white people as a whole?

That M. Obama video and the comments are touching upon an emerging thought/fact that if/when discussions about race come up around whites the response is to view the discussion as an attack on their morality (see: white fragility concept)

Because every citizen is now an amateur reporter we've been exposed to countless plain, obvious examples of acts motivated by/exacerbated race or racism. And in nearly every example there have been two views; the objective view vs the subjective.


Can we even start to have objective discussions about race if people view these artifacts with totally different eyes?



aka

even when shit is plain as day people will straight up deny what is seen or will try to move the goal posts.

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https://soundcloud.com/swageyph/yph-die-with-me

***
I'm tryna be better off, not better than...

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https://soundcloud.com/swageyph/yph-die-with-me

Those with the white privilege take it personal instead of looking at it systematically. (you said this but it bears repeating). And to be frank some do not want to challenge the social structure that benefits them.


This is why I am sarcastic during race discussions...
*****************************************

your race is kinda pointless.


"Seasons may come and your luck just may run out, and all that you'll have is some memories..."

Can a man understand childbirth or menopause? The next question would be "discuss race" in the hope that what will happen?

White people can't really understand systemic racism or its effects and even if they could have an unemotional discussion about it the result would not be a decrease in systemic racism or even race bias in general. Black males, women, and families will still be the target of white supremacy regardless.

______________________________________

Everything looks like Oprah kissing Harvey Weinstein these days

>Can a man understand childbirth or menopause?

a man cannot know what it *feels* like, but there are men who are doctors who are trained in dealing with these conditions that are limited to women.

there are also comparable things like passing kidney stones that can give a man understanding of what the pain of childbirth may be like without experiencing the full range of pain that a woman goes through

also using the male/female dichotomy to compare race is highly illogical and will lead to very fallacious analysis

this isn't to undermine your point that whites can never walk in Black peoples shoes, i'm just weary of fallacious metaphors



>
>White people can't really understand systemic racism or its
>effects and even if they could have an unemotional discussion
>about it the result would not be a decrease in systemic racism
>or even race bias in general. Black males, women, and families
>will still be the target of white supremacy regardless.

this is nonsensical fatalism and broad brush willful ignorance

it seems to me that your cosmology blocks you from being able to see anything but limited degrees of the situation.

plenty of white people have studied, wrote, worked on and discussed the ramifications of systemic racism...i know that this does not fit into the world order you have created in your mind, but to ask for objectivity from others is foolish when you are incapable of it yourself.

________________________________________________________________
whenever you did these things to the least of my brothers you did them to me

75% of whites have no friends outside of their ethnic group
That same number also claims no interaction with black people whatsoever

40% think black men are naturally violent

That's all I need to know.


>plenty of white people have studied, wrote, worked on and
>discussed the ramifications of systemic racism...i know that
>this does not fit into the world order you have created in
>your mind, but to ask for objectivity from others is foolish
>when you are incapable of it yourself.

Who cares what white people have learned about the evil white people have done? You state that like it should mean something important.

I don't expect or ask for objectivity. White supremacy can not offer such things.

______________________________________

Everything looks like Oprah kissing Harvey Weinstein these days

>75% of whites have no friends outside of their ethnic group
>That same number also claims no interaction with black people
>whatsoever

well, that leaves 25% that do...obviously you have large areas of the country that skew these numbers...but i see you quote that study a lot on here though, as if it so validates your preconceived notions about people that you are clinging to it as a shield of righteous armor

who was responsible for the study? white people? if there were white people involved in the study then why do you not see this as the ability of some to engage in objective analysis of the situation?

>40% think black men are naturally violent
>That's all I need to know.

of course it is. because if you can cherry pick info from a study that confirms your pre-held beliefs, then you can stop the process of knowledge and understanding and claim to be among the truly knowing and enlightened. I understand the impulse.

