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Subject: "Who would you vote for today? Dem Primary-Second Poll: " Previous topic | Next topic
mista k5
Member since Feb 01st 2006
10256 posts
Thu Aug-08-19 03:42 PM

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"Poll question: Who would you vote for today? Dem Primary-Second Poll: "
Thu Aug-08-19 03:48 PM by mista k5

  

          

now that weve heard from the candidates who would you vote for if your primary was today?

9 have qualified for the next round of debates. i wonder how many will still be in the running by the time the next debate happens.

ALL REQUIREMENTS MET
Joe Biden - Former vice president
Cory Booker - Senator from New Jersey
Pete Buttigieg - Mayor of South Bend, Ind.
Kamala Harris - Senator from California
Amy Klobuchar - Senator from Minnesota
Beto O'Rourke - Former representative from Texas' 16th District
Bernie Sanders - Senator from Vermont
Elizabeth Warren - Senator from Massachusetts
Andrew Yang - Founder of Venture for America

DONOR REQUIREMENT MET
Julián Castro - Former secretary of housing and urban development
Tulsi Gabbard - Representative from Hawaii's 2nd District

NO REQUIREMENTS MET
Michael Bennet - Senator from Colorado
Steve Bullock - Governor of Montana
Bill de Blasio - Mayor of New York City
John Delaney - Former representative from Maryland's 6th District
Kirsten Gillibrand - Senator from New York
John Hickenlooper - Former governor of Colorado
Jay Inslee - Governor of Washington
Wayne Messam - Mayor of Miramar, Fla.
Seth Moulton - Representative from Massachusetts' 6th District
Tim Ryan - Representative from Ohio's 13th District
Joe Sestak - Former representative from Pennsylvania's 7th District
Tom Steyer - Billionaire business executive, activist
Marianne Williamson - Spiritual guru, entrepreneur

FYI
Who do you want to win the Dem nomination? (Initial Poll)
Poll result (87 votes)
Kamala Harris (16 votes) Vote
Joe Biden (4 votes) Vote
Bernie Sanders (35 votes) Vote
Beto O'Rourke (11 votes) Vote
Elizabeth Warren (13 votes) Vote
Other (post below) (8 votes) Vote

*edited for less scroll

Poll result (70 votes)
Joe Biden (4 votes)Vote
Bernie Sanders (16 votes)Vote
Elizabeth Warren (39 votes)Vote
Kamala Harris (3 votes)Vote
Pete Buttigieg (3 votes)Vote
Other (5 votes)Vote

  

  

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Topic Outline
Subject Author Message Date ID
im off beto and on to warren
Aug 08th 2019
1
I think the ticket should be Warren/Buttigieg or Warren/Harris
Aug 08th 2019
2
warren. most dems polled say warren
Aug 08th 2019
3
I don't see this:
Aug 08th 2019
9
      how far should we really be going back?
Aug 09th 2019
23
           Yeah the pro-Biden argument is pretty selective
Aug 09th 2019
33
           i see both sides of it
Aug 09th 2019
34
                Fair but Warren seems to have a plan for that lol
Aug 09th 2019
37
                     i thought biden was the most electable til he actually started running.
Aug 09th 2019
38
                          Definitely
Aug 10th 2019
44
           McCain/Palin is a particularly interesting case, though.
Aug 09th 2019
40
                Trump was not the moderate.
Aug 10th 2019
43
                     trump was viewed as the moderate to a lot of people.
Aug 10th 2019
49
                     Sure but you could use the very data you posted
Aug 10th 2019
54
                     Respectfully, I think you're suffering from partisan blinders.
Aug 10th 2019
50
                     n/m
Aug 12th 2019
57
                     Maybe, but to be fair
Aug 12th 2019
64
                     Correct Trump is not a moderate but you are discussing this with
Aug 12th 2019
58
                          For the record I never said he was a moderate.
Aug 12th 2019
59
                               Ok let me correct my post. Trump is seen as moderate by unicorns
Aug 12th 2019
65
                                    So you're ignoring data that goes against your preconceptions.
Aug 12th 2019
74
                                         No I'm challenging the argument because it is weak.
Aug 13th 2019
75
btw medicare for all is a political loser (ive been saying for a while).
Aug 08th 2019
4
i think making private insurance illegal is a loser
Aug 08th 2019
5
The Issues: Politico Guide to Candidates
Aug 08th 2019
6
still the same as 2016: Bernie is the only real option
Aug 08th 2019
7
what’s up with Yang?
Aug 08th 2019
8
this piece he wrote on gun control is so fucking on point
Aug 09th 2019
11
Wrong Yang, but that seems authoritarian as hell
Aug 09th 2019
13
i think she was asking about Andrew Yang, not Jeff
Aug 09th 2019
16
      Oh shit haha, my quick-skimming ass fell for it too smh
Aug 09th 2019
17
           when i started reading it i thought what a coincedence
Aug 09th 2019
18
                We got hosed lol
Aug 09th 2019
19
My fav thing bout Yang: enthusiasm 4 problem-solving over politics
Aug 09th 2019
20
All you need to know about Yang
Aug 09th 2019
25
he needs a cabinet seat for sure.. dude is on point.
Aug 13th 2019
78
He's really unconvincing when he cries.
Aug 13th 2019
80
      I thought I was the only one
Aug 14th 2019
105
I wanted Warren to run last time
Aug 08th 2019
10
Tulsi first...Yang and Bernie tied close behind her...Warren acceptable
Aug 09th 2019
12
As of right now, I want a Warren/Castro ticket.
Aug 09th 2019
14
I like the that Castro is an urban dev guy. Id send him my ideas lol
Aug 09th 2019
15
Warren, then maybe Kamala
Aug 09th 2019
21
Warren but I'm not convinced she can win
Aug 09th 2019
22
I read a tweet recently that was like, stop worrying about "electability...
Aug 09th 2019
24
yeah Biden looks even older than I thought
Aug 09th 2019
26
i mean on one hand i agree
Aug 09th 2019
30
      That tweet made no declaration about who should win lol
Aug 09th 2019
31
           oh i know
Aug 09th 2019
32
                Hahah word and in that case - co-sign.
Aug 09th 2019
36
RE: Warren but I'm not convinced she can win
Aug 09th 2019
28
      LOL - exactly.
Aug 09th 2019
29
      lol she got the russian government playing defense for her.
Aug 09th 2019
39
Slate’s guide to the presidential candidates
Aug 09th 2019
27
bernie all day every day
Aug 09th 2019
35
poor Bernie, clearly the best choice but cant catch a break
Aug 09th 2019
41
I like that Joe Rogan podcast the other day
Aug 09th 2019
42
      if you ever listen to bernie explain why he wants to do things
Aug 12th 2019
56
Ideas for Warrens VP?
Aug 10th 2019
45
ideally a black moderate.
Aug 10th 2019
46
I agree but any ideas on who specifically?
Aug 10th 2019
48
Castro Castro Castro!
Aug 10th 2019
52
I really like Castro actually
Aug 12th 2019
61
Interesting. I love Castro but don't see a particularly strong coalition
Aug 12th 2019
62
      oddly enough (or not) i dont see latinos being excited for a latino
Aug 12th 2019
63
           Lol not odd at all, and I feel you 100%. Another ex: I'm a black female
Aug 12th 2019
66
she needs Bernie and vice versa..
Aug 13th 2019
79
btw if warren wins office then a repub gov picks her replacement.
Aug 10th 2019
47
Ain't nooooo one tlking about this
Aug 10th 2019
51
Shit, somehow even I wasn't aware of this.
Aug 10th 2019
53
Well, she's pretty much already endorsed Joe Kennedy III's run if
Aug 12th 2019
60
      warren herself isnt that popular in massachusetts
Aug 12th 2019
67
           Oh absolutely! I wasn't trying to imply that they aren't lol
Aug 12th 2019
69
                yeah on paper its a race that dems *should* win
Aug 12th 2019
70
                     Right. Ya I also think the dynastic element is an asset too, as wack
Aug 12th 2019
71
Andrew Yang or Warren
Aug 11th 2019
55
I feel like the practical democratic nominee never wins
Aug 12th 2019
68
'democrats fall in love. republicans fall in line.'
Aug 12th 2019
72
I think Sanders/Warren is a winning ticket, with
Aug 12th 2019
73
That sounds awesome tbh
Aug 13th 2019
76
horrible move. that would likely alienate large swaths of the base.
Aug 13th 2019
81
      Yeah, that's just a redundant ticket to me. I don't understand why you
Aug 13th 2019
82
           this would be the smart thing to do but egos.
Aug 13th 2019
83
                RE: this would be the smart thing to do but egos.
Aug 13th 2019
88
                     bernie isnt really running a good campaign.
Aug 13th 2019
91
Bernie/Warren or Warren/Bernie ticket will be powerful as fuck...
Aug 13th 2019
77
they would objectively do worse than clinton/kaine.
Aug 13th 2019
84
lol what wildshit are you basing this on?
Aug 13th 2019
89
real life lol.
Aug 13th 2019
90
      so nothing.. thanks.
Aug 13th 2019
92
           did you miss 2018?
Aug 14th 2019
104
LOL @ "objectively"
Aug 13th 2019
94
      big sparta feel free to join in.
Aug 14th 2019
112
No data to support my musings but: I feel like if Sanders won the nom
Aug 13th 2019
96
      im more and more suspicious of pete (for no real good reason)
Aug 13th 2019
97
           Lol!
Aug 13th 2019
98
Harris and the rest of the field minus Tulsi as her cabinet.
Aug 13th 2019
85
Other Votes - check in
Aug 13th 2019
86
Delaney!
Aug 13th 2019
87
I need to see that parody commercial.
Aug 13th 2019
93
      That cold-blooded Bill Dauterive-looking goon would do it
Aug 14th 2019
99
I like Warren at this point. But I need folks to drop out to be sure
Aug 13th 2019
95
RE: I like Warren at this point. But I need folks to drop out to be sure
Aug 14th 2019
100
      ^^^^ Bernie Sanders.
Aug 14th 2019
101
      lol dudes 1st post he came in *hot*.
Aug 14th 2019
102
      lol i didnt even notice that
Aug 14th 2019
103
           his stats are a pretty damning indictment of bernie as a candidate.
Aug 14th 2019
107
           His "me against the world" mentality isn't helping either.
Aug 14th 2019
109
           yeah dude is repelling even people who like his policies.
Aug 14th 2019
111
                I get lower on Bernie the more I interact/read/hear his supporters
Aug 14th 2019
130
                     dude is acting like bernie wasnt the clear okp poll frontrunner
Aug 14th 2019
135
                     RE: dude is acting like bernie wasnt the clear okp poll frontrunner
Aug 14th 2019
144
                     RE: I get lower on Bernie the more I interact/read/hear his supporters
Aug 14th 2019
142
           RE: his stats are a pretty damning indictment of bernie as a candidate.
Aug 14th 2019
113
           Hell yeah, dude
Aug 14th 2019
114
           warren isnt a fighter? shes a weapon of the establishment???
Aug 14th 2019
115
                RE: warren isnt a fighter? shes a weapon of the establishment???
Aug 14th 2019
117
                cmon fam you gotta admit this is some trumpian goalpost moving.
Aug 14th 2019
132
                     RE: cmon fam you gotta admit this is some trumpian goalpost moving.
Aug 14th 2019
134
                          wait youre co-opting amazon damage control pr statements now
Aug 14th 2019
136
                               RE: wait youre co-opting amazon damage control pr statements now
Aug 14th 2019
138
                Thank you.
Aug 14th 2019
118
           warren isn't running the same platform
Aug 16th 2019
170
           upon further review: mods please delete my comment
Aug 14th 2019
133
      Pretty sure it's a Vex alias.
Aug 14th 2019
121
           RE: Pretty sure it's a Vex alias.
Aug 14th 2019
123
           LOL, true, we are a very selective group.
Aug 14th 2019
124
           Hahaha
Aug 14th 2019
125
           lol
Aug 14th 2019
127
           lol honestly had the same thought
Aug 14th 2019
131
           lol glad to see even after a long absence, I'm still on your mind
Aug 14th 2019
139
      bernie isnt even the 1st choice for 2016 *bernie* voters anymore lol.
Aug 14th 2019
106
      Not the person you're talking to, but this is the counter argument
Aug 14th 2019
108
      thats typical of early polling.
Aug 14th 2019
110
      that's true and an important point, but the question is:
Aug 14th 2019
140
           warrens achilles heel might be black voters.
Aug 14th 2019
141
                Define "the black vote" though..
Aug 14th 2019
146
                oh im just using it as shorthand for the majority of black voters.
Aug 14th 2019
148
                     right, I hear ya
Aug 14th 2019
150
                how much of warren's inability to reach black voters is based on
Aug 16th 2019
161
                yeah black voters more often support
Aug 16th 2019
188
                Biden is being buoyed by black voters (just like Clinton was)
Aug 16th 2019
180
                     yup to all this.
Aug 16th 2019
189
      well this tells me who NOT to vote for, LMAO
Aug 14th 2019
126
           RE: well this tells me who NOT to vote for, LMAO
Aug 14th 2019
128
           BRUH, LMAO
Aug 16th 2019
171
                Right? lol The #NeverBernie movement is real.
Aug 16th 2019
179
                     yall do realize the point of elections is to win the most votes right?
Aug 16th 2019
202
                          That's the thing. Vex and this new dude consider this "trashing"
Aug 16th 2019
206
                          RE: That's the thing. Vex and this new dude consider this "trashing"
Aug 16th 2019
217
                          not sure why this even needed to be said.
Aug 16th 2019
215
Do Dems need to come to terms that HRC was the wrong candidate in 2016?
Aug 14th 2019
116
Yea probably.
Aug 14th 2019
120
LOLOL
Aug 16th 2019
172
Of course they do - and of course (most) of them won't.
Aug 16th 2019
194
      you are absolutely correct.
Aug 19th 2019
239
I've been paying more attention to Tulsi Gabbard lately.
Aug 14th 2019
119
Pass on Tulsi Gabbard
Aug 14th 2019
122
      yea isn't she BFF's with Putin?
Aug 14th 2019
137
      Take off the blinders, put the strawman down
Aug 14th 2019
143
           ok - let's debate it.
Aug 14th 2019
145
                Tulsi wasn't going to get anything out of it.
Aug 14th 2019
147
                     Tulsi out here calling homosexuals extremists
Aug 15th 2019
151
                     Yep that too
Aug 15th 2019
153
                     RE: Tulsi out here calling homosexuals extremists
Aug 16th 2019
157
                          She did say it tho, although she's now apologizing.
Aug 16th 2019
173
                          RE: Tulsi out here calling homosexuals extremists
Aug 16th 2019
174
                               RE: Tulsi out here calling homosexuals extremists
Aug 16th 2019
178
                     It shows poor leadership to meet leaders of another country?
Aug 16th 2019
158
                          RE: It shows poor leadership to meet leaders of another country?
Aug 16th 2019
160
                          RE: It shows poor leadership to meet leaders of another country?
Aug 16th 2019
169
                          RE: It shows poor leadership to meet leaders of another country?
Aug 16th 2019
176
                          was Tulsi president?
Aug 16th 2019
166
                          No - and neither was Obama when he said it
Aug 16th 2019
175
                               My point was the false equivalency comparing what Obama
Aug 16th 2019
182
                                    it's really not as hard as you're making it out to be.
Aug 16th 2019
184
                                         Not my conversation but this is a good point
Aug 16th 2019
207
                          Yes it does when the leaders of her party didn't know she met Assad
Aug 16th 2019
168
                               so you're mad that she didn't inform Nancy? lol
Aug 16th 2019
177
                                    More strawman ?
Aug 16th 2019
181
                                         RE: More strawman ?
Aug 16th 2019
183
                                         Bias
Aug 16th 2019
214
                                              RE: Bias
Aug 16th 2019
219
                                                   RE: Bias
Aug 16th 2019
220
                                                        RE: Bias
Aug 16th 2019
229
                                         Yikes.
Aug 16th 2019
185
                                              Smh more spinning
Aug 16th 2019
196
                                                   Yea we can end this right here.
Aug 16th 2019
198
                                                        It never started
Aug 16th 2019
201
                                                             Please, cite some more PNAC authorities for us.
Aug 16th 2019
216
                                                                  It didn't end ? Guardian is PNAC and Rumsfeld never met Saddam
Aug 16th 2019
222
                                                                       yea that's deep.
Aug 16th 2019
225
                                                                            Substance
Aug 16th 2019
226
      Hard Pass
Aug 16th 2019
156
elizabeth warren economic expertise in 2 acts:
Aug 14th 2019
129
hickenlooper out.
Aug 14th 2019
149
Good. The bottom half should follow suit.
Aug 15th 2019
152
whos next?
Aug 16th 2019
163
Cardi B Bernie full discussion out
Aug 15th 2019
154
green, ay day all day. and not even close.
Aug 15th 2019
155
biden team thinking about scaling back public appearances
Aug 16th 2019
159
yup
Aug 16th 2019
164
Yea I mean this is wild, he's clearly slipping, but ...
Aug 16th 2019
165
fake a health issue
Aug 16th 2019
167
      seriously just hire somebody to shoot yourself.
Aug 16th 2019
192
           YIIIIKES lol
Aug 16th 2019
208
pure entitlement imo.
Aug 16th 2019
186
      RE: pure entitlement imo.
Aug 16th 2019
193
obama or biden folks now leaking obama warned biden not to run
Aug 16th 2019
187
      not surprised if true...
Aug 16th 2019
191
           i seen somebody say joe biden got worse takes than joe budden.
Aug 16th 2019
195
                LOL.
Aug 16th 2019
218
everyday on social media is 2016
Aug 16th 2019
162
beto reboots presidential campaign (for the 3rd time).
Aug 16th 2019
190
if he doesnt have a big rebound with the third debate he has to go
Aug 16th 2019
197
betos fundraising dropped off a cliff in the 2nd qtr too.
Aug 16th 2019
200
yeah wasnt sure how to refer to blind biden supporters
Aug 16th 2019
203
      warren clearly has the *heart* of dem voters.
Aug 16th 2019
209
           Exactly right.
Aug 16th 2019
212
Warren.
Aug 16th 2019
211
the Mark Sanchez of politics
Aug 16th 2019
199
What's his butt fumble equivalent tho
Aug 16th 2019
213
he almost out here looking like Mike McMahon in the light, LOL
Aug 19th 2019
241
he looks good on headlines and says and tweets the right things
Aug 19th 2019
238
biden and warren in statistical tie in new national poll.
Aug 16th 2019
204
thats kind of wild
Aug 16th 2019
205
shes gonna have to make herself visible/audible to more black people.
Aug 16th 2019
210
      ^^^ this. What has sold me on her ability to win
Aug 16th 2019
223
Sanders is in that statistical tie too. Why'd they leave that out?
Aug 16th 2019
221
5% difference with a 2.6% margin of error?
Aug 16th 2019
224
I'm just pointing out the misleading headline
Aug 16th 2019
227
      They shouldn't use the words "statistical tie."
Aug 16th 2019
228
statistical tie = lead less than the margin of error.
Aug 17th 2019
231
Nah
Aug 17th 2019
232
      fam im telling you exactly what they mean when they say statistical tie.
Aug 17th 2019
233
           Nah
Aug 17th 2019
234
                cant read it because of the paywall but i talked to a pollster
Aug 20th 2019
247
                     Yeah all that is what me and strav were talking about above
Aug 20th 2019
248
The Dem Establishment still can't admit what's happening on the ground.
Aug 18th 2019
236
how the hell is Biden doing this
Aug 19th 2019
240
New CNN poll: Biden doubling his nearest competitors.
Aug 20th 2019
250
      How the fuck does this happen ?!
Aug 20th 2019
251
           I can think of a few things...
Aug 20th 2019
254
                Good points.
Aug 20th 2019
268
warren chipping away at bidens 'electability' lead. 14 pt surge.
Aug 17th 2019
230
Tulsi Gabbard
Aug 18th 2019
235
Bernie releases comprehensive plan to cut prison population in half
Aug 19th 2019
237
I am voting for Warren. She is CLEARLY the best choice
Aug 19th 2019
242
Biden's wife comes through with the weakest spousal endorsement
Aug 20th 2019
243
She cheating on Joe
Aug 20th 2019
244
Hahaha yea this shit was hilarious.
Aug 20th 2019
245
very inspiring message.
Aug 20th 2019
246
Its absurd
Aug 20th 2019
253
      Of course Joe's racist.
Aug 20th 2019
256
      believe it or not
Aug 20th 2019
264
      fam this part here:
Aug 20th 2019
259
      It's not just the demographics - it's also the ideas/philosophy
Aug 20th 2019
260
           its weird. the 2nd top choice for both sanders and biden voters
Aug 20th 2019
263
                Some pretty fascinating data there.
Aug 20th 2019
266
      I don't think you're thinking all this through.
Aug 20th 2019
261
           Its possible to think things through and disagree with you
Aug 20th 2019
262
                You really take it personal when called out for saying something dumb.
Aug 20th 2019
267
                     huh? last one man
Aug 20th 2019
269
                          I'm sorry that I'm an asshole. And even more sorry that you're wrong.
Aug 20th 2019
271
I'm crying
Aug 20th 2019
252
Julian Castro has qualified for the 3rd debate.
Aug 20th 2019
249
glad to see him make it
Aug 20th 2019
255
well-deserved. I've been impressed with him at every turn.
Aug 20th 2019
257
      same
Aug 20th 2019
265
susan sarandon is back. taking shots at elizabeth warren.
Aug 20th 2019
258
ON NO NOT SUSAN SARANDON!!!!
Aug 22nd 2019
285
      lol right? Susan and Jill are the reason we have Trump OMG'Z!
Aug 22nd 2019
287
           honest questions. do you think surrogates like sarandon do any damage
Aug 22nd 2019
299
                only if that person is a weak minded idiot
Aug 22nd 2019
303
honestly who watches dude and thinks he is ready for a fight in 2020?
Aug 20th 2019
270
Come on, we should be rolling our eyes at this one.
Aug 20th 2019
272
damn bro i should know better than to promote an rnc twitter account
Aug 20th 2019
275
      I'm kinda with you there.
Aug 20th 2019
276
           look man i tried to deny it but biden flat out sucks.
Aug 22nd 2019
297
So true.
Aug 20th 2019
273
smh who does this sound like?
Aug 20th 2019
274
Folks haven't figured out if we need a Dem Trump or an Anti-Trump.
Aug 21st 2019
277
damn
Aug 21st 2019
279
well said
Aug 21st 2019
278
The Biden/establishment Dems are wrong, he is not the only way to win
Aug 21st 2019
280
jay inslee out.
Aug 21st 2019
281
I took a liking to this dude after the last debates.
Aug 21st 2019
282
The Green New Deal
Aug 22nd 2019
283
It'd be nice if it attempted to do something about climate.
Aug 22nd 2019
284
could you expand on this?
Aug 22nd 2019
286
      RE: could you expand on this?
Aug 22nd 2019
288
           i've been reading stravinskian's posts for years. who the fuck are you?
Aug 22nd 2019
290
                I think it's Vex.
Aug 22nd 2019
294
                lol.... i don't think its Vex. he's not *that* foolish
Aug 22nd 2019
302
                LOL
Aug 22nd 2019
295
                seriously.
Aug 22nd 2019
296
                scientist vs "i read a thing"
Aug 22nd 2019
298
                lol yeah I disagree with him on some things
Aug 22nd 2019
300
                stands in this fucking line
Aug 22nd 2019
301
                     Correct. I'm convinced that dude is a bot.
Aug 22nd 2019
304
The agricultural changes the plans talks about seem reasonable.
Aug 22nd 2019
289
      the problem isn't small farms
Aug 22nd 2019
291
           RE: the problem isn't small farms
Aug 22nd 2019
292
                this doesnt address climate change- this redresses income inequity
Aug 22nd 2019
293
Seth Moulton drops out
Aug 23rd 2019
305

mista k5
Member since Feb 01st 2006
10256 posts
Thu Aug-08-19 03:45 PM

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1. "im off beto and on to warren"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

both in who i want to get the nomination and would vote for today.

i really like what warren has been doing and i dont think her past issues will matter.

