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Mr. ManC
Member since Jan 26th 2009
11819 posts
Mon Apr-04-16 10:04 AM

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"Presidential Primary Post Part 7: WI/WY/NY/Rate My Avy"


  

          

So here it comes, the big ones....Wince-consin and New York (and Wyoming) but I feel a sweep coming on. Bernie is getting all of the momentum and Hillary is starting to backsliding.

Also, please rate my avy appropriately. It is a recent piece I had commissioned. I call it "New York State of Mind".

Really looking forward to this NY battle though. I think it will at least get some things brought to light about their differences. I want another debate too, but maybe after Hillary loses WI.


________________________________________________
R.I.P. Soulgyal <3
SUPA NERD LLC.
Knowledge Meets Nature
Musica Negra
#13irteen

  

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Topic Outline
Subject Author Message Date ID
Scary article if you believe it.
Apr 04th 2016
1
RE: Scary article if you believe it.
Apr 04th 2016
2
Don't believe it.
Apr 04th 2016
3
      RE: Don't believe it.
Apr 04th 2016
4
      yup
Apr 04th 2016
5
      Trump as savior?
Apr 04th 2016
11
           RE: Trump as savior?
Apr 04th 2016
13
           Yeah, and it might even save Trump's legacy somewhat
Apr 04th 2016
29
                At the same time.....
Apr 04th 2016
38
      Nonsense
Apr 04th 2016
16
           Sorry, 41.3%
Apr 04th 2016
20
           RE: Nonsense
Apr 04th 2016
24
LoL @ the avy.
Apr 04th 2016
6
The issue is records aren't killing the frontrunners
Apr 04th 2016
7
RE: The issue is records aren't killing the frontrunners
Apr 04th 2016
8
Yeah, b/c Trump was not a government official, Kasich is.
Apr 04th 2016
12
RE: LoL @ the avy.
Apr 04th 2016
10
      Hmm, so you think expanding medicaid via Obamacare
Apr 04th 2016
14
           *DING DING DING DING DING DING DING*
Apr 04th 2016
15
           Someone is getting paid 6 figures by the DNC to do the exact
Apr 04th 2016
26
           RE: Hmm, so you think expanding medicaid via Obamacare
Apr 04th 2016
17
A+ avi
Apr 04th 2016
9
Cruz in dat black book
Apr 04th 2016
18
RE: Cruz in dat black book
Apr 04th 2016
19
      I think there is a bigger question of whether sex scandals
Apr 04th 2016
21
           RE: I think there is a bigger question of whether sex scandals
Apr 04th 2016
25
           Agreed.
Apr 04th 2016
39
           they are among the people who like Cruz
Apr 04th 2016
33
Nobody noticed this Barney Frank interview in the other thread.
Apr 04th 2016
22
We did.
Apr 04th 2016
23
Not interested in a guy who actually HAS broken up banks.
Apr 04th 2016
28
      It's just that we've heard this before.
Apr 04th 2016
41
      he says similar things about obama several times a year.
Apr 04th 2016
45
      Dodd-Frank is a joke
Apr 04th 2016
43
           This is a bizarre argument.
Apr 05th 2016
53
                It's not bizarre at all
Apr 05th 2016
80
RE: Nobody noticed this Barney Frank interview in the other thread.
Apr 04th 2016
27
I don't think Bernie's posing out here...
Apr 04th 2016
30
I'm looking hard for a single one of those bills...
Apr 04th 2016
31
      Dude was writing em' then...
Apr 04th 2016
32
      Point is, it was a crisis.
Apr 04th 2016
34
           barney frank was yelling at and pissing off both bush and obama in 2008
Apr 04th 2016
50
      1) 90 of his amendments passed; 2) Clinton's "successes"...
Apr 04th 2016
36
           Wicked...
Apr 04th 2016
40
           Ouch.
Apr 04th 2016
46
           https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7nlsib_Yy24
Apr 04th 2016
47
           lol, that ETHER
Apr 04th 2016
48
           Did you even read the article you posted?
Apr 05th 2016
55
                I said he "pushed for" the youth jobs program...
Apr 05th 2016
81
                     LOL
Apr 05th 2016
82
                          What Taibbi shows is an editorial hatchet job
Apr 05th 2016
83
                               That's not how the public editor viewed it, from what I remember.
Apr 05th 2016
84
                                    I encourage everyone here to read the Taibbi piece
Apr 05th 2016
88
lmao... of all the people in the world Barney Frank? Fannie Mae Frank?
Apr 04th 2016
35
Dodd-Frank Barney Frank,
Apr 04th 2016
37
      RE: Dodd-Frank Barney Frank,
Apr 04th 2016
42
      only thing Dodd Frank does is make money for lawyers
Apr 04th 2016
49
           When you ask Bernie how he'd legally break up a bank,
Apr 05th 2016
58
                it's the only option we have right now
Apr 05th 2016
62
                     And how would we get another option?
Apr 05th 2016
63
                          ^^^ And this is that Hil Magic that people are selling
Apr 05th 2016
85
                               Calm down.
Apr 05th 2016
86
                                    You keep comparing Hillary Clinton to Obama
Apr 06th 2016
112
                                         That's not how Obama feels.
Apr 06th 2016
122
we read it. it's a barney frank hates everything piece with some bernie ...
Apr 04th 2016
44
RE: we read it. it's a barney frank hates everything piece with some ber...
Apr 05th 2016
52
I think he's wrong about Scalia
Apr 05th 2016
60
Debate in Brooklyn! Set for April 14th!
Apr 05th 2016
51
Bernie's interview transcript with NY Daily News Ed. Board (Swipe)
Apr 05th 2016
54
Ask him a substantive question and he turns into Donald Trump.
Apr 05th 2016
56
RE: Ask him a substantive question and he turns into Donald Trump.
Apr 05th 2016
61
      Like large corporations haven't been broken up before...
Apr 05th 2016
65
           RE: Like large corporations haven't been broken up before...
Apr 05th 2016
67
                RE: Like large corporations haven't been broken up before...
Apr 05th 2016
69
                     RE: Like large corporations haven't been broken up before...
Apr 05th 2016
71
                     The embarrassing part, I think,
Apr 05th 2016
73
                          i hear you, but all this was true of teddy roosevelt, and it got done th...
Apr 05th 2016
95
                               RE: i hear you, but all this was true of teddy roosevelt, and it got don...
Apr 06th 2016
114
slow motion train wreck
Apr 05th 2016
57
RE: slow motion train wreck
Apr 05th 2016
64
Yeah, people keep blowing off the "he hasn't been scrutinzed" point
Apr 05th 2016
72
I didn't hear the there, there
Apr 10th 2016
309
It's gonna be tough for Bernie in NY, real tough
Apr 05th 2016
59
This SNL skit perfectly captures every hardcore supporter of a candidate
Apr 05th 2016
66
When they ask a politician a question and they respond with
Apr 05th 2016
68
I hate the "First of all...." tactic
Apr 05th 2016
70
      lol I've been working on this with my SO.
Apr 05th 2016
74
           RE: lol I've been working on this with my SO.
Apr 05th 2016
77
So what's the expectation tonight for the dems in Wisconsin?
Apr 05th 2016
75
Sounds about right.
Apr 05th 2016
76
Trump's 'Wall Plan' outlined in more detail
Apr 05th 2016
78
Hearing Trump talk about trade deficits makes my head hurt
Apr 05th 2016
79
he really has no idea how anything works
Apr 05th 2016
87
Since there are policy debates going on in this thread...
Apr 05th 2016
89
RE: Since there are policy debates going on in this thread...
Apr 05th 2016
90
      You keep harping on Sanders' supposed lack of plan...
Apr 05th 2016
93
      Exactly
Apr 05th 2016
99
      RE: You keep harping on Sanders' supposed lack of plan...
Apr 06th 2016
115
      Specific like her comments on the Golman Sachs transcripts?
Apr 05th 2016
96
           lol
Apr 05th 2016
100
                No Democrat EVER said &quot;too big to fail&quot; institutions are neces...
Apr 05th 2016
108
                     Are you kidding?
Apr 06th 2016
118
                     I'm talking about this:
Apr 06th 2016
128
                          RE: I'm talking about this:
Apr 06th 2016
129
Bern God already projected as winner of Wisconsin.
Apr 05th 2016
91
We want the gold sucka. New York, we coming for you n**** (c) Booker T
Apr 05th 2016
92
LOL
Apr 05th 2016
94
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Apr 05th 2016
97
Bernie was up on Hilldawg in Wisconsin....
Apr 06th 2016
111
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yio5TT4PiVQ
Apr 05th 2016
98
Bernie wins WI +8, needed to win +25. Nothing changes.
Apr 05th 2016
101
That's ridiculous. He needs 57% of the remaining delegates
Apr 05th 2016
102
Do you understand how hard it is to get to 57%?
Apr 05th 2016
103
Clinton folks are shifting the goal posts now
Apr 05th 2016
104
      He's down by 300+ delegates and 2.5million votes...
Apr 05th 2016
106
      I'm critiquing your claims of inevitability
Apr 05th 2016
109
           Most probable is a better wager than maybe possible...
Apr 05th 2016
110
                If we have any chance of not nominating a neocon...
Apr 06th 2016
131
      RE: Clinton folks are shifting the goal posts now
Apr 06th 2016
113
He's missing that target, but that's even worse news for him than it sou...
Apr 05th 2016
105
RE: That's ridiculous. He needs 57% of the remaining delegates
Apr 06th 2016
120
sadly you're right. Was hoping for at least 60/40
Apr 06th 2016
119
      A 60/40 split would have resulted in 1 (possibly 2) more delegates than ...
Apr 06th 2016
135
Great interview with Michelle Alexander (video)
Apr 05th 2016
107
Candidate leanings/bias aside, this interview is fantastic
Apr 06th 2016
152
      Word. I like that she doesn't endorse Bernie...
Apr 06th 2016
159
been swamped at work but I will address
Apr 06th 2016
116
9 things Bernie Sanders should’ve known about but didn’t (W.P. Swipe...
Apr 06th 2016
117
Translation: Jeff Bezos (worth $47 billion) hates Bernie Sanders
Apr 06th 2016
121
lol
Apr 06th 2016
123
This too is true lol
Apr 06th 2016
125
RE: Translation: Jeff Bezos (worth $47 billion) hates Bernie Sanders
Apr 06th 2016
126
Clinton has been criticized on exactly the same grounds
Apr 06th 2016
130
if u ain't do this to anybody that challenges Bernie
Apr 06th 2016
138
      I've agreed with criticisms of Bernie from Margaret Kimberley, Glen Ford
Apr 06th 2016
147
We know his stances from the interview...
Apr 06th 2016
124
RE: We know his stances from the interview...
Apr 06th 2016
127
      I think I care about the details on them both...
Apr 06th 2016
132
More reading for Murph/Strav (breaking up banks part)
Apr 06th 2016
145
What is the beef with Sanders' gun position?
Apr 06th 2016
133
Agreed. She's being silly
Apr 06th 2016
134
I think we should have TWO remembrance days.
Apr 06th 2016
140
      lol yeah, it's pretty much that
Apr 06th 2016
144
I don't get it either
Apr 06th 2016
142
i don't get why dems think this is an issue for elections
Apr 06th 2016
154
This is late but: There's a larger discussion re: the PLCAA
Apr 11th 2016
311
15% if Wisconsin Bernie supporters didn't vote down ticket
Apr 06th 2016
136
there were 100K more GOP voters who came out
Apr 06th 2016
137
In other words, Trump and Cruz are leading a revolution.
Apr 06th 2016
141
      a revolution motivated by 8 years of Obama
Apr 06th 2016
149
           Yes! A revolution on the right!
Apr 06th 2016
151
                you're mischaracterizing what's going on, and i'm pretty sure you know i...
Apr 06th 2016
157
                a black man in the WH was all they needed for motivation
Apr 06th 2016
158
how much worse would it have been if bernie had already dropped out?
Apr 06th 2016
155
      and again, y'all got this backwards, the national dem machine has failed
Apr 06th 2016
156
6 of the last 7 shows LOTS of momentum.
Apr 06th 2016
139
To the extent that's true, it would be a catastrophe.
Apr 06th 2016
143
This is a lot like 2008, really...
Apr 06th 2016
148
      i dont remember Hillary winning 6 of 7 in 2008
Apr 06th 2016
150
           nah, he's saying Bernie is Obama
Apr 06th 2016
153
           RE: i dont remember Hillary winning 6 of 7 in 2008
Apr 07th 2016
163
This Politico piece is a pretty fair critique of Hillary imo
Apr 06th 2016
146
Naomi Klein on Clinton and fossil fuels (swipe)
Apr 06th 2016
160
God amighty.
Apr 06th 2016
161
      Are you saying fracking isn't a huge source of GHG emissions?
Apr 06th 2016
162
           The GHG emissions are a subtler issue than you think, but no.
Apr 07th 2016
171
                The EPA has found widespread criminal violations
Apr 07th 2016
176
                     You keep saying irrelevant things that everybody knows,
Apr 07th 2016
179
                          LOL. So the industry's constant violations of the law...
Apr 07th 2016
180
                               If it's regulated, fine.
Apr 07th 2016
183
                                    Do you realize how underfunded and understaffed...
Apr 07th 2016
184
Bernie: "Hillary not qualified to be President" (CNN)
Apr 07th 2016
164
He's playing with fire on this.
Apr 07th 2016
165
RE: He's playing with fire on this.
Apr 07th 2016
172
      That was my first thought.
Apr 07th 2016
181
Same thing she said about Obama in 2008
Apr 07th 2016
166
^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Apr 07th 2016
167
RE: Same thing she said about Obama in 2008
Apr 07th 2016
169
So it was okay when she said it about Obama?
Apr 07th 2016
170
      RE: So it was okay when she said it about Obama?
Apr 07th 2016
173
RE: Sandy Hook
Apr 07th 2016
174
      RE: Sandy Hook
Apr 07th 2016
175
           Hey Murph, still deflecting I see
Apr 07th 2016
177
                RE: Hey Murph, still deflecting I see
Apr 07th 2016
178
                     RE: Hey Murph,here's your L
Apr 07th 2016
206
                          RE: Hey Murph,here's your L
Apr 08th 2016
250
                               Not doing much today, so I'll play
Apr 10th 2016
308
Cmon. He is trying to win a presidential election
Apr 07th 2016
182
RE: Cmon. He is trying to win a presidential election
Apr 07th 2016
185
      What can he talk about? What is on the pre-approved list of talking poin...
Apr 07th 2016
186
           Of course he can say the same stuff he's been saying...
Apr 07th 2016
187
           She questioned his qualifications to be president the day before...
Apr 07th 2016
188
                Give us a quote.
Apr 07th 2016
190
                Here you go:
Apr 07th 2016
192
                     So there is no quote.
Apr 07th 2016
193
                          No, her meaning couldn't be clearer.
Apr 07th 2016
195
                               The "Pro-Clinton Washington Post." LOL
Apr 07th 2016
196
                                    She gave them the opening, and they exploited it
Apr 07th 2016
200
                                         RE: She gave them the opening, and they exploited it
Apr 07th 2016
203
                                              If somebody asked, "Is Murph qualified to win this debate?"
Apr 07th 2016
208
                                                   RE: If somebody asked, "Is Murph qualified to win this debate?"
Apr 07th 2016
213
                                                        I think you're half right
Apr 07th 2016
215
                                                             RE: I think you're half right
Apr 08th 2016
237
                RE: She questioned his qualifications to be president the day before...
Apr 07th 2016
191
           RE: What can he talk about? What is on the pre-approved list of talking ...
Apr 07th 2016
189
                This is an issue. It's one on the central issues of his campaign
Apr 07th 2016
197
                     RE: This is an issue. It's one on the central issues of his campaign
Apr 07th 2016
199
                          I don't know why you keep trying to make this about purity politics...
Apr 07th 2016
202
                          RE: I don't know why you keep trying to make this about purity politics....
Apr 07th 2016
207
                          So it is just the word 'unqualified' that you have issues with?
Apr 07th 2016
224
                               RE: So it is just the word 'unqualified' that you have issues with?
Apr 08th 2016
245
                               I would say that it is the word itself.
Apr 08th 2016
267
                          RE: I don't know why you keep trying to make this about purity politics....
Apr 08th 2016
240
                          Wait a minute.....
Apr 07th 2016
204
                               RE: Wait a minute.....
Apr 07th 2016
209
                                    The only reason it's acceptable now is because it's the paradigm.
Apr 07th 2016
210
                                         RE: The only reason it's acceptable now is because it's the paradigm.
Apr 07th 2016
212
                                              Dude....
Apr 07th 2016
216
                                                   RE: Dude....
Apr 08th 2016
244
                                                        Why do you keep under-cutting the point here?
Apr 08th 2016
256
                                                             I, for one, don't see how that is the point.
Apr 08th 2016
263
                                                             So you don't just despise Bernie Sanders...
Apr 09th 2016
290
                                                             Wow, you really just asked me this.
Apr 09th 2016
294
                                                                  They aren't non sequiturs at all
Apr 09th 2016
297
                                                                       If you actually believed
Apr 09th 2016
299
                                                                            The Democrats and Republicans are far too similar...
Apr 09th 2016
304
                                                             It's not just oil and gas though.
Apr 09th 2016
293
                                                                  RE: It's not just oil and gas though.
Apr 09th 2016
298
                                                                       Not for nothing....Hillary Clinton disagrees with you.
Apr 09th 2016
300
                                                                            How are you being so dense here?
Apr 09th 2016
302
                                                             RE: Why do you keep under-cutting the point here?
Apr 08th 2016
276
                                                                  If you think that's silly than
Apr 09th 2016
296
                                                                       You seem to think you've hit upon some kind of logical proof here.
Apr 09th 2016
301
                                                                            It IS a logical conundrum for Clinton.
Apr 09th 2016
303
his lack of composure is what's troubling me the most
Apr 07th 2016
194
RE: his lack of composure is what's troubling me the most
Apr 07th 2016
198
Bernie is not a GOP plant. But this was a bad look.
Apr 07th 2016
205
      Yup. He should know how the media busts nuts over this kind of thing
Apr 07th 2016
211
great avy
Apr 07th 2016
168
the cognitive dissonance of being a Hillary supporter is gonna rip a lot...
Apr 07th 2016
201
You are not from the states right?
Apr 07th 2016
214
RE: You are not from the states right?
Apr 07th 2016
218
they are either twisting themselves into pretzels
Apr 07th 2016
223
Ol Billy double downs on the superpredator shyt
Apr 07th 2016
217
The campaign's gonna have to have a talk with Bill, once again.
Apr 07th 2016
219
I don't know what basis BLM is attacking them on.
Apr 07th 2016
220
On Stone Mountain (Swipe)
Apr 07th 2016
232
got damn, are you at least on her payroll???
Apr 07th 2016
222
wow, this is it huh?
Apr 07th 2016
221
RE: Ol Billy double downs on the superpredator shyt
Apr 07th 2016
226
lmmfao. I suppose we're not supposed to 'be in our feelings' about this
Apr 07th 2016
228
He actually said "a place where black lives matter: Africa"
Apr 07th 2016
229
You forget who Bill Clinton is...
Apr 07th 2016
231
      he ain't playing with chess he playing with fire
Apr 07th 2016
233
      lmao... slick willy aint so slick these days
Apr 08th 2016
236
      RE: You forget who Bill Clinton is...
Apr 08th 2016
242
      Politically, I think it was a solid move. I think you called it.
Apr 08th 2016
248
           Obama isnt running against her
Apr 08th 2016
252
                The states with big Black populations are done with, though.
Apr 08th 2016
253
                RE: The states with big Black populations are done with, though.
Apr 08th 2016
255
                MD
Apr 08th 2016
257
                Those states' Black populations pale in comparison to SC, GA,
Apr 08th 2016
258
                     bruh, she coulda slapped a black baby in the south and still woulda won
Apr 08th 2016
266
                she still needs the black vote in cities like Philly, LA, Oak, NYC, etc
Apr 08th 2016
265
                Black Youth Vote?!? What's that??!?!
Apr 08th 2016
274
This is my nightmare. HTC losing to kaisaich
Apr 07th 2016
225
Why do you keep reading that empty headed dude?
Apr 07th 2016
227
Wait, am I reading articles by the same guy over and over?
Apr 08th 2016
246
      Post 1.
Apr 08th 2016
254
Is he being serious or is that just an establishment fantasy?
Apr 07th 2016
234
The thing is, I strongly believe that if Trump doesn't seal the
Apr 08th 2016
247
      RE: The thing is, I strongly believe that if Trump doesn't seal the
Apr 08th 2016
251
      You have it backwards. Even if you're right and Trump doesnt want it
Apr 08th 2016
262
Yo Buddy....
Apr 08th 2016
238
get yer snake oil lotion
Apr 08th 2016
241
      RE: get yer snake oil lotion
Apr 08th 2016
243
           I clicked the link, read the title and closed that shit
Apr 08th 2016
249
bruh, wtf you smoking to have nightmares like that?
Apr 08th 2016
239
      Thing is, I mostly don't care EXCEPT for the supreme court
Apr 08th 2016
261
Obama warns Dems against 'Tea Party mentality' (SWIPE)
Apr 07th 2016
230
he should warn Dems against 'Howard Dean' mentality
Apr 08th 2016
273
Sanders beats Clinton nationally in new Atlantic/PRRI poll
Apr 08th 2016
235
The Clinton Body Count
Apr 08th 2016
259
^^^YAAAs, it was only a matter of time before we start treading
Apr 08th 2016
260
*bangs head on desk*
Apr 08th 2016
264
Post 230
Apr 08th 2016
268
      Some say she had smthg to do with BErta Caceres death as well
Apr 08th 2016
270
Turns out Bernie's 'Papal visit' would be very similar to Kim Davis's.
Apr 08th 2016
269
The whole thing sounds extremely convoluted
Apr 08th 2016
271
*sigh* Can it be November already?
Apr 08th 2016
272
for someone who claims to value logic
Apr 08th 2016
279
      LOL I'm sure there was a reason in your head for choosing that as a resp...
Apr 08th 2016
280
           Whose story should we believe? (swipe)
Apr 08th 2016
281
           RE: LOL I'm sure there was a reason in your head for choosing that as a ...
Apr 08th 2016
282
                I'm not making a mountain out of it. I literally said it's "no big deal....
Apr 08th 2016
283
                     more giant leaps of logic in defense of agenda
Apr 08th 2016
284
                          oooooooooooookeydokey...
Apr 08th 2016
286
                               RE: oooooooooooookeydokey...
Apr 08th 2016
287
                                    You're in some kinda mood. That's okay.
Apr 08th 2016
288
This whole election season just makes me wish we could keep Obama
Apr 08th 2016
275
I remember everyone said the same thing about Bill Clinton in '00
Apr 08th 2016
277
Bill Clinton: I almost want to apologize to BLM, but I won't
Apr 08th 2016
278
Look at Paul Ryan running for president!
Apr 08th 2016
285
Gordon Gekko feels the Bern lol
Apr 09th 2016
289
Honestly have not heard that argument framed that way before.
Apr 09th 2016
291
Well that's just basic economics, and it's been a standard Dem argument....
Apr 09th 2016
292
      Clinton's marginal tax increase for the 1% didn't even come close.
Apr 09th 2016
295
It's just old-fashioned Keynesian liberalism
Apr 09th 2016
305
Sanders is about to win Wyoming
Apr 09th 2016
306
Bernie wins WY 56/44 but might come home with less delegates
Apr 09th 2016
307
Bernie came to the Apollo!
Apr 10th 2016
310
Black Hebrews stepped to Bernie..lmao at the visual
Apr 11th 2016
313
There certainly seems to be a Trump fatigue eh?
Apr 11th 2016
312
Trump should win NY easily
Apr 11th 2016
314

Buddy_Gilapagos
Charter member
49394 posts
Mon Apr-04-16 10:14 AM

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1. "Scary article if you believe it. "
In response to Reply # 0
Mon Apr-04-16 10:15 AM by Buddy_Gilapagos

  

          

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/seth-abramson/the-democrats-10-point-plan-lose-election_b_9605608.html

But then if you look at all the writers other articles clearly dude has a bent.



**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

  

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murph71
Member since Sep 15th 2005
23113 posts
Mon Apr-04-16 10:21 AM

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2. "RE: Scary article if you believe it. "
In response to Reply # 1


          

>http://www.huffingtonpost.com/seth-abramson/the-democrats-10-point-plan-lose-election_b_9605608.html
>
>But then if you look at all the writers other articles clearly
>dude has a bent.


I needed a laugh this morning...Thanks, dog....

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

  

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stravinskian
Member since Feb 24th 2003
12698 posts
Mon Apr-04-16 10:30 AM

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3. "Don't believe it."
In response to Reply # 1


          


It's utterly stupid Sanders echo chamber bullshit. Hillary has nearly 50% more votes than Bernie, but somehow he's more popular.

I'd do a point by point by point rebuttal, but people get offended when you point out how uniformly stupid these arguments are.

The one thing I'll agree with this dude on is that yes, indeed, this general election will be harder than people assume, especially if someone like Kasich or Paul Ryan is chosen as the nominee (Cruz isn't a threat -- that's silly). But that's not a reason for us to choose a WEAKER candidate.

  

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murph71
Member since Sep 15th 2005
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Mon Apr-04-16 10:46 AM

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4. "RE: Don't believe it."
In response to Reply # 3


          


>The one thing I'll agree with this dude on is that yes,
>indeed, this general election will be harder than people
>assume, especially if someone like Kasich or Paul Ryan is
>chosen as the nominee (Cruz isn't a threat -- that's silly).
>But that's not a reason for us to choose a WEAKER candidate.


I've said it before...Kasich is the Democrats kryptonite....He would beat Hillary Clinton and he would paint Bernie into a corner....But "moderate" Repugs won't be getting the nod this year....The GOP is basically fucked...

If Trump gets the nod, he will take the GOP down with him ensuring a landslide L...

If they block Trump and try to give it to Paul Ryan or even Cruz, Trump will run as a 3rd party candidate and basically hand the election over the Hilldawg....

Again...GOP = FUCKED.....

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

  

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Ashy Achilles
Member since Sep 22nd 2005
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Mon Apr-04-16 11:10 AM

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5. "yup"
In response to Reply # 4


          

  

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denny
Member since Apr 11th 2008
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Mon Apr-04-16 12:32 PM

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11. "Trump as savior?"
In response to Reply # 4


          

If Kasich is 'given' the nomination I can't see Trump giving up. His ego won't allow for it. He goes independent and Kasich's done.

  

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murph71
Member since Sep 15th 2005
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Mon Apr-04-16 12:37 PM

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13. "RE: Trump as savior?"
In response to Reply # 11


          

>If Kasich is 'given' the nomination I can't see Trump giving
>up. His ego won't allow for it. He goes independent and
>Kasich's done.

Yeah...I said that already, homie....

"If they block Trump and try to give it to Paul Ryan or even Cruz, Trump will run as a 3rd party candidate and basically hand the election over the Hilldawg...."

(Notice I didn't mention Kasich.....because the GOP is too stupid to pick him....And even if they did, at this point, they can't stop Zombie Trump...)

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

  

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Mynoriti
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Mon Apr-04-16 03:43 PM

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29. "Yeah, and it might even save Trump's legacy somewhat"
In response to Reply # 11


  

          

He won't go away quietly. His supporters will follow him when he goes independent, and he can make the claim he would have won easily if the republican party didn't hose him. If he does get the nom and loses in a landslide, he goes down as the worst candidate in history.

  

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denny
Member since Apr 11th 2008
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Mon Apr-04-16 05:13 PM

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38. "At the same time....."
In response to Reply # 29
Mon Apr-04-16 05:13 PM by denny

          

Trump hates losing so much...it's hard to see him go into an election that is unwinnable as a third party.

On the other hand....it's hard to see him just retreat from a brokered convention that names somebody else.

End of the day...this is probably much ado about nothing. Trump will be the nominee. It's the only thing that works.

  

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Mansa Musa
Member since Feb 16th 2009
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Mon Apr-04-16 01:37 PM

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16. "Nonsense"
In response to Reply # 3
Mon Apr-04-16 01:38 PM by Mansa Musa

          

Clinton has 8.9 million popular votes, and Sanders has 6.3 million. That isn't close to a 50% advantage, and it's largely due to southern states that Clinton is guaranteed to lose in the general election.

If you take away the superdelegates, which can change, her advantage is 1243 to 980. That's a lead small enough to lose in a handful of primaries.

  

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stravinskian
Member since Feb 24th 2003
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Mon Apr-04-16 02:56 PM

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20. "Sorry, 41.3%"
In response to Reply # 16


          


In other words, still an ENORMOUS lead in the number of votes cast (not that that means anything, it's delegates that matter, but hopefully it'll make us rethink this terribly undemocratic caucus system).

As for "southern states that Clinton is guaranteed to lose in the general election", considering how much we've heard lately about Bernie's "big wins" in Utah, Idaho, Alaska, this dismissal of southern states is a bit disingenuous. Hillary won Ohio, Illinois, Massachusetts, Florida, she will win New York, New Jersey, and Pennsylvania. She's been winning states that Democrats always win, and she's been winning the states that Democrats need to win in the fall.

>If you take away the superdelegates, which can change, her
>advantage is 1243 to 980. That's a lead small enough to lose
>in a handful of primaries.

No, it really isn't. Bernie not only needs to win everything that remains, he needs to consistently win heavily contested states by 15 to 20 points. That is extremely unlikely.

http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/its-really-hard-to-get-bernie-sanders-988-more-delegates/

  

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murph71
Member since Sep 15th 2005
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Mon Apr-04-16 03:29 PM

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24. "RE: Nonsense"
In response to Reply # 16


          

>Clinton has 8.9 million popular votes, and Sanders has 6.3
>million. That isn't close to a 50% advantage, and it's largely
>due to southern states that Clinton is guaranteed to lose in
>the general election.
>
>If you take away the superdelegates, which can change, her
>advantage is 1243 to 980. That's a lead small enough to lose
>in a handful of primaries.


Even without the super delegates Bernie would need to win every state from here on out by nearly 60 percent to get the Dem nomination....

As for the southern state talking point I think u know better than that....Its been said a million times....The Democratic model for winning a general election does not include southern states. It's about getting a good share of those delegates in the south to chip away...The electoral map is basically Democratic friendly....U win Ohio, California, Illinois, Penn, Virginia and Colorado and its a wrap....

The election will not be won or lost with the South....

That said, Hilldawg or Bernie r good...Zombie Trump has hijacked the GOP...

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

  

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no_i_cant_dance
Member since Apr 10th 2006
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Mon Apr-04-16 11:57 AM

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6. "LoL @ the avy. "
In response to Reply # 0
Mon Apr-04-16 11:59 AM by no_i_cant_dance

  

          

I don't get how Kasich wouldn't lose in the general. Once his record in Ohio & @ Lehman come up it's gonna be curtains for him. He just as shitty on issues as the front-runner for his party & he has the misfortune of actually having a documented record of where he stands as governor and all.

Also, the GOP wins everywhere else. Not winning the Presidency doesn't stop Congress being controlled by the Republicans, SCOTUS is conservative as institution & ideologically, not to mention the local + state houses stay red.
It's wishful thinking that the GOP will implode if/when Trump loses. They're spreading their diseased agenda state by state: ruining poor Blacks folks ability to vote, taking away safe access to bathrooms for trans folks, trying to make abortion illegal by closing clinics/forcing doctors to have admitting privileges.

Meanwhile the Dems poisoning Black folks, shutting down schools where Black kids go, covering up/no indictments on the murders of Black people (kids!) by police...just to name a few.

Good luck to Black people & the other marginalized folks b/c our options be trash af.

<<Mood...Poppy Okotcha in Look 1 at Ashish Fall 2016
________________________________________

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sa7KBq0q5bU

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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7. "The issue is records aren't killing the frontrunners"
In response to Reply # 6


  

          

It's entirely personalities I think.





**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

  

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murph71
Member since Sep 15th 2005
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Mon Apr-04-16 12:06 PM

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8. "RE: The issue is records aren't killing the frontrunners"
In response to Reply # 7


          

>It's entirely personalities I think.



