-trump-survey-finds

Maybe as the Dem primary became more and more of a circus, there were some defections. And (to my knowledge) the only top-tier Dem primary candidate that's been shown to share supporters with 45 is Sanders. I haven't seen any demographic breakdowns of the horsehoe, but it's a possibility I guess..

  

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kfine
Member since Jan 11th 2009
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Thu Aug-22-19 06:53 PM

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32. "Hmm, you just made me think of another thing too:"
In response to Reply # 30
Thu Aug-22-19 07:06 PM by kfine

          

>
>meanwhile...the lesser known candidates (whose needle is moved
>further by better-informed and more-educated voters who drill
>down on politics) actually make more sense. warren voters
>choose sanders (progressive). kamala/p booty voters choose
>liz (basically candidate quality over name value).
>

SO LITTLE is known about the supporter composition of most of the LOWER-tier candidates. (The donor analysis I linked above is some of the little data I've seen).

We might joke now and view lower-tier candidates as non-factors, but those small percentages will add tf up as dropouts occur. It would be helpful if the media/pollsterati could actually do its job and get a sense of where these abandoned supporters will migrate to. Like who are THEIR supporters' 2nd choices, you know what I mean?

For example, Inslee dropped out this week. According to that donor analysis I linked above, he had the 4th highest proportion of Boomer donors after Warren (even though he's polling <1% according to RCP https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2020/president/us/2020_democratic_presidential_nomination-6730.html). Still, I wonder who Inslee's folks will support now? In fact, when I look at the lower tiers and just try to guess what higher-tier candidates everyone's abandoned supporters might flock to, I mostly end up with a sprinkling of:

*Biden (he might get the lower-tier centrists' supporters i.e. Delaney, Ryan, Bennet, Bullock etc, which is maybe 3% or so and negligible to his lead);

*Sanders (he'd probably get most of Tulsi's supporters if/when she drops, plus some pickups from Yang and maybe Beto?? Either way maybe he picks up 3-4%)

*and most interestingly Warren. She's the most popular 2nd choice across the board for most Dem voters:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-08-16/o-rourke-pushes-to-combat-white-supremacy-guns-campaign-update

And most critically, as per your link I referenced above, she's the top 2nd choice for the REMAINDER of the top-tier polling below her (i.e. Harris and Buttigieg). So if THEY were to drop out, Warren could pick up like 10+ percentage points, which would likely help her overtake Sanders (even with his dropout gains) and even put her neck-and-neck with Biden. And that's before factoring in the few percentage points she might pick up from dropouts by folks like Booker, Castro, Gillibrand, etc. (whose supporters I reeally don't see overlapping with Biden or Sanders).

Again, all conjecture. But plausible conjecture lol

That said... I'd be willing to bet delegate support follows an entirely different distribution than the polls, which could matter a great deal.




  

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reaction
Member since Aug 09th 2019
130 posts
Fri Aug-23-19 08:55 AM

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35. "I think you might be neglecting the media"
In response to Reply # 32


          

Bernie has always done very poorly with people over 50 and especially with people 65+ and it just so happens those demographics are the ones who watch and read traditional media the most. And who does traditional media smear or discredit or ignore the most, Bernie, and who do they fawn over and prop up the most, Warren and Biden. That has a large effect on those demographics.

https://www.salon.com/2019/08/16/memo-to-mainstream-journalists-can-the-phony-outrage-bernie-is-right-about-bias/

  

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kfine
Member since Jan 11th 2009
1210 posts
Fri Aug-23-19 11:06 AM

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36. "Nah, I'm sorry but that's bullshit. Sanders has some of the HIGHEST "
In response to Reply # 35
Fri Aug-23-19 11:13 AM by kfine

          

RATED MSM town halls. Wasn't his Fox News town hall the most watch ever for a presidential candidate or something like that?? Yall need to stop with this press is the enemy of the people ass argument(which, btw, we've seen before hint hint).

Furthermore, Sanders hasn't even experienced ANY major news-cycle-dominating scandals like for example Biden (the groping), Buttigieg (the contentious city town hall and soundbites), Kamala (her clash with ADOS), or even Clinton(the servers/emails, Benghazi, her husband's crime bill), etc. One can confidently say Sanders has more or less experienced the typical, garden variety, sometimes-good-sometimes-not-so-good coverage as any politician with some name recognition. Like even if he's taken some jabs from the pundits (which I'm not saying he hasn't), my point is his competitors have definitely received a LOT worse, both now and in 2016. The media treats him fine.

I think at some point yall need to accept that maybe, just maybe lol, some people listen to what Bernie and his supporters are talking about and DON'T LIKE IT.

For example, the authoritatian themes in this pro-Bernie Jacobin piece published earlier this year:

https://www.jacobinmag.com/2019/02/a-plan-to-win-socialism-in-america

COMPLETELY reinforced my aversion to the entire movement, even though I may agree on the need for reform in some areas. Again, the above is a piece PROMOTING Sanders and the DemSoc agenda, NOT criticizing it.

Like... I used to joke about Sanders' authoritarian tone, but combine his tone with the way his supporters literally try to pimpslap anybody who doesn't worship Bernie into supporting their cause.. it all just confirms my fear that Sanders and many of his supporters are essentially trying to exploit Democratic Party infrastructure to install a socialist dictatorship in America. Like, imagine receiving this degree of contempt from "within" one's own party:

"Sanders should also use the bully pulpit of the presidency to support primary challengers against obstructionist Democrats. Many representatives are merely careerists who will acquiesce to a leftist program if it is a choice between that or irrelevance. But a core of ideological centrists should be dislodged entirely — if only to set an example for the rest that they would pay a higher price for obstructing progress than they will for upsetting their former corporate masters."

..???

  

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Reeq
Member since Mar 11th 2013
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Sun Aug-25-19 03:45 PM

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43. "sis these people are crazy. sounding straight up like trump supporters."
In response to Reply # 36


  

          

its a straight up cult at this point. basically anybody that doesnt kneel at the feet of saint bernie is a mortal enemy.

just aimlessly spraying at everybody now. democrats, any non bernie bro liberal with a check mark on twitter, washington post, msnbc. shit now theyre attacking dailykos and elizabeth warren as neoliberal establishment shills! lmao.

do they even attack republicans anymore? (serious question)

------

  

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ConcreteCharlie
Member since Nov 21st 2002
71216 posts
Sun Aug-25-19 05:25 PM

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47. "The link is not bullshit, FAIR is a solid assessor of such things but ....."
In response to Reply # 36


  

          

I see Sanders getting a mostly fair shake with some exceptions, and that's true of most of the candidates in the field. He seems to be losing steam because 1) there is another progressive in the field and they are taking votes from each other and 2) he's four years older now.

At some point it'll be beneficial if Warren and Sanders somehow align themselves, because failing that I don't think either will win the nomination.

And you will know MY JACKET IS GOLD when I lay my vengeance upon thee.

  

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Vex_id
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Fri Aug-23-19 07:46 AM

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33. "So now drawing from a diverse electorate is largely negligible? "
In response to Reply # 26


          

Lizzy support base is whiter than virtually all of the other top tier candidates - and considerably whiter (and more male) than Bernie's - but now that's not really a factor as long as she has college educated and "liberal" voters?

No "Lizzy Bro" narrative?

lol boy how things have changed.


-->

  

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Reeq
Member since Mar 11th 2013
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42. "oh is this just about diversity for diversitys sake "
In response to Reply # 33
Sun Aug-25-19 04:00 PM by Reeq

  

          

or is it about winning an election?

maybe i misinterpreted your post.

i mean...its cool to draw from a diverse crowd. but if that diverse crowd is primarily among an age group that hardly votes...then whats the point?

plus...im not sure bernies demo breakdown is all that noteworthy (going by the pew crosstabs). warren crushes him with white voters (like 65% of ballots cast in the primary). they are virtually tied among latinos.

he beats warren with black voters but theyre both in single digits. he is virtually tied with kamala among black voters...which can go a few ways. on one (superficial) hand...he is tied with a black woman. on the other...he is tied with a much lesser known candidate who many black people have already come out against because of her prosecutorial record. for bernie...a national figure at the forefront of the dem party...to be polling closer to warren and harris than he is to another national figure in biden...thats not exactly a good thing imo.

as far as there being no 'lizzy bro' narrative...i havent seen her supporters relentlessly attacking women, minorities, liberal cable news hosts/guests...freedom fighters like john lewis, dolores huerta, etc. you seem to think they earned the bernie bro moniker/reputation simply because they were white men?

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Vex_id
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49. "since when does drawing from a diverse electorate "
In response to Reply # 42
Mon Aug-26-19 11:40 AM by Vex_id

          

in a democratic primary *not* speak to electability?

the goalpost moving is absurd. Both Sanders & Warren are polling within the margin of error and essentially running neck & neck and flanking Biden *fast*. Given that, it makes great sense to back the candidate who has shown more of an ability to attract democratic primary voters from across the political spectrum - *especially* when that candidate has shown time and time again through all reputable polling to topple Trump in a general.

Now, as stated in the OP - I've been a Warren fan for some time and would gladly support her as the Dem nominee - but we don't see that same level of enthusiasm for Sanders from the Dem establishment. Instead, we still see erroneous narratives (such as the Bernie Bro non-sense that you're *still* peddling) -- so why is that? People still butthurt over the "Bernie's not a real Democrat" narrative?

In terms of the black vote - there's really no credible way to criticize Sanders there. As you stated, he's essentially tied with Kamala on the black vote and only second to Biden. No matter how you slice that, it's a marked success for the Sanders campaign coming out of the 2016 primary where they struggled with that demographic. They've done considerable work to shore up that vote and they should be credited for it. Yet you can't even give him credit on that.

>as far as there being no 'lizzy bro' narrative...i havent seen
>her supporters relentlessly attacking women, minorities,
>liberal cable news hosts/guests...freedom fighters like john
>lewis, dolores huerta, etc. you seem to think they earned the
>bernie bro moniker/reputation simply because they were white
>men?

Let's not be silly. Let's also accept that hardcore supporters can be annoying for *every* candidate. Surely we're not judging candidates based on some of their supporters, are we? But considering Bernie's campaign staff features more POC and reflects the American electorate more dynamically than any other campaign, the "bernie bro" reputation is only alive in the imagination of people still bitter from Hillary missing the wide open dunk (namely Neera Tanden types whom you still seem to give a pass).

Also - it's really misleading for you to say that "freedom fighters" and women are being attacked lol. Really cheap fam. Reminds me of Hillary voters who *swore* that Bernie was a misogynist creep in 2016. John Lewis called out Bernie for "not seeing him" during the civil rights marches (when it was verifiable and without dispute that Bernie was there and actively fighting for the civil rights movement). People (rightfully) called out John Lewis because he was disparaging Sanders while supporting Clinton - who was campaigning for Barry F'ing Goldwater (a segregationist against civil rights) at the exact same time. So, Bernie was there. Hillary was not - because she was on the other (wrong) side of history, which Lewis conveniently omitted from his non-nonsensical rant. Where they do that at fam?

Not like this.

  

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reaction
Member since Aug 09th 2019
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Thu Aug-22-19 03:45 PM

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27. "Krystal Ball: Elites have chosen Warren as The One"
In response to Reply # 0


          

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7vedsc92PA

"The white, wealthy liberals' shopping period has ended. They've found the candidate who makes them feel good, feel virtuous but with the populist flair that's in style this campaign season. With the perfect blend of Oklahoma roots but Ivy League connection with a speaking style that is elevated but just folksy enough to imagine someone outside of their milieu responding to it."

  

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Reeq
Member since Mar 11th 2013
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29. "lol first it was kamala, then beto, then mayor pete, now lizzy. "
In response to Reply # 27


  

          

the handpicked candidate coronation narrative doesnt work as well when the hand apparently keeps changing its pick.

just say yall dont like whoever is running against bernie lol.

if yall spent more time/energy promoting the positive aspects of bernie instead of crafting conspiracies and aaron sorkin screenplays to self-rationalize the support of other candidates ...he might actually be broadening his appeal and leading.

