To children.

Yep




what yal new age knowitall abusive muhfuggahs gotta to this?

I pray yal stop abusing yals kids




http://www.pbs.org/newshour/updates/column-why-you-should-never-use-timeouts-on-your-kids/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=pbsofficial&utm_campaign=newshour


When our daughter was 5 and really pushing our buttons — emotionally speaking — my husband and I decided to take a one-day parenting class. (It turns out when you get two strong-willed people together, they create a strong-willed child. Who knew?)

Prior to the class, whenever Maxine behaved “inappropriately,” we would impose a short timeout. If that didn’t work, we’d take away a toy or privilege. Sometimes, a tantrum would ensue and more privileges would be lost, but these measures would always, eventually, bring an end to the offending behavior. Still, we felt drained and exhausted by the volume and frequency of these tantrums and had a hard time keeping our frustration under wraps. We hoped the class might give us some reassurance.

Instead, we got a bombshell.

We’d all thought that spanking was the big no-no; turns out we were setting the bar very low.

Not 15 minutes into the eight-hour class, certified parenting instructor Linda Hatfield, who runs a Southern California program calledParenting from the Heart, explained that decades of neuroscience and social research have shown that timeouts and other methods of punishment are not only ineffective in steering the behavior of children but outright damaging.

But… but… but… I thought. We’ve been giving our kid timeouts for years.

I glanced around the room at the other parents, all of whom shared similar looks of shock on their faces. We’d all thought that spanking was the big no-no; turns out we were setting the bar very low.

READ MORE: How to navigate the Santa myth

Originated by psychologist B.F. Skinner, timeouts are a form of light punishment in which a child is placed in a certain spot for a set period of time. Often, the child is made to stay “in timeout,” even if it requires restraint, and is ignored for the duration.

All punishments are ineffective, Hatfield went on to say, because the vast majority of kids don’t misbehave; they behave. They behave like kids. They don’t do things to be bad; they do things because those things are age-appropriate, or because they’re still learning, or because they’re not getting some basic need met. Maybe they are hungry or tired; maybe they are overstimulated or overwhelmed; maybe they need a hug. Or maybe they just don’t know how to process whatever emotion they’re feeling.

Punishment in any form is harmful, because “it takes the core need of the child… and uses it as a bargaining chip.”

“All behavior,” Hatfield said, “is communication.”

Look, I know this is difficult for a lot of parents to contemplate or even believe. Some people swear by the timeout! But, at some point, we must accept that even though we all love our kids and want what’s best for them, parenting can’t be a strictly intuitive endeavor. Sometimes we need to listen,really listen, to the experts and the science — and both are telling us it’s time to quit punishing our children.

Two of the most well-known of these experts are Daniel J. Siegel and Tina Payne Bryson, bestselling authors of “The Whole-Brain Child: 12 Revolutionary Strategies to Nurture Your Child’s Developing Mind,” who have written extensively on this topic.

But there are others. Vanessa LaPointe is a British Columbian child psychologist and the author of “Discipline without Damage.”LaPointe works with children who have severe behavioral issues, and she told me that the first thing she asks parents is: What sort of discipline do you use?

READ MORE: The case for having just one kid

“Nine times out of 10,” she said, “the response has something to do with timeouts.”

Punishment in any form is harmful, LaPointe said, because “it takes the core need of the child… and uses it as a bargaining chip.” A child has a lot of core needs, she said, but one of the most vital is emotional attachment — the very thing parents sacrifice when they place their kids in timeouts.

“The more you use punishments to respond to behavior, the more you are actually escalating behavior and creating a reality where you have more behavior problems,” LaPointe said.

In fact, I had no trouble finding parenting experts exasperated by the whole pattern. Because, as Hatfield told me so long ago, when you yell or threaten or impose timeouts or deprive your children of things they enjoy, your children (1) feel resentful and (2) stop communicating. They stop telling you things you should know; they lie to escape punishment; their self-esteem suffers; they act out more. And those core needs? They’re still not being met.

Tracy Cutchlow, author of an excellent parenting book called “Zero to Five,” said punishments create kids who constantly look outside themselves for approval and that can have major consequences.