^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

  

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no_i_cant_dance
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Mon Apr-04-16 12:36 PM

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12. "Yeah, b/c Trump was not a government official, Kasich is."
In response to Reply # 7


  

          

Trump can run on the cult of his racist misogynist ableist Islamophobic etc. personality but that outsider shit not gonna work for Kasich aka he can't do what Trump do.

I think the reason that w/e poll has Kasich besting Clinton in the general is b/c of sexism + they haven't debated/gone after one another properly yet. They're both trash heaps tho, personality wise & everything else (preaching to the choir, I know lol).

<<Mood...Poppy Okotcha in Look 1 at Ashish Fall 2016
________________________________________

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sa7KBq0q5bU

  

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murph71
Member since Sep 15th 2005
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10. "RE: LoL @ the avy. "
In response to Reply # 6
Mon Apr-04-16 12:30 PM by murph71

          

>I don't get how Kasich wouldn't lose in the general. Once his
>record in Ohio & @ Lehman come up it's gonna be curtains for
>him. He just as shitty on issues as the front-runner for his
>party & he has the misfortune of actually having a documented
>record of where he stands as governor and all.

He's the Gov. of a state (Ohio) that matters big time in the general election; And when u try to get at Kasich for shutting down Planned Parenthood funding (which was some ideological bullshit) he can just pivot over to healthcare and tout the fact that he expanded Medicare...Nah dog...Kasich as a general election candidate would be a problem for Hillary or Bernie...Because while the Dems and Repugs both have their rabid factions, most of the country wants someone competent, can adjust in a political climate and not bat shit crazy....

>Also, the GOP wins everywhere else. Not winning the Presidency
>doesn't stop Congress being controlled by the Republicans,
>SCOTUS is conservative as institution & ideologically, not to
>mention the local + state houses stay red.
>It's wishful thinking that the GOP will implode if/when Trump
>loses. They're spreading their diseased agenda state by state:
>ruining poor Blacks folks ability to vote, taking away safe
>access to bathrooms for trans folks, trying to make abortion
>illegal by closing clinics/forcing doctors to have admitting
>privileges.

Not wishful thinking at all...With Trump on the ticket, Republicans will def. give the Democrats 10 plus seats in Congress.....That's the real reason conservatives don't want Trump on the ticket. THEY KNOW how he deeply affects their down ticket candidates...And SCOTUS will def be pushed more to a progressive vote after a GOP loss....And on the real, u really can't do anything about what wacked out, anti LGBT, ideologically driven Republican Gov.'s. The only thing u can do is put laws on the Federal books to fight the insanity....


>Meanwhile the Dems poisoning Black folks, shutting down
>schools where Black kids go, covering up/no indictments on the
>murders of Black people (kids!) by police...just to name a
>few.
>
>Good luck to Black people & the other marginalized folks b/c
>our options be trash af.

U saw what happened in Chicago and Cleveland right? The people rose up and voted those bullshit prosecutors out of office...The (BLACK) people said enough is enough...Rather then throwing our hands up in the air and screaming we fucked because both parties are trash, its better to flex our voting power in local elections like they did in the Midwest....

That's the best way to handle that situation...

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

  

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no_i_cant_dance
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Mon Apr-04-16 01:05 PM

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14. "Hmm, so you think expanding medicaid via Obamacare"
In response to Reply # 10


  

          

is going to play well w/ the viscerally racist anti President Obama Republican electorate in the general...interesting.

There is actually a lot that can be done by white Dem progressives + the DNC in local & state elections in southern/midwestern/flyover states to turn them shits purple/blue but that would require doing work & well...

Not to say that there arent actual people doing amazing work in these states (some you mentioned) & shout out to them...they need resources tho & where they at?? (somewhere in the northeast, & that allocation is part of the reason the DNC ain't ever gonna be shit).

I'm not saying give up (although I'm not judging if you poor + Black & sit it out this year)...I am literally wishing folks good luck b/c our choices are trash.

<<Mood...Poppy Okotcha in Look 1 at Ashish Fall 2016
________________________________________

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sa7KBq0q5bU

  

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Dr Claw
Member since Jun 25th 2003
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15. "*DING DING DING DING DING DING DING*"
In response to Reply # 14


  

          

>There is actually a lot that can be done by white Dem
>progressives + the DNC in local & state elections in
>southern/midwestern/flyover states to turn them shits
>purple/blue but that would require doing work & well...

like:

Obama actually had the right idea with this. and he did (in 2008) flip 2 of those states (NC and IN(!!!)).

but it shouldn't just be a presidential candidate. the statewide tickets should be putting in work to "steal" working class and poor whites away from the GOP.

the problem is: 'CISM, and a MASSIVE lack of effort.

not to mention cats like "Hair by Dolezal" Wasserman-Schultz taking Geld from the Predator Creditors and the neoliberals posing as liberals in the Democratic Party.

  

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no_i_cant_dance
Member since Apr 10th 2006
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Mon Apr-04-16 03:33 PM

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26. "Someone is getting paid 6 figures by the DNC to do the exact"
In response to Reply # 15


  

          

opposite of what you just said lol...despite the fact that what you said is true!

*fights air*

"Hair by Dolezal" tho?

http://38.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m28k5a3hl71qgzglo.gif

<<Mood...Poppy Okotcha in Look 1 at Ashish Fall 2016
________________________________________

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sa7KBq0q5bU

  

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murph71
Member since Sep 15th 2005
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Mon Apr-04-16 01:45 PM

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17. "RE: Hmm, so you think expanding medicaid via Obamacare"
In response to Reply # 14
Mon Apr-04-16 01:48 PM by murph71

          

>is going to play well w/ the viscerally racist anti President
>Obama Republican electorate in the general...interesting.



No...but it plays well to independents and moderates looking to vote for anyone BUT the crazies...But it doesn't matter. Because in a Republican primary the so called moderates are dead in the water because all u need is 38 to 40 percent to move on to a general election. That's what happens when u start out with 30 Republican candidates and damn near all of them are riding shotgun in the clown car...Oh, and Trump is driving...


>There is actually a lot that can be done by white Dem
>progressives + the DNC in local & state elections in
>southern/midwestern/flyover states to turn them shits
>purple/blue but that would require doing work & well...

It could def. be done...The problem is will the Democratic base come and vote in state and congressional elections...Even when the Dems had that sugar high following his wins the party had a tough time translating that into Congressional wins....


>Not to say that there arent actual people doing amazing work
>in these states (some you mentioned) & shout out to
>them...they need resources tho & where they at?? (somewhere in
>the northeast, & that allocation is part of the reason the DNC
>ain't ever gonna be shit).

I think those Midwestern local wins showed what happens when people become mobilized...It can def. happen...


>I'm not saying give up (although I'm not judging if you poor +
>Black & sit it out this year)...I am literally wishing folks
>good luck b/c our choices are trash.

Our choices have always been trash....What u r voting for is someone who would keep the "good" Obama stuff on the books while making sure the Supreme Court veers left...Politics is not magic...There are no magic wands...It takes hard ground work...

This is what I know: One party wants to get into the private lives of its citizens and turn the clock back on voting rights (Repugs) and the other side doesn't (Dems)...

Even with my beef with how the Democratic Party has its own issues, it's not enough for me to be on some A POX ON BOTH OF YOUR HOUSES shit...

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

  

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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
79560 posts
Mon Apr-04-16 12:20 PM

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9. "A+ avi"
In response to Reply # 0


          

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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18. "Cruz in dat black book "
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

http://radaronline.com/celebrity-news/cheating-ted-cruz-sex-scandal-dc-madam-died/

Notice the headline slight of hand though? Headline says explode. Artcile says the scandal is "set to explode wide-open"


Anyway, can't wait.


Also, Hamilton tickets go on sale in Oct of this year. I put it on my calender.

http://www.playbill.com/article/want-hamilton-tickets-whole-new-block-goes-on-sale-monday-com-370555

**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

  

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murph71
Member since Sep 15th 2005
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Mon Apr-04-16 02:02 PM

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19. "RE: Cruz in dat black book "
In response to Reply # 18
Mon Apr-04-16 02:03 PM by murph71

          

>http://radaronline.com/celebrity-news/cheating-ted-cruz-sex-scandal-dc-madam-died/
>
>Notice the headline slight of hand though? Headline says
>explode. Artcile says the scandal is "set to explode
>wide-open"

Gonna wait until the info comes out officially from the source itself...The National Enquirer has lost its mojo for uncovering that good, real dirt...Most of the reporters that worked on uncovering those other scandals (such as John Edwards) r no longer there....

Can't trust the Enquirer in 2016, especially since Trump is COOL with its publisher....

And even with all that, I WANT THAT CRUZ SHIT TO BE SO TRUE....lol

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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21. "I think there is a bigger question of whether sex scandals"
In response to Reply # 19


  

          

are as fatal as they once were.


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

  

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murph71
Member since Sep 15th 2005
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Mon Apr-04-16 03:32 PM

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25. "RE: I think there is a bigger question of whether sex scandals"
In response to Reply # 21


          

>are as fatal as they once were.


It depends on the candidate....If it turns out that the pious, straight arrow, finger pointing, Evangelical Ted Cruz was creeping on the side, HE IS FINISHED....

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

  

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denny
Member since Apr 11th 2008
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Mon Apr-04-16 05:14 PM

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39. "Agreed."
In response to Reply # 25


          

For Cruz specifically....this would be a death blow.

  

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Mynoriti
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33. "they are among the people who like Cruz"
In response to Reply # 21


  

          

who also happen to be the only people who will ever like Cruz

  

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stravinskian
Member since Feb 24th 2003
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Mon Apr-04-16 03:06 PM

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22. "Nobody noticed this Barney Frank interview in the other thread."
In response to Reply # 0


          


So I'll try again here.

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/interrogation/2016/03/barney_frank_is_not_impressed_by_bernie_sanders.html

  

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Vex_id
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23. "We did."
In response to Reply # 22


          

Just didn't care.

-->

  

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stravinskian
Member since Feb 24th 2003
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Mon Apr-04-16 03:39 PM

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28. "Not interested in a guy who actually HAS broken up banks."
In response to Reply # 23


          


http://www.ibtimes.com/big-bank-breakups-who-needs-bernie-sanders-when-youve-got-dodd-frank-2263896

  

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denny
Member since Apr 11th 2008
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Mon Apr-04-16 05:36 PM

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41. "It's just that we've heard this before."
In response to Reply # 28


          

He said similar things about Obama when he was up against Clinton in the primaries too.

Not to mention...it's not a shocker that an establishment, pro-Israeli democrat does not support Bernie.

  

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rob
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45. "he says similar things about obama several times a year. "
In response to Reply # 41


  

          

you could put together enough quotes to run a fake barney frank as a tea party candidate.

  

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Mansa Musa
Member since Feb 16th 2009
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Mon Apr-04-16 06:35 PM

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43. "Dodd-Frank is a joke"
In response to Reply # 28
Mon Apr-04-16 06:36 PM by Mansa Musa

          

The bill is full of holes punched by the 3,000 lobbyists that flooded Capitol Hill while it was being drawn up. Dodd-Frank places enormous discretionary power in the SEC, whose Chief of Staff is Buddy Donahue, a Goldman Sachs lawyer. The idea of him getting tough on Wall Street is like Dick Cheney cracking down on the oil industry.

The big banks are larger than ever, and they're selling products just as risky as the ones they sold in 2008.

Reuters reports:

"Thanks to the private-market loophole in the SEC’s Reg AB II, banks are selling a greater share of securitized debt than ever on private markets – largely off the radar of regulators and watchdogs."

http://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/usa-bankrules-weakening/

The NY Times reports:

"In the span of a month, the nation’s biggest banks and investment firms have twice won passage of measures to weaken regulations intended to help lessen the risk of another financial crisis, setting their sights on narrow, arcane provisions and greasing their efforts with a surge of lobbying and campaign contributions.

The continuing assault on the 2010 Dodd-Frank law has achieved remarkable success, especially compared with the repeated failures of opponents of another 2010 law, the Affordable Care Act."

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/14/business/economy/in-new-congress-wall-st-pushes-to-undermine-dodd-frank-reform.html?_r=0

Industry lobbyists have punched more holes in this thing than swiss cheese. Also see:

http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2010/07/5-ways-lobbyists-influenced-the-dodd-frank-bill/59137/

http://www.thenation.com/article/how-wall-street-defanged-dodd-frank/

  

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stravinskian
Member since Feb 24th 2003
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Tue Apr-05-16 10:04 AM

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53. "This is a bizarre argument."
In response to Reply # 43


          


>"In the span of a month, the nation’s biggest banks and
>investment firms have twice won passage of measures to weaken
>regulations intended to help lessen the risk of another
>financial crisis, setting their sights on narrow, arcane
>provisions and greasing their efforts with a surge of lobbying
>and campaign contributions.
>
>The continuing assault on the 2010 Dodd-Frank law has achieved
>remarkable success, especially compared with the repeated
>failures of opponents of another 2010 law, the Affordable Care
>Act."

The fact that the banks and the Republicans are still working so hard to weaken the law means that it really is getting in the way of their bottom line. This does not mean that we should be giving up on the law, it means we should be more effectively fighting those efforts to weaken it, and working to strengthen it further. New Glass-Steagall laws have very little, if anything, to do with that goal.

  

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Mansa Musa
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80. "It's not bizarre at all"
In response to Reply # 53


          

It was an ill-conceived law to begin with, and the aforementioned 3,000 lobbyists took advantage of those flaws. The ease with which it is being further diminished demonstrates how inadequate it was to begin with.

Also, are you saying Bill Clinton's banking deregulation was not harmful to the economy? Nobody is saying Glass-Steagall is the only answer, but are you denying that its repeal contributed to the subprime meltdown?

  

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murph71
Member since Sep 15th 2005
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27. "RE: Nobody noticed this Barney Frank interview in the other thread."
In response to Reply # 22


          

>
>So I'll try again here.
>
>http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/interrogation/2016/03/barney_frank_is_not_impressed_by_bernie_sanders.html

They saw it (He was little harsh on some of his points...A little too dismissive of Sanders for my taste...But his overall point was on the money)....That NYT piece on Bernie is eye opening as well....It reads like a post mortem for Sanders' campaign...

link: http://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/04/us/politics/bernie-sanders-hillary-clinton.html

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

  

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Doomdata21
Member since Jul 21st 2002
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Mon Apr-04-16 03:46 PM

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30. "I don't think Bernie's posing out here..."
In response to Reply # 22


  

          

This right here was damning to Barney's argument overall:

"I think he gets a pass from the media. Other than Glass-Steagall, what did he propose in 2009 and 2010 when he was a senator when we were dealing with this? The answer is nothing. Why haven’t you looked at his record?"

I looked it up and it doesn't hold water. Bernie had maaad bills proposed during that timeframe(41):

https://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/browse?sponsor=400357#congress=111

He had a several that addressed the financial crisis and finance in general. I respect Barney, but ionno about the shade he's throwing.

**Sig**
-Blackthought is the dopest emcee alive
-Uncle Sam and Santa Clause are good buddies.
-Be selfless and the world will be a better place.

  

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stravinskian
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31. "I'm looking hard for a single one of those bills..."
In response to Reply # 30


          


that doesn't say "but was not enacted." Haven't found one yet.

  

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Doomdata21
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32. "Dude was writing em' then..."
In response to Reply # 31


  

          

Is it his fault that cats wasn't on board? They might see his views a little better now.

**Sig**
-Blackthought is the dopest emcee alive
-Uncle Sam and Santa Clause are good buddies.
-Be selfless and the world will be a better place.

  

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stravinskian
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34. "Point is, it was a crisis. "
In response to Reply # 32


          


It wasn't enough just to be yelling about things. They needed to be getting things done. And Sanders wasn't really involved in getting things done.

At least one of the things that he was strongly pushing for, increased congressional oversight for the Fed, would have made the recovery a lot worse. Republicans would have killed monetary stimulus (pretty much the only kind of stimulus we got) over ridiculous fears of inflation.

  

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rob
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50. "barney frank was yelling at and pissing off both bush and obama in 2008"
In response to Reply # 34


  

          

and to listen to him talk about those years, he sounds just like bernie in that he believes that he had better ideas about how that should have gone down than what actually happened.

its hard to square his characterization of what barack *should* have done differently then with his unwillingness to challenge hillary on her connections and bias now.

  

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Mansa Musa
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Mon Apr-04-16 04:18 PM

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36. "1) 90 of his amendments passed; 2) Clinton's "successes"..."
In response to Reply # 31
Mon Apr-04-16 04:22 PM by Mansa Musa

          

...are laughable. The three bills of hers that became law are: S.3145, S.3613, and S.1241. These involved naming a highway, renaming a post office, and designating a statue. For Clinton, you have a bunch of lightweight symbolism, weighed against a series of utterly catastrophic foreign policy decisions.

By contrast, Sanders has used amendments to push for significant gains, like a $1.5 billion youth jobs program:

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/15/us/politics/bernie-sanders-amendments.html?_r=0

"Over one 12-year stretch in the House, Mr. Sanders passed more amendments by roll call vote than any other member of Congress. In the Senate, he secured money for dairy farmers and community health centers, blocked banks from hiring foreign workers and reined in the Federal Reserve, all through measures attached to larger bills."

  

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Doomdata21
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40. "Wicked..."
In response to Reply # 36


  

          

I see Bernie as the type that likes to... work work work work work © Rhianna lol

**Sig**
-Blackthought is the dopest emcee alive
-Uncle Sam and Santa Clause are good buddies.
-Be selfless and the world will be a better place.

  

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cgonz00cc
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46. "Ouch."
In response to Reply # 36


  

          

WHAT A TIME TO BE ALIVE

  

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Vex_id
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47. "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7nlsib_Yy24"
In response to Reply # 36


          

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7nlsib_Yy24

-->

  

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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
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Mon Apr-04-16 07:44 PM

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48. "lol, that ETHER"
In response to Reply # 36


          

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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stravinskian
Member since Feb 24th 2003
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Tue Apr-05-16 10:26 AM

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55. "Did you even read the article you posted?"
In response to Reply # 36


          


That "$1.5 billion youth jobs program" did not become law. It held up the immigration reform bill with a side measure on something, however justified it would have been, had very little to do with immigration reform, and in the process made it even harder for Republicans to vote for that immigration reform bill. Given the temperature of the House Republicans at the time, I can't really pretend that Bernie's amendment was one of the major things that killed it. But it obviously didn't help. This was an immigration reform bill that actually survived the Senate. This was the best hope that we had on the issue, and Bernie was tying irrelevant amendments to it. That's not a success, and he certainly can't claim to have passed a $1.5 billion youth jobs program.

I'll also note the line immediately after the one you quoted:

"But in his presidential campaign Mr. Sanders is trying to scale up those kinds of proposals as a national agenda, and there is little to draw from his small-ball legislative approach to suggest that he could succeed."

  

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Mansa Musa
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Tue Apr-05-16 04:19 PM

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81. "I said he "pushed for" the youth jobs program..."
In response to Reply # 55
Tue Apr-05-16 04:25 PM by Mansa Musa

          

...not that he passed it, so there is no mischaracterization there. The article does point to a lot of successes, and interestingly, it used to point to more. As Matt Taibbi shown, the initial edition of that article was very even-handed, but was later edited in a manner reminiscent of Pravda:

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/how-the-new-york-times-sandbagged-bernie-sanders-20160315

The fact is, Sanders has far more positive accomplishments than Clinton, and without her Cheney-esque negative attributes.

  

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stravinskian
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82. "LOL"
In response to Reply # 81


          


And yeah, I remember the story of that story. I wouldn't call it sandbagging, though, I'd call it contextualizing.

  

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Mansa Musa
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83. "What Taibbi shows is an editorial hatchet job"
In response to Reply # 82
Tue Apr-05-16 04:50 PM by Mansa Musa

          

I haven't seen them spin this hard since the run-up to the Iraq War.

They might as well bring back Judith Miller and her Chalabi tales.

  

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stravinskian
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84. "That's not how the public editor viewed it, from what I remember."
In response to Reply # 83


          


The view from the public editor, and most of the broader media narrative, was that the changes should have been made before the story was posted, but otherwise were perfectly valid.

  

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Mansa Musa
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Tue Apr-05-16 06:42 PM

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88. "I encourage everyone here to read the Taibbi piece"
In response to Reply # 84
Tue Apr-05-16 06:42 PM by Mansa Musa

          

Judge for yourself. I agree with Taibbi that "this stuff is pathetic."

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/how-the-new-york-times-sandbagged-bernie-sanders-20160315?page=3

At the time, I found the public editor's "nothing to see here" response predictably evasive. That remains the case.

  

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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
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Mon Apr-04-16 04:12 PM

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35. "lmao... of all the people in the world Barney Frank? Fannie Mae Frank?"
In response to Reply # 22


          

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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stravinskian
Member since Feb 24th 2003
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37. "Dodd-Frank Barney Frank,"
In response to Reply # 35


          


the guy who led the creation of the law that actually IS regulating and, yes, breaking up banks that pose systemic risk to the financial system.

Not sure what you're getting at on Fannie Mae. My guess is that your referring to a bizarre alternate history, literally popularized by Sarah Palin, where "Fannie and Freddy" caused the financial crisis. They didn't.

  

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murph71
Member since Sep 15th 2005
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Mon Apr-04-16 05:39 PM

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42. "RE: Dodd-Frank Barney Frank,"
In response to Reply # 37


          

>
>the guy who led the creation of the law that actually IS
>regulating and, yes, breaking up banks that pose systemic risk
>to the financial system.
>
>Not sure what you're getting at on Fannie Mae. My guess is
>that your referring to a bizarre alternate history, literally
>popularized by Sarah Palin, where "Fannie and Freddy" caused
>the financial crisis. They didn't.



lol....

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

  

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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
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49. "only thing Dodd Frank does is make money for lawyers"
In response to Reply # 37


          

it's a bloated mess.

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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stravinskian
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58. "When you ask Bernie how he'd legally break up a bank, "
In response to Reply # 49


          


he says he'd use the authority granted under Dodd-Frank.

  

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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
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62. "it's the only option we have right now"
In response to Reply # 58


          

and it would be a bloated mess.

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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stravinskian
Member since Feb 24th 2003
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63. "And how would we get another option?"
In response to Reply # 62


          


I saw an interview with Tad Devine a week or two ago, and when he was asked how Bernie would deal with Paul Ryan and his House majority, his response was literally that if Bernie won the general election, he wouldn't have to worry about Paul Ryan leading the majority, because Democrats would take back the House. I don't know if he was unaware of how ludicrous that idea is, statistically speaking, or if he was just trying to deflect. But the point remains: President Sanders will not be signing any new laws.

And just to get through the usual next stage of the discussion: no, President Clinton would not be signing new laws either. She'd be continuing, as long as necessary, the strategy that Obama has been forced into for the last six years. Her reform plans don't require us to pass anything 'better' than Dodd-Frank, and neither should Bernie's.

  

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Stadiq
Member since Dec 21st 2005
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Tue Apr-05-16 06:01 PM

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85. "^^^ And this is that Hil Magic that people are selling"
In response to Reply # 63


          


Once they admit that Hil won't get anything done either, they come up with the asinine logic that nothing should be better, anyway.

Really dog?

That sounds like a great platform. It will especially inspire young people.

Vote for Hilary, because nothing should be improved anyway! Yay!


Now I get it. You are all in on the Hil movement.

Murph is too, though he pretends he is being pragmatic.

But miss people with this bullsh!t.

Far as I'm concerned I'm pulling for Bernnie because I don't think he'll compromise on stuff like social safety nets.

Hilary, the political chameleon that ya'll champion for some odd reason (I'll never get this imaginary Obama part 2 you have cooked up), is sooo focused on her legacy I would not put it past her to NOT veto cuts.

If all Bernie does for four years is Vero dumba$$ austerity measures, I'm down. And most of us should be.

I don't need Hilary in there trying to one up Obama on compromise in order to cement her legacy.

  

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stravinskian
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86. "Calm down."
In response to Reply # 85
Tue Apr-05-16 06:32 PM by stravinskian

          

I never said she wouldn't get anything done, or that things wouldn't get any better. Barack Obama has shown that you can still make progressive change even without passing new laws. But there's a reason he couldn't get a public option, that he didn't even try for single payer, that free tuition even just for 2-year colleges never even made it past the stage of the SOTU address. Obama has understood the issues enough to be able to pick the battles that could be won.

As for energizing the youth vote, we put way too much effort into that already. If young people voted in substantial numbers, Bernie would not be as far behind as he is.

  

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Vex_id
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112. "You keep comparing Hillary Clinton to Obama"
In response to Reply # 86


          

She's nothing like Obama --

but keep up the wishful thinking.

-->

  

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stravinskian
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122. "That's not how Obama feels."
In response to Reply # 112


          

  

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rob
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44. "we read it. it's a barney frank hates everything piece with some bernie ..."
In response to Reply # 22


  

          

it's disingenuous because 1) barney had a whole decade more than bernie to work with and 2) the chief reason bernie didn't get much for his resume was that he wasn't closely aligned enough with the democrats. now that been trying to fix that and make connections (instead of easily peeling away progressives from the party), they're acting brand-new about it.

it's also pretty obvious that barney frank is jealous that bernie got to be a senator and he didn't.

he criticized hillary more sharply for the emails than bernie does and then he turns around (without prompting) and compares bernie to fucking mccarthy.

  

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stravinskian
Member since Feb 24th 2003
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52. "RE: we read it. it's a barney frank hates everything piece with some ber..."
In response to Reply # 44


          

>the chief reason bernie didn't
>get much for his resume was that he wasn't closely aligned
>enough with the democrats.

Yes.

>now that been trying to fix that
>and make connections (instead of easily peeling away
>progressives from the party), they're acting brand-new about
>it.

Wait, how is he trying to fix that? He claims to be leading a revolution.

>it's also pretty obvious that barney frank is jealous that
>bernie got to be a senator and he didn't.

Really? I have no idea where that's coming from.

>he criticized hillary more sharply for the emails than bernie
>does and then he turns around (without prompting) and compares
>bernie to fucking mccarthy.

He called it a McCarthyite tactic, and he's absolutely right. All this empty insinuation about speaking fees and about "what don't we know that she said to the banks?!", is very McCarthyite.

  

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Dr Claw
Member since Jun 25th 2003
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Tue Apr-05-16 10:48 AM

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60. "I think he's wrong about Scalia"
In response to Reply # 22


  

          

he was characterized as a homophobe AND a racist AND a sexist
All three. the left-leaning eulogies of dude made sure to point out his push-back on so-called "sodomy" laws and marriage equality as well as his racist and sexist opinions of law.

but other than that, I was cool about that.

  

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Mr. ManC
Member since Jan 26th 2009
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Tue Apr-05-16 09:28 AM

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51. "Debate in Brooklyn! Set for April 14th!"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

It's happening #nystateofmind

________________________________________________
R.I.P. Soulgyal <3
SUPA NERD LLC.
Knowledge Meets Nature
Musica Negra
#13irteen

  

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murph71
Member since Sep 15th 2005
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Tue Apr-05-16 10:14 AM

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54. "Bernie's interview transcript with NY Daily News Ed. Board (Swipe)"
In response to Reply # 0
Tue Apr-05-16 10:30 AM by murph71

          

Very interesting...Getting some critical chatter from economist and political types as well as foreign policy folks....The Bernie heads seem to be dapping him up though....Don't think it will matter to his supporters...Bernie like Trump has fueled their campaign shitting on that Establishment status quo and fighting for the little guy...Shaky on some of the issues though....

Highlights: When pressed on how he would break of the banks, Bernie Dog said that while he hasn't read any of the legal points on how he would actually do it, he believes he is up for the job.....

Daily News: Okay. Well, let's assume that you're correct on that point--that the banks have too much power and need to be disempowered. How do you go about doing it?

Sanders: How you go about doing it is having legislation passed, or giving the authority to the secretary of treasury to determine, under Dodd-Frank, that these banks are a danger to the economy over the problem of too-big-to-fail.

Daily News: So if you look forward, a year, maybe two years, right now you have... JPMorgan has 241,000 employees. About 20,000 of them in New York. $192 billion in net assets. What happens? What do you foresee? What is JPMorgan in year two of...

Sanders: What I foresee is a stronger national economy. And, in fact, a stronger economy in New York State, as well. What I foresee is a financial system which actually makes affordable loans to small and medium-size businesses. Does not live as an island onto themselves concerned about their own profits. And, in fact, creating incredibly complicated financial tools, which have led us into the worst economic recession in the modern history of the United States.

Daily News: I get that point. I'm just looking at the method because, actions have reactions, right? There are pluses and minuses. So, if you push here, you may get an unintended consequence that you don't understand. So, what I'm asking is, how can we understand? If you look at JPMorgan just as an example, or you can do Citibank, or Bank of America. What would it be? What would that institution be? Would there be a consumer bank? Where would the investing go?

Sanders: I'm not running JPMorgan Chase or Citibank.

Daily News: No. But you'd be breaking it up.

Sanders: That's right. And that is their decision as to what they want to do and how they want to reconfigure themselves. That's not my decision.

Daily News: Okay. You saw, I guess, what happened with Metropolitan Life. There was an attempt to bring them under the financial regulatory scheme, and the court said no. And what does that presage for your program?

Sanders: It's something I have not studied, honestly, the legal implications of that.
---

On Foreign policy---

Daily News: Okay, while we were sitting here, I double-checked the facts. It's the miracle of the iPhone. My recollection was correct. It was about 2,300, I believe, killed, and 10,000 wounded. President Obama has taken the authority for drone attacks away from the CIA and given it to the U.S. military. Some say that that has caused difficulties in zeroing in on terrorists, their ISIS leaders. Do you believe that he's got the right policy there?

Sanders: I don't know the answer to that. What I do know is that drones are a modern weapon. When used effectively, when taking out ISIS or terrorist leaders, that's pretty impressive. When bombing wedding parties of innocent people and killing dozens of them, that is, needless to say, not effective and enormously counterproductive. So whatever the mechanism, whoever is in control of that policy, it has to be refined so that we are killing the people we want to kill and not innocent collateral damage.

Daily News: Okay. American Special Forces recently killed a top ISIS commander, after they'd hoped to capture him. They felt, from what the news reports were, that they had no choice at that. What would you do with a captured ISIS commander?

Sanders: Imprison him.

Daily News: Where?

Sanders: And try to get as much information out of him. If the question leads us to Guantanamo...

Daily News: Well, no, separate and apart from Guantanamo, it could be there, it could be anywhere. Where would a President Sanders imprison, interrogate? What would you do?

Sanders: Actually I haven't thought about it a whole lot. I suppose, somewhere near the locale where that person was captured. The best location where that individual would be safely secured in a way that we can get information out of him.

Daily News: Would it be in the United States?

Sanders: Would it be in the United States? It could be, yeah.

Daily News: Yeah. I mean, some of these places are lawless lands. You've got Libya, you've got Yemen. If Special Forces...

Sanders: If the question is do I believe that terrorists could be safely imprisoned in the United States, the answer is yes.

Daily News: Yeah. Okay.


---

On whether citizens should have the right to sue gun manufacturer's

Daily News: There's a case currently waiting to be ruled on in Connecticut. The victims of the Sandy Hook massacre are looking to have the right to sue for damages the manufacturers of the weapons. Do you think that that is something that should be expanded?

Sanders: Do I think the victims of a crime with a gun should be able to sue the manufacturer, is that your question?

Daily News: Correct.

Sanders: No, I don't.

Daily News: Let me ask you. I know we're short on time. Two quick questions. Your website talks about...

Sanders: No, let me just...I'm sorry. In the same sense that if you're a gun dealer and you sell me a gun and I go out and I kill him …. Do I think that that gun dealer should be sued for selling me a legal product that he misused? But I do believe that gun manufacturers and gun dealers should be able to be sued when they should know that guns are going into the hands of wrong people. So if somebody walks in and says, "I'd like 10,000 rounds of ammunition," you know, well, you might be suspicious about that. So I think there are grounds for those suits, but not if you sell me a legal product. But you're really saying...

Daily News: Do you think that the discussion and debate about what defines a legal product, what should be a legal product, hence AR-15s, these automatic military-style weapons...which is the grounds of this suit at the moment is that this should have never been in the hands of the public.