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kayru99
Member since Jan 26th 2004
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Fri Aug-23-19 08:17 AM

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34. "or they're just shit candidiates who've sucked on the campaign trail"
In response to Reply # 29


          

kamala's campagn team is historically stupid, cuz they're hillary's campaign team, which was historically stupid. Also, her record is terrible

Biden criminial justice record, economic record and dementia simply can't be hidden

Pete Booty can't run a town, and his record shows that

As much as media tries to push the bernie fanatic narrative, honestly what we are seeing is a tech saavy, educated populace researching the shitty candidates being put before them and saying "nah".

  

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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
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Fri Aug-23-19 11:18 AM

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37. "I fell for the Beto hype.. dude is a dud. "
In response to Reply # 34


          

No charisma. They tried it tho. Made him sound like a white Obama.

shut up already, damn

  

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ThaTruth
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Fri Aug-23-19 11:39 AM

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38. "Liz has been the "establishment" pick all along"
In response to Reply # 29


  

          

  

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Reeq
Member since Mar 11th 2013
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45. "the real treasure was the friends we made along the way?"
In response to Reply # 38
Sun Aug-25-19 03:58 PM by Reeq

  

          

.

------

  

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Teknontheou
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56. "It was Kamala in the beginning. The Establishment really REALLY "
In response to Reply # 38


  

          

wants to a woman to avenge Hillary - Kamala or Warrem will do, they don't care which.

  

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Dr Claw
Member since Jun 25th 2003
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78. "agreed in part"
In response to Reply # 56


  

          

>wants to a woman to avenge Hillary - Kamala or Warren will
>do, they don't care which.

I don't think they necessarily want "a woman". but they want to repeat that Obama electoral "magic", and initially Kamala seemed to check those boxes.

what the Democratic Party fails to realize is that the voter base got a lot smarter about the populist okey-doke post-Obama. Which is one reason Hillary took a L (she couldn't even fake that much. also, as I'll say until I'm gone from Earth -- state by state, the GOP CHEATED).

which brings me to Warren. She appears to have a left-of-everyone-except Sanders appeal. the allure (in the political calculus of Democrats) of a life-long Republican who flipped, and one who appears to sail past the kind of nitpicks that sank Hillary. she's competent. she doesn't make Biden-esque gaffes. she's also a little bit more careful in how she responds to certain critiques. she is talking that populist SHIT (see Obama).

with Warren, I would argue that one should watch her plans and responses to the status quo very closely. she seems to be arguing for a "kindler, gentler capitalism", which is music to the Democratic establishment's ears. for that reason alone I think the Dems are more welcoming of her, but she was far from their first choice, because of where she sits (or appears to sit) on the spectrum. The same was true of Obama in 2008.

IMO, I think Warren is playing the Obama game much better than Kamala ever did. It didn't look like that in the beginning but look like her now.

Not sure if any of the candidates EXCEPT Sanders also has the organizational wherewithal which REALLY took Obama over the top in 2008.

Yes, I'm mad. Let's move on.

Jays | Cavs | Eagles | Sabres | Tarheels

PSN: Dr_Claw_77 | XBL: Dr Claw 077 | FB: drclaw077 | T: @drclaw77 | http://thepeoplesvault.wordpress.com
Does he ACCEPT? http://i.imgur.com/TBMrAkD.jpg

  

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ConcreteCharlie
Member since Nov 21st 2002
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46. "I wanna agree with you wholeheartedly BUT things do change"
In response to Reply # 29


  

          

A lot of people want to back a winner, period, and/or are fickle AF.

A lot of weight was thrown behind people like Dean and Leiberman in the past. Even Clinton against Obama. Shit changes fast when you perform poorly. Nearly everyone in this field has performed poorly or average at best.

And you will know MY JACKET IS GOLD when I lay my vengeance upon thee.

  

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reaction
Member since Aug 09th 2019
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Fri Aug-23-19 12:43 PM

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39. "It's a red flag party!"
In response to Reply # 0


          

Elizabeth Warren is the darling of the Democratic consultant class
Isn’t that a red flag?

https://spectator.us/elizabeth-warren-darling-democratic-consultant-class/

  

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kayru99
Member since Jan 26th 2004
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Fri Aug-23-19 03:54 PM

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40. "once she announced that she's taking donor money in the"
In response to Reply # 39


          

general, their opinion of her completely switched.

  

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makaveli
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41. "You have interesting sources for a Bernie Bro"
In response to Reply # 39


  

          

“So back we go to these questions — friendship, character… ethics.”

  

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Reeq
Member since Mar 11th 2013
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44. "michael tracey? are you intentionally being a stereotype?"
In response to Reply # 39


  

          

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reaction
Member since Aug 09th 2019
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Mon Aug-26-19 11:06 AM

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48. "For those who need their sources & voices corporate approved"
In response to Reply # 44
Mon Aug-26-19 11:16 AM by reaction

          

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2019/08/elizabeth-warren-dnc-summer-meeting/596791/

The store is almost out of red flags!

  

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Dr Claw
Member since Jun 25th 2003
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50. "as a person who don't really fuck with the corporate media on certain to..."
In response to Reply # 48


  

          

...Tracey is polarizing for a reason. that dude comes off as trolling often.

  

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kayru99
Member since Jan 26th 2004
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Mon Aug-26-19 03:16 PM

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52. "yeah warren courting donors pretty much renders her policies moot"
In response to Reply # 48


          

or at least makes them as watery as possible.

  

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Vex_id
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51. "Welp - that didn't take long. Biden drops to 3rd"
In response to Reply # 0


          

Sanders & Warren vying for 1st (tied at ~20%).

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/biden-falls-in-new-democratic-primary-poll-as-warren-and-sanders-make-gains/2019/08/26/4373bef4-c814-11e9-a1fe-ca46e8d573c0_story.html

  

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Dr Claw
Member since Jun 25th 2003
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Mon Aug-26-19 03:28 PM

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53. "LOL... now to see what WaPo and 'em do in response"
In response to Reply # 51


  

          

Biden was out here sounding ridiculous.

  

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Teknontheou
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55. "The is THE opportunity for Kamala and Cory. If/when the Black "
In response to Reply # 53


  

          

church ladies in the Biblebelt accept or believe that Biden is no longer viable, I think they'll throw their support behind her or him before Warren.

  

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Vex_id
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60. "yup. Expect Kamala to come out swinging."
In response to Reply # 55


          

Might even see some of this in South Carolina in coming weeks:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O593YL-53dk

-->

  

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ConcreteCharlie
Member since Nov 21st 2002
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Mon Aug-26-19 07:34 PM

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63. "eh i could see apathy before siding with either of them"
In response to Reply # 55


  

          

booker can't move the needle with an 100 MPH gust of wind and harris can't seem to shake the fact that she was on the wrong side of so many things. i think she has a presidential air about her but she needs two more election cycles to rebrand if she wants to make it.

And you will know MY JACKET IS GOLD when I lay my vengeance upon thee.

  

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Vex_id
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61. "Right! I cited WaPo for irony's sake lol"
In response to Reply # 53


          


-->

  

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mista k5
Member since Feb 01st 2006
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54. "he cant drop fast enough"
In response to Reply # 51


  

          

i hope this continues.

based on the poll numbers it looks like people dropped biden for warren right? thats interesting. i figured warren gained a bit but the biden support would have gone to a moderate. i would guess the people that switched to warren did so because of the perceived electability.

if biden keeps dropping who else steps up to challenge warren and bernie? i cant imagine we go into voting with them two being the only realistic choice. i can hope though lol

  

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Teknontheou
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57. "Without having the numbers in front of me, I thought I saw that Bernie "
In response to Reply # 54


  

          

mainly siphoned off alot of Biden's support - it didn't really go to Warren.

If that's the case, that would be almost all white votes shifting around. Probably an outsize portion of Biden's remaining support of Black people. And like I mentioned above, once the signal gets out that Biden isn't as viable anymore and Black people dump him, he's toast.

  

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mista k5
Member since Feb 01st 2006
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Mon Aug-26-19 04:16 PM

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58. "upon further review it looks like they split it"
In response to Reply # 57


  

          

i was only looking at the early state numbers. overall it looks like both warren and sanders increased about 5% each and biden dropped 12% no big movement by anyone else.

  

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Vex_id
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59. "I still believe the Biden margin was bloated from the jump"
In response to Reply # 54
Mon Aug-26-19 05:12 PM by Vex_id

          

He was surely the Establishment hopeful because he really wasn't going to challenge much of the deep-rooted status quo infrastructure. He is a product of that and was going to just be "not Trump" - but thankfully - regardless of all the advantages in the world - he just ain't built for this at this stage in his life. Hell, you could argue he's never been built for this. He's essentially the Democratic Mitt Romney. People forget how quickly Obama dismembered him in 2008. Biden is still that same gaffe-prone, lack of substance type of guy, only older with (unfortunate) cognitive decline.

I'm not saying this to be cruel. I think Uncle Joe is a good dude at the end of the day - but he's had his time in the sun and he's simply not the guy to lead this next movement. Like at all.

>based on the poll numbers it looks like people dropped biden
>for warren right? thats interesting. i figured warren gained a
>bit but the biden support would have gone to a moderate. i
>would guess the people that switched to warren did so because
>of the perceived electability.

as you and Tek pointed out - looks like bernie & warren seemed split that Biden dropout vote (though it still seems a bit unclear to me). It would make sense to surmise that the Biden support would go to another moderate - but I don't think voters are really all that sophisticated. They likely were pro-Biden just because of the name and Obama nostalgia - and most voters don't get into policy very much at all and just vote on instinct. So I could see how Biden's support would go to a candidate really not all that ideologically aligned with him (not that Biden really has an ideology other than "hey I'm not Trump!")

>if biden keeps dropping who else steps up to challenge warren
>and bernie? i cant imagine we go into voting with them two
>being the only realistic choice. i can hope though lol

DNC definitely not gonna like this lol. Expect Kamala and her Clinton team to throw the full-court pressure on to try and fill the void in a last effort to get her back to "top tier" status. I think she's the only candidate who might be able to mount anything significant to challenge Warren or Bernie at this point. If it becomes inevitable that it will be a Bernie v. Warren race - expect the DNC to throw its entire weight behind Warren (as corporate donors/interests already have pledged to do).
-->

  

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mista k5
Member since Feb 01st 2006
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Mon Aug-26-19 05:17 PM

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62. "i guess its name recognition"
In response to Reply # 59


  

          

its been pointed out a few times on OKP. so many voters are going just off of name recognition at this point.

if biden was not so horrible i could see him holding his lead. it was scary to see him be so horrible and yet hold on to the lead. this poll gave me a little hope.

cant get too excited, its a single poll. if more polls show the same thing then we might have something. if this hold in future polls or keeps trending the same way then there will be grins lol

something else i took away from this poll is that bernie has a very good favorable rating. you wouldnt know it based on his critics and some media coverage. on the flip side, people are not ready to get rid of private insurance. can he explain his reasoning better and have people move his way?

i dont see harris sticking around. maybe i was swayed too much by her bad performance in the last debate. maybe she bounces back. i kind of want to see booker step up. my hope is that if there is a third contender they are under 30% of the votes so that bernie and warren splitting the progressive vote does not prevent both from getting the nomination.

  

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ConcreteCharlie
Member since Nov 21st 2002
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Mon Aug-26-19 07:36 PM

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64. "He is such trash"
In response to Reply # 54


  

          

less offensive than trump but still a painfully out of touch old guy that would make me cringe to have as president.

And you will know MY JACKET IS GOLD when I lay my vengeance upon thee.

  

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Vex_id
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Tue Sep-17-19 11:29 AM

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65. "Biden 32; Sanders 20; Warren 18 as of 9/16"
In response to Reply # 0


          

How long is this Biden veneer going to last?

-->

  

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Vex_id
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66. "y'all still think Biden got this or nah?"
In response to Reply # 0


          


-->

  

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Trinity444
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67. "we in trouble"
In response to Reply # 66


  

          

I’m not sold on anyone...

  

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Vex_id
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69. "RE: we in trouble"
In response to Reply # 67


          

>I’m not sold on anyone...

None of the 20+ candidates resonated with you at all?