  

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walihorse
Member since Aug 03rd 2006
15710 posts
Thu Aug-08-19 03:55 PM

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2. "I think the ticket should be Warren/Buttigieg or Warren/Harris"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

I'm all in on Warren though.

If a fat guy falls in the woods and there is no one around to see it, do the trees laugh?

  

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Reeq
Member since Mar 11th 2013
6958 posts
Thu Aug-08-19 04:17 PM

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3. "warren. most dems polled say warren"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

when asked who they would vote for based on their own issues/values.

when people are asked who can beat trump (electability)...biden comes out on top.

im starting to think that 'electability' is a trap for dems.

when dems vote based on some mythical metric of who they think *other* people will vote for...they lose (kerry, mondale, etc). when dems just say fuck it and go for who they are most inspired by and passionate about...they knock it out of the park (obama, clinton, etc).

------

  

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stravinskian
Member since Feb 24th 2003
11723 posts
Thu Aug-08-19 06:51 PM

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9. "I don't see this:"
In response to Reply # 3


          

>im starting to think that 'electability' is a trap for dems.
>
>when dems vote based on some mythical metric of who they think
>*other* people will vote for...they lose (kerry, mondale,
>etc). when dems just say fuck it and go for who they are most
>inspired by and passionate about...they knock it out of the
>park (obama, clinton, etc).

The whole thing's clouded by the vagaries of small-number statistics, but I think there are counterexamples.

Maybe it was a different time, but George McGovern wasn't running on electability. He ran on big ideas and got a lot of people really passionate, and he fell like a rock.

Clinton was the darling of the Democratic Leadership Council. He was the one who got people talking about "New Democrats."

Obama, yeah he was an exciting candidate, but he also came to everyone's attention through a speech about there not being a "red America" and a "blue America." Then he made a point of running to the right of Hillary Clinton on nearly every issue in 2008.

Bill Clinton and Barack Obama were exciting AND electable.

The way I see it, both of these are necessary but not sufficient conditions. In general, we need both. And sadly I don't think there's anyone right now that has both.


The only winning Dem I can think of who only had only one of these was Jimmy Carter, who didn't run an exciting campaign at all. But as a southern governor he didn't scare anybody and was able to coast on the unpopularity of Gerry Ford.

That's why my money, and probably my vote, is still on Biden, even though he finds a new way to infuriate me just about every day.

  

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Mynoriti
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Fri Aug-09-19 11:54 AM

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23. "how far should we really be going back?"
In response to Reply # 9


  

          

in 72/76 we still at least had a consensus on what "news" was

excitement/passion whatever you want to call it seems to have only grown as a factor, and even on the republican end the safe candidates like Romney lost. Shit, McCain's only excitement came through Palin and her fuck what we're "supposed" to do dumpsterfire approach that Trump seized on and ran with




--------
http://ambitiondeficitdisorder.tumblr.com/

  

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Stadiq
Member since Dec 21st 2005
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Fri Aug-09-19 12:46 PM

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33. "Yeah the pro-Biden argument is pretty selective"
In response to Reply # 23
Fri Aug-09-19 12:51 PM by Stadiq

          



For instance, when’s the last time a 30 year Washington
vet ran for pres and won? Hell, on either side?

And the last few safe/more moderate choices were folks like
Hillary, McCain, Kerry, etc.


How is he the most “electable” when there’s
a lot more examples of similar candidates losing?


He’d be our Bob Dole or Romney.

  

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Mynoriti
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34. "i see both sides of it"
In response to Reply # 33


  

          

because dems can generate all this excitement and passion, win by millions of votes and still lose the states they need by going balls out left.

--------
http://ambitiondeficitdisorder.tumblr.com/

  

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Stadiq
Member since Dec 21st 2005
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Fri Aug-09-19 02:17 PM

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37. "Fair but Warren seems to have a plan for that lol"
In response to Reply # 34


          


Her farmer/ag stuff seems legit to me.

I’d also argue turnout in liberal areas in those states
would/could be better.

But this is another issue I have with the “Biden is
our only hope” folks- Beto is kicking trumps ass
in Texas polls, no? How many electoral votes
is that?

My point is that the “Biden or bust” folks aren’t
being as pragmatic as they say- they just like
Biden and won’t admit it or they haven’t thought
about every angle.

“Biden’s the most electable!” * looks at modern
history, sees that every similar candidate lost

“Biden is beating Trump in key states!” Looks at
polls, sees everyone from Bernie to Warren to
Beto beating him in key states

Etc.

I’m not saying there isn’t an argument for Joe. But
this idea that he’s the only hope is terrible.

I do think if it ends up being Biden, he needs to
lock up Warren as VP and adopt some of her
plans. I used to think he needed to lock down
Abrams, but I think Warren would deliver more
voters he wouldn’t get excited otherwise.

  

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Reeq
Member since Mar 11th 2013
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Fri Aug-09-19 02:42 PM

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38. "i thought biden was the most electable til he actually started running. "
In response to Reply # 37


  

          

its weird how hes considered super-electable and hillary wasnt.

hes even more exposed on the crime bill (actually wrote it), hes a horrible campaigner (hill didnt stick her foot in her mouth every week), he doesnt poll as well as hillary did with black OR college educated white voters (who were responsible for dem midterms gains). and while biden gaslights his own base into believing republicans are warm and fuzzy and practical colleagues...clinton has been telling folks who republicans really were going back to the 90s.

this whole 'electability' argument for *this* particular race is pretty much an open admission of how sexist the country (and dc press) is.

------

  

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Stadiq
Member since Dec 21st 2005
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Sat Aug-10-19 02:36 PM

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44. "Definitely"
In response to Reply # 38
Sat Aug-10-19 02:37 PM by Stadiq

          

I get the Biden argument, I just think it’s weak. You
have to gloss over a ton of shit to get to “it’s biden”

And he looks old man. Those debates were hard to
watch.

If get faded by a Booker line, how’s it going to go
vs Trump? Cory practiced that shit in the mirror
for weeks, and Joe looked lost.

And if Biden can’t make a pro-Obama let’s rewind
the clock 4 years case to a stage/room full of
Dems....how’s it going to go in the general?

Castro actually impressed me. I think he’d be the
better Obama heir here- he can articulate what worked
and what can be better still.

  

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stravinskian
Member since Feb 24th 2003
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Fri Aug-09-19 03:42 PM

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40. "McCain/Palin is a particularly interesting case, though."
In response to Reply # 23
Fri Aug-09-19 03:45 PM by stravinskian

          

They knew McCain wasn't exciting to their base, so they added Palin specifically to help with that. But she quickly became a net negative for that ticket, still exciting their base (most of whom would have voted anyway, excited or not), but turning off way more moderates (who either didn't vote or voted Obama).

You're right that Trump seemed to expand on a lot of the Palin-style rhetoric and it seems to have worked for him. But that overlooks the fact that Trump was seen as the more moderate candidate of that race, on policy, largely because he explicitly ran against his party's longstanding priorities on Social Security and Medicare. Trump wasn't running as a partisan. He was just running as an asshole. And Americans like assholes.

Palin was very exciting to her base but poison to the general electorate. I just wish the Dem base could see that such a dynamic can exist, and that certain policies that seem great to us and work as candy in the primary can then kill us in the general election. Biden, as terrible a campaigner as he is, seems to be the only one (other than no-shot candidates like Hickenlooper, Bennet, and Inslee) watching out for this. The primary is not the prize.

  

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Stadiq
Member since Dec 21st 2005
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Sat Aug-10-19 02:27 PM

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43. "Trump was not the moderate. "
In response to Reply # 40


          


Saying he wouldn’t touch the safety net doesn’t
wipe out the other right wing shit he was slangin.

The Dems whole strategy was that Hill would
be the more reasonable candidate and pick up
suburban GOP votes.

From immigration, to torching Obamacare, to Iran,
Etc- He was right wing with a populist bent.

That said, did anyone even believe him on not
touching the safety net?

Hillary was the safe choice- the continuity.


And even if you really believe that Trump was the
moderate in the race- there’s no way in hell he’d
be the moderate in 20.

He’s spent his admin essentially being president
to his base and his base only.

He doesn’t even pretend to give a fuck about
anyone else.


The Dems would have to go left as fuck to make
Trump seem moderate.


That said, I do agree with you that Dems gotta
tighten it up on specific issues and not scaring
the shit out of slow Americans.

  

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Reeq
Member since Mar 11th 2013
6958 posts
Sat Aug-10-19 05:48 PM

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49. "trump was viewed as the moderate to a lot of people."
In response to Reply # 43
Sat Aug-10-19 05:54 PM by Reeq

  

          

sounds crazy but we live in a dumb country.

the press was sucking him off for simply saying gay people are human beings at the rnc, 'entitlements' wont be touched, etc. and it worked.

not to mention everyone viewed hillary as the hawk and trump as the dove.

i posted the 538 analysis on here a while ago. 'never hillary' voters were more likely to be moderate/conservatives dems/swingies who felt she/dems were going too far left than they were to be progressives (despite the prevailing narrative).

20% of hillary voters voted for mccain in 2008. only 10% of bernie folks didnt vote for hillary (including 3rd party). and they had legit gripes with the national party.

just think about 'democrats' like howard schultz compared to democrats like michael moore. who is more likely to vote for a dem candidate in todays party and who is more likely to peel off because the party is 'too extreme'?

thats the lens we view 'moderate' through.

------

  

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Stadiq
Member since Dec 21st 2005
3339 posts
Sat Aug-10-19 06:54 PM

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54. "Sure but you could use the very data you posted"
In response to Reply # 49


          


As proof of Hillary’s relative moderate standing.

That’s a decent chunk of Hil voters that swung to
McCain.

I don’t have time at the moment, but I take issue
with the idea that the more moderate candidate
wins.

Seems to me Obama was left of Hill in 08, and given
that such a large chunk of her support went to
‘Maverick’ McCain....seems Obama was less
moderate than him too.

Now, o was a brilliant candidate but the argument
stands- don’t worry so much about electability.

To the specific point tho- if moderate equals continuity,
then I just refuse to believe folks thought Trump
would be less of a gamble than Hillary.

He was a fucking hand grenade to the system.

I also don’t think that because people hated hillary
so much = they thought she was too progressive,

Lady has been attacked since the 90s, etc.

I have more thoughts but gotta run.

  

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stravinskian
Member since Feb 24th 2003
11723 posts
Sat Aug-10-19 06:03 PM

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50. "Respectfully, I think you're suffering from partisan blinders."
In response to Reply # 43


          

>
>Saying he wouldn’t touch the safety net doesn’t
>wipe out the other right wing shit he was slangin.

This isn't an issue of your opinion versus mine. There is very clear data on this.

https://news.gallup.com/poll/196064/trump-seen-less-conservative-prior-gop-candidates.aspx

It wasn't just his false promises on medicare and SS. He said he wanted an infrastructure deal, which has been a Dem priority for decades. He said he'd cut taxes for the middle class and raise taxes for the wealthy and corporations. He said he supported LGBT rights. He said the NRA had too much influence, for God's sake.

He didn't just say he was gonna kill Obamacare, he said Obamacare was "failing," an uncontroversial view at the time as it's what the press had reported for years. But he said he'd find a way to give people "terrific" health care and he specifically said "we're gonna preserve preexisting." He didn't even know what the word meant but he knew he had to promise it. He benefited a lot from vagueness, and he gave people the impression that they'd just revert to the pre-Obamacare system with the only change being that everyone would get coverage.

Clever people like you and I were able to see through those patently false promises. But the overall voting public, on average, saw a non-politician, running against his party's longstanding priorities, "telling it like it is." They also saw a billionaire who couldn't have become a billionaire without being a genius negotiator, who has enough money that he "can't be bought."

Voters are fucking idiots. Being the reality-based party, we will always be forced to contend with this unfortunate reality.



>The Dems whole strategy was that Hill would
>be the more reasonable candidate and pick up
>suburban GOP votes.

There was a "two lane" dynamic where the public was seeing Hillary as the candidate who spoke in a more reasonable way while also seeing Trump as the candidate who would be less partisan. And a lot of voters decided they didn't care how Trump talks.

But the problem for the campaign was: there just wasn't a way for them to break this dynamic where Trump was seen as less partisan. Trump could speak against base priorities without offending his base. Hillary could not. 'Conservatives' were hungry after being out of power for eight years, and progressives were complacent and thought the world had actually changed when it most certainly had not.

The campaign blared every day that they had the most progressive platform in history. The small number of voters who considered themselves progressive loved it. Even the Bernie voters, who I'll admit largely did fall in line thanks to the party jerking them off. The much larger group of voters who didn't consider themselves progressive got worried.

This is classic political strategy -- you run to the center in the general election. Trump was allowed to run to the center and Hillary was not. That wasn't a Hillary thing, or a Trump thing, or a Bernie thing. It's just the dynamics of one party holding the presidency for eight years.

Faced with this major disadvantage, the Clinton campaign did what they could, they ran as the campaign with less partisan rhetoric when they couldn't escape the fact that they had a significantly more partisan platform. And of course it didn't work, but it was the best they could have done.


>From immigration, to torching Obamacare, to Iran,
>Etc- He was right wing with a populist bent.
>
>That said, did anyone even believe him on not
>touching the safety net?

Yup. Voters are stupid.

But by the way, he didn't touch the safety net. Paul Ryan wanted it. He had a bill all written up. They held all three branches of government, and nothing happened. Trump will run on that in 2020. He'll say he protected Medicare from Paul Ryan but these Democrats want to destabilize it by throwing ten times as many people at it. And people will fall for it. And in this case, it won't be entirely untrue.


>Hillary was the safe choice- the continuity.
>
>
>And even if you really believe that Trump was the
>moderate in the race- there’s no way in hell he’d
>be the moderate in 20.

When I first read that from you, I rolled my eyes at your naive optimism in the American voter. However it appears there is at least some data to back it up and it was key to the blue wave in 2018.

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/voters-think-trump-has-moved-to-the-right/

But remember, in 2018, the Dems who won ran on dividing power to check the executive branch, and preserving Obamacare. The platform being lined up for 2020 by every plausible candidate except Biden is to promise things that assume monopolized power again, including taking away most people's health care.


>He’s spent his admin essentially being president
>to his base and his base only.
>
>He doesn’t even pretend to give a fuck about
>anyone else.
>
>
>The Dems would have to go left as fuck to make
>Trump seem moderate.

Warren, Sanders, and Harris have all said they would nationalize one of the largest industries in America; one that, however reviled, is directly connected to people's very survival. There is very little room further "left as fuck" than that (though Warren, the candidate who more than any of the rest of them, honestly knows better, has already promised it in about a dozen ways). You're right, we SHOULD be able to run as the sensible, honest, pragmatic, thoughtful party. But we're not, and it looks like we won't see the light on that until 2024.

  

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Brew
Member since Nov 23rd 2002
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Mon Aug-12-19 09:40 AM

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57. "n/m"
In response to Reply # 50
Mon Aug-12-19 09:41 AM by Brew

          

.

----------------------------------------

"Fuck aliens." © WarriorPoet415

  

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Stadiq
Member since Dec 21st 2005
3339 posts
Mon Aug-12-19 12:44 PM

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64. "Maybe, but to be fair"
In response to Reply # 50


          


A lot of people just hated Hillary no matter what her positions were. Over simplification, but if someone else runs on her exact platform I don't think they necessarily lose in '16.

Not to mention I don't think typical voters are even aware that parties have platforms, much less know the contents.



>>
>>Saying he wouldn’t touch the safety net doesn’t
>>wipe out the other right wing shit he was slangin.
>
>This isn't an issue of your opinion versus mine. There is very
>clear data on this.
>
>https://news.gallup.com/poll/196064/trump-seen-less-conservative-prior-gop-candidates.aspx
>
>It wasn't just his false promises on medicare and SS. He said
>he wanted an infrastructure deal, which has been a Dem
>priority for decades. He said he'd cut taxes for the middle
>class and raise taxes for the wealthy and corporations. He
>said he supported LGBT rights. He said the NRA had too much
>influence, for God's sake.

Right- he had the fake populist stuff down, no question. I think that is more of an issue with Clinton and the Dems though- how did a billionaire Republican out-populist them?

>
>He didn't just say he was gonna kill Obamacare, he said
>Obamacare was "failing," an uncontroversial view at the time
>as it's what the press had reported for years. But he said
>he'd find a way to give people "terrific" health care and he
>specifically said "we're gonna preserve preexisting." He
>didn't even know what the word meant but he knew he had to
>promise it. He benefited a lot from vagueness, and he gave
>people the impression that they'd just revert to the
>pre-Obamacare system with the only change being that everyone
>would get coverage.
>
>Clever people like you and I were able to see through those
>patently false promises. But the overall voting public, on
>average, saw a non-politician, running against his party's
>longstanding priorities, "telling it like it is." They also
>saw a billionaire who couldn't have become a billionaire
>without being a genius negotiator, who has enough money that
>he "can't be bought."
>
>Voters are fucking idiots. Being the reality-based party, we
>will always be forced to contend with this unfortunate
>reality.

Well to your point I am definitely giving voters too much credit I guess- in this case anyway.

The only thing I will say, though, is Obama was very popular at the end of his presidency. So I struggle with this idea that the current/departing president was incredibly popular, his former SOS running for Pres, and the Billionaire who spent the previous 8 years or whatever claiming said popular president wasn't born in the US, the guy calling Mexicans rapists, etc- was the more moderate option.

>
>
>
>>The Dems whole strategy was that Hill would
>>be the more reasonable candidate and pick up
>>suburban GOP votes.
>
>There was a "two lane" dynamic where the public was seeing
>Hillary as the candidate who spoke in a more reasonable way
>while also seeing Trump as the candidate who would be less
>partisan. And a lot of voters decided they didn't care how
>Trump talks.
>
>But the problem for the campaign was: there just wasn't a way
>for them to break this dynamic where Trump was seen as less
>partisan. Trump could speak against base priorities without
>offending his base. Hillary could not. 'Conservatives' were
>hungry after being out of power for eight years, and
>progressives were complacent and thought the world had
>actually changed when it most certainly had not.

I definitely agree that our side was complacent. I remember election night '12, some talking head talking about the GOP may never win the presidency again unless they become more inclusive. I even believed it at the time.

>
>The campaign blared every day that they had the most
>progressive platform in history. The small number of voters
>who considered themselves progressive loved it. Even the
>Bernie voters, who I'll admit largely did fall in line thanks
>to the party jerking them off. The much larger group of voters
>who didn't consider themselves progressive got worried.

But how many voters really know whats in the party platform, though?

And again I don't want to rehash '16 too much, but the Clinton campaign didn't do a great job communicating/selling their message in my opinion- so even if she did take on a very partisan platform, I question how much people even knew that.

I just don't think many voters checked her website and said "nope, too progressive...Trump seems more reasonable"

>
>This is classic political strategy -- you run to the center in
>the general election. Trump was allowed to run to the center
>and Hillary was not. That wasn't a Hillary thing, or a Trump
>thing, or a Bernie thing. It's just the dynamics of one party
>holding the presidency for eight years.
>
>Faced with this major disadvantage, the Clinton campaign did
>what they could, they ran as the campaign with less partisan
>rhetoric when they couldn't escape the fact that they had a
>significantly more partisan platform. And of course it didn't
>work, but it was the best they could have done.
>
>
>>From immigration, to torching Obamacare, to Iran,
>>Etc- He was right wing with a populist bent.
>>
>>That said, did anyone even believe him on not
>>touching the safety net?
>
>Yup. Voters are stupid.
>
>But by the way, he didn't touch the safety net. Paul Ryan
>wanted it. He had a bill all written up. They held all three
>branches of government, and nothing happened. Trump will run
>on that in 2020. He'll say he protected Medicare from Paul
>Ryan but these Democrats want to destabilize it by throwing
>ten times as many people at it. And people will fall for it.
>And in this case, it won't be entirely untrue.

Well, in this case I consider Obamacare part of the safety net. So, he *shouldn't* be able to run on not trying to touch it.

>
>
>>Hillary was the safe choice- the continuity.
>>
>>
>>And even if you really believe that Trump was the
>>moderate in the race- there’s no way in hell he’d
>>be the moderate in 20.
>
>When I first read that from you, I rolled my eyes at your
>naive optimism in the American voter. However it appears there
>is at least some data to back it up and it was key to the blue
>wave in 2018.
>
>https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/voters-think-trump-has-moved-to-the-right/
>
>But remember, in 2018, the Dems who won ran on dividing power
>to check the executive branch, and preserving Obamacare. The
>platform being lined up for 2020 by every plausible candidate
>except Biden is to promise things that assume monopolized
>power again, including taking away most people's health care.

Yeah, and this is where I agree with you for the most part.

I hope its not too late for the candidates/party to tighten their message.

I go back and forth. A public option is probably the more acceptable answer at this point. But its essentially universal access rather than coverage.

That said, M4A is going to scare voters- especially because I don't think I trust Dems to sell/explain it.

That isn't just my typical cynicism with the party, its complicated to explain.

Especially when voters are hearing that they'll lose their insurance, private insurance may be illegal depending on the plan, etc.

How do you explain it all to voters? How do you explain do voters who actually like their insurance that they are still at the mercy of their employer.


Hell, my insurance isn't too bad honestly. But its expensive as fuck and goes up every year. And because I have a pre-existing, I pause when considering other career options.

Its a trap in a sense. How are Dems going to help voters who like their insurance see that?

I'm rambling at this point, but bottom line is that I see your reasoning.

>
>
>
>>He’s spent his admin essentially being president
>>to his base and his base only.
>>
>>He doesn’t even pretend to give a fuck about
>>anyone else.
>>
>>
>>The Dems would have to go left as fuck to make
>>Trump seem moderate.
>
>Warren, Sanders, and Harris have all said they would
>nationalize one of the largest industries in America; one
>that, however reviled, is directly connected to people's very
>survival. There is very little room further "left as fuck"
>than that (though Warren, the candidate who more than any of
>the rest of them, honestly knows better, has already promised
>it in about a dozen ways). You're right, we SHOULD be able to
>run as the sensible, honest, pragmatic, thoughtful party. But
>we're not, and it looks like we won't see the light on that
>until 2024.

I need to do more research on each candidate's individual healthcare plans. I wonder if there is something between M4A and a public option.

I go back and forth man. I get the reasoning of we need to beat Trump so lets play it safe. I get it. And I think I would be more on board if it wasn't Biden, honestly. My issue with Biden isn't his plans/platform/whatever nearly as much as its just Biden himself. I don't trust him to not fuck it up.


I am very anxious to see Warren and Biden debate for a lot of reasons. But I really want to see her present her healthcare plan and why it would be better. I want to see her try to convince Biden voters.

