1. "We must destroy both racism and capitalism - Huey Newton" In response to Reply # 0
The premise of the article is nothing WEB Dubois didn't lay out in the book "Black Reconstruction" and that was published in 1935, taking a look at the years 1860-1880. Are we ready? Nah, are THEY ready? We been ready.
I'm gonna need more substantive evidence that our living conditions are getting worse which the article you provided asserts....but provides nothing to support but allusions.
Also...there are two definitions of capitalism. The academic, intellectual one defined by Adam Smith's 'The wealth of nations' and the one commonly used by critics which 1. is not the same as the academic one and 2. Seems to be malleable to serve as whatever boogeyman one wants to characterize it as given a specific agenda. Frankly, it's hard to pin down because it often contradicts the proper theoretical definition....and it's interchangeable with the aims of falsely attributing social injustices to it.
I know this...I'd rather live here than Venezuela right now. And Maduro's regime is a perfect example of how the non-academic definition of capitalism is used as a propaganda boogeyman to achieve tyrannical, power-seeking ends. The question I have for people who fail to recognize our privilege in living in our current society.....when and where else would you prefer to live in the entire history of human civilization than here and now? Things can always get better.....but I think there's something pathological in refusing to acknowledge how lucky we are and it's a crippling worldview to have for personal growth and happiness and success. It's pathological to enjoy (and feel entitled to) the spoils of capitalism while disingenuously opposing it when convenient.
All that being said...I think we will have no choice but to lean more heavily towards emphasis on socialist policies as technology continues to advance. Specifically in regards to basic universal income and other forms of wealth redistribution. So I agree with the article in regards to future considerations. I don't agree with the article's characterization of our current living conditions as compared to anywhere, anytime.
**************** TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*
legsdiamond Member since May 05th 2011 79620 posts
Wed Aug-02-17 09:39 AM
10. "what are the demographics of those countries? " In response to Reply # 7
someone pointed that out on here. It's easy to point to Sweden and Norway but those places are pasty white. Now that refugees are flooding europe shit is getting ugly.
Americans aren't going to let Messicans and Black folk live that socialist good life in America even if it meant a better life for themselves.
**************** TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*
legsdiamond Member since May 05th 2011 79620 posts
Wed Aug-02-17 10:10 AM
17. "Norway is like 95% white with 60K sammi's" In response to Reply # 11
**************** TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*
Please tell me you guys are aware that even Norway and Sweden are capitalist countries. That capitalism is the most pervasive economic system in ALL countries of the world.
20. "What does that even mean?" In response to Reply # 16 Wed Aug-02-17 10:25 AM by denny
They certainly do 'consume' free market goods and services. I know you're using 'consumerism' in the lefty woke sense....but they buy designer sneakers and handbags and sportscars in Norway too lol. The majority of the planet lives in free market capitalist societies. Yes...there are different degrees of government intervention from country to country. But free markets are running the world.
This is what I was referring to above. The common use of 'capitalism' and the way people understand it has been hijacked by idealogical agendas. So much so that I'm not convinced 90% of people who make anti-capitalist tweets have any clue what they're actually talking about.
legsdiamond Member since May 05th 2011 79620 posts
Wed Aug-02-17 10:29 AM
21. "i think most are speaking from a healthcare perspective" In response to Reply # 20
at least that's my theory. profiting off of drugs, raising pill prices, bankrupting folks over a surgery or illness.
I don't think anyone is opposed to someone selling goods.
I also think a lot of folks would be just as unhappy in these countries they fantasize about because that isn't the real issue.
IMO the real issue is our news cycle, entertainment and social media. Those vehicles push capitalism and make folks feel like they have to keep up with the joneses...
I wonder how many of these folks who hate capitilism are living a socialist lifestyle at home?
They still watch netflix, have nice tv's, look for sales and buy shit they don't really need.
**************** TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*
28. "RE: i think most are speaking from a healthcare perspective" In response to Reply # 21 Wed Aug-02-17 10:50 AM by denny
Countries that have socialized healthcare are still capitalist.