>
>>plenty of white people have studied, wrote, worked on and
>>discussed the ramifications of systemic racism...i know that
>>this does not fit into the world order you have created in
>>your mind, but to ask for objectivity from others is foolish
>>when you are incapable of it yourself.
>
>Who cares what white people have learned about the evil white
>people have done? You state that like it should mean something
>important.

what i am saying is that white scholars and historians have done actual, yknow, work to expose a lot of things in regards to race in America and how it has functioned to maintain white supremacist ideology

but you write these scholars and historians, and activisits as well, out of the picture because, again, it does not fit into the worldview that you must fit things into in order to avoid your own congnitive dissonance...

again, i understand the impulse to "have it all figured out", i understand the impulse to view the "enemy" and create a mirror image of the enemy in response...but you should not be speaking on anything resembling objectivity from anyone if you can not muster it yourself.

>I don't expect or ask for objectivity. White supremacy can not
>offer such things.

but human beings can objectively look at things...human beings can also honestly express how they see situations...


these are, again, things you do not appear to want because they threaten the world you have built in your mind...i don't know if it's ego, fear, stubborness or what, but you as an individual certainly do not appear able to listen to or hear anyone or anything that does not fit your neat little white and black boxes

________________________________________________________________
whenever you did these things to the least of my brothers you did them to me

>75% of whites have no friends outside of their ethnic group
>well, that leaves 25% that do...obviously you have large areas
>of the country that skew these numbers...but i see you quote
>that study a lot on here though, as if it so validates your
>preconceived notions about people that you are clinging to it
>as a shield of righteous armor

It is actually one of my favorite stats. Partly because it's from a white study, but also because it helps paint a clearer picture of how likely a white person is to be biased. And yes 25% of the white population are worth at least being social with. I'll admit that is armor and maybe there is something righteous about a black person knowing the odds regarding who is and is not looking to destroy them. I'd also say it's stupid to not be armed with information in ones day to day.

>who was responsible for the study? white people? if there
>were white people involved in the study then why do you not
>see this as the ability of some to engage in objective
>analysis of the situation?

Who knows why white people as a whole do studies such as this. I'd be naive to assume it's for something positive. Similar to how the Tuskgeegee scientists told folks they were studying "bad blood".

>>40% think black men are naturally violent
>>That's all I need to know.
>
>of course it is. because if you can cherry pick info from a
>study that confirms your pre-held beliefs, then you can stop
>the process of knowledge and understanding and claim to be
>among the truly knowing and enlightened. I understand the
>impulse.

I don't know about you but I'm in the group that is actively targeted by white supremacy, and I live and see that 40% played out every day so spare me on the ceasing to seek knowledge bit. I get it everyday and not even to the levels of those in more dire situations. You also failed to consider that my pursuit of knowledge led me to those stats.

>what i am saying is that white scholars and historians have
>done actual, yknow, work to expose a lot of things in regards
>to race in America and how it has functioned to maintain white
>supremacist ideology

I think people were aware of white supremacy regardless of folks like Tim Wise. It's more of an indictment against the culture than anything else. Folks don't know there's a problem until it's written about? Please.

>but you write these scholars and historians, and activisits as
>well, out of the picture because, again, it does not fit into
>the worldview that you must fit things into in order to avoid
>your own congnitive dissonance...

I write them out because they are ineffective as far as I'm concerned.

>again, i understand the impulse to "have it all figured out",
>i understand the impulse to view the "enemy" and create a
>mirror image of the enemy in response...but you should not be
>speaking on anything resembling objectivity from anyone if you
>can not muster it yourself.
>
>>I don't expect or ask for objectivity. White supremacy can
>not
>>offer such things.
>
>but human beings can objectively look at things...human beings
>can also honestly express how they see situations...

Although studies show that even on the phone white and black people will answer race based questions differently if they think the caller is a different race? So much for honesty. Turn on CNN-- see all that craziness?? Human beings did that.


>
>these are, again, things you do not appear to want because
>they threaten the world you have built in your mind...i don't
>know if it's ego, fear, stubborness or what, but you as an
>individual certainly do not appear able to listen to or hear
>anyone or anything that does not fit your neat little white
>and black boxes

Everyone would like a fair legal system and place of equal opportunity-- just not white supremacists of which the white population is largely comprised of (based of those aforementioned numbers). So until there are fewer supremacists discussions about race among differing ethnicities is a waste.

