I always thought there were white PRs and black PRs. But then someone reminded me that if you try to tell a PRs that they are black they will tell you GFOHWTBS.

I guessing there wouldn't be that sort of blow black telling a "white Puerto Rican" that they are white.

Anyway, what did the racial police end up ruling on them?


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson


"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're

gotta use the 'IN' word when they wanna be 'in'

________
http://twitter.com/aehorton
http://instagram.com/aehorton

**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson


"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're

who often more strongly identify with their national origin than any racial designation. There are black, white, (very, very, very few) indigenous Puerto Ricans as well as those with Asian and other heritages. Most often a mix of those ancestries. Puerto Rican is not a racial group. It is a national group.

--

"You can't beat white people. You can only knock them out."

larger number of Puerto Rican nationals carried Taino blood along their matrilineal sides than previously thought (60%)

http://voices.nationalgeographic.com/2014/07/25/genographic-project-dna-results-reveal-details-of-puerto-rican-history/

The last thing I read about it a few years ago was saying (like the article you linked) that there were very few traces of indigenous people still in Puerto Rico.

Thanks for updating me.

--

"You can't beat white people. You can only knock them out."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Ze4xTXI-xU

http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n261/SoundUniversal/taino.jpg

http://images.artelista.com/artelista/obras/fichas/4/9/1/12094.jpg

http://imagecache.artistrising.com/artwork/lrg//2/234/7YA3000A.jpg

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/c0/57/2e/c0572ec83139aefe7c5241ecc449375e.jpg

>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Ze4xTXI-xU
>
>http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n261/SoundUniversal/taino.jpg
>
>http://images.artelista.com/artelista/obras/fichas/4/9/1/12094.jpg
>
>http://imagecache.artistrising.com/artwork/lrg//2/234/7YA3000A.jpg
>
>https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/c0/57/2e/c0572ec83139aefe7c5241ecc449375e.jpg

-------------------
I wanna go to where the martyrs went
the brown figures on the walls of my apart-a-ment...

or depends.

a friend looks like a mixed black girl but she is most definitely PR

and she identifies with both Black (capital B) and being Puerto Rican

***********************************************************
https://soundcloud.com/swageyph/yph-die-with-me

=======================================
Coolin...

***********************************************************
https://soundcloud.com/swageyph/yph-die-with-me

=======================================
Coolin...

and 2 others roll w/Latino.

fuck you.

>and 2 others roll w/Latino.
>


We all do to the same shit.

___________

Back again for the first time.

The average Puerto Rican is mostly black and white, with about 15% native blood, although there are those who are are more traditionally "black" or white"

There are different racial groups throughout. The reluctance to identify as black is due to the effect of white supremacy. That same reluctance exists in this country. So, there's no real difference there. There's more of an opportunity to do it with latinos, b/c of the way we conflate ethnicity and race in those instances.

My father is Cuban, his father is racially black, his mother is racially white. He looks like a light-skinned black dude. On paper in the US, he's identified by his ethnicity as opposed to his race, but because his traits, he is viewed as black. He calls himself Afro Latino. So, I reject the notion that people will shy away from it. It depends on the individual. Regardless of how he wants to identify himself, American society decides how it wants to identify and treat him, so his racial identity is constructed extrinsically.

http://soundcloud.com/forestbrooks

some more Black than others.

<----

Soundcloud.com/aquil84

(HIP HOP)
http://aquil.bandcamp.com

They have the lineage to claim both/either.

********************************

Get Out The Room!
http://getouttheroom.podomatic.com
@fakewilliamkatt

"You probably wouldn't worry about what people think of you if you could know how seldom they do!" - Olin Miller

most of the world doesnt see this as black and white
its why i say im not black, i discovered this race bullshit in the u.s.a
i can tell you what my identity it, it is not mirrored in skin colour
it's my ethnic background, my skin colour (which is blakitty black)
is just that
my identity, is bigger than that
its why i understand the B/black discussion
its trying to move the discussion beyond a moniker that makes little sense
and shift it a culture-based identity, which is what the rest of us identify with


on that note: im so tired of these race discussions
wake me up when we want to talk about the implications of race
on a more meaningful level

.
http://perspectivesudans.blogspot.com/
i myself would never want to be god,or even like god.Because god got all these human beings on this planet and i most certainly would not want to be responsible for them, or even have the disgrace that i made them.

here for dis.