I think there's a very widespread misconception of what 'overthrowing capitalism' would look like. In fact....I think (could be wrong)....currently there is not ONE SINGLE COUNTRY that does not have some form of capitalism in their economic structure. And the large majority are MOSTLY capitalist. If you are older than 16 and espouse the over-throwing of capitalism you are either some sort of global anarchist or under-informed.
Shaun Tha Don Member since Nov 19th 2005 18289 posts
Tue Aug-08-17 04:31 PM
93. "None. As much as they claim to hate capitalism, they're not" In response to Reply # 21
dying to trade places with a Cuban or a North Korean. They got it too good for that.
>I wonder how many of these folks who hate capitilism are >living a socialist lifestyle at home? > >They still watch netflix, have nice tv's, look for sales and >buy shit they don't really need. > >
Atillah Moor Member since Sep 05th 2013 13825 posts
Wed Aug-02-17 11:39 AM
40. "go there and see for yourself what I mean by consumerism " In response to Reply # 20 Wed Aug-02-17 11:50 AM by Atillah Moor
The lifestyle and culture despite their being "capitalist" when it comes to goods and services is still a somewhat spartan one from what I saw when I was there for close to three months.
but they buy designer sneakers and handbags and sportscars in Norway too lol
Not saying they don't buy name brand shit but you may be hard pressed to find a closet full of jordans that have been worn once or 3 cars for 1 person
57. "Ok I'll cede there's a cultural difference there." In response to Reply # 40 Wed Aug-02-17 04:44 PM by denny
But how is that relevant to the fact that the privileges we share are attributable to free market capitalism? The same basic improvements in quality of life experienced in Norway are ALSO attributable to free markets regardless of any cultural differences in mass consumerism. Agian.....look at this graph:
67. "It's Socialism due to the high taxation and sharing of wealth" In response to Reply # 57
EVERYTHING is spread out. Health care is one part of it, but then there's free education and government involvement in every sector. Shit, alcohol is run by the government here. Sweden is by no means a Capitalist country. Sometimes I get baffled at how people don't have that mindset.
Naturally companies/people chase money, but the system doesn't use that eagerness to profit as justification for bullshit like we do in the US.
70. "Respectfully.....my google search contradicts your characterization." In response to Reply # 67 Thu Aug-03-17 07:59 AM by denny
I can't purport to be an expert on Sweden....but they have free markets.
Perhaps this is leading to a semantical argument?
Our government runs alcohol distribution in Canada too. I'm not familiar with this being any criteria that purports us to not being capitalist. I have a hard time wrapping my head around companies like Skype, Spotify and Minecraft being called 'socialist companies' simply because they are taxed at a high rate. Again...this may lead us to a debate of semantics. Is there a magical tax rate that we can identify as a threshold between capitalism and socialism?
I'm curious though. I crudely googled 'Is sweden socialist or capitalist?' and my results contradict your characterization. In an attempt to avoid cherry-picking...I'll simply link the first 5 results without prejudice:
Looking at these and the rest of the results....there certainly seems to be some contention. But I didn't find ONE link arguing that Sweden is a socialist country. As noted above...even socialistworker.com argues that Sweden is not a socialist state. The large majority of the links, from both sides of the left/right, seem to argue that Sweden is inaccurately perceived to be socialist.
We should keep in mind...we're also identifying what's characterized as the MOST socialist state in all of Europe. And it doesn't seem to be a convincing one.
81. "Sweden has a living wage, single payer healthcare, high AF taxes." In response to Reply # 70
By any definition that America could feasibly become socialist--that is to say implementing even the furthest left policies that are remotely close to being on the table--it is a socialist country.
And you will know MY JACKET IS GOLD when I lay my vengeance upon thee.
83. "Those policies do not negate an underlying capitalistic policy." In response to Reply # 81 Sat Aug-05-17 10:06 PM by denny
What I've learned from this thread....Americans have a very skewed perception of what constitutes socialism and what constitutes capitalism from the rest of the world. No lie.