See-- we just had a discussion about race. I feel like America is in a better place already.

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Everything looks like Oprah kissing Harvey Weinstein these days

i'll try to get to it tonight...as Daheathen has pointed out i may have been too hard on you, my apologies.

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whenever you did these things to the least of my brothers you did them to me

I don't offend easily-- particularly online.

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Everything looks like Oprah kissing Harvey Weinstein these days

*****************************************
I like drinking male tears. . .they give me super strength.

way for me to understand is for me to listen to what you have to say about it and consider it and then try my best to forumulate a response that might lead to better understanding on my part.


i will say that Atillah Moor and some other posters here are special cases in my eyes...to the point where i wonder if they aren't aliases that are here to sow fatalism and negativity for whatever agenda.

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whenever you did these things to the least of my brothers you did them to me

You were very dismissive almost to the point of ridicule of Atillah Moor's thoughts and feelings of disenfranchisement and frustration with the WPS.

He has a right to feel how he feels and it is privileged for you to imply that because SOME white people have done studies etc that he shouldnt.

You also derailed by presuming that he didnt know that in fact white people have done work in racism and anti racism.


*****************************************

>You were very dismissive almost to the point of ridicule of
>Atillah Moor's thoughts and feelings of disenfranchisement and
>frustration with the WPS.

possibly...i didn't feel like i was ridiculing him/her at all, but i admittedly have read enough of Attilah's posts on these boards to feel that this is not an individual who is open to many viewpoints beyond those already held in his/her head.

but you're right in that i likely responded too much "in kind" to the post

>He has a right to feel how he feels and it is privileged for
>you to imply that because SOME white people have done studies
>etc that he shouldnt.

he has a right to how he feels, absolutely. what i have a hard time with is feeling that my honest response to what he said was based in a feeling of privelege. possibly it is, but this sets me on a slippery slope where anytime i have any slight disagreement with a Black person, on whatever issue, that it is simply my privelege...

so what this would lead one to do is simply to not respond, to stay quiet and not try to increase my understanding of the issues.

i understand fatalism and negativity...i've been there...any rigid cosmology or view of the world that purports complete and total understanding tends to lead towards these things, particularly for people in oppressed groups.

so like, Michelle Alexander, right...do you think she wrote the New Jim Crow just for Black people to read to get depressed? or do you think that she wrote it with the intent that Americans and others of all stripes might read it, evaluate it, understand the information and work towards dismantling/reforming the primary institution where white supremacy functions in our society (the JUSTICE system)?

i've seen people call this the Bible of the New CRM, rightfully so...from what i gather from Attilah, her writing the book would be pointless because all is bad, nothing will ever change, all whites are hateful and all Blacks are consigned to eternal oppression unless...idk...idk...

>You also derailed by presuming that he didnt know that in fact
>white people have done work in racism and anti racism.
>
>

that was in direct response to what he said...am i to ignore what folks actually say in my responses to them because i may appear to be talking down to them?

and FWIW, me coming across as "talking down" is a lifelong issue that is certainly not limited to my interactions with Black people...

________________________________________________________________
whenever you did these things to the least of my brothers you did them to me

I read the book and it was very well written but I think its preaching to the choir. And its also hurtful that quantitative data gets the attention rather than peoples lived experiences. eg. talking about being brutalized by LEO is considered whining (you must have done something wrong) but the actual statistics get all the publicity.

What I would like for you to consider especially when talking about this issue with a member of the marginalized community is that THEY live the oppression everyday and yes they are aware that members of the privileged make be actively working to end the oppression. Those facts do not make it hurt any less and some folks are not in the business of giving out ally cookies.

