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Subject: "What Bernie Sanders Has Achieved | New Yorker" Previous topic | Next topic
Vex_id
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"What Bernie Sanders Has Achieved | New Yorker"


          

A well-pointed piece highlighting what many have been saying about the life expectancy of the Sanders message and how it very well could resonate in electoral cycles to come - particularly in local/mid-term elections where it's imperative that seat-changes occur across the nation.

http://www.newyorker.com/news/john-cassidy/what-bernie-sanders-has-achieved

"In reaching out to the young, the idealistic, and the disillusioned, he has earned far more votes than virtually anybody in the Democratic Party (or the punditry) expected. He has expanded the political space, bringing controversial issues like rising inequality and political corruption, which had previously been considered the province of leftists and policy wonks, into their rightful place at the center of the discussion. And by refusing to accept corporate money and basing his campaign on individual donations, he has reinvigorated American democracy.

That it didn’t quite work out doesn’t detract from the impact Sanders has had. To gauge his influence, you need only listen to one of Clinton’s campaign speeches. On issues like inequality, trade, the environment, corporate offshoring, and bringing Wall Street miscreants to justice, the former Secretary of State has adopted Sanders’s language—and, in some cases, his policies. Clinton had undoubtedly always intended to run as a center-left progressive in 2016, just as she did in 2008, but Sanders has forced her onto ground she hadn’t originally intended to occupy.

Sanders’s other big theme is money in politics. Particularly since the Citizens United ruling, many politicians, Clinton included, have warned of the corrosive effects of big money on our democracy. But nobody has made the argument as passionately or as powerfully as Sanders. “American democracy is not about billionaires being able to buy candidates and elections,” he said in launching his campaign. “It is not about the Koch brothers, Sheldon Adelson, and other incredibly wealthy individuals spending billions of dollars to elect candidates who will make the rich richer and everyone else poorer…. This is not democracy. This is oligarchy.”

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Topic Outline
Subject Author Message Date ID
which is the argument for him to stay in the race
Mar 19th 2016
1
all the way to the convention.
Mar 20th 2016
16
What I've learned......
Mar 19th 2016
2
It is interesting to note the diff. between America and Canada/EU
Mar 20th 2016
17
      Apparently Bernie has won 70% of democratics abroad.
Mar 21st 2016
37
           he's also winning big w/dead voters.
Mar 21st 2016
38
           OK, so now not only is Bernie unrealistic, but fraudulent?
Mar 22nd 2016
54
           That's true. Vice had an interesting piece on this:
Mar 21st 2016
41
thats cool. now he can bow out and and help move the movement
Mar 19th 2016
3
waste our time?
Mar 19th 2016
4
      the math just isn't there for bernie to win.
Mar 19th 2016
5
      There's a pretty good counter-argument to that here
Mar 19th 2016
7
      its not only just about that though.
Mar 20th 2016
11
      Sure it is. There are just as many delegates up for grabs as are necessa...
Mar 21st 2016
29
      same here.. got 7 family members voting for him...
Mar 19th 2016
6
My father was a housing inspector for HUD for 30 years.
Mar 19th 2016
8
don't matter, too idealistic.
Mar 20th 2016
12
Thank you for sharing this.
Mar 20th 2016
18
Northern black voters not as sold on Clinton as Southerners (swipe)
Mar 19th 2016
9
RE: Northern black voters not as sold on Clinton as Southerners (swipe)
Mar 20th 2016
10
You really think that's what the WaPo is saying?
Mar 20th 2016
13
      RE: You really think that's what the WaPo is saying?
Mar 20th 2016
14
      Exactly - regional differences do matter.
Mar 20th 2016
15
           RE: Exactly - regional differences do matter.
Mar 20th 2016
19
                You keep saying this as if it's an acceptable explanation:
Mar 20th 2016
20
                     RE: You keep saying, someone, somewhere, out there
Mar 20th 2016
21
                     RE: You keep saying, someone, somewhere, out there
Mar 21st 2016
31
                     RE: You keep saying this as if it's an acceptable explanation:
Mar 21st 2016
30
i tweeted this same concept weeks ago ...funny
Mar 21st 2016
23
Yes it's true, white guys that lose the nomination are not forgotten
Mar 21st 2016
22
RE: Yes it's true, white guys that lose the nomination are not forgotten
Mar 21st 2016
24
https://media.giphy.com/media/5XuaWu2Ckd9pS/200w.gif
Mar 21st 2016
25
folx kill me with this though.
Mar 21st 2016
26
      oh?
Mar 21st 2016
27
      LOL fair enough
Mar 21st 2016
33
           i voted for her and will vote for her again if she's the nominee
Mar 21st 2016
36
      Honestly, Sanders & his campaign haven't gone at Clinton as
Mar 21st 2016
28
           right, but that's my point, at the rhetoric.
Mar 21st 2016
32
           The Republicans can't really harm her much more...
Mar 21st 2016
34
           #WellActually
Mar 21st 2016
35
           I doubt he's pushed her left too....
Mar 21st 2016
39
           totally. all of those millions of Americans voting for Trump and Cruz
Mar 21st 2016
40
                A self-identified democratic socialist is making noise.
Mar 21st 2016
43
                     i'm agreeing w/you that those millions of Trump votes
Mar 21st 2016
44
                          I'll play along....
Mar 21st 2016
45
                               so how did he beat them at the nominating convention?
Mar 21st 2016
46
                                    Well yah.
Mar 21st 2016
47
                                         Oh okay.
Mar 21st 2016
48
                                              Nice pivot.
Mar 21st 2016
49
                                                   That's true. Trump is now the president as you said.
Mar 21st 2016
50
                                                        It's a matter of okp record.
Mar 21st 2016
51
                                                             i'm going w/whomever you say.
Mar 21st 2016
52
           Certainly Robert Kagan et al. don't think she's moved left
Mar 21st 2016
42
BLM were right to Protest Bernie. They need to do Hillary Now.
Mar 22nd 2016
53
been there. done that.
Mar 22nd 2016
55