“Studies show that children who are punished are less able to internalize moral lessons,” Cutchlow said. “Internalizing is what allows kids to act morally when no one is looking. The kids fear getting in trouble, but instead of acting in a different way, they try not to get caught. It hurts your relationship with your child. And when they’re teens, that relationship is your main, maybe only, source of influence.”

When it was over, and my husband and I returned home to Maxine, we no longer saw a defiant child who was trying to push our buttons. We saw a 5-year-old girl with a 5-year-old brain and a 5-year-old’s heart.

It makes sense, doesn’t it? I mean, can you imagine your spouse trying to make you a more patient person by taking away your coffee? (Or your wine?) It wouldn’t change your behavior — although you may fake it for a while out of sheer desperation! — and it would torpedo your relationship.

A few weeks ago, I read a story on Slate by parenting columnist Elissa Strauss: “A Child Development Expert Says Parents Should Never Punish Their Kids. Really?” In it, Strauss questions the legitimacy of (yet another) researcher showing (yet again) that timeouts are harmful to children. Dr. Alan Kazkin, director of the Yale Parenting Center, had been quoted in the Atlantic about tamping down tantrums through role playing and positive reinforcement, not timeouts.

Here’s Strauss:

“Kazdin’s theory is appealing. Who wouldn’t want to gain entry to this parenting Elysium where moms and dads need only administer encouraging observations and loving smiles to keep their children in check? Still, I’m having a hard time buying it. This is not only because of the whiff of too-good-be-true that his approach carries, nor my natural resistance to being told that I am doing things wrong, but because there are times when gentle punishments like time-outs feel absolutely appropriate. Also, in my experience, they work.”

Not only does Strauss name one of the most common excuses — “It works!” — for sticking to timeouts, but she does so in light of scientific evidence to the contrary. This is a parenting reporter (and a good one at that), and still, Strauss dismisses Kadzin’s work as “theory” because what Kadzin knows through science doesn’t jive with what Strauss “feels” to be true through experience. (Why did climate-change denial suddenly pop into my head? Weird.)

Can you imagine your spouse trying to make you a more patient person by taking away your coffee?

Parents love to do “what works.” And I admit that I’ve often said to my parent-friends, “Every child is different. Do what works for yours.” But this can’t be a blanket statement — especially when it comes to discipline. Just because something “works” to curb behavior in the moment doesn’t make it right or harmless. Yelling, threatening, berating, shaming, isolating and hitting are all incredibly effective in getting kids to obey your rules. That something “works” is one factor in deciding on discipline — but it’s one of many.

That daylong parenting class was a game-changer for me.

When it was over, and my husband and I returned home to Maxine, we no longer saw a defiant child who was trying to push our buttons. We saw a 5-year-old girl with a 5-year-old brain and a 5-year-old’s heart.

“We’re not going to do timeouts anymore,” we told Maxine. “We’re not going to take away your toys anymore, either. No more punishments.”

I will never, ever forget the wide smile of surprise and gratitude that spread across her little face.


____________

Dallas Cavericks LETS GO!!

and in their bedrooms while I can pretend they don't exist for an hour or so.

Seriously though...sometimes it's not for the child's good that they get banished somewhere I am not. It's for me too. I beleive in the child experiencing real consequences. If they say something that is hurtful to me....there's only so much explaining I should do. Sometimes you just have to 'act' like a hurt person and let them see how that feels. They usually start following me around trying to cheer me up. It's essentially a guilt-trip and I think it works so I'm sticking by keeping it in the arsenal.

being punished for wanting to be close to someone they love

Just horrible

Smh
____________

Dallas Cavericks LETS GO!!

They can be assholes y'know. They say meaner shit than any reasonable adult says on a regular basis.

For example...Have you bitten someone recently? My 5 year old did that last week because he didn't want to share a soccer ball.

I suffered thru the abuse of timeouts in gradeschool

There's no telling how that has effected me as an adult

Would u go make ur wife or girlfriend stand in the corner if she were being annoying

My gawd u neanderthal


____________

Dallas Cavericks LETS GO!!