  

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Lurkmode
Member since May 07th 2011
3121 posts
Mon Aug-12-19 10:55 AM

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58. "Correct Trump is not a moderate but you are discussing this with"
In response to Reply # 43


  

          

someone using the Trump pivot argument so he will not admit it.

---------------------------
Signature

  

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stravinskian
Member since Feb 24th 2003
11723 posts
Mon Aug-12-19 11:34 AM

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59. "For the record I never said he was a moderate."
In response to Reply # 58


          


(Or, for that matter, that being a moderate is a good thing, apart from making someone more likely to win a US Presidential election.)

I said he presented himself as a moderate and was seen that way by the voters. That is not an opinion, it's a measured fact.

And the fact that being seen as the less partisan candidate gives one an electoral advantage is basic textbook political science.


I have no idea what this "Trump pivot argument" is that you think I'm making. Trump didn't even have to pivot in 2016, he staked out these positions in the primary.

If you think I'm talking about Trump's strategy in 2020, then I don't think you're paying attention.

  

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Lurkmode
Member since May 07th 2011
3121 posts
Mon Aug-12-19 01:12 PM

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65. "Ok let me correct my post. Trump is seen as moderate by unicorns"
In response to Reply # 59


  

          


>
>I said he presented himself as a moderate and was seen that
>way by the voters. That is not an opinion, it's a measured
>fact.
>

He presented himself as all things, to all people, all the time. It's a measured poll like the Bradley effect and the Wilder effect.

>And the fact that being seen as the less partisan candidate
>gives one an electoral advantage is basic textbook political
>science.
>

Yeah all about the pivot to the middle after the primary, the media and pundits push it hard but someone looking for a moderate would not vote for Trump.

>I have no idea what this "Trump pivot argument" is that you
>think I'm making. Trump didn't even have to pivot in 2016, he
>staked out these positions in the primary.
>


I'm talking about an NBC reporter who said Trump's teleprompter reading after the mass shooting was a pivot and one of Trumps speech that he gave in the past, was called a pivot. You the media and pundits are doing the same thing by saying people voted for him because they saw him as less partisan or moderate.

>If you think I'm talking about Trump's strategy in 2020, then
>I don't think you're paying attention.
>

You are not paying attention if you think voters who want a moderate voted for Trump based on that, because they couldn't see his bs for what it is. They just tell that lie.

Nobody is voting for Trump because he tells it like it is, he is less partisan, he is an outsider all of that is a lie. Here are the facts.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2016-election/full-list-donald-trump-s-rapidly-changing-policy-positions-n547801

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stravinskian
Member since Feb 24th 2003
11723 posts
Mon Aug-12-19 06:38 PM

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74. "So you're ignoring data that goes against your preconceptions."
In response to Reply # 65


          

>
>>
>>I said he presented himself as a moderate and was seen that
>>way by the voters. That is not an opinion, it's a measured
>>fact.
>>
>
>He presented himself as all things, to all people, all the
>time. It's a measured poll like the Bradley effect and the
>Wilder effect.


So I take it you're just denying that it's possible to measure voter sentiment. If that's the case then there isn't much more to be said.

And for the record, pollsters know about the Bradley effect, and it's perfectly straightforward to adjust for it. That adjustment, these days, is usually to not make an adjustment, because recent data comparing polling to electoral returns has been statistically consistent with there being no "Bradley effect" for Trump. That is, the data shows that on average people who supported Trump were perfectly willing to admit it to pollsters.


>>And the fact that being seen as the less partisan candidate
>>gives one an electoral advantage is basic textbook political
>>science.
>>
>
>Yeah all about the pivot to the middle after the primary, the
>media and pundits push it hard but someone looking for a
>moderate would not vote for Trump.

Well, they did, in 2016.


>>I have no idea what this "Trump pivot argument" is that you
>>think I'm making. Trump didn't even have to pivot in 2016,
>he
>>staked out these positions in the primary.
>>
>
>
>I'm talking about an NBC reporter who said Trump's
>teleprompter reading after the mass shooting was a pivot and

Oh, so some dude on TV made some trite and speculative comment that I never made, and you're projecting it onto me because I said some completely different thing that you didn't like. Okay then.


>one of Trumps speech that he gave in the past, was called a
>pivot. You the media and pundits are doing the same thing by
>saying people voted for him because they saw him as less
>partisan or moderate.

So by telling the truth about one aspect of how he won in 2016 I'm also making unrelated comments on how he's supposedly running in 2020?

I will say this: he will most definitely try to claim that he's the candidate less beholden to his party's base in 2020 (the definition of "moderate" that I've been using here). And if people believe him, he will gain some amount of advantage for it.

You seem to be getting hung up on the word "moderate," which as I've noted in other posts here, can mean a few different things. The people who voted for him did NOT do so because they thought he wasn't an asshole, a liar, a racist, a rapist, and so many other things that he so plainly was in 2016. A lot of his voters admitted all that and liked it --- those are the voters we'll never pull away --- but a lot of his voters admitted all that and simply didn't care. The question of whether he is beholden to his party's base is separate from the question of whether he is personally an asshole, liar, racist, rapist. But the former question is the one that more voters decided they cared about.



>>If you think I'm talking about Trump's strategy in 2020,
>then
>>I don't think you're paying attention.
>>
>
>You are not paying attention if you think voters who want a
>moderate voted for Trump based on that, because they couldn't
>see his bs for what it is. They just tell that lie.
>
>Nobody is voting for Trump because he tells it like it is, he
>is less partisan, he is an outsider all of that is a lie. Here
>are the facts.
>
>https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2016-election/full-list-donald-trump-s-rapidly-changing-policy-positions-n547801


LOL, so you think voters are paying attention to every shift of policy position? You have a surprisingly high opinion of the American voter's information capacity.

Again, the issue is whether voters thought he had a dogmatic attachment to his party's unpopular positions. If anything, his all-over-the-place statements actually HELPED the narrative that he had flexible views.

  

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Lurkmode
Member since May 07th 2011
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Tue Aug-13-19 02:26 AM

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75. "No I'm challenging the argument because it is weak."
In response to Reply # 74


  

          


>>
>>He presented himself as all things, to all people, all the
>>time. It's a measured poll like the Bradley effect and the
>>Wilder effect.
>
>
>So I take it you're just denying that it's possible to measure
>voter sentiment. If that's the case then there isn't much more
>to be said.
>

No anything is possible, so I am not denying anything but I will question it.

>And for the record, pollsters know about the Bradley effect,
>and it's perfectly straightforward to adjust for it. That
>adjustment, these days, is usually to not make an adjustment,
>because recent data comparing polling to electoral returns has
>been statistically consistent with there being no "Bradley
>effect" for Trump. That is, the data shows that on average
>people who supported Trump were perfectly willing to admit it
>to pollsters.
>

Washington Post had an article showing data where Democrats were not in hurry to tell pollsters they approve of Trump. So everyone is not willing to admit it.


>>
>>Yeah all about the pivot to the middle after the primary,
>the
>>media and pundits push it hard but someone looking for a
>>moderate would not vote for Trump.
>
>Well, they did, in 2016.
>

No they didn't, they voted for Trump.


>>
>>I'm talking about an NBC reporter who said Trump's
>>teleprompter reading after the mass shooting was a pivot and
>
>Oh, so some dude on TV made some trite and speculative comment
>that I never made, and you're projecting it onto me because I
>said some completely different thing that you didn't like.
>Okay then.
>


No it was some female on CBS, I didn't mean NBC. Anyway she did the same thing with Trump that you are doing, grade Trump on a curve. Which is what the media is doing. It has nothing to do with what I like or dislike, you are reinforcing a false narrative.

https://twitter.com/NorahODonnell/status/1158384268671881216

https://www.mediamatters.org/donald-trump/problem-medias-trump-pivoting-narrative

>>one of Trumps speech that he gave in the past, was called a
>>pivot. You the media and pundits are doing the same thing
>by
>>saying people voted for him because they saw him as less
>>partisan or moderate.
>
>So by telling the truth about one aspect of how he won in 2016
>I'm also making unrelated comments on how he's supposedly
>running in 2020?

One aspect is not enough to say voters see him as moderate or less partisan.

>I will say this: he will most definitely try to claim that
>he's the candidate less beholden to his party's base in 2020
>(the definition of "moderate" that I've been using here). And
>if people believe him, he will gain some amount of advantage
>for it.
>

Yeah he will lie again and people will lie when asked why did they vote for him.


>You seem to be getting hung up on the word "moderate," which
>as I've noted in other posts here, can mean a few different
>things. The people who voted for him did NOT do so because
>they thought he wasn't an asshole, a liar, a racist, a rapist,
>and so many other things that he so plainly was in 2016. A lot
>of his voters admitted all that and liked it --- those are the
>voters we'll never pull away --- but a lot of his voters
>admitted all that and simply didn't care. The question of
>whether he is beholden to his party's base is separate from
>the question of whether he is personally an asshole, liar,
>racist, rapist. But the former question is the one that more
>voters decided they cared about.
>

I'm not hung up on anything I used less partisan too. LOL you can't separate what he is from the positions he takes. His base doesn't care about everything you listed so why would they care if he was moderate, less partisan or wether he is beholden. He can shoot someone on 5th avenue but he better not be beholden to the party base because that's a deal breaker.

>
>>>If you think I'm talking about Trump's strategy in 2020,
>>then
>>>I don't think you're paying attention.
>>>
>>
>>You are not paying attention if you think voters who want a
>>moderate voted for Trump based on that, because they
>couldn't
>>see his bs for what it is. They just tell that lie.
>>
>>Nobody is voting for Trump because he tells it like it is,
>he
>>is less partisan, he is an outsider all of that is a lie.
>Here
>>are the facts.
>>
>>https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2016-election/full-list-donald-trump-s-rapidly-changing-policy-positions-n547801
>
>
>LOL, so you think voters are paying attention to every shift
>of policy position? You have a surprisingly high opinion of
>the American voter's information capacity.
>

I'm not the one who is saying voters picked Trump because he was less partisan, moderate. You are giving voters too much credit. It's not just policy positions everything he said and did was a lie and the voters know it, that's why I say, I don't believe any of those answers they give to pollsters, when they are asked why they voted for Trump.

>Again, the issue is whether voters thought he had a dogmatic
>attachment to his party's unpopular positions. If anything,
>his all-over-the-place statements actually HELPED the
>narrative that he had flexible views.
>

LOL they care about positions that you just said they are not paying attention too when he shifts ? This is exactly what I mean about the pivot/grade on a curve., when you call his lies "all over the place statements" that helped.

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Reeq
Member since Mar 11th 2013
6958 posts
Thu Aug-08-19 04:29 PM

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4. "btw medicare for all is a political loser (ive been saying for a while)."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

https://twitter.com/MonmouthPoll/status/1159494436793016321

by almost a 3:1 margin...dem voters in iowa choose a plan that more resembles betos medicare or america vs medicare for all. national polls look similar. its basically the public option that obama wanted to include in obamacare (people like obama and hillary actually know what they are doing/talking about).

repubs (and joe lieberman) didnt vote down the public option because they thought it would be a bad idea. they voted it down because they knew it would be wildly popular and ultimately usher people into single payer healthcare via choice/market.

this is what dems should be running on (hopefully warren sees the light). if dems run on proposals that are unpopular (even in their own base) like single payer healthcare with no private insurance or private insurance being relegated to a supplemental plan...they will lose. point blank.



------

  

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mista k5
Member since Feb 01st 2006
10256 posts
Thu Aug-08-19 04:59 PM

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5. "i think making private insurance illegal is a loser"
In response to Reply # 4


  

          

even bernies plan has a period of implementation. it would be easy to have a public option be part of the phase in process right?

i think pete does a good job of explaining why he wants medicare for america (is there a diff between pete and beto on this policy wise?)

the problem is i dont know that bernie wants to eliminate private insurance just because their evil i think he sees it as a real road block to having successful medicare for all. if private insurance remains then the cost of medicare will remain higher per user than it needs to. which then will make it unpopular and lead to repeal attempts like obama care has. i dont know if any of this is true but thats my very lightly informed hunch.

  

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mista k5
Member since Feb 01st 2006
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Thu Aug-08-19 05:34 PM

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6. "The Issues: Politico Guide to Candidates"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

https://www.politico.com/2020-election/candidates-views-on-the-issues/

i just found it but looks like you can click on a given issue and see whos for or against it. ill spend some time on it.

  

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Stevie Lee
Member since Aug 17th 2008
1114 posts
Thu Aug-08-19 06:06 PM

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7. "still the same as 2016: Bernie is the only real option"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

(I'll vote for Warren if she's the candidate, though)

I also feel like Bernie is about to surge ahead.

  

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Trinity444
Charter member
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Thu Aug-08-19 06:42 PM

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8. "what’s up with Yang?"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

any good
I’ve been out of touch since the boards went down lol

  

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fontgangsta
Member since Sep 04th 2005
4839 posts
Fri Aug-09-19 08:58 AM

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11. "this piece he wrote on gun control is so fucking on point"
In response to Reply # 8


  

          

which means it will of course never happen
https://www.cnn.com/2019/08/07/opinions/second-amendment-solution-to-gun-violence-yang/index.html

  

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Jon
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Fri Aug-09-19 09:29 AM

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13. "Wrong Yang, but that seems authoritarian as hell"
In response to Reply # 11
Fri Aug-09-19 09:45 AM by Jon

          

Making all gun-owners into unfree soldiers of the current regime would make the ruling class even more powerful. Imagine if the Black Panthers were forced to be active military members for the duration of their ability to arm themselves? "Ah yeah, we got a problem with these here black panthers, lets send them to some far-off country to die for our freedumbs"

Bad idea

(Granted, back in those days, the government had plenty of other ways to fuck over domestic freedom fighters, so the analogy isnt perfect, but just trying to roughly illustrate the idea. I dont like it. Neither would the founding fathers who hated the entire idea of a permanent standing army, and would probably regard such a thing to be more like the British Army than a "regulated militia" -- not that the slave-owning founding fathers opinions should ever be considered gospel, but if we're going to appeal to their intentions with the Constitution, i dont think this would fit)

  

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mista k5
Member since Feb 01st 2006
10256 posts
Fri Aug-09-19 09:41 AM

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16. "i think she was asking about Andrew Yang, not Jeff"
In response to Reply # 11


  

          

  

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Jon
Charter member
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Fri Aug-09-19 09:44 AM

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17. "Oh shit haha, my quick-skimming ass fell for it too smh"
In response to Reply # 16


          

  

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mista k5
Member since Feb 01st 2006
10256 posts
Fri Aug-09-19 10:01 AM

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18. "when i started reading it i thought what a coincedence"
In response to Reply # 17


  

          

is jeff related??? then saw no mention of andrew lol

  

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Jon
Charter member
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Fri Aug-09-19 10:19 AM

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19. "We got hosed lol"
In response to Reply # 18


          

  

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Jon
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Fri Aug-09-19 10:21 AM

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20. "My fav thing bout Yang: enthusiasm 4 problem-solving over politics"
In response to Reply # 8


          

  

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Lurkmode
Member since May 07th 2011
3121 posts
Fri Aug-09-19 12:12 PM

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25. "All you need to know about Yang"
In response to Reply # 8


  

          

right here

https://board.okayplayer.com/okp.php?az=show_topic&forum=4&topic_id=13341735&mesg_id=13341735&page=2#13341814

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My_SP1200_Broken_Again
Charter member
55587 posts
Tue Aug-13-19 08:54 AM

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78. "he needs a cabinet seat for sure.. dude is on point."
In response to Reply # 8


  

          

https://soundcloud.com/djchiefone/1992-mixtape
https://soundcloud.com/djchiefone/1993-mixtape
https://soundcloud.com/djchiefone/1996-mixtape-part-1
https://soundcloud.com/djchiefone/1996-mixtape-part-2
https://soundcloud.com/djchiefone/1996-mixtape-part-3

  

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stravinskian
Member since Feb 24th 2003
11723 posts
Tue Aug-13-19 09:32 AM

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80. "He's really unconvincing when he cries."
In response to Reply # 8


          


Apart from that, run of the mill vanity candidate.

He probably thinks he's raising awareness for his pet issue (UBI, which really is a profoundly important idea). But he's too vain to realize that he's actually setting it back by turning it into a punchline and the axis of a crackpot presidential run.

  

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navajo joe
Member since Apr 13th 2005
5365 posts
Wed Aug-14-19 10:52 AM

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105. "I thought I was the only one "
In response to Reply # 80


  

          

he cries like the husband who killed his wife in an episode of Law & Order

"Things aren't looking too good for black people right now PR-wise"
Tracy Morgan

"The way that you control a motherfucker that ain't don't nothing is you give them something. Then you hold it over their heads."
Patrice O'Neal

  

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RobOne4
Member since Jun 06th 2003
56468 posts
Thu Aug-08-19 11:36 PM

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10. "I wanted Warren to run last time "
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

im still riding with her

http://warehousestories.wordpress.com
^^^WORK BLOG
last updated 9-17-08

November 8th, 2005 The greatest night in the history of GD!

  

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Jon
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Fri Aug-09-19 09:22 AM

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12. "Tulsi first...Yang and Bernie tied close behind her...Warren acceptable"
In response to Reply # 0


          

  

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Hitokiri
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20382 posts
Fri Aug-09-19 09:33 AM

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14. "As of right now, I want a Warren/Castro ticket."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

--
"You can't beat white people. You can only knock them out."

"There is only one god and his name is death. And there is only one thing we say to death: not today."

  

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Jon
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Fri Aug-09-19 09:41 AM

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15. "I like the that Castro is an urban dev guy. Id send him my ideas lol"
In response to Reply # 14
Fri Aug-09-19 09:43 AM by Jon

          

We have so much work to do to rehabilitate the urban planning and built environment of like 95% of the country

  

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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
62026 posts
Fri Aug-09-19 11:31 AM

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21. "Warren, then maybe Kamala"
In response to Reply # 0


          

shut up already, damn

  

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Mynoriti
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34135 posts
Fri Aug-09-19 11:39 AM

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22. "Warren but I'm not convinced she can win"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

I'm not team Tulsi or anything but I feel like she's the only candidate Trump would be scared of

--------
http://ambitiondeficitdisorder.tumblr.com/

  

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Brew
Member since Nov 23rd 2002
17677 posts
Fri Aug-09-19 11:56 AM

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24. "I read a tweet recently that was like, stop worrying about "electability..."
In response to Reply # 22


          

That's a sure fire way to ensure we lose. Judging by "electability" Biden is the frontrunner and we're seeing that man's brain rot right before our very eyes so he's no fucking shoe in.

----------------------------------------

"Fuck aliens." © WarriorPoet415

  

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Stadiq
Member since Dec 21st 2005
3339 posts
Fri Aug-09-19 12:14 PM

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26. "yeah Biden looks even older than I thought"
In response to Reply # 24


          


Shit is sad and I’m not even a fan.

  

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Mynoriti
Charter member
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Fri Aug-09-19 12:29 PM

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30. "i mean on one hand i agree"
In response to Reply # 24


  

          

and on the other hand its twitter, and letting twitter decide the candidate is also a sure fire way to lose.

--------
http://ambitiondeficitdisorder.tumblr.com/

  

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Brew
Member since Nov 23rd 2002
17677 posts
Fri Aug-09-19 12:31 PM

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31. "That tweet made no declaration about who should win lol"
In response to Reply # 30


          

It was just a general statement about the mentality.

----------------------------------------

"Fuck aliens." © WarriorPoet415

  

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Mynoriti
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Fri Aug-09-19 12:34 PM

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32. "oh i know"
In response to Reply # 31


  

          

just a general statement about twitter lol

--------
http://ambitiondeficitdisorder.tumblr.com/

  

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Brew
Member since Nov 23rd 2002
17677 posts
Fri Aug-09-19 01:02 PM

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36. "Hahah word and in that case - co-sign."
In response to Reply # 32


          

----------------------------------------

"Fuck aliens." © WarriorPoet415

  

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navajo joe
Member since Apr 13th 2005
5365 posts
Fri Aug-09-19 12:26 PM

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28. "RE: Warren but I'm not convinced she can win"
In response to Reply # 22


  

          

>I'm not team Tulsi or anything but I feel like she's the only
>candidate Trump would be scared of
>
>

Why because they are on the same side?

"Things aren't looking too good for black people right now PR-wise"
Tracy Morgan

"The way that you control a motherfucker that ain't don't nothing is you give them something. Then you hold it over their heads."
Patrice O'Neal

  

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Brew
Member since Nov 23rd 2002
17677 posts
Fri Aug-09-19 12:28 PM

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29. "LOL - exactly."
In response to Reply # 28


          

>>I'm not team Tulsi or anything but I feel like she's the
>only
>>candidate Trump would be scared of
>>
>>
>
>Why because they are on the same side?

----------------------------------------

"Fuck aliens." © WarriorPoet415

  

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Reeq
Member since Mar 11th 2013
6958 posts
Fri Aug-09-19 02:45 PM

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39. "lol she got the russian government playing defense for her."
In response to Reply # 28


  

          

https://twitter.com/RVAwonk/status/1158396082126315520

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mista k5
Member since Feb 01st 2006
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27. "Slate’s guide to the presidential candidates"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2019/08/2020-beto-orourke-el-paso-warren-biden-booker-trump.html

this is a funny read

Rank 1
LAST WEEK
UNRANKED
Beto O’Rourke
This is more like it.
Until this week, Beto O’Rourke’s presidential campaign had verged on being what we might call “historically unmemorable.” Since his optimistic and overhyped launch on the cover of Vanity Fair earlier this year, all indicators for O’Rourke had free-fallen: in fundraising, in national polling, in early state polling, in media coverage. He served as a go-to whipping boy during the two debates in which he participated. It wasn’t until this week that the candidate we saw energize Democrats nationwide in his Senate race last year showed a glimpse of his former imposing self. And he did it with one line: “Members of the press, what the fuck?” O’Rourke was enraged following last weekend’s shooting in his hometown of El Paso, Texas, and a reporter’s question about what the president could do differently to help pushed him over the edge. It’s been impressive to watch O’Rourke defend his city and target the president with an authentic directness about Trump’s incitement of white nationalist acts of violence. The Surge has no idea, and doesn’t particularly care, about what this week will mean for O’Rourke’s standing in the presidential race. In the absence of incumbent national leadership, though, it was comforting to see O’Rourke fill the void.

Rank 2
LAST WEEK
UNRANKED
Elizabeth Warren
Your now-confirmed debate winner.
Yeah yeah yeah, we chuckleheads in the media all write our columns immediately after presidential debates about who “won” and “lost” them, but members of the press, what the fuck? What do we know? What’s our deal? After making our grand pronouncements, we all hold our breath for a few days and wait for polling to come back to see if the public’s interpretation of events matches ours. And after last week’s two CNN debates, it appears that pundits and Democratic primary voters were on the same page: Massachusetts Sen. Elizabeth Warren dominated. In a HuffPost/YouGov poll of Democratic and Democratic-leaning voters, 50 percent said their opinion of Warren improved, while only 6 percent said it worsened. That net change of 44 percentage points was the strongest of the 20 candidates who'd debated over the course of two nights, with South Bend, Indiana, Mayor Pete Buttigieg coming in a distant second with a net change of 24 points. Warren’s post-debate national polling average also received a modest bump, and she’s now on the precipice of passing Sen. Bernie Sanders for second place in national polling averages. Warren doesn’t spike, and she doesn’t collapse: She just grows a point or two each month. It’s a healthy trajectory to ride.