bentagain
Member since Mar 19th 2008
16595 posts
Sat Mar-19-16 11:26 AM

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1. "which is the argument for him to stay in the race"
In response to Reply # 0
Sat Mar-19-16 11:33 AM by bentagain

  

          

nice avi

LOL@the Cruz quote, I missed that one

we're at about 90% Trump coverage now

w/o Bern, that goes to 100%

can't believe anybody really wants that.

"Given the way the primary calendar"

I know we clown the DNC/DWS

but this whole process is f'd

Living in CA, the 8th largest economy in the world, I have to wait until June to represent

I would really like to see the entire primary process overhauled TBH

somebody threw out the idea of having joint debates

i.e. instead of think pieces about who would do better against so and so in a GE, put them all on the stage in the primaries and find out.

but yeah, this shit is f'n brutal

Bern's the only thing even mildly interesting

---------------------------------------------------------------

If you can't understand it without an explanation

you can't understand it with an explanation

  

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Vex_id
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Sun Mar-20-16 09:43 AM

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16. "all the way to the convention. "
In response to Reply # 1


          

>nice avi
>
>LOL@the Cruz quote, I missed that one

Hilarious, right?

>Living in CA, the 8th largest economy in the world, I have to
>wait until June to represent

I'm fascinated by the CA electorate in this primary. Will be very interesting to hear their voice.

>I would really like to see the entire primary process
>overhauled TBH

I think we're moving closer to that...stay tuned.

-->

  

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denny
Member since Apr 11th 2008
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Sat Mar-19-16 12:55 PM

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2. "What I've learned......"
In response to Reply # 0
Sat Mar-19-16 01:02 PM by denny

          

American leftists are different from all other leftists in rich countries. They have been indoctrinated to think that very basic leftist principles are unrealistic, unachievable, and 'too costly'. Even though they're the richest country in the world.

I feel sorry for poor Americans. They dont' have the social safety net that I have. But it's become apparent to me that even those on the left either don't really want those things.....or they have been brainwashed to think they are impossible.

Hopefully, Bernie has begun the process in changing that. This will sound corny...but i heard Neil young's 'Keep on Rocking in the Free World' a couple days ago and I have a completely new understanding of what that song means. It's sarcastic. It's about the costs of freedom...not the virtue of freedom. And America needs a hero that will dismantle the delusion and consequences of 'freedom' in the American psyche. It's the 1%'s greatest weapon.

That's my version of sour grapes I suppose.

  

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Vex_id
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Sun Mar-20-16 09:50 AM

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17. "It is interesting to note the diff. between America and Canada/EU"
In response to Reply # 2


          

particularly as it pertains to social services and role of govt.

In America - we have the advent of "negative rights" theory - which advances the notion that the individual has the right "to be left alone" from government interference. This is a noble idea in its purest state - but it is applied erroneously in American government. We think we are "left alone" and champion liberty - but we are taxed at exorbitant rates while civil liberties are being gradually scaled back in favor of more government interference.

But what greatly differs amongst us and EU/Canada notions of govt.'s role is in the area of social services. While we are taxed at a high rate - we see very poor return on our investment in government - yet we defend its right to spend our money recklessly on interventionist wars, special interest projects, and corporate/oligarchy bail-outs. Conversely, Europeans pay a high tax-rate but receive a far better return on their investment in the form of social services. They largely look at the govt. as an entity that works/serves them - where in America there's this notion that Government should be super limited - yet Govt. only grows and becomes more unlimited - playing a jedi mind-trick on the electorate.

-->

  

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denny
Member since Apr 11th 2008
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Mon Mar-21-16 04:22 PM

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37. "Apparently Bernie has won 70% of democratics abroad."
In response to Reply # 17


          

Makes sense to me. They're outside the echo chamber and can probably see with their own eyes that these basic living principles are not pie-in-the-sky.

  

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SoWhat
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38. "he's also winning big w/dead voters."
In response to Reply # 37


  

          

fuck you.

  

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magilla vanilla
Member since Sep 13th 2002
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54. "OK, so now not only is Bernie unrealistic, but fraudulent? "
In response to Reply # 38


  

          

Cmon.

