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stravinskian
Member since Feb 24th 2003
12240 posts
Mon Apr-11-16 11:35 AM

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"Presidential Primary Post 8: If they can make it there..."
Mon Apr-11-16 11:39 AM by stravinskian

          

Guess we've reached the usual 300-post trigger for a new politics thread.

New York coming up on the 19th. 95 delegates on the Rep side, 291 for the Dems (the Dems have a higher overall number of delegates, so they usually have bigger numbers). FiveThirtyEight's polling average currently has it Clinton 57, Sanders 40, but we've seen these margins thin and even flip. It'll probably be an ugly week. Must win for Sanders, I think they've even promised it. To start turning the pledged delegate race, he needs to win it big. On the other hand, it would be embarrassing for the Clinton campaign if they lost it, even by a small margin, so the media would go wild. We'll see how it goes. Debate this Thursday (April 14).

On the R side, Trump has a huge lead. He's flirting with 50% from what I hear, which might make it possible for him to sweep the delegates, which in turn might make it possible for him to end up with a delegate majority before the convention. Considering how the talk about convention procedures is going, that might be his only chance. The other news is that John Kasich is beating Cruz in NY. A strong second place (and a weaker Trump showing) might help his delegate count, making it more plausible that the convention would land on him as a consensus candidate. (Paul Ryan is clearly lobbying-by-not-lobbying-but-making-campaign-ads-anyway for that spot as well).

The rest of the major races (not sure how many of these we'll get through before needing a new thread):

April 26:
Maryland -- 38 R delegates, winner-take-most; 118 D (proportional, as always)
Pennsylvania -- 71 R WTM; 210 D
Connecticut -- 28 R (proportional); 70 D
Delaware -- 16 R winner-take-all; 31 D

May 3:
Indiana -- 57 R WTM; 92 D

May 10:
Nebraska -- 36 R winner-take-all; (Dem caucus already held)
West Virginia -- 34 R (proportional); 37 D

May 17:
Kentucky -- (Rep caucus already held); 61 D
Oregon -- 28 R; 74 Bernie Bros with gluten-free trail mix

June 7:
California -- 172 R WTM; FIVE HUNDRED AND FORTY SIX D
Other states -- who the hell cares...

  

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Topic Outline
Subject Author Message Date ID
how in the hell have the 7 of you ppl
Apr 11th 2016
1
It's fun to argue.
Apr 11th 2016
2
i guess so.
Apr 11th 2016
4
lol
Apr 11th 2016
3
ugh.
Apr 11th 2016
6
lol
Apr 11th 2016
7
panem et circenses
Apr 11th 2016
9
RE: how in the hell have the 7 of you ppl
Apr 11th 2016
15
      perfect^^^^
Apr 11th 2016
17
      Always thought Bugs was a smarmy fuck.
Apr 11th 2016
18
      lol awesome
Apr 11th 2016
19
      RE: how in the hell have the 7 of you ppl
Apr 11th 2016
24
      you know? lol
Apr 12th 2016
35
      and the uppercase Black duck is for Hillary lol
Apr 13th 2016
70
really hating the way the dems side is going at the moment
Apr 11th 2016
5
personality contest is ALL it's been since the first TV debate
Apr 11th 2016
8
What is this GOP family thing they're doing on CNN?
Apr 11th 2016
10
Well, Bernie's wife has been a pretty major surrogate, especially lately...
Apr 11th 2016
11
      The Palin treatment obviously sticks out.
Apr 11th 2016
12
Ya'll really gonna duck this 3X...?
Apr 11th 2016
13
I read it in the last post.
Apr 11th 2016
14
Michelle Alexander also cited Stone Mountain recently
Apr 12th 2016
34
Yeah, that's how I came across the article and pic linked
Apr 12th 2016
37
Yeah, it's a good article
Apr 12th 2016
46
^^^^
Apr 13th 2016
73
Did Blacks Really Endorse the 1994 Crime Bill? (swipe)
Apr 13th 2016
92
Anyone remember 3X the poster?
Apr 12th 2016
57
      I'd like to think he wouldn't even be supporting Bernie.
Apr 12th 2016
63
Clinton Campaign Accuses Sanders of Trying to Win Nomination (swipe)
Apr 11th 2016
16
LOL is this an onion article?
Apr 11th 2016
21
Yeah, Borowitz does this satirical column in the New Yorker.
Apr 11th 2016
22
      ok something in the back of my mind told me the new yorker
Apr 11th 2016
23
lol
Apr 11th 2016
30
Trying to wrap my head around any justification for the Kasich ending up...
Apr 11th 2016
20
The establishment needs to just let Cruz or Trump lose
Apr 11th 2016
25
RE: The establishment needs to just let Cruz or Trump lose
Apr 11th 2016
28
Whatever they do it's a guaranteed shitshow.
Apr 11th 2016
26
      The most likely version of this coming together
Apr 11th 2016
31
Bernie did the right thing and the wrong thing running as a Dem
Apr 11th 2016
27
Well, they tied in Wisconsin delegates.
Apr 11th 2016
29
      RE: Well, they tied in Wisconsin delegates.
Apr 11th 2016
32
           Arizona
Apr 12th 2016
33
                RE: Arizona
Apr 12th 2016
36
                RE: Arizona
Apr 12th 2016
38
                you're absolutely right about the tone of their campaigns
Apr 12th 2016
42
                Really?
Apr 12th 2016
40
                     i didn't say any of that though
Apr 12th 2016
41
                     IKR... Obama wasnt presented as an establishment candidate
Apr 12th 2016
43
                          RE: IKR... Obama wasnt presented as an establishment candidate
Apr 12th 2016
45
                               true, but since he was black...
Apr 12th 2016
47
                               RE: IKR... Obama wasnt presented as an establishment candidate
Apr 12th 2016
50
                The AZ issues appear to have hurt Clinton more than Sanders, though.
Apr 12th 2016
48
                I guess we'll never know...
Apr 12th 2016
52
                No.....
Apr 12th 2016
49
                     Yes...
Apr 12th 2016
53
                          RE: Yes...
Apr 12th 2016
54
                               I believe that they are...
Apr 12th 2016
55
                                    RE: I believe that they are...
Apr 12th 2016
56
                                         What they got?
Apr 12th 2016
58
                                              RE: What they got?
Apr 12th 2016
59
                                                   I think that healthcare for all might peek their interest as well...
Apr 12th 2016
60
                                                        RE: I think that healthcare for all might peek their interest as well...
Apr 12th 2016
62
                                                             What letter does Hillary carry around?
Apr 12th 2016
65
                                                                  RE: What letter does Hillary carry around?
Apr 12th 2016
67
                                                                       Her D looking old and crusty...
Apr 12th 2016
68
                                                                            RE: Her D looking old and crusty...
Apr 13th 2016
80
                                                                                 I'll keep watching that scoreboard...
Apr 14th 2016
95
CP Time: If only Trump or Cruz made that joke
Apr 12th 2016
39
Jesus....
Apr 12th 2016
66
Good pragmatist versus purist article.
Apr 12th 2016
44
Curious to know why you're so scared of Kasich?
Apr 13th 2016
71
      Jesus almighty.
Apr 13th 2016
74
      RE: Jesus almighty.
Apr 13th 2016
81
      Yeah people are losing sight of how terrible Kasich, Ryan, Rubio, etc..
Apr 13th 2016
82
      My perception is:
Apr 13th 2016
84
           RE: My perception is:
Apr 13th 2016
85
           How would his pro-life stance
Apr 13th 2016
86
                RE: How would his pro-life stance
Apr 13th 2016
87
                     RE: How would his pro-life stance
Apr 13th 2016
89
           Kasich is to the right of Hillary on every issue
Apr 13th 2016
88
                except for perhaps the largest issue the next president will deal with:
Apr 13th 2016
90
                     perhaps, but not really
Apr 14th 2016
119
                          Dude....
Apr 14th 2016
123
                          are you replying to the right reply?
Apr 14th 2016
127
                               Yes.
Apr 14th 2016
130
                                    No. I'm pointing out that Hillary is to the left of Kasich
Apr 14th 2016
131
                          Kasich's record on foreign policy is inconsistent; often contradictory
Apr 14th 2016
132
                               she's actually not more consistent than him either
Apr 14th 2016
142
                                    Where has she taken the opposite position ?
Apr 15th 2016
181
      RE: Jesus almighty.
Apr 13th 2016
83
      Pretty Simple. the Supreme Court.
Apr 14th 2016
103
Samantha Bee on super delegates....
Apr 12th 2016
51
Good video.
Apr 12th 2016
64
      RE: Good video.
Apr 13th 2016
76
Paul Ryan still on this coy "Who, me?" shit
Apr 12th 2016
61
Well Trump absolutely smashed the family town hall.
Apr 12th 2016
69
Kasich needs to keep losing. I don't want him on any ballot.
Apr 13th 2016
72
RE: Kasich needs to keep losing. I don't want him on any ballot.
Apr 13th 2016
75
      He's there to get on the ballot too.
Apr 13th 2016
77
           RE: He's there to get on the ballot too.
Apr 13th 2016
78
                lmao @ Kasich holding the GOP hostage over Ohio..
Apr 13th 2016
79
Apparently Trump is trying to rally PA voters by calling for Joe Paterno
Apr 13th 2016
91
Hillary Clinton's Defense of Her Role in Honduras Coup
Apr 13th 2016
93
Hillary Clinton's policy was a Latin American crime story
Apr 13th 2016
94
RE: Hillary Clinton's policy was a Latin American crime story
Apr 14th 2016
96
      Great analysis...
Apr 14th 2016
97
           I couldn't tell if that reads, Bernie's fault or BHO's fault...?
Apr 14th 2016
99
                RE: I couldn't tell if that reads, Bernie's fault or BHO's fault...?
Apr 14th 2016
100
                     the world is bigger than Bernie Sanders
Apr 14th 2016
105
                          RE: the world is bigger than Bernie Sanders
Apr 14th 2016
108
                               What's on the Bernie Sanders topics HRC can't talk about list?
Apr 14th 2016
140
Dana Frank: "She's baldly lying"
Apr 14th 2016
98
      RE: Dana Frank: "She's baldly lying"
Apr 14th 2016
101
           why you always going with the whore/bitch route bruh?
Apr 14th 2016
107
           RE: why you always going with the whore/bitch route bruh?
Apr 14th 2016
109
                Corporate Whore hasn't ever really been gender specific
Apr 14th 2016
110
                RE: Corporate Whore hasn't ever really been gender specific
Apr 14th 2016
112
                     not a big deal. Bern squashed it.
Apr 14th 2016
114
                          RE: not a big deal. Bern squashed it.
Apr 14th 2016
117
                nah bruh.. you know damn well you have thrown that out 4 or 5 times now
Apr 14th 2016
113
                     RE: nah bruh.. you know damn well you have thrown that out 4 or 5 times ...
Apr 14th 2016
116
                          well truth has a tendency to call everyone out of their names
Apr 14th 2016
121
                               RE: well truth has a tendency to call everyone out of their names
Apr 14th 2016
125
           So now you're accusing Dana Frank of misogyny?
Apr 14th 2016
115
                RE: So now you're accusing Dana Frank of misogyny?
Apr 14th 2016
118
                     A lie is a lie
Apr 14th 2016
120
                     RE: A lie is a lie
Apr 14th 2016
128
                     how are you an expert on politics but act like it isnt a dirty game?
Apr 14th 2016
122
                          RE: how are you an expert on politics but act like it isnt a dirty game?
Apr 14th 2016
129
yesterday was INSANE.
Apr 14th 2016
102
RE: yesterday was INSANE.
Apr 14th 2016
104
Question....
Apr 14th 2016
106
      Yeah NY is a closed primary, so she's good
Apr 14th 2016
111
Publicly it feels like he's destroying her
Apr 14th 2016
126
      Yeah. It's weird seeing the disconnect between enthusiasm and votes
Apr 14th 2016
134
      It's crazy, 'cause my wife said she's seeing Bernie signs out in the sti...
Apr 14th 2016
137
      Pre debate coverage has Bern's number at 57% of the remaining delegates
Apr 14th 2016
141
wait wait WAIT - Hillary stood with the Verizon workers yesterday?
Apr 14th 2016
124
That's why the people got my back like the Verizon man (c) Jay Elec
Apr 14th 2016
135
c'mon, just because she took *tons* of $ from Verizon
Apr 14th 2016
138
      man I don't get it at all
Apr 14th 2016
139
      Yeah, but maybe she feels underpaid too
Apr 14th 2016
143
           Hah!
Apr 14th 2016
144
DNC, Clinton and Sanders campaigns to sue Arizona over voting rights
Apr 14th 2016
133
This is a good start
Apr 14th 2016
136
They're going for throats right off the bat in this NY debate
Apr 14th 2016
145
hillary is getting destroyed tonight.
Apr 14th 2016
146
nah they bout even. but berns lookin like he bout to have a stroke yo LO...
Apr 14th 2016
147
      lol
Apr 14th 2016
149
Bern really called us Southern Black Democrats more conservative?
Apr 14th 2016
148
what are your thoughts on gay marriage?
Apr 15th 2016
154
RE: what are your thoughts on gay marriage?
Apr 15th 2016
169
      no, but it would suggest that they are more conservative.
Apr 15th 2016
176
           RE: no, but it would suggest that they are more conservative.
Apr 15th 2016
226
                well to be fair most of my southern brethren
Apr 15th 2016
256
                     RE: well to be fair most of my southern brethren
Apr 16th 2016
264
He was talking about whites too...
Apr 15th 2016
157
Nah....
Apr 15th 2016
167
      AL, MI, and SC have gone Republican in EVERY presidential race....
Apr 15th 2016
179
Yes. And there's a lot of truth to that.
Apr 15th 2016
162
newsflash: most democrats in the south are white
Apr 15th 2016
164
RE: newsflash: most democrats in the south are white
Apr 15th 2016
171
i don't think Bernie's scared of yalls smear tactics though
Apr 15th 2016
248
you a damn lie
Apr 16th 2016
290
      I stand corrected
Apr 16th 2016
298
uhhh lol.....that's not even a secret f'reals
Apr 15th 2016
185
Meh.. i think that's more the way it's being spun
Apr 15th 2016
210
Clinton looked angry at the crowd
Apr 14th 2016
150
LOL yooo yall so damn pressed i swear
Apr 15th 2016
151
      Hillary on Israel/Palestine should be a shame on any democrat.
Apr 15th 2016
152
      Seriously. She is more right-wing than Trump on this.
Apr 15th 2016
177
      FightFor15, Raising the SS cap, Transcripts = bad looks for HRC
Apr 15th 2016
153
      Time Warner owns CNN and has contributed to her campaign
Apr 15th 2016
155
           RE: Time Warner owns CNN and has contributed to her campaign
Apr 15th 2016
163
Longest I watched any debate last night. I am astounded smart
Apr 15th 2016
156
I am astounded Hillary supporters...
Apr 15th 2016
158
Compare and contrast
Apr 15th 2016
159
She doesn't warn about a "trillion dollar tax hike" anymore
Apr 15th 2016
161
http://i.imgur.com/dCGKCqa.gif
Apr 15th 2016
160
LOL, the reason for that exchange at all is her failure to answer Y/N
Apr 15th 2016
168
That's the dumbing down I find so appalling.
Apr 15th 2016
172
      well it's a way to show she can't simply answer yes
Apr 15th 2016
174
      She flip-flopped live on camera
Apr 15th 2016
175
      She didn't flip-flop though. Not on TV and not in these statements
Apr 15th 2016
195
           First she says no, then yes, now *static*
Apr 15th 2016
234
      I think voters want a definitive answer before they vote for her TBH
Apr 15th 2016
184
           Requiring a yes or no answer is a silly gotcha question
Apr 15th 2016
204
                RE: Yes or no, would you lift the cap?
Apr 15th 2016
207
                lmao @ sophisticated voter. This is America Bruh
Apr 15th 2016
212
the problem with "it depends" hillary is when she makes actual choices
Apr 15th 2016
254
That was a knife fight last night...lol
Apr 15th 2016
165
agree 99%
Apr 15th 2016
178
RE: agree 99%
Apr 15th 2016
187
I find the angle of the gun debate on the dem side strange TBH
Apr 15th 2016
180
i dont like the topic at all
Apr 15th 2016
182
no, I'm coming around on that issue.
Apr 15th 2016
188
      RE: no, I'm coming around on that issue.
Apr 15th 2016
196
           naw I agree with you.
Apr 15th 2016
239
Bernie can't properly prosecute his case without a plan...
Apr 15th 2016
189
      RE: Bernie can't properly prosecute his case without a plan...
Apr 15th 2016
193
TRANSCRIPTS? WE TALKING BOUT TRANSCRIPTS?
Apr 15th 2016
166
yeah, the deflection to other candidates isn't gonna hold
Apr 15th 2016
170
well, we know the GOP will use that shit all damn day
Apr 15th 2016
173
      RE: well, we know the GOP will use that shit all damn day
Apr 15th 2016
198
           maybe, but GOP oves big busines so they may say fuck it
Apr 15th 2016
200
                RE: maybe, but GOP oves big busines so they may say fuck it
Apr 15th 2016
202
                     but everyone knows the GOP has big money ties bruh
Apr 15th 2016
215
                          RE: but everyone knows the GOP has big money ties bruh
Apr 15th 2016
225
                               Trump just said Hillary is owned by Wall St and he agrees with Bernie......
Apr 16th 2016
258
                                    RE: Trump just said Hillary is owned by Wall St and he agrees with Berni...
Apr 16th 2016
265
                                         Bruh, you arent making any damn sense.
Apr 16th 2016
267
                                              I'm not allowed to reply to him so I'm glad you pointed the obvious.
Apr 16th 2016
270
                                              Trump doesn't want to for the opposite reason.
Apr 16th 2016
279
                                                   Are you serious?
Apr 16th 2016
281
                                                   I have no idea.
Apr 16th 2016
287
                                                        No matter what he's still top 0.1% wealthiest in America
Apr 16th 2016
293
                                                   Lmao... trump doesnt give a shit about that at all
Apr 17th 2016
304
RE: TRANSCRIPTS? WE TALKING BOUT TRANSCRIPTS?
Apr 15th 2016
183
jewish people are funny about their finances
Apr 15th 2016
186
RE: jewish people are funny about their finances
Apr 15th 2016
190
RE: jewish people are funny about their finances
Apr 15th 2016
191
      RE: jewish people are funny about their finances
Apr 15th 2016
194
      lmao, nah.. you missed the follow up
Apr 15th 2016
197
           RE: lmao, nah.. you missed the follow up
Apr 15th 2016
201
                Hyperbole
Apr 15th 2016
216
                     IKR... this isn't about progressives
Apr 15th 2016
219
                     Yup. He's caught up in the election and winning strategies
Apr 15th 2016
224
                          RE: Yup. He's caught up in the election and winning strategies
Apr 15th 2016
232
                     RE: Hyperbole
Apr 15th 2016
230
I feel the only reason would be to use last night
Apr 15th 2016
192
      the way he danced around his taxes made me believe he got funny money
Apr 15th 2016
199
           Yeah it was weird
Apr 15th 2016
203
                didn't he JUST release his 2014 return a day or two ago?
Apr 15th 2016
205
                     RE: didn't he JUST release his 2014 return a day or two ago?
Apr 15th 2016
208
                          i guess i was right and wrong:
Apr 15th 2016
209
                               RE: i guess i was right and wrong:
Apr 15th 2016
211
                               its the way he answered that made it appear something
Apr 15th 2016
214
                                    i was kind of surprised by that too
Apr 15th 2016
223
Definitely her worst moment. She's really trying to run out the clock
Apr 15th 2016
206
**** Post Jack: Dems and the Gun Issue ****
Apr 15th 2016
213
RE: it prevents victims from being able to pursue legal action/class act...
Apr 15th 2016
218
As long as the manufacturing of guns is legal, they should not be sued.....
Apr 15th 2016
220
I'm in this line
Apr 15th 2016
222
that argument didn't work too well for the tobacco lobby
Apr 15th 2016
guns are designed to kill
Apr 15th 2016
228
That is the problem, though. The PLCAA blocks any chance of such legisla...
Apr 15th 2016
236
Your reference to illegal guns makes me think there are
Apr 15th 2016
245
      Yes. Enforcement of existing laws is blocked. Because of the PLCAA..lol
Apr 15th 2016
250
           RE: Yes. Enforcement of existing laws is blocked. Because of the PLCAA.....
Apr 16th 2016
260
           feels like you're interchanging lawsuits and criminal charges IMO
Apr 16th 2016
269
                cigarettes and alcohol were not written as constitutional rights
Apr 16th 2016
272
                RE: feels like you're interchanging lawsuits and criminal charges IMO
Apr 16th 2016
274
                Quotes:
Apr 16th 2016
275
                     fam, I read it, I agree, I'm saying, there are tools for prosecuting the...
Apr 16th 2016
280
                          Your question doesn't make sense within the context of what's been
Apr 16th 2016
291
RE: guns are designed to kill
Apr 15th 2016
237
      Cigs are designed to make you buy more cigs
Apr 15th 2016
238
because they actively committed fraud to hide the research
Apr 15th 2016
251
What they are really after is distribution. Tighter oversight of upstrea...
Apr 15th 2016
229
      RE: What they are really after is distribution. Tighter oversight of ups...
Apr 15th 2016
233
maybe I'm jaded but I think it's a bad idea to talk about guns
Apr 15th 2016
221
      Too late lol. There's already a push to lift the restrictions placed on ...
Apr 15th 2016
231
      not only is it a LOSING issue. it's also very much a side show.
Apr 15th 2016
255
           Oh, you mean follow THIS president's lead lol?
Apr 15th 2016
257
           Obama is in the WH... he can do whatever the fuck he wants...lol
Apr 16th 2016
261
           RE: not only is it a LOSING issue. it's also very much a side show.
Apr 16th 2016
263
Bern does seem to struggle when asked "how?"
Apr 15th 2016
217
Taken from his site...
Apr 15th 2016
227
      Thanks. Still doesn't really answer the banks question tho
Apr 15th 2016
240
           I think it's pretty comprehensive, honestly
Apr 15th 2016
243
                That's where we differ. I'm too cynical to buy it will happen
Apr 15th 2016
244
Poll: Clinton leads Sanders by 17 points in New York (SWIPE)
Apr 15th 2016
235
A close loss is a W for Bernie
Apr 15th 2016
241
      No, a loss is a major L for Bernie and clips his "momentum"...
Apr 15th 2016
242
      RE: A close loss is a W for Bernie
Apr 15th 2016
246
      That will be the spin, but anything less than a W is an L
Apr 15th 2016
247
           Yeah, that isnt happening in Clintons back yard
Apr 16th 2016
262
                RE: Yeah, that isnt happening in Clintons back yard
Apr 16th 2016
266
                Only 8 years? Lmao
Apr 16th 2016
268
                And it was a LOOOOONG time ago
Apr 16th 2016
271
                RE: Only 8 years? Lmao
Apr 16th 2016
282
                     Nah, the 21 to 30 year old doesnt vote in large numbers
Apr 17th 2016
305
                I cringed at how hard she sucked off NY during the debate though
Apr 16th 2016
286
                     RE: I cringed at how hard she sucked off NY during the debate though
Apr 16th 2016
295
                Spin away, man
Apr 16th 2016
284
                     Thats actual factuals
Apr 17th 2016
306
                          actual W > moral victory/spin
Apr 17th 2016
307
                               Bernie Supporters are working HAAARRDDDD!!!
Apr 17th 2016
308
                               it isnt spin if its the truth...lol
Apr 17th 2016
310
                                    You're redefining winning. AKA spin
Apr 17th 2016
311
                                         no... its politics
Apr 18th 2016
314
                                              Have a nice spin
Apr 18th 2016
319
listened to Paul Virzis podcast today
Apr 15th 2016
249
RE: listened to Paul Virzis podcast today
Apr 15th 2016
252
^took the bait
Apr 15th 2016
253
      RE: ^took the bait
Apr 16th 2016
259
           #democracyspring
Apr 16th 2016
299
it doesn't take a political scientist to see this
Apr 17th 2016
309
@Mansa, you want to see an evisceration (vid)
Apr 16th 2016
273
Scheer is absolutely right on the CFMA backstory...
Apr 16th 2016
289
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar Endorsing Clinton (SWIPE)
Apr 16th 2016
276
LOL damn breh. You're working really hard in here.
Apr 16th 2016
283
I've said that over 1,000 HRC post of his ago
Apr 16th 2016
292
RE: I've said that over 1,000 HRC post of his ago
Apr 16th 2016
297
      Stalking?
Apr 16th 2016
301
RE: LOL damn breh. You're working really hard in here.
Apr 16th 2016
296
rich guy gonna rich guy
Apr 16th 2016
300
Hillary Clinton's record
Apr 16th 2016
277
RE: Wall Street executives made up the largest donors to her campaign
Apr 16th 2016
278
      Son-in-Law: Marc Mezvinsky
Apr 16th 2016
288
Some reference material
Apr 16th 2016
285
There was a good debate on that chart...
Apr 16th 2016
294
      The nature of principles is that they remain immune to changing circumst...
Apr 16th 2016
302
           Basically.
Apr 17th 2016
303
Sanders is catching up in NY (latest poll: 47-53)
Apr 17th 2016
312
Hillary got that Hot Sauce in her Bag Swag (Breakfast Club Swipe)
Apr 18th 2016
313
did she really have it in her bag or nah
Apr 18th 2016
315
http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0087/5842/products/IMG_5892.JPG?v=14577...
Apr 18th 2016
326
RE: Hillary got that Hot Sauce in her Bag Swag (Breakfast Club Swipe)
Apr 18th 2016
316
that was definitely a post that didn't need to be made
Apr 18th 2016
317
      RE: that was definitely a post that didn't need to be made
Apr 18th 2016
318
           wow, you really took my post seriously?
Apr 18th 2016
320
                RE: wow, you really took my post seriously?
Apr 18th 2016
322
Pander Pander Pander Pander Pander (c) Desiigner
Apr 18th 2016
321
Black voters, pander
Apr 18th 2016
323
      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Apr 18th 2016
329
LOL hey can you guys be sure to ask Hillary what she keeps in her bag?
Apr 18th 2016
324
Indeed very scripted. They should have followed up with
Apr 18th 2016
325
      whats the correct answer? Texas Pete or Red Hot?
Apr 18th 2016
327
           For Hillary? http://tinyurl.com/z8nat6v
Apr 18th 2016
328
           See, if Hillary was really funny that's what she would have said.
Apr 18th 2016
330
           Crystals.
Apr 18th 2016
331
It's an older pander sir, but it checks out.
Apr 18th 2016
332
Bernie Has a Lot More Delegates Than the Media Is Telling You (Swipe)
Apr 19th 2016
333

SoWhat
Charter member
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1. "how in the hell have the 7 of you ppl"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

made 7 posts of 300+ entries trolling each other w/the same bullshit?

has even ONE of you motherfuckers changed your mind after all of that trolling?

what's the point of this now?

fuck you.

