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Subject: "Bitcoin is a Ponzi scheme, and it will collapse like one" Previous topic | Next topic
ThaTruth
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99998 posts
Sat Dec-30-17 07:28 PM

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"Bitcoin is a Ponzi scheme, and it will collapse like one"


          

http://thehill.com/opinion/finance/364306-bitcoin-is-a-ponzi-scheme-and-it-will-collapse-like-one

At its root, bitcoin is a Ponzi scheme — it will stay afloat only as long as enough people buy the fiction that bitcoin represents real value. All other cyber currencies are Ponzi schemes, too, except, arguably, initial coin offerings (ICOs) funding actual business start-ups.

Ponzi schemes promise investors returns above what real investments yield, but the Ponzi scheme operator does little, if any, actual investing. Instead, cash from new investors is paid to earlier investors to maintain the illusion that the scheme is earning real profits.

All Ponzi schemes eventually collapse, of course, when sufficient amounts can no longer be raised from new investors to pay off earlier investors.



The same will occur with bitcoin and all other cyber currencies, except perhaps the ICOs. Investors will pull back from buying cyber currencies, causing their prices to begin a sustained decline.

That downward spiral will accelerate as cyber-currency “investors” try to bail out before prices plunge even more. As one sports-radio commentator I heard recently sagely observed, cyber currencies are “imaginary money.” That reality will become readily evident as cyber currencies’ prices approach zero.

Even bitcoin, the dominant cyber currency (it accounted for $278 billion, or almost two-thirds, of the $445 billion market value of all cyber currencies at noon Monday, Eastern time), will not be immune to this wipeout. Worse, a sharp drop in bitcoin’s price could easily trigger the collapse of all cyber currency prices.



This overdue disaster will occur because all cyber currencies, except possibly some ICOs, have no intrinsic value. As I explained on Dec. 4 in a piece for The Hill, cyber-currencies, except ICOs, lack any substance — there is no “there” there.

The solid line in the chart below shows bitcoin’s price decline in recent days after a quadrupling of its price over the last three months (the solid line), as well as its extreme daily price volatility (the dashed line.) That volatility makes it impractical to use bitcoin when buying or selling goods and services.

Bitcoin Daily Closing Price/Percent Change from Day Prior

Image and video hosting by TinyPic


A key driver of bitcoin’s price volatility and consequence instability is the high level of bitcoin buying and selling, or turnover. Sellers are trying to lock-in a gain, or minimize a loss, while buyers are gambling that bitcoin still has some price appreciation potential.

The solid line in the chart below illustrates bitcoin’s daily turnover, expressed as a percentage of the total market value of all bitcoins outstanding at the end of the day. Recently, over 5 percent of all bitcoins have been changing hands on a daily basis.

Bitcoin Daily Turnover and Daily High/Low Price — 7-Day Moving Average

Image and video hosting by TinyPic

That turnover correlates with the significant intraday fluctuation in bitcoin prices — the ratio of bitcoin’s daily high price to its daily low price, as shown by the dashed line above.

The high turnover rate is powerful evidence that many bitcoin investors are seeking short-term gains rather than making a long-term investment. Consequently, a sudden, panic-driven influx of sell orders or a pullback by buyers suddenly unwilling to gamble on a steadily rising bitcoin price will sink that price.

Since nothing of substance, except the number of coins outstanding, differentiates one cyber currency from another, a flood of bitcoin sell orders could quickly become contagious, driving down all cyber currency prices, as prospective buyers hold back, waiting for prices to go even lower.

Such an event would be comparable to a flock of investors in a Ponzi scheme suddenly demanding their money back. Once redemptions exceed fresh investments, the scheme collapses.

Some see Sunday’s launch of a futures market for cyber currencies as giving investors a tool for protecting themselves against losses, but I am skeptical about that promise ever being fulfilled.

Monday’s significant jump in bitcoin’s price should not give anyone confidence that its price has bottomed out. That increase is solely attributable to the launch of the bitcoin futures contract.