Rank 3
LAST WEEK
#1
John Delaney
Your now-confirmed debate loser.
Remember that first debate last week, when CNN moderators devoted an inordinate amount of attention to former Maryland Rep. John Delaney to serve as the substitute moderate foil to Sanders and Warren in Joe Biden’s absence? There was a strain of thought afterward that this might have helped Delaney: He got a lot of face time to introduce himself and to argue for a moderate approach to policymaking that still appeals to a large segment of the Democratic electorate. It was a reasonable take! But also wrong. That same HuffPost/YouGov survey mentioned above showed Delaney to be the debates’ biggest loser. Only 2 percent of voters’ opinions of Delaney improved, while 32 percent of voters’ opinions worsened. This is why it’s such a risk for candidates, even lower-polling ones, to go negative—especially in service of an incremental policy vision—against beloved, higher-polling candidates in early debates: It can make voters really dislike you! Delaney was polling at nothing before the debates and now will continue to poll at nothing, but with a fresh new net–30 percent of the Democratic primary electorate viewing him as a jerk. Oops.

Rank 4
LAST WEEK
#3
Joe Biden
Another shaky week survived. Somehow.
The last debates officially changed the Surge’s (EXPERT, MUST-CREDIT) opinion of the former vice president’s central vulnerability. It’s not that he could prove too moderate or out of touch with the trajectory of the Democratic electorate; there’s plenty of space within the party for his center-leftism, and there’s no major center-left rival to contend with him. The central vulnerability, instead, is his age, which has revealed itself to be a Factor in his ability to campaign and debate in a yearslong race (and in his potential administration—remember, the winner of this contest literally has to be PRESIDENT OF AMERICA for four years). He lost his train of thought throughout the debate, and in the days after, during a fundraiser, he referred to the shootings in El Paso and Dayton as “the tragic events in Houston today and also in Michigan the day before.” The Surge does not mock such septuagenarian fogginess; it simply notes that these moments seem to be happening on the regular, or at least during the rare days when Biden is out campaigning. Biden’s polling, however, has held relatively steady since the debates. Guess we’re doing this, huh?

Rank 5
LAST WEEK
#6
Cory Booker
What more do you jokers want?
Can a few of you out there tell a dang pollster that you would vote for Cory Booker? Why not? The candidate is generally appealing to a broad swath of the party, is young and energetic despite being quite experienced, and has performed well in the two debates. In the second night of the CNN debates, he was determined to have performed the strongest, by math. So what, pray tell, is this baloney? It’s 2 percent, 2 percent, 3 percent, 2 percent, all down the board, in terms of Booker’s national polling. Booker is falling in South Carolina, which his team expects to be his best early primary state. Members of the public, what the fuck? It’s not that the Surge is in the tank for Booker; we’ve been committed Lizard People voters since the Lehman Brothers collapse. But Booker deserves to get to, what, 5 in national polling? Like, at least once? Can you just get him to 5 PERCENT? He tries so hard and no one cares . Do the same for Julián Castro.

Rank 6
LAST WEEK
#3
Kamala Harris
The dreaded Rubio analogy has been introduced.
Following her breakout performance in the first debates in late June, everyone—including us so-called (by no one) geniuses at the Surge—declared Harris an instant top-tier candidate, and front-runner. Following her second, lackluster debate performance last week, though, she’s back to where she was before the first one: polling in the high single digits. She’s not gaining any support organically, just coasting off, or suffering from, debate performances and ultimately settling into a less-than-ideal equilibrium we call “fourth place.” A couple of months ago, before either debate, the Surge was talking with a Democratic consultant who described her candidacy as such: Voters of all stripes are supposed to flock to her; they just can’t find a reason to. It instantly reminded me of another much-touted, talented presidential prospect acceptable to various strands of the party but the first choice of very few of them. I’m not the only one to see warning signs of a 2016 Marco Rubio in 2020 Kamala Harris.

Rank 7
LAST WEEK
#7
Donald Trump
Sometimes a bad week is a bad week.
It’s been an unusual one for our president: For some reason, we haven’t seen the typical defenses of the president’s 11-dimensional tactical “brilliance” during a week in which he’s acted like a baby following a white supremacist’s mass shooting. Few commended his negotiating savvy as he escalated the trade war against China, China escalated back, and the stock market plunged. There seemed to be an almost eerie consensus that the president had had a bad week because he was a bad person who was bad at his job. Consider the Surge spooked.

  

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rawsouthpaw
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35. "bernie all day every day"
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seasoned vet
Member since Jul 29th 2008
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41. "poor Bernie, clearly the best choice but cant catch a break"
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Errol Walton Barrow
Member since Jul 02nd 2002
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42. "I like that Joe Rogan podcast the other day"
In response to Reply # 35


  

          

Joe stepped out the way and allowed him to talk without going on his prepared rants and he came off like a man with a plan. I think he picked up some converts there.

I like Warren too, would not mix d her either

-------
http://adevotedappraisal.tumblr.com - Essays, reviews, short stories and free writes on music, film and life around us.

  

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mista k5
Member since Feb 01st 2006
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Mon Aug-12-19 09:23 AM

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56. "if you ever listen to bernie explain why he wants to do things"
In response to Reply # 42


  

          

it makes so much sense. i kind of start tuning him out because i already got it. i would gladly vote for bernie but i think im seeing warren is going to be a more acceptable to choice to people that would be never bernie types.

  

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Stadiq
Member since Dec 21st 2005
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45. "Ideas for Warrens VP?"
In response to Reply # 0


          


Who helps her lock in voters she might struggle
with?

  

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Reeq
Member since Mar 11th 2013
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46. "ideally a black moderate."
In response to Reply # 45


  

          

i would normally say anyone with blue collar rust belt type dna...but running 2 white people on the ticket after what we saw with black turnout in 2016 would be an absolute sin.

a strong black candidate juicing up black turnout would pretty much guarantee a win in every rust belt state but ohio anyway (like 2018).

dems have the suburbs rapidly coming their way but really left wing policies from warren like dramatically raising taxes on *all* guns *and* ammunition is not going to do her/them any favors.
https://twitter.com/Robillard/status/1160177903616897025

basically gun violence would decrease because people couldnt afford it lol. seriously. thats not a punchline.

i understand the impulse but she needs to dial back some of these proposals to fit the places dems saw pickups in 2016 and 2018. dems could lock them in for a generation but warren is running on stuff that would make them turn away. a lot of her platform is liberal/academia think tank stuff that relies on stats and projections irrespective of real world human perception/behavior.

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Stadiq
Member since Dec 21st 2005
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48. "I agree but any ideas on who specifically? "
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stravinskian
Member since Feb 24th 2003
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Sat Aug-10-19 06:42 PM

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52. "Castro Castro Castro!"
In response to Reply # 45
Sat Aug-10-19 06:51 PM by stravinskian

          

I'm at the weird spot right now where I don't see any good options for the top of the ticket. But Castro is the obvious runningmate for just about anyone, and particularly Warren.

(I'd talk about him at the top of the ticket if not for those stubborn polls. But maybe there's time.)

Reeq is absolutely right that the ticket can't be two white people, and that we need black turnout. But there's also an opportunity for historically high hispanic turnout, which has a lot of room to grow and is consistently getting more and more important, even in red states that might move blue in the coming decades.

Speaking of which, Texas has been a dream state for Dems for my whole adult life. And while it's naive to think that putting Castro on the ticket would finally win the state for us, demographics and polls make it clear that we will win it eventually, and it's not outside the realm of possibility this time. When we do, it'll completely change the Electoral College situation.

Also, as I think you noted elsewhere, Castro brings at least some connection to the Obama administration (*and* he can get through a sentence without finding a way to say the opposite of what he meant to say). And generally as a former Cabinet member, he can speak as a representative for the pragmatic work of government. What I'm dancing around is: he's enough of an insider that he might be able to temper fears of Warren's radical side.

  

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Stadiq
Member since Dec 21st 2005
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61. "I really like Castro actually"
In response to Reply # 52


          


I wish he was polling higher. He'd be my VP pick for Warren at this point, just not sure how he moves the black/moderate/etc vote.

Dude grew on me, though.

>I'm at the weird spot right now where I don't see any good
>options for the top of the ticket. But Castro is the obvious
>runningmate for just about anyone, and particularly Warren.
>
>(I'd talk about him at the top of the ticket if not for those
>stubborn polls. But maybe there's time.)

I would too, actually. Not my first choice, but I like him a lot.

>
>Reeq is absolutely right that the ticket can't be two white
>people, and that we need black turnout. But there's also an
>opportunity for historically high hispanic turnout, which has
>a lot of room to grow and is consistently getting more and
>more important, even in red states that might move blue in the
>coming decades.

Definitely.

>
>Speaking of which, Texas has been a dream state for Dems for
>my whole adult life. And while it's naive to think that
>putting Castro on the ticket would finally win the state for
>us, demographics and polls make it clear that we will win it
>eventually, and it's not outside the realm of possibility this
>time. When we do, it'll completely change the Electoral
>College situation.
>
>Also, as I think you noted elsewhere, Castro brings at least
>some connection to the Obama administration (*and* he can get
>through a sentence without finding a way to say the opposite
>of what he meant to say).

Yep. I know you hate the word "establishment"...so pick another word if you like. But, I wish Biden wasn't running so the 'establishment'/whatever would throw more weight (endorsements, etc) behind a guy like Castro.

And generally as a former Cabinet
>member, he can speak as a representative for the pragmatic
>work of government. What I'm dancing around is: he's enough of
>an insider that he might be able to temper fears of Warren's
>radical side.

I agree, though he is being painted as radical on immigration. Though his stance is often mis-stated of course.

  

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kfine
Member since Jan 11th 2009
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Mon Aug-12-19 12:27 PM

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62. "Interesting. I love Castro but don't see a particularly strong coalition"
In response to Reply # 52
Mon Aug-12-19 12:29 PM by kfine

          

rallying behind that ticket.

To compete against Cult 45, I think it's all about who can come together and build the most "harmonious" coalition that can appeal to the "largest" swath of Americans.

Castro's numbers have NOT been strong. Even with his name recognition. So one has to ask what large following he would bring with him, which combined with Warren's (or whoever the nominee) following, could galvanize excitement large enough to sway the nation??

And before saying Texas, Beto is the candidate polls have indicated brings the strongest electoral support from Texas not Castro.

And before saying Latin Americans, the pulse of Latin American voters has been all over the place.. there's been reports that they favor Biden, Sanders, Harris, Castro, etc. So just like with black voters, it seems the whole "monolith" paradigm is losing relevance.

Imho, if the dem nominee ends up one of those who are like, the top 5 or so in the polls, then the smartest pick for running mate would appear to be the best aligned OUT OF those other top polling candidates. OR a very popular outsider with good name recognition (eg. Abrams).

But selecting a running mate from candidates who've already failed to inspire a sizable following? Why not just shortlist the best folks from those tiers for Cabinet posts? lol.

  

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mista k5
Member since Feb 01st 2006
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63. "oddly enough (or not) i dont see latinos being excited for a latino"
In response to Reply # 62


  

          

not just because at least. if the person is good then cool but i dont see us voting for one just because theyre latino. like you said though, its not like all latinos vote the same any way.

i havent paid much attention to castro myself. the more i see about him the more i like him but i dont see him becoming super popular to warrant being a VP pick. were plenty far away so we will see. i definitely want him to get into the next round of debates.

  

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kfine
Member since Jan 11th 2009
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66. "Lol not odd at all, and I feel you 100%. Another ex: I'm a black female"
In response to Reply # 63


          


but Warren appeals to me more than Kamala.

I still think representation matters and it plays a (small) part in how I personally size up politicians, but it's mostly in combination with other factors and has varying precedence.

What's nice is such a historically diverse field of candidates vying for the Dem nomination "finally" allows people to focus on issues more than identity, which is refreshing. There's more than one woman, more than one POC, some LGBTQ representation, etc.

Regardless of who advances, it's healthy for the discourse and enables a better read of the electorate as well (i.e. who from the pack do people really gravitate towards in spite of identity, ideology, etc.)

  

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My_SP1200_Broken_Again
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79. "she needs Bernie and vice versa.."
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Reeq
Member since Mar 11th 2013
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47. "btw if warren wins office then a repub gov picks her replacement."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

it would make the senate that much more unlikely for dems to win. i dont really see anyone talking about that.

and supposedly sane/moderate repub govs like baker (ma) and hogan (md) have been really showing their right wing ass lately. you notice neither of them really criticized trump for any of the recent shit. hogan pretty much bothsides'd the elijah cummings/baltimore fiasco.

its possible dems could win back her seat in a special election but thats still months of zero action (with dem base antipathy and repub attack ads highlighting that fact). plus do you really trust dems to win a special election with the senate on the line and typical out-party gains at play? remember scott brown?

------

  

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isaaaa
Member since May 10th 2007
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51. "Ain't nooooo one tlking about this"
In response to Reply # 47


  

          


Anti-gentrification, cheap alcohol & trying to look pretty in our twilight posting years (c) Big Reg
http://www.Tupreme.com

  

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stravinskian
Member since Feb 24th 2003
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53. "Shit, somehow even I wasn't aware of this. "
In response to Reply # 47


          


Even when I was on the Sherrod train, this issue was enough to give me pause on him. I guess in that case it was less clear that we'd eventually win the seat back. But Taxachusetts isn't as lefty as people think it is, as evidenced by Scott Brown, Mitt Romney, and current governor whatshisname.

  

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kfine
Member since Jan 11th 2009
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60. "Well, she's pretty much already endorsed Joe Kennedy III's run if"
In response to Reply # 47
Mon Aug-12-19 11:41 AM by kfine

          

she wins the nomination. That's a pretty strong candidate to run for successor. He's consistently won re-election in his district since 2013.

If the Dems can't even make an effective play for a blue Senate seat in MA running a Kennedy...

edit: not expressing over-confidence or anything; just pointing out that for MA in particular there appears to be a strong succession plan and Warren's explicitly said "let's get him elected to the Senate!" after he introduced her before one of her speeches, which seemed to imply not only her tacit endorsement of his run but that she would throw some of her muscle down-ticket to help him out.

>its possible dems could win back her seat in a special
>election but thats still months of zero action (with dem base
>antipathy and repub attack ads highlighting that fact). plus
>do you really trust dems to win a special election with the
>senate on the line and typical out-party gains at play?
>remember scott brown?

  

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Reeq
Member since Mar 11th 2013
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67. "warren herself isnt that popular in massachusetts"
In response to Reply # 60


  

          

in a solid blue state she has only 49% approval and 41% disapproval. +8 net favorability in a state that leans strongly in your direction isnt a good sign.
https://morningconsult.com/senator-rankings-q2-19-2/

to contrast...the *republican* governor who just won re-election has 73%(!) approval to only 14% disapproval. hes the most popular governor of his state in the nation.
https://morningconsult.com/senator-rankings-q2-19-2/

a solid majority (58%) of people in warrens state didnt want her to run for president.
https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2018/09/20/elizabeth-warren-for-president-new-survey-shows-mass-voters-don-love-that-idea/eRMzdOVBxe2Bc0Jxk1v9nK/story.html

so ma isnt quite the liberal/progressive bastion that a lot of people think it is.

the dynamics are there for a moderate repub senate candidate to succeed...especially in a less predictable special/off-year election.

------

  

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kfine
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69. "Oh absolutely! I wasn't trying to imply that they aren't lol"
In response to Reply # 67
Mon Aug-12-19 01:39 PM by kfine

          

>
>the dynamics are there for a moderate repub senate candidate
>to succeed...especially in a less predictable special/off-year
>election.

Just that if Warren DOES end up being nominated for Pres, the Dems are set up to make about as strong a play as they can possibly make for her seat.

So if THAT doesn't even work, then they are in really bad shape (in MA, but elsewhere too). Which we already know from past senate race losses and the math behind the Senate, but would really be quite obvious if a Kennedy can't even win MA after a decent length tenure in the House.

  

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Reeq
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70. "yeah on paper its a race that dems *should* win"
In response to Reply # 69


  

          

even when they win the prez and the opposite party tends to make gains.

i havent looked up kennedys district and what the partisan lean or his margin of victory has been. but he doesnt seem to be as far to the left as warren and that may actually be an asset to him in a statewide race.

------

  

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kfine
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71. "Right. Ya I also think the dynastic element is an asset too, as wack"
In response to Reply # 70


          


as it feels to give that side of politics credence, lol

But the Kennedys "are" the most high profile political dynasty the Dems have, really... with comparable influence to say what the Bushes have/had with Republicans.

I'm not well-versed on how progressive JKIII is compared to Warren. BUT there are probably a sizeable chunk of voters in MA (especially older demographics) that would support him simply off the strength of who one or more of his family members were. And that could definitely help the Dems, given the constraints they're facing there as you said.

>
>i havent looked up kennedys district and what the partisan
>lean or his margin of victory has been. but he doesnt seem to
>be as far to the left as warren and that may actually be an
>asset to him in a statewide race.
>
>

  

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Bambino Grande
Member since Mar 14th 2019
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Sun Aug-11-19 04:54 AM

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55. "Andrew Yang or Warren"
In response to Reply # 0


          

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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68. "I feel like the practical democratic nominee never wins"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

I go back to Mondale, Dukakis, Al Gore, John Kerry and I think they all shared the fact that none of them really had passionate bases but they were chosen as the candidate that Dems thought looked best on paper and could win over the rest of America.

Hillary (and Al Gore) are a little different because (i) they actually had more popular votes. I think Hillary is also different because people got very into the idea of a woman president. Nevermind it was a woman with a lot of baggage whose husband killed a lot of the feminist arguments for Hillary.

Anyway Obama and Bill Clinton were both the outsiders who got people hyped. People need that.

I may be an optimist but I really do think this is the election that could be transformative and a lot of different candidates can win. That makes me think its time to swing for the fences and not go with the safest bet. And it also seems weird that Crazy Joe is the safe bet.


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

  

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Reeq
Member since Mar 11th 2013
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72. "'democrats fall in love. republicans fall in line.'"
In response to Reply # 68


  

          

as much as i wished we were as tribal and disciplined as republicans...history has shown dem voters rely a lot more on being inspired by individual candidates to turn out...as opposed to repubs who just habitually show up and vote on issues regardless of which vessel(candidate) is carrying them.

------

  

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Mr. ManC
Member since Jan 26th 2009
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Mon Aug-12-19 06:09 PM

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73. "I think Sanders/Warren is a winning ticket, with"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Gabbard, Yang, and Castro sprinkled in the cabinet.

________________________________________________

SUPA NERD LLC.
Knowledge Meets Nature
Musica Negra
#13irteen

  

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Bambino Grande
Member since Mar 14th 2019
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Tue Aug-13-19 04:04 AM

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76. "That sounds awesome tbh"
In response to Reply # 73


          

  

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Reeq
Member since Mar 11th 2013
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Tue Aug-13-19 09:55 AM

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81. "horrible move. that would likely alienate large swaths of the base."
In response to Reply # 73


  

          

running 2 people of the same exact ideological strain from essentially the same geographic region is almost a surefire way to lose a presidential election (which is why nobody does it). it does nothing to expand your voter coalition. its even worse factoring in that its 2 old white candidates over 70 in a rapidly diversifying democratic party.

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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82. "Yeah, that's just a redundant ticket to me. I don't understand why you"
In response to Reply # 81


  

          

need Bernie if you have Warren on the ticket? Same goes vice versa. I am team Warren but if she consistently trails bernie in the polls she should fall back and endorse him to get that agenda across the line (and vice versa).

**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

  

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Reeq
Member since Mar 11th 2013
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Tue Aug-13-19 10:52 AM

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83. "this would be the smart thing to do but egos."
In response to Reply # 82


  

          

>I am team Warren but if she consistently trails bernie
>in the polls she should fall back and endorse him to get that
>agenda across the line (and vice versa).

just doing a brief skim of recent primary history...one of the top 2 candidates almost always plummets and it looks like bernie is going to be the odd man out (he had a pretty tenuous base to start with).

warren has all the momentum and has overtaken bernie behind biden (on average).
https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2020/president/us/2020_democratic_presidential_nomination-6730.html

a few polls out of iowa (where bernie almost upset hillary) have bernie as low as 4th or 5th in that state.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EBkSZ20XsAEtlrK.jpg

if bernie dropped out and endorsed her so that their coalitions could likely unify...thatd make a progressive winning the nomination that much more likely. we know bernie aint dropping shit tho lol. dude could fall to 5th place and he will still be running up to the convention trying to persuade delegates to flip with printouts of his head to head poll numbers against trump lol.

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Stadiq
Member since Dec 21st 2005
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Tue Aug-13-19 11:37 AM

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88. "RE: this would be the smart thing to do but egos."
In response to Reply # 83
Tue Aug-13-19 11:37 AM by Stadiq

          

we know bernie
>aint dropping shit tho lol. dude could fall to 5th place and
>he will still be running up to the convention trying to
>persuade delegates to flip with printouts of his head to head
>poll numbers against trump lol.
>

This worries me a great deal- one of the reasons I didn't want him to run.

If Warren pulls ahead, and it really *is* about the progressive agenda...it will be a real test for him and his followers.


I could definitely see it going the way you laid it out here though.

One of the reasons it will probably end up being fucking Biden. Which, if it is, he better pick Warren as VP to unify the belts.

  

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Reeq
Member since Mar 11th 2013
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Tue Aug-13-19 12:23 PM

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91. "bernie isnt really running a good campaign."
In response to Reply # 88


  

          

just look at the difference in this poll and the one from only a few months ago.

most people dont really pay attention to the nuts and bolts of politics...but he put together a pretty shitty campaign team of rabid loyalists who basically wanna center their entire campaign on grievances with 'the establishment' and everybody stealing 'his' ideas.

that shit dont really work with the democratic base...who is largely pro-institution and not motivated by animus.

right now he and his campaign are complaining about not getting favorable coverage from the washington post...and saying its because bernie criticizes amazon and its/wapos owner jeff bezos (sound familiar?).
https://twitter.com/HuffPostPol/status/1161324055817011200

biden is winning over working class whites and warren is winning over progressives (and women and suburban dems). bernie is just in the middle yelling and blamegaming.

bernie is still running like an agitator from the outside orchestrating a hostile takeover of the party (an approach that has doomed progressive candidates all over the country) and warren is running like an elected democrat just looking to lead and build/improve on the partys policies. which one do you think is more appealing to democratic voters over the long haul?

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My_SP1200_Broken_Again
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77. "Bernie/Warren or Warren/Bernie ticket will be powerful as fuck..."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

https://soundcloud.com/djchiefone/1992-mixtape
https://soundcloud.com/djchiefone/1993-mixtape
https://soundcloud.com/djchiefone/1996-mixtape-part-1
https://soundcloud.com/djchiefone/1996-mixtape-part-2
https://soundcloud.com/djchiefone/1996-mixtape-part-3

  

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Reeq
Member since Mar 11th 2013
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Tue Aug-13-19 11:04 AM

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84. "they would objectively do worse than clinton/kaine."
In response to Reply # 77


  

          

potentially worse with black/hispanic voters, likely worse in the suburbs (the key demo in 2018 midterms gains), and definitely worse among moderates.

they might win most of the rust belt just based off high general turnout and anti-trump sentiment but you can forget about competing in az, tx, fl, ga, nc and a shitload of house districts needed to keep the dem majority.