  

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stravinskian
Member since Feb 24th 2003
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Mon Apr-11-16 11:40 AM

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2. "It's fun to argue. "
In response to Reply # 1


          


You're a lawyer, you should know that. But maybe you get enough of it at work.

  

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SoWhat
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4. "i guess so."
In response to Reply # 2


  

          

fuck you.

  

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Ashy Achilles
Member since Sep 22nd 2005
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Mon Apr-11-16 11:40 AM

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3. "lol"
In response to Reply # 1


          

you know it's not even about changing minds at this point
i just like to watch the darts being thrown

  

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SoWhat
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Mon Apr-11-16 11:42 AM

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6. "ugh."
In response to Reply # 3


  

          

i find these posts completely tedious. i don't even lurk in them. i have perused a couple of them and immediately backspaced after skimming a few replies.

fuck you.

  

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denny
Member since Apr 11th 2008
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Mon Apr-11-16 11:52 AM

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7. "lol"
In response to Reply # 1


          

Fwiw I learn alot from these threads. Moreso than watching CNN. There's laughs too.

  

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Atillah Moor
Member since Sep 05th 2013
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Mon Apr-11-16 12:00 PM

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9. "panem et circenses"
In response to Reply # 1


  

          

______________________________________

Everything looks like Oprah kissing Harvey Weinstein these days

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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Mon Apr-11-16 02:59 PM

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15. "RE: how in the hell have the 7 of you ppl"
In response to Reply # 1


  

          

http://www.teamjimmyjoe.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/bugs-bunny-bernie-hillary.gif

**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

  

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Sarah_Bellum
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17. "perfect^^^^"
In response to Reply # 15


  

          

___________________________________________________________


DJTB YOMM

  

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stravinskian
Member since Feb 24th 2003
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Mon Apr-11-16 06:04 PM

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18. "Always thought Bugs was a smarmy fuck."
In response to Reply # 15


          


Now we have confirmation.

  

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Mynoriti
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19. "lol awesome"
In response to Reply # 15


  

          

>http://www.teamjimmyjoe.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/bugs-bunny-bernie-hillary.gif

--------
http://ambitiondeficitdisorder.tumblr.com/

  

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murph71
Member since Sep 15th 2005
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Mon Apr-11-16 06:28 PM

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24. "RE: how in the hell have the 7 of you ppl"
In response to Reply # 15


          


Classic...lol

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

  

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SoWhat
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35. "you know? lol"
In response to Reply # 15


  

          

fuck you.

  

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Splinter.
Member since Oct 22nd 2007
54 posts
Wed Apr-13-16 12:55 AM

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70. "and the uppercase Black duck is for Hillary lol"
In response to Reply # 15


  

          

  

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akon
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Mon Apr-11-16 11:41 AM

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5. "really hating the way the dems side is going at the moment"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

its completely unneccessary - the whole questioning of qualifications and judgements
i was quite early in my support for bernie, so i am hoping that his campaign pulls away from this way of doing things
i dont believe it takes dragging the other candidates in the mud to win
(hilary did it and didn't win)

its one thing to distinguish oneself based on policies
but its another to make this a personality contest.

my two cents

.
http://perspectivesudans.blogspot.com/
i myself would never want to be god,or even like god.Because god got all these human beings on this planet and i most certainly would not want to be responsible for them, or even have the disgrace that i made them.

  

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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
67264 posts
Mon Apr-11-16 11:58 AM

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8. "personality contest is ALL it's been since the first TV debate"
In response to Reply # 5


          

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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denny
Member since Apr 11th 2008
11281 posts
Mon Apr-11-16 12:27 PM

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10. "What is this GOP family thing they're doing on CNN?"
In response to Reply # 0


          

These mofos really would sell their own mother to be elected. I couldn't even imagine putting my kids out there like this. It's like a dog and pony show. How much therapy is gonna be needed down the line to undo all this for these poor kids?

I don't think I've even seen a picture of Bernie's wife and kids. Not even entirely sure that he HAS kids (think so).

  

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stravinskian
Member since Feb 24th 2003
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Mon Apr-11-16 12:35 PM

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11. "Well, Bernie's wife has been a pretty major surrogate, especially lately..."
In response to Reply # 10
Mon Apr-11-16 12:38 PM by stravinskian

          

>I don't think I've even seen a picture of Bernie's wife and
>kids. Not even entirely sure that he HAS kids (think so).

Usually kids don't feature too heavily, but they usually show up somewhere. I remember a big thing years ago with one of Rick Santorum's kids getting clearly bored at one of his speeches. Malia and Sasha Obama were all over the news in 2008. Usually there's an unwritten code to only say positive things about candidates' kids, but it doesn't always hold up. I seem to remember Chelsea Clinton was going through some awkward years in '92, and some really ugly things were said.

  

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denny
Member since Apr 11th 2008
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Mon Apr-11-16 01:17 PM

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12. "The Palin treatment obviously sticks out."
In response to Reply # 11


          

I remember being mildly impressed initially when Mccain made the surprise announcement that he'd have a female running mate. But they very quickly cancelled out whatever progressive points they might've gotten by slamming us in the head over and over again about her role as wife and mother. That first speech she made had to break the record for how many cut-away shots they took of a candidate's family.

I don't recall Chelsea or the Obama kids being overly exploited. Pretty firm in the belief that this is GOP territory and it really has the opposite of the desired effect for me. The more you use your family....the less respect I have for your 'family values'. A good parent would do their best to maintain a sense of normalcy for the kids. The Ted Cruz kiss was cringe-worthy.

  

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bentagain
Member since Mar 19th 2008
15041 posts
Mon Apr-11-16 02:26 PM

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13. "Ya'll really gonna duck this 3X...?"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

http://board.okayplayer.com/okp.php?az=show_topic&forum=4&topic_id=12998123&mesg_id=12998123&page=#13000894

---------------------------------------------------------------

If you can't understand it without an explanation

you can't understand it with an explanation

  

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Ted Gee Seal
Member since Apr 18th 2007
10084 posts
Mon Apr-11-16 02:58 PM

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14. "I read it in the last post."
In response to Reply # 13


  

          

Didn't have anything useful to add.

Just IMO though.

  

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Mansa Musa
Member since Feb 16th 2009
382 posts
Tue Apr-12-16 08:29 AM

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34. "Michelle Alexander also cited Stone Mountain recently"
In response to Reply # 13


          

...on her Facebook page. It is a striking photograph.

It is also true that Sanders voted for the 1994 Crime Bill, as did a lot Black Democrats. So Clinton can't be blamed alone for the 1990s prison boom alone, even if Sanders says it was because of the assault weapons ban and the Violence Against Women Act. But Clinton can be blamed for playing "dog whistle" racial politics (attacking Sister Souljah, making a show of executing Ricky Ray Rector, the crack-powder cocaine sentencing disparity, three-strikes-you're-out), in a conscious effort to woo white centrist voters. He can also be blamed for completing what Reagan could not in shredding the federal government's fifty-year commitment to provide income support for the poor.

I think the key point is that Bill Clinton helped to consolidate Reaganism in American politics, by absorbing some of its key tenets into the mainstream of the Democratic Party. Doing this required softening the hard edges of Reaganism rhetorically, while advancing much of its agenda. Welfare reform was a fundamentally Reaganite policy move, and the arguments for it drew on the "welfare queen" stereotype (even though it increased poverty for many white women and children as well).

Even though it wasn't justified in racist terms, his financial deregulation probably did more harm to low-income communities of color than anything else in his presidency. But that's another discussion.

  

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bentagain
Member since Mar 19th 2008
15041 posts
Tue Apr-12-16 08:40 AM

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37. "Yeah, that's how I came across the article and pic linked "
In response to Reply # 34
Tue Apr-12-16 08:42 AM by bentagain

  

          

no snark, did you read it?

It references a dem action committee formed in the early 80s

Members including Gore and Clinton

that intentionally pandered to the yt vote having lost 7/8 elections to the southern strategy

i.e. the crime bill didn't have anything to do with crime

It was a political strategy to win yt votes.

---------------------------------------------------------------

If you can't understand it without an explanation

you can't understand it with an explanation

  

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Mansa Musa
Member since Feb 16th 2009
382 posts
Tue Apr-12-16 10:20 AM

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46. "Yeah, it's a good article"
In response to Reply # 37


          

Thanks for linking to it.

Petrella's point about how the DLC was directly opposed to Jesse Jackson's vision of the Democratic Party is really important, IMO.

  

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Dr Claw
Member since Jun 25th 2003
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Wed Apr-13-16 04:39 AM

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73. "^^^^"
In response to Reply # 34


  

          

>I think the key point is that Bill Clinton helped to
>consolidate Reaganism in American politics, by absorbing some
>of its key tenets into the mainstream of the Democratic Party.
>Doing this required softening the hard edges of Reaganism
>rhetorically, while advancing much of its agenda. Welfare
>reform was a fundamentally Reaganite policy move, and the
>arguments for it drew on the "welfare queen" stereotype (even
>though it increased poverty for many white women and children
>as well).
>
>Even though it wasn't justified in racist terms, his financial
>deregulation probably did more harm to low-income communities
>of color than anything else in his presidency. But that's
>another discussion.

Wonder why you don't hear about why you have to agree to some horrible-ass shit just to get white people to vote for you.

  

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bentagain
Member since Mar 19th 2008
15041 posts
Wed Apr-13-16 11:17 PM

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92. "Did Blacks Really Endorse the 1994 Crime Bill? (swipe)"
In response to Reply # 34


  

          

I'm really enjoying her voice in this campaign cycle, another article she linked in her TM

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/04/13/opinion/did-blacks-really-endorse-the-1994-crime-bill.html?action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=opinion-c-col-left-region®ion=opinion-c-col-left-region&WT.nav=opinion-c-col-left-region&referer

By ELIZABETH HINTON, JULILLY KOHLER-HAUSMANN and VESLA M. WEAVER
APRIL 13, 2016
AS political candidates and pundits grapple with the legacy of the 1994 crime bill and the era of mass incarceration that has seen millions of African-Americans locked in the nation’s prisons, one defense keeps popping up: that black citizens asked for it.

When confronted about her husband’s pivotal support for the bill, Hillary Clinton argued, even as she admitted the legislation’s shortcomings, that the bill was a response to “great demand, not just from America writ large, but from the black community, to get tougher on crime.”

Yet the historical record reveals a different story. Instead of being the unintended consequence of the democratic process at work, punitive crime policy is a result of a process of selectively hearing black voices on the question of crime.

There’s no question that by the early 1990s, blacks wanted an immediate response to the crime, violence and drug markets in their communities. But even at the time, many were asking for something different from the crime bill. Calls for tough sentencing and police protection were paired with calls for full employment, quality education and drug treatment, and criticism of police brutality.

It’s not just that those demands were ignored completely. It’s that some elements were elevated and others were diminished — what we call selective hearing. Policy makers pointed to black support for greater punishment and surveillance, without recognizing accompanying demands to redirect power and economic resources to low-income minority communities. When blacks ask for better policing, legislators tend to hear more instead.


Selective hearing has a deep history. In the Progressive Era, W.E.B. DuBois and Ida B. Wells called for state authorities to offer blacks the same social investment that reformers used to manage crime in white immigrant communities. But while whites received rehabilitation and welfare programs, black citizens found themselves overpunished and underprotected.

During the 1960s, blacks argued for full socioeconomic inclusion and an end to discriminatory policing, which they argued was a root cause of that decade’s urban unrest. Instead, they got militarized police forces and riot tanks in the Omnibus Crime Control and Safe Streets Act of 1968.

In the ashes of the war on poverty, the trend accelerated. The penal system ballooned, while social supports directed toward the poorest and most vulnerable declined precipitously. Black leaders argued for full employment in the press and on the floor of Congress, urged vetoes of draconian legislation and drafted their own bills to support community-led anti-crime programs — and all to little avail.

Flash forward to the Clinton era. As soon as Chuck Schumer, Joseph R. Biden Jr. and others introduced their bipartisan crime bill in September of 1993, groups representing black communities pushed back. The N.A.A.C.P. called it a “crime against the American people.”

While supporting the idea of addressing crime, members of the Congressional Black Caucus criticized the bill itself and introduced an alternative bill that included investments in prevention and alternatives to incarceration, devoted $2 billion more to drug treatment and $3 billion more to early intervention programs. The caucus also put forward the Racial Justice Act, which would have made it possible to use statistical evidence of racial bias to challenge death sentences.

Given the history of selective hearing, what followed was no surprise. Black support for anti-crime legislation was highlighted, while black criticism of the specific legislation was tuned out. The caucus threatened to stall the bill, but lawmakers scrapped the Racial Justice Act when Republicans promised to filibuster any legislation that adopted its measures.

In final negotiations, Democratic leadership yielded to Republicans demanding that prevention (or “welfare for criminals” as one called it) be sliced in exchange for their votes. Senator Robert Dole insisted that the focus be “on cutting pork, not on cutting prisons or police.” The compromise eliminated $2.5 billion in social spending and only $800 million in prison expenditures.

This presented black lawmakers with a dilemma: Defeating the bill might pave the way for something even more draconian down the line, and lose critical prevention funding still in the bill. Ultimately, 26 of the 38 voting members supported the legislation. But those who broke ranks did so loudly: As Representative Robert C. Scott of Virginia explained, “You wouldn’t ask an opponent of abortion to look at a bill with the greatest expansion of abortion in the history of the United States, and argue that he ought to vote for it because it’s got some highway funding in it.”

Mr. Scott had it right: The bill allocated federal funds for up to 75 percent of the cost of new prisons, defined 60 new capital offenses, constricted inmates’ access to higher education and introduced 100,000 more police officers. Less than a quarter of the funding went to prevention programs. Over two decades later, this legislation continues to shape the lives of millions of African-Americans, overwhelmingly for the worse. This legislation further entrenched the idea that vulnerable urban communities are best managed through harsh punishment and heightened surveillance.

Making our neighborhoods places of mobility and fortune, not disinvestment and confinement, means that the voices of the people most affected must be heard and heeded. As we debate how to switch course, our popular understanding of the rise of “get tough” laws should not layer selective memory atop selective hearing of the past by justifying black incarceration with trite references to black voices.

Elizabeth Hinton is an assistant professor in the departments of history and African and African-American studies at Harvard. Julilly Kohler-Hausmann is an assistant professor of history at Cornell. Vesla M. Weaver is an associate professor in the departments of African-American studies and political science at Yale.

---------------------------------------------------------------

If you can't understand it without an explanation

you can't understand it with an explanation

  

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Mynoriti
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57. "Anyone remember 3X the poster?"
In response to Reply # 13


  

          

Wonder what that psycho is up to

--------
http://ambitiondeficitdisorder.tumblr.com/

  

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stravinskian
Member since Feb 24th 2003
12240 posts
Tue Apr-12-16 04:22 PM

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63. "I'd like to think he wouldn't even be supporting Bernie. "
In response to Reply # 57


          


He'd definitely be throwing around the conspiracy theories about assassinations, though.

  

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PimpTrickGangstaClik
Member since Oct 06th 2005
14884 posts
Mon Apr-11-16 04:39 PM

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16. "Clinton Campaign Accuses Sanders of Trying to Win Nomination (swipe)"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

http://www.newyorker.com/humor/borowitz-report/clinton-campaign-accuses-sanders-of-trying-to-win-nomination

Clinton Campaign Accuses Sanders of Trying to Win Nomination
BY ANDY BOROWITZ

The war of words between the two Democratic camps heated up over the weekend, as the Clinton campaign accused Vermont Senator Bernie Sanders of “blatantly attempting to win the Democratic nomination for President.”

Appearing on NBC’s “Meet the Press,” the Clinton campaign spokesman Harland Dorrinson said that Sanders’s actions in the past few weeks “left little doubt as to what his true intentions are—namely, to be the Party’s nominee.”

“He’s been raising money, he’s been running in primaries, and, yes, he’s been winning caucuses,” the Clinton aide said. “It’s time for Bernie Sanders to come clean with the American people and admit what he’s really up to.”

“It’s deeply troubling that what appeared at first to be a purely symbolic candidacy has turned into something else entirely,” he said.

In an interview on CNN, Secretary Clinton said that she would not “take the bait” when she was asked whether she thought Sanders was trying to win the nomination, but she stopped short of disavowing the accusation.

“I think that’s a question that only Senator Sanders can answer,” she said. “But I think I speak for a lot of people when I say that if, at the end of the day, it turns out that Bernie Sanders has been doing everything he’s been doing because he wants to be President, that would be very disappointing.”

_______________________________________
You ain't the only one whose got problems. You ain't the only one who knows pain. Get up off your ass and just solve them. You still got a chance to try to change, try the shit again.
Devin tha Dude

  

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GriftyMcgrift
Member since May 22nd 2002
20414 posts
Mon Apr-11-16 06:18 PM

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21. "LOL is this an onion article?"
In response to Reply # 16


  

          

  

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stravinskian
Member since Feb 24th 2003
12240 posts
Mon Apr-11-16 06:24 PM

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22. "Yeah, Borowitz does this satirical column in the New Yorker."
In response to Reply # 21


          


Clogs up my newsreader with these corny headlines.

  

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GriftyMcgrift
Member since May 22nd 2002
20414 posts
Mon Apr-11-16 06:25 PM

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23. "ok something in the back of my mind told me the new yorker"
In response to Reply # 22


  

          

does satire

but i wasnt quite accepting of it LOL


that was pretty damn funny though

  

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denny
Member since Apr 11th 2008
11281 posts
Mon Apr-11-16 07:52 PM

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30. "lol"
In response to Reply # 16


          

I feel this one.

  

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mrhood75
Member since Dec 06th 2004
42813 posts
Mon Apr-11-16 06:15 PM

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20. "Trying to wrap my head around any justification for the Kasich ending up..."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

...with the nomination after the convention.

I mean, yes, I get that he's the most electable of the three morons on the GOP side of things, but I don't see how they could justify it to their base.

With Cruz they could say that Trump won big early, but he's clearly faltering and now Cruz is winning and gathering momentum, so give him the nod.

Bringing in Ryan or Romney is almost more justifiable, as they could argue their best candidates weren't interested at first, but now they want to save the day for the GOP. A stretch, but has some logic.

But Kasich has gone through the primary process and, correct me if I'm wrong, has only won in Ohio. All else he's got in "strong seconds" in NH, maybe NY, and a few other states. As in, he's still not winning anywhere.

How can you justify someone who really hasn't won shit in the primaries to get the nod as nominee?

-----------------

www.albumism.com

Checkin' Our Style, Return To Zero:

https://www.mixcloud.com/returntozero/

  

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Mynoriti
Charter member
35651 posts
Mon Apr-11-16 06:31 PM

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25. "The establishment needs to just let Cruz or Trump lose"
In response to Reply # 20


  

          

Kasich in a unified party could probably beat Clinton or Sanders, considering Clinton's negatives, and Bernie's S-word stigma, but if they nominate Kasich, the party is most certainly split into two, or maybe three factions. For the already disgruntled with Republicans ultra-conservative crowd will have had it, and start their own Party of Constitutionalism and Religious Liberty, or whatever, and Trump's Make America white again party. Anti-clinton sanders sentiment wont be enough to put humpty back together.

and I think Ryan/Romney would be even worse for them and give even more of a sense that the game is rigged.

--------
http://ambitiondeficitdisorder.tumblr.com/

  

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murph71
Member since Sep 15th 2005
23113 posts
Mon Apr-11-16 07:02 PM

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28. "RE: The establishment needs to just let Cruz or Trump lose"
In response to Reply # 25


          

>Kasich in a unified party could probably beat Clinton or
>Sanders, considering Clinton's negatives, and Bernie's S-word
>stigma, but if they nominate Kasich, the party is most
>certainly split into two, or maybe three factions. For the
>already disgruntled with Republicans ultra-conservative crowd
>will have had it, and start their own Party of
>Constitutionalism and Religious Liberty, or whatever, and
>Trump's Make America white again party. Anti-clinton sanders
>sentiment wont be enough to put humpty back together.
>
>and I think Ryan/Romney would be even worse for them and give
>even more of a sense that the game is rigged.


Cut...Print....

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

  

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stravinskian
Member since Feb 24th 2003
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26. "Whatever they do it's a guaranteed shitshow."
In response to Reply # 20


          


I can't wait.

What worries me is that Republicans have a better history of coming together when it finally counts. The old cliche is that Democrats fall in love and Republicans fall in line. I think we're all hoping, with some justification, that today's Republican party is different. But still, it gives me pause.

  

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denny
Member since Apr 11th 2008
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Mon Apr-11-16 09:36 PM

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31. "The most likely version of this coming together"
In response to Reply # 26


          

HAS to be a Trump nomination.

  

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Mynoriti
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27. "Bernie did the right thing and the wrong thing running as a Dem"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Dude crushes in Wisconsin but winds up with 4 less delegates

"Welp... thems the rules!"

It's pretty gross

--------
http://ambitiondeficitdisorder.tumblr.com/

  

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stravinskian
Member since Feb 24th 2003
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29. "Well, they tied in Wisconsin delegates."
In response to Reply # 27


          


I'm annoyed about these stories about how Hillary won the delegates. Everyone agrees superdelegates can and do change allegiances, so we shouldn't count them until the convention. But it's too cute a story for a lot of reporters (and fucks like Joe Scarborough) to pass up.