-->

  

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stravinskian
Member since Feb 24th 2003
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Fri Oct-18-19 10:30 AM

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71. "NONE of the options are any good. "
In response to Reply # 69


          


The ones who'd be good presidents can't win a general election. The ones who could win a general election seem like they'd be shitty presidents. And for a few of them the fact that they'd be shitty presidents is moot because they also couldn't win a general election.

We might be going up against the weakest president in modern history, and we could very well lose because we have the weakest challenging field in modern history.

  

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mista k5
Member since Feb 01st 2006
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Fri Oct-18-19 10:37 AM

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72. "which ones would be good presidents?"
In response to Reply # 71


  

          

  

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stravinskian
Member since Feb 24th 2003
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Fri Oct-18-19 10:55 AM

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73. "Warren."
In response to Reply # 72


          

.... uhhhhhhhhh ....


Maybe Kamala.


Maybe Castro.


Probably Biden. If he can find a way to completely avoid talking.


Maybe our best bet is a life-size cardboard cutout of Joe Biden giving his best minimally creepy smile.

  

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Trinity444
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80. "no one, Vex "
In response to Reply # 69


  

          

I’m not excited about any, so focus of Trump that I haven’t paid enough attention to them. that ain’t good...

What’s the issue with Warren’s healthcare?

  

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Vex_id
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82. "RE: no one, Vex "
In response to Reply # 80


          

>I’m not excited about any, so focus of Trump that I
>haven’t paid enough attention to them. that ain’t good...

We are definitely in a delicate time. The focus on Trump by the media has been an egregious instance of journalistic malpractice, but of course it rakes in revenue so they'll continue to cover the circus disproportionately to what's happening in the primary.

>What’s the issue with Warren’s healthcare?

There is no issue from my perspective. She's been getting criticized by the center-right candidates (Mayor Pete/Klobuchar) who are desperately flailing and seeking to compete - by saying that her MFA plan is unsound and even unAmerican (because it takes away private insurance). There is some legitimacy to the criticism in that she hasn't come out to clearly and definitively define how taxes will be raised in order to achieve universal coverage - but most of the criticism is unfounded and in defense of the insurance/pharma lobbies, respectively.



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Trinity444
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87. "Im following you..."
In response to Reply # 82


  

          

what are your thought on her not releasing the details?
Bernie too tho, right?

  

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stravinskian
Member since Feb 24th 2003
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68. "It's Biden or Warren at this point. "
In response to Reply # 66


          


But Warren's ahead.

  

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Vex_id
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70. "Do you honestly think Biden is going to be a factor this time next year?"
In response to Reply # 68


          

I'd actually wager that he won't even be in the race in 10 months.

I think it's going to be a photo-finish between Warren & Sanders - but I'd almost hate for that to happen to where the SuperDelegates determine the primary. That would cripple momentum leading into a General where all hands need to be on deck vs. Trump.


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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
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Fri Oct-18-19 11:11 AM

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75. "Nah... Biden is going to be around until the end. "
In response to Reply # 70


          

shut up already, damn

  

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kfine
Member since Jan 11th 2009
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Fri Oct-18-19 11:28 AM

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76. "Interesting optimism re: Biden. His campaign's basically a failed enterp..."
In response to Reply # 75


          


at this point:

https://time.com/5701941/bidens-fundraising-front-runner/

I tend to disagree with all of yall on various issues lol but on this I do agree with Vex in that I'll be surprised if he lasts into next year.

He's one of the only top-tier candidates who spent more than he raised last quarter, and he only has $9M on hand. Plus he more than any other top-tier candidate has depended on high/max contribution donors - who can't be tapped again. And his base is concentrated to Boomers.. he's not really picking up folks from other demographics.

*shrug* I don't really see how he even sustains his campaign organization (salaries/personnel, infrastructure, travel, ads/marketing, etc) to maintain his lead if his finances continue on this path. It's basically going bankrupt... while the rest of the top-tier is flourishing (at least financially/organizationally).

  

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mista k5
Member since Feb 01st 2006
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77. "that why i do think the performance we saw from amy and pete"
In response to Reply # 76


  

          

in the last debate was manufactured. im not saying they have shifted positions but they shifted their approach in an attempt to grab bidens support. they were putting on a performance so that bidens backer could feel comfortable jumping ship to one of them.

biden needs to be out soon and i think he will be. i think before any votes are cast.

  

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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
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81. "I’m not sure he will win but I think he will be the last one out"
In response to Reply # 76


          

shut up already, damn

  

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Dr Claw
Member since Jun 25th 2003
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79. "nope."
In response to Reply # 66


  

          

and Warren knows it. watch how she handles Biden going off. she's careful not to go at him too hard because she knows he holds a lot of the "Obama voter cards"

  

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Lach
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74. "welp, 4 more years coming smh"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

  

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Vex_id
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83. "Over 20,000 people rallying right now in Queens w/ AOC"
In response to Reply # 0


          

to support Sanders.

Gosh those 'bernie bros' are at it again.

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Dr Claw
Member since Jun 25th 2003
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84. "yeah. this time, they can't really pull the 'Bro' card"
In response to Reply # 83


  

          

because way more of his public advocates have been women this time around.

AOC, Omar, and Tlaib supporting him is HUGE IMO.

if anything, though strategically this looks like a hairsplit that will fuck the Dems again, I see it differently. This is a "Bret Screwed Bret" situation.

Bernie's mere existence and continued popularity DESPITE a laundry list of flags that might have sent him to the locker room, is testament to who really greases the Democratic Party's wheel. Instead of trying to promote a more (lower-case) democratic experience, we've watched their party leaders do everything to stifle it after some of the wins they've picked up.

fact is, the American experience is FUCKED UP and the world's FUCKED UPNESS is at America's doorstep.

you can't get away with empty populism no more, then pivot back to the status quo. as said earlier, that's why Harris took a dive. that's why they are SO desperate for Biden to DO SOMETHING and are looking to Buttigieg and Klobuchar to DO SOMETHING.

They're warming up to Warren but it's clear she was far from their first choice.

  

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Vex_id
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85. "well-said. Still, far too few peel back the layers like you just did:"
In response to Reply # 84


          

It's still unfathomable political malpractice to not harness this generational movement that is supporting the Sanders candidacy to reel them into the big tent of the party. Instead, the same 2016 mistakes seem destined to repeat themselves in 2020 with this #NeverBernie nonsense.

Agreed with your point on Warren/Amy/Pete. Warren seems to be semi-palatable candidate for the DNC - but they still are desperate to flank her with center-right establishment efforts. There has been little to no reform in party leadership since the egregious administration of the 2016 primary, and we simply can't afford it moving into 2020.


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Vex_id
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86. "Emerson poll 10/22: Biden 27%; Sanders 25%; Warren 21%"
In response to Reply # 0


          

https://emersonpolling.reportablenews.com/pr/october-national-poll-biden-sanders-warren-maintain-front-runner-status-in-democratic-primary
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Vex_id
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88. "CNN N.H. poll: Sanders 22%; Warren 18%; Biden 15%"
In response to Reply # 0


          

https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/29/politics/new-hampshire-poll-2020-cnn/index.html

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Vex_id
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89. "at what point do you call bluff on the Biden polling?"
In response to Reply # 0


          


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Stevie Lee
Member since Aug 17th 2008
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Mon Nov-04-19 06:37 PM

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90. "2016 proved (once again) that polls are not to be trusted."
In response to Reply # 89


  

          

Sanders is going to do very well in the early states and build momentum from there all the way to the White House

  

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Vex_id
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91. "RE: 2016 proved (once again) that polls are not to be trusted."
In response to Reply # 90


          

>Sanders is going to do very well in the early states and
>build momentum from there all the way to the White House

It's certainly clear that the grassroots energy on the ground is contradicting what the polls say - yet again.

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Vex_id
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92. "Monmouth poll (10/30-11/4) Biden 23%; Warren 23%; Sanders 20%"
In response to Reply # 0


          


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Vex_id
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93. "Quinnipiac (Iowa): Warren: 20%; Pete: 19%: Sanders 17%"
In response to Reply # 0


          

Biden 4th lol.

Already crumbling.

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Vex_id
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94. "Warren plummeting in new nation-wide polls (12-3)"
In response to Reply # 0


          

Biden still clinging, but his lead continues to weaken. Mayor Pete has been the surprise thus far with Sanders remaining consistently competitive.

Kamala is out.
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Stadiq
Member since Dec 21st 2005
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Tue Dec-03-19 02:14 PM

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95. "going to link the polls?"
In response to Reply # 94


          


Saw some that, yes had Warren down, but also had Bernie down.

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2020/president/us/2020_democratic_presidential_nomination-6730.html

https://thehill.com/hilltv/rising/472629-bloomberg-overtakes-harris-in-new-poll

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2020-primaries/democratic/national/




I don't think anyone should rest easy, etc until at least Iowa.


That said, I am pretty discouraged at Warren's trend and Biden's ability to hang on. And how quickly Bloomberg made a splash.

  

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Vex_id
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96. "I don't think it's helpful to continue to cite singular polls as they co..."
In response to Reply # 95
Tue Dec-03-19 02:33 PM by Vex_id

          

I'm speaking to the objective trend that shows Warren's numbers have dropped considerably over the past few weeks. Do you dispute that?

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stravinskian
Member since Feb 24th 2003
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Fri Dec-06-19 01:15 PM

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99. "LOL"
In response to Reply # 96
Fri Dec-06-19 01:17 PM by stravinskian

          

So you've learned that individual polls usually don't give a statistically-significant measure of the race. That's progress.

But instead of citing, say, aggregator numbers, sequences of tracking polls, or anything like that, you just report your general feeling of things and call it "the objective trend."

It may very well be true that she's declined significantly in Iowa, or NH, or nationwide. I'd naturally be inclined to believe that, since I predicted it's what would happen once she was forced to clarify her M4A stance.

But if all you have is your intuitive feeling of the trends, that's the opposite of "objective."

Just say she seems to be losing support. You don't have to pretend you have hard facts when you don't.

  

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Vex_id
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101. "Cool."
In response to Reply # 99


          

>So you've learned that individual polls usually don't give a
>statistically-significant measure of the race. That's
>progress.

It's never that simple or cut/dry - and surely you know that. Polling has become more laden with administrative issues than people were previously aware of - so with new information should come new methods of applying the data/polling itself.

But as to the matter at hand here which we are discussing - it's very clear that the aggregate data has shown a downward spiral for Warren's number in recent weeks - which you're not disputing here.

But if you'd like to lecture us on your theory re: the reliability of aggregate polling vs. individual polling - please knock yourself out.



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My_SP1200_Broken_Again
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97. "this is what happens when you waffle on M4A..."
In response to Reply # 94


  

          

....it's a shame since her prior support was what made her so popular ...she'd still be my pick for VP, no matter who gets the nom (it will be Bernie, duh)


  

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Tw3nty
Member since Jan 02nd 2007
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Fri Dec-06-19 01:03 PM

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98. "Get her out of there she's trash."
In response to Reply # 94


  

          

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

  

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Dr Claw
Member since Jun 25th 2003
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Fri Dec-06-19 01:39 PM

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100. "for what it's worth: these two should be the last two remaining IMO"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

and I'd rather see Castro and Booker than Biden and Buttigieg.

that Warren (who I think has a backdoor hatch into more conservative governing) still bothers the hidden hand of the Democratic Party is indicative of how ridiculous they are.

  

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Vex_id
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Fri Dec-06-19 04:41 PM

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102. "It should - but Biden's artificial strength still impacts the race"
In response to Reply # 100


          

It may get to the point where either Sanders or Warren will have to make a principled stance and drop out to support the other (whoever is stronger) - because the last thing you want is the Progressive vote to split between Warren & Sanders - yet neither of them have enough votes to top Biden.

That said - although there is some overlap between Sanders & Warren voters, they do also pull from distinctively diff. segments of the electorate - so the race still remains volatile and unpredictable.

>and I'd rather see Castro and Booker than Biden and
>Buttigieg.