I don't do timeouts. If one of the kids is acting up (which means assaulting another kid, being mean, being sneaky, dishonest, etc) I might do some explaining. But my main problem with modern parenting is that the explaining never ends. We're basically treating kids like they're stupid.

At some point in time...the explanations need to stop and consequences need to be felt. Real life consequences.

Here's an example. My pops got me one of those mini-ball hoops to hook on the door frame when I was a kid. Put it up. I played with it a bit. He came in and said 'Hey give me a shot". i just ignored him and kept showing off/effing around...then whipped the ball at him and hit him in the nuts. He didn't say a word. He threw the ball down with great force and walked out of the room. That shit was more effective than any explanation he could have made. Lesson learned. If you want company and to hang out with other people....don't be a dick.

Mowadays...the modern parent would go on some sort of long-winded explanation blah blah blah with the kid actually not experiencing a real-life consequence. I make sure my kids 'get' what's happening. But I don't shield them from consequences. If you annoy me...I'm less likely to play with you. If you act immorally by hitting/lying....you are going to get ostracized. Show me don't tell me type of thing.

To call this abuse is laughable. If you lie at work you get fired and escorted off the premises. That's life.

Ur punishing them either way!

Stop!

That simple!
____________

Dallas Cavericks LETS GO!!

Pretend like you don't have feelings?

What if your 10 year old tells you to fuck off? Smile? Too often we're playing the martyr with our kids.

This is the problem....modern parents are denying their own egos so much. It's not hard. Just be a normal person. When someone (including a kid) makes you angry.....EXPRESS THAT ANGER. I've never hit a kid in my life. I've taken care of 10 to 15 of them for a substantial amount of time.

I don't helicopter parent at the park either. I brink a book and MIGHT look up if i hear a disruption. Might.

I am unique nowadays. I explain to my kid only if I think they actually need an explanation (which is not nearly as often as we tend to think nowadays). Other than that...I try to allow them to experience consequences. If you try for those advanced monkey bars...you might fall. I'm not gonna warn you. You can see for yourself. And that goes for just about everything else.

____________

Dallas Cavericks LETS GO!!

-The Knicks’ coaching search still includes a lone frontrunner, Kurt Rambis, whose qualifications for the position include a strong relationship with Jackson and a willingness to take the job.

Since 1976

the below issues:

1) A 7 year old not wanting to do homework.

2) Curious "touching" between a 5 year old girl and a 4 year old boy.

3) Finding the porn stash of an 11 year old boy.

4) Discovering that a 7 year old girl has been viewing 'twerk' videos on youtube and imitating the dancers.

5) An 8 year old who grew up "hood" but now lives in the burbs and starts to twerk everytime she dances because that's what she learned in her formative years.

6) A 6 year old who constantly says "I want _____" after you've explained to them repeatedly that they should ask for the things they want.

7) A typically obedient 4 year old being defiant at school to a teachers instructions.

8) Hitting, any age 4 through 8.

9) A 7 year old who throws a tantrum or goes into an extended sad state at EVERY siblings B-day party if THEY don't get a gift.

10) Disobedience or disagreement with instruction, any age 4 through 9.

____________

>1) A 7 year old not wanting to do homework.

We homeschool so it's not the same type of issue. They still have work to do but there aren't the same external pressures to perform. So if they don't want to do their work it becomes a question of what about the work itself they don't like. They'll likely start with what they'd rather be doing but you've got to get to the heart of why they don't want to be doing that thing and address it.

>2) Curious "touching" between a 5 year old girl and a 4 year
>old boy.

Related or not? There *can* still be a level of innocence to this at five, but otherwise more than being indicative of the child, it's indicative of the parent. What is the child absorbing from the parent that is being reflected in the child. Our youngest will still run around the house naked, but they wouldn't do it in front of other people. They have a sense of appropriate, but aren't ashamed of nudity.

>3) Finding the porn stash of an 11 year old boy.

Don't embarrass them but do figure out the source cause I mean they 11.

>4) Discovering that a 7 year old girl has been viewing 'twerk'
>videos on youtube and imitating the dancers.

*shrug* Kinda dealing with this with my eldest daughter. The internet is a dangerous thing. But twerk dancing on its own isn't necessarily a bad thing. I think in this case I'd be concerned about the unmediated access to the internet at 7.