On pledged delegates, they came out even in Wisconsin, and that's only because there are so few Democratic delegates in Wisconsin that a 12% lead is just barely too little to count for one. It was just rounding.

The superdelegate system is stupid (it exists for a good reason, but it's a hopelessly self defeating mechanism), but it will only be a real issue if superdelegates overrule a pledged delegate leader, which I don't think anyone ever expects to see.

  

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murph71
Member since Sep 15th 2005
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32. "RE: Well, they tied in Wisconsin delegates."
In response to Reply # 29


          


It's amazing, really. There are a lot of young Bernie voters that mirror Trump's supporters in terms of dishing out conspiracy theories because they are brand new to the concept of delegates...

Case in point: https://twitter.com/pbump/status/719364694449000448

And on the real, the NYT should know better than to entertain this stuff...lol

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

  

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Doomdata21
Member since Jul 21st 2002
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33. "Arizona"
In response to Reply # 32


  

          

...just look there for the why, Murph. Also, your characterization of Bernie supporters has a heavy tinge of condescension. The comparison to Donald Trump supporters is troubling at the least. Compare us to Obama supporters from '08, that rings more true in my opinion. Mercí beaucoup.

**Sig**
-Blackthought is the dopest emcee alive
-Uncle Sam and Santa Clause are good buddies.
-Be selfless and the world will be a better place.

  

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Jay Doz
Member since Dec 13th 2005
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36. "RE: Arizona"
In response to Reply # 33


  

          

>...just look there for the why, Murph. Also, your
>characterization of Bernie supporters has a heavy tinge of
>condescension. The comparison to Donald Trump supporters is
>troubling at the least. Compare us to Obama supporters from
>'08, that rings more true in my opinion. Mercí beaucoup.

Obama was an establishment candidate in 2008 though.

-------
"A man who is good enough to shed his blood for his country is good enough to be given a square deal afterwards. More than that no man is entitled, and less than that no man shall have." - TR

  

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Doomdata21
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38. "RE: Arizona"
In response to Reply # 36


  

          

I'm talking about the tone of hope and positive fervor. He ran as left of Hillary being a Washington outsider... relatively.

**Sig**
-Blackthought is the dopest emcee alive
-Uncle Sam and Santa Clause are good buddies.
-Be selfless and the world will be a better place.

  

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Jay Doz
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42. "you're absolutely right about the tone of their campaigns"
In response to Reply # 38


  

          

but i disagree about their politics. their platforms weren't fundamentally different

-------
"A man who is good enough to shed his blood for his country is good enough to be given a square deal afterwards. More than that no man is entitled, and less than that no man shall have." - TR

  

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maryhattalillamb
Member since May 27th 2006
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Tue Apr-12-16 09:13 AM

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40. "Really?"
In response to Reply # 36


          

Really?

A young black man is more establishment than a previous FLOTUS and Senator who had her hands in a lot of pots while her husband was POTUS

  

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Jay Doz
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41. "i didn't say any of that though"
In response to Reply # 40


  

          

-------
"A man who is good enough to shed his blood for his country is good enough to be given a square deal afterwards. More than that no man is entitled, and less than that no man shall have." - TR

  

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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
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Tue Apr-12-16 09:29 AM

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43. "IKR... Obama wasnt presented as an establishment candidate"
In response to Reply # 40


          

his supporters were on some Hope & Change and "he isnt one of them"

regardless of what he really was he ran as an outsider and we ate that shit up

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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Jay Doz
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45. "RE: IKR... Obama wasnt presented as an establishment candidate"
In response to Reply # 43


  

          

"regardless of what he really was he ran as an outsider and we ate that shit up"

but that's my point. his campaign's framing of him as an outsider doesn't change the fact that he was headlining million dollar DNC fundraisers.

-------
"A man who is good enough to shed his blood for his country is good enough to be given a square deal afterwards. More than that no man is entitled, and less than that no man shall have." - TR

  

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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
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47. "true, but since he was black..."
In response to Reply # 45


          

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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murph71
Member since Sep 15th 2005
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Tue Apr-12-16 11:57 AM

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50. "RE: IKR... Obama wasnt presented as an establishment candidate"
In response to Reply # 45
Tue Apr-12-16 12:02 PM by murph71

          

>"regardless of what he really was he ran as an outsider and
>we ate that shit up"
>
>but that's my point. his campaign's framing of him as an
>outsider doesn't change the fact that he was headlining
>million dollar DNC fundraisers.

This^^^^

Not only was he hosting those million dollar fundraisers (the same thing Clinton gets criticized for by the Bernie team), Obeezy was groomed from the outset to be an Establishment darling....

Again, it has to be said..."Outsider" political talent doesn't get prime time speaking slots at the Democratic convention...Obama was an establishment candidate who ran under a Hope and Change banner....But his politics were not that different than the establishment wing of the party....Oddly enough though Obama was forced to become much more progressive by his second term in office...

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

  

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stravinskian
Member since Feb 24th 2003
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Tue Apr-12-16 10:35 AM

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48. "The AZ issues appear to have hurt Clinton more than Sanders, though."
In response to Reply # 33


          


The polling had her ahead by more than in the final vote, and the districts with the longest lines were (no surprise) overwhelmingly poor and latino, both demographic groups that Clinton normally wins.

  

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Doomdata21
Member since Jul 21st 2002
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Tue Apr-12-16 12:53 PM

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52. "I guess we'll never know..."
In response to Reply # 48


  

          

what I do know is that Bernie support was most vociferous at the hearing about the alleged voter fraud.

**Sig**
-Blackthought is the dopest emcee alive
-Uncle Sam and Santa Clause are good buddies.
-Be selfless and the world will be a better place.

  

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murph71
Member since Sep 15th 2005
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49. "No....."
In response to Reply # 33
Tue Apr-12-16 12:04 PM by murph71

          


Arizona voting is GOP controlled...Those voting laws were enacted by Arizona's GOP similar to other new voting laws passed across the country in other GOP controlled states. It was done so because of the sizable growth of the Latino voting population....It had the intended affect on the Democratic side...What they didn't count on was for this shit to blow up in their own faces (there were also incredibly long lines on the Republican side...

Again, I know it makes some folks feel better that the Dem powerbrokers are fixing the game...But in this case its the Republicans that you should be looking at....

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

  

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Doomdata21
Member since Jul 21st 2002
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53. "Yes..."
In response to Reply # 49


  

          

it could be argued that the Repubs are more afraid of a showdown with Sanders than Clinton based on the national polls... maybe an unintended benefit ultimately. It's hard to say.

Oh, and of course at some level the Dem powerbrokers are fixing the game. At least, that's what I see.

**Sig**
-Blackthought is the dopest emcee alive
-Uncle Sam and Santa Clause are good buddies.
-Be selfless and the world will be a better place.

  

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murph71
Member since Sep 15th 2005
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54. "RE: Yes..."
In response to Reply # 53


          

>it could be argued that the Repubs are more afraid of a
>showdown with Sanders than Clinton based on the national
>polls... maybe an unintended benefit ultimately. It's hard to
>say.
>
>Oh, and of course at some level the Dem powerbrokers are
>fixing the game. At least, that's what I see.


No...they r not afraid of Bernie...One bit....

They are afraid of the Latino population coming out in droves to support the Democratic candidate, whether it's Clinton, Bernie or a fire hydrant....

But the point stands...Leave the Democratic-themed conspiracy theories to the Trump contingent....Bernie's problem is he's down by more than 2 million votes....If the shoe was on the other foot, trust, Hillary supporters would be whining the same way (like they did when she started to take L's against Obeezy..)

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

  

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Doomdata21
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55. "I believe that they are..."
In response to Reply # 54


  

          

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2016/president/2016_presidential_race.html

**Sig**
-Blackthought is the dopest emcee alive
-Uncle Sam and Santa Clause are good buddies.
-Be selfless and the world will be a better place.

  

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murph71
Member since Sep 15th 2005
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56. "RE: I believe that they are..."
In response to Reply # 55


          

>http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2016/president/2016_presidential_race.html


Nah....Right now Repugs are salivating at the oppo research on Bernie....Trust....Clinton has already been through the ringer....Bernie? He's that new cooked food...

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

  

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Doomdata21
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58. "What they got?"
In response to Reply # 56


  

          

Socialism?
I think that term doesn't scare most folks like it did maybe 20 years ago.

Too old?
Bernie is pretty energetic and doing fine with the rigors of the campaign trail. Hillary isn't a spring chicken herself.

Mass Appeal?
Bernie garners the largest amount of interest as far as campaigning because his ideas resonate. The more people get to know him the better he does.

Political Record?
He currently possesses the most consistent record of all the candidates. Can work with both sides of the aisle.

Foreign Policy?
Doesn't prey on fears so I guess that works for the GOP and maybe Hillary to a small extent, but I think that the world at large is behind his policy as well as the soldiers... not sure about military brass

I could go on and on.

Clinton is a known quantity yet she still has new stuff popping up like whack a mole... what's up with that? Do we feel secure with that? I think you brought up before that the Feds digging in her activities could roll snake eyes.

**Sig**
-Blackthought is the dopest emcee alive
-Uncle Sam and Santa Clause are good buddies.
-Be selfless and the world will be a better place.

  

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murph71
Member since Sep 15th 2005
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Tue Apr-12-16 03:40 PM

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59. "RE: What they got?"
In response to Reply # 58


          

>Socialism?
>I think that term doesn't scare most folks like it did maybe
>20 years ago.

This is true^^^^when it's formed around bullshit...It means nothing when Repugs screamed that Obama was a socialist because it was all coded racism....

Unfortunately, Bernie won't have an easier time because he calls himself a socialist....Something tells me those fly over and swing state voters don't know the difference between a communist and a socialist....

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

  

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Doomdata21
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60. "I think that healthcare for all might peek their interest as well..."
In response to Reply # 59


  

          

I also think that bringing the Wall Street banks to task will resonate quite a bit louder than this democratic socialist business. I'd love to see the cognitive dissonance in real-time.

Of course you and I know that society has plenty of socialist examples that people benefit from despite their preconceived notions... libraries, postal service, highways/roads, etc...

**Sig**
-Blackthought is the dopest emcee alive
-Uncle Sam and Santa Clause are good buddies.
-Be selfless and the world will be a better place.

  

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murph71
Member since Sep 15th 2005
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Tue Apr-12-16 04:19 PM

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62. "RE: I think that healthcare for all might peek their interest as well..."
In response to Reply # 60


          





Not everyone thinks like us....The world is bigger than our more liberal, inclusive bubble.....

Most of the time people vote against their own interests.....All they will see is a big S on Bernie's chest...

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

  

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Doomdata21
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Tue Apr-12-16 04:44 PM

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65. "What letter does Hillary carry around?"
In response to Reply # 62


  

          

Whether it's I for Indictment or F for Flip flop... these albatrosses are gonna be attacked and I don't know if she can explain it away to the general. Bernie hasn't hit all those spots because he doesn't want to go there. I imagine the GOP won't be as above the belt.

**Sig**
-Blackthought is the dopest emcee alive
-Uncle Sam and Santa Clause are good buddies.
-Be selfless and the world will be a better place.

  

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murph71
Member since Sep 15th 2005
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Tue Apr-12-16 05:35 PM

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67. "RE: What letter does Hillary carry around?"
In response to Reply # 65


          



A big D....

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

  

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Doomdata21
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68. "Her D looking old and crusty..."
In response to Reply # 67


  

          

Bernie D(s) looking like the new hotness

**Sig**
-Blackthought is the dopest emcee alive
-Uncle Sam and Santa Clause are good buddies.
-Be selfless and the world will be a better place.

  

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murph71
Member since Sep 15th 2005
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80. "RE: Her D looking old and crusty..."
In response to Reply # 68


          



That D looking like 2 million plus more votes....

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

  

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Doomdata21
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95. "I'll keep watching that scoreboard..."
In response to Reply # 80


  

          

and let the cards fall where they may. Good luck, buddy.

**Sig**
-Blackthought is the dopest emcee alive
-Uncle Sam and Santa Clause are good buddies.
-Be selfless and the world will be a better place.

  

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maryhattalillamb
Member since May 27th 2006
149 posts
Tue Apr-12-16 09:05 AM

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39. "CP Time: If only Trump or Cruz made that joke"
In response to Reply # 0


          

I guess it's only a matter of time before HRC will start using the N-word (with A not ER of course).

  

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denny
Member since Apr 11th 2008
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66. "Jesus...."
In response to Reply # 39


          

What were they thinking?

Best guess would be that the joke writer was black and then not questioned by the white people around them thinking 'well if HE/SHE thinks it's ok then it must be ok' type of thing.

I hope Bernie leaves this alone though. It will be a bad look for him to try to pounce on this. It's not his place to tell other people what they should or shouldn't be offended by. I'm confidant he'll leave this alone.

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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Tue Apr-12-16 09:30 AM

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44. "Good pragmatist versus purist article. "
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

http://tvline.com/2016/03/20/walking-dead-recap-season-6-episode-14-carol-leaves-melissa-mcbride/
>


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

  

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denny
Member since Apr 11th 2008
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Wed Apr-13-16 03:37 AM

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71. "Curious to know why you're so scared of Kasich?"
In response to Reply # 44
Wed Apr-13-16 03:39 AM by denny

          

What do you think are some examples of tangible differences between a Clinton presidency and a Kasich one?

They seem pretty similar to me. Kasich has said he would repeal Obamacare....but he's pretty soft on that. I'm not entirely convinced he would actually make a genuine attempt at that. Perhaps a lame one meant to please his base but not intended to succeed. As we all know he seemed pretty down with Obamacare as governor. So arguably not something to worry about in a pragmatic sense. Kasich is pro-life....but would that really amount to anything? Bush was pro-life too. Would there be any practical consequences on a national level? Roe V Wade is pretty safe. Alot of the other areas like foreign policy they seem pretty similar.

I'm not a Clinton supporter so my premise might not be accepted by others....but the biggest difference between them in my eyes is Clinton's empty rhetoric. She'll pay more lip service to liberal values than Kasich...'we need to be whole'.....but I'm not convinced any of that will result in substantial, tangible differences if we're thinking pragmatically.

  

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stravinskian
Member since Feb 24th 2003
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Wed Apr-13-16 07:14 AM

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74. "Jesus almighty."
In response to Reply # 71


          

Hopefully this kind of thinking isn't common among the Bernie supporters come the fall. It's awfully reminiscent of the "Gore is no better than Bush" idea, which I hope we can all agree was thoroughly and disastrously wrong.

Kasich is not the aw-shucks, middle-of-the-road, friendly conservative that his campaign is trying to sell. He was a leader in the Gingrich revolution, including the government shutdown and the Clinton impeachment. He's a firm believer in austerity economics. He literally worked for Goldman Sachs (that's paychecks, not just donations!). He's severely restricted abortion access in Ohio. And as he told us forcefully in his reelection campaign, he was never 'soft' on Obamacare. He accepted the funds for Medicaid expansion, but he still strongly favors repeal, even including the Medicaid expansion. I could go on and on about Kasich.

And as much as you might not trust Hillary Clinton, Barack Obama clearly does trust her, at the very least to sustain his legacy. And that's not just a slogan: because of the lockstep Republican opposition that he's faced, everything the administration has accomplished for three quarters of his presidency has been through executive actions, not permanent laws. If a Republican, any Republican, wins in the fall then the last six years of the Obama presidency will have been for naught (arguably all eight, if they go ahead with Obamacare repeal, which again John Kasich is on record supporting whether or not there's a replacement, and he'll have the power to do thanks to the Republican control of Congress).

A long argument could be had both about Kasich and about Clinton, but it really shouldn't be necessary. There is one pressing issue that overrides all others: the Supreme Court is currently at a 4-4 ideological split. This is the one branch of government that actually still gets things done on domestic policy. Justices Ginsburg and Breyer are both near retirement (or worse, not to be morbid). So if the next president is a Republican, any Republican, the court will be 6-3 or even 7-2 conservative for an entire generation. If the next president is a Democrat, any Democrat, he or she will be able to solidify a 5-4 liberal majority at least until Justice Breyer retires (and maybe beyond that, if Breyer and/or Thomas has to step down during the term). You act like George W Bush didn't do anything on abortion, but there are at least two very profound things that he did that would actually contribute to the overturning of Roe v Wade if a Republican is elected this fall: John Roberts and Sam Alito.

There are plenty more reasons that a Clinton presidency would be a hell of a lot better than a Kasich presidency. But this alone is enough for me. I'm on record saying that I don't like Bernie Sanders, that I don't trust him, and that even if elected, I think he would be a bad president and would set back many of the issues he claims to care about. Nonetheless, the Supreme Court alone is enough to make it so that I would vehemently support him in the fall, if it came to that.


  

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murph71
Member since Sep 15th 2005
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81. "RE: Jesus almighty."
In response to Reply # 74


          




I'm saying.....

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

  

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Mynoriti
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82. "Yeah people are losing sight of how terrible Kasich, Ryan, Rubio, etc.."
In response to Reply # 74


  

          

really are. The extreme and wacky politics of Cruz and Trump are giving the illusion that someone like Paul Ryan is a fair and balanced reasonable man and not awful for this country in his own right. Aside from the obvious SCOTUS, and these guys being on the shit side of every issue, we JUST recovered from the worst recession in 80 years, and Ryan wants to go right back to Bush's economic policies, but of course take it further on this trickle down bullshit.

These so-called grown up republicans may really benefit from all this, because this season has really added to the illusion that if Cruz is the extreme right, and Clinton/Obama/Bernie (no difference to them) are the extreme left, the middle is John Kasich.

--------
http://ambitiondeficitdisorder.tumblr.com/

  

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denny
Member since Apr 11th 2008
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Wed Apr-13-16 04:59 PM

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84. "My perception is:"
In response to Reply # 82


          

Extreme Right: Cruz.

Left: Bernie

Right of Center: Kasich, Clinton

Even he doesn't know: Trump.

  

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murph71
Member since Sep 15th 2005
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Wed Apr-13-16 05:21 PM

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85. "RE: My perception is:"
In response to Reply # 84


          

>Extreme Right: Cruz.
>
>Left: Bernie
>
>Right of Center: Kasich, Clinton


Man...The only thing Kasich would "kind" of agree on with Hilldawg is foreign policy...

Everything else? ....come on....lol

Kasich ass gets a hard on from closing Planned Parenthood clinics...U really gotta read up on that dude....

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

  

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denny
Member since Apr 11th 2008
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Wed Apr-13-16 05:27 PM

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86. "How would his pro-life stance"
In response to Reply # 85
Wed Apr-13-16 05:28 PM by denny

          

have practical consequences or pragmatic results as president?

I'm not snarking....I'm open to be convinced otherwise. Will 16 year olds in New York who need to get abortions face a different reality under a Kasich presidency than a Clinton one? I know about what he did in Ohio. But how does that manifest in role as president?

Again...if Clinton supporters are gonna constantly use the 'pragmatic' line then these questions need to be asked.

  

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murph71
Member since Sep 15th 2005
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Wed Apr-13-16 05:34 PM

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87. "RE: How would his pro-life stance"
In response to Reply # 86


          

>have practical consequences or pragmatic results as
>president?
>
>I'm not snarking....I'm open to be convinced otherwise. Will
>16 year olds in New York who need to get abortions face a
>different reality under a Kasich presidency than a Clinton
>one? I know about what he did in Ohio. But how does that
>manifest in role as president?
>
>Again...if Clinton supporters are gonna constantly use the
>'pragmatic' line then these questions need to be asked.


Huh? It's called the Supreme Court, homie....If u know anything about what Kasich has been up to in stopping PP funding and closing clinics it would have a huge impact with ANYONE that holds that same ideology. becoming President..There's a lot more too...His treatment of unions is also shady...

Nah...they r not the same...At all....

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

  

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denny
Member since Apr 11th 2008
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Wed Apr-13-16 05:39 PM

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89. "RE: How would his pro-life stance"
In response to Reply # 87
Wed Apr-13-16 05:50 PM by denny

          

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/john-kasich-id-consider-nominating-merrick-garland-supreme-court-election-2016/

Again...I'm not saying there's not idealogical differences. I'm contending that those idealogical differences may not result in any pragmatic consequences.

Full disclosure....I'm using this hypothetical to show that the principle of supporting Hillary over Bernie on a purely pragmatic basis (which Strav is pretty clearly not doing but what many others are) is a slippery slope.

I can't be the only one who it's occurred to......a purely pragmatic liberal who supports Bernie's idealogy but is scared to support him on a pragmatic basis might be more inclined to want Hillary against Trump/Cruz....but then because of diminishing consequences....want Bernie against Kasich.

  

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Mynoriti
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Wed Apr-13-16 05:38 PM

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88. "Kasich is to the right of Hillary on every issue"
In response to Reply # 84


  

          

abortion rights, massive tax cuts for the wealthy, cutting public education, he's against same sex marriage, he's for private prisons, he acknowledges climate change, but not that we should do anything about it, etc... Cruz and Bernie's purism is making Kasich and Hillary seem more similar than they really are.

In terms of policy, Hillary is damn near lock step with Obama. And i think Hillary lacks Obama's character, trustworthiness, and she's def more hawkish, for the most part there's really not much daylight between them on policy.

--------
http://ambitiondeficitdisorder.tumblr.com/

  

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Vex_id
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90. "except for perhaps the largest issue the next president will deal with:"
In response to Reply # 88


          

war and foreign policy in the Mid-East. He's actually to the left of Clinton on that gigantic issue.

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Mynoriti
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119. "perhaps, but not really"
In response to Reply # 90


  

          

while she's absolutely to the right of Obama in that respect, Kasich isn't exactly Ron Paul on foreign policy. He's sounded resaonable at times but has also mentioned being down with boots on the ground against isis, boots on the ground in libya, boots on the ground in Syria, no fly zone in Syria. even action against russia if they get too froggy... It's just not really hard to sound halfway reasonable when your opponents on your side are talking about killing the families of terrorists, or carpet bombing.

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http://ambitiondeficitdisorder.tumblr.com/

  

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denny
Member since Apr 11th 2008
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Thu Apr-14-16 03:19 PM

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123. "Dude...."
In response to Reply # 119
Thu Apr-14-16 03:24 PM by denny

          

I (and others) are NOT categorizing Hillary as right of center just because of Trump and Cruz. She's been on the political scene for a long time. I have always thought of her this way.

Her husband Bill was basically the pioneer of democrats accepting conservatives as their own. Compared to the mean average of every other political party in the free world....the Clintons are to the right of center.

This skewed perception you're talking about is what american democrats have been ailing from for 25 years. The 1% used to be taxed at a rate of 70% before Reagan. Trickle-down theory brought that down to 28%. Clinton under-compensated in raising it back to 39%. Barely half of what it was before. Not exactly 'left-wing'.

Bernie is only 'extreme-left' in 2016 America. He is, in fact, a restoration of what democrats USED to be before the Clintons started in with their own version of 'tough on crime' and laissez faire economics.

  

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Mynoriti
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127. "are you replying to the right reply?"
In response to Reply # 123


  

          


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http://ambitiondeficitdisorder.tumblr.com/

  

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denny
Member since Apr 11th 2008
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Thu Apr-14-16 04:32 PM

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130. "Yes."
In response to Reply # 127


          

You keep insisting that we're only seeing Hillary as a conservative in democratic disguise in light of the other candidates. That's not true. And I'd argue that it's Hillary supporters who have, in fact, been duped into thinking she's more liberal than she really is because of the paradigm shift that started with her husband.

  

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Mynoriti
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131. "No. I'm pointing out that Hillary is to the left of Kasich"
In response to Reply # 130


  

          

On pretty much everything. And pointed out several examples

I'm not making an argument that Hillary is a liberal. She's a standard, run of the mill democrat, which while not a progressive, still puts her very much to the left of John Kasich. There's this line of thinking among liberals (and conservatives) that Hillary and Kasich are basically the same. They're not. at all.

>You keep insisting that we're only seeing Hillary as a
>conservative in democratic disguise in light of the other
>candidates. That's not true. And I'd argue that it's Hillary
>supporters who have, in fact, been duped into thinking she's
>more liberal than she really is because of the paradigm shift
>that started with her husband.