---------------------------------
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Vex_id
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41. "That's true. Vice had an interesting piece on this:"
In response to Reply # 37


          

https://news.vice.com/article/democrats-living-abroad-pick-bernie-sanders-in-international-primary

-->

  

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BrooklynWHAT
Member since Jun 15th 2007
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Sat Mar-19-16 01:12 PM

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3. "thats cool. now he can bow out and and help move the movement"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

as best as he still can which damn sure isn't wasting our time with more primaries.

<--- Big Baller World Order

  

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Mr. ManC
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Sat Mar-19-16 04:55 PM

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4. "waste our time?"
In response to Reply # 3


  

          

I cannot wait to vote for Bernie in our primary. These votes matter, if for nothing else to give a full consensus on the electorate's gauge of the candidates. You really want America's temperature taken with mostly the South and some of the midwest weighing in? There's way more country left breh

________________________________________________
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Knowledge Meets Nature
Musica Negra
#13irteen

  

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BrooklynWHAT
Member since Jun 15th 2007
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Sat Mar-19-16 05:15 PM

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5. "the math just isn't there for bernie to win."
In response to Reply # 4


  

          

it's all over but the crying now though. all he doing now is wasting time, effort & resources that could be used to win the real election.

even obama tired of this shit and ready to move on to the real battle.
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/18/us/politics/obama-hillary-clinton-bernie-sanders.html

<--- Big Baller World Order

  

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Mansa Musa
Member since Feb 16th 2009
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Sat Mar-19-16 05:47 PM

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7. "There's a pretty good counter-argument to that here"
In response to Reply # 5


          

https://newrepublic.com/article/131635/bernie-sanders-needs-new-reason-stay-race-heres-one

Bernie Sanders Needs a New Reason to Stay in the Race. Here’s One.

BY JEET HEER

March 15, 2016

The second Super Tuesday of 2016 was a disappointing evening for Bernie Sanders. After upsetting Hillary Clinton in Michigan a week ago, there was hope he would have the momentum to beat the odds again. Instead he lost in Florida, Ohio, and North Carolina, and he’s neck-and-neck with Hillary Clinton in Illinois and Missouri. If tonight ends up a clean sweep , or even 4-1, then the senator has to do a gut check: If he can’t win in Ohio and Illinois, then what is the purpose of his insurgent campaign?

If his only goal is to win the nomination, then it might be time for him to call it quits. But if his goal is to remake the Democratic Party by creating a powerful faction to the left of Clinton, then Sanders has every reason to stay until the end—and doing so could help Clinton defeat the likely Republican nominee, Donald Trump.

As Sanders said in his speech on Tuesday, his campaign has “defied all expectations.” This is undeniable. Clinton had the advantage of name recognition, endorsements from party officials, and ready access to wealthy donors. Still, a 74-year-old democratic socialist from Vermont has beaten Clinton in nine states, and the election calendar suggests he could win even a few more in the coming weeks. But on Tuesday he lost ground in the delegate count when he desperately needs to close the gap.

As long as Sanders is in the race, though, Clinton can’t take her left flank for granted and shift rightward in anticipation of the general election; doing so would risk embarrassing losses to Sanders. And the more delegates Sanders has, the bigger voice he will have in crafting the party’s platform at this summer’s Democratic convention. But there’s another reason for Sanders to stay in the campaign: Trump. Even if Sanders doesn’t win the nomination, he can still use his campaign platform to influence how the Democrats respond to Trump.

Based on their words and actions so far, Clinton and Sanders have very different views on how best to defeat Trump in November. With her rhetoric of “make America whole,” Clinton seems set on defeating the divisive real estate mogul with a centrist message that might appeal to disaffected Republicans, particularly college-educated suburban voters who are likely to be put off by Trump’s extremism. Clinton’s effusive and controversial praise of Nancy Reagan seems part of this strategy. Doing so, however, would be to write off the white working class voters in Trump’s camp.

Sanders’s greatest impact on the Democratic primary has been to tug Clinton to the left on economic issues. He likely won Michigan by hammering home his opposition to free-trade agreements, and Clinton seems to have picked up the message: In Tuesday night’s speech, she said that no one “takes advantage of us—not China, not Wall Street,” words that echoed both Sanders and Trump’s rhetoric on trade and the outsized influence of corporate America.

Trump’s likely nomination gives Sanders a strong incentive to continue in the race— not only to pull Clinton to the left on economic issues, but to argue that her pursuit of well-to-do Republicans is a mistake. This strategy would essentially cede the white working class to Trump, which is risky not only in immediate electoral terms but fraught with danger for the country. If Democrats don’t make a pitch to win back the white working class, they will become ever more alienated and susceptible to the next Trump-style demagogue who comes around. Sanders-style economic populism offers a chance to peel away these voters from Trump, dooming any chance he has of defeating Clinton in November.

Here, then, is Sanders’s new mission: to be the spokesman for the Democratic Party’s alternative to Trumpism. That’s reason enough to stay in the race.

  

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Mr. ManC
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11. "its not only just about that though."
In response to Reply # 5


  

          

The vote matters. Everybody should get to weigh in. There is overwhelming support for Bernie here. He deserves to know how many people have his back.

Now if you are truly interested in campaign finance reform and the exhorbant amount of money being spent/wasted in this election cycle then MAYBE you should look at the candidate who has been saying and living that very narrative.