>5) An 8 year old who grew up "hood" but now lives in the burbs
>and starts to twerk everytime she dances because that's what
>she learned in her formative years.

Yeah you're talking about school kids not your kids. I can't really say how to deal with someone elses kid in a social situation.

>6) A 6 year old who constantly says "I want _____" after
>you've explained to them repeatedly that they should ask for
>the things they want.

It's gonna happen. Get over it.

>7) A typically obedient 4 year old being defiant at school to
>a teachers instructions.

They are 4. They are allowed.

>8) Hitting, any age 4 through 8.

You gotta separate them and get to the heart of the action which is more than likely not the person they hit.

>9) A 7 year old who throws a tantrum or goes into an extended
>sad state at EVERY siblings B-day party if THEY don't get a
>gift.

Goodie bags?

>10) Disobedience or disagreement with instruction, any age 4
>through 9.

Authority is meant to be challenged. I made a post about this.

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Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." � Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

>>1) A 7 year old not wanting to do homework.
>
>We homeschool so it's not the same type of issue. They still
>have work to do but there aren't the same external pressures
>to perform. So if they don't want to do their work it becomes
>a question of what about the work itself they don't like.
>They'll likely start with what they'd rather be doing but
>you've got to get to the heart of why they don't want to be
>doing that thing and address it.

Yeah, a public education carries different dynamics. Homeschooling controls the environment so there's less guess work for your family but everyone can't or doesn't prefer to in-house it. So I have variables as to 'type' of instruction, content, peer influence, etc.

But for the sake of discussion, let's say the reason is a lack of interest in the subject. My 7 year old, who's pretty good at math, doesn't like it because she thinks it's 'boring'. She prefers reading/English because there's a story to it. While I might explain the usefulness of math (money, science, and the things that math facilitates) to her = womp-womp-still boring. lol I get her to do all her homework though so my situation was just hypothetical.

>>2) Curious "touching" between a 5 year old girl and a 4 year
>>old boy.
>
>Related or not? There *can* still be a level of innocence to
>this at five, but otherwise more than being indicative of the
>child, it's indicative of the parent. What is the child
>absorbing from the parent that is being reflected in the
>child. Our youngest will still run around the house naked, but
>they wouldn't do it in front of other people. They have a
>sense of appropriate, but aren't ashamed of nudity.

Just general 'yours is different than mine and I don't have any experience dealing with yours' so there's curiosity to learn more about the differences, first hand. Let it be in the innocence realm.

>>3) Finding the porn stash of an 11 year old boy.
>
>Don't embarrass them but do figure out the source cause I mean
>they 11.

I knew of porn by 9 so...lol But my questions not in how they accessed it. Lets say they actively TRIED to get the access and succeeded. How do you handle that desire to get the access and what they are digesting via the porn. How would you manage that situation?


>>4) Discovering that a 7 year old girl has been viewing
>'twerk'
>>videos on youtube and imitating the dancers.
>
>*shrug* Kinda dealing with this with my eldest daughter. The
>internet is a dangerous thing. But twerk dancing on its own
>isn't necessarily a bad thing. I think in this case I'd be
>concerned about the unmediated access to the internet at 7.

Even with parental filters, 'dance' videos are hard to manage. And lots of them contain kids dancing in fashions (and to music) well above their age range. How do you address this with your eldest? I've recently had this discussion but it was in regard to my niece (who also prompted question #5). I was informed that her dances might invite the wrong kind of attention pretty soon as she's developing. But to her, it's just 'dancing'.

>>5) An 8 year old who grew up "hood" but now lives in the
>burbs
>>and starts to twerk everytime she dances because that's what
>>she learned in her formative years.
>
>Yeah you're talking about school kids not your kids. I can't
>really say how to deal with someone elses kid in a social
>situation.

Well it was family that I'm pretty close to as I mentioned earlier...my niece.

>>6) A 6 year old who constantly says "I want _____" after
>>you've explained to them repeatedly that they should ask for
>>the things they want.
>
>It's gonna happen. Get over it.