Cyber-currency futures will stumble, though, given the impossibility of forecasting with any degree of confidence the future price of bitcoin, much less any cyber currency, with the possible exception of ICOs funding real businesses.

---

RELATED STORIES FROM THE HILL

SARIT MARKOVICH: Though valuable, bitcoin unlikely to replace traditional currencies
ANDREW WU: Bitcoin buyers: Proceed with extreme caution
JAMES ANGEL: Bitcoin bonanza must be met with smart, tailored regulation
---

These futures contracts will not provide much of a safety net for cyber-currency investors. Consequently, bitcoin and its ilk will collapse, just as earlier speculative bubbles did, going back to the plunge of tulip prices in 1637.

While the blockchain technology underlying bitcoin and the other cyber currencies has value in efficiently and safely executing and recording transactions, that technology does not give cyber currencies any marketplace value.

The inability of cyber currencies to serve as a store of value and to efficiently function as a medium of exchange for buying and selling real goods and services will become increasingly evident. Once that fiction is revealed, the game will be over for cyber currencies, just as it was for the Wizard of Oz when Toto pulled back the curtain.

The collapse in the market value of bitcoin and the other cyber currencies will generate substantial controversy — how could so many people have been so wrong about their value?

That questioning will lead to the inevitable political backlash as recent investors in cyber currencies tally up their losses — in the aggregate hundreds of billions of dollars.

While the forthcoming bitcoin bust will not end well for cyber currencies lacking any intrinsic value, from that wreckage will emerge sounder means for executing a variety of financial transactions, based on blockchain technology, that transfer the ownership of assets with real value.

Meanwhile bitcoin and the like will quickly fade into financial history, just as tulipmania did, serving solely to remind future generations of the folly of gambling on illusions of value.

Bert Ely is the principal of Ely & Company, Inc., where he monitors conditions in the banking and thrift industries, monetary policy, the payments system and the growing federalization of credit risk.

________________________________________
"Take the surprise out your voice Shaq."-The REAL CP3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2H5K-BUMS0

  

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Topic Outline
Subject Author Message Date ID
horrid analogy withstanding
Dec 30th 2017
1
I pray for this every day...
Dec 30th 2017
2
When all of the Bitcoin is mined.....
Dec 31st 2017
4
follow alts. people are making nuts in that arena for real.
Jan 03rd 2018
15
A commodity bubble isn't a Ponzi scheme
Dec 30th 2017
3
I LOVE articles and interviews like these...
Dec 31st 2017
5
Bitcoin is like aol.
Dec 31st 2017
6
why EOS?
Jan 03rd 2018
16
it's not a ponzi scheme. that doesn't mean it won't collapse like one.
Dec 31st 2017
7
It has major issues and people who don't understand it shouldn't invest,...
Dec 31st 2017
8
Isn't the whole thing about "investing" about "having someone who....
Dec 31st 2017
9
so is the dollar bill
Dec 31st 2017
10
...the best one out.
Dec 31st 2017
11
ya know, I've been thinking....NOTHING is stable.
Jan 03rd 2018
17
I just love how everyone is an expert on this. These articles are funny
Jan 03rd 2018
12
there's room in the world for maybe like five computers
Jan 03rd 2018
13
what a fucking garbage article.
Jan 03rd 2018
14

tomjohn29
Member since Oct 18th 2004
16803 posts
Sat Dec-30-17 07:49 PM

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1. "horrid analogy withstanding"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

the main component of bitcoin that work is the block chain a verifiable ledger that pretty much get direct between patron and supplier. No one owns the rights to block chaining and major banks around the world are already creating products that use it.

a ponzi scheme though lol

______________________________________

Navem nu, cuando sol
Tutu nu, vondo nos nu
Vita em, no continous non
Nos nu ekta nos sepe ta, amen

When the sun shades the ship
We sweat and life is not safe
To swim or to touch not
When we unite we hedge amen

  

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Kira
Member since Nov 14th 2004
28849 posts
Sat Dec-30-17 08:33 PM

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2. "I pray for this every day..."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

.... so I can buy 10 million shares 0.01 cent a piece and watch it go back up to 10,000 cake off and disappear forever. Nobody will find me while I hide in No Nuts, Canada with my millions on some Bruce Wayne shit.