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http://ambitiondeficitdisorder.tumblr.com/

  

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Vex_id
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132. "Kasich's record on foreign policy is inconsistent; often contradictory"
In response to Reply # 119


          

But Clinton's record on foreign policy is rock-solid consistent: She's a war-hawk who has voted for military intervention and has been the loudest proponent of regime-change abroad within the Democratic party for years now.

Unlike Clinton - Kasich actually has stood against military intervention and senseless militarism - whether it was against Reagan's 1983 plan to militarize Lebanon - or his common sense stance on exercising restraint in Libya (he even called Clinton out for her war hawk'ing in Libya) - he actually has proven to be the more sensible, careful purveyor of military force when you contrast his record with Clinton's.

Now - that's not saying much. Kasich has a pretty horrific record on foreign policy, en masse. It's just that Clinton's record on war and foreign policy is *so* abominable that it actually makes Kasich look fairly decent in comparison.

So when we try to champion Clinton's progressive credentials - yet gloss over her deplorable foreign policy record - we do a disservice to not just America's security - but global security at-large.

-->

  

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Mynoriti
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142. "she's actually not more consistent than him either"
In response to Reply # 132


  

          

and i don't entirely disagree with what you said, but consistently warhawkish.. that's John McCain. Hillary is hawkish, but also will take the opposite position. The problem though is that i feel speaks to the bigger issue with Hillary. Not that she's not 'progressive' enough, but that she tends to adopt whatever positions that are politically popular. It's where she veers from Obama even though they're similar on policy. Right now america is still war weary, but given a terrorist attack, that could change pretty quicly. in THAT sense, I think Kasich would be more likely to have a level head on this, but i still wouldn't call him to the left of her lol

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http://ambitiondeficitdisorder.tumblr.com/

  

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Vex_id
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181. "Where has she taken the opposite position ?"
In response to Reply # 142
Fri Apr-15-16 10:29 AM by Vex_id

          

Hillary is
>hawkish, but also will take the opposite position.

I can't seem to find an instance where we've been debating intervening in a war where Clinton has stood on the side of not intervening. Certainly wasn't Iraq - wasn't Libya (which Obama now admits was the greatest mistake of his presidency) - definitely isn't in Syria. So where has she taken the opposite position?

The problem
>though is that i feel speaks to the bigger issue with Hillary.
>Not that she's not 'progressive' enough, but that she tends to
>adopt whatever positions that are politically popular.

On social and economic issues (from gay marriage and civil liberties to trade deals and regulation) - absolutely - she's been very fairweather. On war and foreign policy? rock-solid consistent.


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denny
Member since Apr 11th 2008
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Wed Apr-13-16 04:39 PM

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83. "RE: Jesus almighty."
In response to Reply # 74
Wed Apr-13-16 04:53 PM by denny

          

>Hopefully this kind of thinking isn't common among the Bernie
>supporters come the fall. It's awfully reminiscent of the
>"Gore is no better than Bush" idea, which I hope we can all
>agree was thoroughly and disastrously wrong.

>Kasich is not the aw-shucks, middle-of-the-road, friendly
>conservative that his campaign is trying to sell. He was a
>leader in the Gingrich revolution, including the government
>shutdown and the Clinton impeachment. He's a firm believer in
>austerity economics. He literally worked for Goldman Sachs
>(that's paychecks, not just donations!). He's severely
>restricted abortion access in Ohio. And as he told us
>forcefully in his reelection campaign, he was never 'soft' on
>Obamacare. He accepted the funds for Medicaid expansion, but
>he still strongly favors repeal, even including the Medicaid
>expansion. I could go on and on about Kasich.

His repug opponents have accused him time and time again as being in favor of obamacare. His limp-wristed responses make it pretty clear to me that he's not out to tear it down. And these other observations you're making are mostly what Buddy has identified as being what he DOESN'T vote based on. I'm paraphrasing Buddy here....but he's said that it's not about who they are or what they say. It's about the real, pragmatic results of their presidency. I think you're greatly overstating those differences. The lip service might be different....I'd contend the actual results wouldn't be.


>There are plenty more reasons that a Clinton presidency would
>be a hell of a lot better than a Kasich presidency. But this
>alone is enough for me. I'm on record saying that I don't like
>Bernie Sanders, that I don't trust him, and that even if
>elected, I think he would be a bad president and would set
>back many of the issues he claims to care about. Nonetheless,
>the Supreme Court alone is enough to make it so that I would
>vehemently support him in the fall, if it came to that.

But again though....if we're being pragmatic:

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/john-kasich-id-consider-nominating-merrick-garland-supreme-court-election-2016/

And keep in mind...these are the statements he's making WHILE running in the primary. How much MORE similar to a Clinton/Obama platform will he get to in the general? Then you have to anticipate Clinton pivoting right in the general from the positions she's undertaken against Sanders? It results in a very unpragmatic decision between the two in my eyes.

Here's why I'm even bringing this up.....it's obviously a hypothetical argument. Kasich doesn't have a chance. And the pragmatic argument for supporting Clinton is crystal clear if the GOP selects Trump or Cruz. But in principle....I'd contend that any pragmatic reason for supporting Clinton would, in the very least, be less justifiable against a Kasich presidency.

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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Thu Apr-14-16 11:26 AM

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103. "Pretty Simple. the Supreme Court. "
In response to Reply # 71


  

          

If you say Roe V Wade is safe you might want to pay more attention to Whole Woman’s Health v. Hellerstedt. Good read here.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2016/03/02/what-is-whole-womens-health-v-hellerstedt-scotus-aboriton-case/?tid=a_inl

if you Colin Powell'ing that there is Samantha Bee's take:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/samantha-bee-texas-abortion-law_us_56d65db8e4b0871f60ed323e

The next president will reshape the court for the next 30 years and that's enough to make any Republican candidate intolerable for me.



**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

  

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murph71
Member since Sep 15th 2005
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Tue Apr-12-16 12:15 PM

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51. "Samantha Bee on super delegates...."
In response to Reply # 0


          



Ol' girl is on fire....Oh...and Bee is right...Once u understand the history of the Democratic party then its easy to see why they enacted the Superdelegate rule....The irony? It has never had an impact on any Presidential race...

Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XtuWiHYmr4U

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

  

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denny
Member since Apr 11th 2008
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Tue Apr-12-16 04:39 PM

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64. "Good video."
In response to Reply # 51
Tue Apr-12-16 04:44 PM by denny

          

I don't agree with the Sander's supporters on stuff like this. Especially the obvious crazy ones prone to conspiracy theories.

But one thing that isn't addressed is the way that superdelegates are used to control the narrative. Different media outlets will decide to use them (or not) based on bias. So you might claim that 'they've never impacted an election' based on actual voting statistics....that's a little more foggy a contention when you account for their infuence they have on those actual votes.

Now this is a much lesser contention than what some Sander's supporters are saying. And it may not even be reason to change anything. Let's face it....we're not going to eliminate the potential for political spin. But it's a factor nonetheless and I don't think it's unreasonable to suggest the inclusion of 'committed' superdelegate votes has hurt the Sander's compaing to at least some degree. One can make that observation without also calling it a travesty of justice (which I don't think it is).

  

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murph71
Member since Sep 15th 2005
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Wed Apr-13-16 07:33 AM

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76. "RE: Good video."
In response to Reply # 64
Wed Apr-13-16 07:46 AM by murph71

          



It's a non issue...It comes down to winning....If u get more votes than your opponent then the super delegates will switch... Trust, if Bernie was leading Clinton in straight no chaser votes they would indeed drop her ass....

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

  

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Mynoriti
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Tue Apr-12-16 04:07 PM

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61. "Paul Ryan still on this coy "Who, me?" shit"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

They really might be dumb enough to go down this road, and I really don't believe the base will accept this shit sandwich this time around

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http://ambitiondeficitdisorder.tumblr.com/

  

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denny
Member since Apr 11th 2008
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Tue Apr-12-16 11:42 PM

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69. "Well Trump absolutely smashed the family town hall."
In response to Reply # 0


          

Probably his best televised performance of the campaign. His daughters and sons sounded prepared and rehearsed....but also sincere and genuine. This played much better for him than Kasich. I'd bet Cruz is sweating this. He's the one I thought this format might be the most threatening to.

Personally, i think this shit is irrelevant. Or at least should be. But there's no doubt that Trump nailed it tonight. Hard to say how impactful it could be....but this will definitely not hurt him.

  

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Dr Claw
Member since Jun 25th 2003
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Wed Apr-13-16 04:37 AM

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72. "Kasich needs to keep losing. I don't want him on any ballot."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

  

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murph71
Member since Sep 15th 2005
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Wed Apr-13-16 07:28 AM

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75. "RE: Kasich needs to keep losing. I don't want him on any ballot."
In response to Reply # 72


          



He's not there to get on the ballot...

He's there to keep Trump from reaching that magical number of delegates....

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

  

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stravinskian
Member since Feb 24th 2003
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Wed Apr-13-16 07:34 AM

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77. "He's there to get on the ballot too."
In response to Reply # 75


          


It may be unrealistic for him at this point, but it's unrealistic for any of them, and the party has to settle on SOMEONE.

  

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murph71
Member since Sep 15th 2005
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Wed Apr-13-16 07:42 AM

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78. "RE: He's there to get on the ballot too."
In response to Reply # 77


          



Nah...He knows damn well he's not getting on that ballot...Dude is there to make sure Trump walks in under the delegate count....If by some miracle he gets his name on the ballot that's gravy...But he's all about playing spoiler...Kasich and the establishment Republicans don't want Trump anywhere near the general....But it may not matter...They may be forced to give it to him....

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

  

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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
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Wed Apr-13-16 08:40 AM

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79. "lmao @ Kasich holding the GOP hostage over Ohio.."
In response to Reply # 78


          

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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veritas
Member since Sep 16th 2002
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Wed Apr-13-16 09:40 PM

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91. "Apparently Trump is trying to rally PA voters by calling for Joe Paterno"
In response to Reply # 0


          

To be reinstated as coach of PSU.

That's gonna take some doing.

i still blame hip-hop.

  

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bentagain
Member since Mar 19th 2008
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Wed Apr-13-16 11:36 PM

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93. "Hillary Clinton's Defense of Her Role in Honduras Coup"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Why didn't anybody have the balls to ask her this during the univision debate, or before we're this far into the primaries?

http://www.democracynow.org/2016/4/13/hear_hillary_clinton_defend_her_role

TRANSCRIPT
This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.
AMY GOODMAN: With the New York primary less than a week away, the race for the Democratic nomination continues to heat up. Hillary Clinton and Bernie Sanders will meet Thursday in Brooklyn for their first debate in over a month. We begin today’s show looking at Hillary Clinton and Honduras. Earlier this week, the former secretary of state publicly defended her role in the 2009 coup in Honduras, when the military seized democratically elected President Manuel Zelaya in the middle of the night, deposed him and sent him into exile. Since the coup, Honduras has become one of the most violent places in the world. Clinton was asked about Honduras during a meeting with the New York Daily News editorial board on Saturday. The question was posed by Democracy Now!’s Juan González.

JUAN GONZÁLEZ: Secretary Clinton, I’d like to ask you, if I can, about Latin America—

HILLARY CLINTON: Yes, Juan, yes.

JUAN GONZÁLEZ: —and a policy specifically that you were directly involved in: the coup in Honduras.

HILLARY CLINTON: Mm-hmm.

JUAN GONZÁLEZ: As you know, in 2009, the military overthrew President Zelaya.

HILLARY CLINTON: Right.

JUAN GONZÁLEZ: There was a period there where the OAS was trying to isolate that regime. But the—apparently, some of the emails that have come out as a result of State Department releases show that some of your top aides were urging you to declare it a military coup, cut off U.S. aid. You didn’t do that.

HILLARY CLINTON: Mm-hmm.

JUAN GONZÁLEZ: You ended up negotiating with Óscar Arias a deal for new elections.

HILLARY CLINTON: Mm-hmm, right.

JUAN GONZÁLEZ: But the situation in Honduras has continued to deteriorate.

HILLARY CLINTON: Right.

JUAN GONZÁLEZ: There’s been a few hundred people killed by government forces. There’s been all these children fleeing, and mothers, from Honduras over the border into the United States. And just a few weeks ago, one of the leading environmental activists, Berta Cáceres, was assassinated in her home.

HILLARY CLINTON: Right, right.

JUAN GONZÁLEZ: Do you have any concerns about the role that you played in that particular situation, not necessarily being in agreement with your top aides in the State Department?

HILLARY CLINTON: Well, let me again try to put this in context. The Legislature—or the national Legislature in Honduras and the national judiciary actually followed the law in removing President Zelaya. Now, I didn’t like the way it looked or the way they did it, but they had a very strong argument that they had followed the Constitution and the legal precedents. And as you know, they really undercut their argument by spiriting him out of the country in his pajamas, where they sent, you know, the military to, you know, take him out of his bed and get him out of the country. So this was—this began as a very mixed and difficult situation.

If the United States government declares a coup, you immediately have to shut off all aid, including humanitarian aid, the Agency for International Development aid, the support that we were providing at that time for a lot of very poor people. And that triggers a legal necessity. There’s no way to get around it. So, our assessment was, we will just make the situation worse by punishing the Honduran people if we declare a coup and we immediately have to stop all aid for the people, but we should slow off and try to stop anything that the government could take advantage of, without calling it a coup.

So, you’re right. I worked very hard with leaders in the region and got Óscar Arias, the Nobel Prize winner, to take the lead on trying to broker a resolution without bloodshed. And that was very important to us, that, you know, Zelaya had friends and allies, not just in Honduras, but in some of the neighboring countries, like Nicaragua, and that we could have had a terrible civil war that would have been just terrifying in its loss of life. So I think we came out with a solution that did hold new elections, but it did not in any way address the structural, systemic problems in that society. And I share your concern that it’s not just government actions; drug gangs, traffickers of all kinds are preying on the people of Honduras.

So I think we need to do more of a Colombian plan for Central America, because remember what was going on in Colombia when first my husband and then followed by President Bush had Plan Colombia, which was to try to use our leverage to rein in the government in their actions against the FARC and the guerrillas, but also to help the government stop the advance of the FARC and guerrillas, and now we’re in the middle of peace talks. It didn’t happen overnight; it took a number of years. But I want to see a much more comprehensive approach toward Central America, because it’s not just Honduras. The highest murder rate is in El Salvador, and we’ve got Guatemala with all the problems you know so well.

So, I think, in retrospect, we managed a very difficult situation, without bloodshed, without a civil war, that led to a new election. And I think that was better for the Honduran people. But we have a lot of work to do to try to help stabilize that and deal with corruption, deal with the violence and the gangs and so much else.


http://www.democracynow.org/2016/4/13/shes_baldly_lying_dana_frank_responds

"She's Baldly Lying": Dana Frank Responds

TRANSCRIPT
This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.
AMY GOODMAN: For more on Honduras, we are joined by—Hillary Clinton and the legacy of the 2009 coup—Dana Frank, is professor of history at the University of California, Santa Cruz, and an expert on human rights and U.S. policy in Honduras.

Professor Frank, it’s great to have you with us. Well, Hillary Clinton said a lot in this five-minute exchange with Juan González. Respond.

DANA FRANK: Well, I just want to say this is like breathtaking that she’d say these things. I think we’re all kind of reeling that she would both defend the coup and defend her own role in supporting its stabilization in the aftermath. I mean, first of all, the fact that she says that they did it legally, that the Honduras judiciary and Congress did this legally, is like, oh, my god, just mind-boggling. The fact that she then is going to say that it was not an unconstitutional coup is incredible, when she actually had a cable, that we have in the WikiLeaks, in which U.S. Ambassador to Honduras Hugo Llorens says it was very clearly an illegal and unconstitutional coup. So she knows this from day one. She even admits in her own statement that it was the Honduran military, that she says, well, this was the only thing that was wrong there, that it was the military that took Zelaya out of the country, as opposed to somehow that it was an illegal thing we did—that the Honduran government did, deposing a president.

AMY GOODMAN: I want to turn to that WikiLeaks cable on Honduras. The U.S. Embassy in Tegucigalpa, the capital of Honduras, sent a cable to Washington on July 24, 2009, less than a month after the coup. The subject line was "Open and Shut: The Case of the Honduran Coup." The cable asserted, quote, "there is no doubt" that the events of June 28, 2009, "constituted an illegal and unconstitutional coup," unquote. The Embassy listed arguments by supporters of the coup to claim its legality, and dismissed each of them, saying, quote, "none ... has any substantive validity under the Honduran constitution." The Embassy went on to say the Honduran military had no legal authority to remove President Zelaya from office or from Honduras. The Embassy also characterized the Honduran military’s actions as an "abduction" and kidnapping that was unconstitutional. Again, this was the U.S. Embassy memo that was sent from Honduras to Washington. Professor Frank?

DANA FRANK: Well, I want to make sure that the listeners understand how chilling it is that the leading presidential—a leading presidential candidate in the United States would say this was not a coup. The second thing is that she’s baldly lying when she says we never called it a coup; we didn’t, because that would mean we have to suspend the aid. Well, first of all, they repeatedly called it a coup. We can see State Department statements for months calling it a coup and confirming, yes, we call it a coup. What she refused to do was to use the phrase "military coup." So, she split hairs, because Section 7008 of the State and Foreign Operations Appropriations Act for that year very clearly says that if it’s a coup significantly involving the military, the U.S. has to immediately suspend all aid. So she—they decided to have this interpretation that it was a coup, but not a military coup. So, she, Hillary Clinton—and Obama, for that matter, I want to make clear—in violation of U.S. law, that very clearly said if there’s a coup, they have to cut the military aid and that—all other aid to the country, she violated the law, decided, well, it wasn’t a military coup, when of course it was. It was the military that put him on the plane, which she says in her statement.

AMY GOODMAN: I mean, the memo is very clear.

DANA FRANK: Well, the Hugo Llorens cable is very clear. But look, even what she said on Saturday, she says, well, the military put him on the plane; that was the only problem here. She’s admitting it was a military-led coup and that so, therefore, she’s in violation of the law—so is Obama—by not immediately suspending the aid. And here she’s saying, "Well, we never called it a coup." I mean, hello, we have so many public statements in which the State Department called it a coup.

AMY GOODMAN: In March 2010, Secretary of State Hillary Clinton traveled to meet with the Honduran president, Porfirio "Pepe" Lobo, whose election was boycotted by opponents of the coup that overthrew Zelaya. Hillary Clinton urged Latin American countries at the time to normalize ties with the coup government.

SECRETARY OF STATE HILLARY CLINTON: We think that Honduras has taken important and necessary steps that deserve the recognition and the normalization of relations. I have just sent a letter to the Congress of the United States notifying them that we will be restoring aid to Honduras. Other countries in the region say that, you know, they want to wait a while. I don’t know what they’re waiting for, but that’s their right, to wait.

AMY GOODMAN: That was Hillary Clinton in 2010, Professor Frank.

DANA FRANK: I mean, what she did at the time was she played out the strategy—Obama and Clinton played out the strategy—that they would delay negotiations. They treated Micheletti, the post-coup dictator, as an equal partner to democratically elected President Zelaya, moved the negotiations into a sphere they could control and then delayed until the already scheduled elections in November. The problem, as you say, is that this—that almost all the opposition had pulled out of that election. All international observers, like the Carter Center or the U.N., had pulled out, refusing to observe that election—the only observers were the U.S. Republican Party—and saying that this was not a legitimate election. And then, the very first—that day, even before the polls close, the U.S. recognizes the outcome of the election. And this is what we used to call a demonstration election: Let’s just have any election and call this over and call that election—call that election legitimate.

AMY GOODMAN: Also in 2010, at the annual meeting of the Organization of American States, member nations remained divided over whether to allow Honduras back into the OAS. Honduras was expelled from the body the year before, after the military coup ousted Zelaya. This is Hillary Clinton then.

SECRETARY OF STATE HILLARY CLINTON: Our ongoing discussions about Honduras makes clear the urgency of this agenda. As we emphasized, when the United States along with the rest of the hemisphere condemned the coup in Honduras, these interruptions of democracy should be completely relegated to the past. And it is a credit to this organization that they have become all but nonexistent in the Americas. Now it is time for the hemisphere, as a whole, to move forward and welcome Honduras back into the inter-American community.

AMY GOODMAN: In her memoir, Hard Choices, Democratic presidential hopeful Hillary Clinton wrote about the days following the 2009 coup in Honduras that ousted the democratically elected president, Mel Zelaya. She wrote, quote, "In the subsequent days I spoke with my counterparts around the hemisphere, including Secretary Espinosa in Mexico. We strategized on a plan to restore order in Honduras and ensure that free and fair elections could be held quickly and legitimately, which would render the question of Zelaya moot," unquote. That was from the hardcover version of Hillary Clinton’s memoir. That section was later removed from the paperback version. The significance of this, Professor Frank?

DANA FRANK: Well, I mean, it’s incredible this woman is a presidential candidate, that she’s doing like things like this, the fact that she would say we wanted to "render the question of Zelaya moot," we wanted to bury the democratically elected president’s existence and act like the coup didn’t happen. I mean, that’s why it’s so terrifying that today—or rather, on Saturday, she would say—she would defend this coup, say it wasn’t a coup, and defend her actions in installing this terrifically horrific, scary post-coup regime. And, of course, that she would cut that out of her memoir, in the paperback version, is also very scary.

AMY GOODMAN: Can you talk about the significance of Hillary Clinton’s stance then? And let’s remember, she was secretary of state serving the president—the president, of course, Barack Obama. What responsibility does the secretary of state have in this? And what did it mean for Honduras right up through today?

DANA FRANK: Well, Obama handed Latin America over to her and allowed her to carry forward this policy. I mean, it was certainly—Obama made some noises the very first day or two, and then, after that, was largely silent and handed over to Secretary of State Clinton. Clearly, he was her boss. If he didn’t approve of this, it wouldn’t have happened. And so, I think it’s really important when we talk about Hillary Clinton, the candidate, what she’s doing, to also talk about Obama’s responsibility for that and Obama’s responsibility for what’s happened since, because I think, as a lot of people know, that coup and the illegitimate election that followed it, that Hillary Clinton is celebrating so clearly in her statements, opened the door to this complete—almost complete destruction of the rule of law in Honduras. People hear about, oh, the gangs and violence and drug traffickers are taking over. Well, that’s because the post-coup governments, both of Micheletti, Lobo and now Juan Orlando Hernández, have completely destroyed the rule of law, because they’re in cahoots with these various forms of organized crime and drug traffickers and violence against the Honduran people. So, this whole post-coup regime has also led to this tremendous corruption of the judiciary and the police and the military, for that matter. So, that’s just—what’s happened to Honduras, it’s not just like there are randomly violent people down there. This is a U.S.-supported regime. The aftermath of the coup, if you look at all these statistics—yes, there was no—it’s not like there was a golden age before the coup, but this tremendous destruction of the basic rule of law in Honduras.

AMY GOODMAN: So, I want to go to what happened most recently in Honduras. Last month, gunmen assassinated Berta Cáceres, a well-known Honduran dissident, winner of the prestigious 2015 Goldman Environment Prize. They assassinated her in her home. In 2014, Berta Cáceres spoke about Hillary Clinton’s role in the 2009 coup with the Argentine TV program Resumen Latinoamericano.

BERTA CÁCERES: We’re coming out of a coup that we can’t put behind us. We can’t reverse it. It just kept going. And after, there was the issue of the elections. The same Hillary Clinton, in her book, Hard Choices, practically said what was going to happen in Honduras. This demonstrates the meddling of North Americans in our country. The return of the president, Mel Zelaya, became a secondary issue. There were going to be elections in Honduras. And here, she, Clinton, recognized that they didn’t permit Mel Zelaya’s return to the presidency. There were going to be elections. And the international community—officials, the government, the grand majority—accepted this, even though we warned this was going to be very dangerous and that it would permit a barbarity, not only in Honduras but in the rest of the continent. And we’ve been witnesses to this.