It's absurd that Castro, Booker, Yang & Tulsi are not getting more buzz and instead the party is allowing billionaires (Steyer/Bloomberg) to supplant legitimate candidates in this race. Klobuchar has also been treated w/ kid gloves but offers nothing of interest to voters, yet is beloved by the Establishment for her centrist posturing and deference to the status quo.

>that Warren (who I think has a backdoor hatch into more
>conservative governing) still bothers the hidden hand of the
>Democratic Party is indicative of how ridiculous they are.

lol Right. She's about as non-threatening as you could be when it comes to a "progressive" candidate. Their control-freak clench on the primary process is absurd, and really damaging to building a viable movement to defeat Trump.


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Vex_id
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103. "Sanders ascending in delegate rich California"
In response to Reply # 0


          

https://www.axios.com/bernie-sanders-california-primary-poll-3c47c04d-71a5-400c-adef-e48668af682c.html

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Vex_id
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104. "Politico: Dem Insiders: Bernie Could Win Nomination"
In response to Reply # 0


          

Can't remember the last time there was a day with this much positive Sanders coverage. Is it actually possible that Dem Insiders are conceding to the strength of his campaign on the ground?

https://www.politico.com/news/2019/12/26/can-bernie-sanders-win-2020-election-president-089636
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bignick
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105. "They are finally realizing the inevitable "
In response to Reply # 104


  

          

He’s the best candidate by a fucking mile.

  

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Vex_id
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106. "RE: They are finally realizing the inevitable "
In response to Reply # 105


          

>He’s the best candidate by a fucking mile.

It would require actual objective analysis to come to that conclusion.

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handle
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107. "He's not"
In response to Reply # 105


          

But maybe he's something people can vote for who have no ability to see subtle differences in policy - they way Hillary and Trump were so similar.

*gags*

------------
My prayers have been answered!

Gone
My Discogs collection for The Roots:
http://www.discogs.com/user/tomhayes-roots/collection

  

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Vex_id
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108. "so who is the strongest candidate?"
In response to Reply # 107


          

and what "subtle policy" distinctions are you referring to?

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bignick
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110. "He's the best candidate of your lifetime. "
In response to Reply # 107


  

          

  

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makaveli
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112. "lol"
In response to Reply # 110


  

          

so snooty about it.

“So back we go to these questions — friendship, character… ethics.”

  

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Dr Claw
Member since Jun 25th 2003
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Mon Dec-30-19 04:58 PM

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109. "I'm shocked that an insider is saying this."
In response to Reply # 104


  

          

but here's what I say about Bernie: he's not doing too much different than what Obama did in 2008.

Campaigning with a massive ground game, and going hard at non-voters to get them engaged.

he's also hitting a populist nerve in the midst of extreme crisis.

the difference is, I have less concern that he will diverge from his "marketing" than other candidates.

Me being me, I'm looking to see what the real plan (from Dems) will be if Nominee Sanders comes to fruition. What kind of triangulating bullshit will they attempt behind his back?

Yes, I'm mad. Let's move on.

Jays | Cavs | Eagles | Sabres | Tarheels

PSN: Dr_Claw_77 | XBL: Dr Claw 077 | FB: drclaw077 | T: @drclaw77 | http://thepeoplesvault.wordpress.com
Does he ACCEPT? http://i.imgur.com/TBMrAkD.jpg

  

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Vex_id
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111. "It seemed to have been more of a warning shot"
In response to Reply # 109


          

Since that story broke you have reports of Obama privately supporting Warren and Dem Donors freaking out, likely pivoting to Warren in a last ditch effort to thwart the Sanders momentum.

I don't think anyone believes Biden is it - even Dem donors still supporting him lol.

>but here's what I say about Bernie: he's not doing too much
>different than what Obama did in 2008.
>
>Campaigning with a massive ground game, and going hard at
>non-voters to get them engaged.
>
>he's also hitting a populist nerve in the midst of extreme
>crisis.
>
>the difference is, I have less concern that he will diverge
>from his "marketing" than other candidates.

Obama obviously was a once-in-a-lifetime JFK type candidate with out of this world charisma - and all of the attributes that appealed to the "better angels" of what America likes to think of itself as (diverse, unified, optimistic) --- but Obama also was not set as an individual and was still sort of evolving/growing into the kind of person and President he wanted to be.

With Bernie - he's been who he's been for a half-century. There's no "feeling out" stage - he knows exactly what he wants to accomplish and I do not believe he will deviate or get aggregated by Washington like so many before him. It will be an immense challenge but the Administration and Federal Agencies he would appoint and surround himself with to me would be as impressive (if not more) than his individual impact as President. His candidacy is one of the first I've seen in a long time that is legitimately not about just one person - but a coalition/community movement on the ground that is actually viable.

>Me being me, I'm looking to see what the real plan (from Dems)
>will be if Nominee Sanders comes to fruition. What kind of
>triangulating bullshit will they attempt behind his back?

It's been frustrating as all hell to acknowledge that - in some Dem Establishment circles - a second Trump terms seems more palatable than a Sanders nomination.

And that's precisely why his movement needs to succeed.


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Dr Claw
Member since Jun 25th 2003
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Fri Jan-03-20 11:45 AM

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122. "bingo."
In response to Reply # 111


  

          

>It's been frustrating as all hell to acknowledge that - in
>some Dem Establishment circles - a second Trump terms seems
>more palatable than a Sanders nomination.
>
>And that's precisely why his movement needs to succeed.

we live in a time where former hardcore Tea Partiers are out here sounding like "Southern Conservative Democrats" because Trump is just way out of line

  

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Vex_id
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113. "Sanders raises 34.5 million in fundraising surge (WSJ)"
In response to Reply # 0


          

5 million+ individual donors? Unprecedented.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/sanders-campaign-raises-34-5-million-in-fundraising-surge-11577962800

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mista k5
Member since Feb 01st 2006
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Thu Jan-02-20 10:35 AM

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114. "14.4* million people voted in the 2016 democratic primaries"
In response to Reply # 113
Thu Jan-02-20 10:44 AM by mista k5

  

          

5 million donors doesnt equal 5 million votes but i would guess its pretty close.


meaning some people are donating to multiple candidates so their votes arent locked. some might not vote at all.

im sure plenty people havent donated that will vote for bernie too though.


*edit: source
https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/06/10/turnout-was-high-in-the-2016-primary-season-but-just-short-of-2008-record/

  

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reaction
Member since Aug 09th 2019
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Thu Jan-02-20 10:43 AM

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115. "RE: Sanders raises 34.5 million in fundraising surge (WSJ)"
In response to Reply # 113


          

>5 million+ individual donors? Unprecedented.

It's actually 5 million donations, not donors. I think it was Beto who started this new thing about talking about donations vs donors this year and it's caused a lot of confusion. I think Bernie has about 1.3 or 1.4 million individual donors this cycle so far. Those are still unprecedented numbers at this point.

  

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mista k5
Member since Feb 01st 2006
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Thu Jan-02-20 10:46 AM

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116. "that makes more sense"
In response to Reply # 115


  

          

to go up from 1 million donors (which i remember bernie stating) to 5 million would be quite amazing.

  

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Vex_id
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Thu Jan-02-20 10:52 AM

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118. "RE: Sanders raises 34.5 million in fundraising surge (WSJ)"
In response to Reply # 115


          

>>5 million+ individual donors? Unprecedented.
>
>It's actually 5 million donations, not donors. I think it was
>Beto who started this new thing about talking about donations
>vs donors this year and it's caused a lot of confusion.

Definitely - thanks for pointing that out.

>think Bernie has about 1.3 or 1.4 million individual donors
>this cycle so far. Those are still unprecedented numbers at
>this point.

What's truly remarkable and unprecedented is that he's out-performing all candidates driven by the donor-class, and is debunking long-held beliefs in politics re: campaign finance. His campaign has changed the game and you'll see grassroots campaigns breaking out because of this.


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stravinskian
Member since Feb 24th 2003
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Thu Jan-02-20 10:52 AM

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117. "LOL and Andrew Yang raised 16.5 million."
In response to Reply # 113


          


And "Mayor Pete" was just shy of 25 million.

So clearly this is a useful measure of a candidate's promise.

  

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mista k5
Member since Feb 01st 2006
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Thu Jan-02-20 10:56 AM

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119. "warren struggling to hit "only" 20 million"
In response to Reply # 117


  

          

yang is pretty surprising to ME

  

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Reeq
Member since Mar 11th 2013
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Thu Jan-02-20 12:37 PM

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120. "its kinda funny how much the media was hyping up "
In response to Reply # 113
Thu Jan-02-20 12:52 PM by Reeq

  

          

those joint trump/rnc fundraising numbers early in the year compared to *individual* dem candidate numbers.

but now they arent saying much when the total dem field is *doubling* the trump/rnc operation.

no real praise or astonishment at the massive amounts of money even relative unknowns like yang and p booty are clearing.

its becoming clear that the early 2019 numbers were the floor. and now that there are less candidates and the top of the field is becoming more solidified...previously hesitant donors are becoming more willing to put their dough down on their horses.

the dem base is as excited and engaged as they were pre-2018.

------

  

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Vex_id
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121. "yea I saw that."
In response to Reply # 120


          

>those joint trump/rnc fundraising numbers early in the year
>compared to *individual* dem candidate numbers.
>
>but now they arent saying much when the total dem field is
>*doubling* the trump/rnc operation.

Right. I mean, obviously Trump is going to be well funded (as are all incumbents) - but these last-quarter numbers for Dems are enormous. If the Dems don't mess it up (again) - there will be unstoppable momentum if a unified Democratic party coalesces at the convention.

>no real praise or astonishment at the massive amounts of money
>even relative unknowns like yang and p booty are clearing.

Even Tulsi is out here raising ~$4 million in Q4. The big tent of the party is gigantic - and a lot of new voters (mostly millennials) can and will change the entire complexion of Presidential politics for decades to come.

>the dem base is as excited and engaged as they were pre-2018.

Let's hope so.


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Vex_id
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123. "Dem Primary shaping up to be a Biden v. Bernie showdown | 1/7"
In response to Reply # 0


          

https://www.newsweek.com/bernie-sanders-leaps-top-democratic-candidates-joe-biden-2020-polls-1480900

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Walleye
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Wed Jan-08-20 11:59 AM

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124. "Time to make something of Biden's Iraq war vote"
In response to Reply # 123


          

Trump's going to hang that around his neck. Somebody in the presidential field owes it to the Democratic party to at least make Biden practice answering for it* when Trump starts hammering the issue.

*just kidding. there is no answer for it. it's disqualifying.

______________________________

"Walleye, a lot of things are going to go wrong in your life that technically aren't your fault. Always remember that this doesn't make you any less of an idiot"

--Walleye's Dad

  

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Vex_id
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Thu Jan-09-20 09:49 AM

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126. "Bernie is bodying Biden on Iraq, fairly regularly now"
In response to Reply # 124


          

Among the top 3 candidates (Biden, Sanders & Warren) - Bernie is the only one with credible anti-war bonafides. Given this debacle with Iran, it's political suicide to run a candidate against Trump who can't debunk him on foreign policy and draw *clear* contrasts on anti-war credibility.


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Vex_id
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Thu Jan-09-20 09:46 AM

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125. "When even Chris Cillizza is conceding to Bernie's strength"
In response to Reply # 0


          

you know it's real.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/01/07/politics/bernie-sanders-joe-biden-2020-democratic-primary/index.html

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Vex_id
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Thu Jan-09-20 10:41 AM

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127. "Is it time for Warren to consider backing Bernie to thwart Biden?"
In response to Reply # 0


          

If Warren had Bernie's numbers and Bernie had Warren's numbers right now, the media (and many right here in this post) would be demanding that Sanders drop out and endorse Warren, lest the progressive vote be fractured to where Biden is the beneficiary who likely wins the primary.

So, y'all ready to call for Warren to drop out and back Bernie or nah?

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mista k5
Member since Feb 01st 2006
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Thu Jan-09-20 10:50 AM

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128. "lets get some votes cast first"
In response to Reply # 127


  

          

i do think they need to at some point (early) if a moderate has a decent lead.

lets hope it turns into a warren vs bernie primary instead and have the moderates drop out.