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My_SP1200_Broken_Again
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89. "lol what wildshit are you basing this on?"
In response to Reply # 84


  

          

  

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Reeq
Member since Mar 11th 2013
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90. "real life lol."
In response to Reply # 89


  

          

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My_SP1200_Broken_Again
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92. "so nothing.. thanks."
In response to Reply # 90


  

          

  

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Reeq
Member since Mar 11th 2013
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Wed Aug-14-19 10:50 AM

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104. "did you miss 2018?"
In response to Reply # 92


  

          

when further left candidates got bloodied in swing state primaries and underperformed in voting blocs most necessary for democrats to win on a national level...while moderates swept governorships in every rust belt state but ohio, completely wiped repubs out of their cali stronghold in orange county, flipped 40 seats in the house, and flipped 2 sun belt senate seats?

bernie/warren poll worse than hillary among the constituencies that drove the 'blue wave' in competitive races all across the country.

theres a reason why warren barely has positive approval in a *blue* state while the moderate republican governor is approved by over 70% of the states voters.

thats what i base my comments on.

now its your turn.

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Vex_id
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Tue Aug-13-19 02:38 PM

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94. "LOL @ "objectively""
In response to Reply # 84


  

          

Forgot how much fun these posts were.

  

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Reeq
Member since Mar 11th 2013
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Wed Aug-14-19 11:39 AM

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112. "big sparta feel free to join in."
In response to Reply # 94


  

          

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kfine
Member since Jan 11th 2009
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Tue Aug-13-19 03:57 PM

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96. "No data to support my musings but: I feel like if Sanders won the nom"
In response to Reply # 77
Tue Aug-13-19 04:03 PM by kfine

          

the only running mate he would literally even SEE as "on his level" is Warren.

But if Warren won the nom? I don't know lol... I don't necessarily see her selecting Bernie. Nor does Bernie come across as one who would enthusiastically agree to be VP. And if he DOES have the ability to tone down and play a support role like VP... I get the impression he would move like a shadow Pres/Dick Cheney of the Left (sorry lol I watched Vice recently), which doesn't strike me as compatible with Warren's leadership style. PLUS there's something to be said for the fact that if Warren is nominated over Sanders, that really should be taken as a decisive rejection of Bernie's style of progressivism by the Democratic electorate. As much as people like to group Sanders and Warren together, Warren has expressed clearly and explicitly in multiple interviews that she is NOT a Democratic Socialist. She LIKES markets, she just wants to regulate the living shit out of them lol and redistribute the wealth.

Tbh I think Warren at the top of the ticket would be most compatible with Buttigieg or Castro... maybe Booker (unless she went for a non-candidate, like Abrams or someone Deval Patrick-esque but not from her state). I'd be most excited to see her run with someone fresh... different demographic, different region, and harmonious policy leanings. But of those three, Buttigieg strikes me as the strongest match because he would bring the largest following that would (harmoniously) combine with Warren's, plus he's established strong momentum and raises money like crazy.

Ironically, if not for their weird increasingly contentious petty rivalry I see Kamala as the best running mate for Biden lol. I don't know if it could happen now, plus she balked at the suggestion during a press gaggle around the time he announced ("Umm, I think HE would make a good running mate for ME..."). But ya. They both appeal to the establishment set, could tag-team defending each other's baggage, and they both engage in a lot of doublespeak and flip-flops to obscure their less-than-progressive positions/track-records. I don't really see them vibing with any of the other top-tier candidates. So if the Dems end up nominating establishment, Biden-Harris would be my guess for the ticket.

And I know Pete is a longshot/dark horse, but if he managed to cause an upset a la Obama I think Warren would also be a good VP match for him. Harmonious coalition, harmonious policy positions, she has crazy momentum and would bring the experience and congressional know-how to the ticket that a lot of naysayers worry he lacks. I also think this would be the strongest ticket in 1-on-1 debate matchups against 45 and Pence. My only concern would be whether a Buttigieg-Warren ticket could sufficiently appeal to minorities. But I feel like Pete at least tries - he's got a black agenda, he's pro-reparations, he's pro-immigrants' rights, and most importantly he's responsive to feedback. He's definitely had his missteps... But a leadership style that adapts, takes accountability, and responds times 10 when blindspots are called out is much more appealling than the ornery, stubborn, leadership style boomers have been running with for decades (see Sanders, Biden, 45, Pelosi, Schumer, etc). Few minority candidates are cracking top tier, unfortunately. Maybe there are other democratic-leaning segments that can be targeted for turnout eg. Millenials, Generation Z, LGBTQ+, etc.

  

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mista k5
Member since Feb 01st 2006
10256 posts
Tue Aug-13-19 04:06 PM

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97. "im more and more suspicious of pete (for no real good reason)"
In response to Reply # 96


  

          

let me preface this by saying, he does have some real issues but my comments here are unreasonable complaints about him.

he checks too many boxes, especially ones that could be seen as contradictory on a superficial level

young
experienced
progressive
reasonable
white
diverse
big on religion
veteran


im sure theres plenty more. then i find out he has connections to el paso and the region as a whole. who created this guy? what else will we find out about him that only makes him look better?

i do agree that pete would be a good VP for either warren or bernie. he wrote a freaking paper on bernie for petes (heh) sake. i do agree that the weakness of such a ticket would be the appeal to minorities.

  

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kfine
Member since Jan 11th 2009
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Tue Aug-13-19 04:10 PM

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98. "Lol!"
In response to Reply # 97


          


I know what you mean

  

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Tw3nty
Member since Jan 02nd 2007
8371 posts
Tue Aug-13-19 11:32 AM

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85. "Harris and the rest of the field minus Tulsi as her cabinet."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

  

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mista k5
Member since Feb 01st 2006
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Tue Aug-13-19 11:34 AM

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86. "Other Votes - check in"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

if you please. curious to see if there is an other candidate that has multiple votes in the poll

how many people are straight up undecided if they had to vote right now?

  

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Walleye
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Tue Aug-13-19 11:36 AM

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87. "Delaney!"
In response to Reply # 0


          

I'm forty now, and it's time to get serious about not wanting good things for people. Whether it's de-commodifying things that are required to live a healthy, stable, happy life or placing even the slightest brakes on our unending empire-building, it's time to put away childish things. That means voting for somebody who has carefully examined polling data and most perfectly articulated the principle that our lives (at least the ones that matter) are basically fine and that anything that's expensive or politically difficult isn't worth the trouble.

______________________________

"Walleye, a lot of things are going to go wrong in your life that technically aren't your fault. Always remember that this doesn't make you any less of an idiot"

--Walleye's Dad

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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93. "I need to see that parody commercial. "
In response to Reply # 87
Tue Aug-13-19 02:25 PM by Buddy_Gilapagos

  

          

I want a kid to come up and interrupt and him and say "I want an affordable education, place to live on a planet that's inhabitable" and him to pat her on the head and say, "that sounds really really tough. Sorry".




**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

  

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Walleye
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Wed Aug-14-19 07:23 AM

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99. "That cold-blooded Bill Dauterive-looking goon would do it"
In response to Reply # 93


          

It's probably what he thinks about before he goes to sleep. Then that frightening grin creeps across his perfectly circular face right as our fiscally-conservative-socially-liberal little guy drifts off into happy slumber until the sun wakes him with more chances to explain that wanting things is how you got Donald Trump, so we all better just pipe down as capitalism slowly murders us.

______________________________

"Walleye, a lot of things are going to go wrong in your life that technically aren't your fault. Always remember that this doesn't make you any less of an idiot"

--Walleye's Dad

  

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PimpTrickGangstaClik
Member since Oct 06th 2005
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Tue Aug-13-19 03:56 PM

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95. "I like Warren at this point. But I need folks to drop out to be sure"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

I need to see if she can hold her own in one on one, or one on two battles. It's easy to coast when you are a known name in a field of 25.

Bernie is still playing the 2016 hits. Needs to flip it and remix it. I don't think he's built for this round. He worked last time because he was a foil to Clinton. He doesn't have anyone like that this time so he's just screaming at the clouds.

_______________________________________
You ain't the only one whose got problems. You ain't the only one who knows pain. Get up off your ass and just solve them. You still got a chance to try to change, try the shit again.
Devin tha Dude

  

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reaction
Member since Aug 09th 2019
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Wed Aug-14-19 09:29 AM

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100. "RE: I like Warren at this point. But I need folks to drop out to be sure"
In response to Reply # 95


          

>Bernie is still playing the 2016 hits. Needs to flip it and
>remix it. I don't think he's built for this round. He worked
>last time because he was a foil to Clinton. He doesn't have
>anyone like that this time so he's just screaming at the
>clouds.

Yeah in 2019 health care is so passe and higher wages, who needs that? I remember 3 years ago when an affordable education was the jam, now so played out.

Sanders represents a working class, underprivileged movement based around a consistent, lifelong dedicated message. This stat is very telling, from a recent Emerson poll Percent of each candidate's supporters making more than $100,000/year:

Buttigieg: 37%
O'Rourke: 30%
Warren: 20%
Biden: 18%
Harris: 18%
Yang: 18%
Sanders: 4%

https://twitter.com/eldon_katz/status/1156232984275628032?s=20

Also this "A big takeaway from this data is that wealthy, white areas tend to favor Mayor Pete. Recently gentrified areas lean Warren. And Bernie leads in both rural, white areas and urban, non-white neighborhoods"

https://twitter.com/freedaaron/status/1157327369608343552?s=20

Plus Bernie has 0 billionaire donors

https://www.forbes.com/sites/giacomotognini/2019/08/05/here-are-the-democratic-presidential-candidates-with-the-most-donations-from-billionaires/#77782e6d4c15

And finally Bernie stands alone in rejecting the corrupting influence of corporate money, even Warren has admitted she will use it in the general https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2019/02/26/warren_will_forgo_big_money_donors_in_primary_but_not_general_election_i_do_not_believe_in_unilateral_disarmament.html

  

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Brew
Member since Nov 23rd 2002
17677 posts
Wed Aug-14-19 10:28 AM

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101. "^^^^ Bernie Sanders."
In response to Reply # 100


          

----------------------------------------

"Fuck aliens." © WarriorPoet415

  

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Reeq
Member since Mar 11th 2013
6958 posts
Wed Aug-14-19 10:40 AM

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102. "lol dudes 1st post he came in *hot*."
In response to Reply # 101


  

          

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mista k5
Member since Feb 01st 2006
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Wed Aug-14-19 10:44 AM

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103. "lol i didnt even notice that"
In response to Reply # 102


  

          

i mean the content isnt bad but it being your first post???

  

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Reeq
Member since Mar 11th 2013
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Wed Aug-14-19 11:08 AM

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107. "his stats are a pretty damning indictment of bernie as a candidate."
In response to Reply # 103
Wed Aug-14-19 11:25 AM by Reeq

  

          

simply running on 'rich people hate me so i must be doing something right!' isnt an effective campaign strategy lol.

elizabeth warren...running essentially on the same platform...is pulling 5x as much support from a group that bernie is completely failing with. so its not the policies...its the candidate.

im not sure if bernie supporters realize...but people who make over $100k vote...and they vote a lot. they make up 1 out of every 3 voters.

if you wanna demonize and cast aside 33% of the electorate and expect to win a primary...much less the general...good luck with that.

like i said before...bernie is running a pretty shitty campaign. zero focus on expanding his base and some strange fascination with alienating folks he needs to win.

politics (especially democratic party politics) is about coalition building. bernie and his campaign actually being emboldened by appealing to less people is weird to watch lol.

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Brew
Member since Nov 23rd 2002
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Wed Aug-14-19 11:11 AM

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109. "His "me against the world" mentality isn't helping either."
In response to Reply # 107


          

He's constantly on the attack, accusing media outlets of overlooking him (true or not, isn't the point) and playing the victim. It plays well with his core base but turns other voters off.

----------------------------------------

"Fuck aliens." © WarriorPoet415

  

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Reeq
Member since Mar 11th 2013
6958 posts
Wed Aug-14-19 11:23 AM

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111. "yeah dude is repelling even people who like his policies."
In response to Reply # 109
Wed Aug-14-19 11:23 AM by Reeq

  

          

im not sure why red flags arent being raised by his campaign staff. i assume they wanna win but maybe not lol.

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Stadiq
Member since Dec 21st 2005
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Wed Aug-14-19 03:20 PM

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130. "I get lower on Bernie the more I interact/read/hear his supporters"
In response to Reply # 111
Wed Aug-14-19 03:23 PM by Stadiq

          

I think you mentioned it in here somewhere.

I had the same issue with hardcore Hillary supporters, to be fair.


But their blinders/hero worship/saint making/etc is exhausting. They would rather lose with their candidate than win with someone who matches said candidate 90% or whatever.


Dude is in here attacking Elizabeth Warren. Huh?


I get its a primary. But dude didn't login to attack Biden. Or Petey Pablo. Or Beto.

He didn't log in to attack the 'centrist' candidates.


He logged in to attack the most progressive actual Democrat in the race.


And its a weak argument at that. As you said, 100k + vote. There are also no doubt other factors impacting that statistic.

And the other attacks? Shitting on the CCB. Calling her a weapon of the establishment. Etc.

Claiming that he was going to get "attacked" in here for supporting Bernie, when he.is.second.in.this.very.poll.

I'm not saying they shouldn't support Bernie if thats their guy. But they should at least be able to talk about his potential weaknesses that could/would lead to him losing.

Pretending the weaknesses aren't there does no good- ask Hillary supporters.

And they should focus their anger on the centrist candidates- not the other progressive in the race.

  

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Reeq
Member since Mar 11th 2013
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Wed Aug-14-19 03:49 PM

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135. "dude is acting like bernie wasnt the clear okp poll frontrunner"
In response to Reply # 130


  

          

not too long ago. like he is coming in here posting in hostile territory when most of us voted for sanders in 2016.

the attacks on warren are par for the cult at this point unfortunately. somebody else on here did something similar a while ago. scorched earth on anything seen as a threat to sanders (despite warren being nothing but respectful to him).

bernie skipped out on netroots nation this year...the largest political convention for progressives/activists/grassroots...because daily kos (the largest progressive political site and sponsor of the convention) wrote some unflattering but accurate articles on him. you cant make this up.

he still went and did a townhall on fox news tho...where only 3% of democratic primary voters tune into.

seriously these folks think all of this is gonna win them an election?

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reaction
Member since Aug 09th 2019
28 posts
Wed Aug-14-19 07:21 PM

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144. "RE: dude is acting like bernie wasnt the clear okp poll frontrunner"
In response to Reply # 135


          

>bernie skipped out on netroots nation this year...the largest
>political convention for
>progressives/activists/grassroots...because daily kos (the
>largest progressive political site and sponsor of the
>convention) wrote some unflattering but accurate articles on
>him. you cant make this up.

I'm sure you know this too but Daily Kos completely purged all Bernie voters in 2016 and is virulently anti-Bernie. There are entire subreddits like wayofthebern and kossacksforsanders that were created after the purge.

>he still went and did a townhall on fox news tho...where only
>3% of democratic primary voters tune into.
>
>seriously these folks think all of this is gonna win them an
>election?

Going on Fox News for the highest rated town hall of the year and on Joe Rogan where he's had 8 million views in a week and one of the most watched Rogan podcasts of all time is a winning move. You would be amazed at how many people who watched Rogan are now realizing that they have been lied to about who Sanders is and what he represents and now support him.

  

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reaction
Member since Aug 09th 2019
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Wed Aug-14-19 07:14 PM

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142. "RE: I get lower on Bernie the more I interact/read/hear his supporters"
In response to Reply # 130


          

>And they should focus their anger on the centrist candidates-
>not the other progressive in the race.

But she's not progressive in the sense that Bernie is. None of you guys question why Warren gets 90% praise from the media and Bernie gets 90% hate. Do people think the media has the common man's interests in mind? Really?

Isn't it odd that the media has pushed every candidate for awhile yet Bernie is the one who holds steady in the polls. Imagine if they pushed him for awhile. That will never happen because he is the enemy, by praising Warren they are helping vanquish the enemy. None of the other media pushes have stuck except Warren so even though she isn't the ideal candidate in their minds anything is better than Bernie. There are literally people on MSNBC saying Bernie makes their skin crawl with no pushback.

It scares me that this is the last chance for Bernie to run and if Warren is successful in sidelining him you will hear a huge sigh of relief from the establishment and she will be greatly rewarded. I'm seeing too many people being fooled by her and accepting that she is in the same league as Bernie, that is why she is the one I am focusing on. Despite believing she would lose to Trump, if she did make it in a Warren presidency would come with no great change. If you want structural change and I would argue that is what we desperately need again there is only one option.

  

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reaction
Member since Aug 09th 2019
28 posts
Wed Aug-14-19 12:10 PM

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113. "RE: his stats are a pretty damning indictment of bernie as a candidate."
In response to Reply # 107


          

>simply running on 'rich people hate me so i must be doing
>something right!' isnt an effective campaign strategy lol.

As I outlined Bernie is leading a movement of the underclass and those empathetic to it. In many ways he is more an activist than
a typical politician. It amazes me that hip hop is supposed to be rooted in compassionate politics and love for the underdog but Bernie is so reviled on here. He is a once in a lifetime candidate and if people blow this opportunity there won't be another one soon. No one can question Bernie's authenticity, his tirelessness and his dedication to helping others, that is why the overwhelming majority of activists support Bernie, from Danny Glover (https://www.facebook.com/berniesanders/videos/danny-glover-you-cannot-meddle-around-the-middle/356769618356179/), to Harry Belafonte (https://twitter.com/zachjcarter/status/982392714061926405?s=20) to Bobby Seale https://twitter.com/BlackSocialists/status/961229366272413697?s=20 down to J Cole https://twitter.com/billboard/status/1046083458076995584?s=20

>elizabeth warren...running essentially on the same
>platform...is pulling 5x as much support from a group that
>bernie is completely failing with. so its not the
>policies...its the candidate.

If she's running on the same platform then why didn't she cosponsor many of his Senate bills over the years (except Medicare For All which she has continuously waffled on) and didn't endorse this "same" platform in 2016. She's not a fighter or an activist. Where was her plan for Standing Rock when it was happening or her plan not to vote for Trump's military budgets repeatedly. I think Warren is the establishment's best weapon to stop the Sanders movement and that she is actually a wolf in sheep's clothing against radical change. When you have CAP and Third Way and Neera Tanden and the media in Elizabeth Warren's corner it doesn't take much to ask why am I being fooled?

I know OKP well and know that I will be vehemently disagreed with by 98% of the people on here but the bottom line is this, do you want to see a more fair and just world for the working poor, the sick, the uninsured, the underinsured, the innocent in places like Yemen, those who can't afford a higher education, the imprisoned, as opposed to just your own bottom line. If so there is only one campaign that will provide that. If you truly don't want that then vote otherwise, just don't complain about any of it not being fixed in 2020 and beyond.


>politics (especially democratic party politics) is about
>coalition building. bernie and his campaign actually being
>emboldened by appealing to less people is weird to watch lol.

Please print out this map and stare at it until you can see the blue. https://twitter.com/TweetingYarnie/status/1157352649060225024?s=20

  

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Walleye
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Wed Aug-14-19 12:30 PM

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114. "Hell yeah, dude"
In response to Reply # 113


          

"Politics" is something a verb. Keep telling people.

______________________________

"Walleye, a lot of things are going to go wrong in your life that technically aren't your fault. Always remember that this doesn't make you any less of an idiot"

--Walleye's Dad

  

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Reeq
Member since Mar 11th 2013
6958 posts
Wed Aug-14-19 12:46 PM

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115. "warren isnt a fighter? shes a weapon of the establishment???"
In response to Reply # 113


  

          

lol what?

elizabeth warren has had more success for working people as a college professor than bernie has had in 30 years in congress.

if you can point me to bernies landmark law or anything anywhere close to the level of warrens consumer financial protection bureau then id be happy to hear about it.

i honestly cant tell if some of yall bernie supporters are real people or bots/trolls at this point.

bernie supporters legit might be the best weapon against bernie lol. cuz yall are on some cult level narrative warp and even prior (sane) bernie voters are running in the other direction because of yall.

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reaction
Member since Aug 09th 2019
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Wed Aug-14-19 01:40 PM

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117. "RE: warren isnt a fighter? shes a weapon of the establishment???"
In response to Reply # 115


          

>if you can point me to bernies landmark law or anything
>anywhere close to the level of warrens consumer financial
>protection bureau then id be happy to hear about it.

Putting aside the argument that the CFPB was set up to be unaccountable and questions of its effectiveness Bernie has huge accomplishments himself. First of all as the Amendment King of Congress https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2016/mar/24/bernie-s/bernie-sanders-was-roll-call-amendment-king-1995-2/ he procured $11 billion in money for Community Health Clinics as part of the ACA https://theintercept.com/2015/07/06/gop-senators-support-sanders-obamacare-expansion/?comments=1

More recently he was able to invoke the War Powers Act for the first time in American history in order to end a genocide in Yemen. Trump vetoed it but it was nevertheless a massive accomplishment in trying to stop the world's biggest ongoing humanitarian disaster that is virtually ignored. He also got 300,000 Amazon workers a raise to $15 an hour with the threat of the Stop BEZOS Act. He also helped Disney workers get $15/hour and that is without even being President, imagine what he could do if he was.

>i honestly cant tell if some of yall bernie supporters are
>real people or bots/trolls at this point.

I'm not going to attack you personally after this but I've read everything that you're written about politics on here since 2015 and I've never seen someone who better embodies the definition of neoliberal better than you and stravinskian. It is comical how much you guys have been wrong while all along parroting every mainstream talking point.

Again politics is not a game, people are hurting and if you want to see them helped in any significant way the only choice is Bernie, everyone else will pivot right and cave to corporate pressure guaranteed.

  

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Reeq
Member since Mar 11th 2013
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Wed Aug-14-19 03:28 PM

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132. "cmon fam you gotta admit this is some trumpian goalpost moving."
In response to Reply # 117


  

          

somehow the 'once in a lifetime candidate' (who ironically already lost an election this lifetime) is now the king of roll call amendments, the champion of symbolic but failed congressional legislation, and apparently a master at using dead end bills in a senate minority to extort concessions out of private companies.

imagine running for president on a platform based on a 30 yr record of 'other people got signature laws passed but i added a bunch of shit to them!'

and amazon cut benefits, worker hours, stock comp, and bonuses btw...so their real world wages actually fell.
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/amazon-minimum-wage-hike-compensation-cuts_n_5bb573d2e4b028e1fe3a6ba9
but i didnt see bernie or his supporters rushing out to take credit for that part. congrats on another symbolic but meaningless headline victory i guess.

also thanks for publicly tying bernie to obamacare too. im glad you admit he played an instrumental role in devising a healthcare law that apparently sucks so much he wants to destroy it.


>I'm not going to attack you personally after this but I've
>read everything that you're written about politics on here
>since 2015 and I've never seen someone who better embodies the
>definition of neoliberal better than you and stravinskian. It
>is comical how much you guys have been wrong while all along
>parroting every mainstream talking point.

ah there it is. the good ol game of 'neoliberal' tag (anyone who doesnt flock to bernie is 'it').

when you cant win a debate on the merits just call everyone the progressive version of 'snowflake'/'cuck' lol.