Sanders: Well, you're looking at a guy...let's talk about guns for one second. Let’s set the record straight because of…unnamed candidates who have misrepresented my views. You're looking at a guy who has a D, what was it, D minus voting record from the NRA? Not exactly a lobbyist for the NRA, not exactly supporting them.

Link to full transcript: http://www.nydailynews.com/opinion/transcript-bernie-sanders-meets-news-editorial-board-article-1.2588306

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

  

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stravinskian
Member since Feb 24th 2003
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Tue Apr-05-16 10:36 AM

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56. "Ask him a substantive question and he turns into Donald Trump."
In response to Reply # 54


          


I'll admit, I said that just to make people mad. I can't really blame him on this, it's easy for a reporter to make a candidate sound like a dimwit in a context like this.

Still, I'm a little shocked that he didn't have a little more detailed knowledge about what it would mean to break up a bank, considering that that's really his only issue.

  

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murph71
Member since Sep 15th 2005
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Tue Apr-05-16 10:49 AM

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61. "RE: Ask him a substantive question and he turns into Donald Trump."
In response to Reply # 56


          

>
>I'll admit, I said that just to make people mad. I can't
>really blame him on this, it's easy for a reporter to make a
>candidate sound like a dimwit in a context like this.
>
>Still, I'm a little shocked that he didn't have a little more
>detailed knowledge about what it would mean to break up a
>bank, considering that that's really his only issue.

It's best to not go too hard on Bernie folks...Because I get where they r coming from...The system is indeed fucked up...It doesn't work for the little guys/girls...And people I know, even during the economic improvements, r struggling to pay the rent...Shit is real...

I will keep saying it. Trump is a misogynistic, racist buffoon who knows DICK about the issues. Bernie has actually done his political time as a mayor and Senator. So I def. have respect for dude. But his followers r much like Trump's followers...When u ask them about the wonky details they say I DON'T CARE....BERNIE/TRUMP IS FIGHTING FOR US!

So it's best to let this entire thing play out without the insults and such.....

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

  

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Doomdata21
Member since Jul 21st 2002
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Tue Apr-05-16 12:59 PM

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65. "Like large corporations haven't been broken up before..."
In response to Reply # 61


  

          

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breakup_of_the_Bell_System

(Standard Oil)
http://www.economist.com/node/347251

The banks have to figure it out... they'll survive and probably flourish in the long run.

**Sig**
-Blackthought is the dopest emcee alive
-Uncle Sam and Santa Clause are good buddies.
-Be selfless and the world will be a better place.

  

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murph71
Member since Sep 15th 2005
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Tue Apr-05-16 01:24 PM

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67. "RE: Like large corporations haven't been broken up before..."
In response to Reply # 65
Tue Apr-05-16 01:25 PM by murph71

          


U can't say u r going to break up anything and when asked about how and say, "I don't know the legal aspects of it, but I'm your man..." It is a side-eye worthy statement....

Again, I realize the policy, wonky side of the issue ain't exciting....But u have to at least have an answer even if people don;t agree with it...What I took away from that interview is Bernie hasn't thought everything through. But again, it won't matter to Bernie supporters.......They have already fell in love with the man beyond any specifics to his policies....In that way Bernie's supporters are def. similar to Trump's....Without the racist, misogynistic fuel....

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

  

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Doomdata21
Member since Jul 21st 2002
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Tue Apr-05-16 02:11 PM

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69. "RE: Like large corporations haven't been broken up before..."
In response to Reply # 67


  

          

Legally there is precedent, I can't act like like I'm personally ignorant of that fact. I think Bernie wasn't trying to get caught up in the "Gotcha" scenario a lot in the interview. The banks in the "break up" idea have the burden of figuring out what to do after... the onus isn't on him. I think that's what he's saying. As a supporter, I think the idea is sound and needed.

**Sig**
-Blackthought is the dopest emcee alive
-Uncle Sam and Santa Clause are good buddies.
-Be selfless and the world will be a better place.

  

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murph71
Member since Sep 15th 2005
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Tue Apr-05-16 02:22 PM

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71. "RE: Like large corporations haven't been broken up before..."
In response to Reply # 69


          

>Legally there is precedent, I can't act like like I'm
>personally ignorant of that fact. I think Bernie wasn't trying
>to get caught up in the "Gotcha" scenario a lot in the
>interview. The banks in the "break up" idea have the burden of
>figuring out what to do after... the onus isn't on him. I
>think that's what he's saying. As a supporter, I think the
>idea is sound and needed.

He came off very unprepared in that interview...Not just questioning over breaking up the banks...His foreign policy seems amateur hour as well...But again...It's important to drive home that we are dealing with a public that is distrustful of ALL institutions.....So these times r ripe for candidates like Bernie and Trump....People just want to hear that someone is listening to them....

But just because what Bernie says sounds good and inspirational doesn't mean those answers (or lack of) make much sense....

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

  

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stravinskian
Member since Feb 24th 2003
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Tue Apr-05-16 02:32 PM

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73. "The embarrassing part, I think,"
In response to Reply # 69


          


isn't that he didn't know what the banks would do after being broken up. Of course that's their job to figure out. And yes, that is kind of a stupid line of questioning.

The embarrassing thing is that when asked how he would get the authority to break them up in the first place, he had nothing. This is such a basic element of his movement, he should have had some kind of outline, even if it's implausible. The way he fudged around made it seem like he hadn't even considered the fact that someone would eventually ask the question.

This has always been my biggest beef with Sanders (apart from the fact that he's unelectable, which is a reason to vote against him but not a reason to dislike him). He just doesn't seem interested in details. All he seems to have is his religious fervor.

  

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rob
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Tue Apr-05-16 08:44 PM

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95. "i hear you, but all this was true of teddy roosevelt, and it got done th..."
In response to Reply # 73


  

          

we shouldn't let the wonks oversell us on the value of wonkishness. there's been a tendency (especially among democrats) for wonks to let technicalities become the focus and totally miss the practicalities (see healthcare roll out).

whoever becomes president is going to need to find ways to bring in different perspectives and ways of doing policy. i think the resistance to bernie, at it's heart, is that many of you believe bernie would not be able to work with the rest of the apparatus of government already in place AND carry out his political revolution.

many of us just feel like those changes NEED to happen, and we'd rather a somewhat messy reckoning now than business-as-usual and a worse disaster later. we also believe the gap between hillary's expertise and bernie's has been vastly overstated.

(though i'm many centrist trump supporters imagine him as some kind of teddy roosevelt too.)

  

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murph71
Member since Sep 15th 2005
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Wed Apr-06-16 07:50 AM

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114. "RE: i hear you, but all this was true of teddy roosevelt, and it got don..."
In response to Reply # 95


          



Come on Rob...If Clinton gave that same interview she would be laughed out of the room...

Again...I get it..Bernie's supporters care more about what the man represents than the details of how he will actually get things done...Hopefully, when Clinton wins the math game Bernie's team will back ol' girl against Trump/Cruz/Ryan.....

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

  

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SeV
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Tue Apr-05-16 10:37 AM

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57. "slow motion train wreck"
In response to Reply # 54


  

          

Sheesh



____________

Dallas Cavericks LETS GO!!

  

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murph71
Member since Sep 15th 2005
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Tue Apr-05-16 12:51 PM

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64. "RE: slow motion train wreck"
In response to Reply # 57


          



It took a rag like the Daily News to really dissect Bernie's platform....That's kind of crazy when u think about it....

But I wouldn't call it a train wreck...More like a sobering dose of reality. I wonder how all the political cable shows will react to this...

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

  

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Mynoriti
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Tue Apr-05-16 02:23 PM

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72. "Yeah, people keep blowing off the "he hasn't been scrutinzed" point"
In response to Reply # 54


  

          

or faced the republican attack machine, etc.. but it's legit. he's been very stump speechy with it, and he's not gonna be able to just ride that out. especially if he keeps gaining ground, scrutiny will increase. While he doesn't have to worry about dirt in his past the way Clinton does, he's gonna need to get more specific on the "how" part.

i think the calculator thing would hurt him far more than this though. Selling anyone on their taxes going up is damn near impossible.

  

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bentagain
Member since Mar 19th 2008
16595 posts
Sun Apr-10-16 11:25 AM

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309. "I didn't hear the there, there"
In response to Reply # 54
Sun Apr-10-16 11:28 AM by bentagain

  

          

just sat down and listened to the whole interview

as it's still in the news cycle almost a week later

scratches head

yeah, I didn't exactly hear the there, there

there were a couple of points where it felt like he was deferring as not to be overly critical of BHO*

the drone question, he obviously deferred as not to be directly critical of BHO

I also believe the quote was 'putting the horse before the cart'

IRT...what will JP Morgan Chase look like 2 years...

I guess the issue is with the actual language he used to answer this question

...IDK, I'm not running JP Morgan Chase...

IRT Israel...IDK, I'm not running for the president of Israel

IMO, I heard him answer the questions, I'm pretty confident in his plan and ideas on all of these issues TBH

are we expecting him to introduce specific legislation as a candidate?

*he reinforced BHO's plan on gun control

and I think the few gotcha moments that were spun out of this interview were a result of Bern not wanting to specifically criticize the current D POTUS

^the championing cry from the politics 101 crowd^

LOL@the rallying around HRC question <-- WTF?

$.02

I thought his FightFor15 answer was a great summation to alot of the questions in that interview.

---------------------------------------------------------------

If you can't understand it without an explanation

you can't understand it with an explanation

  

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ConcreteCharlie
Member since Nov 21st 2002
71387 posts
Tue Apr-05-16 10:41 AM

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59. "It's gonna be tough for Bernie in NY, real tough"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

I feel like he needs NY and later (June) CA to pull this off, and that's why he ain't gon make it.

And you will know MY JACKET IS GOLD when I lay my vengeance upon thee.

  

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PimpTrickGangstaClik
Member since Oct 06th 2005
15894 posts
Tue Apr-05-16 01:06 PM

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66. "This SNL skit perfectly captures every hardcore supporter of a candidate"
In response to Reply # 0


          

They focus on the Trump crazies, but it really applies to most everyone who actively supports (and posts about) either Trump, Cruz, Clinton, or Sanders
Especially at 3:35 lol.

"I don't know how you'll be able to defend this next thing"
"I'LL BE ABLE TO!"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r4q1L_JtMiI

_______________________________________

  

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Cenario
Member since Aug 24th 2005
59176 posts
Tue Apr-05-16 02:08 PM

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68. "When they ask a politician a question and they respond with"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

I was in (insert place) last week and met with....


I start tuning them out.


Nah, i'm lying, i probably wasn't listening in the first place.


WAsn't worth making my own post so i put it in the 1st political post i saw.

-The Knicks’ coaching search still includes a lone frontrunner, Kurt Rambis, whose qualifications for the position include a strong relationship with Jackson and a willingness to take the job.

  

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PimpTrickGangstaClik
Member since Oct 06th 2005
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Tue Apr-05-16 02:16 PM

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70. "I hate the "First of all...." tactic"
In response to Reply # 68


          

Interviewer asks a very specific question and the candidate completely changes the subject with a very tangentially related topic that he/she wants to talk about first.
Of course they never get back to the initial question

_______________________________________

  

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denny
Member since Apr 11th 2008
11281 posts
Tue Apr-05-16 02:33 PM

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74. "lol I've been working on this with my SO."
In response to Reply # 70


          

She's gotta an incredibly promising job interview coming up. She's memorized 5 talking points so now we're just focusing on her responding to random questions in a way that redirects to those points. We keep on referring to the GOP debates during practice/rehearsal.

  

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murph71
Member since Sep 15th 2005
23113 posts
Tue Apr-05-16 03:13 PM

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77. "RE: lol I've been working on this with my SO."
In response to Reply # 74


          

>She's gotta an incredibly promising job interview coming up.
>She's memorized 5 talking points so now we're just focusing on
>her responding to random questions in a way that redirects to
>those points. We keep on referring to the GOP debates during
>practice/rehearsal.


lol...

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

  

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denny
Member since Apr 11th 2008
11281 posts
Tue Apr-05-16 02:57 PM

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75. "So what's the expectation tonight for the dems in Wisconsin?"
In response to Reply # 0


          

I've kinda stopped following. From what I can tell....we're expecting something around Bernie 55 to Clinton 45. Am I off?

  

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stravinskian
Member since Feb 24th 2003
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Tue Apr-05-16 03:02 PM

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76. "Sounds about right."
In response to Reply # 75


          


Bernie will win, but probably not by near the margin he needs to start thinning the delegate gap, especially considering that this is about as Sandersy a state as there is in the remaining weeks.

  

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denny
Member since Apr 11th 2008
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Tue Apr-05-16 03:41 PM

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78. "Trump's 'Wall Plan' outlined in more detail"
In response to Reply # 0


          

lolololololol:

http://www.cnn.com/2016/04/05/politics/donald-trump-mexico-wall-pay/index.html

It's worse than I thought. To be honest...I thought he was playing coy with the whole 'Mexico will pay for the wall' thing. I thought for sure that he was courting the moron vote with that rhetoric and would eventually reveal that the trade deficit between the US and Mexico would pay for the wall. IE...the money gained from new trade agreements would pay for the wall.

Nope. lol. He's actually demanding a one-time payment for starters. Unbelievable.

  

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PimpTrickGangstaClik
Member since Oct 06th 2005
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Tue Apr-05-16 03:47 PM

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79. "Hearing Trump talk about trade deficits makes my head hurt"
In response to Reply # 78


          

He presents trade deficits like they are objectively bad and we need to balance them if we are to "make america great again"

He is a business man and I'm sure he has a team of economic advisers by now, so I assume he a least somewhat gets how international trade works.

_______________________________________

  

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Mynoriti
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Tue Apr-05-16 06:33 PM

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87. "he really has no idea how anything works"
In response to Reply # 78


  

          

  

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Mansa Musa
Member since Feb 16th 2009
382 posts
Tue Apr-05-16 06:51 PM

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89. "Since there are policy debates going on in this thread..."
In response to Reply # 0
Tue Apr-05-16 06:53 PM by Mansa Musa

          

...and we're talking about the candidates' records, here's more on Hillary's support for the criminal coup regime in Honduras:

http://www.thenation.com/article/how-hillary-clinton-militarized-us-policy-in-honduras/

How Hillary Clinton Militarized US Policy in Honduras

By Tim Shorrock

4/5/16 1:19 PM

In 2012, as Honduras descended into social and political chaos in the wake of a US-sanctioned military coup, the civilian aid arm of Hillary Clinton’s State Department spent over $26 million on a propaganda program aimed at encouraging anti-violence “alliances” between Honduran community groups and local police and security forces.

The program, called “Honduras Convive,” was designed by the US Agency for International Development (USAID) to reduce violent crimes in a country that had simultaneously become the murder capital of the world and a staging ground for one of the largest deployments of US Special Operations forces outside of the Middle East.

It was part of a larger US program to support the conservative government of Pepe Lobo, who came to power in 2009 after the Honduran military ousted the elected president, José Manuel Zelaya, in a coup that was widely condemned in Central America. In reality, critics say, the program was an attempt by the State Department to scrub the image of a country where security forces have a record of domestic repression that continues to the present day.

“This was all about erasing memories of the coup and the structural causes of violence,” says Adrienne Pine, an assistant professor of anthropology at American University who spent the 2013-14 school year teaching at the National Autonomous University of Honduras. “It’s related to the complete absence of participatory democracy in Honduras, in which the United States is deeply complicit.”

“With the coup, Clinton had a real opportunity to do the right thing and shift US policy to respect democratic processes,” added Alex Main, an expert on US policy in Central America at the Center for Economic and Policy Research, after being told of the program. “But she completely messed it up, and we’re seeing the consequences of it now.”

Honduras Convive (“Honduras Coexists”) was the brainchild of the Office of Transition Initiatives (OTI), a controversial unit of USAID that operates overseas much like the CIA did during the Cold War.

Sanctioned by Congress in 1994, OTI intervenes under the direction of the State Department, the Pentagon, and other security agencies in places like Afghanistan, Haiti, and Colombia to boost support for local governments backed by the United States. Sometimes, as it has in Cuba and Venezuela, its programs are directed at stirring opposition to leftist regimes. Clinton gave the office a major boost after she became Secretary of State; its programs are overseen by an under secretary of state as well as the top administrator of USAID.

OTI’s activities, the Congressional Research Service noted in a 2009 report, “are overtly political” and based on the idea that “timely and creative” US assistance can “tip the balance” toward outcomes “that advance U.S. foreign policy objectives.”

In Honduras, OTI seems to have followed the model it set in Iraq, where it sent some of the first US aid personnel after the 2003 invasion. At the time, CRS said, OTI’s strategy in Iraq was to convey “the tangible benefits of the regime change.”

The objective of Honduras Convive is spelled out on USAID’s website: “To disrupt the systems, perceptions and behaviors that support violence by building alliances between the communities and the state (especially the police and security forces).” A USAID official confirmed that the program is still ongoing, but played down US ties with Honduran security forces. Convive, he said, is “working in communities to build the capacity of civil society and government institutions, while strengthening community cohesion.” It was initiated “at the request of USAID and the broader U.S. Government due to high levels of violence in Honduras,” he added. “The beneficiaries of the Convive program are the Honduran people.” Much of the country’s violence is blamed on gangs and drug cartels and has led thousands of Hondurans to send their children north to flee the region.

But contractor documents obtained about the program show that it was based in part on communications strategies to win “hearts and minds” developed during the counterinsurgency phase of the US wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. Several OTI officials and contractors overseeing the project came to Honduras from Afghanistan, where they managed the civilian, nation-building side of the war. They included Miguel Reabold, OTI’s country representative in Honduras, who previously represented OTI in Afghanistan.

Part of the project was subcontracted to a company owned by counterinsurgency adviser David Kilcullen.

In addition, a key part of the project was subcontracted to a company owned by David Kilcullen, who was the senior counterinsurgency adviser to Army General David Petraeus in both Iraq and Afghanistan. Kilcullen’s research methodology, according to a contract proposal I obtained, was “built around a streamlined set of metrics” that provide a “manageable method for assessing counterinsurgency campaigns that can be replicated and customized in other insecure environments.” The contract was submitted to Reabold on October 16, 2012.


The USAID official confirmed that Kilcullen’s company, Caerus Associates, “received two grants totaling approximately $77,000 to assist USAID/OTI to assess licit and illicit networks in San Pedro Sula,” Honduras’s largest and most violent city. But, he added, “the Honduras Convive program is not a counterinsurgency program.”

In a lengthy e-mail, the official added that Convive “has drawn its lessons from best practices in violence prevention, community policing, and community cohesion from urban environments all over the world.” Since the program began, he insisted, violence has declined. He provided figures showing “marked reductions in homicides between 2013 and 2014 in some of the city’s most dangerous communities,” with declines of between 18 and 46 percent in several municipalities.

“USAID believes that homicides are decreasing due to a combination of factors, included among them a more cohesive community, represented by empowered leaders, working closely with Honduran government partners (including the police); international donors; and complementary USAID programs,” the official wrote in his e-mail.

But nowhere in the USAID documents does the word “coup” appear. The agency’s claims and statistics stand in stark contrast to the situation in Honduras, where civil society has been reeling from a wave of political violence and assassinations perpetuated by what many believe are state-sponsored death squads.

Even as Convive was being formulated in 2012, repression and violence had become a pressing issue for Hondurans. That January, UC-Santa Cruz historian Dana Frank described the carnage in The New York Times, reporting that “more than 300 people have been killed by state security forces since the coup, according to the leading human rights organization Cofadeh.” It appears to be just as bad in 2016.

A month ago, on March 3, the renowned environmental activist Berta Cáceres was murdered in her home by unknown gunmen. Two weeks later, Nelson Garcia, a member of the Civic Council of Popular and Indigenous Organizations of Honduras (COPINH), co-founded by Cáceres, was shot to death. Since then, thousand of Hondurans have protested what Democracy Now! has described as a “culture of repression and impunity linked to the Honduran government’s support for corporate interests.”

The killings have brought the US government’s programs in Honduras under increased scrutiny and drawn sharp criticism of Clinton’s covert support for the 2009 coup while she was Secretary of State.

In particular, opponents of Clinton have seized on her own admissions in her autobiography, Hard Choices, that she used her power as Secretary of State to deflect criticism of the coup and shift US backing to the new government. “We strategized on a plan to restore order in Honduras and ensure that free and fair elections could be held quickly and legitimately, which would render the question of Zelaya moot,” Clinton wrote.

In 2014, two years before her murder, Cáceres herself condemned Clinton’s statements about the coup, saying “this demonstrates the meddling of North Americans in our country.” Clinton, she added, “recognized that they didn’t permit Mel Zelaya’s return to the presidency…even though we warned this was going to be very dangerous and that it would permit a barbarity.”

The Clinton campaign did not respond to e-mails seeking comment on her department’s role in Honduras Convive or in shaping US policy toward Honduras. But in March, after Cáceres’s statements on Clinton were reported in The Nation, a campaign official told Latino USA that charges that the former Secretary of State supported the 2009 coup were “simply nonsense.” “Hillary Clinton engaged in active diplomacy that resolved a constitutional crisis and paved the way for legitimate democratic elections,” she said.

* * *

The players in Honduras Convive provide a glimpse into the privatized world of covert operations managed by USAID and OTI, and how they dovetail with broader US foreign-policy goals of supporting governments friendly to US economic and strategic interests. They also show how Hillary Clinton might manage US foreign policy as president.

Under Clinton’s 2010 Quadrennial Diplomacy and Development Review, OTI’s programs were expanded and strengthened, and the State Department pledged to “work much more closely” with the office. “We will build upon OTI’s business model of executing programming tailored to facilitate transition and promote stability in select crisis countries,” the review said. The overall plan for OTI was overseen by a Clinton deputy and the administrator of USAID. Most of its projects are contracted to a group of private aid companies in Washington.

Honduras Convive, for example, was outsourced to Creative Associates International (CAI), a company that has worked closely with USAID’s OTI on projects in Afghanistan, Yemen, and Libya. In 2010, CAI teamed up with OTI to run a clandestine operation in Cuba dubbed “Cuban Twitter,” as revealed in 2014 by the Associated Press. It was designed to use social media to spark anti-government unrest in that country.

A key piece of CAI’s project in Honduras, determining the social networks responsible for violence in the country’s largest city, was subcontracted to Caerus, Kilcullen’s company. It was founded in 2010 while Kilcullen was working as a top counterinsurgency adviser to US and NATO forces in Afghanistan. In addition to advising Petraeus, Kilcullen served during the Bush administration as a senior adviser on counterinsurgency to former Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice.

One of Kilcullen’s first contracts in Afghanistan, according to the Caerus documents I obtained, was to design and manage a $15 million USAID program measuring stability in Afghanistan—a key task of the counterinsurgency effort. Kilcullen also developed close ties to the Office of Transition Initiatives. OTI is “the closest thing we have now to an organizational structure specifically designed to deal with the environments of the last ten to twenty years,” Kilcullen said in a talk to the New America Foundation in 2013.

Like Kilcullen himself, the Caerus contractors who led the Honduras project had extensive experience with the wars in Afghanistan. Stacia George, Caerus’s “Team Leader” on the Honduras project, was employed at Caerus from 2012 to 2014, where one of her tasks was training “Department of Defense professionals on using development as a counterinsurgency tool in Afghanistan” (she is now deputy director of OTI). Another Caerus associate involved in the Honduras program, William Upshur, taught counterinsurgency tactics in Afghanistan for the Army’s 10th Mountain and 82nd Airborne divisions from 2010 to 2013 (he’s now an associate with intelligence contractor Booz Allen Hamilton).

The Caerus proposal to OTI, which I obtained, emphasizes the company’s extensive experience with counterinsurgency, surveillance, and data collection in Afghanistan as well as its ties to OTI. Many Caerus staffers “have worked directly for developing policy, implementing field programs, and managing program evaluations based on stabilization goals and objectives,” it says.

CAI, the prime contractor for Honduras Convive, deferred all questions about the project to USAID. But a CAI spokesperson said that “Creative doesn’t do counterinsurgency work and doesn’t have anybody on staff involved in counterinsurgency.”

* * *

“U.S. policies and assistance have often undermined prosperity, stability, and democracy in the region.” —Alex Main, NACLA Report
The AID/OTI program was part of a grand US plan to improve security in Central America by building closer ties with local military forces and using US troops to train their police. Honduras has become a litmus test for the plan.

Today, hundreds of US Special Forces and Navy SEALs are training Honduran units for civilian law enforcement. The plan is “driven by the hope that beefing up police operations will stabilize a small country closer to home,” The Wall Street Journal reported. The training is set to expand in the $1 billion “Alliance for Prosperity” program for the region that was unveiled in late January of 2015 by Vice President Joe Biden.

Main, the CEPR analyst, says Central Americans should greet the Biden plan with skepticism. “From the U.S.-backed dirty wars of the 1980s to the broken promises of economic development under the Central American Free Trade Agreement, the historical record shows that U.S. policies and assistance have often undermined prosperity, stability, and democracy in the region,” he wrote last year in NACLA Report on the Americas.

In Honduras, Main told me, the overriding US interest has been “keeping this government in power.” The “window dressing” of Honduras Convive, he added, has “been going on pretty much since the coup.” Many observers, including lawmakers, agree.

“I’ve been pretty much appalled by US policy with respect to Honduras.” —Lawrence Wilkerson, former adviser to Colin Powell
On March 16, 730 scholars organized by the Council on Hemispheric Affairs signed a letter urging the State Department to demand human rights accountability in its dealings with Honduras. “We are deeply concerned that the U.S. government condones and supports the current Honduran government by sending financial and technical support to strengthen the Honduran military and police, institutions that have been responsible for human rights violations since the coup d’état of 2009,” the letter stated.

That same week, 23 members of Congress and the AFL-CIO called on Secretary of State John Kerry to address the violence in Honduras directed against trade unionists and human rights defenders. And on March 14, activists with SOA Watch, which opposes the School of the Americas, where many Honduran and Central American military leaders have been trained, raised a banner in front of USAID’s headquarters in Washington reading “Stop Funding Murder in Honduras!”

“I’ve been pretty much appalled by US policy with respect to Honduras,” Lawrence Wilkerson, the former deputy to Secretary of State Colin Powell, told me when I brought OTI’s Honduras program to his attention in an interview last year. “If I could sum it up for what it’s been for so many years, that’s protecting all the criminals in power, basically for US commercial interests.”

  

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murph71
Member since Sep 15th 2005
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Tue Apr-05-16 07:12 PM

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90. "RE: Since there are policy debates going on in this thread..."
In response to Reply # 89
Tue Apr-05-16 07:16 PM by murph71

          


This is all well and good...But the question is simple...Can u talk about the issues and have u thought them through...?

Clinton def. has her issues (TPP being the biggest)...But when u ask her about the actual issues she doesn't say, "I'll get back to u..."

There are politicians running for office when asked about their campaign policies that u may not like their answers, but u can't question their actual knowledge of the issues...And more importantly they know how they will achieve their goals...

It's clear that Bernie is stumbling getting beyond his stomp speech....That Daily News interview was pretty illuminating......I'm not talking about someone making gaffes or a myriad of links to show what Bernie or Clinton stands for on the issue. I'm talking about someone who really hasn't thought his policies through...

And yet Bernie is in the same spot as Trump. His supporters don't care about the specifics because Bernie has a powerful message...

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

  

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Doomdata21
Member since Jul 21st 2002
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Tue Apr-05-16 08:37 PM

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93. "You keep harping on Sanders' supposed lack of plan..."
In response to Reply # 90


  

          

I would like to know what Hillary will do differently that will actually prevent the next economic collapse. They've already filled her coffers so that tells me that the fix is in and she is beholden.

Look, it does matter if there is or isn't a plan but when we know that Hillary's been "bought" already. I think that the guy who's on "our" dime will reflect our best interests. There is precedent for what Bernie proposes so I think it's viable and not a fantasy. A lot of people feel this way.

**Sig**
-Blackthought is the dopest emcee alive
-Uncle Sam and Santa Clause are good buddies.
-Be selfless and the world will be a better place.

  

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Mansa Musa
Member since Feb 16th 2009
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Tue Apr-05-16 09:24 PM

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99. "Exactly"
In response to Reply # 93


          

How is she going to crack down on the too-big-to-fail banks that are funding her campaign? By not taking any more of their money?

  

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murph71
Member since Sep 15th 2005
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Wed Apr-06-16 08:07 AM

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115. "RE: You keep harping on Sanders' supposed lack of plan..."
In response to Reply # 93


          

>I would like to know what Hillary will do differently that
>will actually prevent the next economic collapse. They've
>already filled her coffers so that tells me that the fix is in
>and she is beholden.

U guys keep playing that "beholden" card......But it's clear that Clinton is running as Obama 2.0 in terms of his policies...Her campaign message has been LET'S KEEP THIS TRAIN GOING AND MAKE SOME ECONOMIC TWEEKS....That message is not at all exciting...It's not BERNIE SEXY....It's some real sober minded, pragmatic shit....

Now if u think that Clinton is in the pocket of the big banks, cool...But its obvious that Bernie has not thought his ideas through beyond his stomp speeches....Dude came off as very unprepared and at times clueless in that NY Daily News interview....If the only thing u r clinging to is "Clinton is beholden to EVERYBODY...AT LEAST IT SEEMS THAT WAY!!!" That's not going to be enough....

Bernie doesn't know how he would go about fulfilling his biggest campaign promise....He doesn't know much about foreign policy....He dropped the ball on the gun issue....

But again, I realize this all means dick to u guys...Because u have been turned on by what Bernie represents rather than the meat and potatoes of how he would actually get things done....I'm not at all shocked by this. Like Trump, Bernie's supporters don't want to be bothered by the facts....So its best to just let this whole thing play out...


GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

  

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Mansa Musa
Member since Feb 16th 2009
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Tue Apr-05-16 08:54 PM

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96. "Specific like her comments on the Golman Sachs transcripts?"
In response to Reply # 90
Tue Apr-05-16 09:08 PM by Mansa Musa

          

Clinton's Wall Street reforms are meaningless, and not credible. She is proposing weak, cosmetic measures that her donors at the big banks know they will get around easily.

The attacks on Sanders over the NY Post interview are ridiculous. In addition to calling for reinstating Glass-Steagall (https://ia902702.us.archive.org/7/items/FullTextTheGlass-steagallActA.k.a.TheBankingActOf1933/1933_01248.pdf), he has already introduced the Too Big to Fail, Too Big to Exist bill to the senate (http://www.sanders.senate.gov/download/tbtfleg?inline=file). Obviously, if he gets the nomination, he will lay out a more detailed agenda moving forward--and it won't be brought to you by the NY Post.

Also, his comments weren't any more vague than Clinton's comments on fracking, or the TPP, or how she reconciles opposing both the Assad regime and ISIS. This is nothing more than a last-minute, desperate attempt by the Clinton team, which has just lost six primaries in a row, to deflect attention from her Wall Street ties.

  

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denny
Member since Apr 11th 2008
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Tue Apr-05-16 09:40 PM

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100. "lol"
In response to Reply # 96


          

But how oh how can we have 'investing' without Citibank and JP Morgan?!?!

It's troubling to me that Hillary supporters are using this to attack Bernie rather than criticizing the idea that 'too big to fail' institutions are somehow necessary. Troubling, not surprising.

  

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stravinskian
Member since Feb 24th 2003
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Tue Apr-05-16 11:04 PM

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108. "No Democrat EVER said &quot;too big to fail&quot; institutions are neces..."
In response to Reply # 100
Tue Apr-05-16 11:07 PM by stravinskian

          

How much of Bernie's public support is built on a sequence of strawman arguments?

It is a problem that Bernie doesn't have the foggiest idea how he would gather the legal authority to break up anything. It is a problem that he claims he'll put bankers in prison but he can't name a single law that was broken.