AMY GOODMAN: That was Honduran environmentalist, indigenous activist Berta Cáceres speaking in 2014, murdered last month in her home in La Esperanza, Honduras. Talk about what Berta Cáceres said and the significance of her assassination, this horror that took place in Honduras, what she—why she was so prominent and top of the target list in Honduras.

DANA FRANK: Well, Berta Cáceres was this amazing, inspiring indigenous leader and environmental activist. And also—

AMY GOODMAN: Did you know her?

DANA FRANK: Yes, I did. I didn’t know her very well personally. I had spent time with her in San Francisco and Oakland when she got the Goldman Prize last year. I remember first meeting her when she had gotten a phone call about the botched autopsy of the people that were killed by the DEA in Honduras. And, of course, her—we don’t even know the results of her own autopsy today, so the ironies of that are really chilling. I mean, she was so inspiring and so beautiful. If people google Berta Cáceres, you’ll see in every picture she’s glowing. You can just feel her presence. And it’s, of course, this tremendous heartbreak for all of us.

And I want to make sure people understand that this is the—this is the biggest assassination since the coup. There have been hundreds of people that have been assassinated, both by state security forces and by private actors and death squads, but they never touched the top leadership of the opposition. And Berta wasn’t just an indigenous environmental leader, she was a top leader of the opposition. In fact, when the resistance came to—came to the Lenca territories, she gave this beautiful speech welcoming everybody, that was one of the most beautiful speeches I’ve ever heard. And so, what’s going on now is the fact—and she was so internationally renowned. Speaker of the House—excuse me, ranking Democrat in the House of Representatives Nancy Pelosi gave a whole reception in her honor last year. And we did—everybody did everything they could to protect Berta, and she was still assassinated. And this is a clear message by the Honduran elite, by the Honduran government, by the Honduran right, that they’ll kill anybody now. And that’s—I want people to understand how terrifying that is, that everybody in Honduras now feels they can be killed, no matter how famous they are.

AMY GOODMAN: Well, on Sunday, Bill Clinton, the former president, spoke at the New York Hall of Science in Corona, Queens. He was interrupted by protesters who were shouting in Spanish, "Hillary Clinton, you have Berta’s blood on your hands!"

PROTESTER 1: Hillary Clinton supports mass deportation! Hillary Clinton supports mass deportation! Remember Berta Cáceres! Remember Berta Cáceres!

PROTESTER 2: Today we went to protest an event that was appealing to Latino communities to support Hillary Clinton at the Hall of Science in Corona, Queens. And we had a banner that said, "Hillary has blood on her hands." And we were removed by the police immediately.

AMY GOODMAN: Protesters chanting, "Hillary, we don’t forgive. Hillary, we don’t forget," when Bill Clinton spoke at the New York Hall of Science in Queens this weekend. Professor Frank?

DANA FRANK: Well, I mean, it’s so beautiful just to see the protests and to understand that there’s a tremendous critique of U.S. policy on Honduras, that’s been going on since the day of the coup, that doesn’t get covered at all in the press.

AMY GOODMAN: Why did the U.S. support the coup?

DANA FRANK: Ah, there’s a big question. I mean, I think it’s—I think it’s really about the U.S. pushback against the democratically elected governments of the left and the center-left that came to power in Latin America in the '90s and in the 2000s—Venezuela, Bolivia, Argentina, Ecuador, Chile, El Salvador, all these countries. And Zelaya was the weakest link in that chain. He, himself, did not come out of a big social movement base at the time of his election, certainly since the coup. And I think they were—the U.S. was looking for a way to push back against that. There's a very important military base, U.S. military base, Soto Cano Air Force Base, in Honduras. And Honduras has always been the most captive nation of the United States in Latin America. So, I think they were testing what they could get away with. And they got away with it. It was the first domino pushing back against democracy in Latin America and reasserting U.S. power, in service to a transnational corporate agenda.

AMY GOODMAN: Your final comment, Professor Frank, in this 2016 presidential election year and in looking at U.S. policy towards Latin America and Honduras?

DANA FRANK: Well, we certainly need to hold Hillary Clinton responsible and to say how terrifying and chilling it is that she would defend a military coup. Like, who is it that we’re talking about here? And the second thing is to also see that this isn’t just about Hillary Clinton. It’s about Obama, it’s about Vice President Biden, who’s in charge of Latin America policy now, and it’s about Secretary of State John Kerry. They are very clearly celebrating and supporting and giving increased funding to the current government of Juan Orlando Hernández, that is continuing this war against the Honduran people. I mean, he’s a dictator. He has overthrown parts of the Supreme Court and illegally named a new Supreme Court that’s full of allegedly corrupt figures. He has—he backed the coup. He illegally named a new attorney—led the illegal naming of a new attorney general. And he has admitted to stealing—we don’t know the exact amount—into the tens of millions of dollars from the national health service and siphoning off into his own campaign. I mean, this is a criminal that the United States is supporting in office.

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bentagain
Member since Mar 19th 2008
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Wed Apr-13-16 11:57 PM

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94. "Hillary Clinton's policy was a Latin American crime story"
In response to Reply # 93


  

          

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/gonzalez-clinton-policy-latin-american-crime-story-article-1.2598456

Hillary Clinton displayed a sweeping grasp of federal policy at the Daily News Editorial Board on Saturday.

Touting her plan to rebuild America’s infrastructure, Clinton said:

“Look, I’m excited about this stuff. I’m kind of a wonky person.”

But I kept thinking of the big gap between Clinton’s words and actions that her own emails reveal — especially toward Latin America.

When my turn came for a question, I asked about her role as secretary of state during the 2009 military coup in Honduras — a country from which so many children and mothers have fled to the U.S. of late to escape massive political and gang violence.

Before the coup, Honduras was at least making progress. Its democratically elected president, Manuel Zelaya, had instituted free public education for all, decreed a reduction in sky-high bank interest, and sharply raised the minimum wage.

But in June 2009, the military seized Zelaya in the middle of night, deposed him and sent him into exile. The United Nations, the Organization of American States and President Obama immediately called for Zelaya’s restoration.

“There is no doubt that the military, Supreme Court and National Congress conspired on June 28 in what constituted an illegal and unconstitutional coup against the Executive Branch,” our own ambassador there, Hugo Llorens, wrote in a cable that WikiLeaks later uncovered.

Anne-Marie Slaughter, then Clinton’s director of policy planning, even sent her boss an email on Aug. 16 urging her to “take bold action” and to “find that (the) coup was a ‘military coup’ under U.S. law.”

“Our assessment was, we will just make the situation worse by punishing the Honduran people if we declare a coup and we immediately have to stop all aid for the people,” Hillary Clinton said.
BILL PUGLIANO/GETTY IMAGES
“Our assessment was, we will just make the situation worse by punishing the Honduran people if we declare a coup and we immediately have to stop all aid for the people,” Hillary Clinton said.
Doing so would have forced an immediate cutoff of U.S. military aid.

“I got lots of signals last week that we are losing ground in Latin America every day the Honduras crisis continues,” Salughter wrote. “Even our friends are beginning to think we are not really committed to the norm of constitutional democracy.”

Clinton instead worked to sideline the OAS and pressed instead for a deal between the coup leaders and Zelaya for new elections.

Those elections ushered in a conservative government. More than 300 people have been killed by state security forces since then and we’ve witnessed a flood of refugees from Honduras.

A few weeks ago, gunmen assassinated Berta Caceres, a well-known Honduran dissident and winner of the prestigious 2015 Goldman environment prize, in her home.

I asked Clinton about the role she’d played in the Honduras tragedy.

“Our assessment was, we will just make the situation worse by punishing the Honduran people if we declare a coup and we immediately have to stop all aid for the people,” she said.

“We came out with a solution that did hold new elections, but it did not in any way address the structural, systemic problems in that society.”

But it’s not just Honduras. There’s also Colombia.

During the 2008 presidential race, both Clinton and Barack Obama vowed to block the Colombia Free Trade agreement President George W. Bush had negotiated.

They specifically condemned Colombia’s notorious history of repressing trade unionists.

But Clinton emails released this year show that in 2011, she quietly lobbied members of Congress to approve the Colombia pact.

In one email, she boasted of telling a key lawmaker from Michigan that “at the rate we were going, Colombian workers were going to end up (with) the same or better rights than workers in Wisconsin and Indiana and, maybe even Michigan.”

Last year, the AFL-CIO reported 2,000 incidents of violence and threats against Colombian trade union leaders — including 105 killings — during the trade agreement’s first four years.

Not exactly Michigan’s labor climate.

Hand it to Hillary, though. She sure is wonky.

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murph71
Member since Sep 15th 2005
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Thu Apr-14-16 07:09 AM

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96. "RE: Hillary Clinton's policy was a Latin American crime story"
In response to Reply # 94
Thu Apr-14-16 07:27 AM by murph71

          

The reason u don't see Bernie making TOO much hay out of this homie is 1) America unfortunately tends not to care about the suffering of Brown and black people across the globe...Fucked up......And 2) Going at Clinton about Honduras would mean going hard at the Obama administration. Lets keep it real...

It's much more easier to question Clinton over being one of the Hawkish voices in the room at the time the administration was debating on what to do about Libya....But the US having it both ways with the Honduras coup was not a Clinton special. Obama is her boss...His team decided to go that route...

So, Bernie is smart enough not to make it out an issue....He doesn't need to step on Obama's toes anymore than he already has....Bernie would rather go after Clinton on trade issues and Middle East foreign policy...

You won't get much traction on issues that don't have a direct effect on America's bottom line...Bernie standing up for those Verizon strikers yesterday is the smart (and valid) way to chip away at Clinton....

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

  

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Doomdata21
Member since Jul 21st 2002
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Thu Apr-14-16 07:23 AM

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97. "Great analysis..."
In response to Reply # 96


  

          

when will we learn? ::sigh::

**Sig**
-Blackthought is the dopest emcee alive
-Uncle Sam and Santa Clause are good buddies.
-Be selfless and the world will be a better place.

  

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bentagain
Member since Mar 19th 2008
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Thu Apr-14-16 10:04 AM

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99. "I couldn't tell if that reads, Bernie's fault or BHO's fault...?"
In response to Reply # 97


  

          

DEFLECT
DEFLECT

regardless, there have been valid issues to criticize this current administration

and foreign policy is at the top of that list, IMO

see Vex' recent post

and also the recent drone strike on a hospital in Afghanistan (I think it was Afghanistan, it's getting hard to keep count)

^^^to contrast Murph's reply, I don't think people are excited about a continution of these strategies which a HRC admininstration would guarantee, i.e. anything that states such could be spun to BHO criticism, and not only am I okay with that, I think it's necessary.

Had murph actually listened and/or read the interview

they do point out that Central America was basically handed over to the SOS

but yes, he is her boss.

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murph71
Member since Sep 15th 2005
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Thu Apr-14-16 11:17 AM

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100. "RE: I couldn't tell if that reads, Bernie's fault or BHO's fault...?"
In response to Reply # 99
Thu Apr-14-16 11:39 AM by murph71

          

No...it reads like common sense....

U r correct....Clinton's foreign policy is fair game.....But Bernie not stupid....

When u go inside the Honduras coup it doesn't help him one bit to attack Clinton...Because he would be opening up a whole can of worms...

The hardcore progressives who have no use for the Democrats (the same folks who think Obama is lightweight Conservative who let them down on a myriad of issues) def. want Bernie to make Honduras an issue....They could give too fucks about any blowback...lol

But once u tap on that vein, things get really dicey....Because Obama is all up in that mix since it was the Obama doctrine that made the decision (u know....that whole NO DRAMA OBAMA thing...)

Getting at Clinton for Libya is a bit more wiser at this point...Because it was viewed as going AGAINST Obama's no-drama doctrine...And Clinton was one of the Hawks in the room....That's a lay up...

Trust me....If u r pulling for Bernie u should be happy with his approach to going at Clinton. Attack her on the Middle East since there r some inside baseball stories that specifically have her in Obama's ear giving him that HAWK-ish advice....Get at her on the trade issues because she flip flopped like a mufucka on that...

Hell, like I said before, Bernie standing up with those Verizon workers was right AND politically brilliant....

But beating the Honduras drum is like walking on a minefield...Because that's more team Obama (Clinton included).....And Bernie doesn't want it with a popular sitting President who is at 53 percent approval at the moment....

Bernie is a smart man...Smarter than his surrogates....He doesn't need to go that route...

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

  

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bentagain
Member since Mar 19th 2008
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Thu Apr-14-16 01:13 PM

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105. "the world is bigger than Bernie Sanders"
In response to Reply # 100
Thu Apr-14-16 01:20 PM by bentagain

  

          

you try to devolve everything

I questioned why this wasn't brought up at the Univision debate

and/or hasn't been addressed 9 months into a primary, you know, by anybody, Bernie or otherwise

as I recall, Berta was assassinated days before that debate

and they actually threw a Honduras question in there IRT refugees I believe

not the whys, or US involvement/causation, etc...

I think that was HRC's 'deporting children sends a message' moment

WE can talk about it

and actually, IMO from what I understand, the Honduras coup is more damning of her directly...IMO

as was said, central america was basically left to the SOS's discretion

and there is evidence in her emails and biography of her involvement in that coup, and the subsequent disaster of the regime she placed in control

you know, AFTER having a democratically elected president removed from office

etc...

I agree IRT Libya, rinse wash and repeat

but IMO, that has alot more hands in the pot than Honduras

feels like this is all her.

you know, something like an assumption of what her presidency would look like based on her record to date

regime change and nation building (war on poor people) = HRC's foreign policy strategy



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murph71
Member since Sep 15th 2005
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Thu Apr-14-16 02:04 PM

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108. "RE: the world is bigger than Bernie Sanders"
In response to Reply # 105


          



Bernie is trying to become President....This ain't We Are The World...

Again...I find it amazing that a lot of Bernie's SUPREMELY Progressive supporters, who think the Dems r as bad as the Republicans and who had no interest in voting before Bernie turned them on, want the man to go full on NAPALM....

They want Bernie to bring up things that won't help him get the support he needs to go all the way....These r the same folks that say GO AT THAT LYING BITCH HILLARY FOR THOSE EMAILS!!!!!

Honduras is a blow up waiting to happen in Bernie's face....Emails too...Anything that either plays into the hands of the Republicans or is seen as a bold rebuke of President Obama's administration will not help Bernie one bit...

Now again, if u on that DEMOCRATS = REPUBLICANS mindset than it makes perfect since to attack Clinton on a lot of things I've seen Bernie heads bring up....The irony is, I wouldn't be surprised if Bernie even went that route...Because after all he's no fan of the Democrats anyway...

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

  

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bentagain
Member since Mar 19th 2008
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Thu Apr-14-16 06:33 PM

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140. "What's on the Bernie Sanders topics HRC can't talk about list?"
In response to Reply # 108
Thu Apr-14-16 06:37 PM by bentagain

  

          

seems to be a long laundry list of qualifiers about what is and what isn't fair game for Bernie to talk about

is anything out of bounds for HRC to talk about?

"Again...I find it amazing that a lot of Bernie's SUPREMELY Progressive supporters, who think the Dems r as bad as the Republicans and who had no interest in voting before Bernie turned them on, want the man to go full on NAPALM...."

you okay?

we're in a campaign for the POTUS, but talking about the causes of central american refugees is somehow going to implode the country?

wasn't that long ago, immigration was a hot button topic

but we should put our heads in the sand as to why people are fleeing their home countries?

"They want Bernie to bring up things that won't help him get the support he needs to go all the way....These r the same folks that say GO AT THAT LYING BITCH HILLARY FOR THOSE EMAILS!!!!!"

never said that

I said WE can talk about it

you keep deflecting to this captain save a hoe IRT anything that might put a dent in ol' girls day

"Honduras is a blow up waiting to happen in Bernie's face....Emails too...Anything that either plays into the hands of the Republicans or is seen as a bold rebuke of President Obama's administration will not help Bernie one bit..."

so Bernie can't talk about it

but the Rs are gonna talk about it anyway

where does that mean WE can't talk about it?

"Now again, if u on that DEMOCRATS = REPUBLICANS mindset than it makes perfect since to attack Clinton on a lot of things I've seen Bernie heads bring up....The irony is, I wouldn't be surprised if Bernie even went that route...Because after all he's no fan of the Democrats anyway..."

in summary

I don't think there is enough of a difference between democrats and republicans for me to automatically vote for a candidate just because they are a democrat

DEFLECT
DEFLECT

you always, ALWAYS, devolve into this Bernie Bros BS

if I said anything that you're referring to above

full napalm

he should pull the (insert topic that would collapse democracy as we know it) card

what I have noticed

as the tenor of the COVERAGE has changed tones

Bernie's message hasn't changed

his platform hasn't changed

he's been saying the same thing from day 1

but for some reason, HRC being the establishment candidate is somehow a smear 9 months later

c'mon

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Mansa Musa
Member since Feb 16th 2009
382 posts
Thu Apr-14-16 07:32 AM

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98. "Dana Frank: "She's baldly lying""
In response to Reply # 93
Thu Apr-14-16 07:44 AM by Mansa Musa

          

Dana Frank really eviscerated her in that interview with Amy Goodman. Hillary's answer to the New York Daily News was full of straight-up lies and evasions.

*She tries to have it both ways with "coup" versus "military coup" (as if the military kidnapping the president is not a military coup)
*She claims it was not unconstitutional, even though that is EXACTLY what the U.S. Embassy WAS SAYING AT THE TIME;
*She talks about the coup government's "free and fair elections," which the UN and the Carter Center refused to recognize, because they were clearly fraudulent;
*She blames all the current violence in Honduras on gangs and drug cartels, as if the very government she REFUSED to end military aid to wasn't murdering opposition leaders and activists across the country.

She is repeating lies as much as she was during the run-up to the Iraq War. As far as I'm concerned, nothing she says can be trusted.

  

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murph71
Member since Sep 15th 2005
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Thu Apr-14-16 11:20 AM

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101. "RE: Dana Frank: "She's baldly lying""
In response to Reply # 98


          



Yep...That Clinton is a lying WHORE.....


Dammit, let's just get this NY primary over with....Shit is getting ridiculous...

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

  

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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
67264 posts
Thu Apr-14-16 02:02 PM

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107. "why you always going with the whore/bitch route bruh? "
In response to Reply # 101


          

it's pretty childish.

I could see if dude was throwing out lies and misquotes but cmon..

it really makes you look bad when you do this.

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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murph71
Member since Sep 15th 2005
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Thu Apr-14-16 02:07 PM

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109. "RE: why you always going with the whore/bitch route bruh? "
In response to Reply # 107
Thu Apr-14-16 02:13 PM by murph71

          


Oh...u must not know what's been going on...

Here ya go playboy...

http://www.politico.com/blogs/2016-dem-primary-live-updates-and-results/2016/04/hillary-clinton-whore-remark-221931

Now to Bernie's credit he just apologized for his surrogate dropping that "corporate whore" bomb right before his speech as he was introducing the man....But my point is this shit has gotten out of hand...ALL of it...

Just get this election over with so we can go back to well adjusted life...

And on the real...it's best to look before u leap.....Ya dig?

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

  

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GOMEZ
Member since Feb 13th 2003
5189 posts
Thu Apr-14-16 02:17 PM

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110. "Corporate Whore hasn't ever really been gender specific"
In response to Reply # 109


  

          

it's a general term used for sellouts. It's not like if she were a man, she would have been called a corporate gigolo or something.

carry on, though.

https://www.instagram.com/sbmission365/

In a generation of swine, the one-eyed pig is king.
-Hunter S. Thompson

  

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murph71
Member since Sep 15th 2005
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Thu Apr-14-16 02:40 PM

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112. "RE: Corporate Whore hasn't ever really been gender specific"
In response to Reply # 110
Thu Apr-14-16 02:41 PM by murph71

          


Come on....the reaction of that audience was priceless....THEY knew....They were cheering it on....

It doesn't take the smartest person in the world to make that connection.... Bernie going on and on about Clinton being the pockets of Wall Street?

Again, Bernie didn't say it...But any Bernie surrogate using "whore" in any way when u r running against a woman who u accuse of being on the take is just at the very least politically stupid...

Bernie did the right AND smart thing by apologizing....So did the surrogate who has been on his knees all day....But this is what happens when u turn a campaign into a purity test....Both sides should just cool it....Get this shit over with without all the fuckery...

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

  

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GOMEZ
Member since Feb 13th 2003
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Thu Apr-14-16 02:52 PM

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114. "not a big deal. Bern squashed it. "
In response to Reply # 112


  

          

like i said, carry on though, and pretend like taking a word out of context, and making it something it's not, has anything to do with who's a better presidential candidate.



https://www.instagram.com/sbmission365/

In a generation of swine, the one-eyed pig is king.
-Hunter S. Thompson

  

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murph71
Member since Sep 15th 2005
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Thu Apr-14-16 03:02 PM

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117. "RE: not a big deal. Bern squashed it. "
In response to Reply # 114


          




I made that ^^^^ very point......

Still not a good look though...Like I said, I just want Clinton and Bernie to get this shit over with...It's all getting silly...

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

  

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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
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Thu Apr-14-16 02:43 PM

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113. "nah bruh.. you know damn well you have thrown that out 4 or 5 times now"
In response to Reply # 109


          

you used the lying bitch and whore shit 2 times in response to my criticism about Hillary.

It's childish and seems to be your go to when presented with info you can't spin.

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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murph71
Member since Sep 15th 2005
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Thu Apr-14-16 02:59 PM

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116. "RE: nah bruh.. you know damn well you have thrown that out 4 or 5 times ..."
In response to Reply # 113


          


First: My comment to 'ol girl was in connection to something else different all together....Had nothing to do with my past comments....I used caps with the word "WHORE" for a reason (in connection to that story)....I also said that it's getting ridiculous FROM ALL SIDES....

And yes....I've done what u r accusing me of doing a few times because I see a lot of MEN holding Clinton to standards I've never seen in my life...Even the homie Truth called her a bitch...I didn't have to make that up....

Again, it's okay to get at Clinton for being a shady politician...For being calculating....All that...My point is why does it seem like some dudes make it out like Clinton is different from all other politicians?....Like she has a cheat code on being evil?...lol

I know u r touchy with this subject given r past back and forths on the misogynistic behavior I've seen from men on this board....I'm not perfect...I'm dabbled in that shit too...

But let's not act cute here.....That comment had nothing to do with some of the hyperbolic shit I've seen on this board....

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

  

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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
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Thu Apr-14-16 03:14 PM

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121. "well truth has a tendency to call everyone out of their names"
In response to Reply # 116


          

he is an equal opportunity epitaph offender.

As far as Hillary getting criticism to u have never seen before in your life? Lmao
.. that's rich.

There was a guy named Obama who prolly had more thrown at him in a week than Hillary has this far.

Rev Wright, Weather Underground, Muslim, Jihadist, accusations of being gay, hates America, countless racial jokes and emails by elected officials, YOU LIE!!!

come on bruh, stop acting like Hillary is getting dragged. She is pretty much being treated with kid gloves this far given how much dirt Bernie could throw at her.

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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murph71
Member since Sep 15th 2005
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Thu Apr-14-16 03:23 PM

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125. "RE: well truth has a tendency to call everyone out of their names"
In response to Reply # 121
Thu Apr-14-16 03:24 PM by murph71

          


That dude has thrown out some grade A woman-hater's club shit....lol....It goes beyond words...It;s ideology...

And so has a lot of other dude's on this board...Me and u have gone at it on that very subject....(and again, the post in question in this thread was more of a general comment than a statement on misogyny...That was about something else...something very specific...)

But back to our discussion.....When I see bullshit I speak up on it...U notice I'm not going at Vex or other Bernie supporters...because they stick to the issues...They don't go down that slippery slope....

It is what it is....

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

  

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Mansa Musa
Member since Feb 16th 2009
382 posts
Thu Apr-14-16 02:55 PM

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115. "So now you're accusing Dana Frank of misogyny?"
In response to Reply # 101


          

You know I didn't use that word, and Sanders has condemned its use by his surrogates. Frank is an expert on Honduras and a professor of Women's Studies. Her pointing out the fact that Hillary is lying about this does not make her a misogynist.

