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Subject: "My great grandfather the Nigerian slave trader (link The New Yorker)" Previous topic | Next topic
Musa
Member since Mar 08th 2006
15789 posts
Tue Jul-17-18 07:36 AM

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"My great grandfather the Nigerian slave trader (link The New Yorker)"
Tue Jul-17-18 07:37 AM by Musa

  

          

Anyone read this article? I have been researching this heavy for the last few months and this story is more common than not.

Side note I many side eyed certain groups that seemed to flock to the UK and US from Africa because many of times I made the association of either political connections, finances or some kind of collaboration with colonial rulers.

Also interesting note historians estimate Virginia had the largest Igbo population (40%) of the 13 colonies mainly due to their inability to keep them enslaved aka rebellions.

Also INTERESTING TO NOTE RIGHT AFTER THE AMERICAN WAR FOR INDEPENDENCE THE RATE OF AFRICANS BEING SHIPPED TO THE US GREW EXPONENTIALLY due to the deregulation of the trade in Britain allowing everyone to get in on the trade.


My Great-Grandfather, the Nigerian Slave-Trader
By Adaobi Tricia NwaubaniJuly 15, 2018

Illustration by Angelica Alzona
My parents’ home, in Umujieze, Nigeria, stands on a hilly plot that has been in our family for more than a hundred years. Traditionally, the Igbo people bury their dead among the living, and the ideal resting place for a man and his wives is on the premises of their home. My grandfather Erasmus, the first black manager of a Bata shoe factory in Aba, is buried under what is now the visitors’ living room. My grandmother Helen, who helped establish a local church, is buried near the study. My umbilical cord is buried on the grounds, as are those of my four siblings. My eldest brother, Nnamdi, was born while my parents were studying in England, in the early nineteen-seventies; my father, Chukwuma, preserved the dried umbilical cord and, eighteen months later, brought it home to bury it by the front gate. Down the hill, near the river, in an area now overrun by bush, is the grave of my most celebrated ancestor: my great-grandfather Nwaubani Ogogo Oriaku. Nwaubani Ogogo was a slave trader who gained power and wealth by selling other Africans across the Atlantic. “He was a renowned trader,” my father told me proudly. “He dealt in palm produce and human beings.”

Long before Europeans arrived, Igbos enslaved other Igbos as punishment for crimes, for the payment of debts, and as prisoners of war. The practice differed from slavery in the Americas: slaves were permitted to move freely in their communities and to own property, but they were also sometimes sacrificed in religious ceremonies or buried alive with their masters to serve them in the next life. When the transatlantic trade began, in the fifteenth century, the demand for slaves spiked. Igbo traders began kidnapping people from distant villages. Sometimes a family would sell off a disgraced relative, a practice that Ijoma Okoro, a professor of Igbo history at the University of Nigeria, Nsukka, likens to the shipping of British convicts to the penal colonies in Australia: “People would say, ‘Let them go. I don’t want to see them again.’ ” Between the fifteenth and nineteenth centuries, nearly one and a half million Igbo slaves were sent across the Middle Passage.

My great-grandfather was given the nickname Nwaubani, which means “from the Bonny port region,” because he had the bright skin and healthy appearance associated at the time with people who lived near the coast and had access to rich foreign foods. (This became our family name.) In the late nineteenth century, he carried a slave-trading license from the Royal Niger Company, an English corporation that ruled southern Nigeria. His agents captured slaves across the region and passed them to middlemen, who brought them to the ports of Bonny and Calabar and sold them to white merchants. Slavery had already been abolished in the United States and the United Kingdom, but his slaves were legally shipped to Cuba and Brazil. To win his favor, local leaders gave him their daughters in marriage. (By his death, he had dozens of wives.) His influence drew the attention of colonial officials, who appointed him chief of Umujieze and several other towns. He presided over court cases and set up churches and schools. He built a guesthouse on the land where my parents’ home now stands, and hosted British dignitaries. To inform him of their impending arrival and verify their identities, guests sent him envelopes containing locks of their Caucasian hair.

Funeral rites for a distinguished Igbo man traditionally include the slaying of livestock—usually as many cows as his family can afford. Nwaubani Ogogo was so esteemed that, when he died, a leopard was killed, and six slaves were buried alive with him. My family inherited his canvas shoes, which he wore at a time when few Nigerians owned footwear, and the chains of his slaves, which were so heavy that, as a child, my father could hardly lift them. Throughout my upbringing, my relatives gleefully recounted Nwaubani Ogogo’s exploits. When I was about eight, my father took me to see the row of ugba trees where Nwaubani Ogogo kept his slaves chained up. In the nineteen-sixties, a family friend who taught history at a university in the U.K. saw Nwaubani Ogogo’s name mentioned in a textbook about the slave trade. Even my cousins who lived abroad learned that we had made it into the history books.

Last year, I travelled from Abuja, where I live, to Umujieze for my parents’ forty-sixth wedding anniversary. My father is the oldest man in his generation and the head of our extended family. One morning, a man arrived at our gate from a distant Anglican church that was celebrating its centenary. Its records showed that Nwaubani Ogogo had given an armed escort to the first missionaries in the region—a trio known as the Cookey brothers—to insure their safety. The man invited my father to receive an award for Nwaubani Ogogo’s work spreading the gospel. After the man left, my father sat in his favorite armchair, among a group of his grandchildren, and told stories about Nwaubani Ogogo.

“Are you not ashamed of what he did?” I asked.

“I can never be ashamed of him,” he said, irritated. “Why should I be? His business was legitimate at the time. He was respected by everyone around.” My father is a lawyer and a human-rights activist who has spent much of his life challenging government abuses in southeast Nigeria. He sometimes had to flee our home to avoid being arrested. But his pride in his family was unwavering. “Not everyone could summon the courage to be a slave trader,” he said. “You had to have some boldness in you.”

My father succeeded in transmitting to me not just Nwaubani Ogogo’s stories but also pride in his life. During my school days, if a friend asked the meaning of my surname, I gave her a narrative instead of a translation. But, in the past decade, I’ve felt a growing sense of unease. African intellectuals tend to blame the West for the slave trade, but I knew that white traders couldn’t have loaded their ships without help from Africans like my great-grandfather. I read arguments for paying reparations to the descendants of American slaves and wondered whether someone might soon expect my family to contribute. Other members of my generation felt similarly unsettled. My cousin Chidi, who grew up in England, was twelve years old when he visited Nigeria and asked our uncle the meaning of our surname. He was shocked to learn our family’s history, and has been reluctant to share it with his British friends. My cousin Chioma, a doctor in Lagos, told me that she feels anguished when she watches movies about slavery. “I cry and cry and ask God to forgive our ancestors,” she said.

The British tried to end slavery among the Igbo in the early nineteen-hundreds, though the practice persisted into the nineteen-forties. In the early years of abolition, by British recommendation, masters adopted their freed slaves into their extended families. One of the slaves who joined my family was Nwaokonkwo, a convicted murderer from another village who chose slavery as an alternative to capital punishment and eventually became Nwaubani Ogogo’s most trusted manservant. In the nineteen-forties, after my great-grandfather was long dead, Nwaokonkwo was accused of attempting to poison his heir, Igbokwe, in order to steal a plot of land. My family sentenced him to banishment from the village. When he heard the verdict, he ran down the hill, flung himself on Nwaubani Ogogo’s grave, and wept, saying that my family had once given him refuge and was now casting him out. Eventually, my ancestors allowed him to remain, but instructed all their freed slaves to drop our surname and choose new names. “If they had been behaving better, they would have been accepted,” my father said.