  

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Mansa Musa
Member since Feb 16th 2009
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Wed Apr-06-16 08:40 AM

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118. "Are you kidding?"
In response to Reply # 108
Wed Apr-06-16 08:45 AM by Mansa Musa

          

Here are hundreds of pages of evidence of securities fraud under SEC regulations, by all the major banks:

http://www.hsgac.senate.gov//imo/media/doc/Financial_Crisis/FinancialCrisisReport.pdf?attempt=2

Also see:

https://www.sec.gov/news/press/2010/2010-59.htm

All the mega-banks were neck deep in violations of securities laws, and fraudulent lending practices. When Sanders says the banks engaged in "illegal behavior," that's what he's referring to. Criticizing him for not going into the details of SEC regulations in his stump speeches and interviews is like charging Clinton with not going into the details of international law in her comments about the Iranian government. It's a complete red herring.

  

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denny
Member since Apr 11th 2008
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Wed Apr-06-16 10:26 AM

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128. "I'm talking about this:"
In response to Reply # 108
Wed Apr-06-16 10:27 AM by denny

          

Daily News: I get that point. I'm just looking at the method because, actions have reactions, right? There are pluses and minuses. So, if you push here, you may get an unintended consequence that you don't understand. So, what I'm asking is, how can we understand? If you look at JPMorgan just as an example, or you can do Citibank, or Bank of America. What would it be? What would that institution be? Would there be a consumer bank? Where would the investing go?



Bernie's right. It's not his job to rebuild and redesign the investment market. The government's job is to regulate the environment in which they function....not to provide suggestions as to how they should do business.

It's troubling (and telling) to me that Hillary supporters are more concerned with the perceived shortcomings of Bernie's answers rather than the questions themselves. Frankly, it's because she is going to do NOTHING about the underlying problems represented by those questions.

  

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murph71
Member since Sep 15th 2005
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Wed Apr-06-16 10:41 AM

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129. "RE: I'm talking about this:"
In response to Reply # 128


          


>Bernie's right. It's not his job to rebuild and redesign the
>investment market. The government's job is to regulate the
>environment in which they function....not to provide
>suggestions as to how they should do business.
>
>It's troubling (and telling) to me that Hillary supporters are
>more concerned with the perceived shortcomings of Bernie's
>answers rather than the questions themselves. Frankly, it's
>because she is going to do NOTHING about the underlying
>problems represented by those questions.

We r not talking about shortcomings Denny...We are talking about someone (Bernie) who struggled to answer a question that is essential to his entire campaign...

Again, if the answer is: CLINTON IS IN THE POCKETS OF WALL STREET SO SHE WILL TAKE IT EASY ON THE BANKS!!!! that's not good enough...Because that's not connected to the world of fact....It's a very strong opinion...It's an opinion that is worthy of discussion...It's opinion that can be debated...But we don't know if Hillary Clinton is on the take, unless u think she is the most shadiest politician to ever run for President...

I'm more concerned with how someone handles the big questions than anything else at this point.....If Clinton gave those same answers she would be fried on this board...lol

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

  

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Vex_id
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Tue Apr-05-16 08:22 PM

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91. "Bern God already projected as winner of Wisconsin."
In response to Reply # 0


          


-->

  

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PimpTrickGangstaClik
Member since Oct 06th 2005
15894 posts
Tue Apr-05-16 08:37 PM

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92. "We want the gold sucka. New York, we coming for you n**** (c) Booker T"
In response to Reply # 91


          

Two weeks ago, the Wisconsin polls looked a lot like the NY polls do now.
If Sanders can flip NY like this, it's gonna be trouble

_______________________________________

  

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stravinskian
Member since Feb 24th 2003
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Tue Apr-05-16 08:43 PM

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94. "LOL"
In response to Reply # 92


          

  

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Mansa Musa
Member since Feb 16th 2009
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Tue Apr-05-16 08:55 PM

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97. "^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^"
In response to Reply # 92


          

  

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murph71
Member since Sep 15th 2005
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Wed Apr-06-16 07:14 AM

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111. "Bernie was up on Hilldawg in Wisconsin...."
In response to Reply # 92


          




...in February....

Clinton was ready to take that L....

Again, it will be interesting to see what happens when Clinton wins NY...

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

  

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2.tears.in.a.bucket
Member since Sep 04th 2009
6185 posts
Tue Apr-05-16 09:17 PM

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98. "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yio5TT4PiVQ"
In response to Reply # 91


  

          


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yio5TT4PiVQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yio5TT4PiVQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yio5TT4PiVQ

♚♚♚♚

#BYLUG >>> https://goo.gl/1ooFp6

♚♚♚♚

screamin' mothafuck a 12 /
bitches ain't shit /
cops ain't neither /
they huntin' my people /

- i. rashad

♚♚♚♚

  

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CRichMonkey
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Tue Apr-05-16 10:00 PM

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101. "Bernie wins WI +8, needed to win +25. Nothing changes."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

HRC still has the math on her side and is going to coast to the win.

Nice story for Bernie though.


my avy: Deep in your heart, you know he's right: http://coreyrichardsonneedsajob.com/
my hustle: http://SupaSoulSounds.com

*RIP: John T. "220v" Richardson, Blessing Benson, and Dilla*

  

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Mansa Musa
Member since Feb 16th 2009
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Tue Apr-05-16 10:22 PM

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102. "That's ridiculous. He needs 57% of the remaining delegates"
In response to Reply # 101
Tue Apr-05-16 10:22 PM by Mansa Musa

          

Further wins with his Wisconsin margins would be enough to catch up with Clinton in pledged delegates. He'll probably win Wyoming on Saturday, and it's not at all impossible in New York. He's come up from similar poll numbers to win in numerous states. If he overtakes her in pledged delegates, it will become very hard for the superdelegates to stick with Clinton.

  

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CRichMonkey
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Tue Apr-05-16 10:29 PM

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103. "Do you understand how hard it is to get to 57%?"
In response to Reply # 102


  

          

You're thinking he just needs to win by +7% margins but no, my friend.

He needs to run up the score in PRIMARY states, not just caucus states to close that gap and he ain't winning by those kinds of margins. Short of holding Clinton to -30% in New York and California, he just doesn't stand a chance.


my avy: Deep in your heart, you know he's right: http://coreyrichardsonneedsajob.com/
my hustle: http://SupaSoulSounds.com

*RIP: John T. "220v" Richardson, Blessing Benson, and Dilla*

  

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Mansa Musa
Member since Feb 16th 2009
382 posts
Tue Apr-05-16 10:42 PM

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104. "Clinton folks are shifting the goal posts now"
In response to Reply # 103
Tue Apr-05-16 10:46 PM by Mansa Musa

          

Clinton just lost six primaries in a row, and now we're being told her loss is a victory because Sanders didn't get a landslide.

Saying Sanders needed to win +25 tonight to win the nomination is flat-out wrong. There are a lot of variables at play in the upcoming states.



  

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CRichMonkey
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Tue Apr-05-16 11:00 PM

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106. "He's down by 300+ delegates and 2.5million votes... "
In response to Reply # 104


  

          

And the delegates are all distributed proportionally. He has to win by huge margins to overcome the deficit. That's not moving the goal posts, it's telling you where you are on the field.

Yeah, he's won six in a row, but that hasn't erased his delegate or vote void. He has momentum, but he doesn't have the math.

How is Hillary Clinton not still winning when she's still got more delegates and votes?



my avy: Deep in your heart, you know he's right: http://coreyrichardsonneedsajob.com/
my hustle: http://SupaSoulSounds.com

*RIP: John T. "220v" Richardson, Blessing Benson, and Dilla*

  

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Mansa Musa
Member since Feb 16th 2009
382 posts
Tue Apr-05-16 11:11 PM

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109. "I'm critiquing your claims of inevitability"
In response to Reply # 106
Tue Apr-05-16 11:30 PM by Mansa Musa

          

I'm not saying she doesn't have the advantage, or that the statistical odds don't favor her. But you're falsely implying that the race is essentially over. It isn't, and that's good for American democracy and the possibility of progressive change in this country.

We still have the chance to nominate somebody who isn't disliked by most Americans, and who didn't support the Iraq war, using cluster bombs in civilian areas, the coup in Honduras, Israel's illegal settlements, the Panama free trade agreement (hello, Panama papers), a bankruptcy bill that screwed consumers, etc. We might not have to settle for someone who makes anti-Palestinian speeches at AIPAC. We might not have to support somebody who approved billions in arms sales to governments who donate to the Clinton Foundation. We might not have to support somebody who embodies everything that is rotten and corrupt about our political status quo.

  

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CRichMonkey
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Tue Apr-05-16 11:38 PM

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110. "Most probable is a better wager than maybe possible... "
In response to Reply # 109


  

          

But if you don't want to acknowledge that, then best of luck and please stay away from Las Vegas.


my avy: Deep in your heart, you know he's right: http://coreyrichardsonneedsajob.com/
my hustle: http://SupaSoulSounds.com

*RIP: John T. "220v" Richardson, Blessing Benson, and Dilla*

  

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Mansa Musa
Member since Feb 16th 2009
382 posts
Wed Apr-06-16 11:03 AM

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131. "If we have any chance of not nominating a neocon..."
In response to Reply # 110
Wed Apr-06-16 11:06 AM by Mansa Musa

          

...it's worth continuing to fight. If Clinton was even remotely progressive, I would feel differently. But she isn't.

  

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murph71
Member since Sep 15th 2005
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Wed Apr-06-16 07:46 AM

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113. "RE: Clinton folks are shifting the goal posts now"
In response to Reply # 104
Wed Apr-06-16 07:47 AM by murph71

          


No luv....They are using the numbers....Basically Sanders has to defeat Clinton by landslide numbers in the rest of the primaries to get the nomination....That's not going to happen....

I believe after beating Clinton in the Democrats' uber progressive Wisconsin stronghold win here are the numbers: Bernie 46 delegates/Clinton 43 delegates....Bernie has barely made a dent...

Hilldawg still leads with 252 delegates (not including super delegates).....And the big numbers are: Hillary Clinton: 1,748 (includes 469 super delegates) and Bernie Sanders: 1,058 (includes 31 super delegates)...

No goalpost moving....No conspiracies...Just the numbers, which r pretty sterile and not really that exciting....

Now I believe what u r most likely thinking is: When Clinton wins the delegate count heading to the convention Bernie should just say NOPE....I DON'T CARE ABOUT THAT. WE ARE GETTING THE BIGGER CROWDS...WE ARE TURNING ON MORE PASSIONATE VOTERS...WE WILL CONTEST!

That's an entirely different discussion. And trust me, Bernie would be committing political suicide if he were to go that route....We will see...

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

  

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stravinskian
Member since Feb 24th 2003
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Tue Apr-05-16 10:56 PM

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105. "He's missing that target, but that's even worse news for him than it sou..."
In response to Reply # 102


          


This state really was tailor made for him. For example, black voters only made up 9% of the electorate. That helped him a lot, considering that he still lost black voters nearly 3 to 1. Add to that the state's strong culture of political outsiders and extreme liberals (a culture that survives among Democratic primary voters even if the state as a whole has turned right), and this is the best major state that remains for him, demographically.

In other words, this is where he needed to EXCEED the target of a 14 to 16 point margin, not just reach it. There's no reason to expect him to do nearly this well in NY, PA, MD, NJ, CA.

Sorry, he's welcome to his victory party, but he's not gonna win.

  

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murph71
Member since Sep 15th 2005
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Wed Apr-06-16 09:08 AM

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120. "RE: That's ridiculous. He needs 57% of the remaining delegates"
In response to Reply # 102


          

>Further wins with his Wisconsin margins would be enough to
>catch up with Clinton in pledged delegates. He'll probably win
>Wyoming on Saturday, and it's not at all impossible in New
>York. He's come up from similar poll numbers to win in
>numerous states. If he overtakes her in pledged delegates, it
>will become very hard for the superdelegates to stick with
>Clinton.


Bernie is going to win the Wyoming caucus....And u know what? That won't factor into any of this.....

Remember when Hillary Clinton started beating Obama in primaries in the spring...She was blowing Obeezy out by like 20 to 30 points in some states (something Bernie won't do from here on out)....And Clinton still knew she couldn't catch up to Obama...

Again, if u want Bernie to keep fighting until the convention; if u want Bernie to contest, then that's entirely different discussion...

But, no, Clinton's super delegates will not be flocking to Bernie....Won't happen....

If u want Bernie to challenge Clinton at the convention, then hey, that's a whole other can of worms...

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

  

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Deebot
Member since Oct 21st 2004
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Wed Apr-06-16 08:52 AM

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119. "sadly you're right. Was hoping for at least 60/40"
In response to Reply # 101


          

  

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denny
Member since Apr 11th 2008
11281 posts
Wed Apr-06-16 01:52 PM

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135. "A 60/40 split would have resulted in 1 (possibly 2) more delegates than ..."
In response to Reply # 119
Wed Apr-06-16 01:57 PM by denny

          

Hardly a measuring stick.

He needed to win for momentum, fund-raising, media coverage and super-delegate support. Even a 70/30 split would have been inconsequential in terms of delegates. The only way to make actual ground is the delegate heavy states like cali and new york.

  

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Mansa Musa
Member since Feb 16th 2009
382 posts
Tue Apr-05-16 11:03 PM

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107. "Great interview with Michelle Alexander (video)"
In response to Reply # 0


          

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tFHNzlx24QM&feature=youtu.be

  

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PimpTrickGangstaClik
Member since Oct 06th 2005
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Wed Apr-06-16 05:49 PM

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152. "Candidate leanings/bias aside, this interview is fantastic"
In response to Reply # 107
Wed Apr-06-16 05:51 PM by PimpTrickGangstaClik

          

She is so clear in her positions and thr history and so passionate.
I need to check out her book

_______________________________________

  

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Mansa Musa
Member since Feb 16th 2009
382 posts
Wed Apr-06-16 09:17 PM

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159. "Word. I like that she doesn't endorse Bernie..."
In response to Reply # 152


          

...but says "I endorse the revolution," i.e., it's not about him as a candidate. It's about changing the way we fund elections, and either fundamentally restructuring the existing parties or creating new ones. Incremental reform isn't what we need.

  

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Mr. ManC
Member since Jan 26th 2009
11819 posts
Wed Apr-06-16 08:10 AM

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116. "been swamped at work but I will address"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

the various points made in here once I catch up (including that ridiculous interview piece).

Didn't want anybody to think I was pulling a Hillary and dodging the issues 8)

________________________________________________
R.I.P. Soulgyal <3
SUPA NERD LLC.
Knowledge Meets Nature
Musica Negra
#13irteen

  

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murph71
Member since Sep 15th 2005
23113 posts
Wed Apr-06-16 08:28 AM

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117. "9 things Bernie Sanders should’ve known about but didn’t (W.P. Swipe..."
In response to Reply # 0
Wed Apr-06-16 08:51 AM by murph71

          

So again....I don't think some of Bernie's well meaning, passionate supporters are getting it. There doesn't seem to be any meat on those bones....Bernie seems out of his depths when he is actually pushed to break down his platform...

I'm going to give my activist voter friends some advice....When someone tells u that Bernie's NY Daily News interview came very close to amateur hour it won't help u to respond that because u believe Clinton is in the pockets of the big banks that it doesn't matter what Sanders says....That's a go to Trump-supporter line, no? But the Washington Post spells it out better than I can....


---

Washington Post
9 things Bernie Sanders should’ve known about but didn’t in that Daily News interview

April 5 at 12:23 PM


My former colleagues on the New York Daily News editorial board sat down with Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.) on April 1 for an illuminating interview. The more I read the transcript, the more it became clear that the candidate for the Democratic presidential nomination doesn’t know much beyond his standard stump speech about breaking up the banks and how he had the good judgment to vote against the Iraq War in 2002.



Nine moments in the Sanders conversation left me agape. From his own plans for breaking up too-big-to-fail banks to how he would handle the Israeli-Palestinian conflict to dealing with the Islamic State, the man giving homegirl Hillary Clinton a run for her money seemed surprisingly out of his depth. The bold in the text is mine for emphasis.

1. Breaking up the banks

Daily News: Okay. Well, let’s assume that you’re correct on that point. How do you go about doing ?

Sanders: How you go about doing it is having legislation passed, or giving the authority to the secretary of treasury to determine, under Dodd-Frank, that these banks are a danger to the economy over the problem of too-big-to-fail.

Daily News: But do you think that the Fed, now, has that authority?

Sanders: Well, I don’t know if the Fed has it. But I think the administration can have it.

Daily News: How? How does a President turn to JPMorgan Chase, or have the Treasury turn to any of those banks and say, “Now you must do X, Y and Z?”

Sanders: Well, you do have authority under the Dodd-Frank legislation to do that, make that determination.

Daily News: You do, just by Federal Reserve fiat, you do?

Sanders: Yeah. Well, I believe you do.

2. The legal implications of breaking up a financial institution

Daily News: Well, it does depend on how you do it, I believe. And, I’m a little bit confused because just a few minutes ago you said the U.S. President would have authority to order…

Sanders: No, I did not say we would order. I did not say that we would order. The President is not a dictator.

Daily News: Okay. You would then leave it to JPMorgan Chase or the others to figure out how to break it, themselves up. I’m not quite…

Sanders: You would determine is that, if a bank is too big to fail, it is too big to exist. And then you have the secretary of treasury and some people who know a lot about this, making that determination. If the determination is that Goldman Sachs or JPMorgan Chase is too big to fail, yes, they will be broken up.

Daily News: Okay. You saw, I guess, what happened with Metropolitan Life. There was an attempt to bring them under the financial regulatory scheme, and the court said no. And what does that presage for your program?

Sanders: It’s something I have not studied, honestly, the legal implications of that.

3. Prosecuting Wall Street executives for the financial collapse of 2008

Daily News: Okay. But do you have a sense that there is a particular statute or statutes that a prosecutor could have or should have invoked to bring indictments?

Sanders: I suspect that there are. Yes.

Daily News: You believe that? But do you know?

Sanders: I believe that that is the case. Do I have them in front of me, now, legal statutes? No, I don’t. But if I would…yeah, that’s what I believe, yes. When a company pays a $5 billion fine for doing something that’s illegal, yeah, I think we can bring charges against the executives.

Daily News: I’m only pressing because you’ve made it such a central part of your campaign. And I wanted to know what the mechanism would be to accomplish it.

Considering this is the core of his campaign message, Sanders should know all of the points covered in 1, 2 and 3 inside and out. He should have been able to lecture his interrogators into a stupor with his detailed knowledge. Instead, Sanders sounded slightly better than a college student caught off-guard by a surprise test in his best class just before finals.

4. Handling negotiations between Israelis and Palestinians over settlements

Daily News: I was talking about something different, though. Expanding settlements is one thing; coming into office as a President who said as a baseline that you want Israel to pull back settlements, that changes the dynamic in the negotiations, and I’m wondering how far and what you want Israel to do in terms of pulling back.

Sanders: Well, again, you’re asking me a very fair question, and if I had some paper in front of me, I would give you a better answer. But I think if the expansion was illegal, moving into territory that was not their territory, I think withdrawal from those territories is appropriate.

Daily News: And who makes the call about illegality, in your mind?

Sanders: Well, I think that’s based on previous treaties and ideas. I happen to think that those expansions were illegal.

Daily News: Okay, so if we were to find Israeli settlements, so-called settlements, in places that has been designated to be illegal, you would expect Israel to be pulling them back?

Sanders: Israel will make their own decisions. They are a government, an independent nation. But to the degree that they want us to have a positive relationship, I think they’re going to have to improve their relationship with the Palestinians.

5. Looking back at the 2014 conflict between Israelis and Palestinians

Daily News: And I’m going to look at 2014, which was the latest conflict. What should Israel have done instead?

Sanders: You’re asking me now to make not only decisions for the Israeli government but for the Israeli military, and I don’t quite think I’m qualified to make decisions.

6. Israel and war crimes

Daily News: Do you support the Palestinian leadership’s attempt to use the International Criminal Court to litigate some of these issues to establish that, in their view, Israel had committed essentially war crimes?

Sanders: No.

Daily News: Why not?

Sanders: Why not?

Daily News: Why not, why it…

Sanders: Look, why don’t I support a million things in the world? I’m just telling you that I happen to believe…

The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is one of the most vexing and vital for the occupant of the Oval Office. It bedeviled Presidents Bill Clinton and George W. Bush. And as we learned from Jeffrey Goldberg’s excellent piece on “The Obama Doctrine,” our current president has given up. Solve that foreign policy Rubik’s Cube and you might unleash broader peace on the Middle East. But it requires being able to answer 4, 5 and 6 with finesse, which can’t be done if you “don’t quite think I’m qualified to make decisions.”

7. Dealing with the Islamic State

Daily News: Okay, while we were sitting here, I double-checked the facts. It’s the miracle of the iPhone. My recollection was correct. It was about 2,300, I believe, killed, and 10,000 wounded. President Obama has taken the authority for drone attacks away from the CIA and given it to the U.S. military. Some say that that has caused difficulties in zeroing in on terrorists, their ISIS leaders. Do you believe that he’s got the right policy there?

Sanders: I don’t know the answer to that. What I do know is that drones are a modern weapon. When used effectively, when taking out ISIS or terrorist leaders, that’s pretty impressive. When bombing wedding parties of innocent people and killing dozens of them, that is, needless to say, not effective and enormously counterproductive. So whatever the mechanism, whoever is in control of that policy, it has to be refined so that we are killing the people we want to kill and not innocent collateral damage.

Paris was attacked. Istanbul was attacked. Brussels was attacked and is basically a bedroom community for terrorists seeking to destabilize Europe. And several African nations have been terrorized by Islamic State affiliates. That Sanders “ know the answer” to whether the president has the right policy against the Islamic State is unacceptable.

8. Disposition of captured ISIS commanders

Daily News: Okay. American Special Forces recently killed a top ISIS commander, after they’d hoped to capture him. They felt, from what the news reports were, that they had no choice at that. What would you do with a captured ISIS commander?

Sanders: Imprison him.

Daily News: Where?

Sanders: And try to get as much information out of him. If the question leads us to Guantanamo…

Daily News: Well, no, separate and apart from Guantanamo, it could be there, it could be anywhere. Where would a President Sanders imprison, interrogate? What would you do?

Sanders:Actually I haven’t thought about it a whole lot. I suppose, somewhere near the locale where that person was captured. The best location where that individual would be safely secured in a way that we can get information out of him.

“Actually I haven’t thought about it a whole lot”?! C’mon, man! What makes Sanders’s responses to all of these foreign policy questions even more troubling is that he spoke with more clarity and certainty on foreign policy during a speech on March 21.

9. Riding the subway

Daily News: I know you’ve got to go in a second. When was the last time you rode the subway? Are you gonna a campaign in the subway?

Sanders: Actually we rode the subway, Mike, when we were here? About a year ago? But I know how to ride the subways. I’ve been on them once or twice.

Daily News: Do you really? Do you really? How do you ride the subway today?

Sanders: What do you mean, “How do you ride the subway?”

Daily News: How do you get on the subway today?

Sanders: You get a token and you get in.

Daily News: Wrong.

Sanders: You jump over the turnstile.

Daily News: We would like our photographer to be there when you jump over the turnstile.

In the grand scheme of things, this isn’t a big deal. This is the Big Apple equivalent of asking a candidate what the price of a gallon of milk is. The answer is supposed to show whether you’re in touch with everyday Americans. Sanders’s answer simply reveals that he hasn’t been on a New York City subway with any regularity since 2003, when the MetroCard took over. As for jumping the turnstile? There’s a reason the Daily News would love a photographer to capture Sanders jumping over one. The attempt would be priceless.

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

  

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Mansa Musa
Member since Feb 16th 2009
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Wed Apr-06-16 09:34 AM

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121. "Translation: Jeff Bezos (worth $47 billion) hates Bernie Sanders"
In response to Reply # 117
Wed Apr-06-16 09:50 AM by Mansa Musa

          

...and since he bought the Washington Post, they have run hundreds of anti-Sanders articles. This is just one more in an endless deluge of hit pieces. In 16 hours alone, they blanketed their web site with 16 anti-Sanders pieces:

http://www.fitsnews.com/2016/03/10/the-washington-posts-war-on-bernie-sanders/

http://www.democracynow.org/2016/3/11/headlines/washington_post_runs_16_anti_sanders_ads_in_16_hours

http://fair.org/home/shocker-wapo-investigates-itself-for-anti-sanders-bias-finds-there-was-none/

In all but name, www.washingtonpost.com is a Clinton campaign web site.

  

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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
79560 posts
Wed Apr-06-16 09:44 AM

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123. "lol"
In response to Reply # 121


          

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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Doomdata21
Member since Jul 21st 2002
1258 posts
Wed Apr-06-16 09:51 AM

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125. "This too is true lol"
In response to Reply # 121


  

          

Where is the hard hitting interview where they ask Clinton about her policies and how she will get things done if she becomes president?

I looked at a couple of interviews this morning and they're almost full on fluff pieces. Evidence below:

http://www.politico.com/story/2016/04/hillary-clinton-has-had-enough-of-bernie-sanders-221495

**Sig**
-Blackthought is the dopest emcee alive
-Uncle Sam and Santa Clause are good buddies.
-Be selfless and the world will be a better place.

  

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murph71
Member since Sep 15th 2005
23113 posts
Wed Apr-06-16 10:17 AM

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126. "RE: Translation: Jeff Bezos (worth $47 billion) hates Bernie Sanders"
In response to Reply # 121
Wed Apr-06-16 10:30 AM by murph71

          

So does the The Atlantic hate Bernie too? (The same Atlantic that has no love for Clinton, BTW)....Let's go to the tape....(Again, just the facts of what came out of Bernie's mouth...Not anything else...)


The Atlantic

How Much Does Bernie Sanders Know About Policy?

Bottom line excerpt:

"Could (Bernie) describe the pullback of Israeli settlements in the West Bank he has encouraged? No: “I'm not going to run the Israeli government. I've got enough problems trying to be a United States senator or maybe President of the United States.”

A moment later, he was asked why he didn’t support Palestinians using the International Criminal Court to try to prosecute Israeli leaders. “Look, why don't I support a million things in the world? I'm just telling you that I happen to believe,” the exasperated senator replied.

That’s just the problem, though. It’s important for leaders to know what they believe in, and Sanders has been unusually consistent and forthright about that. But Sanders isn’t running for chief ideologue—he’s running for chief executive, and so it’s also important for him to know what policies he would use to turn those beliefs into practice."

link: http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/04/bernie-sanderss-rough-ride-with-the-daily-news/476919/

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

  

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Mansa Musa
Member since Feb 16th 2009
382 posts
Wed Apr-06-16 10:58 AM

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130. "Clinton has been criticized on exactly the same grounds"
In response to Reply # 126
Wed Apr-06-16 11:01 AM by Mansa Musa

          

She has recently been described as "evasive," "vague," and having a "rash of gaffes" in interviews:

https://www.bostonglobe.com/news/nation/2016/03/15/hillary-clinton-rash-gaffes-frontrunner-stumbles-over-aids-coal-miners-and-libya/yBfrCnZ1ymccqxSWYk2iOM/story.html

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/02/hillary-clintons-evasive-position-on-nsa-spying/386024/

http://freebeacon.com/politics/hillary-clinton-struggles-message/

https://www.bostonglobe.com/news/nation/2015/08/11/clinton-criticized-for-being-too-vague-policy/1zgxrZK1tUf9m5JYGCQU3J/story.html

What distinguishes the Washington Post from most other news outlets is that they have been CONSISTENTLY (and stridently) anti-Sanders, in article after article. And, yes, that does reflect Jeff Bezos's "hands-on" approach as owner of the Washington Post:

http://www.wsj.com/articles/bezos-takes-hands-on-role-at-washington-post-1450658089

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-12-20/bezos-s-behind-the-scenes-role-in-washington-post-s-web-growth

  

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SeV
Charter member
50209 posts
Wed Apr-06-16 02:00 PM

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138. "if u ain't do this to anybody that challenges Bernie"
In response to Reply # 121


  

          

U would have much more credence


A week ago u was digging up post on here to say GD was in the bag for Hillary

Give it a rest already.


____________

Dallas Cavericks LETS GO!!

  

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Mansa Musa
Member since Feb 16th 2009
382 posts
Wed Apr-06-16 04:14 PM

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147. "I've agreed with criticisms of Bernie from Margaret Kimberley, Glen Ford"
In response to Reply # 138
Wed Apr-06-16 04:37 PM by Mansa Musa

          

...Bruce Dixon, and others. I have cited their work multiple times on this board. See:

http://board.okayplayer.com/okp.php?az=show_topic&forum=4&topic_id=12970063&mesg_id=12970063&listing_type=search (Reply 257)

http://board.okayplayer.com/okp.php?az=show_topic&forum=4&topic_id=12840599&mesg_id=12840599&listing_type=search (Reply 176)

So, it's demonstrably not true that I've criticized "anyone that challenges Bernie." I've agreed with their challenges to Bernie on drones, Palestine, fighter jets, backing Saudi Arabia, etc. I also doubt any of them will vote for him. The difference between them and the Washington Post, though, is that they're NOT pro-Clinton. They are criticizing Sanders from a radical perspective, and they're not defending any of Clinton's bullshit.

So, great, criticize Bernie from the left. But if you're doing it in the way the Washington Post is, that's completely different. Jeff Bezos and his economic interests should absolutely be brought into the conversation. And if we're talking about the Daily Beast, yes, the connection to Chelsea Clinton matters as well.

As for pro-Clinton posters, I've tried very hard to focus on the substance of their arguments in these threads. I respect them, even if what we say about the candidates sometimes gets nasty. I've never said "GD is in the bag for Hillary," which is why you won't find any example of me saying that, anywhere. At most, I have agreed with a poster who said "the board is showing its age," which isn't the same thing. The point is that the overall board had a more radical tone circa 2005. But there are still a lot of posters who are willing to criticize capitalism, the military-industrial complex, etc., which is why I would never write off the board like you're claiming. End of story.

  

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Doomdata21
Member since Jul 21st 2002
1258 posts
Wed Apr-06-16 09:47 AM

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124. "We know his stances from the interview..."
In response to Reply # 117


  

          

I think asking him to comment on what Obama's administration and other governments are doing is fair game but he's also not obligated to answer explicitly if it's not entirely fleshed out yet. He did reiterate his particular stances and what he would move us towards which I think is fair as well.

It's ok to respond with "I don't know" if pressed to give fine details AT THIS STAGE in my book. I think the knowledge is out there as far as how to go about "breaking up the big banks", here are some examples from his site (since I'm not sure if you've been) that outline some things he's done thus far.

"These institutions have acquired too much economic and political power, endangering our economy and our political process.

KEY ACTIONS
• Introduced the “Too Big to Fail, Too Big to Exist Act,” which would break up the big banks and prohibit any too-big-to-fail institutions from accessing the Federal Reserve’s discount facilities or using insured deposits for risky activities.

• Led the fight in 1999 defending Glass-Steagall provisions which prevented banks (especially “too big to fail” ones) from gambling with customers’ money, and currently is a co-sponsor of the Elizabeth Warren/John McCain bill to reinstate those provisions.

• Has proposed a financial transaction tax which will reduce risky and unproductive high-speed trading and other forms of Wall Street speculation; proceeds would be used to provide debt-free public college education.

• Is co-sponsoring Sen. Tammy Baldwin’s bill to end Wall Street’s practice of paying big bonuses to bank executives who take senior-level government jobs.

• Introduced a tax on Wall Street speculation to make public colleges and universities tuition-free

• Supports capping credit card interest rates at 15%.

• Sponsored an amendment calling for an audit the Federal Reserve. The audit found that far more had been spent in the Wall Street bailout than previously disclosed, and that considerable funds had been spent to bail out foreign corporations.

• Warned about the risks of deregulation eight years before the fiscal crisis of 2008.

• Has proposed limiting the ability of bankers to get rich from taxpayer bailouts of their institutions"

**Sig**
-Blackthought is the dopest emcee alive
-Uncle Sam and Santa Clause are good buddies.
-Be selfless and the world will be a better place.

  

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murph71
Member since Sep 15th 2005
23113 posts
Wed Apr-06-16 10:20 AM

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127. "RE: We know his stances from the interview..."
In response to Reply # 124
Wed Apr-06-16 10:32 AM by murph71

          

How will he do it??????...That's the only question that matters....