********************************

Get Out The Room!
http://getouttheroom.podomatic.com
@fakewilliamkatt

"You probably wouldn't worry about what people think of you if you could know how seldom they do!" - Olin Miller

There's a minority that has little to no Afro blood and a very small minority that is mostly Afro. But the overwhelming majority seem to be mainly Euro and NDN, with less Afro blood.

That's just on some naked-eye shit.

I compare them to Cubans. When I was in Havana, it felt like a legit 2/3rds of the city was what we would call black. But they distinguish between black and mulatto (their word) in a way we've been taught not to.

I definitely agree with you. In my time there, I'd say that by US racial standards, Cuba is like 70% black.
Santiago even more so.

--

"You can't beat white people. You can only knock them out."

But from what I've read, the further East you go, the blacker it gets.

>There's a minority that has little to no Afro blood and a
>very small minority that is mostly Afro. But the overwhelming
>majority seem to be mainly Euro and NDN, with less Afro
>blood.
>

i remember having read a few books and articles about there being a concentrated effort on the part of spain and later the u.s. to lighten up the population of puerto rico a long time ago. they invited europeans to settle the island in order to keep p.r. from becoming another cuba. people were also able to purchase "white papers".

in my family (on my mother's side), the very light skinned, in the middle, or very dark skinned, have no problems acknowledging african ancestry. in my experience, most are proud of it, as they are the taino and european ancestry. some just don't give a shit either way. which i guess is why not many speak spanish anymore.

i've met puerto ricans, including the father of a former girlfriend, that hated being identified as "black". he didn't speak to me aside from hello for more than six months. it wasn't until his daughter told him that i had puerto rican ancestry that he began to speak to me. i didn't want him to know actually. but she told him after a blow-out. he wanted her to get back with an ex. she was like "you want me to get back with a guy that hit me", which he never knew for fear of what the dad would do.

i knew she had said something because he started talking to me out of the blue one day. after a while, i found out that he didn't really hate his own black skin (which was very dark), or black people. he just internalized a lot about being labeled once he got to new york from puerto rico, and later california. he saw the differences in how his african american friends were treated and went out of his way to make his origins clear. he said he never really felt it all that much in puerto rico. at least not on the level as in the united states.

include Dominicans.

Hell include everyone south of El Paso, because it's not a binary world out there.

We're the only idiot country on the planet that approaches race with about as much nuance and subtly as a shotgun loaded with rock salt

people need to understand trying to use latinos as a scape goat
caribe latinos esp puerto ricans have started to tackle this sooner than south american or central american latinos
all are behind americans on this issue because for decades they have tried to use the we are all one race concept and realized not only have they been racist al along against their indigenous and black populations they simultaneous continued to disenfranchise those pops

we may be a mess but at least we are trying
the rest of the world tries to ignore it for the most par
~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

********************************

Get Out The Room!
http://getouttheroom.podomatic.com
@fakewilliamkatt

"You probably wouldn't worry about what people think of you if you could know how seldom they do!" - Olin Miller

it's annoying to repeatedly hear that the American conversation on race is behind everyone else bc we're all dummies who only *want* to see things in black and white.

--
the untold want by life and land ne'er granted
now voyager sail thou forth to seek and find

.

______________________________________

Everything looks like Oprah kissing Harvey Weinstein these days

Rest In Peace, Bad News Brown

I lived there for a few years in the early 10's and its bass ackwards. They've got black and white, along with others from Asian countries. Then they have the Colored. A racial designation for those mixed with black and white. Trevor Noah is black in this country, but over there he's colored. The same for Thandiwe Newton, Mariah Carey, or Halle Berry...but Obama is black to them. Formalizing light-skin divides the black people of SA, and helps the minority white political parties to survive.

_________________
When you control a man's thinking, you don't have to worry about his actions.
-Carter G. Woodson

what are americans?
~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

I think the one drop rule in the US (and maybe the English-speaking Caribbean, too?) has created a situation kind of different than Latin America.

Because it was designed to keep whiteness exclusive and pure, so the historical majority here has been overwhelmingly Euro in terms of genetic make-up. That's only changing in the last 30 years due to immigration.

And the One Drop rule also forced blackness on people here who wouldn't have had to see themselves as black in Latin America, historically.

So there's probably not nearly as much of a gradual shift along a spectrum of racial-mixedness here, like in PR or Cuba or Brazil or DR or Colombia or Panama. Here we moreso have racial clusters. The Lilly-white majority who have either zero African blood or very little. Then Black people who, for the most part, range from being roughly half African/half Euro at one end, and high-80% African on the other end. Then the growing Latino population, which is it's own microcosm of all of this (Mexicans, Ricans, Dominicans, Cubans, and some South Americans, repping different parts of Latin America.)