________________________________________________
R.I.P. Soulgyal <3
SUPA NERD LLC.
Knowledge Meets Nature
Musica Negra
#13irteen

  

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magilla vanilla
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29. "Sure it is. There are just as many delegates up for grabs as are necessa..."
In response to Reply # 5


  

          

to win the primary. He's behind 300 on declared delegates. Cali alone has 455, but please do keep going on like this is a coronation, and not an election that's a lot closer than it really should have been.

---------------------------------
Photo zine(some images NSFW): http://bit.ly/USaSPhoto

"This (and every, actually) conversation needs more Chesterton and less Mike Francesa." - Walleye

  

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My_SP1200_Broken_Again
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6. "same here.. got 7 family members voting for him..."
In response to Reply # 4
Sat Mar-19-16 05:34 PM by My_SP1200_Broken_Aga

  

          

...every one at work, and most of my friends ..all going to vote for Bernie in NY & CT primaries ..no way should be get out of "Hillary's way" especially since theres reasons why she may not even get to run

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Castro
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8. "My father was a housing inspector for HUD for 30 years."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

He said Burlington during Bernie's terms as mayor were the most progressive and impressive municipal housing programs he ever inspected. They had a welfare to work program that included daycare, they had transitioning for homeless, a ton of stuff.

------------------
One Hundred.

  

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Mr. ManC
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12. "don't matter, too idealistic."
In response to Reply # 8


  

          

Maybe we'll be ready in 20-40 years tho.

________________________________________________
R.I.P. Soulgyal <3
SUPA NERD LLC.
Knowledge Meets Nature
Musica Negra
#13irteen

  

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Vex_id
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18. "Thank you for sharing this."
In response to Reply # 8


          

>He said Burlington during Bernie's terms as mayor were the
>most progressive and impressive municipal housing programs he
>ever inspected. They had a welfare to work program that
>included daycare, they had transitioning for homeless, a ton
>of stuff.


-->

  

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Mansa Musa
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9. "Northern black voters not as sold on Clinton as Southerners (swipe)"
In response to Reply # 0


          

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/northern-black-voters-not-as-sold-on-clinton-as-southerners/2016/03/19/f2203fa6-eda0-11e5-a9ce-681055c7a05f_story.html?tid=ss_tw-bottom

Northern black voters not as sold on Clinton as Southerners

By Greg Moore and Emily Swanson | AP March 19 at 3:05 AM

MILWAUKEE — This month has brought a new challenge for Hillary Clinton’s presidential campaign: Black voters in Rust Belt states aren’t as solidly behind her as they’ve been in the South.

It led to the Democratic front-runner’s surprise loss in Michigan, where about a third of black voters supported Bernie Sanders, and it nearly cost her Missouri, where African-Americans voted more like their counterparts across the Midwest than in the South. Now it could foreshadow vulnerability for Clinton in Wisconsin, the next Northern battleground primary.

What’s behind the trend? Exit polls conducted for The Associated Press and television networks by Edison Research reveal a possible answer.

Black voters up North have appeared more likely than black voters down South to say race relations in the U.S. have recently gotten worse. And while large majorities of African-Americans in both regions trust Clinton to handle the issue, those in the Midwest have been much more likely to say they trust Sanders.

Rust Belt blacks live closer to some of the major racial conflicts of recent years — the police killing of Michael Brown in Ferguson, Missouri; the police shooting death of 12-year-old Tamir Rice in Cleveland, Ohio; and the tainted water crisis in heavily black Flint, Michigan. And they are well positioned to turn out and express their dismay at the polls.

“Absolutely, there are enough to make a difference,” said Bradley Thurman, 66, an African-American cafe owner in Milwaukee, noting that black support twice helped tip Wisconsin toward Barack Obama, even as many other races in the state have gone in favor of Republicans.

Down South, Clinton has routinely picked up support from 8 in 10 black voters or more. But in areas farther north across the Midwest where manufacturing has contracted and factories have closed, support has been as low as Missouri’s 67 percent. That primary election had been too close to call until Sanders conceded Thursday, giving Clinton a 1,531-vote win.

About 7 in 10 black voters backed Clinton in Ohio and Illinois, less than in the South but not enough of a drop to deny her those states on a day when she also picked up victories in Florida and North Carolina.

The tight vote in Missouri — a swing state where residents have long debated whether they’re Midwestern or Southern — underscored feelings that could help keep Sanders afloat.

“I didn’t like the statement Clinton made calling our kids ‘super predators,’” said Syreeta Myers, 42, who is black.

Myers’ only child, VonDerrit Myers, was killed in St. Louis in 2014 by a white police officer, two months after Brown was fatally shot in nearby Ferguson. She’s been politically active ever since, attending rallies and marches. Myers said most of the people she knows are behind Sanders because of “what he said about stopping police from killing our children.”

Marquette University senior Nick Truog also sees race relations as an area where Sanders has an edge.

“I saw online where someone said, ‘I can’t vote for Dr. King, so I’m going to vote for the guy who marched with him,’” said Truog, whose father is black and mother is white.