If u (and more importantly Bernie himself) doesn't have the answers to that then it doesn't matter how pure the man's heart is...Bernie simply showed poor command of his own platform....U can downplay it anyway u want it....Dude just gave everyone (not just Clinton...The Repugs, beyond Trump, r looking at this like, GREAT... ) an ad that cuts through the heart of why Bernie may be the Emperor that wears no clothes...

Again...If u don't care about the details then let it be known....At least Trump's supporters are putting it out there....

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

  

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Doomdata21
Member since Jul 21st 2002
1258 posts
Wed Apr-06-16 11:17 AM

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132. "I think I care about the details on them both..."
In response to Reply # 127


  

          

Hillary's corruptibility factor is muuuuch higher. Policy can be worked out... ideas drive that and the ideas are sound. Do you not think that what Bernie is proposing isn't possible? If so, why not?

Hillary's agenda may be possible but for a lot of people these half measures she proposes don't go far enough and in some cases such as foreign policy(war-mongering) they are a step backwards. I think we can do better than that.

**Sig**
-Blackthought is the dopest emcee alive
-Uncle Sam and Santa Clause are good buddies.
-Be selfless and the world will be a better place.

  

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Doomdata21
Member since Jul 21st 2002
1258 posts
Wed Apr-06-16 03:53 PM

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145. "More reading for Murph/Strav (breaking up banks part)"
In response to Reply # 117


  

          

http://rooseveltinstitute.org/sanders-ending-tbtf/

Let’s Dispel Once and for All With This Fiction that Sanders Doesn’t Know How to Break Up Banks

By Mike Konczal | 04.05.16

Bernie Sanders gave some fairly normal answers on financial reform to the New York Daily News editorial board. Someone sent it to me, and as I read it I thought “yes, these are answers I’d expect for how Sanders approaches financial reform.”

You wouldn’t know that from the coverage of it, which has argued that the answers were an embarrassing failure. Caitlin Cruz at TPM argues that Sanders “struggles to explain how he would break up the banks” and that’s relatively kind. Chris Cillizza says it was “pretty close to a disaster” and David Graham says the answers on his core financial focus is “tentative, unprepared, or unaware.” Tina Nguyen at Vanity Fair writes that Sanders “admits he isn’t sure how to break up the big banks.”

This is not correct. Sanders has a clear path on how he wants to break up the banks which he described. Breaking up the banks doesn’t require, or even benefit from, describing the specifics on how the banks would end up, neither for his plans or the baby steps Dodd-Frank has already taken.

Generally, I believe Sanders would benefit from taking the important points Clinton has made in expanding how to tackle the financial sector as a whole. But bad arguments are bad arguments, and the arguments against Sanders here are bad.

Sanders has a two-part approach to breaking up the banks and knows who can do it
There are three ways we can break up the banks.

Pass a law putting some sort of cap on the size of the balance sheet of financial companies, usually non-deposit liabilities. Caps, such as Senator Brown’s SAFE Banking Act, are generally proposed around 2 or 3 percent of GDP.
Have the council of regulators known as the Financial Stability Oversight Council (FSOC), on which the Treasury Secretary serves as chair, declare the largest firms to be too risky and must be broken up (Section 121).
Have the Federal Reserve, along with the FDIC, determine that the “living wills” of the biggest banks, which are plans on how they can fail without bringing down the economy, are not credible, and thus must be broken up (Section 165d).
The second two work through Dodd-Frank, the first would work through Congress.

Here’s the first exchange that people are citing:

Sanders: How you go about doing it is having legislation passed, or giving the authority to the secretary of treasury to determine, under Dodd-Frank, that these banks are a danger to the economy over the problem of too-big-to-fail.

Daily News: But do you think that the Fed, now, has that authority?

Sanders: Well, I don’t know if the Fed has it. But I think the administration can have it.

Sanders is clearly saying that he wants to push on the first (“legislation passed”) and second (“secretary of treasury to determine”), two projects you can do at the same time. He’s emphasized Section 121 in the past. I wish he’d emphasize the third approach more, as that’s where the fight currently is, but his answer is fine.

If anything, Sanders is too wonky. The Daily News and commentators on this, I think, mean regulators as a whole, instead of the specific powers of the Federal Reserve itself, when they ask if the Fed has that authority already. Does the Fed have that authority? The Federal Reserve does have an extensive set of powers under the second and third approach, but it isn’t unilateral, but it also isn’t clear how much they could push if they truly wanted it. Sanders is correct to say it’s unclear how far the Federal Reserve can go but it is clear, however, that the Treasury secretary can lead FSOC to it.

The real problem with Sanders’ language on this topic is his one year promise. You’d need to replace a lot of regulators to try this approach, and that takes time, and even then it’s a hard slog. But it also seems like an area where the campaign rhetoric is meant to diverge from the policy analysis.

A feature of Breaking Up the Banks is to let them choose the most efficient route
A lot of people are attacking Sanders for not saying how he’d specifically break up the banks based on this.

Daily News: So, what I’m asking is, how can we understand? If you look at JPMorgan just as an example, or you can do Citibank, or Bank of America. What would it be? What would that institution be? Would there be a consumer bank? Where would the investing go?

Sanders: I’m not running JPMorgan Chase or Citibank.

Daily News: No. But you’d be breaking it up.

Sanders: That’s right. And that is their decision as to what they want to do and how they want to reconfigure themselves.

This is both a good and correct answer. This may not be intuitive to people who haven’t thought it through, but it’s not necessary, or even desirable, for regulators to specifically describe how to break up the banks. Instead tell them where they have to end up in terms of size – say no larger than $500 billion dollars – and let them figure it out the best way to get there.

Let’s have someone else who is well respected among the financial reform community make the point. Here’s Daniel Tarullo of the Federal Reserve from 2012 talking about some of the positives of a size cap on banks: “Another attraction of this form of proposal is that, even as it places constraints on the potential size and composition of a firm’s balance sheet, it allows relative flexibility to the firm in meeting that constraint, particularly when compared with proposals for prohibitions on commercial bank affiliations with other financial firms.”

In the speech he’s ultimately critical, bringing up many objections to a hard size cap. Yet even though he’s critical, he agrees with Sanders on the positive here.

You tell the banks they can’t be a certain size, and they themselves choose how to break themselves up. Perhaps it’s by region, business lines, market segmentation, who knows? But there’s an underlying economic logic taken on behalf of maximizing the value of the resulting firms given the (regulatory) constraint, which is a selling feature of markets.

This is how Dodd-Frank is currently working too. Firms such as JP Morgan slimmed down slightly in response to tougher prudential regulations like capital requirements. They themselves figured out what to sell off to reduce their regulatory requirements based on value. Activist investors are calling for breaking up AIG in response to Dodd-Frank, and they’ll know the right way to do it if it happens. Leaving it to the market to determine the most efficient way of handling requirements is a bonus, not a weakness, of the approach.

We don’t know what Metlife means yet
Sanders says the recent Metlife court decision from last week is “something I have not studied, honestly, the legal implications of that.” The ruling, as I type this, is sealed and has still not been released, so we have no clue what the opinion even is yet. It will likely have serious, negative, consequences, but it’s too early to understand what it means for all of financial reform going forward.

Sanders thinks Obama should have tried for criminal convictions
Something is being made of Sanders saying he doesn’t know the specific indictments that should have been brought against Wall Street. Sanders: “I believe that that is the case. Do I have them in front of me, now, legal statutes? No, I don’t.”

An easy way to understand this is to assume that a Sanders presidency would be less risk-averse in seeking criminal charges. A common refrain from defenders of the Obama administration’s approach to criminal prosecutions is that they didn’t want to bring a case unless it was a slam dunk, and there weren’t ones so they preferred taking easier settlements instead. In general, they didn’t push as hard as they could have. (I don’t think this is controversial.) Sanders would instead have tried on cases that weren’t slam dunks, seeing how far they could have gotten. This issue isn’t the specific statute, but whether you push the investigations as aggressively as you can when it comes to Wall Street.

There’s a lot to fight about with the approaches the candidates take on the power of the financial sector over our economy. It’s important to understand what needs genuine answers and criticism, and I don’t see this as on that level.

**Sig**
-Blackthought is the dopest emcee alive
-Uncle Sam and Santa Clause are good buddies.
-Be selfless and the world will be a better place.

  

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PimpTrickGangstaClik
Member since Oct 06th 2005
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Wed Apr-06-16 12:07 PM

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133. "What is the beef with Sanders' gun position?"
In response to Reply # 0


          

Clinton is sinking her teeth in Sanders statement that gun victims (Sandy Hook is the case mentioned) should not be able to sue gun manufacturers.

I don't see the problem with his statement. The gun manufacturer is producing legal products which have a legitimate purpose. Why should they be liable when they are misused?

_______________________________________

  

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Mynoriti
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134. "Agreed. She's being silly"
In response to Reply # 133


  

          

I think it's because on guns, it's one of the few issues (or only issue) she's coming out to the left of sanders on, so she's trying to run with it. But i don't think she's really thought it through beyond "guns = bad", and that people are so horrified and angry about what happened to those kids, they'll get behind whatever is considered anti-gun.

>Clinton is sinking her teeth in Sanders statement that gun
>victims (Sandy Hook is the case mentioned) should not be able
>to sue gun manufacturers.
>
>I don't see the problem with his statement. The gun
>manufacturer is producing legal products which have a
>legitimate purpose. Why should they be liable when they are
>misused?

  

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denny
Member since Apr 11th 2008
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Wed Apr-06-16 02:13 PM

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140. "I think we should have TWO remembrance days."
In response to Reply # 134
Wed Apr-06-16 02:14 PM by denny

          

Don't you support the troops?

  

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Mynoriti
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144. "lol yeah, it's pretty much that"
In response to Reply # 140


  

          

  

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Eric B Is Prez
Member since Nov 08th 2005
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142. "I don't get it either"
In response to Reply # 133


  

          

I'm all for tighter gun control, but if guns are currently legal to manufacture, then I don't see how you can blame manufacturers for the actions of the end user.

Nobody's going to sue Toyota if some lunatic drives a Camry onto a sidewalk and kills a bunch of pedestrians.

_______________________________________________________________________________________

  

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rob
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154. "i don't get why dems think this is an issue for elections"
In response to Reply # 133


  

          

it's not. people who vote on guns are much more likely to be pro-gun than pro-gun control.

and if you think "free college" would be a mess to implement, obama got ZERO traction on gun control despite his insane political abilities and passion for the issue.

gun control, if it ever happens, is going to take massive education and generational change to get done.

  

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kfine
Member since Jan 11th 2009
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Mon Apr-11-16 12:46 AM

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311. "This is late but: There's a larger discussion re: the PLCAA"
In response to Reply # 133
Mon Apr-11-16 12:47 AM by kfine

          

aka the Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act

which was signed into law by George W. Bush and, along with a ban placed by congress on the CDC preventing use of its funds to research or collect data on gun violence, serves as the key barrier to reforming firearm distribution in the US. Both initiatives were/are heavily supported by the NRA.

The PLCAA shields actors on the "supply end" (i.e. gun manufacturers and dealers) from any liability when illegal acts are committed with their products. One consequence of this is that it prevents victims from being able to pursue legal action/class action against gun manufacturers and dealers, rendering it a "protected industry."

However a more critical consequence, which I guess has less emotional appeal as a political talking point, is the barrier the PLCAA presents with respect to increased dealer oversight. Something like <1% of firearms dealers are responsible for supplying over half of the illegal weapons circulating in the United States, Mexico, etc.

So when you consider that illegal firearms are:

- the type of weapon used in an overwhelming majority of illegal acts/gun violence
- the type of weapon found in disproportionate volume within communities of colour
- a frequent reason men and women of colour are incarcerated

what the US has is a situation in which a small number of complicit "supply end" actors have been able to flood an entire illegal marketplace with their product, and remained free of any oversight or accountability due to protection under the PLCAA. The setup has shifted an ENORMOUS proportion of  risk to communities of colour. That is who gets charged, who goes to jail. Talk less of the scores of lives that could and would be saved if the volume of illegal firearms circulating could be diminished in the first place.

So ya. The convo is actually a really big deal for the Dems. I suspect a PLCAA repeal is what Obama is trying to set the wheels in motion for, for his successor. No future President of the United States is going to be able to crack down on the country's gun violence issue without taking a hard stance against the PLCAA, enabling research, etc.

Hence, it continues to come up

  

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SeV
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136. "15% if Wisconsin Bernie supporters didn't vote down ticket"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Lost the Supreme Court race smh

http://m.dailykos.com/story/2016/4/5/1511160/-Exit-Poll-15-of-WI-Bernie-voters-didn-t-vote-for-Kloppenburg

Cool revolution bro.




____________

Dallas Cavericks LETS GO!!

  

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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
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137. "there were 100K more GOP voters who came out"
In response to Reply # 136


          

so lets not act like Bernie voters lost the election for that woman

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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stravinskian
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Wed Apr-06-16 02:43 PM

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141. "In other words, Trump and Cruz are leading a revolution."
In response to Reply # 137


          


Bernie isn't leading shit.

(And neither is Hillary, of course, but you wouldn't expect a mainstream candidate running on continuing current policies to be a big draw in a primary.)

  

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legsdiamond
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149. "a revolution motivated by 8 years of Obama"
In response to Reply # 141


          

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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stravinskian
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151. "Yes! A revolution on the right!"
In response to Reply # 149


          


Because Obama has been effective, despite supposedly being bought and paid for by the big banks, or whatever. Republicans are tired of it, and they're flipping out. That's good news.

  

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rob
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157. "you're mischaracterizing what's going on, and i'm pretty sure you know i..."
In response to Reply # 151
Wed Apr-06-16 07:25 PM by rob

  

          

just because it fits as a counterpoint to bernie's pop.

it's amazing any democrat has shown up to vote in primaries at all since no matter how much he wins, bernie can't win.

the republicans are actually voting for something, which is why they're showing up. it's certainly not a revolutionary movement.

  

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legsdiamond
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158. "a black man in the WH was all they needed for motivation"
In response to Reply # 151


          

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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rob
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155. "how much worse would it have been if bernie had already dropped out?"
In response to Reply # 136


  

          

she would have been creamed if people were only showing up to rubber stamp hillary. it's not solely bernie's fault a state that elects scott walker and already had a conservative court narrowly voted to keep that going.

more people voting for bernie and kloppenburg than voted for hillary and kloppenburg.

this whole line of challenging bernie on it is pretty suspect, especially because he actually did support kloppenburg during his campaign. it's a lie to say this is an example of bernie failing to care about down ticket.

treating hillary like the presumptive nominee and negging his supporters is suppressing votes, and that's going to be more costly in elections like this than working on political literacy with the people bernie is pulling in.

  

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rob
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156. "and again, y'all got this backwards, the national dem machine has failed"
In response to Reply # 155
Wed Apr-06-16 07:20 PM by rob

  

          

it's what created the situation in wisconsin.

the dnc has had 6 years to deal with walker and his proteges, and it's been their job. and we're mad because bernie didn't do better in 6 months, when it's not his job yet, when they don't even want to try giving him that job?

  

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maryhattalillamb
Member since May 27th 2006
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Wed Apr-06-16 02:08 PM

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139. "6 of the last 7 shows LOTS of momentum."
In response to Reply # 0


          

Even though Bernie won't (probably) get enough votes to secure the nomination, HRC won't get enough to (firmly) secure it neither.
So, it will come down to brokering, just like the Republicans.

  

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stravinskian
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143. "To the extent that's true, it would be a catastrophe."
In response to Reply # 139


          


>So, it will come down to brokering, just like the
>Republicans.

http://www.salon.com/2016/04/06/dont_do_it_bernie_if_hillary_wins_the_delegates_race_a_contested_election_is_political_suicide/


Also, there really isn't such a thing as political "momentum", statistically speaking. That's just empty media narrative. In this election, we've more often seen "anti-momentum" effects, where it appears voters on both sides get complacent when they think they're ahead and do worse than they reasonably could.

  

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CRichMonkey
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148. "This is a lot like 2008, really... "
In response to Reply # 139


  

          

There's "momentum" but it's too little too late and the way the delegates are awarded, once you get a real lead, it's hard to lose it.


my avy: Deep in your heart, you know he's right: http://coreyrichardsonneedsajob.com/
my hustle: http://SupaSoulSounds.com

*RIP: John T. "220v" Richardson, Blessing Benson, and Dilla*

  

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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
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Wed Apr-06-16 05:40 PM

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150. "i dont remember Hillary winning 6 of 7 in 2008"
In response to Reply # 148


          

and I also remember a lot of superdelegates jumping from Hillary to Obama.

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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Mynoriti
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153. "nah, he's saying Bernie is Obama"
In response to Reply # 150


  

          

but Obama enough to win

  

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murph71
Member since Sep 15th 2005
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Thu Apr-07-16 07:13 AM

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163. "RE: i dont remember Hillary winning 6 of 7 in 2008"
In response to Reply # 150


          



U don't remember a lot of things, Legs...lol....But it happened, homie....Not only that, but in the spring of 2008 Obama lost to Clinton 6 out of the last 9 straight primaries and some of them by 20 to 30 point margins (more than what Bernie is doing)...

And yet the math wasn't on Clinton's side...She couldn't catch up to Obama....That's the reality Bernie is facing...

But again, I think what the Bernie heads in this thread want is a convention fight even if Clinton wins on the delegates....Don't think that would be a smart move...

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

  

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Mynoriti
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146. "This Politico piece is a pretty fair critique of Hillary imo"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

A lot of of the articles I read about her tend to come off overly hit piece-ish/agenda driven to me, but i think this one describes her pretty well.

The basics of it come down to this part though:
"But when you look at the positions she has taken on some of the most significant public policy questions of her time, you cannot escape noticing one key pattern: She has always embraced the politically popular stand—indeed, she has gone out of her way to reinforce that stand—and she has shifted her ground in a way that perfectly correlates with the shifts in public opinion."

http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2016/03/hillary-clinton-2016-whats-wrong-with-hillary-213722

  

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Mansa Musa
Member since Feb 16th 2009
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Wed Apr-06-16 10:19 PM

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160. "Naomi Klein on Clinton and fossil fuels (swipe)"
In response to Reply # 0
Wed Apr-06-16 10:22 PM by Mansa Musa

          

This isn't just a hit piece. Klein points out that Clinton's platform includes some good climate policies. And the Republicans, who deny climate change and talk about abolishing the EPA, are obviously worse, which is why they get more money than from the fossil fuel industry. But Klein makes valid points about the "never-ending merry-go-round of corporate-political give and take" that Clinton has been a part of.

http://www.thenation.com/article/the-problem-with-hillary-clinton-isnt-just-her-corporate-cash-its-her-corporate-worldview/

The Problem With Hillary Clinton Isn’t Just Her Corporate Cash. It’s Her Corporate Worldview.

By Naomi Klein 4/6/16 4:47 PM

There aren’t a lot of certainties left in the US presidential race, but here’s one thing about which we can be absolutely sure: The Clinton camp really doesn’t like talking about fossil-fuel money. Last week, when a young Greenpeace campaigner challenged Hillary Clinton about taking money from fossil-fuel companies, the candidate accused the Bernie Sanders campaign of “lying” and declared herself “so sick” of it. As the exchange went viral, a succession of high-powered Clinton supporters pronounced that there was nothing to see here and that everyone should move along.

The very suggestion that taking this money could impact Clinton’s actions is “baseless and should stop,” according to California Senator Barbara Boxer. It’s “flat-out false,” “inappropriate,” and doesn’t “hold water,” declared New York Mayor Bill de Blasio. New York Times columnist Paul Krugman went so far as to issue “guidelines for good and bad behavior” for the Sanders camp. The first guideline? Cut out the “innuendo suggesting, without evidence, that Clinton is corrupt.”

That’s a whole lot of firepower to slap down a non-issue. So is it an issue or not?

First, some facts. Hillary Clinton’s campaign, including her Super PAC, has received a lot of money from the employees and registered lobbyists of fossil-fuel companies. There’s the much-cited $4.5 million that Greenpeace calculated, which includes bundling by lobbyists.

But that’s not all. There is also a lot more money from sources not included in those calculations. For instance, one of Clinton’s most prominent and active financial backers is Warren Buffett. While he owns a large mix of assets, Buffett is up to his eyeballs in coal, including coal transportation and some of the dirtiest coal-fired power plants in the country.

Then there’s all the cash that fossil-fuel companies have directly pumped into the Clinton Foundation. In recent years, Exxon, Shell, ConocoPhillips, and Chevron have all contributed to the foundation. An investigation in the International Business Times just revealed that at least two of these oil companies were part of an effort to lobby Clinton’s State Department about the Alberta tar sands, a massive deposit of extra-dirty oil. Leading climate scientists like James Hansen have explained that if we don’t keep the vast majority of that carbon in the ground, we will unleash catastrophic levels of warming.

During this period, the investigation found, Clinton’s State Department approved the Alberta Clipper, a controversial pipeline carrying large amounts of tar-sands bitumen from Alberta to Wisconsin. “According to federal lobbying records reviewed by the IBT,” write David Sirota and Ned Resnikoff, “Chevron and ConocoPhillips both lobbied the State Department specifically on the issue of ‘oil sands’ in the immediate months prior to the department’s approval, as did a trade association funded by ExxonMobil.”

Did the donations to the Clinton Foundation have anything to do with the State Department’s pipeline decision? Did they make Hillary Clinton more disposed to seeing tar-sands pipelines as environmentally benign, as early State Department reviews of Keystone XL seemed to conclude, despite the many scientific warnings? There is no proof—no “smoking gun,” as Clinton defenders like to say. Just as there is no proof that the money her campaign took from gas lobbyists and fracking financiers has shaped Clinton’s current (and dangerous) view that fracking can be made safe.

It’s important to recognize that Clinton’s campaign platform includes some very good climate policies that surely do not please these donors—which is why the fossil-fuel sector gives so much more to climate change–denying Republicans.

Still, the whole funding mess stinks, and it seems to get worse by the day. So it’s very good that the Sanders camp isn’t abiding by Krugman’s “guidelines for good behavior” and shutting up about the money in a year when climate change has contributed to the hottest temperatures since records began. This primary isn’t over, and Democratic voters need and deserve to know all they can before they make a choice we will all have to live with for a very long time.

Eva Resnick-Day, the 26-year-old Greenpeace activist who elicited the “so sick” response from Clinton last week, has a very lucid and moving perspective on just how fateful this election is, how much hangs in the balance. Responding to Clinton’s claim that young people “don’t do their own research,” Resnick-Day told Democracy Now!:

"As a youth movement, we have done our own research, and that is why we are so terrified for the future…. Scientists are saying that we have half the amount of time that we thought we did to tackle climate change before we go over the tipping point. And because of that, youth—the people that are going to have to inherit and deal with this problem—are incredibly worried. What happens in the next four or eight years could determine the future of our planet and the human species. And that’s why we’re out there…asking the tough questions to all candidates: to make sure that whoever is in office isn’t going to continue things as they’ve been, but take a real stand to tackle climate change in a meaningful and deep way for the future of our planet."

Resnick-Day’s words cut to the heart of why this is not just another election cycle, and why Clinton’s web of corporate entanglements is deeply alarming with or without a “smoking gun.” Whoever wins in November, the next president will come into office with their back up against the climate wall. Put simply, we are just plain out of time. As Resnick-Day correctly states, everything is moving faster than the scientific modeling has prepared us for. The ice is melting faster. The oceans are rising faster.

And that means that governments must move much faster too. The latest peer-reviewed science tells us that if we want a good shot at protecting coastal cities this century —including New York, the place where Bernie and Hillary are currently having it out—then we need to get off fossil fuels with superhuman speed. A new paper from Oxford University, published in the journal Applied Energy, concludes that for humanity to have a 50-50 chance of meeting the temperature targets set in Paris, every new power plant has to be zero-carbon starting next year.

That is hard. Really hard. At a bare minimum, it requires a willingness to go head-to-head with the two most powerful industries on the planet—fossil-fuel companies and the banks that finance them. Hillary Clinton is uniquely unsuited to this epic task.

While Clinton is great at warring with Republicans, taking on powerful corporations goes against her entire worldview, against everything she’s built, and everything she stands for. The real issue, in other words, isn’t Clinton’s corporate cash, it’s her deeply pro-corporate ideology: one that makes taking money from lobbyists and accepting exorbitant speech fees from banks seem so natural that the candidate is openly struggling to see why any of this has blown up at all.

To understand this worldview, one need look no further than the foundation at which Hillary Clinton works and which bears her family name. The mission of the Clinton Foundation can be distilled as follows: There is so much private wealth sloshing around our planet (thanks in very large part to the deregulation and privatization frenzy that Bill Clinton unleashed on the world while president), that every single problem on earth, no matter how large, can be solved by convincing the ultra-rich to do the right things with their loose change. Naturally, the people to convince them to do these fine things are the Clintons, the ultimate relationship brokers and dealmakers, with the help of an entourage of A-list celebrities.

So let’s forget the smoking guns for the moment. The problem with Clinton World is structural. It’s the way in which these profoundly enmeshed relationships—lubricated by the exchange of money, favors, status, and media attention—shape what gets proposed as policy in the first place.

For instance, under the Clintons’ guidance, drug companies work with the foundation to knock down their prices in Africa (conveniently avoiding the real solution: changing the system of patenting that allows them to charge such grotesque prices to the poor in the first place). The Dow Chemical Company finances water projects in India (just don’t mention their connection to the ongoing human health disaster in Bhopal, for which the company still refuses to take responsibility). And it was at the Clinton Global Initiative that airline mogul Richard Branson made his flashy pledge to spend billions solving climate change (almost a decade later, we’re still waiting, while Virgin Airlines keeps expanding).

In Clinton World it’s always win-win-win: The governments look effective, the corporations look righteous, and the celebrities look serious. Oh, and another win too: The Clintons grow ever more powerful.

At the center of it all is the canonical belief that change comes not by confronting the wealthy and powerful but by partnering with them. Viewed from within the logic of what Thomas Frank recently termed “the land of money,” all of Hillary Clinton’s most controversial actions make sense. Why not take money from fossil-fuel lobbyists? Why not get paid hundreds of thousands for speeches to Goldman Sachs? It’s not a conflict of interest; it’s a mutually beneficial partnership—part of a never-ending merry-go-round of corporate-political give and take.

Books have been filled with the failures of Clinton-style philanthrocapitalism. When it comes to climate change, we have all the evidence we need to know that this model is a disaster on a planetary scale. This is the logic that gave the world fraud-infested carbon markets and dodgy carbon offsets instead of tough regulation of polluters—because, we were told, emission reductions needed to be “win-win” and “market-friendly.”

If the next president wastes any more time with these schemes, the climate clock will run out, plain and simple. If we’re to have any hope of avoiding catastrophe, action needs to be unprecedented in its speed and scope. If designed properly, the transition to a post-carbon economy can deliver a great many “wins”: not just a safer future, but huge numbers of well-paying jobs; improved and affordable public transit; more liveable cities; as well as racial and environmental justice for the communities on the frontlines of dirty extraction.

Bernie Sanders’s campaign is built around precisely this logic: not the rich being stroked for a little more noblesse oblige, but ordinary citizens banding together to challenge them, winning tough regulations, and creating a much fairer system as a result.

Sanders and his supporters understand something critical: It won’t all be win-win. For any of this to happen, fossil-fuel companies, which have made obscene profits for many decades, will have to start losing. And losing more than just the tax breaks and subsidies that Clinton is promising to cut. They will also have to lose the new drilling and mining leases they want; they’ll have to be denied permits for the pipelines and export terminals they very much want to build. They will have to leave trillions of dollars’ worth of proven fossil-fuel reserves in the ground.

Meanwhile, if solar panels proliferate on rooftops, big power utilities will lose a significant portion of their profits, since their former customers will be in the energy-generation business. This would create opportunities for a more level economy and, ultimately, for lower utility bills—but once again, some powerful interests will have to lose (which is why Warren Buffett’s coal-fired utility in Nevada has gone to war against solar).

A president willing to inflict these losses on fossil-fuel companies and their allies needs to be more than just not actively corrupt. That president needs to be up for the fight of the century—and absolutely clear about which side must win. Looking at the Democratic primary, there can be no doubt about who is best suited to rise to this historic moment.

The good news? He just won Wisconsin. And he isn’t following anyone’s guidelines for good behavior.

  

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stravinskian
Member since Feb 24th 2003
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Wed Apr-06-16 10:48 PM

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161. "God amighty."
In response to Reply # 160


          


This is just brimming with exactly the kind of 'environmentalism' that gives environmentalists a bad name. Fracking? Really? Solar panels on rooftops?

This is the same problem I have with Bernie. When you get stuff so fundamentally wrong, on issues you claim to care about, you feed the narrative that liberals don't know what they're talking about either.

  

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Mansa Musa
Member since Feb 16th 2009
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Wed Apr-06-16 11:23 PM

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162. "Are you saying fracking isn't a huge source of GHG emissions? "
In response to Reply # 161
Wed Apr-06-16 11:28 PM by Mansa Musa

          

The methane leaks alone from fracking may cancel out any climate benefits from reduced coal use.

And the methane emissions are enormous:

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/2014EF000265/full

"In conclusion, at the current methane loss rates, a net climate benefit on all time frames owing to tapping unconventional resources in the analyzed tight formations is unlikely."

Or perhaps you think it's unproblematic that 40 registered lobbyists for the Clinton campaign have worked with Chevron, ExxonMobil, and other fossil fuel companies to weaken carbon emission regulations. Are you saying the fossil fuel industry doesn't get anything in return for its lobbying and campaign contributions?


  

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stravinskian
Member since Feb 24th 2003
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Thu Apr-07-16 08:13 AM

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171. "The GHG emissions are a subtler issue than you think, but no."
In response to Reply # 162


          


No, I do not think, not have I ever thought, that natural gas, fracked or otherwise, is a serious way to reduce GHG emissions. But that's not what Klein was arguing.

She said fracking cannot "be made safe", as in, it inevitably poisons the ground water. That is not only untrue, it's another one of those standard industry strawmen that's so untrue that having it out there makes the real environmentalist case harder.

>Or perhaps you think it's unproblematic that 40 registered
>lobbyists for the Clinton campaign have worked with Chevron,
>ExxonMobil, and other fossil fuel companies to weaken carbon
>emission regulations. Are you saying the fossil fuel industry
>doesn't get anything in return for its lobbying and campaign
>contributions?

And no, I did not say that either (this, by the way, is the McCarthyist tactic that Barney Frank keeps accusing the Bernie Bros of using).

But I'd be happy to do so now. Even if that assertion is true (I always hesitate to take your numbers at face value, considering that they bubble up from the most unhinged end of the anti Hillary movement), it doesn't bother me in the slightest. People work for lots of organizations in their lifetimes. When there isn't a quid pro quo, there isn't a quid pro quo.

  

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Mansa Musa
Member since Feb 16th 2009
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Thu Apr-07-16 08:45 AM

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176. "The EPA has found widespread criminal violations"
In response to Reply # 171
Thu Apr-07-16 08:49 AM by Mansa Musa

          

In most states, environmental agencies are severely understaffed and facing budget cuts, and the federal EPA is stretched thin. Where the EPA has investigated, there have been often been massive violations of both the Clean Water Act and the Clean Air Act by fracking companies. Here are three recent examples:

https://www.epa.gov/enforcement/2014-major-criminal-cases

"Benedict W. Lupo, the owner of Hardrock Excavating LLC, was sentenced in August 2014 to 28 months in prison and fined $25,000 for violating the Clean Water Act by dumping fracking waste into a tributary of the Mahoning River."

https://www.epa.gov/enforcement/chesapeake-appalachia-llc-clean-water-settlement

"(WASHINGTON, DC - December 19, 2013) The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency and the Department of Justice announced that Chesapeake Appalachia, LLC, a subsidiary of Chesapeake Energy, the nation’s second largest natural gas producer, will spend an EPA-estimated $6.5 million to restore 27 sites damaged by unauthorized discharges of fill material into streams and wetlands and to implement a comprehensive plan to comply with federal and state water protection laws at the company’s natural gas extraction sites in West Virginia, many of which involve hydraulic fracturing operations."

http://www.salon.com/2014/12/23/exxonmobil_slammed_with_2_3_million_fine_for_fracking_related_water_pollution/

"The EPA just hit XTO Energy, a subsidiary of ExxonMobil and the nation’s largest natural gas company, with a cool $2.3 million fine for Clean Water Act violations related to its fracking activities in West Virginia."