  

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Vex_id
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Thu Jan-09-20 10:58 AM

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129. "Agreed - but at what point should this happen?"
In response to Reply # 128
Thu Jan-09-20 11:04 AM by Vex_id

          

If Warren finishes 3rd in Iowa and NH and Bernie wins them both or finishes 2nd/1st respectively - is it time? If not, will it be by Super Tuesday if it's clear that Bernie and Biden are the two viable contenders?

Warren will have the money and infrastructure to run a long primary race and compete for quite some time, but when will it be time to coalesce the progressive vote?

>lets hope it turns into a warren vs bernie primary instead and
>have the moderates drop out.

That would be great - but the numbers don't bear this out unfortunately. But anything can happen - so I agree that we should at least let a few of the early states play out and vote.


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mista k5
Member since Feb 01st 2006
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Thu Jan-09-20 11:03 AM

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130. "it should be considered before super tuesday"
In response to Reply # 129


  

          

depending on how the early states vote maybe wait until after super tuesday results.

why does it seem like warren is getting squeezed by both sides. you got pete saying you need to come to me and not have me come to you and bernie is too. or in bernies case his voters are saying as much.

i think warren is the smart choice but ill be very happy to vote for bernie. i donated to both over the holidays.

  

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Vex_id
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Thu Jan-09-20 11:08 AM

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131. "Pete needs to chill"
In response to Reply # 130


          

His only hope is Iowa - and I really hope he doesn't come out in the top 2 to where he decides to buckle up and play the long-game. I just don't see him being viable after Iowa. He will likely finish 4th in NH, maybe not even top 5 in South Carolina, and it doesn't appear that he'll fare well on Super Tuesday either.


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stravinskian
Member since Feb 24th 2003
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Thu Jan-09-20 12:10 PM

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136. "Maybe Pete needs to drop out and endorse Biden."
In response to Reply # 131


          


And Klobuchar too, and Booker, and Bennet, and I guess Warren too, since nobody gets to be a progressive anymore except Bernie.

  

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Vex_id
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Thu Jan-09-20 12:45 PM

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142. "If you say so."
In response to Reply # 136
Thu Jan-09-20 12:51 PM by Vex_id

          

You guys are really upset today. Must be actually nervous that your predictions will be wrong again, and that Sanders is *much* stronger than you thought he was.

The beautiful thing about this post is that all you have to do is scroll up and read me complimenting Warren, calling her a "Progressive" - saying that she should stay in this race (as long as she remains viable) - and contradicting everything you're desperately flailing to say at this late hour in the primary, now that you want to take your marbles and go home.

The whole point of the question was to expose the hypocrisy of commentators like you who - undoubtedly - would be calling for Bernie's demise if his numbers were what Warren's are right now.

But let's just keep it real: Biden is your horse; just as Clinton was your horse in 2016. Hope that works out for you.

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Walleye
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Thu Jan-09-20 12:53 PM

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143. "Pete's got another re-brand in him"
In response to Reply # 131


          

He raised a decent amount of money and doesn't have any principles.
His investors are going to want at least one more crack at finding a new lane and bludgeoning any adjacent candidates.

______________________________

"Walleye, a lot of things are going to go wrong in your life that technically aren't your fault. Always remember that this doesn't make you any less of an idiot"

--Walleye's Dad

  

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Vex_id
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Thu Jan-09-20 01:00 PM

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144. "Pete's fundraising has been quite effective. ~$25 mill in Q4 I believe"
In response to Reply # 143
Thu Jan-09-20 01:02 PM by Vex_id

          

>He raised a decent amount of money and doesn't have any
>principles.
>His investors are going to want at least one more crack at
>finding a new lane and bludgeoning any adjacent candidates.

He is in the perfect position to play attack-dog on the Progressive candidates - which he's already done (mostly to Warren).

I'll wait for Strav to call him a sexist.

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Stadiq
Member since Dec 21st 2005
3658 posts
Thu Jan-09-20 12:27 PM

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138. "LMAO what? "
In response to Reply # 129


          


"Is it time for Warren to drop out and endorse Bernie?"

Someone with sense/logic/reason and doesn't treat politics like a sports agenda: "Maybe we should wait until votes have been cast...?"

You: "Agreed"


Then why the fuck did you pose the question in the first place??


Vex- this isn't some backyard debate about MJ versus Lebron.


And if you want to bring people into the "Bernie tent" or whatever you want to call it, you need to stop making everything about your little agendas.

And, if you want to ditch your sexist label, maybe don't be so quick to suggest a progressive woman who was leading the pack not that long ago, and the establishment seems to be getting a little more comfortable with, drop out before a single vote has been cast...

  

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Vex_id
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Thu Jan-09-20 12:39 PM

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141. "The reason for asking a question is generally to elicit a response"
In response to Reply # 138


          

from people other than yourself. Big concept to grasp I know.

Glad to see you're still obsessed though.

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reaction
Member since Aug 09th 2019
130 posts
Thu Jan-09-20 11:34 AM

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132. "RE: Is it time for Warren to consider backing Bernie to thwart Biden?"
In response to Reply # 127


          

I think yes, especially now after Sunrise Movement has strongly endorsed Bernie 76% to 17% for Warren. This article really lays things out perfectly with tons of supporting evidence https://www.currentaffairs.org/2020/01/everyone-is-getting-on-the-bernie-train

  

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Vex_id
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Thu Jan-09-20 02:07 PM

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148. "The Sunrise endorsement is an important one"
In response to Reply # 132


          

and is already paying dividends in New Hampshire.

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stravinskian
Member since Feb 24th 2003
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Thu Jan-09-20 11:41 AM

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133. "LOL, just like it was Warren's job to thwart Hillary."
In response to Reply # 127


          


But no, Bernie's movement isn't a bunch of entitled Bros at all...

  

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Vex_id
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Thu Jan-09-20 11:44 AM

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134. "Oh, Warren was running for President in 2016?"
In response to Reply # 133


          

I love how wrong you've been - yet again - about this Primary. In this very post you said - definitively - that it will be Biden & Warren. Yet again, you've tried to marginalize and trivialize Sanders and his supporters - to what end?

Sorry that we didn't get a Tim Kaine / Sherrod Brown ticket that you could really get behind. Maybe next time.

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stravinskian
Member since Feb 24th 2003
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Thu Jan-09-20 12:03 PM

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135. "LOL, struck a nerve."
In response to Reply # 134


          


It's okay. Implicit bias. Yes you're a sexist, like we all are to some extent. It doesn't mean you're irredeemable. You, personally, are irredeemable for other reasons.

  

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Vex_id
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Thu Jan-09-20 12:16 PM

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137. "lol this is low - even for you."
In response to Reply # 135


          

>
>It's okay. Implicit bias. Yes you're a sexist, like we all are
>to some extent.

Because I didn't support Hillary Clinton, I imagine. lol.

Forget that I support a woman in the primary and have worked on two congressional campaigns (both of whom are women).

But hey - Strav knows people he's never met and is qualified to make such character assessments because he's bitter about how bad his political analysis is.

This was fun - let's do it again sometime.

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stravinskian
Member since Feb 24th 2003
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Thu Jan-09-20 01:06 PM

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145. "You probably have female friends, too!"
In response to Reply # 137
Thu Jan-09-20 01:11 PM by stravinskian

          

OMG, sorry, so you couldn't POSSIBLY suffer from implicit bias. You're supporting super-serious-real candidate Tulsi Gabbard!

Your assertion that Elizabeth Warren, an actual honest-to-god expert on bankruptcy, who came to her progressive positions through actual rigorous study that long predated both her political career and Sanders's current brush with relevance, needs to drop out and endorse someone she already chose not to endorse, because he's been ahead of her in the RCP average for about a month and a half right after she was ahead of him for two months --- that was a totally logical strategic assertion.

On the other hand, there's someone else in the race who's consistently even further ahead of Bernie than Bernie is ahead of Warren. Maybe we should extend your logic and say that it's time for Bernie, Warren, Pete, Bloomberg, and everybody else to stop splitting the *real* progressive movement (the Democratic party), endorse Biden and get ready for the real race against Trump.

You Bernie Bros don't like coronations unless it's Bernie getting the crown. How long until Bernie starts hunting for superdelegates again?

  

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Vex_id
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Thu Jan-09-20 01:45 PM

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146. "Damn Strav you ok? Can you read?"
In response to Reply # 145
Thu Jan-09-20 02:05 PM by Vex_id

          

Ah got it. So it doesn't matter if you support, work with, and campaign for Democratic women - you have to support the ones that Stravinskian deems appropriate, lest you be subject to implicit gender bias. Got it.

>Your assertion that Elizabeth Warren, an actual honest-to-god
>expert on bankruptcy, who came to her progressive positions
>through actual rigorous study that long predated both her
>political career and Sanders's current brush with relevance,
>needs to drop out and endorse someone she already chose not to
>endorse

If you can read, I asserted the exact opposite and never suggested that she should actually drop out right now (while pointing to the hypocrisy of those who have already called for Bernie to drop out a few months ago when they professed - as you did - that he was finished). Warren can and should stay in this race (unless she is doing poorly come Super Tuesday with no viable path to victory - then she should consider dropping out - and yes - supporting Sanders). I've also been a long-time admirer of Warren's and have specifically praised her courage in going after monopolies and criminal bankers. In this very post I've stated that I'd be quite happy with a Warren nomination.

Incidentally, Warren has a *lot* of respect for Bernie Sanders.

Direct quote:

"Bernie has put the right issues on the table both for the Democratic Party and for the country"

The reason we are even talking about this is because many have floated the idea of a unified Warren/Sanders front to flank Biden if it comes down to it - and have suggested (in fair-minded fashion that you fail to exhibit) that the candidate who has the strongest standing in the primary should be the candidate whom the Sanders/Warren wing of the party gets behind.

Then there are others (like yourself) who want to cry and whine that we should only do this if Warren is the candidate with the strongest standing. Correction: You've largely been playing defense for Biden so it's clear that you'd hitch your wagon to Biden to stop Bernie from being the nominee.

Also, imagine being in 2020 and still using terms like "Bernie Bros" as if it it makes any sense or actually insults anybody.

I know it's been a painful process to remove the Clinton/Kaine bumper sticker from your car bruh. But it's time. Come home.


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stravinskian
Member since Feb 24th 2003
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Thu Jan-09-20 02:07 PM

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147. "No, the way to not say sexist things..."
In response to Reply # 146
Thu Jan-09-20 02:15 PM by stravinskian

          

is to think before you speak and resist the urge to say sexist things.

Everybody is subject to implicit gender bias. Even women. Just as everyone is subject to implicit racial bias. Have you taken the implicit bias test?

The people who angrily assert that they couldn't possibly be subject to implicit bias because --(excuse, excuse, excuse)-- are usually the ones who don't put any work into correcting those biases, and as a result, say more stupid things.


All this other stuff you're running through is flailing deflection, right down to your schoolboy claim that you originally said the sexist thing as some kind of clever trap to expose the hypocrisy of something or other that nobody ever said.

"...like you who - undoubtedly - would be calling for Bernie's demise if..." I never said Bernie should drop out of the race because he was behind Warren. I even said the opposite at a time when he was significantly behind *and* he had a heart attack at the age of 78.

Calm down. You said something dumb. We all do it. Move on.

  

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Vex_id
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Thu Jan-09-20 02:11 PM

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149. "RE: No, the way to not say sexist things..."
In response to Reply # 147


          


>The people who angrily assert that they couldn't possibly be
>subject to implicit bias because --(excuse, excuse, excuse)--
>are usually the ones who don't put any work into correcting
>those biases, and as a result, say more stupid things.

I never asserted that I couldn't possibly be subject to implicit bias. Nice try though. However, I would only consider engaging in this topic with someone far more qualified than yourself to make an assessment on these matters.

The ultimate deflection from substantive debate is to hurl unhinged and baseless accusations in an effort to steer attention anywhere except where you want it to be: on the actual merits.

I won't even begin to point out the hilarity and irony of how your statements about Tulsi Gabbard are textbook examples of not just implicit gender bias, but overt bigotry and chauvinism.