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reaction
Member since Aug 09th 2019
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Wed Aug-14-19 03:49 PM

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134. "RE: cmon fam you gotta admit this is some trumpian goalpost moving."
In response to Reply # 132


          

there are so many distortions and smears in here just have time to respond to the most egregious

>and amazon cut benefits, worker hours, stock comp, and bonuses
>btw...so their real world wages actually fell.
>https://www.huffpost.com/entry/amazon-minimum-wage-hike-compensation-cuts_n_5bb573d2e4b028e1fe3a6ba9

All Amazon workers will make more than before https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2018/10/10/amazon-tells-bernie-sanders-all-workers-will-earn-more-despite-bonuses-stock-grants-going-away/ I'm sure you can find one or two Amazon workers complaining on Twitter but tell the 300,000 workers compensation will go back to pre Sanders levels and see how many would choose that option.

Also I noticed you left out the Yemen War Powers Act, there are 10's of 1000's of children starving and dying there as we speak but you may have gained one imaginary political point, congrats.

>also thanks for publicly tying bernie to obamacare too. im
>glad you admit he played an instrumental role in devising a
>healthcare law that apparently sucks so much he wants to
>destroy it.

Hi Joe Biden. Another lie, he would be IMPROVING it not destroying it but you know that.

  

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Reeq
Member since Mar 11th 2013
6958 posts
Wed Aug-14-19 04:27 PM

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136. "wait youre co-opting amazon damage control pr statements now"
In response to Reply # 134
Wed Aug-14-19 04:37 PM by Reeq

  

          

just to try to save face for bernie?

thats even more trumpian than the goalpost moving. anything to look good even if it means gaslighting the people you are supposedly fighting for. based only on a big beautiful letter kim ju...i mean amazon sent to bernie lol.

you...an avid bernie supporter...actually saw 'amazon says' in the title and thought 'yeah lets run with that'?

3/4 of that article is about workers saying amazon is full of shit (like all unbiased analysis of their new compensation plan has detailed) but you went with the jeff bezos double pinky swear?

seriously...a bernie supporter is using what 'amazon says' to argue against actual amazon workers just so another purely symbolic bernie victory doesnt get exposed.

is this about just convincing people of bernie 'wins' or this about actually improving the lives of workers? think about that for a second.


>Hi Joe Biden. Another lie, he would be IMPROVING it not
>destroying it but you know that.

oh ok so you dont actually know what medicare for all is. somehow the system that eliminates existing private healthcare plans doesnt eliminate the system defining the markets for existing private healthcare plans?

medicare for all (as proposed by sanders) is an obamacare repeal. just from the left.




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reaction
Member since Aug 09th 2019
28 posts
Wed Aug-14-19 04:53 PM

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138. "RE: wait youre co-opting amazon damage control pr statements now"
In response to Reply # 136


          

They cited one anonymous worker, it was the first article that came up and not that I believe Amazon at face value but it's coming up on a year since November and I can't remember hearing any Amazon workers complaining about the raise recently and I follow things really closely, if you have feel free to link a 2019 article.


>oh ok so you dont actually know what medicare for all is.
>somehow the system that eliminates existing private healthcare
>plans doesnt eliminate the system defining the markets for
>existing private healthcare plans?

It improves healthcare and improves the ACA because the healthcare would improve and expand, it just doesn't improve the insurance companies balance sheets. You know these things and are arguing just to argue. If Medicare for All passed Bernie would be looked at as a hero for generations as Tommy Douglas is in Canada.

  

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Brew
Member since Nov 23rd 2002
17677 posts
Wed Aug-14-19 01:42 PM

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118. "Thank you."
In response to Reply # 115


          

>lol what?
>
>elizabeth warren has had more success for working people as a
>college professor than bernie has had in 30 years in
>congress.
>
>if you can point me to bernies landmark law or anything
>anywhere close to the level of warrens consumer financial
>protection bureau then id be happy to hear about it.

Beat me to it.


>i honestly cant tell if some of yall bernie supporters are
>real people or bots/trolls at this point.
>
>bernie supporters legit might be the best weapon against
>bernie lol. cuz yall are on some cult level narrative warp
>and even prior (sane) bernie voters are running in the other
>direction because of yall.

----------------------------------------

"Fuck aliens." © WarriorPoet415

  

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kayru99
Member since Jan 26th 2004
15504 posts
Fri Aug-16-19 12:13 PM

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170. "warren isn't running the same platform"
In response to Reply # 107


          

and how is getting more support from the majority of the population a bad thing?
What?

  

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mista k5
Member since Feb 01st 2006
10256 posts
Wed Aug-14-19 03:29 PM

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133. "upon further review: mods please delete my comment"
In response to Reply # 103


  

          

i take it back

  

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stravinskian
Member since Feb 24th 2003
11723 posts
Wed Aug-14-19 01:58 PM

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121. "Pretty sure it's a Vex alias."
In response to Reply # 101


          


Vex reappears with a one-line comment after a long absence and then the same day some new poster arrives spouting his same silly arguments ("really, they call him the amendment king!"), claiming to have been lurking since 2015 (apparently he wasn't fired up enough about Bernie to post in 2015, or 2016, but he is now!), and beefing against the same people.

  

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reaction
Member since Aug 09th 2019
28 posts
Wed Aug-14-19 02:04 PM

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123. "RE: Pretty sure it's a Vex alias."
In response to Reply # 121


          

Nope. I tried to open a new account many times on here and always got an error message and nobody at OKP would ever respond to my emails. It wasn't until the boards went down recently and then back up that I tried again and someone finally responded.

  

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stravinskian
Member since Feb 24th 2003
11723 posts
Wed Aug-14-19 02:12 PM

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124. "LOL, true, we are a very selective group."
In response to Reply # 123


          


I'm not so surprised it took four years to get into our good graces. Congrats and welcome!

  

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Brew
Member since Nov 23rd 2002
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Wed Aug-14-19 02:14 PM

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125. "Hahaha"
In response to Reply # 121


          

----------------------------------------

"Fuck aliens." © WarriorPoet415

  

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Reeq
Member since Mar 11th 2013
6958 posts
Wed Aug-14-19 02:24 PM

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127. "lol "
In response to Reply # 121


  

          

------

  

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Stadiq
Member since Dec 21st 2005
3339 posts
Wed Aug-14-19 03:22 PM

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131. "lol honestly had the same thought"
In response to Reply # 121


          

  

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Vex_id
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Wed Aug-14-19 05:27 PM

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139. "lol glad to see even after a long absence, I'm still on your mind"
In response to Reply # 121


  

          

That said, I don't do aliases.

-->

  

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Reeq
Member since Mar 11th 2013
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Wed Aug-14-19 10:54 AM

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106. "bernie isnt even the 1st choice for 2016 *bernie* voters anymore lol."
In response to Reply # 100
Wed Aug-14-19 11:11 AM by Reeq

  

          

whats your counter argument for *that*?

https://twitter.com/gelliottmorris/status/1148549603387744256
--------------------
Per last week's Economist/YouGov poll, Bernie Sanders is no longer the 1st choice of 2016 Sanders voters; Elizabeth Warren is.

2016 Clinton voters...
Biden: 32%
Warren: 17
Harris: 17
Buttigieg: 7
Sanders: 5

2016 Sanders...
Warren: 29
Sanders: 24
Harris: 11
Buttigieg: 9
Biden: 6
--------------------

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PimpTrickGangstaClik
Member since Oct 06th 2005
14276 posts
Wed Aug-14-19 11:11 AM

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108. "Not the person you're talking to, but this is the counter argument"
In response to Reply # 106


  

          

https://twitter.com/gelliottmorris/status/1148549604360839168?s=20

"There is a rather large margin of error here, though—on the order of 5-10% for each candidate."

_______________________________________
You ain't the only one whose got problems. You ain't the only one who knows pain. Get up off your ass and just solve them. You still got a chance to try to change, try the shit again.
Devin tha Dude

  

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Reeq
Member since Mar 11th 2013
6958 posts
Wed Aug-14-19 11:21 AM

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110. "thats typical of early polling."
In response to Reply # 108


  

          

it also means bernie could be polling as low as 14% among *his own* 2016 voters.

if any majority....plurality...or even a significant minority of your previous voters are jumping ship...thats disastrous. most (competent) campaigns would take that as a sharp sign to correct course...not double down.

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Vex_id
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Wed Aug-14-19 05:57 PM

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140. "that's true and an important point, but the question is:"
In response to Reply # 106


  

          

Where will the Harris/Pete/Yang/Tulsi etc.. voters migrate to as the field gets narrowed down. There are many voters who would be happy with either Warren or Sanders as the nominee - and will likely support whoever is striding the strongest as the primary matures.

I think Bernie is in good standing, and will likely win NH (again) - but Biden is going to be tough to beat in the conservative democrat south.

I think Warren has run the strongest campaign of any candidate thus far - and it will be interesting to see if she can keep the momentum going to create distance between her and Bernie.

I don't see Biden picking up a lot of votes from those who are currently supporting more fringe/progressive candidates - so the battle is between Sanders & Warren to see who will emerge to challenge Biden (who I believe is very vulnerable and the beneficiary of bloated polling).
-->

  

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Reeq
Member since Mar 11th 2013
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Wed Aug-14-19 06:33 PM

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141. "warrens achilles heel might be black voters."
In response to Reply # 140


  

          

shes getting a ton of praise/endorsements from black activists and political operatives on twitter...but it isnt really translating over to black voters.

she should be making the hardest of plays for that group. because no democratic candidate has won the nomination without winning the black vote since 1992. her campaign should be launching an all out assault on the 'electability' narrative as well. that doesnt hurt anyone as much as warren (many people who have her as their 1st pick on policy and up going with biden when they factor in who they think can actually win).

i pretty much have a visceral hate of biden at this point but he absolutely laps the field when it comes to black voters (especially in the south) and older moderate/conservative dems. who do you think votes in the primary? lol. thats a solid ass base. and if any other candidate who wasnt known for a being an idiot on the campaign trail had a base makeup like that...they would be in the catbird seat.

dem candidates in general are kinda being idiots themselves by attacking biden from the left and smearing the last dem president who has a 99% approval rating with black democrats and 97% approval rating with dems overall. they should be appealing directly to bidens largely moderate base somewhere with policies and cultural commentary to peel away those voters. apparently people dont like doing things that were basic rules of political thumb in the past anymore.

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kfine
Member since Jan 11th 2009
1039 posts
Wed Aug-14-19 07:40 PM

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146. "Define "the black vote" though.."
In response to Reply # 141


          


>
>she should be making the hardest of plays for that group.
>because no democratic candidate has won the nomination without
>winning the black vote since 1992.


If every AKA in the country votes for Kamala, does that mean she has "the black vote"...?

If Biden secures the vote of every black church lady in the south, does that mean he has "the black vote"...?

If Marianne Williamson has the vote of everybody with the ADOS hashtag in their twitter profile, does that mean she has "the black vote"...?

If almost every black professional along the east coast (and on okp) likes Warren, does that mean she has "the black vote"...?


I don't know. It just seems like this monolith paradigm is becoming increasingly outdated... at least to adjudicate such a competitive primary. I almost think candidates should do the reverse... like just look at the segments you are appealling to and if a sizeable proportion of a particular segment is black (or another minority), then make sure you have intersectional outreach eg. Biden with older and faith-based democrats. But just some blanket "black outreach" strategy?? That seems like it would be ineffective because there are very distinct segments with such different priorities (and aversions).

  

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Reeq
Member since Mar 11th 2013
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Wed Aug-14-19 08:35 PM

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148. "oh im just using it as shorthand for the majority of black voters."
In response to Reply # 146


  

          

not saying all black people march to the beat of one drum.

1 out of every 4 votes cast in this primary are expected to be from black people. the person who gets the majority of *those*...whoever/wherever they come from...is our next nominee. periodt.

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kfine
Member since Jan 11th 2009
1039 posts
Wed Aug-14-19 11:08 PM

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150. "right, I hear ya"
In response to Reply # 148


          

  

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naame
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Fri Aug-16-19 10:54 AM

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161. "how much of warren's inability to reach black voters is based on "
In response to Reply # 141


  

          

name recognition? People had no idea who Bernie Sanders was in 2015/2016. It was fairly clear that they weren't going to vote for him. Anybody on a stage with Hillary was going to lose, ask Lincoln Chaffee or Jim Webb.


America has imported more warlord theocracy from Afghanistan than it has exported democracy.

  

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Reeq
Member since Mar 11th 2013
6958 posts
Fri Aug-16-19 02:53 PM

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188. "yeah black voters more often support"
In response to Reply # 161


  

          

those they have an existing relationship with...even over those with superior policies for the black community.

nobody is more brand loyal than black people.

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Vex_id
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Fri Aug-16-19 01:35 PM

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180. "Biden is being buoyed by black voters (just like Clinton was) "
In response to Reply # 141


  

          

He's a known entity with name recognition that many attach to Obama's legacy. But more to the point: the majority of black voters over 50 are among the most conservative voters in Democratic primaries. Biden is the clear beneficiary of that.

-->

  

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Reeq
Member since Mar 11th 2013
6958 posts
Fri Aug-16-19 02:56 PM

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189. "yup to all this."
In response to Reply # 180


  

          

the one silver lining (to biden opponents) is that he is closer to clinton in 2008 than clinton in 2016 in terms of that black firewall.

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Dr Claw
Member since Jun 25th 2003
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Wed Aug-14-19 02:15 PM

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126. "well this tells me who NOT to vote for, LMAO"
In response to Reply # 100


  

          

>Buttigieg: 37%
>O'Rourke: 30%
>Warren: 20%
>Biden: 18%
>Harris: 18%
>Yang: 18%
>Sanders: 4%

weird ass poll. how is Warren above the trio of Biden/Harris/Yang(!!) in that demographic?

what do they like about Warren more?

  

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reaction
Member since Aug 09th 2019
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Wed Aug-14-19 02:30 PM

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128. "RE: well this tells me who NOT to vote for, LMAO"
In response to Reply # 126


          

Here are 2 articles that do a good job in explaining it:

https://fortune.com/2019/07/07/elizabeth-warren-wins-respect-in-unlikely-place-wall-street/

https://www.counterpunch.org/2019/08/12/dear-progressives-for-warren-your-class-is-showing/

The bottom line is the rich aren't scared of her like they are Bernie. They know she might tinker around the edges a bit but won't do anything too radical. The wealth tax she probably won't even fight for but if she did it would most likely be struck down as unconstitutional. A lot of Warren's base are former Clinton supporters, she has a lot of Clinton people on her team. If Bernie wasn't around then Warren be the best of the worst but with him here it's no contest about who would shake up the fossil fuel, banking, pharmaceutical, insurance industries the most, not to mention the military industrial complex. Bernie's ultimate goal is to divert most of the world's military resources away from killing and towards combating climate change whereas Warren's answer is this https://medium.com/dsa-detroit-newspaper/last-week-massachusetts-senator-and-presidential-hopeful-elizabeth-warren-dropped-yet-another-of-ab8e842eb0b5

  

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kayru99
Member since Jan 26th 2004
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Fri Aug-16-19 12:17 PM

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171. "BRUH, LMAO"
In response to Reply # 126


          

Dude really did just try to push this as a negative for the Sanders campaign. In THIS era.
OK, lol

  

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Vex_id
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179. "Right? lol The #NeverBernie movement is real."
In response to Reply # 171
Fri Aug-16-19 01:33 PM by Vex_id

  

          

The notion that so many are trying to spin nuance to make it seem like a candidate who speaks for and represents working/poor people somehow reflects negatively on his candidacy?

Bernie's not my top choice - but it's hilarious to see so many people trashing him when the entire field has essentially adopted his platform. And to think that "progressives" would give Biden a pass and spend their time denigrating Sanders? Well, I guess that's a savvy thing to do if you're trying to appeal to Joy Reid's audience.



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Reeq
Member since Mar 11th 2013
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Fri Aug-16-19 05:14 PM

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202. "yall do realize the point of elections is to win the most votes right?"
In response to Reply # 179


  

          

if you wanna completely dismiss 1/3 of the electorate then thats cool i guess lol.

if its just about resonating only with a majority demographic/subset then why even campaign to black people?

bernie is dropping like a rock (even on okp of all places) and yall (apparently only yall) seem to think that his losing strategy is a smart one.

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Brew
Member since Nov 23rd 2002
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Fri Aug-16-19 05:46 PM

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206. "That's the thing. Vex and this new dude consider this "trashing""
In response to Reply # 202


          

when really it's being strategic.

No one's arguing that ideologically, Bernie checks all boxes for the world we'd all like to live in.

But we don't live in that utopia. And so debating a candidate for president in the America we actually live in requires some discourse about who's got the best chance to flip voters who don't necessarily share the entirety of our progressive vision of the world.

It sucks but that's our reality.

----------------------------------------

"Fuck aliens." © WarriorPoet415

  

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reaction
Member since Aug 09th 2019
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Fri Aug-16-19 08:26 PM

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217. "RE: That's the thing. Vex and this new dude consider this "trashing""
In response to Reply # 206


          

>But we don't live in that utopia. And so debating a candidate
>for president in the America we actually live in requires some
>discourse about who's got the best chance to flip voters who
>don't necessarily share the entirety of our progressive vision
>of the world.

Bernie has beaten Trump in every poll for 4 years and is still ahead of him by almost as much as Biden (who is Diet Trump) but it's a utopia to have Bernie? If people want him they can have him. He does great with Independents who are becoming a bigger and bigger slice of the electorate, has some crossover appeal as seen by the response to Joe Rogan and has the youth vote who are the future. Undermining him is just taking away the best chance to beat Trump. I think if Bernie can win the primary (which is the real fight) he would almost certainly win the general.

And please don't say he hasn't been vetted, daily smears and attacks from every media site and pundit for 4 straight years 24/7 is the strongest vetting possible.

  

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Vex_id
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Fri Aug-16-19 08:07 PM

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215. "not sure why this even needed to be said."
In response to Reply # 202


  

          


>bernie is dropping like a rock (even on okp of all places) and
>yall (apparently only yall) seem to think that his losing
>strategy is a smart one.

I haven't even remarked on his strategy. What I and a couple others above were referring to was Bernie's authenticity in genuinely being a candidate for the working class and poor. You're caught up in some Robert Costa talking point but not everything is about political cost.


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Buddy_Gilapagos
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Wed Aug-14-19 01:01 PM

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116. "Do Dems need to come to terms that HRC was the wrong candidate in 2016? "
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Not only does Hillary live on as a target for the rights irrational fury, but the left seems unwilling to admit she played any hand in her "loss" despite Russian Tampering, Comey, the media.

The could be problematic if Dems don't acknowledge it. Mainly, if they pick a candidate which has many of the same vulnerabilities that she had (Support of the Crime Bill, the Iraq War, & the Patriot Act, etc.)

Folks should talk about it.

**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

  

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Brew
Member since Nov 23rd 2002
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120. "Yea probably."
In response to Reply # 116


          

>RE: Do Dems need to come to terms that HRC was the wrong candidate in 2016?
>Not only does Hillary live on as a target for the rights
>irrational fury, but the left seems unwilling to admit she
>played any hand in her "loss" despite Russian Tampering,
>Comey, the media.
>
>The could be problematic if Dems don't acknowledge it. Mainly,
>if they pick a candidate which has many of the same
>vulnerabilities that she had (Support of the Crime Bill, the
>Iraq War, & the Patriot Act, etc.)
>
>Folks should talk about it.
>
>**********
>"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then
>they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson
>
>"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

----------------------------------------

"Fuck aliens." © WarriorPoet415

  

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kayru99
Member since Jan 26th 2004
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Fri Aug-16-19 12:20 PM

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172. "LOLOL"
In response to Reply # 116


          

man folks been saying that since 2015.
She just ain't listen, and folks STILL ain't listen cuz RussiaTrumpBotsBernieBrosHoteps or something of other is the real reaso she lost.
Acknowledging that hillary was a shit candidate means acknowledging how wrong headed the dems have been for like 30 years

  

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Vex_id
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Fri Aug-16-19 03:22 PM

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194. "Of course they do - and of course (most) of them won't. "
In response to Reply # 116


  

          

This absurd game of political malpractice and denial is why we even have a Trump presidency, and it may be why we have a 2nd Trump term (which I'm not sure the nation will survive).

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Dr Claw
Member since Jun 25th 2003
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Mon Aug-19-19 03:10 PM

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239. "you are absolutely correct."
In response to Reply # 194
Mon Aug-19-19 03:12 PM by Dr Claw

  

          

and this isn't "a should have been Bernie" thing either.

the fact that Bernie Sanders was able to "disrupt" what was, in most assessments, a coronation was a sign that maybe she wasn't it.

really, the 2008 L should have been that.

the Dems were lucky AF to have Obama in 2008.

I'm so damn pessimistic about next year that I think I'm already going through that stage of grief

  

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Airbreed
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Wed Aug-14-19 01:49 PM

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119. "I've been paying more attention to Tulsi Gabbard lately. "
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Morso than any other candidate right now. Except for maybe Elizabeth Warren.

Gabbard co-sponsored Booker's reparations bill.
She strongly opposes regime change wars
Supports medicare for all
She's working towards reliving student debt
She's also about prison reform where she wants to reduce mandatory minimums for certain non-violent offenders, recidivism rates, and crime rates.

Still need to hear more from her on the racial wealth gap and police brutality.

But she has my attention.

  

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Lurkmode
Member since May 07th 2011
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Wed Aug-14-19 02:00 PM

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122. "Pass on Tulsi Gabbard"
In response to Reply # 119


  

          


She attacked Kamala Harris and gave Biden a pass
plus she met with Assad

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Vex_id
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Wed Aug-14-19 04:49 PM

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137. "yea isn't she BFF's with Putin?"
In response to Reply # 122


  

          

I can't believe this non-sense still persists people with internet access:

>
>plus she met with Assad

lol.

Please get educated:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPNr2CGFIwA



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Lurkmode
Member since May 07th 2011
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Wed Aug-14-19 07:18 PM

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143. "Take off the blinders, put the strawman down"
In response to Reply # 137


  

          

>I can't believe this non-sense still persists people with
>internet access:

Less strawman

>>
>>plus she met with Assad
>
>lol.
>
>Please get educated:
>
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPNr2CGFIwA
>
>
>

Linking to a puff piece is educating ? wow, stay a while see how it's done.

This has more details and it's from 2017

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/jan/26/tulsi-gabbard-bashar-al-assad-syria-democrats


Tulsi gives Biden a pass and you talk about something I didn't say instead of something I did say.

https://thehill.com/hilltv/rising/455800-gabbard-defends-biden-on-iraq-war-record-he-was-wrong-he-said-he-was-wrong


https://www.politico.com/story/2019/08/08/tulsi-gabbard-kamala-harris-2020-1452578

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Vex_id
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145. "ok - let's debate it. "
In response to Reply # 143
Wed Aug-14-19 07:30 PM by Vex_id

  

          

Why is Tulsi meeting with Assad a deal-breaker for you?


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Lurkmode
Member since May 07th 2011
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Wed Aug-14-19 07:53 PM

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147. "Tulsi wasn't going to get anything out of it."
In response to Reply # 145


  

          

Shows poor leadership skills plus all the secrecy is a problem.

On top of that she can't say she was there for the Syrian people then turn around and vote against refugees coming to the U.S.

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Tw3nty
Member since Jan 02nd 2007
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Thu Aug-15-19 07:14 AM

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151. "Tulsi out here calling homosexuals extremists"
In response to Reply # 147


  

          

She also use to support a gay conversion therapy organization.
Hard pass.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

  

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Lurkmode
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Thu Aug-15-19 09:16 AM

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153. "Yep that too"
In response to Reply # 151


  

          

>She also use to support a gay conversion therapy
>organization.
>Hard pass.