Truog studies international affairs and political science in Milwaukee, a city that saw months of protests over the death of Dontre Hamilton, a black man killed by a white police officer in 2014. He said he backs Sanders, citing the candidate’s positions on income inequality and student debt as factors.

But Bobby Sanford, 42, who runs a small Milwaukee-area pest control business, doesn’t like Sanders’ idea of free college.

“No,” Sanford said. “We have to pay for that.”

Sanford, who is a black independent, remains undecided. “Honestly, I just don’t like Clinton,” he said. He said he’s a fan of Republican front-runner Donald Trump’s outspoken style but doesn’t admire Trump enough to vote for him.

“I don’t think so, but I don’t want to vote for Sanders, either,” Sanford said. “I pay enough in taxes as it is.”

Similar dissatisfaction with the government comes up in Michigan. Exit poll figures show black voters there were somewhat less likely than those in Southern states where the question was posed to have positive feelings about the way the government is working.

This also could hurt Clinton, who’s seen as the establishment candidate. The data show that black support at the high levels Clinton has seen in the South probably would have flipped Michigan into the win column and added breathing room for her in Missouri.

Overall, about 45 percent of whites have supported Clinton in the Midwest, making the minority vote a decisive factor. Black voters make up a smaller percentage of the Wisconsin Democratic electorate than other Rust Belt states. In 2008, about 8 percent of Wisconsin Democratic primary voters were black. By comparison, African-Americans made up about 21 percent of Democratic primary voters in both Michigan and Missouri this year.

Still, Thurman, owner of Coffee Makes You Black, a well-known breakfast spot on Milwaukee’s predominantly African-American north side, thinks it’s enough.

He supports Sanders because of the Vermont independent’s bold proposals. “It’s a lot of pie in the sky, but at least he’s throwing it out there,” Thurman said.

His wife looked surprised when she heard his position.

“We don’t really discuss politics,” said Laurie Thurman, who co-owns the shop.

She’s leaning toward Clinton because “she’s been around.” But the matter isn’t decided, she said, and “maybe my husband can convince me.”

  

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murph71
Member since Sep 15th 2005
23113 posts
Sun Mar-20-16 07:16 AM

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10. "RE: Northern black voters not as sold on Clinton as Southerners (swipe)"
In response to Reply # 9
Sun Mar-20-16 07:21 AM by murph71

          

And so it begins.....More of that Clinton only wins in the Confederacy freak out....lol

But like others have said it's important to let Team Bernie get that anger out....Give them time to be pissed off and unleash it....I recall Hillary Clinton's folks doing the same shit when Obama racked up a large delegate lead on her...I saw the same type of articles (HOW CAN OBAMA WIN A GENERAL WHEN HE COULDN'T EVEN BEAT CLINTON IN LARGE SECTIONS OF THE SOUTH AND IN MIDWESTERN STATES LIKE OHIO?!!!!! I'M NOT VOTING FOR HIM!!!!!)

Go ahead...get it out of your system....By convention time I believe there will be unity....

That's the hope, anyway....

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

  

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Mansa Musa
Member since Feb 16th 2009
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Sun Mar-20-16 08:22 AM

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13. "You really think that's what the WaPo is saying?"
In response to Reply # 10
Sun Mar-20-16 08:25 AM by Mansa Musa

          

It's definitely not what I'm saying. The Washington Post editorial page has been consistently anti-Sanders, but here you see their news coverage breaking with that somewhat. Unlike the NY Times, whose news coverage has been been exposed by Matt Taibbi as an extension of their editorial page:

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/how-the-new-york-times-sandbagged-bernie-sanders-20160315

Obviously, Clinton has had big wins outside of the South, and is virtually assured the nomination. But the reason why these regional differences matter is that there remains a large constituency (including in some parts of the South) for a Democrat to the left of Clinton. That has relevance going beyond this election cycle.

  

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murph71
Member since Sep 15th 2005
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14. "RE: You really think that's what the WaPo is saying?"
In response to Reply # 13
Sun Mar-20-16 09:10 AM by murph71

          


I think it's all too soon to be selling that story.......

I read the same articles about Obama.....When Clinton beat him in Ohio and Michigan I saw the same pieces....How Obama had no chance to win because he was weak in major parts in the South and in the Midwest....

Same shit, different day....

Like I said...Get it out of your system....I'm optimistic....We gon' be alright (see K Dot)....

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

  

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Vex_id
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15. "Exactly - regional differences do matter."
In response to Reply # 13


          

And yes - there are verifiable differences - region by region - that should be acknowledged.

This is yet another reason why this Dem. primary should be contested all the way to the convention. Let's "take the temperature" of the entire country (as someone in this post artfully explained). Why? It gives us a more accurate and nuanced picture of the electorate - what's important to the people - and where our aggregate politic may be headed in coming cycles.


-->

  

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murph71
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19. "RE: Exactly - regional differences do matter."
In response to Reply # 15


          



Hillary STANS and some short-sighted pundits said the same thing about Obama....Hell, George Bush supporters were saying the same type of shit about Ronald Reagan (they said he would not be able to play in the South and in some parts of the Midwest before he ran off string of wins in the primaries....)

Again...I get it. Its only natural to start grasping at straws when the person u r supporting is about to lose a race....The nitpicking gets turned up to 11.....

