I don't get how that's still an expensive machine when it can be simulated and manipulated with software.

------
“There is no fate that cannot be surmounted by scorn.” -Albert Camus

You have a screen that simulates the actions of buttons and pads, which isn't going to give you the same feel as having dedicated moving parts to accomplish the same goal. There's a lot more to it than just features and convenience. Nothing wrong with software, if it works for you then that's what you should use. But there are people that will still pay thousands of bucks for a trumpet instead of ripping a sound bank off the internet that will basically simulate the same thing.

__________________________________________
CHOP-THESE-BITCHES!!!!
------------------------------------
Garhart Ivanhoe Poppwell
Un-OK'd moderator for The Lesson and Make The Music (yes, I do's work up in here, and in your asscrease if you run foul of this

I'm hoping this wasn't a real question, but I'll answer as though it was.

And some bands would rather have a drummer playing said drum set in their band.

It's a different skill set and many people would rather play drums than learn to finger drum or program.

-Sig-

“Why didn’t you do this in your own god damn country?"

-All Stah's view on undocumented immigrants wanting to be treated like human beings.

WHAT A TIME TO BE ALIVE

..while akai has done a masterful job of evolving with technology (including apps), nothing beats the true response of an actual mpc.

*the same can be said for most instruments, with weight & mobility being the only serious cons.


*skatin' the rings of saturn*


..and miles to go before i sleep...

-Sig-

“Why didn’t you do this in your own god damn country?"

-All Stah's view on undocumented immigrants wanting to be treated like human beings.

a lot of hardware makes unique sounds that havent been perfectly reproduced digitally

WHAT A TIME TO BE ALIVE

>a lot of hardware makes unique sounds that havent been
>perfectly reproduced digitally

Such as?

Also, there increasingly more options to connect tablets to hardware and this will only continue as tablets are a legit recording medium now.

-Sig-

“Why didn’t you do this in your own god damn country?"

-All Stah's view on undocumented immigrants wanting to be treated like human beings.

I remember copping FM7 and dumping my entire patch collection from my TX7 and TX81Z's only to find the TX7 stuff didn't quite sound right and the TX81Z stuff wasn't even supported. Gave them a shot in FM8 and the DX/TX7 patches were markedly better, but still not dead-on. Good for the DX7 EP's and whatnot, but the TX81Z stuff is still a bit off.

The most disappointing was the stock TX81Z Lately Bass patch. Something odd about it and I used to abuse that patch.

Casio's PD synthesis still hasn't been done in a plugin yet. I used to have a CZ1000 and was quite adept at programming the thing and used it for all sorts of sounds.

I don't think any of the Curtis CEM/SSM based synths have been emulated yet. My old Sequential Circuits Multi Trak and Akai AX60 were based around those chips.

Korg's Poly 800/800mkII hasn't been emulated. I had both of them.

Actually... Now that I think about it there's a huge number of synths that simply haven't been redone in software. I kinda figured that a lot of the rompler stuff would be done, but so far I've only seen the Korg M1 and Wavestation as VST's.


---------------------------

"Where was the peace when we were getting shot? Where's the peace when we were getting laid out?
Where is the peace when we are in the back of ambulances? Where is the peace then?
They don't want to call for peace then.

The difference between the actual machine and the emulation is usually really obvious

WHAT A TIME TO BE ALIVE

http://www.akaipro.com/category/mpc-series

Everything listed there is a software controller so I don't know what you're talking about. Yeah cats still copping the hardware vintage jawns but Akai ain't making them no more.

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." � Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

---------------------------

"Where was the peace when we were getting shot? Where's the peace when we were getting laid out?
Where is the peace when we are in the back of ambulances? Where is the peace then?
They don't want to call for peace then.

-Sig-

“Why didn’t you do this in your own god damn country?"

-All Stah's view on undocumented immigrants wanting to be treated like human beings.

are usually stuck in the past in terms of technology. You still have cats using the MPC60 and the SP1200, because for hip-hop beat making many feel like the limitations of the older devices are good for creativity.

But for most musicians, they have moved on. There was a time when pop and R&B artists all had bands that were using MPCs for backing sequences. Now, everyone is either running Ableton or ProTools on a laptop is they need control over the individual tracks in the stems, or an iPad running MPC apps or SoundCue if they just need loops or set sequences.