Yes sometimes you (general you) have to be quiet and really listen instead of trying to refute or "teach" or prove to be the exception to the rule.
*****************************************

>I read the book and it was very well written but I think its
>preaching to the choir. And its also hurtful that quantitative
>data gets the attention rather than peoples lived experiences.
>eg. talking about being brutalized by LEO is considered
>whining (you must have done something wrong) but the actual
>statistics get all the publicity.

me personally i don't doubt when Black people say they've been brutalized...i choose to trust them...you're very correct that many many many whites, partly out of defensiveness, partly just out of pure ignorance and partly becaue of pure racism, simply do not trust Black people saying the police oppress them, despite the extremely wealthy amount of evidence to these facts and the increasing verification via audio and video...

*EYE* have been brutalized by police, true story...my feeling about that has never been "but it happened to me too" but since it happened (1996) "i probably would be dead or crippled if i wasn't white"...and this is one of the times in life i thought i might truly die, but i still believe it would have been much worse for me if i wasn't protected by my skin color

>What I would like for you to consider especially when talking
>about this issue with a member of the marginalized community
>is that THEY live the oppression everyday and yes they are
>aware that members of the privileged make be actively working
>to end the oppression. Those facts do not make it hurt any
>less and some folks are not in the business of giving out ally
>cookies.

fair enough...stated a bit harshly, but not unfairly harsh...that said i DO have personal interest in these issues...and i mean that beyond the "oppression anywhere is oppression everywhere" idea (which i do subscribe to for what it is), i mean that there are people i deeply, deeply care about that face it and live it (i'm talking about friends and family, i don't want to be that guy but i want it to be clear that i am invested in this because i care about people not being brutalized, not because i want to preserve my feelings...if i was only intereseted in preserving my feelings i woulda blue pill'd it long ago)...

also let me say that i am quite proud of the way Young Black Americans have stood up for themselves over the past few years...


>
>Yes sometimes you (general you) have to be quiet and really
>listen instead of trying to refute or "teach" or prove to be
>the exception to the rule.

again, this is fair, my problem is these issues are important to me so i tend to speak on them even when i might appear to be defensive or what have you.

________________________________________________________________
whenever you did these things to the least of my brothers you did them to me

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/cafe/what-white-america-can-learn-from-south-africas-blunt-race-talk

Is a good starting point.

We also have to learn our history. Not just slavery or Jim Crow laws, but red lining, government programs we didn't have access to, the current credit laws, the prison system, public housing and lead poisoning etc

Too often we want to act as if pull your boots up and self reliance is enough of a determining factor for overcoming or dealing with racial inequality. It doesn't have to be all or nothing in which the white man held us back or we overcame him. The situations are more nuanced and should be treated as such.

------
“There is no fate that cannot be surmounted by scorn.” -Albert Camus

From what I quickly read it doesn't sound like the attitudes are any less absurd.

"They attacked us when we got here so we had to attack back" lol really? If the guy who said that lived in the states his name would be Maynard.

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Everything looks like Oprah kissing Harvey Weinstein these days

Sounds like you're saying Sisyphus should roll that boulder to the top of the hill in the hope it won't roll back down next time.

______________________________________

Everything looks like Oprah kissing Harvey Weinstein these days

Everyone knows the white man's ice is colder.

______________________________________

Everything looks like Oprah kissing Harvey Weinstein these days

fuck you.

then no, objective discussion of the issue is indeed impossible

i get the lack of trust in any of us, i get the idea that we all benefit from yt-supremacist ideology and practice (we do)...what i do not get is an eductated American adult who still so broadly categorizes groups of people without thinking twice about it.

i know, i know, i haven't earned having my feelings hurt and white feelings do not matter on the issue (i'm actually being genuine here, my *feelings* don't matter and my feelings aren't hurt) but basic logic dictates that when two "sides" see each other as monoliths there will never ever be any ability to objectively discuss anything...

________________________________________________________________
whenever you did these things to the least of my brothers you did them to me

Get rid of white supremacy and there goes your monolith(s). But black folks won't be dismantling it.