Free market capitalism has literally freed the world from it's chains of death and curruption and oppression. Life expectancy in 1800 trended somewhere around 40 in the RICHEST countries of the world. It's 20 years higher in the POOREST countries right now. Within 200 years. WHAT A CHANGE! Free markets have provided with us with everything a currently living sane person would acknowledge as a privilege of time and circumstance.
legsdiamond Member since May 05th 2011 79620 posts
Wed Aug-02-17 10:11 AM
18. "don't shake your head at me. " In response to Reply # 12
**************** TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*
29. "I live in a social democracy." In response to Reply # 26 Wed Aug-02-17 11:00 AM by denny
I also live in a capitalist society. Do you think those two things don't co-exist? Because they do. In EVERY first-world country in the world.
I suggest reading about what capitalism actually IS instead of depending on whatever the hell the impression you got from leftist political rhetoric. I'm not trying to insult you. But honestly...just type it into wikipedia. I think you have some misconceptions.
58. "I think there's a Canadian/American thing going on here." In response to Reply # 30 Wed Aug-02-17 04:53 PM by denny
Which is contributing to my shock. Just googling stuff in relation to this....I'm realizing that Americans refer to Canada and European countries as 'socialist' countries. I honestly didn't know that. Just to let you know.....we don't call ourselves 'socialist countries' in Canada and Europe. Like Damali's post below....it says 'I want to move to a socialist country'. I'm realizing in america this could mean Denmark or Canada or Norway and again...I honestly didn't know you guys defined it that way. I'd argue that definition is unique to America though. When a Canadian hears 'I want to move to a socialist country' we interpret that as like Cuba or Venezuela.
And I'm also kinda deducing here that Americans don't really think of other western nations as 'capitalist' which seems absurd to me.
79. "it's funny that's brought up as an argument by both sides" In response to Reply # 10
when you talk about the rest of the world not being violent, white folks wanna tell you how racially homogeneous the rest of the world is (which in many cases is not true). then on the other end of things we have your statement. i think that a lot of with the opposition of government programs now for sure, so maybe you're onto something.
And you will know MY JACKET IS GOLD when I lay my vengeance upon thee.
78. "shades and nuances there" In response to Reply # 7
the reality is that the industrialized world and many parts of the developing world are hybrid systems, including our own. obviously we have social programs and redistributive taxation. some places take those concepts further and introduce others. but there are capitalistic elements to places like canada, sweden, norway, germany, finland, france, etc. it is about striking the right balance. we aren't doing it.
And you will know MY JACKET IS GOLD when I lay my vengeance upon thee.
61. "I'm guessing you see the irony here too. " In response to Reply # 54 Wed Aug-02-17 05:27 PM by denny
There's not even a post about Venezuela on the first page of OKP. For this post to be made without reference to what's happening there RIGHT NOW is pretty crazy. But pseudo-intellectuals who spend time sloganeering....finding new words that rhyme with capitalism.....don't actually read and aren't actually informed. That's why they opt for extremely simplified worldviews that can be expressed on a single placard. And I'd guess they don't even care about what's happening in Venezuela because they're narcissists by nature.
80. "you can have socialistic elements in non-communist, non-facsist states" In response to Reply # 61
yes, we know that replacing the wealth of the monty burns of the world with an all-powerful, inevitably corrupt state is bad. that doesn't mean all socialist governments or all socialistic facets of government are ipso facto dysfunctional.
i said the same thing to socialist friends who are still trying to defend venezuela. it's very simple, condemning a dictatorship that is horribly run and a total clusterfuck does not mean you've abandoned your principles, it just means you are a decent human being. similarly though we can't paint with a broad brush and say that any and all socialism will become north korea or maduro's venezuela. if things are implemented incrementally and judiciously, it's a lot different than some populist dictator shaking the whole foundation fo a country.
And you will know MY JACKET IS GOLD when I lay my vengeance upon thee.
8. "It has been the problem but" In response to Reply # 0
you got negros running around here with European brands aka surnames talking bout capitalism is great and meanwhile statistically at the bottom group wise economically while being the most exploited.