  

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rorschach
Member since Nov 10th 2004
7723 posts
Sun Dec-31-17 12:26 AM

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4. "When all of the Bitcoin is mined....."
In response to Reply # 2


  

          

I believe there will be a major crash where the value drops down to the $100-200 range. I don't think Bitcoin will keep climbing at the rate it did this year. I'm anticipating Bitcoin leveling off at about $1000 a coin when it's all said and done.

Having said that, I'm no financial expert. If I had to invest now, I'd be inclined to invest in Ethereum and LiteCoin mining right now. And I'd also focus on flipping via currency exchange later on.

  

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double negative
Member since Dec 14th 2007
22151 posts
Wed Jan-03-18 05:09 PM

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15. "follow alts. people are making nuts in that arena for real. "
In response to Reply # 2


  

          

like say, XRB is now 30 a coin (do not understand why) and when it first dropped it was a cent per coin. If you had known to buy 100 bucks in april 2017 you would be sitting on 300k now.


however, the whole alt scene is....its kinda garbage and I am in it. Lots of hype, lots of love around half baked shit but if you get in early you can make the money.

at the same time, in the alt area, lots of very very VERY cool shit is happening and I'm betting on a few movers.

***********************************************************
https://soundcloud.com/swageyph/yph-die-with-me

  

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Stringer Bell
Member since Mar 15th 2004
3175 posts
Sat Dec-30-17 11:08 PM

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3. "A commodity bubble isn't a Ponzi scheme"
In response to Reply # 0


          

When people were investing a year's salary buying tulips back in 1636 in the Netherlands (google "tulip mania"), it wasn't because of a scheme. It was because they overestimated the lifespan of the market for tulips at the current market prices. The driving force of this phenomenon wasn't malfeasance but the greed and stupidity of the market participants.

The distinguishing characteristic is that a Ponzi scheme entails a fraudulent claim of investment by a fiduciary. A person telling people they are investing in bitcoin through their brokerage, but who is actually paying out the investor's capital to newer investers or otherwise misallocating it is involved in a Ponzi scheme, strictly speaking.

But most of the investment driving bitcoin's valuation is legitimate, in the sense that most people actually own the bitcoins they think they do. This can't be accurately described as their being involved in a Ponzi scheme.

Cliffs: There is no good reason for muddying definitions by describing the commodity bubble of bitcoin as a Ponzi scheme.

  

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bibblegolf
Member since Oct 19th 2004
21833 posts
Sun Dec-31-17 06:00 AM

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5. "I LOVE articles and interviews like these..."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

"The more a country produces..the richer it is...the better it should take care of it's people. - Dr. Aleida Guevara"

  

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dapitts08
Member since Apr 03rd 2008
8204 posts
Sun Dec-31-17 11:14 AM

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6. "Bitcoin is like aol."
In response to Reply # 0


          

It ushers in the underlying technology (blockchain) to be adopted by the masses but like aol the tech that is built out from its foundation will surpass it. And just like aol...bitcoin will remain around but will become less and less relevant as other alt coins branch out and advance the tech.

my eye is eos.

the key to happiness is not being rich;
it's doing something arduous and
creating something of value and then
being able to reflect on the fruits of your labor

  

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double negative
Member since Dec 14th 2007
22151 posts
Wed Jan-03-18 05:11 PM

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16. "why EOS?"
In response to Reply # 6


  

          

I've not yet read up on it and I'm a bit apprehensive to move towards it

***********************************************************
https://soundcloud.com/swageyph/yph-die-with-me

  

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Rjcc
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94966 posts
Sun Dec-31-17 01:03 PM

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7. "it's not a ponzi scheme. that doesn't mean it won't collapse like one."
In response to Reply # 0


          


www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

  

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B9
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43124 posts
Sun Dec-31-17 02:36 PM

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8. "It has major issues and people who don't understand it shouldn't invest,..."
In response to Reply # 0


          

I don't think Bert Ely, who is a smart financial skeptic with a long track record of calling out crashes, totally understands the currencies himself.