Damn no wonder she was meeting with Trump she has something in common with Pence

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Vex_id
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Fri Aug-16-19 10:27 AM

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157. "RE: Tulsi out here calling homosexuals extremists"
In response to Reply # 151


  

          

>She also use to support a gay conversion therapy
>organization.

That's also false. Where are you guys getting your information from? Lol


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Tw3nty
Member since Jan 02nd 2007
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Fri Aug-16-19 12:28 PM

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173. "She did say it tho, although she's now apologizing."
In response to Reply # 157


  

          

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

  

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Lurkmode
Member since May 07th 2011
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Fri Aug-16-19 12:51 PM

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174. "RE: Tulsi out here calling homosexuals extremists"
In response to Reply # 157


  

          

https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/13/politics/kfile-tulsi-gabbard-lgbt/index.html


"To try to act as if there is a difference between 'civil unions' and same-sex marriage is dishonest, cowardly and extremely disrespectful to the people of Hawaii," Gabbard said at the time. "As Democrats we should be representing the views of the people, not a small number of homosexual extremists."


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Vex_id
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Fri Aug-16-19 01:23 PM

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178. "RE: Tulsi out here calling homosexuals extremists"
In response to Reply # 174


  

          

Where in that link did she call for conversion therapy? That's (again) a very specific allegation that you haven't backed up with evidence.

Everyone knows that Tulsi was raised in a socially conservative household where her father held horrible views and supported backwards, evangelical organizations. Incidentally - he has changed after Tulsi persuaded him to change his ways/thinking (which is something we should applaud).

So yes - when Tulsi was in high school (up until she was 21) she still was subject to the views her father conditioned her to adapt - but she not only changed course, she became one of the most vocal pro-LGBTQ members of Congress. For 8 years her record (not just her rhetoric) is clear: She has a 100% rating from the Human Rights Commission on LGBTQ/equality matters.


-->

  

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Vex_id
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Fri Aug-16-19 10:29 AM

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158. "It shows poor leadership to meet leaders of another country?"
In response to Reply # 147


  

          

What "secrecy" was attached to that meeting?

I suppose you also joined the chorus of people criticizing Obama for saying he'd meet with Iran and other foreign "adversaries" in 2008?


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reaction
Member since Aug 09th 2019
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Fri Aug-16-19 10:53 AM

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160. "RE: It shows poor leadership to meet leaders of another country?"
In response to Reply # 158
Fri Aug-16-19 10:55 AM by reaction

          

>What "secrecy" was attached to that meeting?
>
>I suppose you also joined the chorus of people criticizing
>Obama for saying he'd meet with Iran and other foreign
>"adversaries" in 2008?

Right, and I guess this isn't Nancy Pelosi in this pic with Assad? https://www.denverpost.com/2007/04/04/pelosi-meets-with-syrias-assad/

Vex, unfortunately most of the people on here just spout what they hear on the news and don't think for themselves.

  

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Lurkmode
Member since May 07th 2011
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Fri Aug-16-19 12:04 PM

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169. "RE: It shows poor leadership to meet leaders of another country?"
In response to Reply # 160


  

          


>Right, and I guess this isn't Nancy Pelosi in this pic with
>Assad?
>https://www.denverpost.com/2007/04/04/pelosi-meets-with-syrias-assad/
>

Did Pelosi hide the meeting ?

Syrian President Bashar Assad meets on Wednesday, April 4, 2007 with U.S. House speaker Nancy Pelosi at Ash-Shaeb presidential palace in Damascus. Pelosi is the highest ranking US official to visit Syria since 2003 for talks on thestrained relations between Syria and the U.S., and to pass on a peace message from Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert.

>Vex, unfortunately most of the people on here just spout what
>they hear on the news and don't think for themselves.
>
>

Up above in another post you said " It amazes me that hip hop is supposed to be rooted in compassionate politics and love for the underdog but Bernie is so reviled on here."

saying that "most of the people on here just spout what
>they hear on the news and don't think for themselves" is not going help move people over to Bernie. Someone said Bernie supporters are the problem, your comments prove it.

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Vex_id
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Fri Aug-16-19 01:18 PM

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176. "RE: It shows poor leadership to meet leaders of another country?"
In response to Reply # 160


  

          


>Right, and I guess this isn't Nancy Pelosi in this pic with
>Assad?
>https://www.denverpost.com/2007/04/04/pelosi-meets-with-syrias-assad/
>
>Vex, unfortunately most of the people on here just spout what
>they hear on the news and don't think for themselves.

You're new here (i think) - so get ready for a lot more of that.


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Stadiq
Member since Dec 21st 2005
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Fri Aug-16-19 11:44 AM

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166. "was Tulsi president? "
In response to Reply # 158
Fri Aug-16-19 11:46 AM by Stadiq

          

>What "secrecy" was attached to that meeting?
>
>I suppose you also joined the chorus of people criticizing
>Obama for saying he'd meet with Iran and other foreign
>"adversaries" in 2008?
>
>
>-->

She didn't say "hey, when I'm president I'll do xxxx".

Not exactly the same.


Not going to do the Tulsi dance with you again, but just wanted to point that out.


And obviously there is a lot of context surrounding the Tulsi situation that makes it get even more of the side eye. It didn't happen in a vacuum.

There's a lot of stuff people can't forgive her for of course- I think parroting Fox type attacks on Obama is one of several I'll never even understand much less forgive.


I don't get how you get past some of her rhetoric on refugees/"radical Islam" though, now that I know a little more about you personally. It blows me away how you get past that.

Her "non-interventionist" stance doesn't cancel that shit out. We are living though a hellish nightmare that is proving in real-time how much language matters.

Either way, Tulsi stans can't even have an honest conversation about her downside- they essentially yell fake news! (lol).

Its ironic that the debates I've had on Tulsi really remind me about debates I had with hardcore Hillary supporters in 15 and 16.

And lol at her clapping more at Kamala than Biden.

And nah its not that everyone is uninformed. You had me interested in her and I actually did the knowledge. I have seen this happen with several people. Not a good sign that when progressives do more research on a candidate they start to dislike them. I've never, ever seen someone do research on Tulsi and say "she's it!"

But...keep saying "fake news!" That should do it.

She'll be a Fox News contributor inside of 5 years. Watch.

  

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Vex_id
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Fri Aug-16-19 01:16 PM

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175. "No - and neither was Obama when he said it "
In response to Reply # 166


  

          

Obama was campaigning in 2008 at the time when he was being ostracized for saying he'd meet with Iran and other adversaries.

At that time, the right were the critics. Now, it's the left who are doing it to Tulsi - which is appropriate given the bi-partisan support in Congress for never-ending war.

Definitely not going to engage in a circular argument here. I don't agree with every single vote or position Tulsi has held (same goes for all other candidates).

The fact remains: She's the strongest candidate of any when it comes to understanding the disastrous foreign policy that has plagued both parties for the better part of the past half-century. The reason I defend her here is because the attacks on her character are really weak and poorly sourced/backed up with credible evidence. People are *still* citing a "New Knowledge" smear on her when it comes to Syria and Assad that has readily been debunked by Pulitzer journalists. That type of lazy analysis is never acceptable.


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Stadiq
Member since Dec 21st 2005
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Fri Aug-16-19 02:05 PM

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182. "My point was the false equivalency comparing what Obama"
In response to Reply # 175


          


said he would do *as president* and what Tulsi actually did as a rep.

The same way you compare Steven Bannon liking AOC's fight but hating her policies with Steven Bannon liking Tulsi's actual policies.

It comes off like you can't actually talk about what Tulsi has done/said/etc...so you have to distract or make it look like its no different than the other examples, when we all know it is.

Instead, you like to set up a false comparison or just say "fake news"!

Again, these were the same tactics used by Hillary supporters. In my experience.

>Obama was campaigning in 2008 at the time when he was being
>ostracized for saying he'd meet with Iran and other
>adversaries.
>
>At that time, the right were the critics. Now, it's the left
>who are doing it to Tulsi - which is appropriate given the
>bi-partisan support in Congress for never-ending war.
>
>Definitely not going to engage in a circular argument here. I
>don't agree with every single vote or position Tulsi has held
>(same goes for all other candidates).
>
>The fact remains: She's the strongest candidate of any when it
>comes to understanding the disastrous foreign policy that has
>plagued both parties for the better part of the past
>half-century. The reason I defend her here is because the
>attacks on her character are really weak and poorly
>sourced/backed up with credible evidence. People are *still*
>citing a "New Knowledge" smear on her when it comes to Syria
>and Assad that has readily been debunked by Pulitzer
>journalists. That type of lazy analysis is never acceptable.
>

But even when do people have credible criticism of her, you fight it similarly. Or just completely ignore it.

And even if the arguments are "really weak and poorly sourced" in your eyes, why the need to make false equivalencies, etc.

I am curious why you hold her in such high regard as being the strongest candidate who understands foreign policy. Is it her service? Didn't Pete serve? I'm honestly not being snarky here, you have said it a few times- I'm curious why her service counts more than others. Maybe I am missing something.

I'm not even saying I necessarily disagree with you/her on this specific issue in general. I am just curious why her take is the strongest to you- other than you agree with it.

Like if someone had a similar service record/experience said "yeah, the US needs to intervene sometimes"...does that argument hold as much weight to you?


Because, that also seems like a poor argument. Or at least not completely genuine. Trying to build her up as "the only one who understands" isn't really true.

Really, its just that you strongly agree with her take. Which is great- we all do that on every issue. That doesn't necessarily mean the candidates we agree with have hands down the strongest understanding.

In other words, "I strongly agree with her take" turns into "she has the strongest understanding" as a way to build her up.

I guess my point is, like I've said to you and I said to Hill stans- we get it. You like her. But a lot of people don't. And no, that isn't *all* from misinformation. Not everyone who dislikes her is mis-informed. There are legitimate reasons people don't like her. Its not all some conspiracy or smears. And you seem to give her a lot more slack than you do other candidates.

But, I know I'm repeating myself with you- my bad. I'd just ask to chill on assuming/accusing everyone of being uninformed.


  

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Vex_id
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184. "it's really not as hard as you're making it out to be."
In response to Reply # 182
Fri Aug-16-19 02:26 PM by Vex_id

  

          

Obama actually *did* meet with Iran and brokered the historic JCPOA in what was a brave and progressive new methodology of opening up diplomatic channels - even with adversaries and enemies. *Especially* with adversaries and enemies.

So it's actually very similar to what Tulsi has done with Assad in Syria. She met with him in an effort to avoid Iraq 3.0 (Libya was 2.0 and Obama cited that as his biggest regret/mistake while President).

So there is no false equivalency here. Perhaps you just don't want to see this for what it is and are reaching for straws as to why meeting with Assad is this unforgivable sin (still waiting for you to articulate that).

>I am curious why you hold her in such high regard as being the
>strongest candidate who understands foreign policy. Is it her
>service? Didn't Pete serve? I'm honestly not being snarky
>here, you have said it a few times- I'm curious why her
>service counts more than others. Maybe I am missing
>something.

This is pretty much a pointless exercise because nothing said about her is going to cause you to reflect any differently. But I'll reiterate the cliff notes version: It actually doesn't have much to do with her service. You throwing Pete in there shows that you probably haven't investigated foreign policy much (like most voters so I'm not saying that as a slight). Pete really has no cogent foreign policy and very few of the other candidates actually have gone into detail about how our foreign policy has squandered trillions from our treasury and wasted millions of lives - and how the regions we intervene in are demonstrably worse off after our involvement.

This is an issue that plagues both parties as there has been bi-partisan consensus approving these wars and bloated defense budgets. Tulsi's service is helpful - but what separates her from the pack is the nuanced understanding of how we are actually aiding terrorist groups like ISIS and Al-qaeda in Syria (right now) which is counter-productive to our purported mission there. Our foreign policy has been veiled and serves as a proxy support to both Saudi Arabia and Israel's influence in the region - not ours - and certainly not in the interest in peace. Tulsi is the only one with the nuance and guts to call it out for what it is. She actually called out Trump by saying "Stop being Saudi Arabia's bitch." I'd argue that most of the other candidates don't even know (or simply don't care) about how our foreign policy towards Iran is shaped by our biased and unsavory alliance with Saudi Arabia & Israel.

But sure - there are legitimate reasons why people don't favor one candidate over another - and clearly Tulsi has not garnered the kind of support that she had hoped for (though she has fared much better than most thought she would).

Clearly - you find her and Bernie to be unpalatable (which is fine) - and it's not about calling out people for their criticism. What I'm calling out is the slanted reporting and the recycling of smear pieces that have been proven to be propaganda (like the "New Knowledge" NBC smear piece that many are still citing this very day).

If you say: "I just can't deal with Tulsi's view as a high-schooler on gays when she was following her father's lunacy" -- cool, I get that.

But saying "Hard pass. She met with Assad."

Nah bruh, you're gonna have to actually articulate that with some sense if you don't want to be called out.






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Brew
Member since Nov 23rd 2002
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Fri Aug-16-19 05:53 PM

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207. "Not my conversation but this is a good point"
In response to Reply # 184


          

>I'd argue that most
>of the other candidates don't even know (or simply don't care)
>about how our foreign policy towards Iran is shaped by our
>biased and unsavory alliance with Saudi Arabia & Israel.

And I don't know nearly enough as I want to about this but the more I learn the more I understand just how detrimental these alliances/relationships are for us and the world at large.

----------------------------------------

"Fuck aliens." © WarriorPoet415

  

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Lurkmode
Member since May 07th 2011
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Fri Aug-16-19 11:50 AM

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168. "Yes it does when the leaders of her party didn't know she met Assad"
In response to Reply # 158


  

          

and she is not there in an official capacity.


>What "secrecy" was attached to that meeting?

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/jan/26/tulsi-gabbard-bashar-al-assad-syria-democrats

Pelosi told reporters on Wednesday that she had no knowledge of Gabbard’s unannounced trip, which drew scrutiny over who arranged and paid for the travel.

“She hasn’t reported or brought anything to our office as far as I know,” Pelosi said at a press conference held before Gabbard’s revelation about her meeting with Assad.



>
>I suppose you also joined the chorus of people criticizing
>Obama for saying he'd meet with Iran and other foreign
>"adversaries" in 2008?
>
>

No I didn't join the chorus, but if Obama said or suggested he would meet with foreign adversaries the way Tulsi did I would.

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Vex_id
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Fri Aug-16-19 01:20 PM

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177. "so you're mad that she didn't inform Nancy? lol"
In response to Reply # 168


  

          

The same Nancy who also met with Assad?

C'mon man - not like this.

>>I suppose you also joined the chorus of people criticizing
>>Obama for saying he'd meet with Iran and other foreign
>>"adversaries" in 2008?
>>
>>
>
>No I didn't join the chorus, but if Obama said or suggested he
>would meet with foreign adversaries the way Tulsi did I would.

So you don't really have anything to be critical about save for "the way" that Tulsi met with Assad? I thought we were going to get into substance here.

-->

  

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Lurkmode
Member since May 07th 2011
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Fri Aug-16-19 01:40 PM

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181. "More strawman ? "
In response to Reply # 177


  

          

>The same Nancy who also met with Assad?
>
>C'mon man - not like this.
>

This is what you call "substance" ?

>>>I suppose you also joined the chorus of people criticizing
>>>Obama for saying he'd meet with Iran and other foreign
>>>"adversaries" in 2008?
>>>
>>>
>>
>>No I didn't join the chorus, but if Obama said or suggested
>he
>>would meet with foreign adversaries the way Tulsi did I
>would.
>
>So you don't really have anything to be critical about save
>for "the way" that Tulsi met with Assad? I thought we were
>going to get into substance here.
>

Your defense(if you can call it that) is worst than I thought it would I be, spinning and avoiding, really ?

What did Tulsi meeting with Assad accomplish or gain ?

Do you agree with Rodman or Kushner meeting with foreign leaders ?

Do you have a problem with Tulsi giving red meat to Republicans ?

“It is sad and a shame and a disgrace,” Kinzinger told reporters at a Republican policy retreat in Philadelphia. “In no way should any member of Congress, should any government official, ever travel to meet with a guy that has killed 500,000 people and 50,000 children.”

Kinzinger called on leadership in both parties to condemn Gabbard’s trip and questioned how it was financed. But Kinzinger – like Gabbard, an Iraq war veteran – said he would need to know more to file an ethics complaint against his colleague.

“She has the audacity to say that everywhere she went people supported Assad,” Kinzinger said. “Of course, when you have an Assad-led tour, he’s only going to take you to places where people like him”.

Evan McMullin, a former independent candidate for president in the 2016 presidential election, asked on Twitter: “Why are so many of our leaders becoming stooges of foreign dictators and war criminals? @TulsiGabbard @realDonaldTrump This is America!”

Senator John McCain, who went to Syria in 2013 to meet opposition groups and was criticized by the Assad regime for doing so, reportedly said Gabbard’s visit “send the wrong signal”.

“It kind of legitimizes a guy who butchered 400,000 of his own people,” the senator from Arizona said.

The link and quotes from the article are full of substances, do you have anything to counter, pushback, refute what is stated in the Guardian article that I linked ?

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reaction
Member since Aug 09th 2019
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Fri Aug-16-19 02:11 PM

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183. "RE: More strawman ? "
In response to Reply # 181


          

My answer to this is that everything you think you know about Syria is a lie. One of the best writers on this topic has a plethora of well sourced articles at this link:

https://caucus99percent.com/content/archive-my-writings-syria-censored-medium

  

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Lurkmode
Member since May 07th 2011
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Fri Aug-16-19 06:25 PM

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214. "Bias"
In response to Reply # 183


  

          

>My answer to this is that everything you think you know about
>Syria is a lie. One of the best writers on this topic has a
>plethora of well sourced articles at this link:
>
>https://caucus99percent.com/content/archive-my-writings-syria-censored-medium
>


https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2016/07/bernie-sanders-endorsement-hillary-clinton-2016-holdouts-214041

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reaction
Member since Aug 09th 2019
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Fri Aug-16-19 08:50 PM

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219. "RE: Bias"
In response to Reply # 214


          

If you actually read the links I sent you I bet you couldn't refute the facts presented. However, I know it a huge ask to get people to research and realize we've been lied to about Syria, about Russiagate, about a whole myriad of things that most people don't legitimately have the time to delve into to find the truth. Defending Bernie is enough to keep me busy on here so those things I won't tackle since I know I'll get nothing but pushback. If any lurkers are truly interested I recommend the subreddit wayofthebern, probably the best group of independent thinkers on the internet.

  

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Lurkmode
Member since May 07th 2011
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Fri Aug-16-19 09:07 PM

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220. "RE: Bias"
In response to Reply # 219


  

          

>If you actually read the links I sent you I bet you couldn't
>refute the facts presented. However, I know it a huge ask to
>get people to research and realize we've been lied to about
>Syria, about Russiagate, about a whole myriad of things that
>most people don't legitimately have the time to delve into to
>find the truth. Defending Bernie is enough to keep me busy on
>here so those things I won't tackle since I know I'll get
>nothing but pushback. If any lurkers are truly interested I
>recommend the subreddit wayofthebern, probably the best group
>of independent thinkers on the internet.

I am reading the link. Might be a good idea to stop assuming and address more than one thing in the Guardian article.

This is from a source in the link you provided.

"And Syria is only a small part of the lies and distortions that the MSM have been forcing down our throats for years — with ever increasing intensity now that our fearless politicians, led by Bill Clinton, have allowed a handful of plutocratic interests to acquire ownership of virtually the whole MSM. We’ve been lied to about the coup in Kiev, the shooting down of MH-17, the annexation of Crimea, the genocide that Kaddafi’s troops were threatening in Libya, the non-existent Iranian nuclear weapons program, and of course every aspect of our current Russiagate frenzy. There is zero credible evidence that the Russian govt attempted to interfere in our election — which is how we can know that Trump’s associates did not “collude” with this interference, and why the unremitting witchhunt against Trump (whom I view as an absurd excuse for a President) has necessarily been rooted in overt lies and paranoid partisan fantasies."

See anything that raises red flags ?

Here is another

"Buckle up, because we’re about to be slammed with another tidal wave of mainstream media BS regarding Douma once the OPCW releases its report, which almost certainly will omit all evidence and analysis that contradicts the Deep State narrative."

You co-signing this ?


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reaction
Member since Aug 09th 2019
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Fri Aug-16-19 10:42 PM

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229. "RE: Bias"
In response to Reply # 220


          

>See anything that raises red flags ?

No. For example Bill Binney and VIPS have forensically shown that Russia could have never hacked the DNC and that it was most likely a leak not a hack. Recently footage of Ellen Ratner has surfaced with her corroborating this from Assange himself https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0M3Z4eE6cJA

Like I say I don't want to get in a fight about Assange etc. and Wikileaks who have a 100% track record of accurate publishing. I know all the smears. I just don't have time to argue it all from the ground up on here.


>"Buckle up, because we’re about to be slammed with another
>tidal wave of mainstream media BS regarding Douma once the
>OPCW releases its report, which almost certainly will omit all
>evidence and analysis that contradicts the Deep State
>narrative."
>
>You co-signing this ?

Yes, here is his essay after the final report https://caucus99percent.com/content/magic-hopping-cylinder-douma There is a Deep State if you want to call it that, Chuck Schumer even admits it here https://youtu.be/fotKK5kcMOg?t=33

You can mock me all you want and smear, I won't engage anymore on these topics but yes the mainstream media is not far from propaganda these days and https://www.reddit.com/r/WayOfTheBern/ is IMO one of the last places on the internet to read people that truly try to filter out the truth.

  

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Vex_id
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Fri Aug-16-19 02:32 PM

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185. "Yikes."
In response to Reply # 181
Fri Aug-16-19 02:42 PM by Vex_id

  

          

>“It is sad and a shame and a disgrace,” Kinzinger told
>reporters at a Republican policy retreat in Philadelphia.
>“In no way should any member of Congress, should any
>government official, ever travel to meet with a guy that has
>killed 500,000 people and 50,000 children.”

Did you call out Nancy for meeting with Assad? Do you call out our leaders for not just meeting with - but brokering billion dollar weapons deals with Saudi Arabia? They are killing thousands of Yemini children right now. No outrage for that? Just outrage for an actively serving veteran meeting with Assad in an effort to avoid another Iraq/Libya? K.

>“She has the audacity to say that everywhere she went people
>supported Assad,” Kinzinger said. “Of course, when you
>have an Assad-led tour, he’s only going to take you to
>places where people like him”.

Do you even know who Kinzinger is? He's an AIPAC errand boy who thinks that our entire foreign policy in the MidEast should be for the purpose of furthering Greater Israel and Netanyahu's apartheid, right-wing extremist regime.

That's the guy you're citing to back up your argument?

Yikes.

>Senator John McCain, who went to Syria in 2013 to meet
>opposition groups and was criticized by the Assad regime for
>doing so, reportedly said Gabbard’s visit “send the
>wrong signal”.

Now you're citing John McCain? Who sang "bomb, bomb, bomb Iran" when he ran for President and never met a war he didn't like?

Both McCain and Kinzinger were advocating *hard* for war in Syria. Is that what you're supporting? Why?

Thank god Obama didn't fall to the false-machismo pressure of "drawing the red line" because of his suspicions about the call to war with Syria after he acknowledged the absolute Clintonian disaster in Libya. Otherwise Syria would probably also be an open slave market right now run by ISIS.