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stravinskian
Member since Feb 24th 2003
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Thu Jan-09-20 02:20 PM

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150. "No, you won't, will you?"
In response to Reply # 149


          


>I won't even begin to point out the hilarity and irony of how
>your statements about Tulsi Gabbard are textbook examples of
>not just implicit gender bias, but overt bigotry and
>chauvinism.

You were more interesting when you were spending all your time around here talking about space aliens and the Warren report.

  

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Vex_id
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Thu Jan-09-20 02:25 PM

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151. "another deflection."
In response to Reply # 150


          

Taking a lot of L's, stravvy.

Let's first make sure we have a firm understanding of the exoteric before we attempt to put our big-boy pants on and address the esoteric.

One step at a time, my friend.

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Stadiq
Member since Dec 21st 2005
3658 posts
Thu Jan-09-20 12:33 PM

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139. "wait, what? Not to jump into your spat but stop playing dumb"
In response to Reply # 134


          


He was clearly referring to Bernie supporters being furious Warren didn't endorse him...which I've seen used as an excuse that he lost the primary.


I'm telling you...if Bernie supporters who act like yourself want to get more people to support him, your smartest play is just shutting the fuck up because you turn people away a lot more than you realize.

I'm dead serious.


If you want to help Bernie gain support, lay low man. You aren't helping.

  

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Vex_id
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Thu Jan-09-20 12:38 PM

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140. "What happened to "vote blue no matter who"? "
In response to Reply # 139


          

You mean to tell me that Democratic loyalists who preach about voting for the eventual nominee - no matter what - will not vote for the Democratic nominee because of some side-bar political debates?

The fragility.

Somehow, I missed your analysis in 2016 on how Clinton supporters should "just shut the fuck up" if they wanted to unite the big-tent and work together with Sanders supporters.

Stay consistent.

-->

  

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Stadiq
Member since Dec 21st 2005
3658 posts
Mon Jan-13-20 05:23 PM

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162. "you really are your own worst enemy, bro"
In response to Reply # 140


          

>You mean to tell me that Democratic loyalists who preach
>about voting for the eventual nominee - no matter what - will
>not vote for the Democratic nominee because of some side-bar
>political debates?

Can you read? Or do you just play dumb?

I assume that you want Bernie to win the nom. To do so, he is going to have gain support. (just like any other candidate)

So...if you want people to consider Bernie more seriously, you should seriously shut the fuck up. I'm not even being an asshole. I am being dead serious.

Bernie supporters like you hurt him more than help. Especially at this point where its time to start convincing people who have been skeptical.

Because you, and the others stans like you, really push more people away than you attract.

How?

Because you say stupid/sexist shit like "Should Warren drop out?" when she is in a statistical tie with your guy in IA.

Because you think "I support Tulsi!" means you have no bias.(Really ironic thing here is that you are calling for Warren to drop out but not Tulsi...when she has ZERO chance, and I would guess 90%+ of her 2% would go to Bernie...every little bit helps)

Because you spend more time worrying about Warren than Biden or Pete.

Because you say stupid/objectively untrue things like "we are in a post-partisan era"

I mean, I the list goes on.


I'm not talking about after the primaries. I'm talking about RIGHT NOW.

If you want A Bernie campaign to seem more attractive to folks, stop acting like a fucking Bro, Vex

And I hate that term. I hate that everyone who was against Hillary was labeled a Bernie Bro.

But...if it walks like a bro, and says stupid shit like a bro...

>
>The fragility.

Haha what? Stop projecting.

I'm trying to help you and your guy. Be less of a bro and you might convince more people.

There are other Bernie supporters on here- from Doc to Reaction to whoever- who present reasoned, logical reasons why they support the man.

Bernie himself makes a good case.

But bros like you do more damage than good. Your entire style wreaks of white male privilege and arrogance.

You literally asked if/when Warren should drop out and she is in a statistical tie with Bernie in IA.

And even if she wasn't. Even if she was 10 fucking point behind. It was a stupid Bernie bro thing to say at this point.

Just cop to it. Take the L like a grown man.

>
>Somehow, I missed your analysis in 2016 on how Clinton
>supporters should "just shut the fuck up" if they wanted to
>unite the big-tent and work together with Sanders supporters.

Do you have anything else in your bag than this, bro?

I only remember you years ago as the over-the-top-cringe-worthy Bron stan, so I don't think we chopped it up about politics.

If we did, you would know I was very much not a Hillary fan. You would also know that my biggest beef with her campaign and her supporters was the sense of arrogant entitlement.

You know, saying Bernie should drop out or not run.

Kind of like, you, up above posed the idea that Warren should drop out for Bernie.

I would get frustrated that Hillary fans couldn't have a sincere conversation about here issues, and any weakness was chalked up to "not perfect" or "she's grown"

Kind of like your 2 or 3 goto excuses for Tulsi

>
>Stay consistent.


>
>-->

LOL...uh, are you kidding?

Vex you are the biggest fucking hypocrite on here. Even Strav has admitted to being wrong more than you.

When you have an L to take, you just play dumb, deflect, or disappear.

And your standards change completely when it is your agenda.

I've literally never seen you admit to anything because these politicians are your heroes. Because you haven't grown up enough to see that this shit isn't an agenda, man. Actual lives depend on this stuff.


Specifically, how is it inconsistent of me to point out that if you want your guy's campaign to be more appealing, stop saying stupid/arrogant shit about other candidates?

Much like Hillary's people shouldn't have acted so entitled and oblivious to her issues as a candidate, I am asking the same of you.

See- I am consistent. Because I don't have an agenda.


So, if you are such a fan of consistency I'd urge you to-

- stop acting like a Hillary stan re: Bernie and Tulsi

- you know, be more honest about your candidates' potential weaknesses. Stop acting entitled. Etc.

- spend more time attacking the moderates than Warren

- don't call for Warren to drop out again until you have at least called for Tulsi to do so LOL LOL

- have even just a drop of self-awareness

- realize everyone is wrong sometimes. Take the Ls when they come. Its ok.



Bottom line you posting, even tongue in cheek (you didn't, though), the idea that Warren should drop out for Bernie was among the dumbest things I've ever seen posted on here. If nothing else, at least cop to that, bro.

  

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kfine
Member since Jan 11th 2009
1210 posts
Fri Jan-10-20 02:02 PM

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152. "Wait, what? Why should "she" be the one to drop out for "him"?"
In response to Reply # 127
Fri Jan-10-20 02:03 PM by kfine

          

Like.. first of all, the notion that Bernie would even consider dropping out if their numbers were reversed is laughable. He didn't drop out in 2016 after losing his mathematical path to the nomination. He didn't even drop out this cycle after having a heart attack. So that hypothetical is a non-starter.

And even if Warren DID decide to drop out and all her support transferred to Bernie (unlikely since only about 1/3 list him as their 2nd choice anyway: https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/voters-second-choice-candidates-show-a-race-that-is-still-fluid/)... his RCP average is like 20% and hers is just under 15% (https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2020/president/us/2020_democratic_presidential_nomination-6730.html). So AT MOST she could bump him to maybe 35% ... well below the 51% a candidate needs to be effectively sweeping the race and averting a brokered convention (assuming poll averages might roughly translate to delegate apportionments). It would be colossally pointless.

There's also the fact that, in terms of bridging progressives and moderates, Warren is a much stronger consensus nominee than Bernie if we look at some of the ranked choice simulations lying around (https://www.vox.com/2019/9/12/20860985/poll-democratic-primary-ranked-choice-warren-biden) or her aggregate popularity as a 2nd choice (https://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2019/11/14/the_impact_of_voter_second_choices_as_2020_dems_drop_out_141732.html). She's also in far better health than Bernie (https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2019/10/10/bernie-sanders-heart-attack-229841), younger than him (at 70 she would be the age Bernie is now at the END of 2 presidential terms), and more energetic.

I also happen to think Warren's demonstrated repeatedly that she'd in fact be the most *competent* executor of the progressive agenda - fiscally, financially, and legislatively - but that could be a whole other reply and is a somewhat subjective assessment.

She should stay in the race or leave if she wants to, the most important thing is its her call alone to make. She's, what, only the 2nd woman in US history to advance this far/poll this well/raise this much money in a presidential primary? Let her cook.

  

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mista k5
Member since Feb 01st 2006
11757 posts
Fri Jan-10-20 02:08 PM

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154. "*likes this reply*"
In response to Reply # 152


  

          

  

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Vex_id
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Fri Jan-10-20 02:23 PM

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156. "great points, as always. "
In response to Reply # 152
Fri Jan-10-20 02:27 PM by Vex_id

          

>Like.. first of all, the notion that Bernie would even
>consider dropping out if their numbers were reversed is
>laughable.

Definitely. The hypothetical question wasn't about whether Bernie would ever consider dropping out at this point - clearly he wouldn't. Clearly Warren won't (nor should she). Clearly Pete won't. Even Klobuchar won't.

The question was: if Bernie's numbers had suffered this kind of fall from grace over the past 1-2 months (as Warren's objectively have) - would we be hearing calls from many in the media (and the legions of anti-Bernie Dems here) for him to drop out because of his hopeless campaign? Likely.

He didn't drop out in 2016 after losing his
>mathematical path to the nomination. He didn't even drop out
>this cycle after having a heart attack. So that hypothetical
>is a non-starter.

Quite true - the same can be said for Hillary Clinton in '08. Both of them stayed in because they were competitive and opted to leverage their political capital to further their message.

>And even if Warren DID decide to drop out and all her support
>transferred to Bernie (unlikely since only about 1/3 list him
>as their 2nd choice anyway:
>https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/voters-second-choice-candidates-show-a-race-that-is-still-fluid/)...
>his RCP average is like 20% and hers is just under 15%

Agreed. I've made the point (in this very thread) that Warren and Bernie supporters do not overlap as many assume they do. Warren's core group are college-educated, affluent white liberals. Many of them would likely move to Pete or Biden, but some of them would surely move to Sanders, especially if Warren offered a strong endorsement.

>There's also the fact that, in terms of bridging progressives
>and moderates, Warren is a much stronger consensus nominee
>than Bernie if we look at some of the ranked choice
>simulations lying around
>(https://www.vox.com/2019/9/12/20860985/poll-democratic-primary-ranked-choice-warren-biden)
>or her aggregate popularity as a 2nd choice

That's an interesting point and one I agree with. Though, on the flip, given Bernie's far more diverse support-base, I think the stronger case for a consensus Progressive to rally behind (given the current numbers that each candidate boasts) clearly favors Sanders.

>I also happen to think Warren's demonstrated repeatedly that
>she'd in fact be the most *competent* executor of the
>progressive agenda - fiscally, financially, and legislatively
>- but that could be a whole other reply and is a somewhat
>subjective assessment.

Not sure I agree with that. When it comes to financial justice (breaking up the big banks and holding white-collar criminals accountable) - I don't think there's a stronger candidate than Warren. When it comes economic justice, foreign policy, and seeding executive agencies with progressives - I think Bernie's actual cabinet and coalition would be prepared to effectuate more change than Warren's, which would likely be far more conventional and centrist.

But this depends on what your personal goals are for this country. People who deem themselves "progressives" certainly aren't monolithic.

But for sure - Warren has run an impressive campaign and will likely do well enough to stay in this race for as long as she wants. The question wasn't asked to suggest that she should drop out - it was asked to assess the current poll numbers from Warren & Sanders respectively, and to hold accountable those who clearly would be asking for Bernie to drop out (as many of them were saying for months until he rallied after his heart-attack) if he were boasting these kind of numbers *this* late in the primary. It's one thing to have these numbers in August -- it's quite another to have these numbers just days before the first votes are cast in Iowa & New Hampshire.