VIDEO FROM THE NEW YORKER
Lies and Truth in the Era of Trump

The descendants of freed slaves in southern Nigeria, called ohu, still face significant stigma. Igbo culture forbids them from marrying freeborn people, and denies them traditional leadership titles such as Eze and Ozo. (The osu, an untouchable caste descended from slaves who served at shrines, face even more severe persecution.) My father considers the ohu in our family a thorn in our side, constantly in opposition to our decisions. In the nineteen-eighties, during a land dispute with another family, two ohu families testified against us in court. “They hate us,” my father said. “No matter how much money they have, they still have a slave mentality.” My friend Ugo, whose family had a similar disagreement with its ohu members, told me, “The dissension is coming from all these people with borrowed blood.”

I first became aware of the ohu when I attended boarding school in Owerri. I was interested to discover that another new student’s family came from Umujieze, though she told me that they hardly ever visited home. It seemed, from our conversations, that we might be related—not an unusual discovery in a large family, but exciting nonetheless. When my parents came to visit, I told them about the girl. My father quietly informed me that we were not blood relatives. She was ohu, the granddaughter of Nwaokonkwo.

I’m not sure if this revelation meant much to me at the time. The girl and I remained friendly, though we rarely spoke again about our family. But, in 2000, another friend, named Ugonna, was forbidden from marrying a man she had dated for years because her family found out that he was osu. Afterward, an osu friend named Nonye told me that growing up knowing that her ancestors were slaves was “sort of like having the bogeyman around.” Recently, I spoke to Nwannennaya, a thirty-nine-year-old ohu member of my family. “The way you people behave is as if we are inferior,” she said. Her parents kept their ohu ancestry secret from her until she was seventeen. Although our families were neighbors, she and I rarely interacted. “There was a day you saw me and asked me why I was bleaching my skin,” she said. “I was very happy because you spoke to me. I went to my mother and told her. You and I are sisters. That is how sisters are supposed to behave.”

Modernization is emboldening ohu and freeborn to intermarry, despite the threat of ostracization. “I know communities where people of slave descent have become affluent and have started demanding the right to hold positions,” Professor Okoro told me. “It is creating conflict in many communities.” Last year, in a town in Enugu State, an ohu man was appointed to a traditional leadership position, sparking mass protests. In a nearby village, an ohu man became the top police officer, giving the local ohu enough influence to push for reform. Eventually, they were apportioned a separate section of the community, where they can live according to whatever laws they please, away from the freeborn. “It will probably be a long time before all traces of slavery disappear from the minds of the people,” G. T. Basden, a British missionary, wrote of the Igbo in 1921. “Until the conscience of the people functions, the distinctions between slave and free-born will be maintained.”

Nwaubani Ogogo was believed to have acquired spiritual powers from the shrine of a deity named Njoku, which allowed him to wield influence over white colonists. Among his possessions, which are passed down to the head of the family, was the symbol of his alliance with Njoku: a pot containing a human head. “You had to cut the head straight into the pot while the person was still alive, without it touching the floor,” my father said. “It couldn’t just be anybody’s head. It had to be someone you knew.” In Nwaubani Ogogo’s case, this someone was most likely a slave. When Gilbert, my great-uncle and a previous head of our family, died in 1989, his second wife, Nnenna, a devout Christian, destroyed the pot. Shortly afterward, her children began to die mysterious deaths, one after another. Nnenna contracted a strange ailment and died in 2009. Some relatives began to fear that dark forces had been unleashed.

Last July, my father’s cousin Sunny, a professor of engineering, visited my parents to discuss another concern: a growing enmity in our family. Minor arguments had led relatives to stop speaking to one another. Several had become estranged from the family. “We always have one major disagreement or division or the other,” my father’s cousin Samuel told me. My cousin Ezeugo was not surprised by the worrying trend. “Across Igbo land, wherever there was slave trade with the white people, things never go well,” he said. “They always have problems there. Everybody has noticed it.” My relatives thought that our family’s history was coming back to haunt us.

Prior to colonization, the Igbo believed that spiritual forces controlled events. If enough misfortune piled up, a family might come to believe that it was the victim of an intergenerational curse resulting from the actions of an ancestor. Family members would seek out a juju priest, who would consult a deity, diagnose the root of the curse, and then expel it through a religious ritual. When foreign missionaries arrived, they persuaded the Igbos to embrace Christianity—openly, at least. But belief in ancestral curses has remained, cloaked in Bible passages that refer to God “visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation.” Many churches now offer services similar to the old rituals, in which a pastor replaces the juju priest and Jesus replaces the pagan god. This way, evil forces can be exposed without Christians engaging in idolatry. Deliverance usually requires a family to pray, fast, and renounce atrocities.

In 2009, the late priest Stephen Njoku wrote a book called “Challenge and Deal with Your Evil Foundations,” in which he argued that some people should change their names to rid themselves of curses. “It’s like building a house,” he told me. “If you don’t get the foundations right, if you used substandard materials or if the stones were not laid properly, the building will inevitably develop cracks and collapse.” A number of Igbo communities with names that extol gory histories have taken new ones. In 1992, people in my home town became concerned about several unexplained deaths of young people. After a period of communal prayer, people gathered in the village hall and voted to discard the community’s historic name, Umuojameze, which means “children of Ojam, the king.” Ojam was a deity whom the townspeople had worshipped before Christianization, and to whom they had made regular human sacrifices. They chose the new name, Umujieze, which means “children who hold the kingship,” to reflect our severance from the atrocities of the past.

My relatives disagreed about the cause of our family’s curse. Most believed that it was because of Nwaubani Ogogo’s slave trading. Some suspected that it was his broken alliance with Njoku. My father thought that it might have resulted from his human sacrifices. Sunny was not sure the family was cursed at all. “If our problems are because of the sins of our fathers, why are the white people making progress despite the sins of their fathers?” he said. Nevertheless, they agreed to hold a deliverance ceremony, and settled on a plan. On three days near the end of January, from 6 a.m. until noon, family members around the world would fast and pray. My father sent out a text message in preparation that included passages from the Bible. He has never been overtly religious, and it amused me to watch him organize a global prayer session. I teased him about the fact that he would have to skip breakfast, which was usually waiting for him at the same time each morning. “I’m a saint,” he declared.

On the first day of the fast, members of my family met in small groups in London, Atlanta, and Johannesburg. Some talked on the phone, and others chatted on social media. Thirty members gathered under a canopy in my parents’ yard. With tears in his eyes, my father explained that, in Nwaubani Ogogo’s day, selling and sacrificing human beings was common practice, but that now we know it to be deeply offensive to God. He thanked God for the honor and prestige bestowed on our family through my great-grandfather, and asked God’s forgiveness for the atrocities he committed. We prayed over a passage that my father texted us from the Book of Psalms:

Who can understand his errors?
Cleanse me from secret faults.
Keep back Your servant also from presumptuous sins;
Let them not have dominion over me.
Then I shall be blameless,
And I shall be innocent of great transgression.

During the ceremony, I was overwhelmed with relief. My family was finally taking a step beyond whispering and worrying. Of course, nothing can undo the harm that Nwaubani Ogogo caused. And the ohu, who are not his direct descendants, were not invited to the ceremony; their mistreatment in the region continues. Still, it felt important for my family to publicly denounce its role in the slave trade. “Our family is taking responsibility,” my cousin Chidi, who joined from London, told me. Chioma, who took part in Atlanta, said, “We were trying to make peace and atone for what our ancestors did.”

On the final day, my relatives strolled along a recently tarred stretch of road to our local Anglican church. The church was established in 1904, on land that Nwaubani Ogogo donated. Inside, a priest presided over a two-hour prayer session. At the end, he pronounced blessings on us, and proclaimed a new beginning for the Nwaubani family. After the ceremony, my family members discussed making it a yearly ritual. “This sort of thing opens up the mercy of God,” my mother, Patricia, said. “People did all these evil things but they don’t talk about it. The more people confess and renounce their evil past, the more cleansing will come to the land.”