Also, has Hillary condemned her surrogate David Brock for his past racist and sexist statements?

  

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murph71
Member since Sep 15th 2005
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Thu Apr-14-16 03:08 PM

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118. "RE: So now you're accusing Dana Frank of misogyny?"
In response to Reply # 115
Thu Apr-14-16 03:11 PM by murph71

          

No...

I'm talking about the hyperbolic bullshit that has infected this primary....U can run against someone and stand on the issues without surrogate or a supporter calling someone LIAR or a WHORE...

I'm beginning to think that Bernie really isn't the problem...I have no beef with him...I've had more issues with his surrogates than anything else...

The same way Gloria Steinem made those repulsive comments on behalf of Clinton, EVERYBODY needs to take a chill pill, relax and realize that the GOP ain't fucking around...

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

  

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Mansa Musa
Member since Feb 16th 2009
382 posts
Thu Apr-14-16 03:13 PM

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120. "A lie is a lie"
In response to Reply # 118


          

Pointing out facts doesn't constitute invective.

  

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murph71
Member since Sep 15th 2005
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Thu Apr-14-16 03:29 PM

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128. "RE: A lie is a lie"
In response to Reply # 120


          



Its cool....Bernie's supporters are going to do what they r going to do...It won't help him in the long run though...

I already know what's going to happen when Clinton wins NY...Gonna be a lot of IT WAS RIGGED....LYING HILL STOLE THE ELECTION...

It never ends...Hopefully the Hill-Bots keep it clean too...Because I've seen some wild shit coming from them too...Not on that Bernie Bro level, but still cringe-worthy...

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

  

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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
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Thu Apr-14-16 03:17 PM

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122. "how are you an expert on politics but act like it isnt a dirty game?"
In response to Reply # 118
Thu Apr-14-16 03:29 PM by legsdiamond

          

the surrogates ALWAYS say messy shit.

Why are you acting like this is new or uncharted territory?

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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murph71
Member since Sep 15th 2005
23113 posts
Thu Apr-14-16 03:32 PM

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129. "RE: how are you an expert on politics but act like it isnt a dirty game?"
In response to Reply # 122


          



I'm not an expert on politics....At all....

I just know it's not smart to have surrogates who elude to a female candidate as a corporate whore...Or make it out like Clinton is the first politician to lie in the history of campaigning....

They r not doing Bernie any favors....

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

  

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Mr. ManC
Member since Jan 26th 2009
11793 posts
Thu Apr-14-16 11:20 AM

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102. "yesterday was INSANE."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

50,000 plus in the parks and on the street.

people keep sleeping but a change is coming. Hoping we shock the country on the 19th, and looking forward to tonight's debate.

________________________________________________

SUPA NERD LLC.
Knowledge Meets Nature
Musica Negra
#13irteen

  

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murph71
Member since Sep 15th 2005
23113 posts
Thu Apr-14-16 11:36 AM

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104. "RE: yesterday was INSANE."
In response to Reply # 102


          

>50,000 plus in the parks and on the street.
>
>people keep sleeping but a change is coming. Hoping we shock
>the country on the 19th, and looking forward to tonight's
>debate.


Nah...nobody is sleeping....Bernie just exceeded Obama's 24,000 he got in 2008 in NYC by 3000 folks....Bernie is KILLING it....Crushing it....

The question that folks are asking is will that translate into actual votes....But nobody can discount what Bernie is pulling off in terms of excitement....He's really galvanizing young voters....It's impressive any way u wanna slice it...

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

  

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denny
Member since Apr 11th 2008
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Thu Apr-14-16 01:23 PM

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106. "Question...."
In response to Reply # 104


          

I would assume because of the NY registration rules that the polls will much be much more accurate than other states. Since they already have a cap on voter turnout at this point...there's less chance of a surprise victory. Is that fair?

It makes this march seem a little less relevant to me. It's not like someone can get inspired by it and decide to vote. Too late for them. The only votes that can be gained from it is actually convincing people to switch sides which is much less likely than convincing someone to get out and vote.

In other words...I don't think hillary has much to worry about here.

  

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PimpTrickGangstaClik
Member since Oct 06th 2005
14884 posts
Thu Apr-14-16 02:28 PM

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111. "Yeah NY is a closed primary, so she's good"
In response to Reply # 106


  

          

_______________________________________
You ain't the only one whose got problems. You ain't the only one who knows pain. Get up off your ass and just solve them. You still got a chance to try to change, try the shit again.
Devin tha Dude

  

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Mynoriti
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Thu Apr-14-16 03:25 PM

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126. "Publicly it feels like he's destroying her"
In response to Reply # 102


  

          

In Cali all you see are Bernie bumper stickers everywhere. I mean literally it's probably 100 bernie stickers to every 1 hillary sticker i've seen (I've only seen a few). The crowds coming out for him everywhere, the people I know, my facebook feed, pretty much all Bernie.

but it's hard to say if any of that will translate to votes even though it def "feels" like that's the case. People may not be talking about hillary, or remotely excited about her but it doesn't mean they won't go out and vote for her.

i think Nate Silver and them have her at something like a 97% chance of winning NY. They've been wrong before too, but *that* wrong? I don't know, man.

--------
http://ambitiondeficitdisorder.tumblr.com/

  

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PimpTrickGangstaClik
Member since Oct 06th 2005
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Thu Apr-14-16 05:33 PM

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134. "Yeah. It's weird seeing the disconnect between enthusiasm and votes"
In response to Reply # 126


  

          

In my state you'd see huge Sanders rallies leading up to the vote. T shirts, bumper stickers, and flags everywhere.
But Clinton won like 60-35

_______________________________________
You ain't the only one whose got problems. You ain't the only one who knows pain. Get up off your ass and just solve them. You still got a chance to try to change, try the shit again.
Devin tha Dude

  

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mrhood75
Member since Dec 06th 2004
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Thu Apr-14-16 05:39 PM

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137. "It's crazy, 'cause my wife said she's seeing Bernie signs out in the sti..."
In response to Reply # 126


  

          

In the past few weeks she's been driving out to places like Redding and Watsonville for work, going through areas that are usually considered hardcore red state country (especially out by Redding). I asked her how many "Make America Great Again!" signs she saw in front of farmhouses on the way, and she said very few, if any, but said there were a good amount of Sanders' signs.

However, as much as I'd like it, I still don't see Sanders winning in Cali.

-----------------

www.albumism.com

Checkin' Our Style, Return To Zero:

https://www.mixcloud.com/returntozero/

  

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bentagain
Member since Mar 19th 2008
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Thu Apr-14-16 06:40 PM

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141. "Pre debate coverage has Bern's number at 57% of the remaining delegates"
In response to Reply # 126


  

          

for the W

I'm wondering what that number is if he gets 70% of CA

Bern's had Cali poppin' since Aug

I think a YUGE number here is possible

if he can keep NY close

I think Cali is the hammer.

---------------------------------------------------------------

If you can't understand it without an explanation

you can't understand it with an explanation

  

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Mr. ManC
Member since Jan 26th 2009
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Thu Apr-14-16 03:20 PM

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124. "wait wait WAIT - Hillary stood with the Verizon workers yesterday?"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

GTEFOHWTBS!

Woooooooowwwww

That's yall girl.

________________________________________________

SUPA NERD LLC.
Knowledge Meets Nature
Musica Negra
#13irteen

  

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mrhood75
Member since Dec 06th 2004
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Thu Apr-14-16 05:34 PM

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135. "That's why the people got my back like the Verizon man (c) Jay Elec"
In response to Reply # 124


  

          

-----------------

www.albumism.com

Checkin' Our Style, Return To Zero:

https://www.mixcloud.com/returntozero/

  

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Vex_id
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Thu Apr-14-16 05:46 PM

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138. "c'mon, just because she took *tons* of $ from Verizon"
In response to Reply # 124


          

doesn't mean that she's compromised in any way.

She's just a *really* great speaker and Verizon just likes her.

...right?

-->

  

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Mr. ManC
Member since Jan 26th 2009
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Thu Apr-14-16 06:27 PM

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139. "man I don't get it at all"
In response to Reply # 138


  

          

Blame it on the age of aquarius but we gon be alright

________________________________________________

SUPA NERD LLC.
Knowledge Meets Nature
Musica Negra
#13irteen

  

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Mynoriti
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Thu Apr-14-16 07:52 PM

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143. "Yeah, but maybe she feels underpaid too"
In response to Reply # 138


  

          

--------
http://ambitiondeficitdisorder.tumblr.com/

  

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denny
Member since Apr 11th 2008
11281 posts
Thu Apr-14-16 08:07 PM

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144. "Hah!"
In response to Reply # 143


          

lol

  

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Jay Doz
Member since Dec 13th 2005
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Thu Apr-14-16 05:25 PM

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133. "DNC, Clinton and Sanders campaigns to sue Arizona over voting rights"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

with our powers combined...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/democratic-party-and-clinton-campaign-to-sue-arizona-over-voting-rights/2016/04/14/dadc4708-0188-11e6-b823-707c79ce3504_story.html

-------
"A man who is good enough to shed his blood for his country is good enough to be given a square deal afterwards. More than that no man is entitled, and less than that no man shall have." - TR

  

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mrhood75
Member since Dec 06th 2004
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Thu Apr-14-16 05:35 PM

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136. "This is a good start"
In response to Reply # 133


  

          

-----------------

www.albumism.com

Checkin' Our Style, Return To Zero:

https://www.mixcloud.com/returntozero/

  

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PimpTrickGangstaClik
Member since Oct 06th 2005
14884 posts
Thu Apr-14-16 08:08 PM

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145. "They're going for throats right off the bat in this NY debate"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Why are they yelling into their mics? lol

_______________________________________
You ain't the only one whose got problems. You ain't the only one who knows pain. Get up off your ass and just solve them. You still got a chance to try to change, try the shit again.
Devin tha Dude

  

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Reeq
Member since Mar 11th 2013
10706 posts
Thu Apr-14-16 08:50 PM

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146. "hillary is getting destroyed tonight."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

------

  

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_explain555
Member since Oct 15th 2009
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Thu Apr-14-16 09:04 PM

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147. "nah they bout even. but berns lookin like he bout to have a stroke yo LO..."
In response to Reply # 146


          


lookin like

http://whatscookingamerica.net/Q-A/MoldTomatoes.jpg

  

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rdhull
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Thu Apr-14-16 10:21 PM

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149. "lol"
In response to Reply # 147


  

          

>
>lookin like
>
>http://whatscookingamerica.net/Q-A/MoldTomatoes.jpg

  

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SeV
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Thu Apr-14-16 10:12 PM

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148. "Bern really called us Southern Black Democrats more conservative?"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Wauw


____________

Dallas Cavericks LETS GO!!

  

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Mr. ManC
Member since Jan 26th 2009
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Fri Apr-15-16 06:08 AM

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154. "what are your thoughts on gay marriage?"
In response to Reply # 148


  

          

Or gays in general?

Or anything LGTBQ?

oh right.

________________________________________________

SUPA NERD LLC.
Knowledge Meets Nature
Musica Negra
#13irteen

  

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murph71
Member since Sep 15th 2005
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Fri Apr-15-16 08:39 AM

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169. "RE: what are your thoughts on gay marriage?"
In response to Reply # 154


          

>Or gays in general?
>
>Or anything LGTBQ?
>
>oh right.


So let me get this straight...because black people r not full supporters of gay rights their votes should be dismissed because thy are coming out for Clinton?

Man...I give up....

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

  

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Mr. ManC
Member since Jan 26th 2009
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Fri Apr-15-16 09:30 AM

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176. "no, but it would suggest that they are more conservative."
In response to Reply # 169


  

          

The liberal agenda isn't embraced by Southern Blacks as a whole (speaking as a man from the South).

That is all that statement means. And Hillary KNOWS that. It is why she was against Gay marriage when running in 2008 because she knew she had to try to have an in with Southern Blacks who were going to flock to Obama.

It's not that crazy of a statement. And it is not to suggest that there are NO liberal Blacks in the South. It's just that he knew that would not be his favorable territory.

________________________________________________

SUPA NERD LLC.
Knowledge Meets Nature
Musica Negra
#13irteen

  

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murph71
Member since Sep 15th 2005
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Fri Apr-15-16 01:39 PM

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226. "RE: no, but it would suggest that they are more conservative."
In response to Reply # 176


          



I suggest Bernie needs to dead all that "The South doesn't count" bullshit....

U need Florida, NC, and Virginia in order to win the Presidency as a Democrat....

Or I'll let the homie Goldie Taylor tell it:

Goldie Taylor ‏@goldietaylor 5h5 hours ago

"Small tent Democrats... Never thought I'd see the day. Oh, wait. Yes, I did...."

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

  

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Mr. ManC
Member since Jan 26th 2009
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Fri Apr-15-16 07:53 PM

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256. "well to be fair most of my southern brethren"
In response to Reply # 226


  

          

Who are Hillary supporters are like "we are gonna vote for the Democrat no matter what" so he's not pushing people to the other side but stating that they didn't back him in the primaries.

I'm sure they would do the right thing push come to shove.

________________________________________________

SUPA NERD LLC.
Knowledge Meets Nature
Musica Negra
#13irteen

  

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murph71
Member since Sep 15th 2005
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Sat Apr-16-16 08:03 AM

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264. "RE: well to be fair most of my southern brethren"
In response to Reply # 256


          



I'm just going to say it's a dumb argument to even make...Why shit where u eat? My hope is Bernie will stop that nonsense...

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

  

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Mansa Musa
Member since Feb 16th 2009
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Fri Apr-15-16 06:38 AM

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157. "He was talking about whites too..."
In response to Reply # 148
Fri Apr-15-16 06:41 AM by Mansa Musa

          

...and he said the Deep South, not the South as a whole. He was saying those states as a whole are more conservative, not that Democrats in the Deep South are all closet Republicans. The point is that Clinton's lead includes a lot of states that will almost certainly go Republican in the general, like SC, MI, and AL.

  

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murph71
Member since Sep 15th 2005
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Fri Apr-15-16 08:34 AM

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167. "Nah...."
In response to Reply # 157


          



Bernie has to chill with that mess....Again, he's not doing himself any favors by dismissing the votes of half the country in some pretty big states....And there's the big elephant in the room...Most of the Democrats in the South voting in the primaries are largely blacks...We know Bernie ain't on no racist riff...But dude certainly has a blind spot when it comes to understanding the rest of the country....

Jamelle Bouie has been on Twitter breaking it down why Bernie is shooting himself in the foot....His twitter feed is must read.....Peep it....

Jamelle Bouie ‏@jbouie 8h8 hours ago

Man, the amount of straight disdain for the South in my mentions tonight was marvelous. Just really wonderful.

Jamelle Bouie
@jbouie10h

Clinton built her delegate lead on March 15, with wins in Ohio, Florida, Illinois, Missouri, and NC, none of which are the Deep South.

Jamelle Bouie Retweeted
Josh Marshall ‏@joshtpm 8h8 hours ago

Simply a fact: in Dem primaries, if u take out the 'conservative' South/Deep South, you take out most of the black people.

Jamelle Bouie Retweeted
Asinus Pervicax ‏@Cato_of_Utica 9h9 hours ago

If you want to fix shit in this country, look South, because that’s where the fight’s going to be won or lost in the long run.

Jamelle Bouie Retweeted
Harold Pollack ‏@haroldpollack 9h9 hours ago

Jamelle Bouie Retweeted
Vann R. Newkirk II ‏@fivefifths 9h9 hours ago

It's become clear that my "cause" this election is just making sure that PoC are heard in all their complexity and diversity of voice

Jamelle Bouie Retweeted
Joy Reid ‏@JoyAnnReid 10h10 hours ago

Southern Dem voters have got to be wondering what they did to get dismissed so summarily. No one says these things about Utahns.

Jamelle Bouie ‏@jbouie 9h9 hours ago
Georgia and North Carolina, more so than Texas and Arizona, are the places where Dems can build.

Jamelle Bouie Retweeted Mark Suzuki

Yes, all of the areas for Democratic Party growth are South of the Mason-Dixon.

Mark Suzuki @MarkSuzuki1

@jbouie the worst part about dismissing the south is that its where the future of the party is. VA NC GA FL all part of future EC majority

Jamelle Bouie ‏@jbouie 10h10 hours ago

The major metro areas of the South—Atlanta, Charlotte, Miami, Tampa, Nashville, Memphis, Louisville, etc.—are very diff than suburban South.

Jamelle Bouie Retweeted dare dukes

Right. If we're talking honestly about the South, significant regional variation even within states.

@jbouie Def. What bugs me most is talk (not from u) that demographics are monolithic across regions. Deep GA (me) has its own weirdness.

Jamelle Bouie ‏@jbouie 10h10 hours ago
Jamelle Bouie Retweeted Shazad Hamid

Because ideology isn't the only variable for judging a candidate vis a vis your interests.Jamelle Bouie added, Shazad Hamid @ShazadHamid

@jbouie I'm just curious, but if black voters are more liberal on the economy then why are they supporting Clinton?

Jamelle Bouie @jbouie

Because black Democrats are the most loyal Dem voters in the country and dismissing them peeves me. twitter.com/nekko377/statu…

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

  

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Mansa Musa
Member since Feb 16th 2009
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Fri Apr-15-16 09:55 AM

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179. "AL, MI, and SC have gone Republican in EVERY presidential race...."
In response to Reply # 167
Fri Apr-15-16 10:10 AM by Mansa Musa

          

...since 1980. Georgia has gone Republican in every presidential race since 1996.

Let's be real here. Saying that AL, MI and SC "tend to be more conservative" isn't controversial by any reasonable definition of that term. It is statistically very likely that Hillary will lose those states. It is also very likely that Sanders would lose some of the states he has won (like Wyoming). But the fact remains that while she kicked his ass in the red states, he has given her a run for her money in the blue states. Obviously, "red" and "blue" are not perfect categories, but we're talking about overwhelming odds here.

Obviously, Sanders campaigned in the South, and has supporters there (he had a big crowd at Morehouse), and respects southern voters. He is just stating reality when he points out that those states tend to be more conservative overall.

  

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Vex_id
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Fri Apr-15-16 07:43 AM

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162. "Yes. And there's a lot of truth to that."
In response to Reply # 148


          

The South is more conservative, period.

-->

  

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philpot
Member since Apr 01st 2007
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Fri Apr-15-16 08:09 AM

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164. "newsflash: most democrats in the south are white "
In response to Reply # 148


  

          

and Black voters are not necessarily representative of Black people

________________________________________________________________
whenever you did these things to the least of my brothers you did them to me

  

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murph71
Member since Sep 15th 2005
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Fri Apr-15-16 08:57 AM

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171. "RE: newsflash: most democrats in the south are white "
In response to Reply # 164


          

>and Black voters are not necessarily representative of Black
>people


I think u r muddling things....

The reason Clinton won the south was because of the overwhelming support she received from black voters...The numbers r there...U can Google 'em yourself...

So the problem is, by Bernie saying that the race is distorted because Clinton scored big wins in the South (which in itself is just wrong and not politically intelligent to say...) he's giving ammo to his critics who say he's dismissing the people who voted for Clinton...Mainly blacks who tipped those primaries her way....

Someone on his team needs to tell him to fall back on this.....Like, right now...

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

  

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philpot
Member since Apr 01st 2007
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Fri Apr-15-16 06:15 PM

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248. "i don't think Bernie's scared of yalls smear tactics though "
In response to Reply # 171
Fri Apr-15-16 06:18 PM by philpot

  

          

And I think this is because he actually respects citizens & their intelligence enough that he knows we can see through the smears and the lies

Meanwhile yalls woman has no problem talking down to us, insulting our intelligence & using fear in a sad attempt to manipulate us

And that's all I'll say, we could get deeper into who these Black southerners are that love Hillary so much (as a Virginian I've interacted with a grip of them) but I'm not gonna let y'all take basic facts & use them to brand me as something I'm not

Y'all learned me when I criticized PBO...no matter how substantial the criticism was I got tagged as racist for daring to criticize the man

Also, AGAIN things I pointed out (the nature of white southern democrats--how representative Black southern voters are of Black southern people) will be ignored

________________________________________________________________
whenever you did these things to the least of my brothers you did them to me

  

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Jay Doz
Member since Dec 13th 2005
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Sat Apr-16-16 03:24 PM

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290. " you a damn lie"
In response to Reply # 164


  

          

RE: newsflash: most democrats in the south are white

that's not even remotely true

http://www.cnn.com/election/primaries/polls/ga/Dem
62% non-white

http://www.cnn.com/election/primaries/polls/ms/Dem
76% non-white

http://www.cnn.com/election/primaries/polls/al/Dem
60% black

http://www.cnn.com/election/primaries/polls/ms/Dem
76% non-white

http://www.cnn.com/election/primaries/polls/sc/Dem
65% non-white

-------
"A man who is good enough to shed his blood for his country is good enough to be given a square deal afterwards. More than that no man is entitled, and less than that no man shall have." - TR

  

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philpot
Member since Apr 01st 2007
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298. "I stand corrected "
In response to Reply # 290
Sat Apr-16-16 07:28 PM by philpot

  

          

Hillary smart to have them preachers in her pocket tho

________________________________________________________________
whenever you did these things to the least of my brothers you did them to me

  

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ambient1
Member since May 23rd 2007
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Fri Apr-15-16 10:42 AM

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185. "uhhh lol.....that's not even a secret f'reals"
In response to Reply # 148


  

          

=======================================
Coolin...

  

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Mynoriti
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Fri Apr-15-16 12:22 PM

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210. "Meh.. i think that's more the way it's being spun"
In response to Reply # 148
Fri Apr-15-16 12:43 PM by Mynoriti

  

          

He's pointing out she's doing good in states that dems wont win anyway, and people are spinning it that he's talking about southern blacks.

I don't really think it's a good look for him though, because it does look like he's blowing off southern dems and not mattering. but also, i thought swing states like Ohio, and Florida deaded that argument. I'm not sure why he's still making it.

--------
http://ambitiondeficitdisorder.tumblr.com/

  

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Mansa Musa
Member since Feb 16th 2009
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Thu Apr-14-16 11:13 PM

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150. "Clinton looked angry at the crowd"
In response to Reply # 0
Thu Apr-14-16 11:37 PM by Mansa Musa

          

Especially when they were chanting Bernie...Bernie...Bernie.

He clearly exposed her double-talk on the minimum wage, Social Security, and fracking. She looked as right-wing as Dick Cheney on Israel-Palestine.

Sanders could have been more detailed in some of his answers. But Hillary's NY Daily News interview was full of straight-up lies, not just vagueness, like his was. If anybody thinks she is telling the truth when she says she "stood up" to Wall Street, I don't know what to say.

Also, her claims about the Commodity Futures Modernization Act are utterly deceptive. One of the authors of the swaps deregulation component of the act, Gary Gensler, is an advisor to the Clinton campaign (and Bill's former Undersecretary of the Treasury, after he left Goldman Sachs). Sanders only voted for this--arguably his only "pro-Wall Street vote" in his entire career--because it was tucked into an omnibus spending bill, and doing so was necessary to prevent a government shutdown by Congressional Republicans.

Moreover, Wall Street lobbyists essentially snuck these provisions into the bill. As Robert Scheer points out:

"Sanders soon figured out that he and almost all other Congress members had been tricked into providing a blank check for the marketing of bogus collateralized debt obligations and credit default swaps made legal by the legislation, of which a key author was Gary Gensler, the former Goldman Sachs partner recruited by Clinton to be undersecretary of the treasury."

http://www.commondreams.org/views/2016/01/19/hillary-blames-bernie-old-clintonite-hustle-and-thats-rotten-shame

Yet, while Ensler works for her campaign, Clinton professes to criticize him for supporting the provisions Ensler helped write (to prevent a government shutdown).

Anyway, I doubt the debate will change more than a few people's minds, but it will be hard for anyone to spin this as a Clinton win.