-->

  

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kfine
Member since Jan 11th 2009
1210 posts
Fri Jan-10-20 06:13 PM

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158. "Lol, thx. And I hear ya. Just one point re: where we disagree"
In response to Reply # 156


          

I think I see Warren as the better executor because she's been a bit more transparent and gone into greater detail about her financing (while Bernie's posture was: https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/29/politics/sanders-no-exact-plan-medicare-for-all/index.html), and her pledge not to raise taxes on lower and middle income folks is huge. In terms of preferring Warren's legislative strategy, for example with respect to single-payer healthcare transition, she's proposed breaking the effort up into smaller legislations that have a chance at passing under budget reconciliation rules(https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2019/11/15/20966674/elizabeth-warren-medicare-for-all-plan-public-option) and/or, if necessary, voting to eliminate the filibuster. In contrast, Bernie has proposed essentially weaponizing the VP to overide a Senate parliamentarian's inevitable disqualification of huge legislation like single payer on the basis of failing to meet deficit-control requirements ... a tactic so autocratic even 45/Mcconnell chose not to engage in it (https://www.politico.com/story/2019/04/10/sanders-rules-healthcare-1267463).

Warren runs left of me in some areas, but I would still classify her as (just barely, like super small c lol) center-left and one reason I like her approach to the progressive agenda is that she's more pragmatic, while Bernie often asks people to be more imaginative in response to policy critiques. In my view, the overhauls they are proposing are massive and if a leader's agenda is so expensive that it'll blow up the deficit and drive inflationary pressures in the economy, then the idea of less earnings to deal with that inflation is *extremely* unappealing. And tbh it is lower and middle-income people who would suffer due to rising inflation the most. It's one of the reasons I like Pete's proposals better than Dem competitors to his left or further center: he goes as progressive as fiscally possible while meeting statutory PAYGO requirements (lol), not raising lower and middle income taxes, but striving for the same social democratic aims.

So ya. I know I'm one of the more vocal Bernie critics around here (lol), but even though Warren's domestic agenda is similar to Bernie's in scale and scope the tactics she proposes just sound like better implementation to me. I respect her efforts to try translating it all into a more fiscally responsible endeavor (even if I have my doubts about how reliable some of her revenue streams could be in the long run).




>
>>I also happen to think Warren's demonstrated repeatedly that
>>she'd in fact be the most *competent* executor of the
>>progressive agenda - fiscally, financially, and
>legislatively
>>- but that could be a whole other reply and is a somewhat
>>subjective assessment.
>

>Not sure I agree with that. When it comes to financial
>justice (breaking up the big banks and holding white-collar
>criminals accountable) - I don't think there's a stronger
>candidate than Warren. When it comes economic justice,
>foreign policy, and seeding executive agencies with
>progressives - I think Bernie's actual cabinet and coalition
>would be prepared to effectuate more change than Warren's,
>which would likely be far more conventional and centrist.
>

  

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kfine
Member since Jan 11th 2009
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Fri Jan-10-20 02:15 PM

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155. "Oh an btw, if Bernie and/or the far left is finally acknowledging that"
In response to Reply # 127
Fri Jan-10-20 02:19 PM by kfine

          

he has a ceiling, there's really only poor strategizing to blame. Bullying the most progressive Democrat out of her party's primary wouldn't help or change anything.

Imho if Bernie was actually serious about his politics he would've ran as a Green from jump where the Dem party couldn't neutralize his threat, his politics actually fit, he could've consolidated the anti-establishment vote, and his name ID/popularity would've helped the GP solidify ballot lines in every state and overthrow 2 party dominance - a tangible outcome of his 'revolution' that wouldve transformed US politics forever. But tbh after listening/looking into Howie Hawkins:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vrSklGriWVg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Ho3FqXI7gQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUSpC1DuZQM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jfPOaciXde0
https://gpus.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/PCSC-Questionnaire-Howie-Hawkins.pdf

I'm not even sure he would've won THEIR primary because, compared to Hawkins, Bernie might not even be the most astute SOCIALIST currently running for pres lol

  

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Tw3nty
Member since Jan 02nd 2007
8416 posts
Fri Jan-10-20 02:07 PM

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153. "Why are we watching the 2 least remarkable candidates?"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Biden is already locked in.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

  

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Vex_id
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Fri Jan-10-20 02:51 PM

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157. "Yea, I know. I'm floored by how remarkable Biden's candidacy is"
In response to Reply # 153


          

>Biden is already locked in.

Let's not even have a primary.

-->

  

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makaveli
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Mon Jan-13-20 04:12 PM

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159. "who do you believe?"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/rubycramer/elizabeth-warren-bernie-sanders-woman-president

“So back we go to these questions — friendship, character… ethics.”

  

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Lurkmode
Member since May 07th 2011
3582 posts
Mon Jan-13-20 04:41 PM

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160. "Warren"
In response to Reply # 159


  

          

smh at Bernie

---------------------------
Signature

  

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Vex_id
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Mon Jan-13-20 04:53 PM

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161. "The timing of this isn't peculiar at all, is it?"
In response to Reply # 159


          

Right after the Des Moines Register (the gold standard of Iowa polling) has Sanders pulling ahead in Iowa, and Warren's numbers tumbling nationally - all of a sudden this comes out?

I don't think anyone has to believe anything in this story - especially not the unnamed "source" cited in the article.

Very simple solution: Tomorrow at the CNN debate, it's journalistic malpractice to not simply ask Warren, directly: "Did Sanders tell you in that December 2018 meeting that a woman can't win?"

Warren needs to either corroborate this source and confirm the rumor - or she needs to call it out.

Of course, I expect neither to happen. This is textbook ugly primary politics playbook 101: attempt to win the narrative by any means necessary when desperate and trailing.
-->

  

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blkprinceMD05
Member since Nov 29th 2004
40467 posts
Tue Feb-18-20 11:21 PM

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545. "Vex come out to play....ugly and desperate- u describing warren "
In response to Reply # 161


  

          

prototype

stand ur ground, believe in urself,
believe in love, prepare urself for love, remove the negativity from ur life, and accept the love u kno u deserve

  

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bignick
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Mon Jan-13-20 06:06 PM

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163. "Bernie, obviously. "
In response to Reply # 159


  

          

What with the multiple instances of him saying on camera that a woman could and should be president some day, him urging Warren to run in 2016 as a left alternative to Hillary, his fierce denial and her no comment.

This shit isn't hard guys.

  

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blkprinceMD05
Member since Nov 29th 2004
40467 posts
Mon Jan-13-20 11:33 PM

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178. "You were saying?"
In response to Reply # 163


  

          

prototype

stand ur ground, believe in urself,
believe in love, prepare urself for love, remove the negativity from ur life, and accept the love u kno u deserve

  

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rawsouthpaw
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Mon Jan-13-20 06:24 PM

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164. "CNN’s Sanders Hit Piece Doesn’t Pass the Smell Test - FAIR"
In response to Reply # 159


  

          


https://fair.org/home/cnns-sanders-hit-piece-doesnt-pass-the-smell-test/?fbclid=IwAR3S6dibaGO-hZsJAqkRze8onXCprmUG5FFgIwFgrHhGIriJXYCkvgcdo3o



CNN’s Sanders Hit Piece Doesn’t Pass the Smell Test
DAVE LINDORFF


by Dave Lindorff

Election Focus 2020CNN (1/13/19) has an anonymously sourced hit piece out today on Bernie Sanders, claiming that at a meeting in Elizabeth Warren’s home on December 18, 2018, he told her “a woman can’t win” the presidency.

The article, by CNN correspondent MJ Lee, is so journalistically shoddy that someone reading only the first few paragraphs would end up believing that it is a fact that the current top-polling candidate for the February 3 Iowa Caucus actually said that. Never is Sanders’ “quote” prefaced with the term “allegedly.”

None of the four anonymous staffers/friends making the charge of Sanders sexism were actually witnesses who were apparently in the room that day. Two, according to Lee, spoke to Warren “shortly after” that meeting. The other two “sources” were described only as people who “knew about the meeting.”

CNN: Bernie Sanders told Elizabeth Warren in private 2018 meeting that a woman can't win, sources say
CNN (1/13/19) on Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren: Let’s you and him fight.

Sanders issued a blistering denial to CNN, saying, “It is ludicrous to believe that at the same meeting where Elizabeth Warren told me she was going to run for president, I would tell her that a woman couldn’t win.” He added:

It’s sad that, three weeks before the Iowa caucus and a year after that private conversation, staff who weren’t in the room are lying about what happened. What I did say that night was that Donald Trump is a sexist, a racist and a liar who would weaponize whatever he could. Do I believe a woman can win in 2020? Of course! After all, Hillary Clinton beat Donald Trump by 3 million votes in 2016.

So far, Warren has not commented on the story, either to confirm or deny it.

The timing of this poorly sourced and poorly written story, appearing the day of a crucial candidates’ debate and days before the start of the actual primary season on a network that has been hostile to or dismissive of Sanders for years, is a journalistic outrage.

On its face, the claim allegedly made by Lee’s four anonymous sources makes no sense. Sanders is in fact on the record as far back as 1988, saying, “In my view, a woman could be elected president of the United States.” As Sanders points out in his debunking of CNN’s story, since then a woman has actually won the popular vote for the presidency; Hillary Clinton, whom Sanders campaigned for, could have won the electoral college as well, if she hadn’t neglected campaigning in key battleground states like Pennsylvania, Wisconsin and Michigan.


Why were CNN’s sources allowed to makes such an explosive, far-fetched claim anonymously? Anonymity is most justifiably granted to protect sources from retaliation for revealing damaging information about their superiors; would Warren staffers (assuming they were the source) be fired for giving an accurate account of their candidate’s conversation? When corporate media withhold the names of sources to allow them to make attacks against rivals without political consequences, that is an abuse of anonymous sourcing.

Sanders is clearly alarming powerful elements of America’s ruling elite: corporate executives who fear what is now being considered a possible Sanders presidency, and Democratic Party leaders who fear a Sanders presidential nomination will cut the party off from the river of cash it and its favored candidates have been collecting for decades from major industrial sectors, from Wall Street to Hollywood to the arms industry and the healthcare industrial complex. Not to mention the corporate media that are backed by ads from all these sectors.

This hit piece has the feel of the kind of attack that Sanders supporter Norman Solomon (Common Dreams, 12/27/19) warned of once Sanders’ polling began taking off and he could no longer be simply ignored.

Messages to CNN can be sent here (or via Twitter @CNN). Please remember that respectful communication is the most effective. Feel free to leave a copy of your message in the comments thread of this post.

  

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rawsouthpaw
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Mon Jan-13-20 08:21 PM

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165. "shit, didn't catch that this was about her saying this is what happened"
In response to Reply # 164


  

          

ahh this sucks

  

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rawsouthpaw
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Mon Jan-13-20 08:27 PM

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166. "bernie on the topic back when she was a republican"
In response to Reply # 159


  

          

https://mobile.twitter.com/meaganmday/status/1216793548567113728

  

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PimpTrickGangstaClik
Member since Oct 06th 2005
14525 posts
Mon Jan-13-20 08:49 PM

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169. "Those are different questions though"
In response to Reply # 166


  

          

Should a woman be president? Bernie says yes. Only policy matters.

Could a woman be president? Bernie says yes. Only policy matters and times are changing.

Could a women be president in 2020? Bernie says no (according to Warren). Trump will weaponize sexism making it hard to win.

The first 2 are equality type statements. The third one is just punditry.

_______________________________________
You ain't the only one whose got problems. You ain't the only one who knows pain. Get up off your ass and just solve them. You still got a chance to try to change, try the shit again.
Devin tha Dude

  

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Lurkmode
Member since May 07th 2011
3582 posts
Mon Jan-13-20 08:39 PM

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168. "Warren went on record and confirmed it "
In response to Reply # 159


  

          

smh at Bernie

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/warren-sanders-disagreed-woman-win-presidency-private-meeting/story?id=68258821

Presidential candidate Sen. Elizabeth Warren confirmed earlier reports Monday evening that Vermont Sen. Bernie Sanders disagreed with her that a woman could win in 2020 against President Donald Trump.

"Bernie and I met for more than two hours in December 2018 to discuss the 2020 election, our past work together and our shared goals," Warren said in a statement to ABC News. "Among the topics that came up was what would happen if Democrats nominated a female candidate. I thought a woman could win; he disagreed."