Sidenote: when I first got my genetic test done, one of the things I noticed was that my relatives/matches were almost never like 15% African or 25% African or 30% African. They were always, like I said above, between roughly 50% - 90% African, or like 1.5% African. What this suggests to me is that as soon as a Black person could pass, i.e., your African percentage falls below, maybe 40 or 45%, they often would.

a single racial category
which is what the question above tried to do

no matter the different breakdowns that occur amongst various latin countries
and note brazil has different breakdowns from puerto rico

note race and class wise black and brown still usually end up on the bottom of a social economic scale

which has those countries have a lot more in common with the US than they used to want to realize
~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

Tek mentioned the North American need to keep whiteness pure
the Latin American means of handling race was to dilute blackness by creating a gazillion racial classifications. Colombia for example had more racial classifications than years of existence (150+) by the time it celebrated the 50th anniversary of its colonization. That's how we get people like Sammy Sosa claiming he's "indio" or see situations like the mass deportations of people of Haitian descent in DR, that built in valve to escape our African heritage.

here for dis.

some closer to Native American (Taino).

But most are mixed. Most of the Puerto Ricans I know don't racially identify as white or black, but as Latino, Spanish (meaning Latino) or specifically Puerto Rican. The vast majority of these folks were brown to light brown with mixed white/black/Native features.

This generally applies to most Caribbean Latinos I've known, which is why the change to the Census to mark "Hispanic/Latino" as only an ethnicity and not a race resulted in many Latin folks writing in "Puerto Rican", "Cuban", etc. (see http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2014/04/04/mexican-hispanic-and-latin-american-top-list-of-race-write-ins-on-the-2010-census/)

http://soundcloud.com/djshinobishaw
http://www.rareformnyc.com
http://twitter.com/DJShinobiShaw
https://twitter.com/RareFormNYC
PSN: ShinobiShaw

"Arm Leg Leg Arm How you doin?" (c)T510

here for dis.

**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson


"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're

here for dis.

**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

.

He is PR and Black.

~ ~ ~
All meetings end in separation
All acquisition ends in dispersion
All life ends in death
- The Buddha

|\_/|
='_'=

Every hundred years, all new people

And this seems to be based on phenotype.

The ones that I have the trouble with are the ones who based on phenotype look more of Indian heritage more than anything else.

And I am fully aware that I am trying to force my American binary view of race on another people with a different history.


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

with "PR" meaning taino-descended?


or is PR reflecting a place, like "german and black"

)))--####---###--(((

bunda
<-.-> ^_^ \^0^/
get busy living, or get busy dying.

but PR is definitely formative in his identity, even though he was born in NY and only lived in PR for maybe 6 years before going into the army.



~ ~ ~
All meetings end in separation
All acquisition ends in dispersion
All life ends in death
- The Buddha

|\_/|
='_'=

Every hundred years, all new people

don't know/get it


some claim, some don't

Dominicans n Haitians on the same island yet one is obvious the other is finger to chin

Brazilians, Cubans, Venezuelans, Panamanians etc all confuse me

=======================================
Coolin...

>don't know/get it
>
>
>some claim, some don't

the ones that grow up in the hood tend to identify as Black. The ones from the burbs or in well to do areas tend to try to pass.


>>Brazilians, Cubans, Venezuelans, Panamanians etc all confuse
>me
>

If they're dark, ain't no hidin' place. They roll with us.


>

___________

Back again for the first time.

I've only MET one Dominican in my life that I can recall...I woulda just assumed she was lt skinned or mixed if she didn't have the accent but she pretty much acted/would pass for black


we don't have a real large or presence of an afro-latino population here so I have little point of reference

no...we did have a dude from philly at my old gig who was Dominican or Puerto Rican...he was pretty much treated like he was lt skinned lol...like u different...but close enough


this whole thing fascinates me

=======================================
Coolin...

they live in the same neighborhoods, go to the same schools, and generally do what Black folks do socially. I've never heard a Puerto Rican try to not identify as Black.

___________

Back again for the first time.

There is a shit ton who do not. I went to school with a lot of Puerto Ricans who you wouldn't know they weren't regular white until they opened their mouth and spoke Spanish. They did not at all identify as black.

I don't think they were claiming White. More like Puerto Rican was their identity without a racial layer.