  

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_explain555
Member since Oct 15th 2009
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Fri Apr-15-16 02:16 AM

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151. "LOL yooo yall so damn pressed i swear"
In response to Reply # 150


          


>
>people's minds, but it will be hard for anyone to spin this as
>a Clinton win.


cnn, wapo n em already gave it to clinton

twitter said she had more support tweets then berns

she still ahead in da polls too


i mean do yall not pay attention to these things? wtf

take a step away from bern's nuts once in awhile n look around, sheesh

yall a loud ass minority n nothin more lol



  

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denny
Member since Apr 11th 2008
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Fri Apr-15-16 02:31 AM

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152. "Hillary on Israel/Palestine should be a shame on any democrat."
In response to Reply # 151


          

And to think we've been arguing about the definition of the word 'progressive'.

  

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Mansa Musa
Member since Feb 16th 2009
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Fri Apr-15-16 09:37 AM

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177. "Seriously. She is more right-wing than Trump on this."
In response to Reply # 152


          

And that is obviously not a defense of Trump. But she's staking out his right flank here.

  

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bentagain
Member since Mar 19th 2008
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Fri Apr-15-16 05:44 AM

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153. "FightFor15, Raising the SS cap, Transcripts = bad looks for HRC"
In response to Reply # 151


  

          

---------------------------------------------------------------

If you can't understand it without an explanation

you can't understand it with an explanation

  

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Mansa Musa
Member since Feb 16th 2009
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Fri Apr-15-16 06:27 AM

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155. "Time Warner owns CNN and has contributed to her campaign"
In response to Reply # 151


          

Big surprise that they have called EVERY debate for Clinton. And WaPo has been anti-Sanders since the campaign started. Picking those two outlets as the final arbiters of who won is cute, though.

How did you like her right-wing bullshit on Israel/Palestine?

  

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murph71
Member since Sep 15th 2005
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Fri Apr-15-16 08:07 AM

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163. "RE: Time Warner owns CNN and has contributed to her campaign"
In response to Reply # 155


          



Yep...I'm calling it....

The plea cops are are just waiting to be dropped....lol

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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Fri Apr-15-16 06:32 AM

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156. "Longest I watched any debate last night. I am astounded smart"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

people are impressed by Bernie Sanders.

Let me give folks an example. Here was one of the exchanges:


BLITZER: Secretary, let’s talk about Social Security, another critically important issue. Senator Sanders has challenged you to give a clear answer when it comes to extending the life of Social Security and expanding benefits. Are you prepared to lift the cap on taxable income, which currently stands at $118,500? Yes or no, would you lift the cap?

CLINTON: I have said repeatedly, Wolf, I am going to make the wealthy pay into Social Security to extend the Social Security Trust Fund. That is one way. If that is the way that we pursue, I will follow that.

CLINTON: But there are other ways. We should be looking at taxing passive income by wealthy people. We should be looking at taxing all of their investment.

But here’s the real issue, because I — I’ve heard this, I’ve seen the reports of it. I have said from the very beginning, we are going to protect Social Security. I was one of the leaders in the fight against Bush when he was trying to privatize Social Security.

But we also, in addition to extending the Trust Fund, which I am absolutely determined to do, we’ve got to help people who are not being taken care of now. And because Social Security started in the 1930s, a lot of women have been left out and left behind.

And it’s time that we provide more benefits for widows, divorcees, for caregivers, for women who deserve more from the Social Security...

BLITZER: Thank you, Secretary.

CLINTON: — system and that will be my highest priority.

BLITZER: Senator?

Go ahead, Senator.

(APPLAUSE)

SANDERS: An interesting comment, but you didn’t answer the question.

CLINTON: I did. If that’s the way we’re...

SANDERS: No, you didn’t. My legi...

CLINTON: — yes, I did.

SANDERS: Can I answer...

CLINTON: I did answer the...

SANDERS: — may I please...

CLINTON: Well, don’t — don’t put words...

SANDERS: — can I have... (CROSSTALK)

CLINTON: — into my mouth and say something...

SANDERS: — do I not?

CLINTON: — that’s not accurate.

BLITZER: Go ahead, Senator.

SANDERS: All right. Essentially what you described is my legislation, which includes (INAUDIBLE)...

(APPLAUSE)

SANDERS: Now, we’ve got — here is the issue. Your answer has been the same year after year. In fact, the idea that I’m bringing forth, I have to admit it, you know, it wasn’t my idea. It was Barack Obama’s idea in 2008, the exact same idea.

(APPLAUSE)

SANDERS: He called for lifting the cap, which is now higher — it’s at 118 — and starting at 250 and going on up. If you do that, you’re going to extend the life of Social Security for 58 years. You will significantly expand benefits by 1,300 bucks a year for seniors and disabled vets under $16,000 a year.

What’s wrong with that?

Are you prepared to support it?

CLINTON: I have supported it. You know, we are in vigorous agreement here, Senator.

SANDERS: You have sup...

CLINTON: I think it’s important...

(APPLAUSE)

CLINTON: — to point out that...

(APPLAUSE)

CLINTON: — you know, we’re — we’re having a discussion about the best way to raise money from wealthy people to extend the Social Security Trust Fund. Think about what the other side wants to do. They’re calling Social Security a Ponzi scheme. They still want to privatize it.

In fact, their whole idea is to turn over the Social Security Trust Fund to Wall Street, something you and I would never let happen.

SANDERS: All right, so...

CLINTON: So, yes, we both want to make sure...

(APPLAUSE)

SANDERS: Look, Wolf...

CLINTON: — Social Security (INAUDIBLE)...

SANDERS: — I am very glad that...

(CROSSTALK)

CLINTON: — and well-funded...

SANDERS: I am very glad to...

(CROSSTALK)

BLITZER: Thank you, Secretary.

(CROSSTALK)

BLITZER: Senator, go ahead.

SANDERS: — campaign of challenging, if I hear you correctly, Madam Secretary, you are now coming out finally in favor of lifting the cap on taxable income...

(APPLAUSE)

SANDERS: — and extending and expanding Social Security. If that is the case, welcome on board. I’m glad you’re here.

(APPLAUSE)

CLINTON: No.

BLITZER: Thank you.

Errol — Errol Louis, go ahead.

(APPLAUSE)

CLINTON: We are going...

(APPLAUSE)

CLINTON: — we are...

(APPLAUSE)

CLINTON: — we are going...

LOUIS: Secretary...

CLINTON: I — as he said, I’ve said the same thing for years. I didn’t say anything different tonight. We are going to extend the Social Security Trust Fund. There is still something called Congress. Now, I happen to support Democrats and I want to get Democrats to take back the majority in the United States Senate...

BLITZER: Errol...

CLINTON: — so a lot of — a lot of what we’re talking about can actually be implemented...

BLITZER: Errol, hold on a second.

CLINTON: — when I am president.

LOUIS: Secretary...

BLITZER: Go ahead.

Hold on, Errol...

SANDERS: — I’m still...

BLITZER: — Errol. Hold on.

SANDERS: I’ve got to admit...

BLITZER: Go ahead, Senator.

SANDERS: — maybe I’m a little bit confused.

Are you or are you not supporting legislation to lift the cap on taxable income and expand Social Security for 58 years and increase benefits...

CLINTON: I am...

SANDERS: — yes or no?

CLINTON: I have said yes, we are going to pick the best way or combination...

SANDERS: Oh, you — ah.

(APPLAUSE)

(BOOS)

SANDERS: OK.

CLINTON: — or combination of ways...

(BOOS)

CLINTON: — you know...

(BOOS)










Now look at that exchange. Bernie swear he had a gotcha moment. It seems the Bernie crowd did too by booing Hillary at the end.


But y'all telling me yall don't understand the point that Hillary is making? She says we could raise the funds for Social Security that way, but there are others ways to do it, the important point is, wealthy people are the ones who are going to pay for it.

Is that really too complicated that Bernie and his people needed an even simpler answer? To demand a yes or no answer on that is silly. She absolutely answered the question and it was absolutely consistent.

BTW, Bernie too old to be up on stage talking about "I am confused" because I swear I was wondering was he really confused or was that just rhetorical flare.




ANyway, I've watch Hillary a few times lately and I think one of her bigger problems is that she speaks like a lawyer.

For example, she got crucified for not promising that she will never lie to the public.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2016/02/18/hillary_clinton_wont_flatly_deny_she_will_never_lie_to_the_public.html



I felt that was kind of bullshit because she infact gave a much more honest answer. Or maybe better put, a much more accurate answer.

It would have been super easy to just say yes I will never lie to the public and I think a typical politician would know to say that but if you ask me that's the dishonest answer and slick answer.


Anyway, Hillary is not a great communicator, maybe she needs to dumb it down when talking to Bernie's folks. IDK.









>Guess we've reached the usual 300-post trigger for a new
>politics thread.
>
>New York coming up on the 19th. 95 delegates on the Rep side,
>291 for the Dems (the Dems have a higher overall number of
>delegates, so they usually have bigger numbers).
>FiveThirtyEight's polling average currently has it Clinton 57,
>Sanders 40, but we've seen these margins thin and even flip.
>It'll probably be an ugly week. Must win for Sanders, I think
>they've even promised it. To start turning the pledged
>delegate race, he needs to win it big. On the other hand, it
>would be embarrassing for the Clinton campaign if they lost
>it, even by a small margin, so the media would go wild. We'll
>see how it goes. Debate this Thursday (April 14).
>
>On the R side, Trump has a huge lead. He's flirting with 50%
>from what I hear, which might make it possible for him to
>sweep the delegates, which in turn might make it possible for
>him to end up with a delegate majority before the convention.
>Considering how the talk about convention procedures is going,
>that might be his only chance. The other news is that John
>Kasich is beating Cruz in NY. A strong second place (and a
>weaker Trump showing) might help his delegate count, making it
>more plausible that the convention would land on him as a
>consensus candidate. (Paul Ryan is clearly
>lobbying-by-not-lobbying-but-making-campaign-ads-anyway for
>that spot as well).
>
>The rest of the major races (not sure how many of these we'll
>get through before needing a new thread):
>
>April 26:
>Maryland -- 38 R delegates, winner-take-most; 118 D
>(proportional, as always)
>Pennsylvania -- 71 R WTM; 210 D
>Connecticut -- 28 R (proportional); 70 D
>Delaware -- 16 R winner-take-all; 31 D
>
>May 3:
>Indiana -- 57 R WTM; 92 D
>
>May 10:
>Nebraska -- 36 R winner-take-all; (Dem caucus already held)
>West Virginia -- 34 R (proportional); 37 D
>
>May 17:
>Kentucky -- (Rep caucus already held); 61 D
>Oregon -- 28 R; 74 Bernie Bros with gluten-free trail mix
>
>June 7:
>California -- 172 R WTM; FIVE HUNDRED AND FORTY SIX D
>Other states -- who the hell cares...
>


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

  

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Mansa Musa
Member since Feb 16th 2009
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Fri Apr-15-16 06:59 AM

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158. "I am astounded Hillary supporters..."
In response to Reply # 156
Fri Apr-15-16 06:59 AM by Mansa Musa

          

...will let her have it both ways on so many issues. Her positions seem to evolve on a weekly basis.

  

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Doomdata21
Member since Jul 21st 2002
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Fri Apr-15-16 07:06 AM

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159. "Compare and contrast"
In response to Reply # 156


  

          

Reading that transcript was a chore so I went to their respective websites:

https://www.hillaryclinton.com/issues/social-security-and-medicare/

https://berniesanders.com/issues/strengthen-and-expand-social-security/


I think Sanders' platform is more comprehensive with fewer examples of empty rhetoric like "FIGHT to expand social security", "ask the wealthy to contribute MORE" that Clinton uses on her website. Bernie is breaking it down into more concrete terms like:

"Sen. Sanders has introduced legislation to end this absurdity, by lifting this cap so that everyone who makes over $250,000 a year pays the same percentage of their income into Social Security as the middle class and working families.

This would not only extend the solvency of Social Security for the next 50 years, but also bring in enough revenue to expand benefits by an average of $65 a month; increase cost-of-living-adjustments; and lift more seniors out of poverty by increasing the minimum benefits paid to low-income seniors."


He even ads a nifty little video:
https://youtu.be/FAcv7g3O_iM

I didn't watch the debate but from what I've seen of it this morning I still lean on Bernie's side.

**Sig**
-Blackthought is the dopest emcee alive
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-Be selfless and the world will be a better place.

  

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Mansa Musa
Member since Feb 16th 2009
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Fri Apr-15-16 07:42 AM

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161. "She doesn't warn about a "trillion dollar tax hike" anymore"
In response to Reply # 159


          

She had to walk that one back.

She wants those retiree/soon-to-retire votes, but she also wants those upper-income professional votes. She is trying to assuage working- and middle-class fears about Social Security while taking upper-middle-class tax increases off the table. But sometimes she implies they are on the table. Her position, as with minimum wage, trade agreements, and many others, seems to evolve continuously.

  

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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
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Fri Apr-15-16 07:16 AM

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160. "http://i.imgur.com/dCGKCqa.gif"
In response to Reply # 156


          

http://i.imgur.com/dCGKCqa.gif

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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bentagain
Member since Mar 19th 2008
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Fri Apr-15-16 08:37 AM

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168. "LOL, the reason for that exchange at all is her failure to answer Y/N"
In response to Reply # 156
Fri Apr-15-16 08:38 AM by bentagain

  

          

she was asked a handful of Y/N or questions

DEFLECT
DEFLECT

here's the list of non-committals/deflections from HRC last night as I remember
transcipts
SS cap
fight415
disproportionate IRT Israel
illegal guns from Vermont

I'm sure there's more, but that's all I can remember at the moment


---------------------------------------------------------------

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you can't understand it with an explanation

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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Fri Apr-15-16 09:03 AM

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172. "That's the dumbing down I find so appalling. "
In response to Reply # 168


  

          

Are voters really not capable of more than monosyllabic explanations of platform.

You can't clearly see how she unequivocally answered the question in her answer?




**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

  

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legsdiamond
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Fri Apr-15-16 09:07 AM

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174. "well it's a way to show she can't simply answer yes"
In response to Reply # 172


          

because she has to make sure she keeps an escape hatch available.

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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Mansa Musa
Member since Feb 16th 2009
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Fri Apr-15-16 09:25 AM

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175. "She flip-flopped live on camera"
In response to Reply # 172
Fri Apr-15-16 09:31 AM by Mansa Musa

          

In 2007, she opposed raising the cap. The WaPo describes her conversation with an Iowa voter at the time as follows:

"She told him she didn't want to put an additional tax burden on the middle class but would consider a 'gap,' with no Social Security taxes on income from $97,500 to around $200,000. Anything above that could be taxed."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/10/11/AR2007101101292.html

She criticized Obama in 2008 for proposing raising the cap, accusing him of supporting "a trillion-dollar tax increase on America's working families":

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/topstories/2008-01-16-1797040513_x.htm

Then, last October, she said:

"And I want to look at raising the cap. I think that’s something we should look at how we do it, because I don’t want it to be an extra burden on middle-class families and in some parts of the country, there’s a different level of income that defines middle class."

http://www.alternet.org/news-amp-politics/say-it-aint-so-hillary-clinton-youre-open-idea-raising-retirement-age

This February, she said:

“Obviously, lifting the cap at some point or another is a very live possibility,” she said during a Des Moines Register editorial board meeting last month."

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/elections/2016/02/09/hillary-clinton-bernie-sanders-differ-details-social-security-plans/80078816/

But now she won't commit to it. As the New York Times points out:

"Her loud praise of Social Security doesn’t change the fact that she won’t commit to raising the cap on the amount of earnings subject to Social Security payroll tax beyond the current $118,500."

http://takingnote.blogs.nytimes.com/2016/04/15/clinton-and-sanders-show-their-exhaustion/?_r=0

Again, she stakes out positions on all sides of an issue. The question becomes, are we talking about the October 2007 Hillary, the January 2008 Hillary, the August 2015 Hillary, the February 2016 Hillary, or the April 2016 Hillary?

This is the pattern with her, on issue after issue. There's no way to know where she stands on anything, because her position could change next week.

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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Fri Apr-15-16 11:20 AM

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195. "She didn't flip-flop though. Not on TV and not in these statements"
In response to Reply # 175


  

          

Her position is pretty simple, I am open to raising the limit but she didn't want to burden middle-class folks between the 100k - 200k range. There are several ways to keep social security solvent and she will fix it and it will be paid for by the wealthiest Americans.

Her statements below are consistent with that position.


Again I don't think Hillary is a great communicator because the nuances of her statements (folks making between 100k - 200k shouldn't be treated like the truly wealthy) get lost on folks.

Maybe her point was too wonky for the folks to get, but those statements are not at all inconsistent.



>In 2007, she opposed raising the cap. The WaPo describes her
>conversation with an Iowa voter at the time as follows:
>
>"She told him she didn't want to put an additional tax burden
>on the middle class but would consider a 'gap,' with no Social
>Security taxes on income from $97,500 to around $200,000.
>Anything above that could be taxed."
>
>http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/10/11/AR2007101101292.html
>
>She criticized Obama in 2008 for proposing raising the cap,
>accusing him of supporting "a trillion-dollar tax increase on
>America's working families":
>
>http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/topstories/2008-01-16-1797040513_x.htm
>
>Then, last October, she said:
>
>"And I want to look at raising the cap. I think that’s
>something we should look at how we do it, because I don’t
>want it to be an extra burden on middle-class families and in
>some parts of the country, there’s a different level of
>income that defines middle class."
>
>http://www.alternet.org/news-amp-politics/say-it-aint-so-hillary-clinton-youre-open-idea-raising-retirement-age
>
>This February, she said:
>
>“Obviously, lifting the cap at some point or another is a
>very live possibility,” she said during a Des Moines
>Register editorial board meeting last month."
>
>http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/elections/2016/02/09/hillary-clinton-bernie-sanders-differ-details-social-security-plans/80078816/
>
>But now she won't commit to it. As the New York Times points
>out:
>
>"Her loud praise of Social Security doesn’t change the fact
>that she won’t commit to raising the cap on the amount of
>earnings subject to Social Security payroll tax beyond the
>current $118,500."
>
>http://takingnote.blogs.nytimes.com/2016/04/15/clinton-and-sanders-show-their-exhaustion/?_r=0
>
>Again, she stakes out positions on all sides of an issue. The
>question becomes, are we talking about the October 2007
>Hillary, the January 2008 Hillary, the August 2015 Hillary,
>the February 2016 Hillary, or the April 2016 Hillary?
>
>This is the pattern with her, on issue after issue. There's no
>way to know where she stands on anything, because her position
>could change next week.


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

  

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Mansa Musa
Member since Feb 16th 2009
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Fri Apr-15-16 02:20 PM

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234. "First she says no, then yes, now *static*"
In response to Reply # 195


          

  

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bentagain
Member since Mar 19th 2008
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Fri Apr-15-16 10:37 AM

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184. "I think voters want a definitive answer before they vote for her TBH"
In response to Reply # 172


  

          

She was given time to run off her scripted answer

the follow ups were for clarification

and as soon as she didn't commit Y/N

the crowd started booing

yes, in that case, after being afforded the time for her prepared scripted dialogue

I think it's fair to expect a concrete answer, Y/N

---------------------------------------------------------------

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you can't understand it with an explanation

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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Fri Apr-15-16 11:54 AM

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204. "Requiring a yes or no answer is a silly gotcha question "
In response to Reply # 184


  

          

and I would think a sophisticated voter should be able to see the difference.


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

  

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bentagain
Member since Mar 19th 2008
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Fri Apr-15-16 12:14 PM

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207. "RE: Yes or no, would you lift the cap?"
In response to Reply # 204


  

          

CLINTON: I have said repeatedly, Wolf, I am going to make the wealthy pay into Social Security to extend the Social Security Trust Fund

not only did she not answer yes or no

she didn't actually say she would make them pay more

and everything after that is a deflection

i.e. ponzi scheme, a combination of ways, etc...

and like I said, it's not just SS that you can't hold her to a definitive answer

she spins and deflects to a point, where yes, I don't hear an actual answer

there are moments in the debate, where I have to remind myself what the actual question was to begin with

take the fightfor15

she answers in an affirmative tone, without saying yes, $15 federal minimum wage

her answer was something like, yes, for NYC, LA and SEA, as I recall

$12/hr =/= $15

it's a silly argument to pretend she's not leaving herself room to do some other $hit

and then come back, if she becomes POTUS

but I didn't say that, I said (see other $hit)

hey, if those answers are good for you, vote for her.



---------------------------------------------------------------

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you can't understand it with an explanation

  

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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
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Fri Apr-15-16 12:33 PM

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212. "lmao @ sophisticated voter. This is America Bruh"
In response to Reply # 204


          

where a swiftboat ad, drinking a beer with the coolest guy or a photo in a tank can determine who wins an election.

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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rob
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Fri Apr-15-16 06:46 PM

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254. "the problem with "it depends" hillary is when she makes actual choices"
In response to Reply # 156


  

          

because as much as context matters and as much as there are lots of ways to approach problems...

she does have a record of voting for the politically expedient choice instead of the right choice.

if she didn't have that record, we could take her on face value with that shit.

like we all get "it depends." our current president is a master of "it depends." but he's still made strong, principled decisions and stuck by them.

  

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murph71
Member since Sep 15th 2005
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Fri Apr-15-16 08:18 AM

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165. "That was a knife fight last night...lol"
In response to Reply # 0
Fri Apr-15-16 08:19 AM by murph71

          


Both Hilldawg and Bernie were coming for blood....

Two things stood out:

1) Clinton has to fall back on the goal post moving when she;s asked about those transcripts Yes...We know, Hillary...This is the first time ever in a campaign that a candidate has been taken to task by her opponent for not releasing speech transcripts....We get it. But stop crying...Release one of the damn speeches so we can end all this jibber jabbering.....

2) Bernie laughing when they were having that gun discussion was not a good look and will be utilized in a campaign ad is soon as tomorrow...It's all about perception...And right now Bernie comes off as above it all during the discussion about guns....

Other than that, it was a wash....Bernie needed that knock out blow....Didn't get it....
Kind of like when two heavy weight fighters are in the 12th round....And one is leading by points (Clinton) and the other is landing some heavy blows in spurts (Bernie) but can't seem to finish the job....



GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

  

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Mr. ManC
Member since Jan 26th 2009
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Fri Apr-15-16 09:48 AM

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178. "agree 99%"
In response to Reply # 165


  

          

last night at most felt like a draw. Hillary came across as more "Presidential" with her prompted responses that didn't really give any definitive statements. Bernie kind of blundered through his landable punches and grazed her a few times, but not really a KO anywhere....perhaps had her on the ropes, but the format didn't allow for him to go in.

To me, the guns moment were bad optics, but he is clearly right on the subject. I don't think it will play well to the casual/superficial person watching. HOWEVER the biggest missed opportunity for me was when they asked of ONE time Clinton has switched her position based on contributions. There are SO MANY to point to, and yet he fumbled that opportunity. Even in the Wall Street bail out, the most obvious one, he didn't land that punch.

All in all though I almost SLIGHTLY want to give the edge to Bernie last night, like literally 51-49. Only because I think she had moments where she looked weak, but a tie between the two of them at worst legitimizes him candidacy. It definitely wasn't the homerun/KO he could have used, but we will see how it shakes out.

________________________________________________

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#13irteen

  

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murph71
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Fri Apr-15-16 10:51 AM

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187. "RE: agree 99%"
In response to Reply # 178


          


>HOWEVER the biggest missed
>opportunity for me was when they asked of ONE time Clinton has
>switched her position based on contributions. There are SO
>MANY to point to, and yet he fumbled that opportunity. Even in
>the Wall Street bail out, the most obvious one, he didn't land
>that punch.


He couldn't name any examples because the answer is not really black and white...There are too many grays....

If Bernie mentions the Wall Street Bail Out then that means he would be going after damn near the majority of Democrats....And u know who the main Democrat would be?: President Obama...

Again, in the far left world this is GREAT red meat.....But for every day folks, while they do blame Wall Street for workers getting the raw end of the deal, u have to be able to connect the dots....And Bernie is having trouble doing just that....

I for one have come out and said that Clinton leads to release at least one of those speech transcripts....But if anyone thinks that transcripts will stop Clinton from getting elected President, bless their heart...

What Bernie is doing is inferring that Clinton is in Wall Street and Big Money's pockets...But u have to be ready to back it up with specific instances...It turns into a candidate basically being less about the specifics of his policies and more of a morality play....