This is politics....It's all been said before....

Let it out....In November when its Trump vs. Hilldawg that's when we will all be sobered up...Until then, keep pushing for Bernie....

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

  

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Vex_id
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20. "You keep saying this as if it's an acceptable explanation: "
In response to Reply # 19


          


>This is politics....It's all been said before....

To many - this is no longer acceptable. While politics as usual may be something you accept as an immovable object - there are clear proofs indicating a shift in this stagnant mind-set.

-->

  

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bentagain
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21. "RE: You keep saying, someone, somewhere, out there"
In response to Reply # 20
Sun Mar-20-16 10:52 AM by bentagain

  

          

tried to rationalize with Murph in another post

one of his other tactics is to cite something that he came across outside of the boards

instead of addressing posters and the issues we raise here directly

i.e., nobody said that

homie is f'n exhausting.

I don't get how he can't see the politics 101 plea cop is an L in 16', on both sides of the aisle.

---------------------------------------------------------------

If you can't understand it without an explanation

you can't understand it with an explanation

  

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murph71
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31. "RE: You keep saying, someone, somewhere, out there"
In response to Reply # 21
Mon Mar-21-16 04:04 PM by murph71

          

Except I'm not talking about what I've read on other sites....I'm talking about history....

It's the same ol' shit.....

When Obama was beating Hilldawg on delegates I debated Clinton supporters who balked at the thought of him running in a general on this very site because he had trouble beating ol' girl in important Midwestern states and in the South....

The irony is Clinton has more delegates (not including super delegates) at the very same point than Obama had....

All I'm saying is, I've heard it all before from Reagan to Gore...Like I said...I get it....Look for any ray of light you can...

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

  

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murph71
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30. "RE: You keep saying this as if it's an acceptable explanation: "
In response to Reply # 20


          

>
>>This is politics....It's all been said before....
>
>To many - this is no longer acceptable. While politics as
>usual may be something you accept as an immovable object -
>there are clear proofs indicating a shift in this stagnant
>mind-set.


What r we debating about?

I'm talking about folks pointing out that Clinton only can win in Confederacy states (which in itself is not factual) and that it will be her weakness....And I'm making the point that the same thing has been said in other elections about other candidates...

It's nothing new u guys r doing....

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

  

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ambient1
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23. "i tweeted this same concept weeks ago ...funny"
In response to Reply # 9


  

          

=======================================
Coolin...

  

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no_i_cant_dance
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22. "Yes it's true, white guys that lose the nomination are not forgotten"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

by history lol.

Seriously tho, it does appear that a lot of folks are falling all over themselves to soften the sting of defeat for Sanders rather than just stating the obvious point: the Democratic base aka PoC voters (Black women voters if we getting real specific) didn't vote for him & that's the biggest reason he lost, el fin.

Also, opponents using your
rhetorical flourishes can't be a win for Sanders, his campaign, & his supporters...can it?? I refuse to believe they see nudging Clinton to the left in her speeches as a victory or part of a legacy for him...like, that is selling a lifetime of work embarrassingly short.


<<Mood...Poppy Okotcha in Look 1 at Ashish Fall 2016
________________________________________

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sa7KBq0q5bU

  

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Vex_id
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24. "RE: Yes it's true, white guys that lose the nomination are not forgotten"
In response to Reply # 22


          

https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xlp1/v/t1.0-9/10001495_10153675740071865_4262836711138769767_n.jpg?oh=f4ac649263f9348d3ee769b4980b1cdf&oe=574FD8A8



-->

  

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no_i_cant_dance
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25. "https://media.giphy.com/media/5XuaWu2Ckd9pS/200w.gif"
In response to Reply # 24


  

          

https://media.giphy.com/media/5XuaWu2Ckd9pS/200w.gif

<<Mood...Poppy Okotcha in Look 1 at Ashish Fall 2016
________________________________________

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sa7KBq0q5bU

  

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Mr. ManC
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Mon Mar-21-16 02:27 PM

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26. "folx kill me with this though."
In response to Reply # 22


  

          

So because of his campaign Hillary has been pushed further to the left and been exposed for some of her fuckshit....but somehow this is his fault but not an indictment on her as a candidate?

He has run a clean and honest campaign. People think they want to see Trump vs Hillary but it is going to be sad when he is laying haymakers to her record and contributions. Bernie made it a hot line. They'll make it a hot song.

________________________________________________
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SUPA NERD LLC.
Knowledge Meets Nature
Musica Negra
#13irteen

  

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SoWhat
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27. "oh?"
In response to Reply # 26


  

          

http://fm.cnbc.com/applications/cnbc.com/resources/img/editorial/2015/10/22/103102805-GettyImages-493755608-1.530x298.jpg?v=1445557210

LOL

fuck you.

  

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Mr. ManC
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33. "LOL fair enough"
In response to Reply # 27


  

          

I could see you as a Hillary support though.

You're kinda sometimey about gay marriage, lightweight hate kids, all about that $$$, and consider Chipotle authentic Mexican food.