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

Nuyoricans and Ricans from Mass/RI/CT, AT ALL. The ones from the island were all super privileged (not in a bad way, necessarily) and carried themselves like the rich foreign students they basically were.

I rolled with PR Islanders in HS and college
they did in fact not want anything to do with the nuyoricans
in their words the nuyos were "uppity" "conceited" "not really PR"
Nuyos didn't help their cause by either not speaking spanish or
speaking it so horribly that it was like "it's ok bro, just speak english"

Then the nuyos I knew said the islanders were
"peasants" "too country" and things like that

It was ill to me how they beefed all the time
that's when I learned all that "la raza" and "latinos stick together" was BS

it's real simple shit.

do they or their ppl eat collards?

if they have Thanksgiving dinner - who's making the collard greens?

(*...yes, they can also be turnips or mustards. NO, not kale or spinach. if you don't know what i'm talking about or why you're either not Black or just contrary.)

fuck you.

>(*...yes, they can also be turnips or mustards. NO, not kale
>or spinach. if you don't know what i'm talking about or why
>you're either not Black or just contrary.)
>
>

Mustards, Turnips, Collards, who the fuck knows? I STILL can't tell the difference.
It's some green shit in the pot with a turkey neck in it. Shit's delicious, so I don't bother with a lot of questions.

___________

Back again for the first time.

I thought I didn't like greens until I figured out I detest mustards and turnips. I like collards though. I grew up wth parents who prefer turnip greens.

is a social construct.

As such...different societies define the parameters for race differently.

In the U.S. ... we follow the one drop rule. And so light bright damn near white is considered Black. This is largely because whites are the overwhelming majority here and as such they can ostracize anyone with any amount of black blood.

In places where whites live, but are a smaller number they will "include" more persons of color within the circle if you will. So in Brazil or South Africa people will be stratified much differently. Its not just Black and/or white. Mestizos, Mulattoes, Colored etc will be intermediary designations because the white folks in those countries know they cant totally ostracize everyone with black blood because they would end up getting eaten.

So its not really that Americans lack nuance when it comes to defining race.

Its the power structure needs its racial classifications to achieve something different.

Race aint real...but has real implications.

http://howardlloyd.bandcamp.com

"Get ready....for your blessing....."

you can't tell me Maxwell ain't Negro and don't look like Chico Debarge's 2nd cousin

mistermaxxx R.Kelly, Michael Jackson,Stevie wonder,Rick James,Marvin Gaye,El Debarge, Barry WHite Lionel RIchie,Isleys EWF,Lady T.,Kid creole and coconuts,the crusaders,kc sunshine band,bee gees,jW,sd,NE,JB

Miami Heat, New York Yankees,buffalo bills

i.e. black and some more black.

___________________________________________________________


DJTB YOMM

I've met some blond haired blue eyed Puerto Ricans who probably kept white from their inception on island. They are few and far between but they are actually white.
In my personal survey, most* puerto ricans don't deny their African heritage unless they are actually white. Even if it isn't the first thing they claim, they openly acknowledge most of them have some black ancestors. A good amount identity as black on the US race scale.


___________________________________________________________


DJTB YOMM

If so, they better claim PR and Black

=================
Official Okay-Super Villain™

I only play the games that I win at -
Gamertag: Innovator
PSN: DurtyGambino
Steam: Durty Gambino
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One of my friends recently introduced a Cuban cat into the fold, and it's like he goes out of his way to drop N-bombs. I had to pull him to the side to tell him I don't roll like that. It's awkward as hell to begin with, PLUS he's a light-skinned Cuban, so it seems like he's trying to see if he can get away with it.

___________

Back again for the first time.

them going out of their way to say it.

you haven't been to NY or florida huh?

********************************

Get Out The Room!
http://getouttheroom.podomatic.com
@fakewilliamkatt

"You probably wouldn't worry about what people think of you if you could know how seldom they do!" - Olin Miller

I got into an argument recently with some Puerto Ricans and I am convinced that what they are passing off as progressive acknowledgement of their ethnic heritage is thinly disguised anti-blackness.

I say this because I pose the question, "are you black". And they refused to answer the question with anything other than well I am black and Puerto Rican. There point was just answering they are black requires them to negate or ignore their Puerto Rican Heritage. I say that's bullshit because that assumes that blackness is separate and distinct from being a Puerto Rican when we know that the ethnicity Puerto Rican can range from white, native to blackness and a mix of them all. So to say I don't consider myself black, I consider myself black and Puerto Rican, I can't get pass the first statement (I don't consider myself (just) black). As if there is something wrong with being just black.