Not sure I view this the same. Mainly because I don't like being commanded to do things based on their whims. Plus, it's downright rude. I ask them to do things, they should do the same. And life doesn't work that way either. You can't just say to someone "I want ____" and expect them to deliver. As soon as they learn there's a method to getting what you desire, be it hard work, commitment, preparation or simply kindness enough to ask, the better off they'll be for it.

As a parent, I can't 'get over' this one. I think it has a ripple effect.

>>7) A typically obedient 4 year old being defiant at school
>to
>>a teachers instructions.
>
>They are 4. They are allowed.

Huh? So a 4 year old should be allowed to be defiant to an authority figure simply because they choose to? No teacher would tolerate that. Please expound on this one.

>>8) Hitting, any age 4 through 8.
>
>You gotta separate them and get to the heart of the action
>which is more than likely not the person they hit.

And why not? Anger manifest itself in different forms, violence being one. And violence is learned in our culture from birth. There is no way to shelter a child from that reality nor would I choose to for their sake to live in it. For example, my daughter is the sweetest thing under the sun and isn't typically violent or aggressive but there's been a few occasions where her brother was being an annoyance and after getting to her boiling point, she'd push or tap him on the arm. I've had to check the behavior but I was very surprised she went there as opposed to telling me so I can deal with it, like she does most times.

>>9) A 7 year old who throws a tantrum or goes into an
>extended
>>sad state at EVERY siblings B-day party if THEY don't get a
>>gift.
>
>Goodie bags?

Goodie bags are a staple. That's not what this is. lol They want the gift/gifts being given to the b-day celebrant.

>>10) Disobedience or disagreement with instruction, any age 4
>>through 9.
>
>Authority is meant to be challenged. I made a post about
>this.

Challenged with purpose and reason...yes. Unfortunately, children aren't as skilled at relaying those convincingly.

So let's say it's regarding bed time...and the child in question prefers to stay up very late, playing with toys and being VERY loud in whatever space you're in. Let's say they have an infant sibling who needs quiet to rest and you have an early day at work and need to rest yourself. And your eldest child refuses to go to bed, refuses to quiet their voice and will follow you throughout the house where you relocate to. You accept this disruption?

I try to use reason with my children whenever there's opportunity to make them understand something. But again, with children, it doesn't ALWAYS connect. There has to be some consequence to actions because...that's life.

____________

------
“There is no fate that cannot be surmounted by scorn.” -Albert Camus

that's not long enough?


U going to deny climate change too while ur at it?!


____________

Dallas Cavericks LETS GO!!

If not held up to scrutiny that's just words. Decades (how many?) of studies of what and by whom? What was the sample size, what controls did they use, what was the hypothesis tested ... etc

Because without that information that's just words.

The other study spanned 5 decades (more specific number) studied 160,000 children (more specific number)

Here's there abstract
Spanking remains a common, if controversial, childrearing practice in the United States. In this article, I pair mounting research indicating that spanking is both ineffective and harmful with professional and human rights opinions disavowing the practice. I conclude that spanking is a form of violence against children that should no longer be a part of American childrearing.

Meanwhile the link you shared isn't currently working, doesn't lead to research only books by authors, prescribes other behaviors rather focuses on analyzing it's on hypothesis, which isn't even defined.

------
“There is no fate that cannot be surmounted by scorn.” -Albert Camus

bet she is scrambling to throw some shit together

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

I'll follow most things if there's data behind it. If not I ask for the data.
If you believe something just follow the scientific method to validate it either you'll have an answer or a new question. But there's really no point in not following it.

------
“There is no fate that cannot be surmounted by scorn.” -Albert Camus

______________________________________

Everything looks like Oprah kissing Harvey Weinstein these days

___________________
"So this is what everybody's always talking about! Diablo! If only I'd known. The beauty! The beauty!"

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

Great job touching the stove again Bobby, Gold star for your boo boo!!!

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

We're all right!

-The Knicks’ coaching search still includes a lone frontrunner, Kurt Rambis, whose qualifications for the position include a strong relationship with Jackson and a willingness to take the job.

______________________________________

Everything looks like Oprah kissing Harvey Weinstein these days

.
.
.

