"What does "politically correct" mean? Does it scare you?"
If yes, please explain why.
I'm not sure what the official definition of politically correct is, or if there even is one. Whenever the phrase is used its coming from someone having an existential crisis because people are being more considerate to each other.
Do you feel there is an army of people lurking in the shadows waiting for you to slip up so they can tell you about yourself? Are you afraid the "tables are turning?" What demographics do you think deserve human decency and which ones dont?
(P.S. If you are a white male please add this info to the end of your post for research purposes. Thank you)
"They used to call me Baby Luke....but now? The whole damn 2 Liiiive Crew."
TheAlbionist Member since Jul 04th 2011 3306 posts
Wed Dec-23-15 11:03 AM
1. "People who complain about PC scare me." In response to Reply # 0 Wed Dec-23-15 11:03 AM by TheAlbionist
PC is the upshot of our society becoming vastly more inclusive and considerate throughout the 20th Century. The social battles the populace fought and won (to certain extents anyway) often require a certain level of PC behaviour in order to stay won.
If your society considers itself to have 'dealt with' racism or sexism, you need to be able to AT THE VERY LEAST tell racist and sexist people they are being racist and sexist and that their behaviour disgusts 'polite society'.
PC isn't about locking people up for being non-PC... it's just a wider version of Stetson Kennedy's "frown power". Non-PC behaviour receives frowns, "tuts" and rebuttals... not fines, prison terms and deportations.
Largely, people get scared of PC because it threatens to tell them difficult truths about their own biases.
2. "Any thought, idea, or concept that conforms to what those" In response to Reply # 0
who believe in Political Correctness say is correct.
As an example, I've seen people claim that Black people don't tend to have identifiable accents. That's PC.
I was on a board discussion and someone mentioned people looking Arab, and someone else replied "what does an Arab look like?" That's PC.
I guess I'd define PC as pretending true or obvious things aren't true or obvious, not based on large and convincing evidence, but based on violating a set of principles.
In fact, we often think of political correctness as anything that violates leftist dogma, but this concept can apply to any set of dogma: rightist, religion-based, academic theories, anything. It's just that in our collective consciousness over the last 45 years, it's been mostly about violation of leftist dogma.
7. "Not so much feigned aloofness." In response to Reply # 5
And it actually includes the opposite of colorblindness. That's where the pretending part comes into play - pretending you don't know how many Black people sound, to go back to the example I cited. You have to be aware of something in order to pretend it doesn't exist or isn't true.
Pretending that, on average, it's not healthier to be thinner than larger. PC.
Pretending that a healthy two-parent family isn't better than a single parent family. PC.
Pretending that XYZ observable thing isn't so, because XYZ isn't good or isn't supposed to be true.
The core of it, as I said, is avoiding stating truths or clear observations strictly because they violate a set of ideas about how the world ought to be. Those ideas can be shaped by social justice theory, Christianity, Islam, post-modern theory, belief in monarchy, whatever you want.
in general i don't think there's anything wrong w/being mindful of the power of one's words and thus choosing words that do no harm or at least reduce the likelihood of harm. and that's all this 'PC' stuff you decry is about.
31. "You're referring to epithets and slurs. I'm talking about everything " In response to Reply # 28
outside of that.
Not this word or that term or that phrase.
I'm talking about that very idea such and such thing happens or exists or is a certain way, but we can't discuss any of it because that discussion would violate what is considered appropriate discussion.
32. "i'm talking about your examples." In response to Reply # 31
originally i was addressing them individually but then i saw that my response to each is basically the same. and so i went w/a general response that covers them all.
again - it's about not being an asshole. so that's why sometimes you'll see pushback when folks are going on about not congratulating fat ppl on their looks b/c being fat isn't healthy. it's b/c that idea and those words are harmful. they hurt.
33. "Ok, I got you. And I actually don't have a problem with what you're" In response to Reply # 32 Wed Dec-23-15 05:17 PM by Teknontheou
saying - you're disagreeing with my contentions about those particular ideas, which is fine. I know that because we're having a (kind of) open discussion about it. That's all I ask for in terms of society at large.