And on and on. Given the industry's poor safety record, do you really think we can trust them not to violate environmental laws in the future? Let's be realistic here.

As for lobbying, the numbers are from Mother Jones, which has been pro-Hillary:

http://www.motherjones.com/environment/2015/07/hillary-clinton-bundlers-fossil-fuel-lobbyists

Kevin Drum and numerous other writers at Mother Jones have repeatedly defended Hillary against critics:
See:

http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2016/03/hillary-clinton-fundamentally-honest-and-trustworthy

http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2015/12/why-i-hillary-clinton-too

Calling the magazine the "fringe" of the "anti-Hillary movement" just doesn't work.

  

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stravinskian
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Thu Apr-07-16 09:04 AM

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179. "You keep saying irrelevant things that everybody knows,"
In response to Reply # 176


          


as if they were revelations.

Companies have been found guilty of violating the clean water act?! *clutches pearls*

This is why we HAVE a clean water act, to prosecute violations. Are you arguing that the EPA needs more funding to investigate these issues? If so, I agree, and so does Hillary, and so does Obama.

  

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Mansa Musa
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Thu Apr-07-16 09:40 AM

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180. "LOL. So the industry's constant violations of the law..."
In response to Reply # 179
Thu Apr-07-16 09:49 AM by Mansa Musa

          

...are proof it can be "made safe," because they are being fined? That's like saying heroin can be made safe, because drug busts happen.

Do you really want a fracking operation in your family's zip code?

  

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stravinskian
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Thu Apr-07-16 10:00 AM

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183. "If it's regulated, fine."
In response to Reply # 180


          


That's what regulations are for.

>Do you really want a fracking operation in your family's zip
>code?

  

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Mansa Musa
Member since Feb 16th 2009
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Thu Apr-07-16 10:21 AM

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184. "Do you realize how underfunded and understaffed..."
In response to Reply # 183
Thu Apr-07-16 10:32 AM by Mansa Musa

          

...these regulatory agencies are, both at the state and federal levels? They don't have enough inspectors to investigate more than a tiny fraction of existing operations. These EPA fines, of which I linked to a small sample, are the tip of the iceberg. There is no reason to think the fossil fuel industry will deviate from its long record of poor safety practices in the future.

By all means, if we had a massive influx of resources to these agencies tomorrow, I would welcome that. But A) that is very unlikely, and B) there are a vast array of things that better regulations don't make safe (leaded gasoline, CFCs, cigarette smoke, etc.). In those cases, bans become necessary.

  

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murph71
Member since Sep 15th 2005
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Thu Apr-07-16 07:32 AM

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164. "Bernie: "Hillary not qualified to be President" (CNN)"
In response to Reply # 0


          



The more and more this plays out I'm beginning to think that Trump and Bernie are both plants from the Dems and GOP....lol..(a little background info...Clinton was asked did the NY Daily News interview prove that Sanders was unqualified to run for President on Morning Joe.....Three times. And she didn't bite...She was on that "I'll let the people decide..." So of course, Bernie went Bernie.....)

-----

CNN

Washington (CNN) Bernie Sanders said Wednesday that Hillary Clinton is not "qualified" to be president, a sharp escalation in rhetoric in the Democratic primary.

"Secretary Clinton appears to be getting a little bit nervous," he told a crowd in Philadelphia. "And she has been saying lately that she thinks that I am 'not qualified' to be president. Well, let me, let me just say in response to Secretary Clinton: I don't believe that she is qualified, if she is, through her super PAC, taking tens of millions of dollars in special interest funds. I don't think that you are qualified if you get $15 million from Wall Street through your super PAC."

CNN has reached out to the Clinton campaign for comment, and its surrogates responded quickly on Twitter.

"Hillary Clinton did not say Bernie Sanders was 'not qualified.' But he has now - absurdly - said it about her. This is a new low," campaign spokesman Brian Fallon tweeted.
Clinton was asked Wednesday morning by MSNBC whether she thought Sanders was "ready to be president."

"I think he hadn't done his homework and he'd been talking for more than a year about doing things that he obviously hadn't really studied or understood, and that does raise a lot of questions," Clinton said. "Really what that goes to is for voters to ask themselves can he deliver what he's talking about."

Sanders and Clinton are barreling toward the New York primary later this month, and the duo are increasingly tangling in heated, tense campaign trail exchanges. Sanders' comments in Philadelphia were just the latest escalation in recent days. Clinton and her allies have been highlighting a recent Sanders interview with New York Daily News interview that was widely panned, suggesting it showed him unqualified for the White House.

In Philadelphia, Sanders turned that critique back on Clinton.

"I don't think you are qualified if you have voted for the disastrous war in Iraq. I don't think you are qualified if you have supported virtually every disastrous trade agreement which has cost us millions of decent paying jobs," he said to applause. "I don't think you are qualified if you've supported the Panama free trade agreement, something I very strongly opposed and, which as all of you know, has allowed corporations and wealthy all over the world people to avoid paying their taxes to their countries."

Comments from the Daily News interview also drew attacks over Sanders' stance on guns from Erica Smegielski, a Clinton supporter and daughter of the Sandy Hook Elementary School principal who was killed at Newtown. Clinton highlighted the criticism by tweeting at Smegielski.

"@EricaSmegs remember, any hateful comments are just noise compared to your voice for change. With you in the fight to stop gun violence. -H" she tweeted.
The latest Quinnipiac poll of New York Democrats finds Clinton beating Sanders 54% to 42%. That survey came out March 31, several days before Sanders won the Wisconsin primary. In fact, Sanders has won seven of the last eight Democratic contests, though Clinton has a commanding lead among delegates.

In addition to a trove of delegates New York is an important symbolic contest. Sanders was born in the Empire State, and New York City has been at the center of the national political battle over income inequality -- a signature issue for the Vermont senator. But Clinton represented the state in the Senate, and her campaign headquarters is based in Brooklyn.

The two candidates will face off in a debate in New York on April 14, hosted by CNN and NY1.

link: http://www.cnn.com/2016/04/06/politics/bernie-sanders-hillary-clinton-qualified/index.html

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

  

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stravinskian
Member since Feb 24th 2003
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Thu Apr-07-16 07:46 AM

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165. "He's playing with fire on this."
In response to Reply # 164


          


It's a classic dog whistle, and a lot of Democrats are not going to like it.

He's also making it harder and harder these days to dispute the fact that he's trying to take the party down with him.

  

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murph71
Member since Sep 15th 2005
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Thu Apr-07-16 08:15 AM

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172. "RE: He's playing with fire on this."
In response to Reply # 165


          

>
>It's a classic dog whistle, and a lot of Democrats are not
>going to like it.
>
>He's also making it harder and harder these days to dispute
>the fact that he's trying to take the party down with him.


The funny part is, most of the reasons he gave for Clinton being unqualified would stop 99.9 percent of politicians from running for President...lol

Shit is baffling.....

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

  

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denny
Member since Apr 11th 2008
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Thu Apr-07-16 09:53 AM

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181. "That was my first thought."
In response to Reply # 172


          

if Hillary's smart....she would pull Obama out again on this point. It's a pretty simple response:

'Based on Bernie Sander's pre-requisites....Obama is not equipped to be president'.

  

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Mansa Musa
Member since Feb 16th 2009
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Thu Apr-07-16 07:47 AM

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166. "Same thing she said about Obama in 2008"
In response to Reply # 164
Thu Apr-07-16 08:04 AM by Mansa Musa

          

"I think that I have a lifetime of experience that I will bring to the White House. I know Senator McCain has a lifetime of experience to the White House. And Senator Obama has a speech he gave in 2002.”

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/03/04/clinton-mccain-has-more-e_n_89758.html

Also, the Washington Post headline read: "Clinton questions whether Sanders is qualified to be president":

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2016/04/06/clinton-questions-whether-sanders-is-qualified-to-be-president/

It reads, in part:

"Former secretary of state Hillary Clinton on Wednesday questioned whether her rival in the Democratic presidential primary, Sen. Bernie Sanders (Vt.), is qualified to be president.

"I think he hadn't done his homework and he'd been talking for more than a year about doing things that he obviously hadn't really studied or understood," Clinton said in an interview on MSNBC's "Morning Joe," just one day after losing the Wisconsin primary to Sanders, "and that does raise a lot of questions."

And Politico:

http://www.politico.com/story/2016/04/sanders-clinton-not-qualified-to-be-president-221666

"When asked point-blank by "Morning Joe" host Joe Scarborough whether Sanders was ready for the Oval Office, Clinton raised the senator's recent interview with the New York Daily News.
"Well, I think the interview raised a lot of serious questions," Clinton said. "I think of it this way: The core of his campaign has been 'break up the banks,' and it it didn't seem in reading his answers that he understood exactly how that would work under Dodd-Frank."

****

In the context of the interview, she is obviously saying this "raises a lot of questions" about whether he is qualified to be president." That's why the Washington Post, in its usual propagandistic way, took that and ran with it. The error Sanders made is in failing to state that she strongly implied, but did not literally state, that he was unqualified, and then say, "Well, if we're raising questions about qualifications, I've got a few of my own..." The line between "raising questions" about qualifications and saying "unqualified" is thin.

But they will milk this for all it's worth, and I don't blame them. This is the point where the campaign gets really nasty.

  

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Mr. ManC
Member since Jan 26th 2009
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Thu Apr-07-16 07:55 AM

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167. "^^^^^^^^^^^^^"
In response to Reply # 166


  

          

________________________________________________
R.I.P. Soulgyal <3
SUPA NERD LLC.
Knowledge Meets Nature
Musica Negra
#13irteen

  

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murph71
Member since Sep 15th 2005
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Thu Apr-07-16 08:04 AM

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169. "RE: Same thing she said about Obama in 2008"
In response to Reply # 166
Thu Apr-07-16 08:08 AM by murph71

          

Yes...BECAUSE OBEEZY WAS A YOUNG ASS, FIRST TERM SENATOR WHO REALLY WAS WET BEHIND THE EARS TO A LOT OF SEASONED POLITICIANS...lol

Not the same thing, guys.....U know this....Right?

Now Obama went on to prove his critics wrong...But lets be clear...As a politician with years in the game and experience getting behind bills, u would be performing political malpractice in 2007/2008 if u didn't point out he was not ready to become President of the United States....And that was the knock on Obama. And again, it was true at THAT time....

U can say a lot of things about Clinton ...But unqualified ain't one of them....Again, Bernie takes a tank to an arm wrestling match.....lol....This shit is ridiculous...

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

  

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Mansa Musa
Member since Feb 16th 2009
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Thu Apr-07-16 08:11 AM

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170. "So it was okay when she said it about Obama?"
In response to Reply # 169
Thu Apr-07-16 08:12 AM by Mansa Musa

          

Honestly, from a purely tactical standpoint, I think Sanders should have worded this differently. But her "raising questions" about his qualifications to be president on national television the day before is about 1 millimeter away from what he said. They're both pulling out the heavy guns now.

  

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murph71
Member since Sep 15th 2005
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Thu Apr-07-16 08:25 AM

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173. "RE: So it was okay when she said it about Obama?"
In response to Reply # 170
Thu Apr-07-16 08:28 AM by murph71

          


Yes...I didn't stutter...Because EVERYBODY was saying it....lol

Again...Can we be intellectually honest here? I mean can we be adults?

If a young, first term Senator (Obama) announced that they were running for President, and u were a two term senator who before that went to war with the Republicans a decade before (Clinton), then of course u will pull the inexperienced card....

Damn near everybody in the Democratic party said Obama wasn't ready, UNTIL HE WAS....

Not the same....at all....

Clinton saying that Bernie doesn't do his homework on the issues is miles below saying he is unqualified....

Your boy Bernie is WILDING.....

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

  

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bentagain
Member since Mar 19th 2008
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Thu Apr-07-16 08:33 AM

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174. "RE: Sandy Hook"
In response to Reply # 166


  

          

I hope this doesn't get lost in all this 'qualified' non-sense

her trying to tie his name to Sandy Hook is shameful.

---------------------------------------------------------------

If you can't understand it without an explanation

you can't understand it with an explanation

  

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murph71
Member since Sep 15th 2005
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Thu Apr-07-16 08:43 AM

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175. "RE: Sandy Hook"
In response to Reply # 174


          

>I hope this doesn't get lost in all this 'qualified'
>non-sense
>
>her trying to tie his name to Sandy Hook is shameful.


Actually, one of the Sandy Hook mothers has been boosting Clinton and getting at Sanders....

Clinton has never said Bernie was unqualified to be President...She questioned him on the issues...the facts...Questioned him if he was prepared to dissect his own policies...

So let's chill with the straw man stuff....I respect that u don't care for Clinton....But yeah...Not like this...

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

  

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bentagain
Member since Mar 19th 2008
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Thu Apr-07-16 08:51 AM

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177. "Hey Murph, still deflecting I see"
In response to Reply # 175


  

          

IDC about the qualified comments

I replied about HRC tying his name to Sandy Hook

https://twitter.com/HillaryClinton/status/717797172154998784?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw

care to discuss?

---------------------------------------------------------------

If you can't understand it without an explanation

you can't understand it with an explanation

  

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murph71
Member since Sep 15th 2005
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Thu Apr-07-16 08:59 AM

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178. "RE: Hey Murph, still deflecting I see"
In response to Reply # 177
Thu Apr-07-16 09:03 AM by murph71

          

>IDC about the qualified comments
>
>I replied about HRC tying his name to Sandy Hook
>
>https://twitter.com/HillaryClinton/status/717797172154998784?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw
>
>care to discuss?


Clinton tied his name to Sandy Hook because the PARENTS and FAMILY MEMBERS of the victims blasted Bernie for saying that he would not support suing gun makers...

There's really no discussion to be had...If Clinton made the connection herself without any prompting, then u would def. have a point....But once the parents started riding on Bernie through the press of course Clinton would connect it with some of Bernie's issues with the gun debate...


This is what Clinton was pointing to:

“Shame on you, Bernie Sanders,” Erica Smegielski, daughter of the Sandy Hook Elementary School principal killed at Newtown, Connecticut, wrote on April 5, per CNN. “Try living one hour of our lives.” Erica linked to front page of the New York Daily News that attacked the Vermont Senator’s “shame.”

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

  

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bentagain
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Thu Apr-07-16 01:58 PM

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206. "RE: Hey Murph,here's your L "
In response to Reply # 178


  

          

http://www.theamericanmirror.com/hillary-accuses-sanders-of-standing-against-sandy-hook-shooting-victims/

She did make the connection on her own in Feb. = L

---------------------------------------------------------------

If you can't understand it without an explanation

you can't understand it with an explanation

  

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murph71
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Fri Apr-08-16 09:03 AM

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250. "RE: Hey Murph,here's your L "
In response to Reply # 206


          

>http://www.theamericanmirror.com/hillary-accuses-sanders-of-standing-against-sandy-hook-shooting-victims/
>
>She did make the connection on her own in Feb. = L


No...she didn't....

The Sandy Hook family and victims had already said they were concerned with Bernie's past gun vote by early Feb...The date u gave for this piece wad February 24th....

And again...U keep harping on this when the point is something entirely different:

This is politics. A tough business... If a candidate goes on record and says they don't think gun manufacturer's should be on the hook for a tragedy like Sandy Hook then the opposing candidate should def. make that difference known....

U know what Clinton doesn't say? That Bernie is unqualified because he doesn't side with making gun manufacturer's more accountable....She doesn't make that point because it would be opening up a whole can of worms...

I'll keep saying it...Bernie is a lot like Trump in that when you poke holes in his policies or call out the differences in your platform he views that with being negative...lol

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

  

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bentagain
Member since Mar 19th 2008
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Sun Apr-10-16 09:20 AM

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308. "Not doing much today, so I'll play"
In response to Reply # 250


  

          

No...she didn't....

"The Sandy Hook family and victims had already said they were concerned with Bernie's past gun vote by early Feb...The date u gave for this piece wad February 24th...."

HRC has been 'harping' on this alleged immunity since the beginning of the campaign

I posted a date, the date the lawsuit was heard

you replied with something about early Feb with no reference, noted

anyway, the idea that gun manufacturers can't be sued is a lie

defective trigger designs, safety designs, and selling to straw purchasers = current lawsuits

"This is politics. A tough business... If a candidate goes on record and says they don't think gun manufacturer's should be on the hook for a tragedy like Sandy Hook then the opposing candidate should def. make that difference known...."

Do you know how the shooter in Sandy Hook got the gun?

He killed the owner (his mother)

The lawsuit is using the legal claim of 'negligent entrustment'

Which, in my lamens understanding, I don't see the connection when the manufacturer didn't provide the shooter with the gun

i.e. she's using Sandy Hook to smear her opponent

and it's another deflection

we should be talking about legislation to ban assault weapons

but I guess we can't being that Bernie supports that

https://youtu.be/BM-VVSIRvEQ?t=3m26s

LOL@deflecting to the qualified BS, politics as usual, etc...

there is an issue here that should be talked about

the gun manufacturer immunity is a lie.

---------------------------------------------------------------

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you can't understand it with an explanation

  

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PimpTrickGangstaClik
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Thu Apr-07-16 09:57 AM

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182. "Cmon. He is trying to win a presidential election"
In response to Reply # 164


          

Is he supposed be playing patty cake with her? As far as "attacks" go, this is so benign.

It only looks like strong rhetoric if you come from the perspective that Sanders should be stepping aside or simply escorting her to the nomination.

_______________________________________

  

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murph71
Member since Sep 15th 2005
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Thu Apr-07-16 10:24 AM

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185. "RE: Cmon. He is trying to win a presidential election"
In response to Reply # 182


          

>Is he supposed be playing patty cake with her? As far as
>"attacks" go, this is so benign.
>
>It only looks like strong rhetoric if you come from the
>perspective that Sanders should be stepping aside or simply
>escorting her to the nomination.

Calling Clinton out on her Iraq vote? Legit...

Saying Clinton, a two time senator and former Secretary of State, is unqualified? Pretty stupid, for lack of a better word....

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

  

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PimpTrickGangstaClik
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Thu Apr-07-16 10:47 AM

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186. "What can he talk about? What is on the pre-approved list of talking poin..."
In response to Reply # 185


          

This is so silly. This Dem primary has been soooooo soft compared to prior years. He is simply talking about things she has done or voted for.

He isn't going into the mud talking about personal stuff. He avoided the low hanging fruit of Benghazi, emails, Whitewater, etc. that the Republicans are sure to harp on.

That's why the whole check your tone thing last week was so absurd. The only change in tone was from lightweight cheerleading ("Clinton would be a fine president, we agree on most things", "We're tired of hearing about those damn emails") to that of someone trying to win a nomination

_______________________________________

  

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stravinskian
Member since Feb 24th 2003
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Thu Apr-07-16 11:02 AM

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187. "Of course he can say the same stuff he's been saying..."
In response to Reply # 186


          


She shouldn't have voted for the war, she shouldn't be raising money from rich people, she shouldn't be planning on help from a superpac in the general... That's nothing new, and effective as it is for him, it's not a surprise.

But he tacked something on this time. He said she wasn't qualified, completely without provocation or justification. What does that have to do with the arguments he was making? Why would he be framing it in terms of "qualifications"?

Probably the same reason that Jeff Weaver criticized her the other day for being "ambitious." Sexism helps their campaign, whether they are encouraging it or not. And now that they have no plausible path to the nomination, but still think it might be possible if they pull out every stop, they've seen the value of dog whistles.

  

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Mansa Musa
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Thu Apr-07-16 11:26 AM

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188. "She questioned his qualifications to be president the day before..."
In response to Reply # 187


          

...on national television. Was that a "dog whistle" too? And was she "dog whistling" when she questioned Obama's qualifications in 2008?

  

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stravinskian
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Thu Apr-07-16 11:33 AM

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190. "Give us a quote."
In response to Reply # 188
Thu Apr-07-16 11:35 AM by stravinskian

          

Considering that the Sanders campaign has failed so far to find one, I can only guess there isn't one.

>And
>was she "dog whistling" when she questioned Obama's
>qualifications in 2008?

It certainly shaded her statements at the time, and that's why she needed to be careful with it, and why she, and even moreso Bill, were rightfully scorned for going too far with it and lost a lot of votes. But there is a difference: Obama had been in national office for only three years. So while it was a tricky subject to broach, it was an obvious issue in that campaign. In this case, there is NO plausible motivation other than the dog whistle aspect.

  

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Mansa Musa
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Thu Apr-07-16 11:46 AM

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192. "Here you go:"
In response to Reply # 190
Thu Apr-07-16 11:48 AM by Mansa Musa

          

It starts at 1:30 here:

http://www.msnbc.com/morning-joe/watch/clinton-i-have-a-record-a-plan-and-i-m-committed-660020291798

JS: Do you believe this morning that Bernie Sanders is qualified and ready to be president of the United States?

HC: Well, I think the interview raised a lot of really serious questions.

The meaning is unambiguous, which is why WaPo and other news outlets instantly reported that she questioned his qualifications to be president. All that Sanders did was hit the ball back into her court here.

As for the claim that her saying Obama was unqualified is more justified than Sanders saying that about her, in response to her saying it about him...c'mon, fam.

  

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stravinskian
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Thu Apr-07-16 11:56 AM

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193. "So there is no quote. "
In response to Reply # 192
Thu Apr-07-16 11:56 AM by stravinskian

          

Bernie lied.

>It starts at 1:30 here:
>
>http://www.msnbc.com/morning-joe/watch/clinton-i-have-a-record-a-plan-and-i-m-committed-660020291798
>
>JS: Do you believe this morning that Bernie Sanders is
>qualified and ready to be president of the United States?
>
>HC: Well, I think the interview raised a lot of really serious
>questions.

See that ^? That's an example of her NOT questioning his qualifications, and leaving it at the fact (also true) that he wasn't ready to discuss the details of his own financial policies.

They baited her THREE TIMES in that interview to say that he isn't qualified. And she refused to take the bait. Indeed, the meaning is unambiguous.

>As for the claim that her saying Obama was unqualified is more
>justified than Sanders saying that about her, in response to
>her saying it about him...c'mon, fam.

C'mon yourself. As you just demonstrated, she DIDN'T say it about Sanders. Beyond that, she is a two-term senator from one of the largest states in the country, and a secretary of state. Obviously you don't like her, and you're welcome to dislike her. But if you're trying to say that there is any reason to call her unqualified, other than the fact that she's a woman, you're completely full of shit.

  

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Mansa Musa
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Thu Apr-07-16 12:37 PM

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195. "No, her meaning couldn't be clearer."
In response to Reply # 193
Thu Apr-07-16 12:55 PM by Mansa Musa

          

...which is why the pro-Clinton Washington Post was able to report:

"Former secretary of state Hillary Clinton on Wednesday questioned whether her rival in the Democratic presidential primary, Sen. Bernie Sanders (Vt.), is qualified to be president.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2016/04/06/clinton-questions-whether-sanders-is-qualified-to-be-president/

Obviously, I'm not a fan of the Washington Post. But the reason they could report the interview that way is that her meaning was obvious. Has anybody seen the Clinton campaign request a correction for the WaPo headline? I didn't think so. Let me know when they do.

As for your second point, I'll reiterate that it's absurd to 1) give Hillary a pass for questioning Obama's qualifications, on the grounds that he was less experienced than her, 2) then to say "How dare Sanders say this about Hillary," in response to 3) her clearly questioning his qualifications. He could use the "more experienced" argument against her as easily as she could against Obama, so the "it was justifiable in that context, but not in this one" argument doesn't work.

  

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stravinskian
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Thu Apr-07-16 01:10 PM

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196. "The "Pro-Clinton Washington Post." LOL"
In response to Reply # 195


          

Yes, I know about your beef with WaPo. But I promise, they're not a front for the Clinton campaign. They're trying to sell papers, they're not doing terribly well at it these days. But headlines and lead paragraphs are what you use to grab eyeballs.

The fact remains: she didn't say what Bernie accused her of saying. The closest you can come to a justification is "this newspaper, that I'm already on record dismissing, said that she said something that she didn't say."

Bernie escalated this because he's freaking out over the Daily News interview. His only good strategy now is to try to move on.


>As for your second point, I'll reiterate that it's absurd to
>1) give Hillary a pass for questioning Obama's qualifications,
>on the grounds that he was less experienced than her,

I didn't give her a pass. I said she rightly paid a price for it in 2008, despite the fact that there was at least some justification for it in that case. She rightly paid a price for it, and now Bernie gets to pay a price for it.

>2) then
>to say "How dare Sanders say this about Hillary," in response
>to 3) her clearly questioning his qualifications.

Again, she never questioned his qualifications.

>He could use
>the "experience in the Senate" argument just as easily as she
>could against Obama,

Yes, he could have, and hopefully he would have paid a price for it back then as well.

He fucked up. Everyone does it once in a while. It's time for him to move past it and get back to that "positive campaign" that he always claims to be running.

  

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Mansa Musa
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Thu Apr-07-16 01:36 PM

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200. "She gave them the opening, and they exploited it"
In response to Reply # 196
Thu Apr-07-16 01:38 PM by Mansa Musa

          

If she had said, "Yes, but I think I'm more qualified," that would be that. She didn't, her implication was obvious, and he put the ball back in her court. The attempt to make a scandal out of that is going to fall flat.

This exchange really isn't going anywhere, though, so I'll agree to disagree with you.

  

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murph71
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Thu Apr-07-16 01:42 PM

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203. "RE: She gave them the opening, and they exploited it"
In response to Reply # 200
Thu Apr-07-16 01:44 PM by murph71

          

>If she had said, "Yes, but I think I'm more qualified," that
>would be that. She didn't, her implication was obvious, and he
>put the ball back in her court. The attempt to make a scandal
>out of that is going to fall flat.
>
>This exchange really isn't going anywhere, though, so I'll
>agree to disagree with you.


Cut it out....U don't even believe all of this^^^^...lol

Bernie is now blaming the media for this blow up....Yeah, this has gone just the way Bernie and his team envisioned....

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

  

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Mansa Musa
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Thu Apr-07-16 02:00 PM

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208. "If somebody asked, "Is Murph qualified to win this debate?""
In response to Reply # 203
Thu Apr-07-16 02:10 PM by Mansa Musa

          

And then I answered, "Well, his last post certainly raises a lot of questions," everyone would know what I was saying.

  

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murph71
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213. "RE: If somebody asked, "Is Murph qualified to win this debate?""
In response to Reply # 208


          

>And then I answered, "Well, his last post certainly raises a
>lot of questions," everyone would know what I was saying.

No....If someone asked u THREE TIMES and u shut down the questioning by saying," I will let the American people judge that (paraphrasing)" then that's all that needs to be taken from it...

Instead, Bernie and his team took one look at a headline and decided to turn it up to 11 without reading Clinton's actual response to Morning Joe....

Bernie's team let him down.....They flubbed this one....It happens to the best of 'em...But Bernie needs to understand its too late in the game to be going that slash and burn route...lol

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

  

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Mansa Musa
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Thu Apr-07-16 03:27 PM

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215. "I think you're half right"
In response to Reply # 213
Thu Apr-07-16 03:43 PM by Mansa Musa

          

I disagree with you about the Clinton interview--I think her implication was very clear, and that anybody watching it would have picked that up. But we're not going to agree on that.

I do think it's plausible that Bernie's people told him, based on the Washington Post headline and opening sentences, "Clinton said you're "not qualified," when she didn't literally use those words. He should have said, "Secretary Clinton has recently questioned my qualification to be president." That would have been an accurate paraphrase of her Morning Joe interview.

  

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murph71
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Fri Apr-08-16 08:12 AM

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237. "RE: I think you're half right"
In response to Reply # 215


          



I feel u....I just think Bernie needs to turn it down....Again, Obama spelled it out yesterday....That Tea Party type mindset can be poisonous for the Democratic Party....

Politics is not an all or nothing art....

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

  

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murph71
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Thu Apr-07-16 11:33 AM

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191. "RE: She questioned his qualifications to be president the day before..."
In response to Reply # 188


          



No...she didn't...Clinton said Sanders doesn't know his own issues...And then when pressed if he was qualified she simply said she will let the American people decide...

Hell, just this morning she again took the high road and said she would vote for Bernie any day of the week against the Republicans...

Bernie took a leap...A BIG leap....And now he's trying to walk it back, but its too late...

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

  

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murph71
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Thu Apr-07-16 11:29 AM

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189. "RE: What can he talk about? What is on the pre-approved list of talking ..."
In response to Reply # 186


          



He can talk about the issues?...lol

I mean...Bernie just said Clinton was unqualified because SHE HAS A SUPER PAC AND DOES BIG MONEY FUNDRAISING....But wouldn't that disqualify damn near every modern Presidential candidate from Bush senior to Obama?

I mean, what r we talking about here? Sometimes I really believe that Bernie takes his whole Captain Progressive purity thing too seriously....Dude is playing a different game right now...And its quite head scratching....

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

  

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PimpTrickGangstaClik
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Thu Apr-07-16 01:14 PM

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197. "This is an issue. It's one on the central issues of his campaign"
In response to Reply # 189


          

According to his (albeit lofty) vision for American politics, those who engage in big money politics are not fit for political office.
His belief is that they will not be able to properly do their jobs if there is so much monetary influence in the environment.
What people did in the past isn't relevant.

I agree that the term "unqualified" can be seen by those with sensitive ears as a dog whistle.
But in the context he used it, there is no way it was a dog whistle. He said she is unqualified and listed the reasons why he believes so, none which are linked in anyway to her being a woman.


>
>
>He can talk about the issues?...lol
>
>I mean...Bernie just said Clinton was unqualified because SHE
>HAS A SUPER PAC AND DOES BIG MONEY FUNDRAISING....But wouldn't
>that disqualify damn near every modern Presidential candidate
>from Bush senior to Obama?
>
>I mean, what r we talking about here? Sometimes I really
>believe that Bernie takes his whole Captain Progressive purity
>thing too seriously....Dude is playing a different game right
>now...And its quite head scratching....

_______________________________________

  

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murph71
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Thu Apr-07-16 01:28 PM

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199. "RE: This is an issue. It's one on the central issues of his campaign"
In response to Reply # 197
Thu Apr-07-16 01:30 PM by murph71

          


But u can't say someone is unqualified because of a fucking super pac, dog...U can't say they r not qualified to run for President because they r doing mega money fundraisers....It sounds like some extreme Marxist, wildly progressive-purity fueled talking points from a sixth year college senior.....

Bernie has managed to take his one lone message (Income inequality) and shoehorn it into EVERY political debate.....

If he wants to prove he's the most cleanest Liberal progressive to ever walk the earth, bully for him...

But that shit has nothing to do with who is qualified to run for President....And what this all proves to me? Bernie is indeed a one issue candidate...

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

  

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PimpTrickGangstaClik
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Thu Apr-07-16 01:41 PM

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202. "I don't know why you keep trying to make this about purity politics..."
In response to Reply # 199


          

Clinton will be making (has already made) the exact same statement in the general election against the Republican candidate (if it isn't Trump). i.e. "Yadda yadda yadda.... the Koch brothers...."

Ain't no wild progressive purity litmus test in there.

Is it just the usage of the word unqualified that bothers you so much? Would it be better if he said "Clinton shouldn't be president because...."


_______________________________________

  

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murph71
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Thu Apr-07-16 01:59 PM

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207. "RE: I don't know why you keep trying to make this about purity politics...."
In response to Reply # 202


          

>Clinton will be making (has already made) the exact same
>statement in the general election against the Republican
>candidate (if it isn't Trump). i.e. "Yadda yadda yadda.... the
>Koch brothers...."
>
>Ain't no wild progressive purity litmus test in there.


If someone says u r unqualified to run for President because u have a super pac, that doesn't come off as higher than thou to u?

Obama, John Kerry, W, B. Clinton, Al Gore, and Bush Senior ect, have all courted big money donors outside of the political circle...And most of them had super pacs..

Now if u want to say I WANT TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT CAMPAIGN FINANCE...WE NEED TO REFORM IT ALL, that's totally different than MY OPPONENT IS NOT QUALIFIED TO BE PRESIDENT BECAUSE SHE HAS A........SUPER PAC!!!!!!