Adaobi Tricia Nwaubani’s second novel, “Buried Beneath the Baobab Tree,” will be published by HarperCollins in September.Read more »

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Topic Outline
Subject Author Message Date ID
Never trust a Nigerian, especially an Igbo - my father
Jul 17th 2018
1
Damn
Jul 17th 2018
6
RE: Damn
Jul 18th 2018
28
      I ask because
Jul 18th 2018
30
Can't be laying any bets on sketchy Nigerians. Sorry.
Jul 17th 2018
14
There are still 50,000 slaves in your father's country TODAY.
Jul 18th 2018
19
Slavery is no longer legal.
Jul 18th 2018
29
      yeah becuase people stop doing shit after it's outlawed
Jul 19th 2018
36
whew
Jul 18th 2018
22
yuck
Jul 17th 2018
2
It's not out of the ordinary. People were getting shipped
Jul 17th 2018
7
      shit
Jul 17th 2018
9
what an amazing series of reflections on redemption
Jul 17th 2018
3
This is a sentiment that I have seen
Jul 17th 2018
8
Caste system? Ok...
Jul 17th 2018
4
Welcome to the real pre-Colonial (West) Africa.
Jul 18th 2018
15
All humanity is shit.
Jul 17th 2018
5
I dont know
Jul 17th 2018
10
Nah, don't group me into that shit
Jul 17th 2018
11
right?
Jul 17th 2018
12
All humanity has to take the rap for this chick's grandfather?
Jul 17th 2018
13
How? This one's on Nigerians themselves.
Jul 19th 2018
35
      It's also on the British, Spanish/Cubans, and Brazilians.
Jul 23rd 2018
67
           And the Black Americans who went to Liberia & instituted Forced Labor
Jul 25th 2018
71
                reference was to this particular case in southern Nigeria.
Jul 25th 2018
74
Yvette Carnell did a wonderful program centering this piece
Jul 18th 2018
16
I like her show but to me some of her reasoning is faulty
Jul 18th 2018
17
      RE: I like her show but to me some of her reasoning is faulty
Jul 18th 2018
21
      African ancestry is not faulty per se they only trace mothers mothers mo...
Jul 18th 2018
23
           RE: African ancestry is not faulty per se they only trace mothers mother...
Jul 18th 2018
25
                Thank you for sharing I definitely will read that
Jul 18th 2018
26
      She responded to criticisms with another great episode...
Jul 20th 2018
38
           I made another reply to that video the history is not
Jul 20th 2018
39
                How often do you listen to her show?
Jul 21st 2018
45
                RE: How often do you listen to her show?
Jul 22nd 2018
53
                     RE: How often do you listen to her show?
Jul 22nd 2018
54
                Another important consideration, too, is how inter-colonizer
Jul 23rd 2018
55
                     Oh most definitely
Jul 23rd 2018
58
                          Right. Ya I agree.
Jul 23rd 2018
59
                               Wow word it makes sense especially since the Brits were pirates
Jul 23rd 2018
61
I think you are off on this one
Jul 18th 2018
18
I was not as specific as I could be
Jul 18th 2018
20
RE: I was not as specific as I could be
Jul 18th 2018
32
      Indeed
Jul 18th 2018
34
also going back several generations tends to inflate how common
Jul 18th 2018
31
      true
Jul 18th 2018
33
i think it's important to understand both the american/texan revolutions
Jul 18th 2018
24
I totally agree
Jul 18th 2018
27
My Kenyan friends told me to never trust Nigerians
Jul 20th 2018
37
Okay so you ain't gonna share the why
Jul 20th 2018
40
      Naw. exactopposite is probably Nigerian.
Jul 20th 2018
41
      my bad. I thought it was obvious based on the topic
Jul 20th 2018
42
           Ha all good
Jul 20th 2018
43
           So far, only Benin and Ghana apologized for their roles
Jul 21st 2018
44
                Ghana actually offering dual citizenship
Jul 21st 2018
47
           You should ask your Kenyan friends if they're aware Kenya,
Jul 21st 2018
49
                I tried to break this down
Jul 21st 2018
51
                Take it easy fam
Jul 23rd 2018
62
Its complicated but here's a start
Jul 21st 2018
46
GOOD LOOKING OUT
Jul 21st 2018
48
Fascinating read. Though I feel like I need a shower after
Jul 21st 2018
50
Ha no doubt
Jul 21st 2018
52
Post-Jack: does the timing of all this black-on-black slavery
Jul 23rd 2018
56
It is very interesting especially step up is going to
Jul 23rd 2018
57
What nations currently allow this?
Jul 23rd 2018
65
      Ghana
Jul 23rd 2018
66
           Is it via this "Right to Abode" program? (link)
Jul 25th 2018
72
                Not sure but it references Africans of the diaspora
Jul 25th 2018
73
yup. i also feel same way about black gender wars
Jul 23rd 2018
64
      I see what you mean. Though, I definitely see
Jul 23rd 2018
69
           I agree that it's real. I don't think it needs a special
Jul 24th 2018
70
I remember first reading about the osu in a Chinua Achebe book
Jul 23rd 2018
60
I know it is a classic
Jul 23rd 2018
63
RE: fuck your great grandfather the Nigerian slave trader
Jul 23rd 2018
68

isaaaa
Member since May 10th 2007
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Tue Jul-17-18 10:24 AM

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1. "Never trust a Nigerian, especially an Igbo - my father"
In response to Reply # 0


          


Anti-gentrification, cheap alcohol & trying to look pretty in our twilight posting years (c) Big Reg
http://Tupreme.com

  

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Musa
Member since Mar 08th 2006
15789 posts
Tue Jul-17-18 12:49 PM

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6. "Damn"
In response to Reply # 1


  

          

Do you know any Kaba(Sara) people?

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isaaaa
Member since May 10th 2007
30565 posts
Wed Jul-18-18 11:09 AM

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28. "RE: Damn"
In response to Reply # 6


          

That was an interesting inquiry, yes I do people from that group, many.


Anti-gentrification, cheap alcohol & trying to look pretty in our twilight posting years (c) Big Reg
http://Tupreme.com

  

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Musa
Member since Mar 08th 2006
15789 posts
Wed Jul-18-18 11:16 AM

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30. "I ask because "
In response to Reply # 28


  

          

they keep coming up in my dna test for affinity to ethnic groups AT THE TOP.

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40thStreetBlack
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Tue Jul-17-18 01:55 PM

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14. "Can't be laying any bets on sketchy Nigerians. Sorry. "
In response to Reply # 1


          

For me to invest in Nigerian stocks, gotta be Olajuwon levels of respectability. (c) COOLEHMAGAZINE

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dafriquan
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Wed Jul-18-18 09:39 AM

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19. "There are still 50,000 slaves in your father's country TODAY."
In response to Reply # 1
Wed Jul-18-18 09:43 AM by dafriquan

  

          

You should ask him about that. I'm pretty sure his father might have kept a few slaves as recently as the 70s.

Slavery remains deeply embedded in Niger society. It exists across the country, in rural and urban areas, and is practised predominantly by the Tuareg, Maure (Berber Arab) and Peule (also known as Pulaar, or Fulani) ethnic groups.

Some Hausa follow the "fifth wife" practice - a form of slavery (see below). The Hausa (both in Niger and Nigeria) are sold their "fifth wife" by Tuareg masters.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2008/oct/27/humanrights1

  

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isaaaa
Member since May 10th 2007
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Wed Jul-18-18 11:12 AM

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29. "Slavery is no longer legal."
In response to Reply # 19


          


Anti-gentrification, cheap alcohol & trying to look pretty in our twilight posting years (c) Big Reg
http://Tupreme.com

  

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Garhart Poppwell
Member since Nov 28th 2008
18115 posts
Thu Jul-19-18 02:52 PM

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36. "yeah becuase people stop doing shit after it's outlawed"
In response to Reply # 29


  

          

slavery in America continued 100 years after the Emancipation Proclamation, let's not be coy about this

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BrooklynWHAT
Member since Jun 15th 2007
85054 posts
Wed Jul-18-18 10:30 AM

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22. "whew"
In response to Reply # 1


  

          

<--- Big Baller World Order

  

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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
79545 posts
Tue Jul-17-18 10:49 AM

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2. "yuck"
In response to Reply # 0


          

what a terrible history for a family.