Watching people that have zero clue about bitcoin both run headlong into "investing" in it, beating their chest when it inflated and now shitting themselves as it slightly-crashes, gives me the best sort of schadenfreude imaginable.

  

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c71
Member since Jan 15th 2008
13966 posts
Sun Dec-31-17 03:27 PM

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9. "Isn't the whole thing about "investing" about "having someone who...."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

....wants to buy?"


How valuable can a stock (or commodity) be if no one wants to buy it?


Some will say, "well, if a company who sells the stock is profitable, then the stock price will rise even if no one (supposedly) wants to buy the stock at the moment."


So....

The value of Bitcoin (or any stock or trade commodity) seems to "need" people who want to buy/invest in it for it to have "value."


Therefore...

If a lot of investors who don't understand investing get into Bitcoin or stocks, then their behavior (unwise buying, selling, trading or whatever) will effect the stock value or Bitcoins value (no matter what the "wise" investors would want or hope for - if all things "worked" as they "are supposed to" in this investing/trading game).


So...

the more people who "don't understand" get involved, the more "mess" can "happen" illogically or wrongly or whatever.

  

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Crash Bandacoot
Member since May 13th 2003
10122 posts
Sun Dec-31-17 03:46 PM

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10. "so is the dollar bill"
In response to Reply # 0


          

>

  

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Walk On
Member since Apr 04th 2005
8344 posts
Sun Dec-31-17 04:06 PM

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11. "...the best one out."
In response to Reply # 10


  

          

<--- #LoveCitees

message brought to you by...

www.onustees.com

  

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double negative
Member since Dec 14th 2007
22151 posts
Wed Jan-03-18 05:13 PM

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17. "ya know, I've been thinking....NOTHING is stable. "
In response to Reply # 10


  

          

like, even if I were to reverse gears and pull out all investments in all areas and just sat on cash I would be in a funny position - although cash is king....Inflation will get ya.

***********************************************************
https://soundcloud.com/swageyph/yph-die-with-me

  

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-DJ R-Tistic-
Member since Nov 06th 2008
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Wed Jan-03-18 12:31 PM

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12. "I just love how everyone is an expert on this. These articles are funny"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

------------------------------

50+ FREE Mixes on www.DJR-Tistic.com!

Twitter and Instagram - @DJ_RTistic

  

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Atillah Moor
Member since Sep 05th 2013
13825 posts
Wed Jan-03-18 04:32 PM

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13. "there's room in the world for maybe like five computers "
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

  

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double negative
Member since Dec 14th 2007
22151 posts
Wed Jan-03-18 05:05 PM

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14. "what a fucking garbage article. "
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

fucker kept calling them cyber currency

meanwhile

the author seems to know jackshit about the technology and I mean the tech beyond the blockchain

also, whats up with the ICO love? I think those are actually the worst part of crypto.

no mention of DAG technology, smart contracts or the idea that of all the cryptos bitcoins strength is first mover advantage + limited supply + its kinda acting as the backbone of the crypto world meaning - just about every coin out there pairs with BTC. Sure, you can do the same with LTC or ETH but BTC is damn near the dollar in that its accepted everywhere in the crypto world

dude even left out the partnerships that are happening with coins

banks potentially using XRP

XLM partnership with IMB

IOTA partnership with bosch

the fact that ETH is not just a coin but a platform


fuck this shit.
I am a skeptic AND a buyer/watcher of crypto and his criticism is just stupid.


If you really want to criticize BTC then you should talk about the high fees, slow transaction times and infighting between groups (BTC vs. BCH vs the other lame forks)


***********************************************************
https://soundcloud.com/swageyph/yph-die-with-me

  

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