That shit daffy as fuck....And yeah, it sounds like some political purity test gone off the rails...

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

  

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PimpTrickGangstaClik
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Thu Apr-07-16 06:31 PM

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224. "So it is just the word 'unqualified' that you have issues with?"
In response to Reply # 207


          

Not the spirit of his statement? If instead he said "she shouldn't be president because....", would you be up in arms? Because that is basically what he said.
Again, it does not matter what people have done in the past. The campaign system was corrupt and absurd then just as it is now.


>
>Now if u want to say I WANT TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT CAMPAIGN
>FINANCE...WE NEED TO REFORM IT ALL, that's totally different
>than MY OPPONENT IS NOT QUALIFIED TO BE PRESIDENT BECAUSE SHE
>HAS A........SUPER PAC!!!!!!
>

Why should he be limited to saying the former? He is trying to differentiate himself from Clinton. Simply stating that we need campaign finance reform is all well and good.
But if you are trying to win an election, you need to point out why you should be picked over your challenger.

_______________________________________

  

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murph71
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Fri Apr-08-16 08:37 AM

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245. "RE: So it is just the word 'unqualified' that you have issues with?"
In response to Reply # 224


          



No ...it's not the word itself....

My issue is WHY Bernie called her unqualified....

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

  

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stravinskian
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Fri Apr-08-16 01:48 PM

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267. "I would say that it is the word itself."
In response to Reply # 224
Fri Apr-08-16 01:53 PM by stravinskian

          

The arguments he tries to make to justify it are problematic, but nothing new. The problem, as far as I'm concerned, is "unqualified." There's no conceivable reason to call a former Secretary of State and two-term senator from one of the largest states in the country, unqualified. When voters hear the line, they need to have it explained to them, and his explanation still sounds like an odd construction.

The reason to choose that word is that it feeds into voters' unconscious biases about women in professional work. Namely: that successful women become successful through affirmative action, and that therefore their successes should be discounted.

There's nothing new in what he's arguing about campaign finance and all that. If he wanted to change up the stump speech, there are thousands of ways he would have gone with it. The fact that they went with a construction that exploits voters' unconscious sexist biases should be called out. If it was accidental, fine, but at the very least they need to admit to the problematic wording and stop using it.

  

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murph71
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Fri Apr-08-16 08:14 AM

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240. "RE: I don't know why you keep trying to make this about purity politics...."
In response to Reply # 202


          




I don't know, homie....Ask this guy....

http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/275546-obama-warns-dems-against-tea-party-mentality

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

  

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denny
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Thu Apr-07-16 01:43 PM

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204. "Wait a minute....."
In response to Reply # 199
Thu Apr-07-16 01:46 PM by denny

          

You don't think campaign financing needs to be reformed? Seriously?

The times are changing in this regard. I can understand you saying that Obama, Bill, George, Hillary et al are just playing the game. Necessary evil and all that. But now you're sounding like you're not in support of that game coming to an end. Which is crazy.

To characterize campaign finance reform as Marxism is just baffling to me. This shit is a problem. It needs to be fixed. Could be that Hillary is the LAST democrat to do it. Hopefully you're on board if that's the case. You are, right?

  

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murph71
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Thu Apr-07-16 02:02 PM

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209. "RE: Wait a minute....."
In response to Reply # 204


          

>You don't think campaign financing needs to be reformed?
>Seriously?

Um...what does this have to do with being unqualified to be President?...That's the question....

If super pacs were illegal then yeah...U would have a point...But Bernie and his team reached like a mufucka....

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

  

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denny
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Thu Apr-07-16 02:08 PM

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210. "The only reason it's acceptable now is because it's the paradigm."
In response to Reply # 209


          

In the future....I will guarantee you that taking money from corporate interests will disqualify you as president. It's like that now because we've come to accept it as a necessary evil. When it is no longer seen as necessary...and there's a good argument that Bernie has proved it's not....for SURE it should disqualify you.

I wouldn't say it outright disqualifies Hillary in this primary. But the game is changing RIGHT NOW. And it wouldn't surprise me that Hillary is the last democratic candidate who will get away with it.

  

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murph71
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Thu Apr-07-16 02:35 PM

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212. "RE: The only reason it's acceptable now is because it's the paradigm."
In response to Reply # 210


          



U r right...Things need to change...

But I still don't see what that has to do with someone being qualified to run for President...That's my underlining point here...

Its as if Bernie has latched on to a platform and falls back on it on every debate imaginable....

It's ham-fisted to say the least....

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

  

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denny
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Thu Apr-07-16 03:39 PM

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216. "Dude...."
In response to Reply # 212
Thu Apr-07-16 03:43 PM by denny

          

You don't see how accepting money from the corporations a government is responsible in regulating shouldn't disqualify someone from the presidency?

It's conflict of interest 101. How can you properly regulate an institution that gives you money?

I think we're agreeing. I HOPE we're agreeing. lol

Bernie is absolutely correct in theory. The only reason I'm not entirely on board with this contention specifically as it pertains to Clinton is because of the 'necessary evil' paradigm that exists NOW.....and which Sanders is, arguably, currently dismantling for good.

What Sanders has shown is that it's possible to be a viable candidate WITHOUT taking that money. Proof of that would mean there's no excuses in the future. You take money from those that you should be regulating? Disqualified. I would hope we agree on that.

  

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murph71
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Fri Apr-08-16 08:34 AM

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244. "RE: Dude...."
In response to Reply # 216


          


We in the grown up world, dog....A world where we are capable of saying that the system NEEDS TO BE CHANGED without jumping off the ledge and equating that to IF U HAVE A SUPER PAC U R UNQUALIFIED...

Again, system needs to be changed.....Money should be taken out of politics...Citizens United is on some bullshit....

But this^^^^has nothing to do with W, Kerry, Obama, or Clinton being disqualified to run for President.....U see...we can all walk and chew gum at the same time....

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

  

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denny
Member since Apr 11th 2008
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Fri Apr-08-16 10:45 AM

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256. "Why do you keep under-cutting the point here?"
In response to Reply # 244
Fri Apr-08-16 10:59 AM by denny

          

If u can 'walk and chew gum at the same time' then why does Citizens united/campaign financing need to be reformed?

You either think it needs to be reformed or you don't. If you do....then you must agree that the current system creates a conflict of interest and that Hilary's current campaign is compromised.

If it 'doesn't' create a conflict of interest.....then why would you concede that it needs to be reformed?

Fact is....Like you, Hillary is clearly being hyprocritical and self-contracting on this point. She herself has said that if elected, one of her top priorities will be campaign finance reform. If her campaign is not compromised by her current financing....then why does it need to be changed? It's a logical contradiction. She can't say that it needs to be reformed while maintaining that it's not a problem for her campaign.

A direct Hillary quote from her site:

“We have to end the flood of secret, unaccountable money that is distorting our elections, corrupting our political system, and drowning out the voices of too many everyday Americans. Our democracy should be about expanding the franchise, not charging an entrance fee.”

How can she say THAT.....then make the claim 'we can walk and chew gum at the same time'. Time and time again she claims her donations are 'not an issue'. If that was so....then how does she square her promise to reform the very system from which she receives those donations?

How do you feel about scientists who are funded by the coal industry that deny climate change? Can't they walk and chew gum at the same time? Or doctors paid by cigarette companies who study lung cancer? They walking and chewing too?

  

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stravinskian
Member since Feb 24th 2003
12698 posts
Fri Apr-08-16 01:23 PM

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263. "I, for one, don't see how that is the point. "
In response to Reply # 256


          

One problem with this line of reasoning is that it leaves no room for nuance. Sandersites hate that word, I know, but the world really is a lot more complicated than it's often given credit for. Something can be a long-term threat to our Democracy (as Hillary, Obama, and basically every modern Democrat agrees is the case with the post-Citizens-United campaign fundraising landscape), while not necessarily being an immediate existential threat, much less a disqualifying factor for any given candidate.

Also, there's the fact that politics is a game where you can't change the rules unless you first win by the rules as they stand, like them or not. Bernie Sanders is threatening to run a general election campaign, if he's lucky enough to get the chance, without the help of a superpac. And at this point, he's pushing Hillary Clinton to make the same threat. I call it a threat because it threatens the eventual Democratic ticket, and thereby the very goal of advancing campaign finance reform. The Republican candidate won't shut down his superpacs just because WE say they're a corrupting influence. For the Democratic nominee to attempt to run without a superpac would put him or her at an enormous disadvantage. Bernie Sanders, and his $27 donation movement, has raised a hell of a lot of money by the standards of primary campaigns, but a pittance by the standards of general elections. In the last general election both sides, including superpacs, spent well over a *billion* dollars, and all estimates are that the cost will rise significantly this time around. You can't raise that kind of money without the help of a superpac. In 2012, Barack Obama was on record that superpacs represent a corrosive influence on politics. And his campaign seriously investigated the possibility of working without one (the 2008 race, IIRC, was pre-Citizens-United, so there were no superpacs). They ran the numbers and decided it couldn't work, that it would mean "unilateral disarmament" against the very moneyed interests that they're trying to shut down, and they stated the case in those terms during the election. Then after winning the election, they went about fighting to reform that system. It's not an easy task, given that the problem of superpacs was created not by legislation but by a Supreme Court decision, but the push to confirm Merrick Garland (or perhaps someone else put up by Hillary or Bernie) would at least make it possible for that decision to be overturned.

Regarding the claims of individual contributions to the campaign itself (I'm not sure where your back and forth started on this), such as the claims from Greenpeace: those become a hell of a lot less scandalous once you put the numbers in context. Specifically, the donations from the "oil and gas industry" (which as Hillary noted, are actually donations from people who've WORKED in the oil and gas industry, not from companies themselves, which would be illegal), amount to 0.2% of the total contributions to her campaign.

http://www.npr.org/2016/04/01/472615778/fact-check-hillary-clinton-and-donations-from-fossil-fuel-companies

Now, if you want to claim that those donations make her beholden to the interests of the employers of those donors (which is honestly a stretch because they literally have no way of ever calling in such favors), then what you're actually saying is that her governance will be at least 99.8% independent from those interests, which honestly sounds pretty fucking good, especially when compared to the realistic alternative of a Republican president holding both houses of Congress and regaining a solid Supreme Court majority.

This:

>How do you feel about scientists who are funded by the coal
>industry that deny climate change? Can't they walk and chew
>gum at the same time? Or doctors paid by cigarette companies
>who study lung cancer? They walking and chewing too?

That is precisely the kind of mindless comparison that makes me despise Bernie Sanders and his movement. People who work for the coal companies ANSWER to the coal companies. People who work for the tobacco companies answer to the tobacco companies. They have to do their bidding or else they lose their jobs. Political donations are an entirely different subject. A campaign donor can't throw a politician out of office if their donations don't lead to adequately special treatment. They can cut off future donations (or perhaps increase them to try to become more friendly -- I'm sure a lot of interesting game theory papers have been written on the subject), but if they do so, that's just one donor, or a class of donors, out of the very broad swath that any successful campaign needs to build. As we've already seen above, if Hillary so incensed the fossil fuel industry that they completely cut off their donations, then they would have to cut out one fifth of one percent of their campaign expenditures. That hardly makes her beholden.

This is not to say that corporate influence doesn't exist in campaign fundraising; of course it does; or that it's okay; of course it isn't. But when you draw a parallel to a paid employee of a corporation, who is forced to represent that corporation's interests, you lose all credibility on the subject. And when Bernie does it, he does too.

  

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Mansa Musa
Member since Feb 16th 2009
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Sat Apr-09-16 11:07 AM

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290. "So you don't just despise Bernie Sanders..."
In response to Reply # 263
Sat Apr-09-16 11:09 AM by Mansa Musa

          

...you despise his millions of supporters, including Ben Jealous of the NAACP, Michelle Alexander, and many of the posters on this board. You are on record as saying of Sanders supporters that "unfortunately they all still get to vote."

Presumably you were joking, and don't really wish that half of Michigan's black Democratic primary voters under 40 couldn't vote. Or maybe you do?

Why is it so hard to understand that people who marched and protested against the Iraq War don't want a Democratic nominee who supported it?

Why is it so hard to understand that the country's largest Arab-American community (Dearborn, MI) overwhelmingly chose Sanders over Clinton, in part because of her closeness to the right-wing Netanyahu government?

Why is it so hard to understand that people who live in communities devastated by predatory subprime lending by all the major banks (like Detroit, where I live) don't want a nominee backed by those banks?

Why is it so hard to understand that people who opposed Bill Clinton's welfare reform bill don't want a nominee who called welfare mothers "deadbeats"?

Why is it so hard to understand why people would support a candidate who actually challenges the campaign fundraising status quo?

Why is it so hard to understand that people don't want a nominee whose policy record doesn't violate every moral principle they hold?

But I guess you think we shouldn't be allowed to vote.

  

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stravinskian
Member since Feb 24th 2003
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Sat Apr-09-16 11:43 AM

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294. "Wow, you really just asked me this. "
In response to Reply # 290


          

>Presumably you were joking, and don't really wish that half of
>Michigan's black Democratic primary voters under 40 couldn't
>vote. Or maybe you do?


As for who I do or do not 'despise', I mentioned Bernie and his movement.

Bernie himself I stand by, just because he claims to want progress on the same issues I do, but he's actively undermining that progress and he should know better. I'm hopeful that he will eventually attempt to atone, though.

As for the movement, I'll note that the movement itself is different from its individual members. The problem is the character of their groupthink, not the individuals giving in to that groupthink. To borrow a phrase from some other people I have a hard time respecting: it's a "love the sinner, hate the sin" thing.


The rest of this is just a series of emotional non-sequiturs, so I'll pass.

  

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Mansa Musa
Member since Feb 16th 2009
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Sat Apr-09-16 12:29 PM

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297. "They aren't non sequiturs at all"
In response to Reply # 294


          

You refuse to believe that many intelligent, well-informed people would prefer the candidate who isn't fundamentally opposed to their views on the issues I listed. And that list could go on for a very, very long time.

A lot of people are sick of hawkish, blue dog Democrats. Apparently, you regret that those people are "allowed to vote."

  

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stravinskian
Member since Feb 24th 2003
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Sat Apr-09-16 12:53 PM

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299. "If you actually believed"
In response to Reply # 297


          


that Hillary was "fundamentally opposed" to your views on those issues, then you shouldn't vote for her, or for any Democrat, all of whom basically agree on the issues, including Bernie. Of course, if you actually believed she was "fundamentally opposed" to your views on those issues, and you're not a Republican, then you'd be wrong. And like many other generally intelligent people, you'd be giving in to reactionary groupthink and wishful thinking.

  

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Mansa Musa
Member since Feb 16th 2009
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Sat Apr-09-16 01:43 PM

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304. "The Democrats and Republicans are far too similar..."
In response to Reply # 299
Sat Apr-09-16 01:44 PM by Mansa Musa

          

...on far too many issues, and that has everything to do with our ever-more plutocratic campaign finance system.

Reasonable people can disagree about the relative electability of Clinton and Sanders. It's also understandable that, for many voters, the prospect of the first woman president outweighs whatever Clinton's faults are. But it shouldn't be hard to see why a lot of people are hungry for something more progressive.

  

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denny
Member since Apr 11th 2008
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Sat Apr-09-16 11:26 AM

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293. "It's not just oil and gas though."
In response to Reply # 263
Sat Apr-09-16 11:29 AM by denny

          

I'll define it as 'any money given from institutions for which the federal government is responsible in regulating'. And that accounts for alot more than .2%

I'm not much of an environmentalist advocate. My main concern is money and income inequality. And the securities/investment industry has given her 21 million. Like I said before....i recognize that this 'game' has been deemed a necessary evil so this is NOT a specific attack on this Hillary campaign. In other words...I think we can agree that Hillary can't be really be blamed for taking this money. I'm pragmantic enough to accept the argument that she wouldn't be able to compete against the GOP without it. But Bernie is showing it's possible to do it without taking the money. After that's established? No more excuses.

Again.....in principle, and setting aside the current context, I would sincerely HOPE that you agree that accepting 21 million from the securities/investment industry SHOULD disqualify you from holding a position that is responsible for regulating them.

  

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stravinskian
Member since Feb 24th 2003
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Sat Apr-09-16 12:38 PM

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298. "RE: It's not just oil and gas though."
In response to Reply # 293


          

>I'll define it as 'any money given from institutions for
>which the federal government is responsible in regulating'.
>And that accounts for alot more than .2%
>
>I'm not much of an environmentalist advocate. My main concern
>is money and income inequality. And the securities/investment
>industry has given her 21 million.

So that amounts to about 13% of her total fundraising. That's definitely a bigger number, but again, hardly enough money to put her in anyone's pocket.

And let's not forget that these donations, also, aren't from financial firms themselves, they're from people who work in the industry. Most of whom she represented in the Senate, so they have plenty of reasons to like her and donate to her campaign other than to demand some kind of unspecifiable payback. A large number of my colleagues from grad school ended up going into finance. They were uniformly hardcore progressives long before they went to Wall Street. The people who go to Wall Street from business school are right-wing shmucks, but the people who go to Wall Street from the worlds of math, science, and CS (a smaller, but growing number), understand the value of regulation. The financial crisis didn't help the banks, and it certainly didn't help the people who work for the banks, huge numbers of whom were laid off when institutions failed or were forced to restructure. This is also why Barack Obama got so much money from Wall Street.

>Like I said before....i
>recognize that this 'game' has been deemed a necessary evil so
>this is NOT a specific attack on this Hillary campaign. In
>other words...I think we can agree that Hillary can't be
>really be blamed for taking this money. I'm pragmantic enough
>to accept the argument that she wouldn't be able to compete
>against the GOP without it. But Bernie is showing it's
>possible to do it without taking the money. After that's
>established? No more excuses.

Bernie isn't showing that it's possible. Again, what he's raising is not nearly enough to run a general election. If he got to a general election, and refused the support of a superpac, he would lose (even if he were a strong general election candidate, which he isn't).

(We're kinda mixing campaign fundraising and superpac fundraising in this argument, which makes it a little difficult to follow. Unfortunately I think that's also a reason that this issue is so easy for Republican pieces-of-shit to evade and for easy-answer-loving liberals to demagogue.)

>Again.....in principle, and setting aside the current context,
>I would sincerely HOPE that you agree that accepting 21
>million from the securities/investment industry SHOULD
>disqualify you from holding a position that is responsible for
>regulating them.

No, I wouldn't agree with that, again because (when we're talking about the campaigns themselves, as we are here) this money isn't coming from industries, it's coming from individuals who work in industries. Every industry in America is regulated by the federal government. Nearly 100% of Bernie Sanders's $27-average contributions came from individuals who work in industries regulated by the Federal government. As with all difficult issues, the answers aren't as simple as some politicians like to imply.

  

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denny
Member since Apr 11th 2008
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Sat Apr-09-16 12:54 PM

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300. "Not for nothing....Hillary Clinton disagrees with you."
In response to Reply # 298
Sat Apr-09-16 12:56 PM by denny

          

She has claimed that her 'number one priority' will be campaign finance reform.

So she, herself, is literally promising that a candidate who finances their campaign in the way she is currently doing.....will, in fact, be disqualified. DISQUALIFIED.....not in the minds of voters in ethical/moral terms (as Bernie is suggesting)....but in very real legal terms.

I can be pragmatic enough to understand why she is promising to make her current campaign tactics ILLEGAL in the future. But you're refusal to acknowledge that there is anything problematic with that whatsoever is frustrating.

  

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stravinskian
Member since Feb 24th 2003
12698 posts
Sat Apr-09-16 01:14 PM

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302. "How are you being so dense here?"
In response to Reply # 300


          

>She has claimed that her 'number one priority' will be
>campaign finance reform.

As it should be! Barack Obama has said the same thing. He also had a superpac in 2012 (the same one supporting Hillary now), and raised money from Wall Street.

>I can be pragmatic enough to understand why she is promising
>to make her current campaign tactics ILLEGAL in the future.
>But you're refusal to acknowledge that there is anything
>problematic with that whatsoever is frustrating.

I never said there was nothing problematic about superpacs. Once again, you're mixing up the fundraising of the campaigns themselves with superpacs. Superpacs pose a serious risk to the future of our democracy, and we need to do everything we can to get Citizens United overturned (and, realistically, to find ways to regulate around it, so it doesn't become a white whale of a movement like Roe v. Wade has for conservatives). But we can't overturn it until we get elected, and as much as you think Bernie has changed things, he hasn't: to get elected, we will need to take advantage of superpacs while they exist.

  

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murph71
Member since Sep 15th 2005
23113 posts
Fri Apr-08-16 05:10 PM

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276. "RE: Why do you keep under-cutting the point here?"
In response to Reply # 256


          


Maybe we are talking about different things here...I'm talking about Bernie saying that Clinton having a Super Pac disqualifies her from running for President....I think that's silly....

Other than that, I don't think we are talking about the same things....

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

  

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denny
Member since Apr 11th 2008
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Sat Apr-09-16 12:02 PM

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296. "If you think that's silly than"
In response to Reply # 276


          

I have a hard time believing that you think it should be reformed.

Maybe you need to explain why you think it needs to be reformed (at the same time as claiming it's not problematic).

  

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stravinskian
Member since Feb 24th 2003
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Sat Apr-09-16 01:01 PM

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301. "You seem to think you've hit upon some kind of logical proof here."
In response to Reply # 296


          


You haven't. The resolution: the world is complicated. Gray comes in many shades.

  

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denny
Member since Apr 11th 2008
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Sat Apr-09-16 01:32 PM

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303. "It IS a logical conundrum for Clinton."
In response to Reply # 301


          

Unfortunately for her....she's up against a candidate who's not taking the money. Obama was not up against such a candidate so it wasn't a problem for him.

To say that this is not a logical conundrum for Clinton is just putting your head in the sand. She knows it's a problem. Her team knows it's a problem. The media (even the outlets that support her) know it's a problem. Bernie's unconventional campaign MAKES this a problem for her and everyone knows it.

The well's probably run dry here so agree to disagree and all that.

  

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SeV
Charter member
50209 posts
Thu Apr-07-16 12:08 PM

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194. "his lack of composure is what's troubling me the most"
In response to Reply # 164


  

          

Dude was obviously rattled after that interview started getting traction and went off on a emotional rant

Basically cracked at the 1st time he was being heavily scrutinized by the media

Not a good sign at all
____________

Dallas Cavericks LETS GO!!

  

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murph71
Member since Sep 15th 2005
23113 posts
Thu Apr-07-16 01:21 PM

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198. "RE: his lack of composure is what's troubling me the most"
In response to Reply # 194


          

>Dude was obviously rattled after that interview started
>getting traction and went off on a emotional rant
>
>Basically cracked at the 1st time he was being heavily
>scrutinized by the media
>
>Not a good sign at all

His camp's excuse is that the W. Post headline said it....lol

Bernie walked straight into a trap...This shit is politics 101.

U don't crucify a candidate off of headlines...Because 9 times out of 10 said headline is just mere click bate and has little to do with what a candidate actually says....And that's what happened...Bernie felt the pressure after that Daily News article...That interview was dissected and criticized by everyone from Vox, Slate, W.Post (who apparently loves Clinton), CNN, and even Morning Joe (who BTW has been very kind to Bernie)...And what does he do? He tries to find something to lash on to to stop the bleeding....But it's kind of backfired....And now he finds himself having to walk it back...

Bernie needs a better campaign team to give him advice...Because this wasn't a good look....No matter how he and his team tries to spin it...

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

  

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Dr Claw
Member since Jun 25th 2003
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Thu Apr-07-16 01:47 PM

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205. "Bernie is not a GOP plant. But this was a bad look."
In response to Reply # 164


  

          

in "soundbite" culture...something like this gets siced in .0000000000000025 sec

Yes, I'm mad. Let's move on.

Jays | Cavs | Eagles | Sabres | Tarheels

PSN: Dr_Claw_77 | XBL: Dr Claw 077 | FB: drclaw077 | T: @drclaw77 | http://thepeoplesvault.wordpress.com

  

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Mynoriti
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Thu Apr-07-16 02:29 PM

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211. "Yup. He should know how the media busts nuts over this kind of thing"
In response to Reply # 205


  

          

  

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Atillah Moor
Member since Sep 05th 2013
13825 posts
Thu Apr-07-16 07:55 AM

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168. "great avy"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

______________________________________

Everything looks like Oprah kissing Harvey Weinstein these days

  

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philpot
Member since Apr 01st 2007
21673 posts
Thu Apr-07-16 01:38 PM

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201. "the cognitive dissonance of being a Hillary supporter is gonna rip a lot..."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Of people apart on the inside

You can already see it happening in this post

Just wait until about 3 years into her Queenhood... people are gonna be feeling mighty strange about having supported what they are seeing

________________________________________________________________
whenever you did these things to the least of my brothers you did them to me

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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Thu Apr-07-16 03:07 PM

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214. "You are not from the states right?"
In response to Reply # 201


  

          


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

  

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philpot
Member since Apr 01st 2007
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Thu Apr-07-16 03:44 PM

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218. "RE: You are not from the states right?"
In response to Reply # 214


  

          

Wat?


VA born & bred bro

________________________________________________________________
whenever you did these things to the least of my brothers you did them to me

  

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Stadiq
Member since Dec 21st 2005
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Thu Apr-07-16 05:44 PM

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223. "they are either twisting themselves into pretzels"
In response to Reply # 201


          


...or showing their own true colors.

  

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SeV
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Thu Apr-07-16 03:44 PM

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217. "Ol Billy double downs on the superpredator shyt"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

The mask has slipped all the way off now

Looks like he about to go on a vacation

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2016/04/07/video_bill_clinton_philadelphia_black_lives_matter_protesters_gang_leaders.html

____________

Dallas Cavericks LETS GO!!

  

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stravinskian
Member since Feb 24th 2003
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Thu Apr-07-16 04:58 PM

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219. "The campaign's gonna have to have a talk with Bill, once again."
In response to Reply # 217


          


I understand how these kinds of protests would get him worked up. They really are criticisms of him more than of her. He's remembering that the crime bill had much broader support at the time, even among progressives. And he still seems to think people will generally give him the benefit of the doubt.

Bill has had a knack, both in '08 and now, of taking it personal and giving completely tone-deaf responses. I don't know how he should be responding to this kind of protest, but they should have been ready for it. Saying "the lives that you say matter" was a complete and utter fuckup.

  

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denny
Member since Apr 11th 2008
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Thu Apr-07-16 05:26 PM

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220. "I don't know what basis BLM is attacking them on."
In response to Reply # 219
Thu Apr-07-16 05:36 PM by denny

          

I kinda cringe when I hear the contention that B Clinton is a racist who conspired to sabotage the lives of black males. I believe it's a lot more complicated than that. Certainly, the outcome has been disastrous but I find the claims about his intentions to be a little out there. The sign being held up says 'Clinton crime bill ruined our communities'. The fact is....that's a solid argument. Regardless of intentions....that has been the outcome.

For him to invoke crack dealers using 13 year old hitmen? Well that's just fucking infuriating. The crime bill does not specify 'crackdealers who use 13 year olds as gunmen'. It specifies drug possession and intent to distribute, basically throwing these lives away (and the lives of their extended families) for non-violent crimes.

I don't want to be opportunistic about this. I don't believe that Clinton sought to destroy black communities. But it's certainly reasonable to suggest that was the result of his policies. And he's a fucking asshole for saying this shit and he should apologize for this disgusting characterization of, literally, millions of people who have served unjust prison sentences for drug offences. Did they ALL use 13 year olds as gunmen? Shame


  

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bentagain
Member since Mar 19th 2008
16595 posts
Thu Apr-07-16 10:52 PM

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232. "On Stone Mountain (Swipe)"
In response to Reply # 220


  

          

I posted this in one of the many political posts

didn't get any reply, so I'll leave this here for you

http://bostonreview.net/us/christopher-petrella-stone-mountain-white-supremacy-modern-democratic-party

http://revcom.us/i/429/BillClinton-Stone%20MtnAP_920303067-600.jpg

---------------------------------------------------------------

If you can't understand it without an explanation

you can't understand it with an explanation

  

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Stadiq
Member since Dec 21st 2005
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Thu Apr-07-16 05:41 PM

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222. "got damn, are you at least on her payroll???"
In response to Reply # 219


          

>
>I understand how these kinds of protests would get him worked
>up. They really are criticisms of him more than of her.

^^^^ Lulz I'm dying.

She is truly above criticism for some ya'll. Unreal.

Keep telling yourself she "grew up" from the predator comment, as if she was a teenager.

What a f*cking joke.



He's
>remembering that the crime bill had much broader support at
>the time, even among progressives. And he still seems to think
>people will generally give him the benefit of the doubt.


  

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Stadiq
Member since Dec 21st 2005
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Thu Apr-07-16 05:39 PM

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221. "wow, this is it huh?"
In response to Reply # 217


          


Ya'll still sipping that "Obama part 2" or is starting to taste bitter?

LULZ

The Clintons care about one thing, and one thing only.



  

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double 0
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226. "RE: Ol Billy double downs on the superpredator shyt"
In response to Reply # 217


          

That shit was silly...

BLM on twitter acting like its somehow some victory and ALSO going in on Killer Mike (not sure why).

but yea.. he..... gon have to apologize and play sax on Steve harvey show

Double 0
DJ/Producer/Artist
Producer in Kidz In The Hall
-------------------------------------------
twitter: @godouble0
IG: @godouble0
www.thinklikearapper.com

  

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Dr Claw
Member since Jun 25th 2003
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Thu Apr-07-16 08:23 PM

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228. "lmmfao. I suppose we're not supposed to 'be in our feelings' about this"
In response to Reply # 217


  

          

SMH.

This dude done switched out his saxophone for one of those Cliven Bundy hats

  

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Mansa Musa
Member since Feb 16th 2009
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Thu Apr-07-16 09:15 PM

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229. "He actually said "a place where black lives matter: Africa""
In response to Reply # 228
Thu Apr-07-16 09:31 PM by Mansa Musa

          

He might as well have said "you coloreds don't know how good you have it over here."

Also, as to his comment on HIV/AIDs, his long friendship with the mass murderer Paul Kagame cancels out any good the Clinton Foundation has done in Africa:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/jul/25/paul-kagame-rwanda-us-britain

  

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CRichMonkey
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Thu Apr-07-16 10:02 PM

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231. "You forget who Bill Clinton is... "
In response to Reply # 217


  

          

He ain't here for that #BLM shit. You think he's worried about some twenty-somethings with signs?

Nah.

He used those protestors to remind upstate New Yorkers and central Pennsylvanians that the Clintons are still white and they're still on their team.

Bill Clinton is the singularly most gifted politician of our generation and they came for him... but they're not old enough to remember Sister Soulja.

BLM played checkers, Bill played chess.


my avy: Deep in your heart, you know he's right: http://coreyrichardsonneedsajob.com/
my hustle: http://SupaSoulSounds.com

*RIP: John T. "220v" Richardson, Blessing Benson, and Dilla*

  

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SeV
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233. "he ain't playing with chess he playing with fire"
In response to Reply # 231


  

          

There's no need in this part of the game to cater to suburban white folks


This shyt going to do more harm than good

She going to have to answer questions about this all the way up to the debate now




____________

Dallas Cavericks LETS GO!!

  

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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
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Fri Apr-08-16 08:11 AM

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236. "lmao... slick willy aint so slick these days"
In response to Reply # 233


          

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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murph71
Member since Sep 15th 2005
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Fri Apr-08-16 08:20 AM

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242. "RE: You forget who Bill Clinton is... "
In response to Reply # 231


          



Nah...Bill gotta step carefully on this.....While he is correct that the Crime Bill was something that was pushed by damn near EVERYONE from black politicians and clergymen and neighborhood activists to a damn near majority of Dems, his body language matters....Clinton could have made his point without wagging his finger at the BLM kids...

U already know behind the scenes they put the leash back on Billy Clint....

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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248. "Politically, I think it was a solid move. I think you called it. "
In response to Reply # 231


  

          


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

  

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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
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Fri Apr-08-16 09:23 AM

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252. "Obama isnt running against her"
In response to Reply # 248
Fri Apr-08-16 09:24 AM by legsdiamond

          

I don't see anyone changing their vote to Hillary Clinton because he went at BLM

any inroads Hilldawg was trying to make with black youth is now toast.