24. "Huh?" In response to Reply # 15 Wed Aug-02-17 10:42 AM by denny
I don't know what you're talking about.
I'll give you an example of what I'm talking about though. Black Americans are richer than Haitians. I'm not going to list every single nationality but there's alot more lol.
legsdiamond Member since May 05th 2011 79620 posts
Wed Aug-02-17 10:49 AM
27. "please don't bam this post up with this bullshit" In response to Reply # 24
**************** TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*
33. "My bullshit is thick?" In response to Reply # 31
It was asserted that black Americans are at the bottom of the economic hierarchy in regards to capitalism. Not only factually incorrect....it's egregious. I could name hundreds of nationalities/ethnicities that are below black Americans in the global capitalist hierarchy and this is quantifiable. Not a matter of perception.
45. "who the hell brought up GLOBAL economy?" In response to Reply # 33 Wed Aug-02-17 01:43 PM by The3rdOne
especially when the majority of the world don't even operate on the economy model that the USA runs....
the original premise of the post that Musa was referring to was 'does capitalism work for us blacks IN america'??
I can give a fuck about how much more black americans make more than haitians....but if $14 million of black american dollars go to the church every week, and have black american dollars not circulate in black owned businesses and banks, but we don't have the producers to show for it, that only makes blacks good at being capitalized ON inside of capitalism...
But you gonna act like you didn't know this because you are canadian....
The last time you took a shit you used toilet paper and the toilet flushing mechanism worked. You probably have a favorite sports team that you watch on colored flat screen televisions or regularly go on leisurely afternoons to the movie theatre to watch blockbuster films. You have flown in an airplane....in the SKY. You have driven a car. You have gone to a hospital where the lights work and they have advanced technology that prolongs your life. You eat food that can't be naturally produced on the land you live on. If you have kids....they were expected to survive childbirth without much concern. You can READ what's written on your cellphone. There are people who are trying to cross ocean channels on driftwood in the attempt to live as an illegal immigrant in your country.
Like I said. It's pathological. 'Capitalized on us' lol. I wish that citizens of Haiti could enjoy the same privileges we have. But I'm extremely grateful when I compare my lot in life to their's. I think America should adopt more socialist policies like single payer health care and I hope you guys get it. I had NO money when my daughter was born but they gave me a little card I could use for ANY illness she might suffer from. Money doesn't even cross our minds here if someone gets sick and it's a beautiful thing. But I'm also not naive to the fact that free markets are why we live with privileges that are literally unprecedented in human history.
36. "The premise was that black americans are at the bottom." In response to Reply # 32 Wed Aug-02-17 11:19 AM by denny
It is egregiously false. They are nowhere close to the bottom.
I mean...what exactly are you suggesting? That Black Americans are the poorest people in the world? Those are just different words for saying 'they are at the bottom of the capitalist hierarchy'. If you don't think Black Americans are the poorest people in the world....then we agree. If you do think Black Americans are the poorest people in the world.....you are shockingly uninformed.
62. "I think I'm being pretty clear." In response to Reply # 44 Wed Aug-02-17 05:39 PM by denny
Black Americans are not at the bottom of the capitalist hierarchy. They're actually above the mean and that's quantifiably evident. I know this is sacrilege in certain idealogical bubbles (which John Mcwhorter cleverly characterizes as being more like scripture than intellectual analysis).....but Black Americans currently benefit from american capitalism. There are no Americans who do not benefit from capitalism in regards to quality of life parameters.
In regards to post 15. I THINK I know what you're getting at but I think you either had a typo or you're missing a word. In anycase...you typed 'because you perceive that black Americans have the largest consumer to production and supply ratio??' I assume by 'production and supply' you mean OWNERSHIP of production? Feel free to clarify and I'll respond.