And this isn't just a minor quibble. I see this attitude associated with a fixation on color and hair texture and phenotype in general among certain Puerto Ricans, Dominicans and even Haitians. I am sure its all over the Carribean and Latin America but this is what I have seen first hand. Like it was said, the same thing happens here but I think the discussion is light years ahead in many regards. I think the more progressive crowd here figured out the way to deal with racism and colorism is not colorblindness, but embracing and acknowledging your African roots. Yeah its reductive to see everything in black and white and I am not clinging to any one drop rule, but I can't believe conflating race with ethnicity to avoid discussing race is the answer either.



I remember this discussion here about this and revisited and I don't know if I noticed the excellent points made in 13# and 25#.

**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

Being that we have made Black and African American synonyms when they're not. It's very possible, and very common that the person is saying they're not african american or that they're AA+PR but because we use the terms interchangeably, it becomes a tricky thing for folks to navigate, so they do it clumsily.

This is not to say that Puerto Rican culture isn't rife with anti-blackness which plays a role as well. But just something additional to consider in these situations.

Also, the conversation on race in the US IS lightyears ahead of Latin America. Partially due to the one-drop rule vs the miscegenation and racial mobility of latin america, and partially (and it could be argued these things are related) because there was never a civil rights movement in Latin America.

--

"You can't beat white people. You can only knock them out."

distinctive shared cultural experience that we have as Black/African American people. That being said, that distinctive shared cultural experience doesn't have distinct borders.

But I personally find it silly to hijack the a word (and give it a capital letter) that applies more universally than that specific cultural experience.
I find it to be an example of perceived American hegemony.
But folks don't wanna have that conversation.

--

"You can't beat white people. You can only knock them out."

Don't know it well but seems divisive to me.

I think you make a good point regarding Black being synonymous with African-American and I should make sure everyone is on the same page regarding vocabulary and meaning when having this discussion.

When I say Black I am saying from the Diaspora, of African heritage, which I guess doesn't mean that to everyone.




**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

there are long standing attitudes and stereotypes in place from both AAs and non AA black folk. two of my best friends are from NY and both told me stories of them being kids and things they experienced dealing with islanders.

one of them is a rasta but American born so he's spent alot of time around island folk and learned up close and personal some of the opinions they have about us...and on the flip there are stories like that of Wyclef who said when he got here as a kid he was picked on and bullied because of his accent etc. Same dynamic with us and Africans too. i think brother Bin was on to something.

>Don't know it well but seems divisive to me.
>
>I think you make a good point regarding Black being synonymous
>with African-American and I should make sure everyone is on
>the same page regarding vocabulary and meaning when having
>this discussion.
>
>When I say Black I am saying from the Diaspora, of African
>heritage, which I guess doesn't mean that to everyone.
>
>
>
>
>**********
>"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then
>they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson
>
>"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

a demonym for our subgroup.

But that's largely because we were forced into it because of the One Drop Rule, *plus* being a minority. We're the only African-descended group in any country with a One Drop Rule plus minority status. Calling ourselves just Black fit those circumstances and was not problematic or contradictory at the time. Especially since when we "claimed" the word there wasn't yet any large scale immigration from the diaspora into the US.

________________________________________
"Take the surprise out your voice Shaq."-The REAL CP3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2H5K-BUMS0

they use the 'in' word when they wanna be 'in. Can't tell a NY puerto rican otherwise

********************************

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@fakewilliamkatt

"You probably wouldn't worry about what people think of you if you could know how seldom they do!" - Olin Miller

*skatin' the rings of saturn*


..and miles to go before i sleep...

Now that it is politicially convenient they decide to claim blackness for political benefit.

There's a video puerto rican Coleman Cruz Hughes saying this damn near verbatim.

No empathy for white misery (c) BDot

"root for everybody black haters say that's crazy, wow..."

aka Africans and Eurasians mixed up.

<----

Soundcloud.com/aquil84

(HIP HOP)
http://aquil.bandcamp.com

There are various combinations and degrees of that mix. Understanding how the various colonial powers handled indigenous and slave populations can help account for the variations in the mix.

The US centric (I know PR is US commonwealth but history is different) lens is not really the best way to understand. There are definitely race issues in PR (like in DR but a lesser degree and Cuba but to a slightly higher degree) but when it came to opposing the colonial powers national identity was embraced by all. It simply isn't the same history so its silly to approach it using the same lens.

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." � Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."