What I see with regard to political correctness is that the discussion isn't even allowed to happen, half the time. That's wrong, to me.
And btw, I didn't say anything about fat people's looks - I said health. There's a thing going around saying that you can be healthy at any size, which seems ridiculous as you approach the extremes.
Rereading your response some more, you're saying that we should avoid any ideas that result in hurting people's feelings? Nah, lol.
Being carelessly, maliciously or purposefully hurtful is impolite, wrong and rude. But if we're avoiding that route and just talking about actual factuals and people's feelings get hurt, that's too bad. And I say that as someone who's struggled with weight since I was about 10 years old.
34. "RE: Ok, I got you. And I actually don't have a problem with what you're" In response to Reply # 33 Wed Dec-23-15 05:22 PM by SoWhat
>(And btw, I didn't say anything about fat people's looks - I >said health. There's a thing going around saying that you can >be healthy at any size, which seems ridiculous as you approach >the extremes.)
that 'thing' going around is mostly an attempt to undo damage done by prior discussions of fat ppl and their health. plenty fat ppl are not ever going to be rail thin or model thin or have a gym-toned body for myriad reasons. and so they may give up altogether on trying to improve their health. the point of those messages about which you complain is to promote harm reduction. it's to tell fat ppl they don't have to get all the way slim in order to be healthy and so it can be worth it to work on improving health w/o necessarily focusing on getting down to a slim body.
that's a general trend in public health messages that took hold over the last 10 or 15 years - harm reduction. it can result in messages that sound quite contrary to the old relatively harsh/unforgiving/insensitive public health info we heard as kids and that old ppl heard when they were kids. it's about meeting ppl where they are and motivating them to make positive change even if they don't necessarily attain perfect health or perfect behavior. any positive change is worth it and so the new messages are softer b/c they seek to encourage any positive change.
Look at the way skinny women are targeted under the notion of 'self-empowerment' in a song like 'I'm all about that bass'. I think that's a good example of what Tec's talking about. I'd call that 'politically correct'. It becomes acceptable to be mean to skinny girls because they are perceived as being inherently advantaged (which, fair to say, they probably are).
40. "You bring up an interesting point." In response to Reply # 36
In the case you made about barbs being thrown back and forth between skinny and larger girls at least how it relates to people of privileged groups who are aware of how they treat, in this case plus side women and plus sized women seeking to make a safe place where they don't feel slighted because of their weight.
As a Black man, I'm obviously less privileged than a white, straight person, but more privileged than a Black American woman or a gay man or woman. There are times when, for instance where I'll hear a comic make a joke to poke at male privilege, like a female comedian joking that men are 'fill in the black', dogs, misogynistic, what ever. I'll usually feel a twinge, like I'm intentionally being made uncomfortable. But it took me the longest to realize that the comedian is starting an inside conversation that I'm not meant to hear. Just like Black people will talk amongst ourselves about White people not aware that White people may be listening, or reading on the board.
It's more of a vent than a literal statement. As people of different groups are able to talk about some of their traumas, it'll be important for privileged people who are self-aware to read when their group is being talked about and when the individual is being talked about.
43. "I'm interested in the grey areas." In response to Reply # 40 Thu Dec-24-15 06:54 PM by denny
And people who one might characterize as being too 'PC' have a reluctance to acknowledge those situations where the lines between advantaged/disadvantaged get blurry.
like the 'all about that bass' song. There's a lot of intersectionality in those dynamics of advantaged/disadvantaged. My lil girls are both skinny and both openly hated that song. When it was getting play I used to change the station if they were around. One of them (much more sensitive than the other) is mixed race....and came home crying one day cause someone said she had a 'white girl's bum'.
So think about how much intersectionality is going on there. Do thin 12 year old girls face the same stigmas and challenges as fat 12 year old girls? hell no. But at the same time....NO lil girl is free from body image baggage. Studies show that over-weight women are disadvantaged in all areas of life....employment, wealth, class. So I can understand the need to make a 'safe space'. But need that entail essentially doing the same thing that 'no fat girls' bumper stickers do in the reverse?