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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Musa
Member since Mar 08th 2006
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Tue Jul-17-18 12:49 PM

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7. "It's not out of the ordinary. People were getting shipped"
In response to Reply # 2


  

          

off for umbrellas...



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legsdiamond
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Tue Jul-17-18 12:51 PM

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9. "shit"
In response to Reply # 7


          

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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naame
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Tue Jul-17-18 11:20 AM

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3. "what an amazing series of reflections on redemption"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Pride goes before the fall seems to be the lesson. I'm not sure the father has exorcised his prideful ways in order to humbly attain forgiveness.

  

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Musa
Member since Mar 08th 2006
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Tue Jul-17-18 12:51 PM

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8. "This is a sentiment that I have seen "
In response to Reply # 3


  

          

more often than I'd like to say.

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flipnile
Member since Nov 05th 2003
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Tue Jul-17-18 11:21 AM

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4. "Caste system? Ok..."
In response to Reply # 0


          

  

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Shaun Tha Don
Member since Nov 19th 2005
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15. "Welcome to the real pre-Colonial (West) Africa."
In response to Reply # 4


          

Rest In Peace, Bad News Brown

  

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shamus
Member since Oct 18th 2004
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Tue Jul-17-18 11:41 AM

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5. "All humanity is shit."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

All of us. Every single one.

The faster Earth can rid herself of us, the better.


--
the untold want by life and land ne'er granted
now voyager sail thou forth to seek and find

  

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Musa
Member since Mar 08th 2006
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Tue Jul-17-18 01:39 PM

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10. "I dont know"
In response to Reply # 5


  

          

Seems to be specific groups.

<----

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flipnile
Member since Nov 05th 2003
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11. "Nah, don't group me into that shit"
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I'm good over over.

  

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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
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Tue Jul-17-18 01:48 PM

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12. "right? "
In response to Reply # 11


          

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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Teknontheou
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13. "All humanity has to take the rap for this chick's grandfather?"
In response to Reply # 5


  

          

  

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Shaun Tha Don
Member since Nov 19th 2005
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35. "How? This one's on Nigerians themselves."
In response to Reply # 5


          

Rest In Peace, Bad News Brown

  

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40thStreetBlack
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67. "It's also on the British, Spanish/Cubans, and Brazilians."
In response to Reply # 35


          

___________________

Mar-A-Lago delenda est

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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71. "And the Black Americans who went to Liberia & instituted Forced Labor"
In response to Reply # 67


  

          

there.


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

  

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40thStreetBlack
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74. "reference was to this particular case in southern Nigeria."
In response to Reply # 71


          

___________________

Mar-A-Lago delenda est

  

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Boogie Stimuli
Member since Sep 24th 2010
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Wed Jul-18-18 01:22 AM

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16. "Yvette Carnell did a wonderful program centering this piece"
In response to Reply # 0


          

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYJyLm1Ryd0&t=4s

~
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Musa
Member since Mar 08th 2006
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17. "I like her show but to me some of her reasoning is faulty"
In response to Reply # 16


  

          

I sent her a long email about the historical perspective. The Igbo situation was not the norm and in fact oddly enough a good number of Black folk in the USA are of Igbo ancestry.

I also broke down how there were a few empires and then ethnic conflicts or a free for all between many groups and the irony is that if you trace your ancestry you will most likely find African Americans or DOS as she likes to say are a mix of ethnic groups that were enemies on the continent for instance Mende vs Pula(Fula Fulani), Yoruba vs Hausa, Bamileke vs Kongo Ashanti vs Fanti, Edo vs Fon etc etc.

Some refused to participate like the Edo, like Mbundi(Queen Nzingha) etc etc.

Also looking up the main populations that comprise what now make up Blacks in the USA we are from specific regions where the British were sometimes coercing certain groups to fight with or be enslaved.

Also I finally point out the traitors within our own group in the USA who sold us out everytime if you look at slave revolts which were foiled because of snitches, those who were agents in all of our movements etc.

<----

Soundcloud.com/aquil84

(HIP HOP)
http://aquil.bandcamp.com

  

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double 0
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21. "RE: I like her show but to me some of her reasoning is faulty"
In response to Reply # 17


          

Question...

How are you tracing your ancestry to find this info out about warring tribes and all that?

Please don't say African Ancestry... cuz um yea their science been BS

Double 0
DJ/Producer/Artist
Producer in Kidz In The Hall
-------------------------------------------
twitter: @godouble0
IG: @godouble0
www.thinklikearapper.com

  

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Musa
Member since Mar 08th 2006
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23. "African ancestry is not faulty per se they only trace mothers mothers mo..."
In response to Reply # 21


  

          

and fathers fathers father.

But with that said I did Ancestry DNA took the raw data from the site and plugged it into several sites also knowing my own family history back to the plantation on my father's side which is in Virginia I have made some educated guesses with the DNA test results.

<----

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(HIP HOP)
http://aquil.bandcamp.com

  

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double 0
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25. "RE: African ancestry is not faulty per se they only trace mothers mother..."
In response to Reply # 23


          

hmmm

If you are bored you can read my brothers paper on it

https://thenewinquiry.com/selling-roots/

But yea having paperwork that far back def does help.

The tests are getting better (Ancestry & 23andMe) but the main issue is getting Africans (and South East Asians) to actually do the tests so that there is more data in the genetic pool to properly identify the sub groups.

Double 0
DJ/Producer/Artist
Producer in Kidz In The Hall
-------------------------------------------
twitter: @godouble0
IG: @godouble0
www.thinklikearapper.com

  

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Musa
Member since Mar 08th 2006
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26. "Thank you for sharing I definitely will read that"
In response to Reply # 25


  

          

and yes I understand they do not have ethnic groups to perfectly match in many instances so they go by proxy.

<----

Soundcloud.com/aquil84

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Boogie Stimuli
Member since Sep 24th 2010
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Fri Jul-20-18 01:04 AM

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38. "She responded to criticisms with another great episode..."
In response to Reply # 17


          

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xpS4KjxN9E

~
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Days like this I miss Sha Mecca

  

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Musa
Member since Mar 08th 2006
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39. "I made another reply to that video the history is not"
In response to Reply # 38
Fri Jul-20-18 08:09 AM by Musa

  

          

so cut and dry as victim and victimized.

What if your descendants were heavy in the slave trade and happened to be captured by a enemy ethnic group they were targeting? I can bet you 9 times out of 10 we as descendants of enslaved Africans being a walking embodiment of panafricanism (a mix of several ethnic groups) have lineage of at least one group complicit in the trade. How because there were wars between SEVERAL ETHNIC GROUPS and EMPIRES and the POWs were sold to Europeans. Igbo were selling their own and selling Yoruba, Yoruba were fighting against Fon and Fon were fighting everyone selling them because they had one of the strongest empires at the time. Kongo were fighting mbundi and Tikar(Bamoun Bamileke) Tikar were fighting fang Ashanti were fighting Fanti, Mende, Mende were fighting Fula , Bambara and Fula were righting Hausa and Edo and Igbo etc etc etc. Point being ethnic groups were fighting each other and the pows were sold to Europeans. It is not as cut and dry as we want to make it seem. Along with the ethnic division you had religious division and within the religion you had division Almoravids vs Wolof vs Soninke vs Fula vs Hausa who were all majority Islamic ethnic groups. Also lets not forget to mention a good number of Igbo were shipped to the USA mainly Virginia now were they sent by fellow Igbo or neighboring groups they were fighting against. The history is very muddy. I do agree we are a new people and should come up with a new definition for our collective identity in the USA but we cannot just make it seem like victim vs victimized. We also cannot blame these continental Africans for receiving benefits meant for us because Europeans or wights know exactly what they are doing its the same thing as hiring women and counting them as a double minority. We don't control these mediums and institutions which get to pick and choose who gets selected to be apart so maybe we should do like Elijah Muhammad said and accept our own be ourselves and do for self.