______________________________________

Everything looks like Oprah kissing Harvey Weinstein these days

and, no, that does not make all white people a monolith

try again

________________________________________________________________
whenever you did these things to the least of my brothers you did them to me

If there were no white supremacy there would be more of an ability by either group to see each other as equals, people, etc.

Those who dehumanize others are themselves dehumanized and that is what we live with today. That exists and was started by white supremacy. Remove the white supremacy and you will see everything else melt.

______________________________________

Everything looks like Oprah kissing Harvey Weinstein these days

>white people as a whole?
>
>That M. Obama video and the comments are touching upon an
>emerging thought/fact that if/when discussions about race come
>up around whites the response is to view the discussion as an
>attack on their morality (see: white fragility concept)
>
>Because every citizen is now an amateur reporter we've been
>exposed to countless plain, obvious examples of acts motivated
>by/exacerbated race or racism. And in nearly every example
>there have been two views; the objective view vs the
>subjective.
>
>
>Can we even start to have objective discussions about race if
>people view these artifacts with totally different eyes?
>
>
>
>aka
>
>even when shit is plain as day people will straight up deny
>what is seen or will try to move the goal posts.

It has to be a bunch of personal, individual conversations with people you actually know and respect... which is hard considering how segregated we still are.

This shit is emotional and complicated... engaging the wrong people on stuff like this is often a waste of time because they'e more interested in getting shit off their chest than having a real conversation.

<-><-><-><-><-><-><-><-><->
<-><-><-><-><-><-><-><-><->

free education

free medical

half off on taxes

equal living conditions

no more hoods and ghettos

equal education,credit


so until we truly have a equal america then no.

mistermaxxx R.Kelly, Michael Jackson,Stevie wonder,Rick James,Marvin Gaye,El Debarge, Barry WHite Lionel RIchie,Isleys EWF,Lady T.,Kid creole and coconuts,the crusaders,kc sunshine band,bee gees,jW,sd,NE,JB

Miami Heat, New York Yankees,buffalo bills

the rest would be just preaching to the keyboard/drums...not quite the choir

=======================================
Coolin...

either fully "gets it" or there is no hope that they will ever "get it"

good whites vs. bad whites

and bad whites so outnumber good whites that...

oh god, my head hurts...


y'know that form of racism where Black people are expected to either be completely perfect and acceptable to whites or inherently corrupted and inferior?

yeah...we've taught our evil well...

________________________________________________________________
whenever you did these things to the least of my brothers you did them to me

=======================================
Coolin...

good question...

________________________________________________________________
whenever you did these things to the least of my brothers you did them to me

earlier reply

I didn't say anything about good whites or bad whites

I said it wouldn't reach those who it needs to...


what is there to talk about?
ain't no secrets
it's all in front of ALL of our faces
so what is there to talk about?
we had 400 years to talk

people will live their life the way they choose to


talking about the obvious doesn't change things

=======================================
Coolin...

>
>talking about the obvious doesn't change things

something being obvious to you does not mean that it's obvious to everyone

we all deal with our various levels of conditioning and fear of "the other"

my contention is simply that ignoring it is the best way to make no progress of any kind...also why i, possibly against my better judgment, engaged the issue because i want it to be clear that many of "us" are ready and willing to discuss these issues even if it means we have to face the fact that many of our assumptions are wrong

i value the exchange, i've had several on these very boards that have made me question my beliefs and what they are based on and i believe that has helped me put better practice into the world as a result...

________________________________________________________________
whenever you did these things to the least of my brothers you did them to me

See my comment about taking it personal. . .

http://s582.photobucket.com/user/muphassa/media/28wkl15.gif.html
*****************************************
I like drinking male tears. . .they give me super strength.

if i was i wouldn't engage the post, i'd go on twitter and do self-righteous subtweets...i said my head hurts because the statement i made reminded me clearly of a video of Malcolm X when he was "evolving" and some dumb white reported asked him "so you no longer think all white people are bad?" and he became visibly agitated, took off his glasses, rubbed his eyes and in a clearly annoyed voice said "it's not about good or bad whites or blacks, it's about good or bad people" (paraphrasing)

________________________________________________________________
whenever you did these things to the least of my brothers you did them to me

I doubt it. I doubt either side is capable. It's a human fallacy to think any of us are capable of being objective with anything that is so personal and directly affect our interest.