Since 1976

*skatin' the rings of saturn*


..and miles to go before i sleep...

We don't use the language in our house, but with three kids we do have the need to separate kids to deal with a situation. So go to your room for a minute is quite common and we'll try to channel their emotion into self reflection rather than punishment. It isn't just a timeout because you've done something wrong. Using that termanology becomes a trigger for 'you've done something wrong' and so often from their perspective they haven't necessarily done anything wrong. If it's just issuing a timeout you'll never get to the root.

To parallel, we'll also recognize our oen mistakes. I've said I'm sorry to my kids so many times. It's effective because it humanizes me to them and in turn makes my requests that they reflect on themselves easier to digest.

The most important thing is the conversation after incident and the child's willingness to divulge where they are with the events. Anything that causes them to clam up is going to be a problem whether immediately or down the line.

So it's not about praise. It's about listening in a way that allows them to self reflect and come to solid understandings of behavior on their own.

But that takes time, and what no one seems to want to say is that we've strucured our society in such a way that parents in general don't have the time to listen to their kids, and even more have been enabled into thinking that they don't have to. So authoritarian style parenting is the socially supported norm, becaus you don't have time for kids shit so they better listen to what you say or else. Meanwhile your adult life is a complete wreck, making you emotionally unstable. Given that type of power, that little time, it's difficult *not* to slip into abusive patterns.

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." � Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

IMO at least. Isolation also seems like it's saying they were wrong about something and honestly, I'm ok with that.

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

You have to separate them. I'll take one and the mrs. will take the other. Often we'll just sit with them in silence for a bit, often times cuddling them. Then we'll get into what happened listening to what it is they have to say and helping them work through their process. That's not a timeout.

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." � Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

Because the word is just the word its really the actions that count. But when it just becomes a word - 'timeout' for which there is a specified response of - go be where *no one is going to talk to you because you were bad* - that shit don't work and is damaging.

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." � Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

whether we sit with them, talk so 65th them, hold them, etc... we stopped them from doing what they wanted because it as wrong.

ionno, i,just think it's parents reinventing the wheel to make themselves feel better about disciplining their children.

I fail to see how this makes a child feel like they aren't being punished for doing something wrong.

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

>whether we sit with them, talk so 65th them, hold them,
>etc... we stopped them from doing what they wanted because it
>as wrong.

Look at my reply in #37 and how it differs from stopping them from doing what they wanted because it was wrong.

Don't get me wrong I'm not the perfect parent or anywhere near. As I said somewhere else I've had to apologize for shit I've done to my kids more times than I'd like to admit, but through it all I think we've come up with a form of communication that is allowing them to grow into themselves really well without the guilt.

>ionno, i,just think it's parents reinventing the wheel to make
>themselves feel better about disciplining their children.
>
>I fail to see how this makes a child feel like they aren't
>being punished for doing something wrong.

Because at the end of it they feel like they have been listened to. That's the only goal. if they feel like they are being listened to they will talk. If they are talking I'm doing my job.

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." � Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

When I taught, timeout was more about the separation and cycling down of kids than the punishment of them. And my co teachers or I would always make our way over to them and talk. Always. It helped them understand why they were separated, and helped them to see that we weren't trying to hurt them.

Everything in life is accomplished via relationships, and it's funny we don't view our interactions with children thru that lens.

they own

=======================================
Coolin...

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." � Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

but you must remember, you're dealing with children who normally can't rationalize emotion and consequence and mesh them.

For example, I have both success and failure at these type of discussions:

Child A snatches toy from child B.

Me: Child A, that was not very nice. Would you like it if someone snatched a toy from you?

Child A: *sad face* No.

Me: Then next time, try asking for the toy. If that person says no, ask can you play with it when they are done.

Child A: Ok.

^^^Child A follows my advice sometimes, but sometimes also reverts back to snatching...no matter how many times we have this conversation. Also, on occasion, Child A's response might be:

"But IIIII want to play with it!"

Me: You'll have to wait your turn then.

Child A: *Pout, cry, moan, sad face*

and throwing in a caveat makes it even more likely that they won't connect the dots. Let's say it's the same scenario but child B is playing with a toy that was child A's. The convo changes here:

Child A: *sad face* No. BUT IT'S MY TOY!!!