<----

Soundcloud.com/aquil84

(HIP HOP)
http://aquil.bandcamp.com

  

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Boogie Stimuli
Member since Sep 24th 2010
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Sat Jul-21-18 02:55 AM

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45. "How often do you listen to her show?"
In response to Reply # 39


          

I ask that b/c you end with "do for self" which she very often addresses and why it's sort of a futile philosophy without Black (DOS) politics, which could be considered the main point of her show (Black politics).
Sure it's

>so cut and dry as victim and victimized.
>I do agree we are
>a new people and should come up with a new definition for our
>collective identity in the USA but we cannot just make it seem
>like victim vs victimized.

If this is for the sake of accuracy, I can't be mad at that. At the same time tho, I don't think this will make a difference where ideologies are concerned. Meaning, Yvette is still going to feel exactly the same about us as a people and our politics, regardless of this corrected information. If the main point here is that she shouldn't limit her video to the information she used, I can see that point. It has to be noted that she was responded to a specific article from a woman whose slave-trading grandfather had zero remorse as well tho.


>We also cannot blame these
>continental Africans for receiving benefits meant for us


Hold up. I'm gonna say "blame" is the wrong word here. She points out that they indeed receive benefits meant for us. Who's to "blame" for that is a different story when you start talking politics. However, she does say that if they want to be allies to us, then they would advocate for US to receive what is meant for us... that you can't really call yourself an ally while taking that from us.



>because Europeans or wights know exactly what they are doing



Well that's a statement I generally agree with, regarding racism. I think Yvette would probably agree with it in regard to this particular topic as well. However, you can't talk the intricacies of politics with the blanket statement that europeans be schemin. Specific things must be addressed, and she does the work of pinpointing those things.



~
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Days like this I miss Sha Mecca

  

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Musa
Member since Mar 08th 2006
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Sun Jul-22-18 12:47 PM

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53. "RE: How often do you listen to her show?"
In response to Reply # 45


  

          

I listen to her show all the time.

>I ask that b/c you end with "do for self" which she very
>often addresses and why it's sort of a futile philosophy
>without Black (DOS) politics, which could be considered the
>main point of her show (Black politics).
>Sure it's

I said the Do for self tongue in cheek but to reiterate that the concept she is vehemently against is the only on that makes sense.

>If this is for the sake of accuracy, I can't be mad at that.
>At the same time tho, I don't think this will make a
>difference where ideologies are concerned. Meaning, Yvette is
>still going to feel exactly the same about us as a people and
>our politics, regardless of this corrected information. If
>the main point here is that she shouldn't limit her video to
>the information she used, I can see that point. It has to be
>noted that she was responded to a specific article from a
>woman whose slave-trading grandfather had zero remorse as well
>tho.

Understood I see and agree we should not be trying to ally with people who don't want to ally with us and own up to their contribution to our current situation.


>Hold up. I'm gonna say "blame" is the wrong word here. She
>points out that they indeed receive benefits meant for us.
>Who's to "blame" for that is a different story when you start
>talking politics. However, she does say that if they want to
>be allies to us, then they would advocate for US to receive
>what is meant for us... that you can't really call yourself an
>ally while taking that from us.

I see what you are saying but lets be real we are talking about politics the skill of negotiation and a people in desperate situations looking to take whatever they can get even if that means stepping on someone else. These people would have to have a heart of gold not to take advantage of that situation and say no you know what Black folks you deserve this and it is actually for you.


>Well that's a statement I generally agree with, regarding
>racism. I think Yvette would probably agree with it in regard
>to this particular topic as well. However, you can't talk the
>intricacies of politics with the blanket statement that
>europeans be schemin. Specific things must be addressed, and
>she does the work of pinpointing those things.

I get a sentiment that she is saying we should ally with white folks and while I do not disagree on a individual basis as a group they have shown total opposition to our upward mobility more than any other immigrant group. White folks do scheme even the divisions between ethnic groups europeans fought with and have weapons to groups they showed favoritism with just like today in the USA making the first officially "Black" President A DESCENDANT of a Kenyan and white women, creating and pushing drugs in black communities, killing affirmative action and giving benefits to everyone but Black folks of ancestry in the USA via slavery.

<----

Soundcloud.com/aquil84

(HIP HOP)
http://aquil.bandcamp.com

  

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Boogie Stimuli
Member since Sep 24th 2010
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Sun Jul-22-18 03:56 PM

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54. "RE: How often do you listen to her show?"
In response to Reply # 53
Sun Jul-22-18 03:57 PM by Boogie Stimuli

          

>I listen to her show all the time.


I encourage you to try to listen to all of them (including ones you may have missed in the past)


>Understood I see and agree we should not be trying to ally
>with people who don't want to ally with us and own up to their
>contribution to our current situation.




Word.




>>Hold up. I'm gonna say "blame" is the wrong word here. She
>>points out that they indeed receive benefits meant for us.
>>Who's to "blame" for that is a different story when you
>start
>>talking politics. However, she does say that if they want
>to
>>be allies to us, then they would advocate for US to receive
>>what is meant for us... that you can't really call yourself
>an
>>ally while taking that from us.
>
>I see what you are saying but lets be real we are talking
>about politics the skill of negotiation and a people in
>desperate situations looking to take whatever they can get
>even if that means stepping on someone else. These people
>would have to have a heart of gold not to take advantage of
>that situation and say no you know what Black folks you
>deserve this and it is actually for you.




And since we're talking about blame, I don't think you'd get much argument from her about our system "allowing" that or giving our benefits away. At the same time, can we really call ourselves allied with, or the same as, those who not only take those benefits but feel no remorse for it or obligation to us? She's not saying those from the continent can't be allies, and she'd probably respond to your last sentence by saying "well then give me the ones with a heart of gold" lol. Just my speculation tho.





>I get a sentiment that she is saying we should ally with white folks



Oh man.
I'm not sure how you came to this conclusion.
She's saying we should ally with people who share our interests. She's said before that she believes in common interests and that allies are situational based on interests, but I think you're talking about the idea of petitioning gov't. She's also addressed this idea that she's seeking to ally with white folks, which is why I've encouraged you to listen to her more, as some of the stuff you're saying here has been addressed and put to rest on her show on multiple occasions. I don't wanna keep speaking for her, so I'll link you to some key programs.
Here are a couple of shows where she discussed this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gY5kmChE5XU (Data Explains How Illegal Immigration Impacts Our Community)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_N8oD7AvMnU (Govt's Role In Uplifting the African American Community)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8wG0Wic5q6M (Michelle Obama and Oprah Are Both Products of Big Government And Black Political Activism) That one is actually a shorter clip by Irami. Yvette addressed those things in a longer video on 5/17/17 entitled "Mo'Nique, Tyler Perry, Lee Daniels, Oprah and the Social Engineering of Hollywood" but this one is just more compact.







>and while I do not disagree on a individual basis as a
>group they have shown total opposition to our upward mobility
>more than any other immigrant group. White folks do scheme
>even the divisions between ethnic groups europeans fought with
>and have weapons to groups they showed favoritism with just
>like today in the USA making the first officially "Black"
>President A DESCENDANT of a Kenyan and white women, creating
>and pushing drugs in black communities, killing affirmative
>action and giving benefits to everyone but Black folks of
>ancestry in the USA via slavery.