And similarly for race. Does my girl experience an inherited advantage in many facets of society in having light skin in relation to the dark skinned girl who said she has a 'white girl's bum'. Yep. But that doesn't mean the light-skinned girl doesn't have her own issues in regards to racial barriers/discrimination? We have to remember that privilege is relative. My mixed girl may be privileged when compared to a dark-skinned girl. But she's not privileged in comparison to my pale white bio-daughter.
But as stated numerous times in this thread.....political correctness is partly about being polite. But in these cases.....political correctness is actually used to excuse behaviour which is clearly NOT polite. ie white girl's bum/skinny bitches
I still can't believe that we accept the promo line 'Real Women Have Curves'. I mean....to me, that's an incredibly rude thing to say. That's not 'creating a safe space to empower yourself'. That's puffing out your chest and putting someone else down. But since we regard them (overweighted women) as the disadvantaged or unprivileged side....we are willing to overlook the rudeness in that statement. 'You go girl' and all that bullshit. I see it for what it is. Mean. And ironically, it's particularly hurtful in the EXACT same way that they are trying to combat in the first place. Sexual or gender-related legitimacy. A 'REAL' woman. WTF?
And like I said before.....privilege is relative. ALL women have to deal with body image issues. Yes, overweight women have their specific dynamics to navigate and it's probably fair to say that a skinny woman is privileged when compared to a fat woman. But at the same time.....any size of male is privileged compared to a skinny woman because men aren't defined and judged by their bodies to the degree that women are. I'm just trying to show the relative nature of privilege.
Again, I find these grey areas/intersectionalities interesting. But people who are often characterized as being political correct avoid these situations. They like well-defined oppressors and oppressed but real life is often much more nuanced.
49. "We've debated this before....." In response to Reply # 45
Admittedly, there's only one line in the song that is directly mean to skinny girls. The 'Real Women Have Curves' campaign is a much clearer example imo. They spend alot of time coming up with the language of those ads....I suspect it's designed to be a response to the runway model body types. Implying that women with that body type aren't 'real women'. That's pretty effed up. Couldn't have said 'Curvy Women Are Beautiful'?
It's politically correct because the tone of the campaign is clearly mean but is acceptable by virtue of our perception that skinny girls are privileged. In other words....it's mean to the right people. And this is what political correctness can and often does result in. The content of the critique doesn't matter...that it's directed towards a privileged group is the basis for it's legitimacy. The value is derived from who it targets....not the soundness of it's logic or validity of it's critique. This is when political correctness runs amok.
stravinskian Member since Feb 24th 2003 12698 posts
Wed Dec-23-15 11:09 AM
3. "I think it means "not an asshole."" In response to Reply # 0
Somebody needs to write a Chrome extension that replaces the words "politically correct" with either "not an asshole", or "not overtly evil", depending on context. It would make transcripts from the Republican debates much more illuminating.
9. "A few weeks ago, a white co-worker of mine was trying to " In response to Reply # 8
refer to another employee here. Neither one of us knows that employee well. Almost nothing about that employee's title or anything pertinent to his job is that well know to us. The one thing that's salient about this co-worker is that he's South Asian. But she was clearly afraid to just say "you know, the Indian guy that sits down the hall." To me, that was her being PC - avoiding referring to his race at all, even though it was basically the only way for her to make me know who she was talking about. How would her just saying that to me (referring to his race) have been assholish?
12. "RE: A few weeks ago, a white co-worker of mine was trying to " In response to Reply # 9
PC is saying the indian guy down the hall...
"being an asshole" or unPC is saying.. you know.. "The dot head"
Double 0 DJ/Producer/Artist Producer in Kidz In The Hall ------------------------------------------- twitter: @godouble0 IG: @godouble0 www.thinklikearapper.com
13. "I disagree that the choice was between Indian and Dothead." In response to Reply # 12
She was clearly choosing between "Indian" and "not mention race at all". The former, to her, was unPC and the latter was PC. I could see the gears turning in her mind as she somewhat agonized over how to go about saying it.