**************** TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*
88. "i'm still researching that, honestly" In response to Reply # 22
that's why i'm not ready to leave yet
i've heard great things about some of the Nordic countries...particularly Sweden and Switzerland..but i'm thinking its so damn white and cold...
but I will visit
Auckland New Zealand is on my list of places to check out as well... not necessarily because of socialism..it just keeps popping up on lists of great places to live
seasoned vet Member since Jul 29th 2008 6035 posts
Wed Aug-02-17 12:04 PM
42. "RE: What the unrealistic expectations ?" In response to Reply # 39
people are people people can be selfish, greedy, and lack empathy corporations are run by people corporations without proper oversight do exactly what i expect them to do
>people are people >people can be selfish, greedy, and lack empathy
True
>corporations are run by people >corporations without proper oversight do exactly what i expect >them to do > >im not a big 'well the SHOULD....' type of person >
Proper oversight goes against the whole free market hands off rhetoric
and in the 1930s much of the American public realized that. Communism was starting to look real attractive. FDR pushed the New Deal (socialism w/a tainch of communism but all gussied up in capitalism) to keep the ppl from revolting. he was not about that guillotine life. he wasn't having it.
that's the last time the ppl flirted w/the idea of getting rid of capitalism. if we try it now there's no way it'll happen. it's here to stay.
the only way we get rid of it is if there's a severe 'natural' disaster that renders the entire economy dead and in need of a reboot. and it would only be killed off (capitalism) if none of the major players or systems that sustain it are able to be rebooted in that situation.
if getting rid of capitalism requires the ppl to support revolution and actually, you know, DO stuff it won't happen. we like our lives too much and what's on the other side of revolution is unpredictable. look at how that shit turned out in the USSR. it was FUCKED. Up. except for a handfull of ppl who kept living like czars.
Shaun Tha Don Member since Nov 19th 2005 18289 posts
Tue Aug-08-17 04:03 PM
92. "Revolutions have been fairly predictable aside from the American one. " In response to Reply # 46
>we like our lives too much and what's on the other side of >revolution is unpredictable. look at how that shit turned out >in the USSR. it was FUCKED. Up. except for a handfull of ppl >who kept living like czars.
One regime gets overthrown in favor of an even more brutal regime whose claim to fame was being "for the people."
47. "RE: Are you ready to consider that capitalism is the real problem?" In response to Reply # 0
Capitalism is simply the recognition of property rights. So no. Not ready to give up the fruit of my labor or lay claim to the fruit of another's labor. You want to take wealth from people who have earned it through voluntary exchange and divert it to your preferred uses. That is theft, and it has no place in a civilized society.
"You want to take wealth from people who have earned it through voluntary exchange and divert it to your preferred uses. That is theft, and it has no place in a civilized society."
63. "RE: More then that" In response to Reply # 49
>"You want to take wealth from people who have earned it >through voluntary exchange and divert it to your preferred >uses. That is theft, and it has no place in a civilized >society." > >That's capitalism.
No. Capitalism is voluntary exchange of private property.
It is the difference between the economic means and the political means of Franz Oppenheimer.
50. "capitalism only 'worked' during the industrial age" In response to Reply # 0
if it ever worked at all, and we're beyond that now.
underemployment and unemployment is going to be the norm sooner than later and capitalism won't serve a society where most people are not involved in the production of goods and the handling of services.
51. "see: The New Deal." In response to Reply # 50 Wed Aug-02-17 03:27 PM by SoWhat
if some shit like that happens again (economic depression - millions of formerly enfranchised ppl reduced to poverty or too-near to it for their comfort) i expect they'll (the man, whitey, them) come up w/something to save it (capitalism aka they shit).
unless we keep getting a slew of idiot POTUSes and limp-dick Congresses who can't see what's coming or refuse to act on it. if they get caught slipping then the ppl just might get mad en
naw. LOL
the USA is just to big for that shit. i mean, geographically. the ppl are so spread out i don't know how revolution works here.
but that's why i'm not a revolutionary, huh?
it'll have to be a mostly newly styled revolution. one appropriate for this digital bullshit we live in. OR it'll be precipitated by the collapse of the digital nonsense.
auragin_boi Member since Aug 01st 2003 20939 posts
Wed Aug-02-17 03:39 PM
52. "Capitalism is driving innovation but innovation is driving down human" In response to Reply # 0 Wed Aug-02-17 03:40 PM by auragin_boi
necessity and that's the core problem. Where are the jobs when automation and tech have eliminated 85% of them?