---------------------------
Signature

  

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kfine
Member since Jan 11th 2009
1210 posts
Mon Jan-13-20 09:57 PM

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170. "Even before Warren confirmed, I definitely did not believe Bernie. "
In response to Reply # 159


          


I remember hearing about a conversation of this nature super early in the cycle actually; there was some rumor about him telling her not to run. I wish I could remember the event. But she got asked point blank on stage in front of the audience whether the rumor was true and she refused to comment then too.

Tbh... none of this is that off-brand for Bernie. Those creepy misogynist rapey essays he wrote back in the day (https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/bernie-sanders-essay/ , https://www.inquisitr.com/5271159/bernie-sanders-essay-cancer-women-orgasm/) are enough to indicate *at minimum* a propensity toward this kind of attitude, even if he evolved somewhat (perhaps not enough).

It's also hard to take Bernie's "Who, meee? I would never!" schtick seriously given the attack dogs he hired to his campaign with obvious intent. Like I can't think of a more abrasive, obnoxious, twitter personality than David Sirota. Nina Turner and Briahna Joy supported the Greens in 2016. His top surrogates clearly give zero fucks about Warren, the party, or any other Dems, and it's visibly by design. He absolutely wanted to run a grimey operation and tbh his denials lately rub me worse than 45. Like 45 owns his toxicity and the toxicity he cultivates/encourages in others. But Bernie incites this crap and plays all unaware/innocent. Yuck.

  

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Lurkmode
Member since May 07th 2011
3582 posts
Mon Jan-13-20 10:17 PM

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171. "You going too far"
In response to Reply # 170


  

          

> Like I can't think of a more
>abrasive, obnoxious, twitter personality than David Sirota.
>Nina Turner and Briahna Joy supported the Greens in 2016. His
>top surrogates clearly give zero fucks about Warren, the
>party, or any other Dems, and it's visibly by design. He
>absolutely wanted to run a grimey operation and tbh his
>denials lately rub me worse than 45. Like 45 owns his toxicity
>and the toxicity he cultivates/encourages in others. But
>Bernie incites this crap and plays all unaware/innocent.
>Yuck.
>


It's one thing to call Bernie out but attacking Nina and the 45 comment is too much.

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kfine
Member since Jan 11th 2009
1210 posts
Mon Jan-13-20 10:28 PM

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172. "Thank you for sharing your opinion. We disagree."
In response to Reply # 171
Mon Jan-13-20 10:44 PM by kfine

          


edit: and how was that even an attack on Nina?? She *didn't* support the Dems in 2016 after Bernie lost the primary, that's just fact. I only brought it up to help illustrate that the folks being the most divisive in this primary may not actually be all that concerned about how their tactics may be hurting the party. Plus Nina goes about as hard offline against the others as Sirota goes online. You mean to tell me Bernie is unaware of the way they attack the rest of the primary field? Or that they're not only riding for the Dems right now because of Bernie? Bullshit. And it's ONLY Bernie's campaign/supporters that takes it so far.

  

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Lurkmode
Member since May 07th 2011
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Mon Jan-13-20 10:56 PM

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174. "Welcome"
In response to Reply # 172


  

          

>
>edit: and how was that even an attack on Nina??

abrasive, obnoxious, twitter personality <=== That's not an attack

She *didn't*
>support the Dems in 2016 after Bernie lost the primary, that's
>just fact.

That was a good thing. The problem wasn't Nina Turner, it was white women who didn't support the Dems.

I only brought it up to help illustrate that the
>folks being the most divisive in this primary may not actually
>be all that concerned about how their tactics may be hurting
>the party.

The most divisive ? Damn

Plus Nina goes about as hard offline against the
>others as Sirota goes online. You mean to tell me Bernie is
>unaware of the way they attack the rest of the primary field?
>Or that they're not only riding for the Dems right now because
>of Bernie? Bullshit. And it's ONLY Bernie's
>campaign/supporters that takes it so far.

Yes Bernie is aware

Hmmmm I will look into the rest.

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Vex_id
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Mon Jan-13-20 10:40 PM

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173. "I think your reaction to this proves that this doesn't move the needle m..."
In response to Reply # 170


          

You had a clear distaste for Sanders before this - and you likely reflexively want to believe that this is true because of your very clearly articulated distaste for his candidacy.

Alike, Sanders supporters are going to believe what they believe to be true about Sanders.

Not sure how this moves the needle for either candidate - although I think if anything - it hurts Warren for bringing this up *now* at this late hour, seeming to play politics with something that is a very serious allegation and would be in itself disqualifying (if it were true).

But guess who loses in all of this? Democrats, yet again, who just can't seem to get it right.

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Lurkmode
Member since May 07th 2011
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Mon Jan-13-20 11:00 PM

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175. "You movin the goal post"
In response to Reply # 173


  

          

"Very simple solution: Tomorrow at the CNN debate, it's journalistic malpractice to not simply ask Warren, directly: "Did Sanders tell you in that December 2018 meeting that a woman can't win?"

Warren needs to either corroborate this source and confirm the rumor - or she needs to call it out.

Of course, I expect neither to happen." - you


She did one better and confirmed it now.

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blkprinceMD05
Member since Nov 29th 2004
40467 posts
Mon Jan-13-20 11:34 PM

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179. "!!!!"
In response to Reply # 175


  

          

prototype

stand ur ground, believe in urself,
believe in love, prepare urself for love, remove the negativity from ur life, and accept the love u kno u deserve

  

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Vex_id
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Mon Jan-13-20 11:39 PM

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180. "That vague quote was sufficient for you?"
In response to Reply # 175


          

She needs to tell us exactly what Bernie said. All she said that was that he "disagreed" - but what did he actually say?

She followed that up with noting that she doesn't want to talk about this any further because she has so much in common with Sanders? Really? You have so much in common with a guy who just told you that you can't be President because you're a woman?

It doesn't make sense. She needs to answer the question at tomorrow's debate and tell the world exactly what Bernie said.


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blkprinceMD05
Member since Nov 29th 2004
40467 posts
Mon Jan-13-20 11:50 PM

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184. "whats vague about : ‘he said he didn’t think a woman could win, I "
In response to Reply # 180


  

          

Disagreed”

That definitely rang true to me when I read that it was during a discussion about how sanders was fretting leaning into identify politics.

I’m not even vilifying sanders for saying that, I think that was his practical perspective, feeling that the sexism in society would affect votes in certain swing states (as it did in 2016). I don’t take that as he wouldn’t vote himself for a woman or support a woman candidate but just feeling (like many do unfortunately) that a woman can’t win, or Black Person this time or a Latino etc . It’s the electability argument, it’s the same thing that is keeping Biden afloat amongst many Black voters.

But yeah sanders had to be reset in the last debate when he didn’t respond directly to a question about race, his distaste for identity politics is pretty easy to pick up on.

prototype

stand ur ground, believe in urself,
believe in love, prepare urself for love, remove the negativity from ur life, and accept the love u kno u deserve

  

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Vex_id
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Mon Jan-13-20 11:56 PM

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186. "Because she didn't say what he actually said."
In response to Reply # 184
Tue Jan-14-20 12:07 AM by Vex_id

          

She never said that he explicitly said "a woman can't be President." If that's what she's asserting then she needs to be crystal clear about it.

And yes - she needs to be asked about it at tomorrow's debate. This is a big deal. This can't and shouldn't just be thrown under the rug "because Bernie has so much in common with me." You can't have "so much in common" if a man fundamentally views you as unqualified for the highest office in the land because of your gender.

>I’m not even vilifying sanders for saying that, I think that
>was his practical perspective, feeling that the sexism in
>society would affect votes in certain swing states (as it did
>in 2016). I don’t take that as he wouldn’t vote himself
>for a woman or support a woman candidate but just feeling
>(like many do unfortunately) that a woman can’t win, or
>Black Person this time or a Latino etc . It’s the
>electability argument, it’s the same thing that is keeping
>Biden afloat amongst many Black voters.

>But yeah sanders had to be reset in the last debate when he
>didn’t respond directly to a question about race, his
>distaste for identity politics is pretty easy to pick up on.

Interesting points - but also somewhat tangential to the specific issue at hand: Did Sanders actually tell Warren that he doesn't believe a woman can be President? If so, it should be disqualifying and should career-ending for Sanders. Alike, if Warren embellished this story because of her rapidly declining poll numbers - then it's disqualifying and an ugly mark that will follow her for the rest of her career.

It's one thing to think that identity politics can get out of hand - it's quite another to deem somebody unqualified to be President because of immutable characteristics like race or gender.

This accusation should be taken very seriously.


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Lurkmode
Member since May 07th 2011
3582 posts
Tue Jan-14-20 10:36 AM

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202. "It's not vague if she corroborates the sources for the story"
In response to Reply # 180


  

          

>She needs to tell us exactly what Bernie said. All she said
>that was that he "disagreed" - but what did he actually say?
>

stretch

>She followed that up with noting that she doesn't want to talk
>about this any further because she has so much in common with
>Sanders? Really? You have so much in common with a guy who
>just told you that you can't be President because you're a
>woman?
>
>It doesn't make sense. She needs to answer the question at
>tomorrow's debate and tell the world exactly what Bernie
>said.
>
>

Bernie can't keep lying and blaming it on staff.

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kfine
Member since Jan 11th 2009
1210 posts
Mon Jan-13-20 11:23 PM

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176. "I agree, actually lol. I don't think it will move the needle much either..."
In response to Reply # 173


          


And yes, the infighting is bad for the party and eventual nominee.

You're right: folks' positions on Bernie and Warren probably do shape the reactions to this. But imho it's also easier to believe it happened because, after almost a year, people can just observe from where and to whom a lot of negativity flows. In fact given that you also favor Tulsi, and that I favor Pete, we probably see it more than most (lol). They are frequent targets. And nothing makes folks more combative than feeling defensive about their preferred candidate(s).

But I honestly do think Sanders bears some responsibility for the potently toxic dynamic in this primary. No other campaign is writing full-on op-eds about other candidates (eg. https://www.thestate.com/opinion/article239206718.html), dissing other candidates in speeches/ads (eg. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6sOevFFNR5g), protesting other candidates fundraisers/rallies etc. Talk less of the twitter swarms. Bernie's campaign has definitely taken it further than ANYONE else. I can't even think of any similar efforts from another campaign so far.


>You had a clear distaste for Sanders before this - and you
>likely reflexively want to believe that this is true because
>of your very clearly articulated distaste for his candidacy.
>
>Alike, Sanders supporters are going to believe what they
>believe to be true about Sanders.
>
>Not sure how this moves the needle for either candidate -
>although I think if anything - it hurts Warren for bringing
>this up *now* at this late hour, seeming to play politics with
>something that is a very serious allegation and would be in
>itself disqualifying (if it were true).
>
>But guess who loses in all of this? Democrats, yet again, who
>just can't seem to get it right.
>
>-->

  

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Vex_id
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Mon Jan-13-20 11:47 PM

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183. "Yea I know another Pete supporter who is always on edge"
In response to Reply # 176


          

because of the attacks launched at him - it has its way of putting you on the defensive and can be frustrating as all hell lol.

Seeing the way Tulsi has been raked through the coals has been pretty disgraceful - but quite predictable. Primary politics is about as ugly and dishonest as it gets - and yet here we are yet again with another "scandal" that just happens to surface at the most crucial hour of the primary lol.

I don't agree that Sanders has been more aggressive in his attacks than other candidates (big surprise there lol). When you look at the general media blackout of Sanders that persisted for months - and all of the smears and mischaracterizations of his support base - he's taken more than his share of cheap shots.

But I also think that people need to buckle up: this is Trump they're gonna face. There's no time for excessive politeness and wrapping hands with tissue. But what's been remarkable is that - up until now - Sanders and Warren had really been nothing but complimentary of each other - which again is why people are viewing this story by Warren with understandable skepticism.

But let me be clear: if Sanders did actually say that a woman can't be President - it's a disqualifying statement.

But Warren's gonna have to be a lot more convincing and specific than that vague statement she said - which she immediately walked back from in the same sentence.

How do you go from "He said a woman can't be President" to "Sanders and I share the same values" in the same sentence?

Wouldn't be the first time that Warren has embellished the truth on a form.


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