(said with love, of course haha 8)

________________________________________________
R.I.P. Soulgyal <3
SUPA NERD LLC.
Knowledge Meets Nature
Musica Negra
#13irteen

  

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SoWhat
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36. "i voted for her and will vote for her again if she's the nominee"
In response to Reply # 33


  

          

largely b/c i think she's a better candidate for POTUS than Bernie. i dig Bernie and appreciate what he offers - i think he's more likely to accomplish his goals by working somewhere other than in the WH. i don't think he can accomplish what he wants as POTUS.

plus i'm excited about the possibility of a woman as POTUS. and i don't really want to vote for an old white guy. again. not yet.

fuck you.

  

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no_i_cant_dance
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28. "Honestly, Sanders & his campaign haven't gone at Clinton as"
In response to Reply # 26


  

          

hard as they should have on her foreign & domestic policy plans/policies she has supported. They have a lot of ammo w/ her record as Senator & Secretary of State.

He/His campaign too scared to get that work (aka scathing thinkpieces) from the mainstream white feminists or something Idk lol.

Either way, I am not convinced he pushed her left beyond rhetoric...I would love to be wrong tho.

<<Mood...Poppy Okotcha in Look 1 at Ashish Fall 2016
________________________________________

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sa7KBq0q5bU

  

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Mr. ManC
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32. "right, but that's my point, at the rhetoric."
In response to Reply # 28


  

          

She's going to end up against Trump supposedly, but what's wild is her rhetoric would definitely be under fire with him. She's like to to do an about face, which is exactly what we said would happen, to stick to her new script and get Kanye "how?"d. The criticism though seems to be of BERNIE for bringing this stuff to the light, more than it is a criticism of Hillary for having the deficiencies in her candidacy. I am just going to hate to see these same people championing her getting mixed feelings when someone like Trump lays into these issues where Sanders didn't.

________________________________________________
R.I.P. Soulgyal <3
SUPA NERD LLC.
Knowledge Meets Nature
Musica Negra
#13irteen

  

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CRichMonkey
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34. "The Republicans can't really harm her much more..."
In response to Reply # 28


  

          

They've spent the last 20 years dragging her through the mud. At this point, they *might* be able to knock five points off her favorability, but against Trump, she gets that back.


my avy: Deep in your heart, you know he's right: http://coreyrichardsonneedsajob.com/
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*RIP: John T. "220v" Richardson, Blessing Benson, and Dilla*

  

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Vex_id
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35. "#WellActually "
In response to Reply # 28
Mon Mar-21-16 04:28 PM by Vex_id

          

>hard as they should have on her foreign & domestic policy
>plans/policies she has supported. They have a lot of ammo w/
>her record as Senator & Secretary of State.
>
>He/His campaign too scared to get that work (aka scathing
>thinkpieces) from the mainstream white feminists or something

lol.

Well let's see:

-He called her out for her absurd Kissinger praise and condemned her involvement in a myriad of disastrous interventionist regime change wars in the mid-east and latin america
-He's called her out for her blemished record on criminal justice/prison-industrial complex expansionism
-At every turn he has poignantly criticized her for her wall st./superpac/special interest ties and has exclaimed that she's too compromised to responsibly serve as President when it comes to both domestic and international issues related to finance and war.

He's gone exceptionally hard at her on *the issues* that matter. What he hasn't done is insult her personally, or throw low blows at her based on sophomoric insults related to gender or Bill Clinton's sexual indiscretions (including his excursions to Epstein's pedophilic island).

He has made it clearly and substantively about the issues - and has ran an honest and dignified campaign. But to say he "hasn't gone hard" at her on domestic and international policy is just flat out wrong.

-->

  

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denny
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39. "I doubt he's pushed her left too...."
In response to Reply # 28
Mon Mar-21-16 04:24 PM by denny

          

aside from the empty rhetoric that she's adapted.

My hope is that he's pushing AMERICA left. And I think he has to some degree. Or at least thrown some elbows to make space for that conversation.

  

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SoWhat
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40. "totally. all of those millions of Americans voting for Trump and Cruz"
In response to Reply # 39


  

          

have been moved to the left by Bernie. that's why they're voting w/their left hands.

i see it.

fuck you.

  

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denny
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43. "A self-identified democratic socialist is making noise."
In response to Reply # 40
Mon Mar-21-16 04:41 PM by denny

          

I wouldn't have thought that possible.

And Trump support is not an indication that America is moving right. Quite the opposite actually. But you've been wrong about Trump for 6 months now so I don't expect anything to change in that regard lol.

Dammit....you're making ME snarky. lol

  

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SoWhat
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44. "i'm agreeing w/you that those millions of Trump votes"
In response to Reply # 43


  

          

indicate America is moving to the left.

also - you've been right about Trump vis-a-vis Ford b/c as you so astutely pointed out, the Toronto mayoral election process is just like the American presidential election process even though there's no primary, the various political parties don't host a convention to elect their nominee via what seems like a democratic process that's not actually such, Ford won w/o securing a majority of the popular vote (47% != majority), and fewer than one million votes were cast in that election. i mean, your analysis that Trump is Ford is just so spot on that i now agree w/it totally.

so tell me what Ford did to secure his party's nomination at the convention though the party bosses were against him and had tried to change the rules of the nominating process and manipulate primaries to avoid him winning. how'd he beat the bosses at their own game?

fuck you.