DotHead is an overt, ugly insult and overt, ugly insults, imo, lie well outside of the question of "PC or not PC."
15. "RE: I disagree that the choice was between Indian and Dothead." In response to Reply # 13
Yea.. Thats when we go overboard. When the only description is ehtnicity.. it should be used..
as long as you aren't calling japanese people oriental
Double 0 DJ/Producer/Artist Producer in Kidz In The Hall ------------------------------------------- twitter: @godouble0 IG: @godouble0 www.thinklikearapper.com
16. "I've been fighting that one since the 80s though" In response to Reply # 13
Long before the phrase "political correctness" was framed. Someone was trying to describe which member of the library department had brought the research materials to me because I wanted to follow up with the exact person who had done the research. There was one Black member of the department, and she could not bring herself to say "the Black guy" but she couldn't remember his name. When I figured it out, I was like, are you saying we should pretend he's not Black? Like that's something he should be embarrassed about and we should politely ignore? Come on.
~ ~ ~ All meetings end in separation All acquisition ends in dispersion All life ends in death - The Buddha
41. "work situations are different tho" In response to Reply # 16
For instance, in my own experience some Asian people feel outed when their race is mentioned. I am not very versed in Asian American experience so I don't know if it's perceived as a point of discrimination to be described by race.
I don't know if your coworker was White, but maybe she felt she was outing him and had an overwhelming bout of liberal guilt about it.
Maybe she sensed that he was sensitive to his race being mentioned and didn't want bring it up.
On one hand, you don't want to make someone uncomfortable, but on the other it's almost impossible to physically describe someone without a racial reference point.
It probably would be better to be cautious than bold at work.
14. "When I hear the phrase "politically correct"..." In response to Reply # 0
...I mentally substitute the word "polite." And I think that "polite" means caring about the feelings and experiences of other people and not being entirely self-centered.
And then I think about all the assholes who are complaining about "political correctness" and how they also complain that society used to be more pleasant and polite and I think that this all comes down to "I want to say what I want and be as rude as I want but I don't want anyone to say anything that hurts my feelings."
~ ~ ~ All meetings end in separation All acquisition ends in dispersion All life ends in death - The Buddha
Ted Gee Seal Member since Apr 18th 2007 10091 posts
Wed Dec-23-15 03:17 PM
22. "Being anti-PC is inherently hypocritical IMO" In response to Reply # 0
What they're actually saying is they're upset that their form of political correctness isn't the dominant form. What they miss is their version wants to stifle dissenting voices.
Also, the anti-PC message is a tantrum that's borne out of the inability to substantively counter the prevailing wisdom. If they had a logical argument that justified their views you can bet they'd use it, but they don't so they throw out a word (because it's getting harder to use racial/gender slurs or labels like socialist and communist effectively) hoping that the stigma attached will silence what their irrational thought cannot.
Novembersgift Member since Oct 19th 2004 16972 posts
Wed Dec-23-15 04:05 PM
23. "RE: What does "politically correct" mean? Does it scare you?" In response to Reply # 0
I have a coworker who is always on about how PC the Millenials are and how we're ruining everything because of it. She says people just whine about being offended nowadays whereas in the "good ol days" people apparently were never offended at all. Or if they were they just sucked it up and didn't play victim. She is white and middle-aged from West Virginia, btw.
To me this is ridiculous because I bet a bunch of people's grandparents and great grandparents can tell you how in the old days they were very much victimized and offended. Consequences for speaking up about it, however, were different.
Sounds like she and people like her are just pissed that they're being called on the carpet.
Sure, in some cases there are people waiting for you to slip up, especially folks who JUST learned the word "appropriation" or "social justice" (I could go on about that, the little baby progressives...). But in most cases you've gotta be asshole-determined to hear someone say XYZ offends me and be like "you saying you're offended offends me."
24. "It's used as a way to control the narrative, and to limit discussion" In response to Reply # 0
My first thought is Post #3, but there's more to it than just not offending someone.