> Now, everyone is either running Ableton
>or ProTools on a laptop is they need control over the
>individual tracks in the stems, or an iPad running MPC apps or
>SoundCue if they just need loops or set sequences.

Maybe a lot of people, but "everyone" is terribly exaggerated.

---------------------------

"Where was the peace when we were getting shot? Where's the peace when we were getting laid out?
Where is the peace when we are in the back of ambulances? Where is the peace then?
They don't want to call for peace then.

People forget that it wasn't just hip hop and dance musicians using those machines. We used to use them for television music cues. Not anymore.

It really is only hip hop beat makers (and retro ones at that) and dance music purists that have any use for them now. That will fade too imo.

I'm specifically talking about pop and R&B artists with live bands that run backing tracks. I'm talking about this because it's what I do, and I work with plenty of musicians who do the same thing. We used to run MPCs live as if he standard, but I don't know of any major artists in those genres with bands running MPCs.

ProTools is pretty much the standard for mixing and whatnot but I would put Logic over Ableton for compositon, unless you're PC based then I'd probably give FL Studio the edge over Ableton.

Live performances? Yeah I can see Ableton.

I'm not a fan of either of the three, and Emagic/Apple pissed me off to no end when they discontinued Logic for the PC with 5.5.1 (I still have it somewhere around here), but ProTools is a necessary evil. I'm about to cop another ProTools rig in the next month or two with an 003 console for my interface, but I'm probably not re-buying any plugins. The move to AAX from RTAS means I might cop Waves PP, but nothing else.


---------------------------

"Where was the peace when we were getting shot? Where's the peace when we were getting laid out?
Where is the peace when we are in the back of ambulances? Where is the peace then?
They don't want to call for peace then.

For recording I prefer Logic. For live performance it's definitely Ableton. But sometimes you have to run ProTools live because that's how the stems were originally recorded and they weren't rendered to separate tracks that could be used anywhere.

"Everyone" is only slightly exaggerated.

Do you know how I know this? Because this is one industry where the one true republican god, The Market, is almost always correct because margins are paper thin and they can't really afford to fall behind mass market trends.

Right now, The Market is definitively catering to a generally software based set of consumers. Even the steadfast and resolute "Big Three" keyboard companies, Korg, Roland, and Yamaha are becoming increasingly integrated with computer based setups with their flagships.

There a few companies catering to the analog fringes, but "Everyone" is actually pretty accurate even if (hell, especially when) used in a general sense.

You saw the Akai MPC line, right? You said it was sad. Do you think they'd be going in that direction if there were any real money staying in the MPC 2K/3K/60 lane? When that was their bread and butter for a couple decades?

Nah

-Sig-

“Why didn’t you do this in your own god damn country?"

-All Stah's view on undocumented immigrants wanting to be treated like human beings.

I've heard that those machines compress the sound of anything inputted in a way that people like as well. I'm sure you could duplicate that with software too....but I imagine people don't have interest in doing so. I imagine the claim would be that it 'just sounds better on the SP12' than on any software....not knowing they just need to find the right parameters on the right compressor to duplicate it.

the built in limitations of those machines. There is definitely a signature "color" to those old samplers, and the swing of the sequencers.

Not to mention the fact that you're making a broad assumption that applies to a majority.

__________________________________________
CHOP-THESE-BITCHES!!!!
------------------------------------
Garhart Ivanhoe Poppwell
Un-OK'd moderator for The Lesson and Make The Music (yes, I do's work up in here, and in your asscrease if you run foul of this

>Not to mention the fact that you're making a broad assumption
>that applies to a majority.

A significant majority. Like, the VAST majority.

Obviously anyone with a brain knows there are smaller segments of electronic musicians that prefer a more analog environment and you're either hyper sensitive or incredibly dense if you think he doesn't know as much.

I think you know better.

-Sig-

“Why didn’t you do this in your own god damn country?"

-All Stah's view on undocumented immigrants wanting to be treated like human beings.

__________________________________________
CHOP-THESE-BITCHES!!!!
------------------------------------
Garhart Ivanhoe Poppwell
Un-OK'd moderator for The Lesson and Make The Music (yes, I do's work up in here, and in your asscrease if you run foul of this

responded to.