  

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denny
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45. "I'll play along...."
In response to Reply # 44
Mon Mar-21-16 05:01 PM by denny

          

Rob Ford indeed had to beat the conservative establishment in Toronto. There were much more conventional conservative candidates who pointed out he was not a 'true' conservative. He beat them with populist, anti-intellectual branding and messaging. In addition to getting endorsements from.....well, Donald Trump. Nice try though.

Also...city council poured over the rulebook for months and finally found a way to sap him of the normal powers a mayor has. Didn't stop him though. He would have been re-elected by a landslide if he didn't get cancer and have to bow out.

Unrelated note....Ford is likely to die any day now. His family is having a round-the-clock vigil for him at the hospital.

  

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SoWhat
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46. "so how did he beat them at the nominating convention?"
In response to Reply # 45


  

          

how did Ford come out of his party's convention w/the nomination though the party bosses tried their best to defeat him? what was his strategy?

you say his election is JUST LIKE Trump so i want to know what's coming.

>He beat them with populist, anti-intellectual branding and
>messaging. Exactly like Trump. Nice try though.

so just branding and messaging? that's it? what did the branding and messaging do?

fuck you.

  

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denny
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47. "Well yah."
In response to Reply # 46
Mon Mar-21-16 05:19 PM by denny

          

Ford didn't need to get nominated.

A difference that will be 100% inconseqential when Trump is eventually named the nominee.

The similarities I pointed out were the messaging and branding. Which have worked as I predicted they would. A prediction that ran counter to 99% of interested okps and political pundits in the media.

lol...you're not gonna take this moment from me bud!

  

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SoWhat
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48. "Oh okay."
In response to Reply # 47


  

          

What matters here is that you are right. So I hope you get what you want.

fuck you.

  

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denny
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49. "Nice pivot."
In response to Reply # 48


          

I predicted that a shitty thing was gonna happen. I'm obviously jesting and you're obviously desperate.

  

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SoWhat
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50. "That's true. Trump is now the president as you said."
In response to Reply # 49


  

          

Just like Mayor Ford.

fuck you.

  

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denny
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51. "It's a matter of okp record."
In response to Reply # 50
Mon Mar-21-16 06:27 PM by denny

          

I predicted Trump would be the nominee....days after the John Mccain quote. I didn't predict he would president til a month or so later. i've since softened on the latter but still lean that way if only slightly. I'm encouraged that activists and protesters can possibly win the narrative war.

What say you? Who will be the GOP nominee? Who the president?

  

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SoWhat
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52. "i'm going w/whomever you say."
In response to Reply # 51


  

          

if you say it's Trump then that's it.

fuck you.

  

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Mansa Musa
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Mon Mar-21-16 04:28 PM

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42. "Certainly Robert Kagan et al. don't think she's moved left"
In response to Reply # 28
Mon Mar-21-16 04:33 PM by Mansa Musa

          

People like that understand very well what kind of foreign policy she'll pursue. And her biggest campaign contributors know that she won't do anything serious to regulate Wall Street, raise wages, or lower health insurance premiums. They will get what they want.

I agree that, at best, Sanders staying in the race forces her to temporarily adjust her rhetoric, which her backers know means absolutely nothing for her policy agenda. Perhaps Sanders' base can build something that matters beyond the campaign, although Bruce A. Dixon is probably right that Hillary views him as a "sheepdog" to bring in people disillusioned with the Dems. But no matter who is in office, obviously, nothing will change without large-scale, disruptive social movements. Now or while in office, how much Clinton gets away with will be determined by how much pressure she faces from social movements.

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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53. "BLM were right to Protest Bernie. They need to do Hillary Now. "
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

I initially was one of those people who didn't see the logic of protesting the most progressive candidate in the field. But then I read this which changed my mind


"Garza argues that the strategy has been to leverage influence among the Democrats, since ninety per cent of African-Americans vote Democratic. She says that it will be uncomfortable for voters if “the person that you are supporting hasn’t actually done what they need to be doing, in terms of addressing the real concern of people under this broad banner.” She defended the Seattle action, saying that it was “part of a very localized dynamic, but an important one,” and added that “without being disrupted Sanders wouldn’t have released a platform on racial justice.” Afterward, Sanders hired Symone Sanders, an African-American woman, to be his national press secretary. He also released a statement on civil rights that prominently featured the names of African-American victims of police violence, and he began frequently referring to Black Lives Matter on the campaign trail. He subsequently won the support of many younger black activists, including Eric Garner’s daughter."


BTW, this is from a great piece in the New Yorker about BLM which really the most indepth thing I read about the movement. Worth checking out.

Anyway, that should be the approach folks take to Hillary. If our vote is a lock, then she is the one we need to put the most pressure on.

And I am not talking about getting caught on her use of the word "Super-predator", I am talking about her explaining why that incarceration approach was wrong in the 90s and how she is going to fix it in her administrations. And generally how she is going to specifically help black people.



**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

  

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SoWhat
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55. "been there. done that."
In response to Reply # 53


  

          

http://www.politico.com/story/2015/10/clinton-black-lives-matter-meeting-214634

fuck you.

  

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