The problem is, people can be offended about *anything* so there is no way to truly "not be an asshole" to someone (unless one says nothing at all). The old saying:
"You can please some of the people all of the time, you can please all of the people some of the time, but you can’t please all of the people all of the time."
We've moved from slurs being the trigger that offends someone, to *concepts* and *ideas* being the trigger that offends someone. Political correctness is a slippery slope and should be treated with suspicion by anyone that values freedom of expression.
25. "Yeah, this is just what I was about to reply with." In response to Reply # 24
Political correctness is bad when it's used as a way to silence and muffle ideas under the guise of nobility.
And the ideas thing is a good point...is it PC or not to say, for example, that children from fatherless homes commit more crimes? (In the context of a larger-scope discussion, of course.) Can facts be non-PC? I feel like often they are a target of PC police.
>My first thought is Post #3, but there's more to it than just >not offending someone. > >The problem is, people can be offended about *anything* so >there is no way to truly "not be an asshole" to someone >(unless one says nothing at all). The old saying: > >"You can please some of the people all of the time, you can >please all of the people some of the time, but you can’t >please all of the people all of the time." > >We've moved from slurs being the trigger that offends someone, >to *concepts* and *ideas* being the trigger that offends >someone. Political correctness is a slippery slope and should >be treated with suspicion by anyone that values freedom of >expression.
>Political correctness is bad when it's used as a way to >silence and muffle ideas under the guise of nobility.
b/c we ain't brand new.
we know that too often 'ideas' and 'discussion' are used to attack.
like:
>And the ideas thing is a good point...is it PC or not to say, >for example, that children from fatherless homes commit more >crimes?
it would depend on the context. is the question being asked genuinely or rhetorically? if genuine then it's intended to foster discussion. that's fine. but if it's rhetorical then that's bullshit. and that's when you might find the 'PC police' (what a loaded, awful phrase - it speaks volumes about those who use it) going on the offensive.
29. "And that's why it can be bad." In response to Reply # 27
>>Political correctness is bad when it's used as a way to >>silence and muffle ideas under the guise of nobility. > >b/c we ain't brand new. > >we know that too often 'ideas' and 'discussion' are used to >attack. >
It's too easy to halt a discussion and accuse someone of attack or aggression because they used a word you don't like.
>like: > >>And the ideas thing is a good point...is it PC or not to >say, >>for example, that children from fatherless homes commit more >>crimes? > >it would depend on the context. is the question being asked >genuinely or rhetorically?
Certainly. That's why I qualified it as being in-context.
if genuine then it's intended to >foster discussion. that's fine. but if it's rhetorical then >that's bullshit. and that's when you might find the 'PC >police' (what a loaded, awful phrase - it speaks volumes about >those who use it) going on the offensive. >
48. "Your opinion of my posts is crucial to me." In response to Reply # 39 Fri Dec-25-15 02:57 AM by SoWhat
I will work on avoiding phrases that you dislike or that negatively impact your opinion of my posts. Thank you for letting me know. I really care what you think about what I post here. I wish I could go back and edit all of my posts to remove any phrases that irk you. But I cant. I will just have to live on knowing that you have sometimes assumed I'm wrong bc I used a certain phrase even when I've said something with which you agree. I may have to get some counseling to help manage the stress I feel knowing my phrasing creates this feeling within you. Maybe I need prayer. I don't know what to do!
37. "lol but yep." In response to Reply # 35 Thu Dec-24-15 05:43 AM by denny
I think that analyzing language and deconstructing the connatations and meanings of words is important. For example....the manner in which the word 'women' relates to the word 'men' DOES carry with it a suggestion about gender dynamics. I should probly let a feminist sum this up....but the word 'women' implicitly suggests that they are a subset of a greater category ('men'). It's like telling a child that one shade of color is yellow....and the other shade is an orangish yellow. There's a hierarchy of definitional standing suggested by that and there's no doubt in my mind that it affects the way children see gender dynamics.....our words carry implicit assumptions and connatations. Some people would laugh at that type of analysis and say that it's politically correct nonsense. I think there's value and function there.