This is the basics tho. I wouldn't disagree and neither would she. She's talked about Obama on many *many* occasions as well, btw, and gone far more in-depth than that about his detrimental actions to DOS.

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kfine
Member since Jan 11th 2009
2218 posts
Mon Jul-23-18 07:01 AM

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55. "Another important consideration, too, is how inter-colonizer"
In response to Reply # 39


          

power dynamics shaped the trafficking of Africans across the Americas.

Especially thinking about the Trans-Atlantic slave trade over a broader timescale...

For example, I used to only really think of the British when thinking about the TAST. But the British were relatively late to the game - like hundreds of years late compared to Portugal and Spain. And they got involved mostly by hijacking/robbing Portuguese and Spanish ships and reselling the captive Africans for profit on others' colonies (i.e. the real pirates of the Caribbean). They completed only a handful of those ops in the 1500s before scaling up after acquiring Virginia and other American colonies like 100 years later.

The French started late like the British and ended around the same time, but their trafficking was concentrated to smaller holdings in the Caribbean (present-day Haiti, Martinique, Guadalupe, Guyana, etc.) and, later, New France/Louisiana... enterprises which failed to endure very long due to uprising, Louisiana Purchase, abolishment etc. in early 1800s.

And the Dutch struggled too because they weren't as aggressive/imperial as the British and just wanted to recreate the smaller scale trading that had worked for them in the East. They ended up getting bogged down in wars with Portugal (losing Dutch Brazil colony) and Britain (over maritime supremacy in the Caribbean/key trade routes) and couldn't really afford to sustain a robust slave trade. In the end they settled on running what amounted to a slavery depot on Curacao to rapidly supply buyers in American and Spanish colonies.


So really, the main competition was between the early actors (Portugal and Spain) and the latter (Britain, France, Netherlands), of which Britain dominated and fought frequently with its competitors in the latter.. and all of the latter fought with all of the early actors at some point too.


And if we compare this history with estimated regional totals of Africans trafficked during the TAST, it pretty much matches up with what we'd expect (first column in table II, page 152):

https://dash.harvard.edu/bitstream/handle/1/3710252/nunn_long-termeffects.pdf?sequence=2

in the sense that

-African regions where the Portuguese traded most heavily lost the highest combined number of Africans to the TAST (Angola + DRC, Mozambique, Benin)

-African regions where the British traded most heavily lost the 2nd highest combined number (Nigeria)

-African regions where the Dutch traded most heavily lost the 3rd highest combined number (Ghana)

-and African regions where the French traded most heavily lost the 4th highest combined number (Senegal + Gambia, Mali, Guinea, Togo, etc)


Totals are a little off because different borders now, but still..




>so cut and dry as victim and victimized.
>
>What if your descendants were heavy in the slave trade and
>happened to be captured by a enemy ethnic group they were
>targeting? I can bet you 9 times out of 10 we as descendants
>of enslaved Africans being a walking embodiment of
>panafricanism (a mix of several ethnic groups) have lineage of
>at least one group complicit in the trade. How because there
>were wars between SEVERAL ETHNIC GROUPS and EMPIRES and the
>POWs were sold to Europeans. Igbo were selling their own and
>selling Yoruba, Yoruba were fighting against Fon and Fon were
>fighting everyone selling them because they had one of the
>strongest empires at the time. Kongo were fighting mbundi and
>Tikar(Bamoun Bamileke) Tikar were fighting fang Ashanti were
>fighting Fanti, Mende, Mende were fighting Fula , Bambara and
>Fula were righting Hausa and Edo and Igbo etc etc etc. Point
>being ethnic groups were fighting each other and the pows were
>sold to Europeans. It is not as cut and dry as we want to make
>it seem. Along with the ethnic division you had religious
>division and within the religion you had division Almoravids
>vs Wolof vs Soninke vs Fula vs Hausa who were all majority
>Islamic ethnic groups. Also lets not forget to mention a good
>number of Igbo were shipped to the USA mainly Virginia now
>were they sent by fellow Igbo or neighboring groups they were
>fighting against. The history is very muddy.
>
>

  

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Musa
Member since Mar 08th 2006
15789 posts
Mon Jul-23-18 08:26 AM

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58. "Oh most definitely"
In response to Reply # 55


  

          

The we ain't African group backhanded uses those statistics to say we ain't African because the British and subsequent Americans were late to the slave trade but that is when their numbers spiked.'

By the numbers in South America, central America and Caribbean it is clear the Portuguese and Spanish where most prolific in the trade from it's origin.

Dutch were in it but lost wars like you said.

The French and British were late too and their wars along with the USA gaining independence caused them to lose a strong hold on the trade.

The USA actually were the 4th leg of the Slave trade and took the baton and ran with it over from the Caribbean and Atlantic and the numbers jumped astronomically.

I also find it interesting the detailed records the Brits kept. Those records need to be made public and accessible.


<----

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(HIP HOP)
http://aquil.bandcamp.com

  

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kfine
Member since Jan 11th 2009
2218 posts
Mon Jul-23-18 09:04 AM

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59. "Right. Ya I agree."
In response to Reply # 58


          


I think it's prudent to disambiguate the USA slave trade from Britain's colonial slave trade because, as you note - the numbers jumped astronomically from what was already aggressive exploitation by Britain... and individual states built and/or expanded on existing trade networks which diversified the ethnic mix of Africans sold to different regions, depending on the network. For eg:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_slavery_in_Massachusetts

"Most of the 17th century slave trade in New England was based in Massachusetts, however, direct attempts were not successful until the latter half of the century. In 1676, Boston ships began working with slave traders in Madagascar and by 1678 were selling slaves to Virginians. As for slaves imported to Massachusetts, operators preferred to trade Africans for more experienced slaves in the West Indies. Some Africans unsuitable for work in the West Indies were also brought to Massachusetts for sale. Boston ships were selling slaves to Connecticut by 1680 and Rhode Island by 1696."


>
>I also find it interesting the detailed records the Brits
>kept. Those records need to be made public and accessible.
>
>
>

Hmm.. I've actually read that the Portuguese and Spanish kept the better records?? And there's this database, maintained by Emory University (you might be familiar):

http://www.slavevoyages.org/voyage/search


If you sort the list by "Year Arrived.." one sees how dominance evolved over time, and the records for the Portuguese and Spanish ships definitely seem more complete... Which I guess makes sense considering how Britain weaseled it's way in. Also notable how little detail they were able to find for ships on later voyages as the abolition movement became more substantive.. lots of vague descriptors for where captives disembarked (eg. "Windward Coast")

  

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Musa
Member since Mar 08th 2006
15789 posts
Mon Jul-23-18 09:33 AM

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61. "Wow word it makes sense especially since the Brits were pirates"
In response to Reply # 59


  

          

to have worse records.

Also I am familiar with that data base I have been looking at it for the past month religiously.

Also going back to specific colonial forces having trade relations with specific african regions you can even see it in the Americas for instance Virginia having a heavy population of ethnic groups from modern say nigeria.

Louisiana having a heavy concentration of senegambian region ethnic groups followed by Congo/Angola region so much so they have Congo Square in New Orleans and the biggest prison in the state(and I believe in the country) is nicknamed Angola (and a former plantation) because that is where a majority of the enslaved people who were taken there came from.

Georgia, South and North Carolina having a heavy Igbo, Fulani, Yoruba influence.

Cuba and it's heavy Yoruba influence down to Lukumi.

Haiti and it's heavy Benin influence via the French relations with Dahomey who they eventually turned on. Also legend has it Haiti was tasked with being the first nation to spark the revolution since many of it's people come from the Empire that was selling folks into slavery(That is legend).