Then I have to explain to child B that they should ask to play with child A's toy because they would want someone to ask to play with theirs and then to child A that it's ok to share but that it's also ok to make sure someone asks to play with their toys. But snatching is not ok.

I can sense that they pick up these discussions sometimes but waaaaaaaaaay more often than not someone will play with another's toy without asking and snatching is the result which leads to an argument/struggle.

^^^If you have to teach that lesson 10 times a month and not see it pay off, at some point you have to wonder if what you're doing is effective.

____________

Which is interesting because you seem to understand why they would fail when you say this:

>but you must remember, you're dealing with children who
>normally can't rationalize emotion and consequence and mesh
>them.

I've got to assume from the example that you're dealing with under 7's. They are selfish as fuck. And that is natural. Not all of them of course but them being selfish is not wrong, it's just where they are in their development.

And yes you do have to repeat yourself a thousand times, regardless. That's just going to happen. You can't expect them to get it just because you said it.

My wife is way better at the younger ages than I am. her approach has been t put herself into the play rather than overseeing it. So A and B are fighting about a toy she'd say well I want to play too. How can we work it out. And all three of them have to work together on a solution that works. It's not about the snatching behavior but demonstrating and communicating the ways that a situation can work by participating in it.

Again though, like I said above it's time dependant. HAving the time is hard, and kids tend to suffer for it.

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Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." � Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

>I've got to assume from the example that you're dealing with
>under 7's. They are selfish as fuck. And that is natural. Not
>all of them of course but them being selfish is not wrong,
>it's just where they are in their development.

I get that and I think I'm biased because my eldest was a breeze and seemed to understand things after we had a logical talk about them. Her siblings don't digest it as fast nor do they retain it as long.

>And yes you do have to repeat yourself a thousand times,
>regardless. That's just going to happen. You can't expect them
>to get it just because you said it.

i.e. "practice makes better" but as a parent you still question your methods based on effectiveness. I'm sure the best of us have wondered if our approach was off.

>My wife is way better at the younger ages than I am. her
>approach has been t put herself into the play rather than
>overseeing it. So A and B are fighting about a toy she'd say
>well I want to play too. How can we work it out. And all three
>of them have to work together on a solution that works. It's
>not about the snatching behavior but demonstrating and
>communicating the ways that a situation can work by
>participating in it.
>
>Again though, like I said above it's time dependant. HAving
>the time is hard, and kids tend to suffer for it.

I agree, if time was less scarce, I could be much more patient about these things and more involved as well.

____________

>I get that and I think I'm biased because my eldest was a
>breeze and seemed to understand things after we had a logical
>talk about them. Her siblings don't digest it as fast nor do
>they retain it as long.

Awwe man I went through the easy first child too, and yeah it's hard to adjust, but they are all different and have to be met where they are not where you want them to be.

>i.e. "practice makes better" but as a parent you still
>question your methods based on effectiveness. I'm sure the
>best of us have wondered if our approach was off.

There was an interview with the creators of blues clues here they explained why they would air the same episode multiple times. The gist of it was that kids learn from repetition. Seeing the same episode multiple times helps them retain the information. By the third or fourth time they know the episode and as such actually retained the information in it.

So I'd say it's not necessarily practice makes perfect but they need repeated reinforcement of ideas in order for them to stick. And that reinforcement needs to be consistent like the episode of the show is always the same. When things start changing they become less clear about what to retain and so they repeat the behavior.

>I agree, if time was less scarce, I could be much more patient
>about these things and more involved as well.

I really wish this was more the crux of the conversation about parenting. How to give parents the time to do better. Socially we put it off on the education system to do it but then the teachers are over worked and under resourced so the kids still don't get the time they need.


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Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." � Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

I used to feel that form of "punishment" was a breeze compared to getting a whoopin'.