He fucked up.

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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Teknontheou
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253. "The states with big Black populations are done with, though."
In response to Reply # 252


  

          

  

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murph71
Member since Sep 15th 2005
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Fri Apr-08-16 10:32 AM

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255. "RE: The states with big Black populations are done with, though."
In response to Reply # 253


          


California, New York, Penn?

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

  

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ambient1
Member since May 23rd 2007
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Fri Apr-08-16 10:48 AM

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257. "MD"
In response to Reply # 255


  

          

=======================================
Coolin...

  

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Teknontheou
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258. "Those states' Black populations pale in comparison to SC, GA, "
In response to Reply # 255
Fri Apr-08-16 10:51 AM by Teknontheou

  

          

MS, AL, etc. (I mean proportionally - there probably are more actual Black people in New York than Mississippi).

The thing is, almost all the Democrats in the deep south are Black: white non-transplants in the deep south don't vote Democratic. But there are plenty of white Democrats in the states you mentioned, probably more of them than Black democrats.

  

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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
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266. "bruh, she coulda slapped a black baby in the south and still woulda won "
In response to Reply # 258


          

the black vote. She has Black southern voters on lock but that doesn't mean she can ignore/split the black vote and win primaries vs Sanders in northern states.

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
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Fri Apr-08-16 01:44 PM

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265. "she still needs the black vote in cities like Philly, LA, Oak, NYC, etc"
In response to Reply # 253


          

or she may end up with another Michigan on her hands

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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274. "Black Youth Vote?!? What's that??!?!"
In response to Reply # 252


  

          

They don't come out to vote. It's black older people that vote. And Bubba sounded like something an older black person would say about BLM.


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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225. "This is my nightmare. HTC losing to kaisaich "
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

http://feeds.huffingtonpost.com/c/35496/f/677045/s/4ecc3b39/sc/7/l/0L0Shuffingtonpost0N0Cseth0Eabramson0Cjohn0Ekasich0Ewill0Ebe0Ethe0Er0Ib0I96385980Bhtml/story01.htm**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

  

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stravinskian
Member since Feb 24th 2003
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Thu Apr-07-16 08:10 PM

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227. "Why do you keep reading that empty headed dude?"
In response to Reply # 225


          

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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246. "Wait, am I reading articles by the same guy over and over?"
In response to Reply # 227


  

          


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

  

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stravinskian
Member since Feb 24th 2003
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Fri Apr-08-16 09:43 AM

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254. "Post 1."
In response to Reply # 246


          

  

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Mynoriti
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Thu Apr-07-16 11:42 PM

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234. "Is he being serious or is that just an establishment fantasy?"
In response to Reply # 225


  

          

Because he completely ignores Trump and Cruz supporters as if they're just gonna fall in line and get behind the 3rd place guy. One of the biggest things that draws them to Trump and Cruz to begin with is that they're sick of guys like Kasich, Romney, etc..

He doesn't even mention Trump's likely reaction, like if he would somehow just quietly go away or rally his people to Kasich

It's pretty ridiculous

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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247. "The thing is, I strongly believe that if Trump doesn't seal the"
In response to Reply # 234


  

          

deal, there will be contested Convention and someone else will get the Nod.

I doubt it will be Cruz because that will drive Trump supporters Crazy.

I also truly think that Trump really doesn't want to be President. He just wants to show the establishment that he COULD be president if he wanted it. I think he could be convince to get behind someone other than Cruz if they properly kiss the ring.

I don't see Trump launching third party bid.


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

  

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murph71
Member since Sep 15th 2005
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Fri Apr-08-16 09:10 AM

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251. "RE: The thing is, I strongly believe that if Trump doesn't seal the"
In response to Reply # 247


          


>I don't see Trump launching third party bid.

lol....That's where u r wrong homie....Trump's followers will not allow him to bow out...They are the engine of the Republican base...THEY fuel the party...

And let's just say u turn out right on this, Buddy....Do u actually think that the 34 to 39 percent of the Trump voters are going to turn around and vote for Paul Ryan????? Or fucking Cruz?....

Nah dog....

GOP loses big in the general either way....

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

  

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Mynoriti
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262. "You have it backwards. Even if you're right and Trump doesnt want it"
In response to Reply # 247


  

          

(which i've thought about myself)

Third party would be his BEST way to lose.
If he gets the nomination and loses in the general he's seen as the worst candidate in history.
If he gets pushed out and does nothing, they got the best of him.
But if he goes third party, he can get revenge on the party for pushing him out. He can't point to millions of votes he got all on his own. He can show the world he went down swinging.
And he doesn't have to deal with the headache of being president. It's easy for him to do because he doesn't give a fuck if Hillary wins. He can still troll her.

The republican party can survive a Trump or Cruz L. It will probably be good for them. They'll have proof guys like this are disastrous in general elections, they can go back to their original strategy of trying to at least pretend be more inclusive. Something they did, and just regroup around Paul Ryan or one of those asshats.


  

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murph71
Member since Sep 15th 2005
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Fri Apr-08-16 08:13 AM

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238. "Yo Buddy...."
In response to Reply # 225


          



Slow down...lol.....It's going to be OK....

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

  

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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
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Fri Apr-08-16 08:17 AM

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241. "get yer snake oil lotion "
In response to Reply # 238


          

2 fer 1...

or 3 fer 5

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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murph71
Member since Sep 15th 2005
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Fri Apr-08-16 08:27 AM

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243. "RE: get yer snake oil lotion "
In response to Reply # 241


          



Dog...when I read pieces like that I just check out...lol

There are so many factors that goes into who the GOP will nominate....And the biggest factor? TRUMP...

It does't matter what happens...They pick Cruz, Trump will run as a third party...Paul Ryan? Trump will run as a third party...Hell, don't even mention Kasich......Because the GOP will never nominate him even on a 3rd, 4th ballot....Because they are too fractured and, on the real, are not very smart....

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

  

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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
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Fri Apr-08-16 08:45 AM

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249. "I clicked the link, read the title and closed that shit"
In response to Reply # 243


          

wasted a few kilobytes on that bullshit

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
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Fri Apr-08-16 08:14 AM

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239. "bruh, wtf you smoking to have nightmares like that?"
In response to Reply # 225


          

bro, you really be reaching

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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261. "Thing is, I mostly don't care EXCEPT for the supreme court"
In response to Reply # 239


  

          


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

  

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murph71
Member since Sep 15th 2005
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Thu Apr-07-16 09:31 PM

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230. "Obama warns Dems against 'Tea Party mentality' (SWIPE)"
In response to Reply # 0


          



I mean, if Obeezy said it, it must be true...right? Don't mind me, folks....I'm about to check out these episodes of Better Call Saul....

--


Obama warns Dems against 'Tea Party mentality'
The Hill

By Jordan Fabian - 04/07/16 05:24 PM EDT

President Obama on Thursday warned Democrats against adopting a “Tea Party mentality” that could lead to deep divisions within the party and harm its chances of winning national elections.

Following the rise of the Tea Party and Donald Trump, Obama said infighting within the Republican Party is much worse than it is on the Democratic side.

But he urged his party’s voters to be mindful of that danger in the midst of a heated primary battle between Hillary Clinton and Bernie Sanders.

“The thing Democrats have to guard against is going in the direction that the Republicans are much further along on, and that is this sense 'we are just going to get our way, and if we don’t, then we’ll cannibalize our own, kick them out and try again,' ” he said at a town-hall meeting with law students in Chicago.

In that scenario, Democrats could “stake out positions so extreme, they alienate the broad public,” Obama added. “I don’t see that being where the Democrats go, but it’s always something we have to pay attention to.”

Obama’s comments come amid a major dustup between Clinton and Sanders that has Democrats concerned about keeping their party unified.

Sanders on Wednesday accused Clinton of being not “qualified” to serve as president because of her willingness to use a super-PAC and support for the Iraq War and free trade agreements.

The president did not name Clinton or Sanders. But he offered a staunch defense of his incrementalist view of politics, which has sometimes come under fire from the Vermont senator.

"That’s how change generally happens,” he said, citing the example of his signature healthcare law.

“It’s not perfect. There is no public option, not single-payer,” he said. “If I was designing a system from scratch, it would have been more elegant. But that’s not what was possible in our democracy."

The president also sought to downplay the divisions between Clinton and Sanders.

He said the debate among Democrats is “is a little bit more about means, less about ends,” noting that both candidates broadly agree on issues like the need for universal healthcare and combating climate change.

Obama said he understood the populist sentiment that has driven Sanders’s candidacy. But he said the answer is not to abandon a compromise approach.

“The danger, whether for Democrats or Republicans, is in a closed-loop system where everybody is just listening to the people who agree with them,” he said.

“And that anybody who suggests there is another point of view ... well, then you must be a sellout or you must be corrupted or you must be on the take or what have you," he added. "That is not, I think, useful.”

Obama could be a unifying figure for Democrats in this fall's election.

His approval ratings are at 50 percent or higher in most opinion polls, making him the most popular figure in his party.

But the ongoing primary battle has kept Obama officially off the campaign trail, though he has used his bully pulpit to go after Trump and other GOP candidates.

In speaking to Democrats, the president played the role of party elder. He said has seen this type of mentality bubbling up among Democrats throughout his presidency and is well versed in home harmful it can be.

“A lot of Democrats supported me and still support me got frustrated is because a bunch of the country doesn’t agree with me or them and they have votes too. And they elect members of Congress. That’s how our democracy works," Obama said.

“If you don’t get everything you want, it’s not always because the person you elected sold you out," he continued. "It may just be because in our system, you end up taking half loaves."

Obama was speaking at an event at the University of Chicago Law School where he urged Senate Republicans to take up the nomination of his Supreme Court nominee, Merrick Garland.

link: http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/275546-obama-warns-dems-against-tea-party-mentality

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

  

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Dr Claw
Member since Jun 25th 2003
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Fri Apr-08-16 03:37 PM

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273. "he should warn Dems against 'Howard Dean' mentality"
In response to Reply # 230


  

          

after this cycle, the "Tea Party" shit might end up happening, especially if the GOP catches another L in the presidential election

  

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Mansa Musa
Member since Feb 16th 2009
382 posts
Fri Apr-08-16 07:43 AM

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235. "Sanders beats Clinton nationally in new Atlantic/PRRI poll"
In response to Reply # 0


          

The most striking result: "Only one-third of women under the age of 50 want Clinton to be the Democratic nominee, the poll found."

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/04/a-sanders-surge-in-polling-if-not-delegates/477198/?utm_source=SFTwitter

Sanders Catches Clinton

Russell Berman April 7, 2016

Hillary Clinton may have amassed a nearly insurmountable lead in delegates, but rank-and-file Democrats are now virtually split between her and Bernie Sanders over which candidate should be their party’s presidential nominee, according to a new PRRI / The Atlantic poll.

Sanders had the support of 47 percent of Democratic or Democratic-leaning voters while Clinton had 46 percent—a narrow gap that fell within the poll’s 2.5 percent margin of error. The national survey was conducted in the days before the Vermont senator handily defeated the former secretary of state in the Wisconsin primary, and it tracks other polls in the last week that found Sanders erasing Clinton’s edge across the country. In a poll that PRRI conducted in January, Clinton had a 20-point lead.

Democrats are sharply divided by age and by party loyalty. Sanders is strongly preferred by younger voters, both women and men, while Clinton does better with older voters and those who closely identify with the Democratic Party. Sanders, by contrast, runs strong among weaker partisans and independents—a finding that has also been reflected in exit polls taken after people have already cast their votes.

The gap in party loyalty might explain why Clinton has been highlighting Sanders’s tenuous past connection to the Democratic Party in recent days. “He’s a relatively new Democrat,” Clinton told Politico’s Glenn Thrush in a podcast interview published on Wednesday. “I’m not even sure he is one.” She repeated the message in two separate television interviews later in the morning. “Senator Sanders, by his own admission, has never even been a Democrat,” she said on CNN. Sanders describes himself as a Democratic socialist and has won election in Vermont as an independent, although he caucuses with Democrats in the Senate. He considered running for president as an independent before determining he had a better chance of spreading his message in the Democratic primary.

Clinton has a 21-point advantage among Democrats with a strong attachment to the party, the poll found, while Sanders leads 61 percent to 32 percent among Democratic-leaning independents. The age gap was equally as large. Nearly three-quarters of voters ages 18-29 backed Sanders, and two-thirds of seniors support Clinton. Sanders’s strength among younger voters has allowed him to close Clinton’s lead with women; 46 percent back her to 44 percent for Sanders. Only one-third of women under the age of 50 want Clinton to be the Democratic nominee, the poll found. “It really is age more than gender that makes the difference here,” said Robert P. Jones, who directed the poll for the Public Religion Research Institute, a Washington-based nonpartisan think tank. Sanders leads by nine points among white Democrats, while Clinton has a nearly two-to-one edge among African Americans. The candidates are essentially tied among Hispanic Democrats.

In the race for the GOP nomination, Donald Trump held a six-point lead over Senator Ted Cruz among Republican and Republican-leaning voters, the poll found. Ohio Governor John Kasich had the support of 23 percent of respondents. What separates Cruz and Trump? According to the survey, their respective supporters differ more in their views about race and gender than in their economic status. Trump supporters (68 percent) were more likely than Cruz supports (57 percent) to say that American society has become too “soft and feminine”; that the government paid too much attention to black people (55 percent Trump, 38 percent Cruz); and that they are bothered by immigrants who speak little or no English (64 percent Trump, 46 percent Cruz).

The poll did find widespread opposition to one of Trump’s most well-known and controversial proposals: his call to temporarily ban all non-citizen Muslims from entering the U.S. “We see that being pretty soundly rejected across the board,” Jones said. Even among Trump supporters, fewer than half supported the Muslim ban.

At the same time, nearly two-thirds of Trump backers agreed with the statement that the nation has gone so far off the wrong track that it needs a leader “willing to break the rules” to set things right. Just four-in-10 Cruz supporters agreed with that statement, and fewer than half of the other candidates’ supporters did either.

The poll found a sharp divide among supporters of the two leading candidates in both parties, although there was more animosity on the GOP side. More than six-in-10 Trump supporters have an unfavorable view of Cruz, and a nearly identical percentage of Cruz supporters have an unfavorable view of Trump. Among Democrats, a majority of Clinton supporters have a favorable view of Sanders, while just 43 percent of Sanders backers have a favorable view of Clinton.

Donald Hoskin, a 77-year-old Trump supporter from Missouri, praised the businessman’s policies on immigration and trade. “He’s out of the Washington clique,” Hoskin said. He was less enamored of Cruz. “He’s a true politician,” Hoskin said of the Texas senator. “Sneaky.”

  

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maryhattalillamb
Member since May 27th 2006
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Fri Apr-08-16 12:27 PM

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259. "The Clinton Body Count"
In response to Reply # 0


          

https://www.truthorfiction.com/clintonfriends/

Any truth to this?

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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260. "^^^YAAAs, it was only a matter of time before we start treading"
In response to Reply # 259


  

          

in this terrortory.


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

  

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stravinskian
Member since Feb 24th 2003
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264. "*bangs head on desk*"
In response to Reply # 259


          


You'd think they would have at least updated the webpage from Y2K-era html.

  

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Mynoriti
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268. "Post 230"
In response to Reply # 259


  

          

  

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maryhattalillamb
Member since May 27th 2006
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270. "Some say she had smthg to do with BErta Caceres death as well"
In response to Reply # 268


          

http://www.salon.com/2016/03/18/hillary_must_answer_for_honduras_partner/


This is not a "obama is a Muslim" witchhunt
No other candidate running has these type of rumors surrounding them
And 3 of the 5 have been publicly known much longer than Hillary

  

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stravinskian
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Fri Apr-08-16 03:13 PM

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269. "Turns out Bernie's 'Papal visit' would be very similar to Kim Davis's."
In response to Reply # 0


          

Money quote from the president of the organization they supposedly invited him:

"On Friday, Archer slammed Sanders’ 'monumental dishonesty,' telling Bloomberg that Sanders was the one who had made the first move regarding the meeting 'for obvious reasons.'"

http://www.politico.com/story/2016/04/bernie-sanders-vatican-conference-221708

Sanders visit to Vatican sows confusion

The Vermont senator said he was ‘invited’ to speak at a conference. But organizers are disputing that.

By NOLAN D. MCCASKILL and DANIEL STRAUSS 04/08/16 07:55 AM EDT
Updated 04/08/16 02:20 PM EDT

Bernie Sanders announced proudly on Friday that the Vatican had invited him to speak at an upcoming conference in Vatican City, and he seemed to imply that the invitation had been issued by Pope Francis himself.

The Vermont senator's presidential campaign emailed reporters on Friday morning to announce that he had been invited to the event, a conference on "social, economic and environmental issues." The conference, organized by the Pontifical Academy of Social Sciences, will be held on April 15 — just days before the crucial New York primary, in which Sanders is hoping to upset his rival Hillary Clinton in her home state.

The conference also includes two controversial leftist Latin American presidents, Rafael Correa of Ecuador and Evo Morales of Bolivia, as well as Columbia University economist Jeffrey Sachs.

Sanders appeared on MSNBC’s “Morning Joe” shortly after the announcement, clearly relishing in the reflected glow of one of the most admired men in the world, and someone with whom he shares a good deal of ideological overlap.

"How did this come about?" co-host Mika Brzezinski said of the invitation.

"It was an invitation from the Vatican," Sanders replied.

"That's kind of impressive," Brzezinski said.

"It is," Sanders replied.

“I am a big, big fan of the pope,” he continued. “Obviously, there are areas where we disagree, on like women’s rights or gay rights, but he has played an unbelievable role — an unbelievable role — of injecting the moral consequence into the economy.”

But the invitation was actually made by Marcelo Sánchez Sorondo, the chancellor of the pontifical academy, an autonomous institution that receives some funding from the Holy See but is not officially part of it.

In a March 30 letter inviting Sanders to the event, Sánchez Sorondo wrote, "On behalf of the President, Professor Margaret Archer, the Organizers, and as Chancellor, I am very happy to invite you to attend the meeting on 'Centesimus Annus: 25 Years Later.' The meeting, which is humanitarian in its objects, will be held at the Casina Pio IV, the headquarters of the Pontifical Academy of Social Sciences, from 15 to 16 April 2016."

On Friday, Archer slammed Sanders’ “monumental dishonesty,” telling Bloomberg that Sanders was the one who had made the first move regarding the meeting “for obvious reasons.”

“I think in a sense he may be going for the Catholic vote, but this is not the Catholic vote and he should remember that and act accordingly — not that he will,” Archer said. It was not clear to what "dishonesty" Archer was referring, and requests for comment to her office were not returned.

Asked why Sanders claimed the Vatican had invited him to the conference, the Sanders campaign referred POLITICO to Michael Shank, a media consultant who works with Sachs and said he "occasionally" handles press relations for Vatican conferences.

Reports that Sanders himself said that Pope Francis had invited him were incorrect, Shank said, but he argued that the invitation had effectively come from the Vatican. "The PASS is part of the Vatican. So the senator is right when he says the Vatican invited him," he said.

The Rev. Federico Lombardi, director of the Vatican Press Office, told POLITICO, "My information is very simple: the invitation came from the Pontifical Academy of Social Sciences for the Meeting 'Centesimus Annus — 25 Years Later.' Therefore we cannot say that it is an invitation from the pope, but from a Vatican institution."

Sanders also clarified to The New York Times that it hadn't been confirmed whether there would be a one-on-one sit-down meeting with the pontiff himself.

Sanders' senior strategist, Tad Devine, told MSNBC later Friday he couldn't comment on the mix-up because he didn't have all the details.

"But I'll tell you this: I know the politics of the New York primary are extraordinarily complicated," he said. "As a lifelong practicing Roman Catholic, I can't even imagine how complicated the politics of the Vatican are, so I'm gonna find out before I say anything on that issue."

The pontifical academy was founded in 1994 by Pope John Paul II but is an autonomous body. It maintains close ties to the Roman Catholic Church. According to its website, "For its operating expenses, the Academy receives financial support from a special Foundation for the Promotion of the Social Sciences and from donations and gifts. At present, when these means are not sufficient, the Holy See covers the rest of the budget."

News of the invitation comes as the pope releases new guidelines that encourage the church to show more understanding to modern realities. In the guidelines, for example, the pope calls for gay people to be respected, though he vigorously opposes gay marriage in the doctrine.


  

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Eric B Is Prez
Member since Nov 08th 2005
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271. "The whole thing sounds extremely convoluted"
In response to Reply # 269


  

          

But I love how you somehow managed to draw a parallel between Bernie Sanders and Kim Davis

_______________________________________________________________________________________

  

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PimpTrickGangstaClik
Member since Oct 06th 2005
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Fri Apr-08-16 03:32 PM

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272. "*sigh* Can it be November already?"
In response to Reply # 269


          

I'm tired of this stuff (and the equivalent on the Clinton, Trump, Cruz sides) clogging up my airways and newsfeeds.

_______________________________________

  

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philpot
Member since Apr 01st 2007
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Fri Apr-08-16 06:57 PM

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279. "for someone who claims to value logic"
In response to Reply # 269


  

          

You sure don't mind ignoring it for your agenda

________________________________________________________________
whenever you did these things to the least of my brothers you did them to me

  

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stravinskian
Member since Feb 24th 2003
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Fri Apr-08-16 07:46 PM

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280. "LOL I'm sure there was a reason in your head for choosing that as a resp..."
In response to Reply # 279


          


Bernie wanted to associate himself with a popular Pope. The campaign requested some kind of audience, any kind of audience. An invitation finally comes in from the Pontifical Academy of Social Sciences (not the Holy See, and it doesn't imply any kind of audience with the Pope). They jump at the opportunity to bring attention to it, even implying that the invitation came from the Vatican, and in the process directly insult the Academy that made the invitation.

And now they need to figure out a way to either work around it or to squirm out of it, since it'll take up two crucial campaigning days between the NY debate and the primary.

He's just a gaffe machine this week. And this one was a complete, unforced clusterfuck.

No big deal. It's not like the Daily News interview, or, to be evenhanded, like Bill's dumbfuck reaction to the BLM protestors. It's just a bit of fun.

  

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PimpTrickGangstaClik
Member since Oct 06th 2005
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281. "Whose story should we believe? (swipe)"
In response to Reply # 280


          

Actually, who gives a damn.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-election-vatican-idUSKCN0X5257

Papal official denies report Sanders invited himself to Vatican

U.S. Democratic presidential candidate Bernie Sanders was invited to speak at an April 15 Vatican event by the Vatican, a senior papal official said on Friday, denying a report that Sanders had invited himself.

"I deny that. It was not that way," Monsignor Marcelo Sanchez Sorondo told Reuters in a telephone interview while he was traveling in New York. Sorondo, a close aide to Pope Francis, is chancellor of the Pontifical Academy of Social Sciences, which is hosting the event.

He said it was his idea to invite Sanders.

A Bloomberg report quoted Margaret Archer, president of the Pontifical Academy of Social Sciences, as saying that Sanders had broken with protocol by failing to contact her office first.

"This is not true and she knows it. I invited him with her consensus," said Sorondo, who is senior to Archer.

An invitation to Sanders dated March 30, which was emailed to Reuters, was signed by Sorondo and also included Archer's name.

_______________________________________

  

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philpot
Member since Apr 01st 2007
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Fri Apr-08-16 08:05 PM

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282. "RE: LOL I'm sure there was a reason in your head for choosing that as a ..."
In response to Reply # 280


  

          

all the defending of Clintons shortcomings & here you are making mountains out of molehills

Somehow connecting Kim Davis & Bernie in some bizarre Vatican based conspiracy

It's all too much for me

________________________________________________________________
whenever you did these things to the least of my brothers you did them to me

  

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stravinskian
Member since Feb 24th 2003
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Fri Apr-08-16 08:13 PM

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283. "I'm not making a mountain out of it. I literally said it's "no big deal...."
In response to Reply # 282


          


To be honest the Hillary shills really should still be spending their time on the disastrous Daily News interview and getting a few last twists of the knife in over the sexist "not qualified" comments. But I'm not a Hillary shill, so I'm taking a break from that stuff.

I just thought this was a bit of entertainment.

And no reasonable person can seriously dispute that they completely fucked up this rollout. Whether they asked to be invited or not, they should have handled this better. And they should have thought a little harder about whether the candidate would be available to fly to Vatican City on April 15 (the day after the debate in what they would agree is the most important primary of all) to speak at an academic conference.

  

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philpot
Member since Apr 01st 2007
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Fri Apr-08-16 08:15 PM

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284. "more giant leaps of logic in defense of agenda "
In response to Reply # 283


  

          

Sad

________________________________________________________________
whenever you did these things to the least of my brothers you did them to me

  

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stravinskian
Member since Feb 24th 2003
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Fri Apr-08-16 08:20 PM

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286. "oooooooooooookeydokey..."
In response to Reply # 284


          

  

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philpot
Member since Apr 01st 2007
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Fri Apr-08-16 09:36 PM

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287. "RE: oooooooooooookeydokey..."
In response to Reply # 286


  

          

Your charges of sexism about Bernie are baseless & you know it but other things are more important to you

The Clinton Crime Family has resorted to a serial sexual predator calling Bernie sexist & having a coming out party to appeal to Blue Dogs

________________________________________________________________
whenever you did these things to the least of my brothers you did them to me

  

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stravinskian
Member since Feb 24th 2003
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Fri Apr-08-16 09:41 PM

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288. "You're in some kinda mood. That's okay."
In response to Reply # 287


          

  

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Mynoriti
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275. "This whole election season just makes me wish we could keep Obama"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

picturing each of these candidates in the white house, i only see different variations of disappointment.

  

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mrhood75
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Fri Apr-08-16 06:16 PM

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277. "I remember everyone said the same thing about Bill Clinton in '00"
In response to Reply # 275


  

          

The whole "Clinton fatigue" thing was pretty much Republican propaganda/spin. He was much, much more popular than Gore or Dubya during the lead up to November, and even during all the post-election counting chads horse shit. That, of course, got us Dubya. This time I figure Trump & Cruz are such awful candidates that Hilary (or Bernie) wins out regardless.

We don't know what we got 'til it's gone.

-----------------

www.albumism.com

Checkin' Our Style, Return To Zero:

https://www.mixcloud.com/returntozero/

  

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mrhood75
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Fri Apr-08-16 06:18 PM

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278. "Bill Clinton: I almost want to apologize to BLM, but I won't"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

http://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2016-election/bill-clinton-i-almost-want-apologize-exchange-black-lives-matter-n553086

Fucking lame, dude.

-----------------

www.albumism.com

Checkin' Our Style, Return To Zero:

https://www.mixcloud.com/returntozero/

  

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stravinskian
Member since Feb 24th 2003
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Fri Apr-08-16 08:17 PM

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285. "Look at Paul Ryan running for president!"
In response to Reply # 0


          


This'll be fun!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECxH4uIswiA

Honestly, I think he would be the strongest candidate they could field at this point. So I'm not really happy about this. I am definitely looking forward to seeing the reactions from the Trump supporters at the convention, though.

  

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Doomdata21
Member since Jul 21st 2002
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Sat Apr-09-16 09:54 AM

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289. "Gordon Gekko feels the Bern lol"
In response to Reply # 0
Sat Apr-09-16 09:54 AM by Doomdata21

  

          

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8wAa9DqHZtM

The man makes it plain and check my dude in the white shirt catch the holy ghost. Bernie's plans are sound and executable.

**Sig**
-Blackthought is the dopest emcee alive
-Uncle Sam and Santa Clause are good buddies.
-Be selfless and the world will be a better place.

  

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denny
Member since Apr 11th 2008
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Sat Apr-09-16 11:16 AM

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291. "Honestly have not heard that argument framed that way before."
In response to Reply # 289


          

Velocity of money eh? Interesting. Makes sense.

  

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stravinskian
Member since Feb 24th 2003
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Sat Apr-09-16 11:24 AM

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292. "Well that's just basic economics, and it's been a standard Dem argument...."
In response to Reply # 291


          


for decades.

  

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denny
Member since Apr 11th 2008
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Sat Apr-09-16 11:52 AM

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295. "Clinton's marginal tax increase for the 1% didn't even come close."
In response to Reply # 292
Sat Apr-09-16 11:59 AM by denny

          

My understanding is that he didn't redistribute wealth....his solution was to encourage loans for the lower middle class. Big difference from what Bernie's saying.

The 1% were taxed at a rate of 70% before Reagan. 28% during Reagan. 39% during Clinton.

  

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Mansa Musa
Member since Feb 16th 2009
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Sat Apr-09-16 02:01 PM

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305. "It's just old-fashioned Keynesian liberalism"
In response to Reply # 289
Sat Apr-09-16 02:04 PM by Mansa Musa

          

I.e., the government should stimulate aggregate demand through counter-cyclical public spending, progressive taxation, and expanding the social wage. All of these policies put more money in the pockets of working-class people, who (unlike economic elites) will plow it immediately back into housing, consumer goods, and other things that stimulate economic growth. They won't hoard it, or invest it abroad, or engage in large-scale financial speculation.

It's the opposite of the supply-side view, which says that you should cut taxes and deregulate, so that economic elites are able to accumulate more, because they are the "job creators." Never mind how few jobs they are actually creating. Rising inequality isn't a problem for supply-siders. It's a sign that the economy is doing well.

Clinton isn't advocating supply-side economics, but I do think that Sanders' policies would do more to reduce inequality and stimulate the economy.

  

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Mansa Musa
Member since Feb 16th 2009
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Sat Apr-09-16 03:29 PM

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306. "Sanders is about to win Wyoming"
In response to Reply # 0
Sat Apr-09-16 03:37 PM by Mansa Musa

          

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/live/2016/apr/09/clinton-sanders-wyoming-caucus-trump-cruz-colorado-election-news-convention

He's up 56.4-43.6, with 78% reporting.

  

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maryhattalillamb
Member since May 27th 2006
149 posts
Sat Apr-09-16 07:38 PM

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307. "Bernie wins WY 56/44 but might come home with less delegates"
In response to Reply # 0


          

And this is now 7 of the last 8 won by Bernie

  

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Mr. ManC
Member since Jan 26th 2009
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310. "Bernie came to the Apollo!"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

And got the full Harlem experience.

Plenty of love in the room, and the panel was dope (shout out to Belafonte)


He even got stepped to by a Black Hebrew Israelite and dealt with it way better than a Clinton vs BLM.

It was a dope event and occasion. I even got interviewed by the local paper in Burlington, VT. Overall it was lit #sienteelfuego

________________________________________________
R.I.P. Soulgyal <3
SUPA NERD LLC.
Knowledge Meets Nature
Musica Negra
#13irteen

  

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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
79560 posts
Mon Apr-11-16 11:24 AM

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313. "Black Hebrews stepped to Bernie..lmao at the visual"
In response to Reply # 310


          

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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denny
Member since Apr 11th 2008
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312. "There certainly seems to be a Trump fatigue eh?"
In response to Reply # 0
Mon Apr-11-16 03:24 AM by denny

          

Even though the map is favorable to him for the next bit....I wonder where he goes from here. He's been kinda quiet as of late. Perhaps sensing that fatigue?

My prediction is that he will double-down on the baiting to keep the persecution theme going. So he'll manufacture a possible scandal....leak some sort of misleading information that suggests he made a huge mistake.....wait for Cruz to pounce on it....then magically provide evidence which shows it to be untrue. Follow that up with a triumphant declaration of a conspiracy to keep him from the nomination. The problem for him is that the other campaigns (well, Cruz specifically) might be getting hip to these tactics. Cruz would be smart to be wary of any dangling carrot.

And god dammit....I still can't believe the Cruz quote about using law enforcement to patrol and secure muslim neighborhoods. We haven't really even addressed that much in this thread. That we've gotten to a point where someone says something SO fucking outrageous without much acknowledgement in these threads just shows how surreal this shit has become.

  

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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
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Mon Apr-11-16 11:26 AM

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314. "Trump should win NY easily"
In response to Reply # 312


          

but it sure seems like the media has moved on from the free Trump hype they were giving him early on

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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