Are big chunks of humanity just supposed to die out and those with the brightest ideas (and biggest wallets) are the only ones deserving of life?
Humanity won't go quietly. So either we figure out a way to take care of us...all of us or ELE's (wars) on deck (probably after the robots enslave us for our rich masters).
60. "Agreed." In response to Reply # 52 Wed Aug-02-17 05:19 PM by denny
Even the most ardent capitalists will accept more socialist policies. When half the population is out of work because of technological advances....the ONLY way rich people will be able to protect their property will be to provide universal basic incomes to those unemployed. People will not starve to death in those types of numbers in the geographic proximity of wealth. Universal basic incomes will be the only way to prevent a complete dismantling of law and order.
The idealogical shift is already happening. Conservative economists and publications are already starting to advocate for the consideration and discussion of UBIs. That would have never happened 20 years ago. It's basic self-preservation.
One will have to decide 'do I want billions of dollars with millions of starving people surrounding my mansion ready to pounce? Or do I want millions of dollars surrounded by people who have their basic living requirements satisfied?'
I'm living in a Socialist country and LOVING life. Shit is insane. I think every person should live like this. Stress free for once. And if you want to grind, you grind (like I do). Otherwise you just do you and you good.
71. "Why are you grinding?" In response to Reply # 66
Do you get to keep the money you make? Doesn't sound like what I refer to as 'socialist' if you do. You are living in Nordic capitalism and there's a historical explanation for why the conditions you are enjoying exist. Mostly based on the implementation of free markets and tariff-reduced imports during the last 150 years. Those are capitalist policies not socialist.
legsdiamond Member since May 05th 2011 79620 posts
Thu Aug-03-17 08:43 AM
72. "and you have to pay 51% in taxes " In response to Reply # 71
plus you get quality HC and a shit load of time off compared to most American companies for Paternity leave.
480 days per child which they can take until the child is 8 years old. 80% PAID Paternity leave bruh. Not maternity, Paternity. That's huge.
Folks in the US are paying 50K a year for daycare for 2 kids. 50K bruh
Sweden has a monthly child allowance of roughly $130 per child.
Free university
Free public bus rides for parents of children in most Swedish cities.
These are the things I think most folks are talking about but please continue to be an ass by preaching to the choir
**************** TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*
84. "RE: capitalism as we know it will die when half the jobs are automated" In response to Reply # 77
have you looked into UBI much? seeing some really interesting things being rolled out in various areas, plus seeing non-Gov linked UBI's gaining traction
___________________________ He has the confidence of Vernon Maxwell on a yayo binge.
86. "Didn't read the article...I will...but the issue to me is human nature....." In response to Reply # 0 Mon Aug-07-17 10:57 AM by Seven
....was having a similar discussion with some friends the other night.
Any system or ism can and will eventually be corrupted. Look around. Religion is good and bad...because of human nature. Socialism Feminism....you name it
Couldn't it just be our nature as human beings? Couldn't 'good' people make any system work?
**************** TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*
91. "I am not sure how you get iphones without capitalism" In response to Reply # 0
Like how do you organize large amounts of people to do discreet task, as part of a supply chain to ultimate create complex innovative products?
1 billion people have been taken out of extreme poverty in the last 20 years and I think a lot of that has to do with capitlistic economic development.
Capitalism is definitely part of the problem, but I feel like a few tweaks and It'll be alright. Raise the marginal tax rate on the wealthiest to fund improvement of the lives at the bottom and call it a day.
Unchecked reckless pursuit of profit at the expense of 95 percent of the country is the problem. You need some form of capitalism but not this reckless baby boomer BS. No offense to Janey by the way, she cool. Everbody else that fosters that mentality can kick rocks chocking on all the dicks on their way down the hill.
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