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dafriquan
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18. "I think you are off on this one"
In response to Reply # 0
Wed Jul-18-18 09:41 AM by dafriquan

  

          

I get the sentiment but it's a bit superficial because:
1. African slave traders represented a 1% type "merchant" class.
2. Colonization did not quite play how one might have imagined. Once the hierarchy was forcefully established, the "best, brightest and strongest" strived to climb it (through religion, education) since they could not possibly beat them (guns vs spears). It was also very attractive to those who were marginalized under the tribal system. Former slaves returned and took advantage of this new hierarchy.
3. While there are some big slave merchant families, most of their descendants today did not maintain any economic or political clout in the colonial or post-colonial era.

So to assume that any Africans you encounter in the US/UK are by default complicit in some type oppression, is quite reductionist. On the contrary some of them might be getting out from under oppression or looking for a place where they can flourish.

Ps On a side note, this article was surprising for me to read because of its honesty and transparency. While you might roll your eyes at their "plight", this family is 100 years ahead of most West Africans. Slavery is just not something we talk about in any real way publicly. It's always very abstract and impersonal.


>Side note I many side eyed certain groups that seemed to flock
>to the UK and US from Africa because many of times I made the
>association of either political connections, finances or some
>kind of collaboration with colonial rulers.
>

  

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Musa
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20. "I was not as specific as I could be"
In response to Reply # 18


  

          

>I get the sentiment but it's a bit superficial because:
>1. African slave traders represented a 1% type "merchant"
>class.

While I don't disagree with those numbers all of my research shows 5 major empires where enslaved people were funneled through but the conflicts between several ethnic/religious groups provided many POWs for Europeans. Especially among us Black folk are of Senegambian, Congo region and Niger river valley/ Delta origin.


>2. Colonization did not quite play how one might have
>imagined. Once the hierarchy was forcefully established, the
>"best, brightest and strongest" strived to climb it (through
>religion, education) since they could not possibly beat them
>(guns vs spears). It was also very attractive to those who
>were marginalized under the tribal system. Former slaves
>returned and took advantage of this new hierarchy.

No doubt this is a standard practice of colonial empires.

>3. While there are some big slave merchant families, most of
>their descendants today did not maintain any economic or
>political clout in the colonial or post-colonial era.

Interesting and while I do not doubt this is true.

>So to assume that any Africans you encounter in the US/UK are
>by default complicit in some type oppression, is quite
>reductionist. On the contrary some of them might be getting
>out from under oppression or looking for a place where they
>can flourish.

I have ran into some "royals" from Nigeria and their attitude was very off putting to say the least. Also while I have no doubt that a majority of the people are not of that origin I make that assumption looking at many other nations that have populations that flock to "Western" countries. Usually it is because they were from the ethnic group complicit with the colonial powers or "Western" nations in some sort of coup, political destabilization that lost. Of course this gets more complicated with the 511 million ethnic groups in Africa but I wouldn't say all or even most.

>Ps On a side note, this article was surprising for me to read
>because of its honesty and transparency. While you might roll
>your eyes at their "plight", this family is 100 years ahead of
>most West Africans. Slavery is just not something we talk
>about in any real way publicly. It's always very abstract and
>impersonal.

I don't side eye the plight I side eye the attitude and mentality many take on especially in regards to Black folks in the USA.

>>Side note I many side eyed certain groups that seemed to
>flock
>>to the UK and US from Africa because many of times I made
>the
>>association of either political connections, finances or
>some
>>kind of collaboration with colonial rulers.
>>
>

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dafriquan
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32. "RE: I was not as specific as I could be"
In response to Reply # 20


  

          


>
>>3. While there are some big slave merchant families, most of
>>their descendants today did not maintain any economic or
>>political clout in the colonial or post-colonial era.
>
>Interesting and while I do not doubt this is true.


>
>>So to assume that any Africans you encounter in the US/UK
>are
>>by default complicit in some type oppression, is quite
>>reductionist. On the contrary some of them might be getting
>>out from under oppression or looking for a place where they
>>can flourish.
>
>I have ran into some "royals" from Nigeria and their attitude
>was very off putting to say the least.

well the bad attitude has often gone both ways. The "African booty scratcher" insults were equally off-putting.

>Usually it is
>because they were from the ethnic group complicit with the
>colonial powers or "Western" nations in some sort of coup,
>political destabilization that lost.

I get what you mean like with Anti-Castro Cubans etc but it does not quite translate for Africans I know. For instance: The South Sudanese coming to the US were mostly actually refugees from a brutal war. A lot of Igbos who migrated to the US in the late 60s came there running away from Nigerian-Biafran war (Nigerian government was supported by their former colonial masters ).
Now for some lesser represented African countries, you are likely to be running into diplomat kids and the families of government. But there are too many Ghanaians/Nigerians/Senegalese in the states for all of them to be connected to old or new power back home.


>I don't side eye the plight I side eye the attitude and
>mentality many take on especially in regards to Black folks in
>the USA.
fair enough.

  

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Musa
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34. "Indeed"
In response to Reply # 32


  

          

I have spoke with a few Igbo folk who are here directly because of Biafran war so that is understood how Northern ethnic groups were armed to put down the rebellion.

Also as far as being called African booty scratcher the anti African sentiment is veey real due to the self hate and media propaganda and also tribalism.

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rob
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31. "also going back several generations tends to inflate how common"
In response to Reply # 18


  

          

some things are.

many times more of us had ancestors that did despicable things than the actual number of people doing despicable things.

  

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dafriquan
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33. "true"
In response to Reply # 31


  

          

  

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rob
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24. "i think it's important to understand both the american/texan revolutions"
In response to Reply # 0
Wed Jul-18-18 10:53 AM by rob

  

          

...and not just the civil war...

as wars about the rights of white men to do whatever the fuck they wanted, the right to exploit people even more than the governments of europe and mexico were comfortable doing.

obviously it isn't the whole story, but it's a huge part of the story

  

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Musa
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27. "I totally agree"
In response to Reply # 24


  

          

The American revolution was not revolutionary at all in ideals and the Mexican land grab that was the war for Texas falls right along those lines so much so you had colonizers in what was then Rhodesia (Now Zimbabwe) identifying with the American revolution.

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exactopposite
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37. "My Kenyan friends told me to never trust Nigerians"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

When they told me why my mind was blown

  

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Musa
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40. "Okay so you ain't gonna share the why"
In response to Reply # 37


  

          

????

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flipnile
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41. " Naw. exactopposite is probably Nigerian."
In response to Reply # 40


          

lol

  

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exactopposite
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42. "my bad. I thought it was obvious based on the topic "
In response to Reply # 40


  

          

They said Nigerians couldn't be trusted because Nigerians sold people into slavery. They are sellouts. They don't care about our (as in African) people.

  

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Musa
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43. "Ha all good"
In response to Reply # 42


  

          

And shiiit Benin can't be trusted nor can Congo or Angola.

Senegambia region or Ghana either for that matter.

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Shaun Tha Don
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44. "So far, only Benin and Ghana apologized for their roles"
In response to Reply # 43


          

in the Slave Trade.

Rest In Peace, Bad News Brown

  

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Musa
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47. "Ghana actually offering dual citizenship"
In response to Reply # 44


  

          

that is a great start as well too.

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kfine
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49. "You should ask your Kenyan friends if they're aware Kenya,"
In response to Reply # 42
Sat Jul-21-18 10:37 AM by kfine

          

Tanzania, and Mozambique (referred to then as "Zanj" by Arab slave traders) were a key market of the Indian Ocean slave trade and that slavery along the "Swahili Coast" began several hundred years before the Trans-Atlantic slave trade:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Slavezanzibar2.JPG


Pinning African enslavement on any one group or state doesn't make very much sense, imho.