U need more than that to win elections...

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

  

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bentagain
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Fri Apr-15-16 10:24 AM

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180. "I find the angle of the gun debate on the dem side strange TBH"
In response to Reply # 165
Fri Apr-15-16 10:26 AM by bentagain

  

          

being a Bern supporter, obviously I get what he's saying

Vermont doesn't have the gun issues that other states do

and HRC has been able to hit him on his record and paint that to a nationwide view

got it, smart on her part, no doubt

IMO, I haven't heard the debate center around being able to sue manufacturer's prior to this dem primary

what I've read about gun control has to do with making access harder

stricter regulations, etc...

also, alot of those measures are already on the books and not being enforced, but we cant talk about that without criticizing BHO

but TBH, HRC is lying

she lied about Vermont being the main supplier of NY illegal guns (I think the number referred to is 55 guns from Vermont, or 1.something%)

she's also lying by continuing to say they can't be sued

they can be, have been and currently are

as stated in a previous post, there are current lawsuits for defective safties, triggers, illegal sales etc...

I don't see how suing for just a general use in crimes actually addresses the overall gun control issue

and it's rather disingenous to use sandy hook as the example

I mean, we all feel for the survivors who lost loved ones

but the shooter murdered the gun owner (his mother), I don't see the connection to how the manufacturer is liable for that

and again, how just general lawsuits prevent the supply.

---------------------------------------------------------------

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you can't understand it with an explanation

  

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legsdiamond
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Fri Apr-15-16 10:29 AM

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182. "i dont like the topic at all"
In response to Reply # 180
Fri Apr-15-16 10:46 AM by legsdiamond

          

any talk of gun regulation brings out all the fun lovers and they VOTE and they also buy hellafied guns out of paranoia.

guns sales under Obama's watch have been imsane. he has been the best gun seller in history.

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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Mr. ManC
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Fri Apr-15-16 10:54 AM

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188. "no, I'm coming around on that issue."
In response to Reply # 180


  

          

I mean, for example let's say you're Toyota. And you sell a car to Joe Smith.

Joe Smith gets shit hammered drunk one night and runs a red light a strikes and kills a pedestrian.

Should Toyota be protected from liability for damages inflicted at someone else's volition?

Hmm, actually when you put it like that it still doesn't make sense. You'll have to ask a Hillary supported to explain that one. Sounds like common sense to me.

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murph71
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Fri Apr-15-16 11:21 AM

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196. "RE: no, I'm coming around on that issue."
In response to Reply # 188


          



It;s not Bernie's stance on guns that's REALLY the issue...

It's his flippant response...U already know that Bernie laughing (during the gun discussion) from last evening will find itself in heavy rotation in a future ad...

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

  

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Mr. ManC
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239. "naw I agree with you."
In response to Reply # 196


  

          

The optics of that juxtaposition looked bad, but logically he is sound.

________________________________________________

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#13irteen

  

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CRichMonkey
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Fri Apr-15-16 10:55 AM

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189. "Bernie can't properly prosecute his case without a plan... "
In response to Reply # 165


  

          

Last night showed me two things:

1.) Hillary and Bernie are only separated by degrees and vocal enthusiasm on 90% of the issues that they could impact as president and

2.) Bernie's lack of details really undercuts his ability to make statements about sweeping change. When it's all said and done, folks wanna do what Bernie wants to do, but he can't tell them how they're gonna get there.

It's like what happened in Chicago when Rahm ran against Chuy. Folks liked what Chuy had to say, but he ain't have no plan to back it up and it cost him because voters kinda like elected officials who lay out things like plans. Bernie is having that same problem. For young voters, that debate looked like a win for him because they saw him speak truth to power and say what he feels. For older voters, he totally lost because they saw him yammering on about breaking up banks when they don't need to hear that, they need to know how he plans to get it done.




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murph71
Member since Sep 15th 2005
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Fri Apr-15-16 11:11 AM

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193. "RE: Bernie can't properly prosecute his case without a plan... "
In response to Reply # 189
Fri Apr-15-16 11:12 AM by murph71

          

>Last night showed me two things:
>
>1.) Hillary and Bernie are only separated by degrees and vocal
>enthusiasm on 90% of the issues that they could impact as
>president and
>
>2.) Bernie's lack of details really undercuts his ability to
>make statements about sweeping change. When it's all said and
>done, folks wanna do what Bernie wants to do, but he can't
>tell them how they're gonna get there.
>
>It's like what happened in Chicago when Rahm ran against Chuy.
> Folks liked what Chuy had to say, but he ain't have no plan
>to back it up and it cost him because voters kinda like
>elected officials who lay out things like plans. Bernie is
>having that same problem. For young voters, that debate
>looked like a win for him because they saw him speak truth to
>power and say what he feels. For older voters, he totally
>lost because they saw him yammering on about breaking up banks
>when they don't need to hear that, they need to know how he
>plans to get it done.


This^^^^^

Again, can't get stressed enough. If the fuel that drives your engine is Clinton is too close to Wall Street, then u have to have specifics on how she has shone to be under their spell...When pressed, Bernie was unable to do so...

Politics is a dirty business...But it's also quite simple......It helps to have a weak, muddling candidate in order to paint that person the way u want....The problem is Clinton, who is a lot of things, ain't weak...When u go against someone like her u have to have your shit together...U gotta have concrete facts, and not just innuendo....

I think Bernie does most of his damage on Clinton when it comes to her Middle East policies....He needs to turn the heat up on THAT if he wants to truly do some damage to Clinton....

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

  

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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
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Fri Apr-15-16 08:31 AM

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166. "TRANSCRIPTS? WE TALKING BOUT TRANSCRIPTS? "
In response to Reply # 0


          


man, that shit was HILLARYOUS!!!!

Hilldawg: "well, I released my taxes"

moderator: "cool, thanks for the tax info but lets get back to these transcripts"

Hilldawg: lets talk about tax returns

damn she must have said some slurpy shit in those speeches

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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bentagain
Member since Mar 19th 2008
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Fri Apr-15-16 08:44 AM

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170. "yeah, the deflection to other candidates isn't gonna hold"
In response to Reply # 166


  

          

voters want to know

it's not about other candidates at this point

---------------------------------------------------------------

If you can't understand it without an explanation

you can't understand it with an explanation

  

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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
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Fri Apr-15-16 09:05 AM

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173. "well, we know the GOP will use that shit all damn day"
In response to Reply # 170


          

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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murph71
Member since Sep 15th 2005
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Fri Apr-15-16 11:25 AM

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198. "RE: well, we know the GOP will use that shit all damn day"
In response to Reply # 173


          



No...they won't....Republicans are not going to go after Clinton on her Wall Street transcripts...Because we are talking about Trump and Cruz...When u look into their backgrounds then it becomes all too clear that that's a subject they don't want to touch...

It will be Benghazi and Emails all day....Wall Street speech transcripts is only red meat for the progressive crowd....

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

  

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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
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Fri Apr-15-16 11:29 AM

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200. "maybe, but GOP oves big busines so they may say fuck it"
In response to Reply # 198


          

and release a speech and then ask,her to do the same.

what do they have to lose besides the election?

i would release a transcript fast as shit if I was Cruz or Trump and then show how Hillary is a gotdamn liar if I wanted to win voters over.

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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murph71
Member since Sep 15th 2005
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Fri Apr-15-16 11:35 AM

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202. "RE: maybe, but GOP oves big busines so they may say fuck it"
In response to Reply # 200


          




GOP can't do it...Because the two leading candidates they will have running for President (Trump and Cruz) have BIG MONEY ties too....

It's a non issue for Republicans...They would rather use a smoking gun (like Clinton flip flopping on a certain issue just because she had ties to Wall Street) than left leaning ideology...

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

  

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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
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Fri Apr-15-16 12:38 PM

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215. "but everyone knows the GOP has big money ties bruh"
In response to Reply # 202


          

so it's not going to turn anyone off from voting for Cruz or Trump.

but some independents will probably be turned off if Hillary plays the "tough on Wall St" angle while refusing to show her speeches.

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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murph71
Member since Sep 15th 2005
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Fri Apr-15-16 01:33 PM

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225. "RE: but everyone knows the GOP has big money ties bruh"
In response to Reply # 215
Fri Apr-15-16 01:57 PM by murph71

          

>so it's not going to turn anyone off from voting for Cruz or
>Trump.
>
>but some independents will probably be turned off if Hillary
>plays the "tough on Wall St" angle while refusing to show her
>speeches.

The problem is it opens up too much for Trump and Cruz to explain themselves...

It's like expecting Republican candidates to talk about things in a general that only the true believers in their base care about.......Wall Street is not a Republican talking point....
Talking about Wall Street would paint the Republicans as anti-Capitalism....ThAT'S NOT HOW THEY GET DOWN...Republicans would rather go after Clinton on trade issues (TPP)....Well, Trump will. That's HIS bag...

Cruz has soft shoed on that only to keep up with Trump....But Trump never goes over the line of SEEMING like he is shitting on Capitalism....That's not his angle...

U can already tell which way the Republican party is pointing in terms of their Clinton attacks; EMAILS....BENGHAZI......Wall Street is last on the list.....

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

  

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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
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Sat Apr-16-16 07:13 AM

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258. "Trump just said Hillary is owned by Wall St and he agrees with Bernie......"
In response to Reply # 225
Sat Apr-16-16 07:38 AM by legsdiamond

          

They just played the video on Good Morning America

"Hillary is owned by Wall St, this is one topic I agree with Bernie on"

Lmao... as long as she refuses to release transcripts it will be used because it makes her look like she is hiding something.

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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murph71
Member since Sep 15th 2005
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Sat Apr-16-16 08:32 AM

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265. "RE: Trump just said Hillary is owned by Wall St and he agrees with Berni..."
In response to Reply # 258


          

>They just played the video on Good Morning America
>
>"Hillary is owned by Wall St, this is one topic I agree with
>Bernie on"
>
>Lmao... as long as she refuses to release transcripts it will
>be used because it makes her look like she is hiding
>something.


Trump fucking up....Because now he's going to have to open up HIS books....lol

Nobody ever said dude was logical....(Trump said he's not showing his taxes because he's being audited...lol)

Oh yeah....Trump is also going to have to offer up transcripts to his recent paid speeches too....This is going to be fun....lol

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

  

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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
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Sat Apr-16-16 09:34 AM

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267. "Bruh, you arent making any damn sense. "
In response to Reply # 265


          

Trump is a mascot for big business. You really think a speech could hurt a billionaire who had a tv show firing people every week?

Cmon Murph


****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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maryhattalillamb
Member since May 27th 2006
149 posts
Sat Apr-16-16 09:54 AM

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270. "I'm not allowed to reply to him so I'm glad you pointed the obvious."
In response to Reply # 267


          

>Trump is a mascot for big business. You really think a speech
>could hurt a billionaire who had a tv show firing people every
>week?


Trump IS big business.
He is not campaigning as being a champion for the poor and underserved like HRC is so he is not lieing to and double-talking The People.
Half of Trump's speeches are "I'm worth $10 billion", "I made a lot of money", "It's going to be great again", "I have a lot of wealthy friends"

  

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denny
Member since Apr 11th 2008
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Sat Apr-16-16 02:06 PM

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279. "Trump doesn't want to for the opposite reason."
In response to Reply # 267


          

He doesn't want everyone to know how LITTLE money he made.

  

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maryhattalillamb
Member since May 27th 2006
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Sat Apr-16-16 02:19 PM

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281. "Are you serious?"
In response to Reply # 279


          

>He doesn't want everyone to know how LITTLE money he made.

Put a number up.
How much do you think Trump has made?
How much do you think his businesses are worth?

  

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denny
Member since Apr 11th 2008
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Sat Apr-16-16 03:10 PM

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287. "I have no idea."
In response to Reply # 281


          

But I bet it's less than he wants people to think.

  

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maryhattalillamb
Member since May 27th 2006
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Sat Apr-16-16 04:26 PM

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293. "No matter what he's still top 0.1% wealthiest in America"
In response to Reply # 287


          

Who cares if he has $1.5B instead of $10.0B

  

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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
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Sun Apr-17-16 08:51 AM

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304. "Lmao... trump doesnt give a shit about that at all"
In response to Reply # 279


          

and he has no problem lying about it regardelss of the hard numbers

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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Eric B Is Prez
Member since Nov 08th 2005
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Fri Apr-15-16 10:35 AM

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183. "RE: TRANSCRIPTS? WE TALKING BOUT TRANSCRIPTS? "
In response to Reply # 166


  

          

Why hasn't Bernie just released his tax returns? I'm honestly asking. I assume they really are as boring as he says they are.

I wish he would just release them so Hillary can't use that as an excuse anymore, and she'll be forced to release the transcripts of her speeches.

_______________________________________________________________________________________

  

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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
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Fri Apr-15-16 10:45 AM

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186. "jewish people are funny about their finances"
In response to Reply # 183


          

but even if he released them tomorrow she isn't releasing those transcripts.

She already has another answer that once all the other candidates release their speech transcripts she will do the same.

You know she kissing all types of ass in those speeches so they will never be released and the GOP is going to kill her on this shit along with that gotdamn Benghazi and email scandal

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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murph71
Member since Sep 15th 2005
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Fri Apr-15-16 11:00 AM

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190. "RE: jewish people are funny about their finances"
In response to Reply # 186
Fri Apr-15-16 11:02 AM by murph71

          

>but even if he released them tomorrow she isn't releasing
>those transcripts.
>
>She already has another answer that once all the other
>candidates release their speech transcripts she will do the
>same.
>
>You know she kissing all types of ass in those speeches so
>they will never be released and the GOP is going to kill her
>on this shit along with that gotdamn Benghazi and email
>scandal


Hilldawg needs to release one of those speeches to just shut this shit down...

But Bernie ain't doing himself any favors by being stonewalled at the debate when asked to name one instance where Clinton was specifically swayed by Wall Street because of those speeches...

It goes along with the same critique Bernie continues to be dragged down by....If your biggest talking point is HILLARY IS ON THE WALL STREET TAKE! Then, um, shouldn't u be ready to pounce with a specific answer?

The reason he can't is because this shit is too complex to boil down....The minute he brings up those Wall Street Bailouts, which were done in connection with the Auto Bailout at a time our economy was in free-fall, the Democratic Party he needs to win will be giving him the side-eye...

Right now, Bernie has a cool talking point for the hardcore progressives to do backflips over....But everybody else is like: Show us...don't tell us....

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

  

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Eric B Is Prez
Member since Nov 08th 2005
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Fri Apr-15-16 11:07 AM

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191. "RE: jewish people are funny about their finances"
In response to Reply # 186


  

          

She was on national television last night saying she would release the transcripts as soon as Bernie releases his tax returns. Millions of people heard it.

Bernie should have done it first thing this morning. Like "OK, your turn!" If she then moved the goalposts again it would have looked ridiculous and Bernie could have really made her pay for it. I just don't get it.

_______________________________________________________________________________________

  

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murph71
Member since Sep 15th 2005
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Fri Apr-15-16 11:17 AM

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194. "RE: jewish people are funny about their finances"
In response to Reply # 191


          

>She was on national television last night saying she would
>release the transcripts as soon as Bernie releases his tax
>returns. Millions of people heard it.
>
>Bernie should have done it first thing this morning. Like "OK,
>your turn!" If she then moved the goalposts again it would
>have looked ridiculous and Bernie could have really made her
>pay for it. I just don't get it.


Clinton knows that in a general election that Wall Street speech transcripts won't matter...At all...

Because she will be going against either Trump (who has given a shit load of paid speeches...) or Cruz (wife was BIG MONEY executive)...

They won't be going after her over some damn Wall Street ties...They will be on that Benghazi/Email attack....And even that's weak sauce....The problem is Clinton's weak spots are the things Republicans won't attack her over....The irony is crazy...

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

  

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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
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Fri Apr-15-16 11:24 AM

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197. "lmao, nah.. you missed the follow up"
In response to Reply # 191


          

she shifted to taxes and then she said when others release their transcripts she will as well. She knows damn well the GOP won't release their speeches so it's nothing more than a deflection.

millions of people saw Hillary admit she won't ever release those transcripts.

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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murph71
Member since Sep 15th 2005
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Fri Apr-15-16 11:32 AM

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201. "RE: lmao, nah.. you missed the follow up"
In response to Reply # 197


          

>she shifted to taxes and then she said when others release
>their transcripts she will as well. She knows damn well the
>GOP won't release their speeches so it's nothing more than a
>deflection.
>
>millions of people saw Hillary admit she won't ever release
>those transcripts.


U not getting it....Clinton is doing this because she knows REPUBLICANS WON'T EVEN TOUCH IT....

What Clinton is doing is running out the clock with Bernie...She has a 2.4 million vote lead...She's leading in pledged delegates...And she's leading in NYC and Penn.....What she wants is to be done with Bernie by late April (which when u look at the next states up to bat is VERY possible...)...Which means she will be done having to hear that she is in the pocket of Wall Street....Do I want her to release them shits? Yep...Just to shut Bernie up....

But again, the only folks that REALLY care about what Clinton said in Wall Street transcripts r hardcore progressives and folks on the left who think she's the devil....Nobody else cares...Trust me....

Republicans got too many skeletons in their closet to go that Wall Street route...
It will be Benghazi/Emails all day...

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

  

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Eric B Is Prez
Member since Nov 08th 2005
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Fri Apr-15-16 12:39 PM

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216. "Hyperbole"
In response to Reply # 201


  

          

>But again, the only folks that REALLY care about what Clinton
>said in Wall Street transcripts r hardcore progressives and
>folks on the left who think she's the devil....Nobody else
>cares...Trust me....

You make it sound like only the anti-Hillary zealots are worried about the transcripts. I think a lot of more moderate voters are at least a little curious. These are the same bankers and corporations that she's promising to regulate as President. So her comments and promises to them behind closed doors are absolutely relevant.

_______________________________________________________________________________________

  

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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
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Fri Apr-15-16 12:48 PM

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219. "IKR... this isn't about progressives"
In response to Reply # 216


          

the average American would probably like to know what she got paid 21 million to talk about these last 2 years.

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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PimpTrickGangstaClik
Member since Oct 06th 2005
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Fri Apr-15-16 01:20 PM

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224. "Yup. He's caught up in the election and winning strategies"
In response to Reply # 219


  

          

I just want to know what she's telling Goldman behind closed doors

_______________________________________
You ain't the only one whose got problems. You ain't the only one who knows pain. Get up off your ass and just solve them. You still got a chance to try to change, try the shit again.
Devin tha Dude

  

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murph71
Member since Sep 15th 2005
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Fri Apr-15-16 02:11 PM

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232. "RE: Yup. He's caught up in the election and winning strategies"
In response to Reply # 224
Fri Apr-15-16 02:13 PM by murph71

          

>I just want to know what she's telling Goldman behind closed
>doors


No...not one bit....I'm talking about common sense....

Bernie gets more traction off of anti-TPP trade attacks than going at Clinton for Wall Street speeches....

U know why?

Because TPP is something that is tangible....There's an example of free trade having an messy effect on every day Americans.....It can be followed....There is a there THERE.....And Clinton backs TPP....And she is trying to flip flop now...THAT'S an issue...

Instead, Bernie is going on and on about Wall Street speeches while Clinton has increased her NYC lead over him to 17 points....And then when asked how Clinton has bent over for Wall Street, Bernie has no answer...

It's kinda laughable....Again, I want Clinton to release one of those Cot damn speeches just to shut Bernie up and be done with it.....But her not releasing those speeches will not make or break her campaign....

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

  

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murph71
Member since Sep 15th 2005
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Fri Apr-15-16 02:03 PM

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230. "RE: Hyperbole"
In response to Reply # 216


          

>>But again, the only folks that REALLY care about what
>Clinton
>>said in Wall Street transcripts r hardcore progressives and
>>folks on the left who think she's the devil....Nobody else
>>cares...Trust me....
>
>You make it sound like only the anti-Hillary zealots are
>worried about the transcripts. I think a lot of more moderate
>voters are at least a little curious. These are the same
>bankers and corporations that she's promising to regulate as
>President. So her comments and promises to them behind closed
>doors are absolutely relevant.


NO...I'm making it sound like this: Unless u have specific instances to Clinton being in Wall Streets pocket (the question Bernie had trouble answering), it's really only what hardcore progressives care about...

If your answer is: SHE BAILED WALL STREET OUT, then that's going to fall flat for obvious reasons...

Not enough people will care about Clinton's speech transcripts in the general public unless u back up the talk with actual instances in ol' girl flipping over for Wall Street...

But it's a def. a good talking point in a Democratic primary....Clinton should just release them though just to kill the noise....

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

  

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Mr. ManC
Member since Jan 26th 2009
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Fri Apr-15-16 11:09 AM

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192. "I feel the only reason would be to use last night"
In response to Reply # 183


  

          

as a platform that he is going to release them. He could kind of counter punch and say that he is releasing them to juxtapose her deflection about the transcripts.

We shall see though.

________________________________________________

SUPA NERD LLC.
Knowledge Meets Nature
Musica Negra
#13irteen

  

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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
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Fri Apr-15-16 11:26 AM

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199. "the way he danced around his taxes made me believe he got funny money"
In response to Reply # 192


          

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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Eric B Is Prez
Member since Nov 08th 2005
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Fri Apr-15-16 11:38 AM

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203. "Yeah it was weird"
In response to Reply # 199


  

          

And I like Bernie so it was frustrating

_______________________________________________________________________________________

  

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PROMO
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Fri Apr-15-16 11:59 AM

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205. "didn't he JUST release his 2014 return a day or two ago?"
In response to Reply # 203


  

          

and it showed he and his wife basically just had income from his government salary?

STAND OUT HAND OUTS: http://basquiatwhenipaint.tumblr.com

TWEET ME: @PROMO206

  

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Eric B Is Prez
Member since Nov 08th 2005
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Fri Apr-15-16 12:15 PM

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208. "RE: didn't he JUST release his 2014 return a day or two ago?"
In response to Reply # 205


  

          

Last night he made it sound like he hadn't done it yet, and was sort of vague about why. Maybe I heard him wrong.

_______________________________________________________________________________________

  

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PROMO
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209. "i guess i was right and wrong:"
In response to Reply # 208


  

          

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2016/4/3/1509902/-Bernie-Sanders-Did-Release-his-Tax-Returns-Sort-of

STAND OUT HAND OUTS: http://basquiatwhenipaint.tumblr.com

TWEET ME: @PROMO206

  

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Eric B Is Prez
Member since Nov 08th 2005
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Fri Apr-15-16 12:29 PM

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211. "RE: i guess i was right and wrong:"
In response to Reply # 209


  

          

If he had shady tax deductions it'll be pretty awkward. You know, with the whole Panama thing. I hope not.

_______________________________________________________________________________________

  

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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
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Fri Apr-15-16 12:35 PM

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214. "its the way he answered that made it appear something"
In response to Reply # 209


          

ain't right...

now maybe he is just a funny guy when it comes to money talk but he sure sounded like he was hiding something

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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Mynoriti
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Fri Apr-15-16 01:12 PM

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223. "i was kind of surprised by that too"
In response to Reply # 214


  

          

while her shit was pure deflection, i fully expected him to say he'd release all his tax returns, like, tomorrow, and say now lets get back to these transcripts.

>ain't right...
>
>now maybe he is just a funny guy when it comes to money talk
>but he sure sounded like he was hiding something

--------
http://ambitiondeficitdisorder.tumblr.com/

  

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Mynoriti
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Fri Apr-15-16 12:03 PM

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206. "Definitely her worst moment. She's really trying to run out the clock"
In response to Reply # 166


  

          

because she knows in the general it won't matter as much because she'll be contrasted with some horrible human being, and not Bernie Sanders

It's pretty cringeworthy watching her try to find a lane to dodge this every time it comes up

--------
http://ambitiondeficitdisorder.tumblr.com/

  

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kfine
Member since Jan 11th 2009
1552 posts
Fri Apr-15-16 12:34 PM

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213. "**** Post Jack: Dems and the Gun Issue ****"
In response to Reply # 0


     &nb