In another world - we would've had leadership circa 2003 that would have met with Saddam Hussein instead of fabricating intelligence and lying to the American people in a rush to intervene.

Are you really out here riding for the NeoCon foreign policy world view?

This is actually an illustrative exercise on how many Democrats (which I assume you are) knowingly or unknowingly parrot the Bush/Cheney doctrine.



-->

  

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Lurkmode
Member since May 07th 2011
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Fri Aug-16-19 04:09 PM

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196. "Smh more spinning "
In response to Reply # 185


  

          


>
>Did you call out Nancy for meeting with Assad? Do you call
>out our leaders for not just meeting with - but brokering
>billion dollar weapons deals with Saudi Arabia? They are
>killing thousands of Yemini children right now. No outrage
>for that? Just outrage for an actively serving veteran
>meeting with Assad in an effort to avoid another Iraq/Libya?
>K.
>

Whether or not I call out Nancy for meeting with Assad, does not let Tulsi off the hook, what you are doing is called whataboutism. You can't accuse me and say "just outrage, for an actively serving veteran
meeting with Assad..." when I said I would join the chorus against Obama if wanted to meet with foreign adversaries the way Tulsi met with Assad.

No substance in your spinning.


>
>Do you even know who Kinzinger is? He's an AIPAC errand boy
>who thinks that our entire foreign policy in the MidEast
>should be for the purpose of furthering Greater Israel and
>Netanyahu's apartheid, right-wing extremist regime.
>
>That's the guy you're citing to back up your argument?
>
>Yikes.

No I'm not citing Kinzinger to back up my argument. I am using him and McCain from the article, as a example of the red meat Tulsi gave to Republicans by meeting with Assad. Did you read what Kinzinger said that she stated about her trip to Syria ?

>
>>Senator John McCain, who went to Syria in 2013 to meet
>>opposition groups and was criticized by the Assad regime for
>>doing so, reportedly said Gabbard’s visit “send the
>>wrong signal”.
>
>Now you're citing John McCain? Who sang "bomb, bomb, bomb
>Iran" when he ran for President and never met a war he didn't
>like?

I'm quoting the article.

>Both McCain and Kinzinger were advocating *hard* for war in
>Syria. Is that what you're supporting? Why?
>

No I have no idea where you came up with that theory. My last question before I pasted that part of the article is

Do you have a problem with Tulsi giving red meat to Republicans ?

McCain and Kinzinger fed off the red meat.

>Thank god Obama didn't fall to the false-machismo pressure of
>"drawing the red line" because of his suspicions about the
>call to war with Syria after he acknowledged the absolute
>Clintonian disaster in Libya. Otherwise Syria would probably
>also be an open slave market right now run by ISIS.

Obama didn't do what Tulsi did so it's no comparison.

>In another world - we would've had leadership circa 2003 that
>would have met with Saddam Hussein instead of fabricating
>intelligence and lying to the American people in a rush to
>intervene.
>

So you think it was a good idea when Donald Rumsfeld met with Saddam even though Saddam attacked his own people with chemicals ?

>Are you really out here riding for the NeoCon foreign policy
>world view?
>

Nah that's just spin that you use to avoid the questions I asked. It's the same way you cherry picked the Tulsi Assad meeting that I mentioned as if I did not question Tulsi defending Biden or her vote against Syrian refugees.

>This is actually an illustrative exercise on how many
>Democrats (which I assume you are) knowingly or unknowingly
>parrot the Bush/Cheney doctrine.
>
>

You assume wrong I have criticized Obama, blue dog Dems, Schumer...etc
You are using whataboutism, and defending the candidate who met with Trump, tell me who is the real Republican parrot ?

Still no substance.

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Vex_id
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198. "Yea we can end this right here."
In response to Reply # 196


  

          

Someone who is citing Kinzinger and McCain as their authority points of reference on foreign policy is simply not going to grasp this topic.

-->

  

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Lurkmode
Member since May 07th 2011
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Fri Aug-16-19 05:11 PM

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201. "It never started"
In response to Reply # 198


  

          

Horrible points, you are not doing Tulsi or Bernie any favors.

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Vex_id
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Fri Aug-16-19 08:08 PM

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216. "Please, cite some more PNAC authorities for us."
In response to Reply # 201


  

          

I get that you're upset that Tulsi ruined Kamala's chances by bodying her in the second debate - but this is just sad.

-->

  

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Lurkmode
Member since May 07th 2011
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Fri Aug-16-19 09:23 PM

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222. "It didn't end ? Guardian is PNAC and Rumsfeld never met Saddam"
In response to Reply # 216


  

          

"In another world - we would've had leadership circa 2003 that would have met with Saddam Hussein instead of fabricating intelligence and lying to the American people in a rush to intervene."

Good point meeting with Saddam would have helped. lol

https://nsarchive2.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB82/handshake300.jpg DOH

>I get that you're upset that Tulsi ruined Kamala's chances by
>bodying her in the second debate - but this is just sad.
>
>-->

Now this is the substance you held back. I was all on board for Kamala coming from 4th place to win the whole thing. Couldn't get that past you. Tulsi made me so upset I posted a three line reply when somebody mentioned her. Kamala will never rise above Tulsi in the polls now.

Substance

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Vex_id
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Fri Aug-16-19 09:59 PM

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225. "yea that's deep. "
In response to Reply # 222


  

          


-->

  

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Lurkmode
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Fri Aug-16-19 10:07 PM

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226. "Substance"
In response to Reply # 225


  

          


"Clinton support collapsing among non-white voters"

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navajo joe
Member since Apr 13th 2005
5365 posts
Fri Aug-16-19 09:58 AM

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156. "Hard Pass"
In response to Reply # 122


  

          

Anyone supporting the 'mommy president' gets the side eye. She's trash.

"Things aren't looking too good for black people right now PR-wise"
Tracy Morgan

"The way that you control a motherfucker that ain't don't nothing is you give them something. Then you hold it over their heads."
Patrice O'Neal

  

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Reeq
Member since Mar 11th 2013
6958 posts
Wed Aug-14-19 02:54 PM

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129. "elizabeth warren economic expertise in 2 acts:"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

3 weeks ago:
https://www.cnbc.com/2019/07/22/elizabeth-warrens-recession-scare-is-long-on-fear-short-on-facts.html?__source=sharebar|twitter&par=sharebar

today:
https://www.cnbc.com/2019/08/14/stock-markets-wall-street-in-focus-amid-earnings-economic-data.html
https://www.cnbc.com/2019/08/13/us-bonds-yield-curve-at-flattest-level-since-2007-amid-risk-off-sentiment.html

deja vu?
https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2019/apr/30/elizabeth-warren/elizabeth-warren-says-she-warned-about-financial-c/

seriously if we hit a recession soon...her stock goes up even higher. she got the receipts and the online/cable financial pundit class got embarassed (again).

------

  

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Reeq
Member since Mar 11th 2013
6958 posts
Wed Aug-14-19 10:01 PM

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149. "hickenlooper out."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

https://twitter.com/kylegriffin1/status/1161833772972761089

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Brew
Member since Nov 23rd 2002
17677 posts
Thu Aug-15-19 09:08 AM

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152. "Good. The bottom half should follow suit."
In response to Reply # 149


          

Go run for senate seats.

----------------------------------------

"Fuck aliens." © WarriorPoet415

  

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mista k5
Member since Feb 01st 2006
10256 posts
Fri Aug-16-19 11:22 AM

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163. "whos next?"
In response to Reply # 149


  

          

  

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reaction
Member since Aug 09th 2019
28 posts
Thu Aug-15-19 10:50 AM

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154. "Cardi B Bernie full discussion out"
In response to Reply # 0


          

https://twitter.com/BernieSanders/status/1162027721083576320

  

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poetx
Charter member
57927 posts
Thu Aug-15-19 07:27 PM

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155. "green, ay day all day. and not even close. "
In response to Reply # 0


  

          


peace & blessings,

x.

www.twitter.com/poetx

=========================================
I'm an advocate for working smarter, not harder. If you just
focus on working hard you end up making someone else rich and
not having much to show for it. (c) mad

  

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Reeq
Member since Mar 11th 2013
6958 posts
Fri Aug-16-19 10:50 AM

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159. "biden team thinking about scaling back public appearances"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

to minimize gaffes.
https://twitter.com/thehill/status/1161943135422992385

lol @ the biden team denying this story
https://twitter.com/RonaldKlain/status/1162200345570922496

'how dare you suggest we are thinking about using the same exact strategy we used when we launched this campaign!'.

could you imagine one of the women candidates running a *presidential campaign* by rolling themselves bubble wrap and being quarantined away from places where people might actually hear them?

dude is easily 10x worse than hillary clinton but doesnt get covered as such.

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Stadiq
Member since Dec 21st 2005
3339 posts
Fri Aug-16-19 11:27 AM

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164. "yup"
In response to Reply # 159


          

>to minimize gaffes.
>https://twitter.com/thehill/status/1161943135422992385
>
>lol @ the biden team denying this story
>https://twitter.com/RonaldKlain/status/1162200345570922496
>
>'how dare you suggest we are thinking about using the same
>exact strategy we used when we launched this campaign!'.
>
>could you imagine one of the women candidates running a
>*presidential campaign* by rolling themselves bubble wrap and
>being quarantined away from places where people might actually
>hear them?
>
>dude is easily 10x worse than hillary clinton but doesnt get
>covered as such.
>
>

Really glad to see you come around these last several months lol. He is absolutely worse.


But on a serious note, whats their end game then? Whats his?

I get that it takes ego/vanity to run for president no matter the candidate. I get it.

But damn, as serious as things are...and this guy can't put three days together without fucking something up...not to mention he is really showing his age...

Fucking bow out.

One of the knocks on Hillary was she didn't campaign enough. How is Biden going to put in that work in the general- visiting swing states, etc- if the plan is to fucking hide him?

I can't help but think specifically of Symone Sanders...what is she thinking?

  

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Brew
Member since Nov 23rd 2002
17677 posts
Fri Aug-16-19 11:42 AM

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165. "Yea I mean this is wild, he's clearly slipping, but ..."
In response to Reply # 164


          

... it'd be awfully fucking strange for the frontrunner to bow out, absent some family crisis or major health complications or something. Haha. Know what I mean. At this point he's gotta see it thru at least until he starts plummeting in the polls (which won't happen).

----------------------------------------

"Fuck aliens." © WarriorPoet415

  

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Stadiq
Member since Dec 21st 2005
3339 posts
Fri Aug-16-19 11:49 AM

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167. "fake a health issue"
In response to Reply # 165


          


and endorse someone.


I know it won't happen. But that is what is so interesting about the ego involved in it all.


Hell, I think there is an ego-driven argument to make though. Does Biden really want his legacy to be the guy who had to hide out in his final presidential election and lost to Donald fucking Trump?

lol feel me?


But instead its "this dude is going to fuck it up if he actually campaigns, so lets limit that"

huh?

  

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Reeq
Member since Mar 11th 2013
6958 posts
Fri Aug-16-19 03:18 PM

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192. "seriously just hire somebody to shoot yourself."
In response to Reply # 167


  

          

be a sympathetic victim, rally the dem base (and america) against gun violence, and take the perfect opportunity to gracefully bow your old ass out of the race lol.

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Brew
Member since Nov 23rd 2002
17677 posts
Fri Aug-16-19 06:01 PM

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208. "YIIIIKES lol"
In response to Reply # 192


          

>be a sympathetic victim, rally the dem base (and america)
>against gun violence, and take the perfect opportunity to
>gracefully bow your old ass out of the race lol.

----------------------------------------

"Fuck aliens." © WarriorPoet415

  

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Reeq
Member since Mar 11th 2013
6958 posts
Fri Aug-16-19 02:35 PM

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186. "pure entitlement imo."
In response to Reply # 164


  

          

>But on a serious note, whats their end game then? Whats his?

he seems to be content just protecting his lead by remaining invisible long enough to barely get over the finish line.

this is why surrogates from other campaigns (especially the womens) needs to be out there nonstop killing the 'electability' argument.

and even tho hillary was entitled...at least she went out and worked for it and some semblance of a vision for the country. biden doesnt even have a vision for his own party outside of 'republicans have gotten a bad rap and we should be holding hands with them.


>I can't help but think specifically of Symone Sanders...what
>is she thinking?

fam everybody is asking this. i feel so bad for her. she was one of my favorite people in the world. seeing her on twitter attempting to pour syrup on these biden turd nuggets is painful to watch.

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Stadiq
Member since Dec 21st 2005
3339 posts
Fri Aug-16-19 03:18 PM

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193. "RE: pure entitlement imo."
In response to Reply # 186


          

>>But on a serious note, whats their end game then? Whats
>his?
>
>he seems to be content just protecting his lead by remaining
>invisible long enough to barely get over the finish line.

Right, but only to lose the general? I mean, if you're going to run for President you have to campaign at some point.

>
>this is why surrogates from other campaigns (especially the
>womens) needs to be out there nonstop killing the
>'electability' argument.

Agree 100%.

Very anxious for the next debate.


>
>and even tho hillary was entitled...at least she went out and
>worked for it and some semblance of a vision for the country.
>biden doesnt even have a vision for his own party outside of
>'republicans have gotten a bad rap and we should be holding
>hands with them.


LOL yep.

>
>
>>I can't help but think specifically of Symone Sanders...what
>>is she thinking?
>
>fam everybody is asking this. i feel so bad for her. she was
>one of my favorite people in the world. seeing her on twitter
>attempting to pour syrup on these biden turd nuggets is
>painful to watch.
>

LOL exactly.

  

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Reeq
Member since Mar 11th 2013
6958 posts
Fri Aug-16-19 02:47 PM

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187. "obama or biden folks now leaking obama warned biden not to run"
In response to Reply # 159


  

          

and met with this staff to tell them to do all they could do to help biden not fuck up his legacy lol.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/obama-reportedly-warned-biden-about-2020-you-dont-have-to-do-this-joe

i wonder if this is coming from obama allies or inside bidens staff. either way it sounds like a polite way to either distance obama from this mess while still portraying him as caring/compassionate...or paint biden as stubborn and foolhardy to send a message to him that he aint getting the message.

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Stadiq
Member since Dec 21st 2005
3339 posts
Fri Aug-16-19 03:15 PM

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191. "not surprised if true..."
In response to Reply # 187


          


"Biden asked Obama not to endorse him" was always L O L


Can't remember where I saw the joke, but " and I asked Rihanna not to text me"

  

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Reeq
Member since Mar 11th 2013
6958 posts
Fri Aug-16-19 03:27 PM

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195. "i seen somebody say joe biden got worse takes than joe budden."
In response to Reply # 191
Fri Aug-16-19 03:30 PM by Reeq

  

          

lol.

speaking of rihanna...even she came for biden lol.
https://twitter.com/Complex/status/1159967474038845440

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Vex_id
Charter member
63209 posts
Fri Aug-16-19 08:30 PM

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218. "LOL. "
In response to Reply # 195


  

          


-->

  

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naame
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20606 posts
Fri Aug-16-19 10:55 AM

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162. "everyday on social media is 2016 "
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

politics stopped when trump became president and republicans took the house and senate

America has imported more warlord theocracy from Afghanistan than it has exported democracy.

  

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Reeq
Member since Mar 11th 2013
6958 posts
Fri Aug-16-19 03:15 PM

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190. "beto reboots presidential campaign (for the 3rd time)."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

https://twitter.com/Reuters/status/1162285366369558528

smh just run for senate dude.

oh wait...he shut that down too
https://twitter.com/MSNBC/status/1162191120044105728


yeah i hate to admit it but i think one of our brightest stars might have blown his entire political career.

i actually wanted him to run for prez but that was clearly a mistake.

dude could be flooding texas (again) with money and enthusiasm as a senate candidate with higher (and overwhelmingly positive) name recognition with a much more favorable electorate in 2020...instead of treating his prez campaign like the terminator franchise.

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mista k5
Member since Feb 01st 2006
10256 posts
Fri Aug-16-19 04:18 PM

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197. "if he doesnt have a big rebound with the third debate he has to go"
In response to Reply # 190


  

          

since he already qualified i dont see him dropping out before then.

gotta take his no on the senate with a grain of salt. he said the same thing about running for president right?

im guessing in his head hes thinking once more moderates drop out his numbers will go up.

if biden drops out who does the establishment and moderates back?

to be clear i dont see beto gaining traction and i am hoping to see him drop out sooner rather than later. i appreciate what he has done and he could find some other ways to contribute but he has no chance anymore.

  

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Reeq
Member since Mar 11th 2013
6958 posts
Fri Aug-16-19 05:01 PM

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200. "betos fundraising dropped off a cliff in the 2nd qtr too."
In response to Reply # 197


  

          

https://twitter.com/nytimes/status/1150955756461707266
---
Beto O’Rourke, who had entered the race with the promise of being a financial powerhouse, raised only a fraction of the front-runners: $3.6 million
---

to put that in perspective...p booty raised almost *8x* that.
https://twitter.com/jaketapper/status/1145661313634508801
---
Pete Buttigieg seizes on top-tier status by raising $24.8 million in second quarter - CNNPolitics
---

that shows how much voter/donor enthusiasm has left the beto campaign.



>im guessing in his head hes thinking once more moderates drop
>out his numbers will go up.


oddly enough...i dont think moderates really view him as moderate. and progressives (now) dont view him as progressive. hence his standing.



>since he already qualified i dont see him dropping out before
>then.
>
>gotta take his no on the senate with a grain of salt. he said
>the same thing about running for president right?

true. the longer he waits to eventually flip flop could hurt him tho. especially if the party/voters are getting behind the other senate candidates like mj hegar. beto trying to ride back into a senate race on a horse could look like more of that 'white male audacity' shit thats been haunting him.


>if biden drops out who does the establishment and moderates
>back?

prolly between harris and p booty. we really gotta stop using terms like 'the establishment' tho. liz warren is closing in on biden and gobbling up endorsements who see her more and more as a winning horse. you dont do that without appealing to the mainstream dem party (voters and politicians). thats 'the establishment'.

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mista k5
Member since Feb 01st 2006
10256 posts
Fri Aug-16-19 05:23 PM

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203. "yeah wasnt sure how to refer to blind biden supporters"
In response to Reply # 200


  

          

there is definitely a bloc in the formal democratic party and democratic voters that are hanging on to biden right now. i have to imagine and hope he will drop out soon. people that support him now, where would they gravitate to? it wont be a monolith but i would imagine over 60% would move together.

i do agree that warren is already eating some of bidens support. i would think thats more so the people that were team biden only because they saw him as the most electable but were really on the progressive side to begin with. now that they see warren is gaining traction they feel safer going with her.

pete seems like a safe choice for biden voters to move to but at the same time he is pretty progressive on issues, a step below warren in some ways. he just has a way to say it that appeals to more moderate voters.

i dont know what beto's signature issue is anymore. it seemed he was going to go full blown pro immigrants but castro threw him off that. if what you care most about is immigration rights and reversing trumps policies on that then castro would be the one to go with.

i like betos passion and his response after the shooting but i dont want to see him pivot to that being his main issue. his best hope is to bring that same passion on everything he cares about but how he gets a spotlight doing so i dont know. i think his potential voters have already picked someone else. im really not sure i want him to do the senate run anymore. maybe he gets a chance at vp or a cabinet position but i think he needs back off running a campaign for this election cycle at least.

  

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Reeq
Member since Mar 11th 2013
6958 posts
Fri Aug-16-19 06:02 PM

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209. "warren clearly has the *heart* of dem voters."
In response to Reply # 203


  

          

>i do agree that warren is already eating some of bidens
>support. i would think thats more so the people that were team
>biden only because they saw him as the most electable but were
>really on the progressive side to begin with. now that they
>see warren is gaining traction they feel safer going with
>her.

i dont have the polls on hand (i may have posted em in here or another post already) but warren is the clear favorite when people are asked who they would vote for based on the issues (biden comes out in front when they factor in who they think can win).

warren also has advantage when people are asked who is their 1st *and* 2nd choice.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D9FVexpXUAA-y0T.jpg

>pete seems like a safe choice for biden voters to move to but
>at the same time he is pretty progressive on issues, a step
>below warren in some ways. he just has a way to say it that
>appeals to more moderate voters.

i just looked around and apparently the 2nd choice of biden voters routinely comes out as bernie (and vice versa).
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ECGeGyuXYAAVEg7.jpg

i think we underestimate how much of politics is culture over policy. a lot of voters went from gw bush to obama to trump. sherrod brown is more progressive than biden and still would command more of bidens base in the rust belt than most moderate candidates.


>i dont know what beto's signature issue is anymore. it seemed
>he was going to go full blown pro immigrants but castro threw
>him off that. if what you care most about is immigration
>rights and reversing trumps policies on that then castro would
>be the one to go with.

yeah that showed how much of a lightweight beto is up against seasoned vets who have taken this shit serious for years. dude just thought he could soapbox and charm his way to a nomination but just exposed himself against more qualified competition.

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Brew
Member since Nov 23rd 2002
17677 posts
Fri Aug-16-19 06:16 PM

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212. "Exactly right."
In response to Reply # 209


          

>yeah that showed how much of a lightweight beto is up against
>seasoned vets who have taken this shit serious for years.
>dude just thought he could soapbox and charm his way to a
>nomination but just exposed himself against more qualified
>competition.

----------------------------------------

"Fuck aliens." © WarriorPoet415

  

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Brew
Member since Nov 23rd 2002
17677 posts
Fri Aug-16-19 06:10 PM

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211. "Warren."
In response to Reply # 197
Fri Aug-16-19 06:12 PM by Brew

          

>if biden drops out who does the establishment and moderates
>back?

She's a "progressive" who still has the ear of the mainstream.

----------------------------------------

"Fuck aliens." © WarriorPoet415

  

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Mynoriti
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34135 posts
Fri Aug-16-19 04:36 PM

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199. "the Mark Sanchez of politics"
In response to Reply # 190


  

          

--------
http://ambitiondeficitdisorder.tumblr.com/

  

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Brew
Member since Nov 23rd 2002
17677 posts
Fri Aug-16-19 06:17 PM

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213. "What's his butt fumble equivalent tho"
In response to Reply # 199


          

----------------------------------------

"Fuck aliens." © WarriorPoet415

  

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Dr Claw
Member since Jun 25th 2003
129935 posts
Mon Aug-19-19 03:19 PM

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241. "he almost out here looking like Mike McMahon in the light, LOL"
In response to Reply # 199


  

          

  

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Mynoriti
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Mon Aug-19-19 02:49 PM

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238. "he looks good on headlines and says and tweets the right things"
In response to Reply # 190


  

          

but then you see him in real time and hes just.. unimpressive

--------
http://ambitiondeficitdisorder.tumblr.com/

  

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Reeq
Member since Mar 11th 2013
6958 posts
Fri Aug-16-19 05:25 PM

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204. "biden and warren in statistical tie in new national poll."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

https://pbs.twimg.com/card_img/1161780076926529537/JNnIvQyi.jpg
https://twitter.com/MSNBC/status/1162038246404177920
-----
2020 Candidates Joe Biden and Elizabeth Warren are in a statistical tie according to the latest Economist/YouGov poll.
@Hardball talks about what might have changed those numbers.
https://pbs.twimg.com/card_img/1161780076926529537/JNnIvQyi.jpg
-----

babygirl killing it lately. she gotta start making some inroads with black voters tho.

------

  

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