I'd say soulfunk was pretty accurate and I really don't see how it's condescending. You don't strike me as thin skinned so I'm really not understanding why you took issue with what he said. When he said "stuck in the past", he was clear that he meant in terms of technology.

We can debate the minutiae of the accuracy of his logic- i.e, the reason being due to the "limitations expand creativity"- but I don't see much to be bothered by there.

-Sig-

“Why didn’t you do this in your own god damn country?"

-All Stah's view on undocumented immigrants wanting to be treated like human beings.

__________________________________________
CHOP-THESE-BITCHES!!!!
------------------------------------
Garhart Ivanhoe Poppwell
Un-OK'd moderator for The Lesson and Make The Music (yes, I do's work up in here, and in your asscrease if you run foul of this

i.e. velocity response on pads cannot be duplicated on a touch screen AFAIK.

Some folks don't like being tethered to a computer all the time and tablets are really shit for this kind of thing.

Hardware is still big business. There's a reason Alesis still makes the SR16 drum machine after all these years.

---------------------------

"Where was the peace when we were getting shot? Where's the peace when we were getting laid out?
Where is the peace when we are in the back of ambulances? Where is the peace then?
They don't want to call for peace then.

>i.e. velocity response on pads cannot be duplicated on a
>touch screen AFAIK.
>
>Some folks don't like being tethered to a computer all the
>time and tablets are really shit for this kind of thing.
>
>Hardware is still big business. There's a reason Alesis still
>makes the SR16 drum machine after all these years.
>


Yep

____
Some will tell you that they love you but they've got an ulterior motive - Oh what a shame
They will tell you that they need you but they've got an ulterior motive - Personal gain

(c) Luciano


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fg0-qndkemo

And that's still a pretty ridiculous amount of money to pay because you like the feel of a button. I'm sure you could eventually combine the software with outboard pads that have good velocity response for a fraction of the cost.

an MPC is completely self contained, as such workflow is focused solely on the unit without distraction.

I was one of the earliest cats on the MPD16+DAW shits. It was cool, especially when I paired it up with FL Studio, but I still missed the focus I had when I was using an ASR-X (which I've always preferred over the MPC).

>an MPC is completely self contained, as such workflow is
>focused solely on the unit without distraction.

If you're making beats with keys, you're still using your keyboard/module to select and edit patches. I"m assuming you're not including post-production in your assessment of an mpc as a completely self contained unit, unless you're a fan of their effects sections. I know I'm not but that's just me.

Honestly, Maschine is a far more "self contained" unit than anything out there. I know it requires computer connectivity but I'm speaking in terms of doing everything from the unit itself without needing to look at or do any work from anything else. It definitely has some flaws but it's strengths are considerable. I still prefer an MPC sequencer.

If Akai ever teamed up with, say, Yamaha and created a 100% stand alone (with computer integration as a bonus, not a necessity) MPC that included the sound and fx engines of the Motif series, a big SSHD and a VGA/HDMI port with a decent GUI, well, that would be a blistering shot of napalm that would pull a sizable portion of the Maschine market. I think I'd be among them.

>I was one of the earliest cats on the MPD16+DAW shits. It was
>cool, especially when I paired it up with FL Studio, but I
>still missed the focus I had when I was using an ASR-X (which
>I've always preferred over the MPC).

I was disappointed with the MPD 32 personally. It was great for banging out drums and very basic mixing, but otherwise it was actually a workflow distraction. I use Cubase so perhaps it functioned better with FL, but it was a lackluster experience overall. Cubase with a Nektar P4/5 was far better and Maschine completely destroyed it.

-Sig-

“Why didn’t you do this in your own god damn country?"

-All Stah's view on undocumented immigrants wanting to be treated like human beings.

>If Akai ever teamed up with, say, Yamaha and created a 100%
>stand alone (with computer integration as a bonus, not a
>necessity) MPC that included the sound and fx engines of the
>Motif series, a big SSHD and a VGA/HDMI port with a decent
>GUI, well, that would be a blistering shot of napalm that
>would pull a sizable portion of the Maschine market. I think
>I'd be among them.