Since 1976

I never got whoopins cause they looked and sounded like they hurt.

a timeout tho? easy breezy

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

if necessary,
my grandchildren will be disciplined
point blank...period!

lol

That shit reads like an onion article tho.

my avy: Deep in your heart, you know he's right: http://coreyrichardsonneedsajob.com/
my hustle: http://SupaSoulSounds.com

*RIP: John T. "220v" Richardson, Blessing Benson, and Dilla*

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." � Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

...by showing them that it's not only spanking that's getting frowned upon by these scientific studies.



Since 1976

------------------------------

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-The Knicks’ coaching search still includes a lone frontrunner, Kurt Rambis, whose qualifications for the position include a strong relationship with Jackson and a willingness to take the job.

--
Sometimes you have to look reality in the face and say 'No!'
-Ben (Reaper)

If you need any help, don't. Hesitate to ask.

Imma go home and hug my mama and daddy tonight

and I'm not 100% on board. Same with my teenager.

I get that the point is to not shame and humiliate your kid, and excessive punishment is dumb, no matter what the punishment is. But, I also have to prepare them for the real world where people make choices, and those choices have consequences, good and bad.

I do find it an interesting point, though, that punishment isn't the best way to get kids to behave when no one is looking. You definitely have to teach your kids. Sometimes however, i gotta put the little maniac in his bed to chill out for a minute so that i can talk to him and get the message through.

What I didn't get from the article was what they recommend someone do when a kid is in full on tantrum mode because he wants a blue gummy, but we only have orange ones left. I'm open to suggestions, though.

The article mentions science and studies, so I'd be curious to actually see what kind of research the author is referencing, because there aren't any specifics given really...

In a generation of swine, the one-eyed pig is king.
-Hunter S. Thompson

A tantrum is a child's last resort for being heard. And often it's not the issue at hand that they are not being heard about. It's interesting that everyone flips to the the telling and not to the listening.

My son had a full blown tantrum in the middle of Trader Joes. I had to physically remove him from the store. Not with anger not with the you gonna get it when we get home, but consoling him all the way out of the store until we're in a safe space so I could listen. It wasn't about the treat he wanted and knew he couldn't have. It was about how hard it had been for him with his illness and not being able to do what he wanted to do. We had gone to the store on the way home from the doctors. He was tired of being sick. Tired of being out and mad because he couldn't have what he wanted.

There was absolutely nothing wrong with his behavior, and I had to apologize for trying to drag him through that because it didn't take into account how he was feeling. He got to share all of the things he was going through and while it didn't get him the thing he thought he wanted it did give him the space to express what he needed.

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." � Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

kid is 3, so i can talk and reason to him all day long. I told him we didn't have any blue gummies and showed him we didn't have any blue gummies. His response? "I want blue!!!" on repeat. Then he threw himself on the ground and flipped out.

Now I'm not mad at him over it, he's 3, so pretty normal. But I gotta put him in a spot where he can chill out. Is that punishment? kind of... So boom go lay down in your bed for a minute and come back out when you've calmed down. I don't think it's a bad message to send to my kid, that he can't get what he wants just by wilin' out.

In a generation of swine, the one-eyed pig is king.
-Hunter S. Thompson

would kill their creativity

keep in mind tho, some okp's swore they didn't throw tantrums when they were toddlers

and their shit doesn't stink.


my daughter is 7 months and I dread the terrible 2's

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

In a generation of swine, the one-eyed pig is king.
-Hunter S. Thompson

What does the child think they are being sent to their room for?
"Just cause I wanted a blue gummy."
That's the three year old logic.

I'm with you for the most part in this particular example I'd just say go to the room with them. In this case the gummy bears are the distraction which is why you're sending them to the room away from them where they can 'calm down'. But expecting them to calm themselves down and figure out why they got sent to their room... ehhhh

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." � Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

if i go to the room with him, he'll keep up the drama. If he's left by himself, then he's like 'no point in continuing the drama' and wraps it up pretty quickly.

In a generation of swine, the one-eyed pig is king.
-Hunter S. Thompson

and I mean everything. They're 13 and 7 now. They're both piece of shit kids that no one in my family wants to watch. Maybe they'll turn into great people when they're adults.

I told my sister in law that I'm going to be the mean grandmother...

she goes, i'm going to be the grandma that says, go on, tear the house up until your parents get back - I'll be in my bed".

.
.
.