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson


"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're

fuck you.

humans are gonna human

next question

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https://soundcloud.com/swageyph/yph-die-with-me

i'm stealing that.

**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson


"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're

So we're better suited for dealing w/them on 'nuetral ground.'

********************************

Get Out The Room!
http://getouttheroom.podomatic.com
@fakewilliamkatt

"You probably wouldn't worry about what people think of you if you could know how seldom they do!" - Olin Miller

but the thing is....it's clear to me that there are degrees to this.

I will give up on a conversation if I can sense someone is not even making an attempt to be objective. And I'm assuming here that by 'objective' we are meaning something like 'able to talk about racism on a macro level without having our personal experiences interfere'.

For example....if a white person in America were to say 'I got beat up by 4 black guys a couple years ago. So I've suffered just as much racism as anybody else'.....we can probly all agree that they aren't even trying to be objective. Now counter that with a white person who says 'I got beat up by 4 black guys a couple years ago...but this one specific experience I had does not represent the mean. I assume that black people, on a whole, experience more racism than I do despite this particular incident'.

Very clearly, the second person is making more of an attempt to be objective than the first. And I'd contend it's probably more useful to have a discussion with him than it is the former.

I don't think we need for white people to understand racism/white supremacy to dismantle it. I'm also too busy breaking down centuries of self-hate amongst my own people to be bothered.

I also don't necessarily value objectivity. It's a bs Eurocentric value that I have never seen applied well. I don't think objectivity exists.

>It's a bs
>Eurocentric value

WHAT A TIME TO BE ALIVE

from what i see, the mindset from of alot white people is, yeah racism still exists on some scale, but a big part of the problem is that too many black people make everything about race, lean on it, and use it as an excuse for just about everything.

and i think if race doesn't really factor into your day to day, it doesn't really register that it's a big deal, other than it's just something they're tired of hearing about.

so when they see a video of the first lady of the united states talking about how hard black people have to work to make it, what they hear is "white people have it easy" "black people are the only ones who have problems and have to bust their ass to make it" so they get defensive, and search for examples of how minorities get over on things like scholarships, or affirmative action, accuse her of dividing us... or just go for the throat and attack her character.

she seemed pretty aware in her speech that this was just a pep talk to the choir though. 'this is how it is. keep pushing'
Barry usually tries to go with the diplomatic "on one hand/on the other hand" approach, and people get just as defensive because they only hear the "on one hand" part.

______________________________________

Everything looks like Oprah kissing Harvey Weinstein these days

There is no such thing as "objective discourse" when it comes to something as wholly subjective as race and the human experience.

-->

This never occurred to me as I was putting this post together. I also have a nose on my face that I just discovered.

***********************************************************
https://soundcloud.com/swageyph/yph-die-with-me

on okp

yikes

my apologies to all involved

________________________________________________________________
whenever you did these things to the least of my brothers you did them to me

WHAT A TIME TO BE ALIVE

-->

More ebbing than flowing unfortunately, but periods like the Renaissance, 18th century enlightenment, etc

Im now realizing that these periods are so rare they get individual names lol

WHAT A TIME TO BE ALIVE

All this country does is talk about race. Every month or two there's a new incident that makes the state of race in America the topic du jour and everybody responds in the most predictable of ways: Our most prominent black writers will very eloquently scold white America, all the liberal writers will blame the less enlightened white people, prominent conservative writers will weigh in for the other side while being moderately racist, internet commentors will be vehemently racist. John Oliver/Jon Stewart will have an epic rant about said incident that will get posted a million times on Twitter.And so on. There's plenty of conversations being had, with absolutely nothing changing.

What we need is all of our brightest minds to come up with concrete plans for black justice/achievement that bypasses the need to get racist white people on our side. Trying to talk America out of being racist is a fool's errand.