Korg Trinity w/Sampling expansion. Truthfully, a Trinity with every option loaded is *still* a formidable piece of hardware.

Korg Trinity
Yamaha EX5/EX7
Yamaha Motif (the original joint)
Yamaha RS7000
Ensoniq ASR-X/ASR-X Pro (when loaded with an MR-series card)
Roland Fantom series (IIRC most, but not all, Fantom boards had sampling built-in)

Roland came really close to what you're talking about with the MV8800. Sequencer, audio recording, sampling, and a VGA out for a better experience, but it didn't have a synth engine.

>
>>I was one of the earliest cats on the MPD16+DAW shits. It
>was
>>cool, especially when I paired it up with FL Studio, but I
>>still missed the focus I had when I was using an ASR-X
>(which
>>I've always preferred over the MPC).
>
>I was disappointed with the MPD 32 personally. It was great
>for banging out drums and very basic mixing, but otherwise it
>was actually a workflow distraction. I use Cubase so perhaps
>it functioned better with FL, but it was a lackluster
>experience overall. Cubase with a Nektar P4/5 was far better
>and Maschine completely destroyed it.

I also used Cubase with my MPD16, but I used Battery for my drum sampler under Cubase. FL Studio has a module called FPD which is similar to Battery but much faster to work with (and it's got 16 outs, which is dope).

But going all out with something built like an MPC but with keyboard workstation features and you just plugin a midi keyboard is the ticket IMO. Plus, the MPC sequencing and sampling is special by comparison. The Roland MC boxes kind of did this but IMO those were dissapointing and the MV8800 could have crushed some buildings with a Fantom synth engine.

-Sig-

“Why didn’t you do this in your own god damn country?"

-All Stah's view on undocumented immigrants wanting to be treated like human beings.

of everything being done in one unit (ASR-X), but then I remembered I also used an E-Mu Orbit and Alesis MIDIVerb4 on that project. Granted, everything was controlled and sequenced directly from the ASR-X, but yeah, I did all my patch programming in the Orbit from it's front panel and tweaked all of the effects the same way.

So yeah... there's something to that... unless you're using the MPC as a master clock and slaving a keyboard workstation to it or something like that, where you're focused on whatever piece you're creating with at the moment.

---------------------------

"Where was the peace when we were getting shot? Where's the peace when we were getting laid out?
Where is the peace when we are in the back of ambulances? Where is the peace then?
They don't want to call for peace then.

The MPC 3000 or the 4000 (which uses the same sequencer as the 3000, which is based off the ASQ).

__________________________________________
CHOP-THESE-BITCHES!!!!
------------------------------------
Garhart Ivanhoe Poppwell
Un-OK'd moderator for The Lesson and Make The Music (yes, I do's work up in here, and in your asscrease if you run foul of this

This current generation doesn't give two fucks about the timing differential between older MPC sequencers and the new shit.

My guess is that a lot of the tablet sect only knows about it when they read about it online. Plus, these companies are generally looking for a quick buck and are more interested in packing features and high numbers of fx and presets than nailing down sequencer timing. It's just not a big enough issue to enough people for these companies to pay that much attention to detail in most cases.

Sure it's possible, but highly improbable.

-Sig-

“Why didn’t you do this in your own god damn country?"

-All Stah's view on undocumented immigrants wanting to be treated like human beings.

If figured by 'sequencing' we're referring to the display and organization of how tracks appear.

Are you guys talking about stuff like swing settings? Cause again....those are extremely simple algorhythms that can be analyzed and duplicated if someone WANTED to.

I'm not trying to crush your opinion or anything, but I've spent a considerable time in both worlds and have had several completely different setups going back to 1999.

By far, the best, most reliable, and "tightest" setup in terms of sequencer timing was with the MPC 2K and Motif ES Rack.

The latency factor with software, even with higher end multicore processors with software optimized for multicore support and high ram capacity, the actual timing still doesn't compare. The algorythms can be as tight and accurate as you want, but even the latency of most computer systems (i.e, combination of processor, optimization of the OS and software, sound card/interface quality, RAM, etc) people are using wouldn't be able to take advantage it anyways.