Language shapes the way we see the world and there's good reason to explore how/why it does that. And we can exercise conscious domain over language....we can intervene in how it shapes our reality and perspective.
Consider the word 'retard' or 'imbecile'. We might argue that using those words to describe a 'mentally challenged' individual dehumanizes them. So we consciously intervene and make new language in the aim to change that reality. It's not JUST about being polite. We're trying to shape the way we see the world. There's nothing new about this. It's how language works.
So the benefits of what's referred to as PC movement far outweigh any drawbacks imo. I don't think it's self-contradicting to support the 'PC movement' while also acknowledging that along the way we can employ language intervention in a misguided way....or in a way that overcompensates for it's intended goal. There are different ways that can happen....amongst them, turning the suppressed into an oppressor.....the ignored into the over-indulged. But I think that's just the nature of becoming more civilized or over-turning a previously unethical/problematic social paradigm.
46. "I wish it WAS a problem." In response to Reply # 44
But it's not. It's a strategy....and it's working. This is exactly how Rob Ford got elected in Toronto. There is a silent majority that is absolutely eating this shit up and it's sad as hell to watch.
47. "true. that's part of what's so frustrating about it" In response to Reply # 46
especially since half the time he brings it up it doesn't even have anything to do with being PC.
like talking about thousands of muslims on a jersey rooftop partying over 9/11. when people pointed how there's zero proof of that ever happening, instead of producing any kind of proof, his response was, "i saw it. it's just not PC to talk about it."
and people were like "Ugh, I hate that PC bullshit. You can't even say anything anymore! Good on Trump for stading up to it"
>But it's not. It's a strategy....and it's working. This is >exactly how Rob Ford got elected in Toronto. There is a >silent majority that is absolutely eating this shit up and >it's sad as hell to watch.
Yeah. Not that i'm convinced Trump will win, but i think he has a much better shot than people want to believe. The people i've spoke to who like him all tend to be the types who don't really follow politics. but they know they hate hilary (even though they couldn't tell you why)and political correctness. whether or not they'll vote is another story.
Thing is....I can't even imagine being around someone who would vote for Trump. lol. Maybe I'm just surrounded by liberalism cause of my circle and living in the city. These people MUST exist....I just don't know any of them. Then again...it was the same with Ford. He got elected as mayor while I literally don't know ANYONE who publically supported him.
The Wordsmith Member since Aug 13th 2002 17070 posts
Sat Dec-26-15 04:47 PM
53. "It means you gotta walk on eggshells...." In response to Reply # 0
....lest some weak minded crybaby get their overly sensitive feelings hurt. Being respectful of others is one thing. Having to watch your mouth and viewpoints no matter how tactful you've expressed yourself for EVERY little thing is wack.
54. "Folks in the Western world choose to be PC, you can be an A-hole unheede..." In response to Reply # 53
>....lest some weak minded crybaby get their overly sensitive >feelings hurt. Being respectful of others is one thing. Having >to watch your mouth and viewpoints no matter how tactful >you've expressed yourself for EVERY little thing is wack. >
It's cats that live under authoritarian rule that have to walk on egg shells & mince their words. In the West, you just have to be professional at the work place but you are free to do as you wish off the clock.
The Wordsmith Member since Aug 13th 2002 17070 posts
Sun Dec-27-15 05:09 PM
56. "So you're fine with overlooking the part where....." In response to Reply # 55
....I addressed being respectful, right? Let's not start being disingenuous and act like racism and sexism are the only things that PC types have acted offended about.
Ted Gee Seal Member since Apr 18th 2007 10091 posts
Sun Dec-27-15 09:24 PM
57. "Please look up the meaning of covert." In response to Reply # 56
If you already know what that means look up the word disingenuous.
Tactful, respectful, both words that are up to interpretation. If you don't like people expressing an interpretation that's different to your own then perhaps you should disclose your opposition to freedom of speech. Or, you could opt not to be weak minded about your own opinion and stand up for what you think is right no matter what the so called PC brigade says.
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