For starters, the countries/borders as we know them today did not exist back then. Would it make sense to demand that Angola apologize on behalf of the Kingdom of Kongo??

Furthermore, intra-national tensions persist even to today. For example, present-day Nigeria was being raided from every angle for like 3+ slave markets:

-Northern Nigeria via Songhai empire's involvement in Trans-Saharan slave trade with Arabs;

-Southwestern Nigeria via Oyo Yorubas selling other Yoruba groups for Trans-Atlantic slave trade to Portuguese and Dutch traders;

-Southeastern Nigeria via Efiks and Aro Igbos selling Igbos and other regional groups for Trans-Atlantic slave trade to British and Spanish traders.

Divisions were inflamed during the colonial era and there was already a civil war less than a century ago. And current Nigerian federal politics lacks adequate representation of many of the groups in question.

Who are you expecting to step up and take responsibility at-large??

And we can assume similar complexity along the entire perimeter and interior of Africa because Trans-Atlantic trade was not the only or even the first vehicle through which Africans were being sold.


>They said Nigerians couldn't be trusted because Nigerians
>sold people into slavery. They are sellouts. They don't care
>about our (as in African) people.
>
>

  

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Musa
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51. "I tried to break this down"
In response to Reply # 49


  

          

To folks on the Yvette Carnell show about this article. It's not as cut and dry as country, ethnicity etc.

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exactopposite
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62. "Take it easy fam"
In response to Reply # 49


  

          

I think you are assuming that I agreed with them and that I don't know this history. That was almost 20 years ago and while I didn't know the history then, I learned in the time since then.

  

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Reuben
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46. "Its complicated but here's a start"
In response to Reply # 0
Sat Jul-21-18 04:27 AM by Reuben

  

          

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhna3l_t9-E

_______________________________________
When discourse of Blackness is not connected to efforts to promote collective black self determinism
it becomes simply another recourse appropriated by the colonizer

http://hardboiledbabesanddarkchocolate.tumblr.co

  

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Musa
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48. "GOOD LOOKING OUT"
In response to Reply # 46


  

          

And I agree it is not so cut and dry it is very complicated.

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kfine
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50. "Fascinating read. Though I feel like I need a shower after"
In response to Reply # 0


          


slogging through all that distinctly Igbo-flavoured elitism and mysticism.


I hate all that crap.

Lol

Good on her for writing so honestly, though.




  

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Musa
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52. "Ha no doubt"
In response to Reply # 50


  

          

.

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kfine
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56. "Post-Jack: does the timing of all this black-on-black slavery "
In response to Reply # 0


          


discourse strike anyone else as a little conspicuous??


There's this swiped piece in the New Yorker...

HarperCollins/News Corp deciding to source and publish Zora Neale Hurston's "Barracoon: The Story of the Last "Black Cargo" recently, after it sat in storage for almost a hundred years...

Sony/Tristar producing that upcoming movie about the Dahomey kingdom..


And probably others I'm not aware of.


NOT that I believe any of this shouldn't be widely known or discussed; a lot of this history is widely accessible (eg. wikipedia) if people care to look.


But there seems to be this growing interest in transforming the narrative of slavery to one where the role of Arabs/Europeans/Americans is virtually diminished. And there's a bit of a "why now" feel to all of it, for me anyway.


After (forcing myself to) sitting through some Yvette carnell videos on this topic, I am now like.. if there was a political faction that wished to capitalize, politically, in sowing discord between Black Americans and other black groups - this would be a very effective issue to weaponize for that purpose.

Black (economic, political, judicial) empowerment tenets of the Black nationalist agenda are essentially supplanted with tenets that are predominantly anti- (immigration, affirmative action, African), which certainly aligns better with right-wing goals.

  

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Musa
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57. "It is very interesting especially step up is going to"
In response to Reply # 56


  

          

invest in African nations.

I think it should be on our agenda to gain dual citizenship with any African nation open to it and build relations for our mutual benefit.

That is why I am against a lot of what Yvette says.

I am reading Barracoon now and while it was a reality that you had conflicts between different ethnic groups we need historians to flush out the truth that it wasn't Black people selling their own per se it was different nations vs nations vs empires etc.

But yea it is interesting I read a review on the Hurston book that asked the same think

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flipnile
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65. "What nations currently allow this?"
In response to Reply # 57


          

>I think it should be on our agenda to gain dual citizenship
>with any African nation open to it and build relations for our
>mutual benefit.

  

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Musa
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66. "Ghana"
In response to Reply # 65


  

          

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flipnile
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72. "Is it via this "Right to Abode" program? (link)"
In response to Reply # 66


          

http://ghanatrade.com.gh/images/products/laws/GHANA%20IMMIGRATION%20SERVICE%20RIGHT%20OF%20ABODE.pdf

https://www.mint.gov.gh/services/right-of-abode/


Interesting.

  

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Musa
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73. "Not sure but it references Africans of the diaspora"
In response to Reply # 72


  

          

so that is probably it.

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dafriquan
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64. "yup. i also feel same way about black gender wars"
In response to Reply # 56


  

          

if there was a political
>faction that wished to capitalize, politically, in sowing
>discord between Black Americans and other black groups - this
>would be a very effective issue to weaponize for that purpose.
>

if i was a strategic racist looking to put some dollars towards sewing black dischord, i would invest in propagating the message that black men are more deplorable than their non-black counterparts when it comes to how they treat their women. i would make "misogynoir" or whatever it's called, top of mind.

there are divisions or potential divisions in the black community that i refuse to give oxygen for fear of playing into a more sinister plot. this is why i think Kanye was a fool for allowing himself to be subverted as a pawn of the alt-right. all because he wanted to feel "free".

  

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kfine
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69. "I see what you mean. Though, I definitely see "
In response to Reply # 64


          



"misogynoir" as very real and both a current and historical phenomenon.

The problem with gender issues is their prevalence in various groups regardless of orchestration by others, unfortunately... But that's just something (black) men and women need to work on collectively.


>this is why i think Kanye was a
>fool for allowing himself to be subverted as a pawn of the
>alt-right. all because he wanted to feel "free".
>

Lol ABSOLUTELY

  

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dafriquan
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70. "I agree that it's real. I don't think it needs a special "
In response to Reply # 69


  

          

Men across the racial board have been deplorable, exploitative and misogynistic etc towards women from the beginning of time. Most violent takes place within proximity and familiarity so why does black on black misogyny need a special name?

Does Asian misogyny have a special name?
Does Latin misogyny have a special name?

Remember that video by a white woman calling out black men for being shit and looking for cosigns from black women? That was some bizzare-world shit.

I don't know I'm wary of how some of these anti-black conversations are getting normalized and thrown back in our face as "well your own people say you ain't shit. what am i saying that's new?"



>
>"misogynoir" as very real and both a current and historical
>phenomenon.
>
>The problem with gender issues is their prevalence in various
>groups regardless of orchestration by others, unfortunately...
>But that's just something (black) men and women need to work
>on collectively.
>
>
>>this is why i think Kanye was a
>>fool for allowing himself to be subverted as a pawn of the
>>alt-right. all because he wanted to feel "free".
>>
>
>Lol ABSOLUTELY

  

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afrogirl_lost
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60. "I remember first reading about the osu in a Chinua Achebe book"
In response to Reply # 0


          

I researched a lot since then and this article brings back that same sickening feeling. I'm glad that more folks will know about this.




  

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Musa
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63. "I know it is a classic"
In response to Reply # 60


  

          

I have never read that book.

I will before this year is out.

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Garhart Poppwell
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68. "RE: fuck your great grandfather the Nigerian slave trader "
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

__________________________________________
CHOP-THESE-BITCHES!!!!
------------------------------------
Garhart Ivanhoe Poppwell
Un-OK'd moderator for The Lesson and Make The Music (yes, I do's work up in here, and in your asscrease if you run foul of this

  

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