Unless you're focusing squarely on the masses having the best possible overall computer setup and knowing how to optimize for midi and audio recording, there isn't a real discussion to be had on this IMO.

-Sig-

“Why didn’t you do this in your own god damn country?"

-All Stah's view on undocumented immigrants wanting to be treated like human beings.

-Sig-

“Why didn’t you do this in your own god damn country?"

-All Stah's view on undocumented immigrants wanting to be treated like human beings.

Head to guitar center or sam ash. Call up Sweetwater and ask them what people are asking for when they shop for a drum machine.

The only guys I've EVER known to have that or something like it are middle aged white dudes who play guitar and want a backing track, but who are otherwise not all that serious about actual production work. I've met a few kids who wanted to dabble but had know real knowledge of what's what in the beat making world cop shit like that.

I've never met a single person who was seriously into production work who went with an Alesis drum machine. Everyone who is serious looks for something a little more advanced and tends to start with a Roland X0X, MPC 1000/500, Maschine Mikro, etc for their entry level gear.

Yes, there still are market segments who prefer to work without software, but they are increasingly the minority.

-Sig-

“Why didn’t you do this in your own god damn country?"

-All Stah's view on undocumented immigrants wanting to be treated like human beings.

having physical buttons that don't move could let artists focus on their music

instead of learning a new system, and software that changes.

sure, young folks coming up can easily get used to it but it might not be so easy otherwise.

that said, I've seen (older) artists using beatmaking software on iPads, so it's out there.

it's just a matter of comfort level


www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

My kids have drum practice at the Buddhist center Sundays and they guy teaching has been a session drummer for years. One guy that's usually there is an engineer and bassist, one plays drums and piano and engineers as well. I was telling them that I'm buying another Pro Tools rig, but I'm getting a console with it 'cause I hate "mouse mixing" as well as a new keyboard controller with "a shitload of knobs, sliders, and drum pads on it" to use with my synth plugins.

This statement caused a "get off my lawn" style reminiscing session from all of us about how much mixing in software sucks, programming synths with a mouse sucks, and how the lack of knobs and other tactile interfaces is just terrible. Many tales were told by all about various pieces of hardware we've owned, different consoles we've used, and the like.

In the end, the decision to get a console with *some* knobs and faders, even if they're "multi-function" was universally lauded as the right thing to do.

maybe we're just old farts (though I'm by far the youngest of the group), but shit just works a lot better with something to touch.
---------------------------

"Where was the peace when we were getting shot? Where's the peace when we were getting laid out?
Where is the peace when we are in the back of ambulances? Where is the peace then?
They don't want to call for peace then.

Actually, if it's a pro tools rig I'm not sure if they have that mapped yet. Unless you do it yourself, it may be just another midi board.

It's a shade below killer app status for Cubase, Logic, and Bigwig though and it runs Reason nearly the way Maschine runs NI stuff.

-Sig-

“Why didn’t you do this in your own god damn country?"

-All Stah's view on undocumented immigrants wanting to be treated like human beings.

I've looked at the Nektar line but I don't see it giving me much more integration with my setup over an M-Audio board. They're a bit cheaper though, and I do need a bigger board over my current 49 key joint so on price alone an Impact LX61 is worth a look.


---------------------------

"Where was the peace when we were getting shot? Where's the peace when we were getting laid out?
Where is the peace when we are in the back of ambulances? Where is the peace then?
They don't want to call for peace then.

I'd say the large majority of working producers today are computer based (Fruity Loops, Ableton, Logic & PT)

MPC is difficult to use and collaborate with in this day and age... The renaissance its better but it's still a small market..

In terms of velocity sensitivity.. just write the midi... Its as easy as "this like is taller than this line". Velocity sensitivity barely shows up in modern music anyway (unless you use REAL players)..

That said I still want to go back and get an MPC60II.. Outboard gear is a little more fun

Double 0
DJ/Producer/Artist
Producer in Kidz In The Hall
-------------------------------------------
twitter: @godouble0
IG: @godouble0
www.thinklikearapper.com

Wax Poetics

that the MPC is what shaped his sound and while he wants to evolve, he's not sure if moving away from the MPC entirely will compromise his style. he didn't name names but noted some producers who have moved away from the MPC sort of lost their way/style now

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