isn't warranted in this case?

so a friend of mine from grad school started a CEO branding firm when we graduated. i became the first employee and the VP of finance when he asked me to join the company. a couple of years in i decided i wanted to do something creative so i convinced him to allow me to teach myself design and to do the design work that we were subcontracting out for clients. this was about 8 years ago.

since then i have pretty much built the design arm of the company. we have one other designer and a creative director that were added within the past year but my work is what built the division. i actually could have been the creative director but at the time i wanted to concentrate on design. more and more now i am doing creative director type duties because the creative director is really that great.

anyway today it came up that i have been doing design work for an old client who apparently is now back as a client. the only way it came up was because my friend (the CEO) put in a request asking me to update an old media kit from like 3 years ago...i let him know that i had done an updated kit for her last month and sent it to him. mind you i have been designing this clients teen magazine four times a year since 2013 so at this point i see her as my client.

so with this disclosure he then says we need to talk about me doing work with clients outside of the company. mind you i am not an employee. i am an independent contractor. so i tell him i am fine with not doing work with clients up to 6 months after they are no longer working with the company. he then wants to say that i can not do work with any clients until three years after they no longer have a relationship with the company. he throws out the industry standard type jargon.

i then go in about the fact that i built the design arm of the company and instead of spending time building my own business i have been helping him build his. mind you i go the extra mile and actually care bout the company. yes it is a mutually beneficial relationship because i have a client pool...but never in a million years did i think that he would suggest that i could not work with the clients for years after they no longer had a relationship with the company.

i then tell him that is fine and i will need to cut down the work i do with the company so that i can concentrate on building my own client base. of course he then back tracks. so now he is proposing a 25% finder's fee instead.

i then ask him two questions...does he use my design work to acquire new customers? and how much value does that bring to the company?

he responds saying i am a fair person and whatever i decide he will roll with. i haven't responded yet.

is it crazy that i don't think any type of finders fee is warranted? am i being unresaonable? i might consider 10% for a year. i feel like this situation is mutually beneficial for both parties and that should be enough. i wouldn't ask him for anything for clients i referred to the business.

i feel kinda bad because after all this he asked me to call him...and he sounded it beat down...he said he is tired...and then asked me advice about another hard decision that he needs to make in the company that we had been discussing the past few days. we didn't discuss this situation at all on the phone but at the end he said i made him feel better about the decision he has to make. at the end of the day he is my friend too and i am a softy lol

Poll result (5 votes) Yes. You are an A$$. (2 votes) Vote Nope. Get that guap. (3 votes) Vote

i think he takes for granted the value i bring
not just in design
but in how i communicate with clients
how i am constantly learning new things and adding to our arsenal
how he can basically give me any design job and know that it will likely be no more than a couple revisions until it is finalized
how certain stuff he doesn't have to explain to me because i understand the business
how he doesn't have to micromanage me and i am rarely ever late on a deadline for a project
how half the time i do more work than i bill for
i could go on

the key to happiness is not being rich;
it's doing something arduous and
creating something of value and then
being able to reflect on the fruits of your labor

the key to happiness is not being rich;
it's doing something arduous and
creating something of value and then
being able to reflect on the fruits of your labor

odesk, freelancer, elance, etc all got folks doing logos for dirt cheap.

---------------------------

forcing myself to actually respond to you is like bathing in ebola virus. - Binlahab

Like there is stupid, and then there is you, and then there is dead. - VAsBestBBW

R.I.P. Disco D

today based on a recommendation from a client (not connected to the one discussed in this thread lol)

the approved budget is $10K for a brand identity system for two connected brands and then another healthy budget for website design once that is completed

i have done a couple of identity projects that size in the past. these type of projects are worthwhile.

i believe i will be coming out of retirement for this one lol

the key to happiness is not being rich;
it's doing something arduous and
creating something of value and then
being able to reflect on the fruits of your labor

**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson


"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're

the key to happiness is not being rich;
it's doing something arduous and
creating something of value and then
being able to reflect on the fruits of your labor

..I can't imagine signing on as an independent contractor without specific language regarding this scenario.



*skatin' the rings of saturn*


..and miles to go before i sleep...

this discussion will lead to some kind of written agreement created outlining the decision

the key to happiness is not being rich;
it's doing something arduous and
creating something of value and then
being able to reflect on the fruits of your labor

..that contract is the first step in any positive working relationship and should include details regarding non compete clauses.

should've been in place from the start, but you definitely need that in place moving forward.




*skatin' the rings of saturn*


..and miles to go before i sleep...

unless we get some contracts popping, PARTICULARLY since he just threw out a no compete clause

>..that contract is the first step in any positive working
>relationship and should include details regarding non compete
>clauses.
>
>should've been in place from the start, but you definitely
>need that in place moving forward.
>
>
>
>
>*skatin' the rings of saturn*
>
>
>..and miles to go before i sleep...

bc they are essentially providing you with future clients...

it sounds like you are being adequately paid for the contract work you do with them otherwise

so although it is largely mutually beneficial it sounds more beneficial for you long-term without the finders fee...your communication with those clients sounds less likely to really benefit them much though and seems to fall within normal communication as a contractor...

but it sounds like you have a lot of negotiating power...

imho finding business is slightly more beneficial than maintaining business especially when that maintaining part benefits you personally just as much as it benefits the company

the 10% seems somewhat fair imho...but if you can get him to nix it or drop it to 5%...it may be worth it to preserve the quality of yall working relationship and friendship

Let me sport my Air Hyperbole 2010s in peace. (c) ansomble

Building repetoires (c) spm since 1983

he has a branding company where he provides all of these things for clients and when the client leaves, they should not be able to still use you for design. That's actually valid and standard. Perhaps he didn't think of this in the past, but why would he think you'd continue to do a portion of the work the company got paid for collectively. to be honest, it can look like your taking these customers from the business (i know you aren't, he knows it but if he lets you do this, then others who don't know it, will take advantage).

I can see his issue.

Think about it...you build a company designing and hire a few designers and when certain clients stop using your business, they still use your designers and you never hear about it until much later...how would you feel?

the three year wait to work with them is a reasonable request. farming them for clients really isn't a good idea. i don't know how i feel about the finder's fee. i get his point though because if it wasn't for the branding company, you wouldn't have some of the clients you have...

I know she has helped him build his company but that's what you are supposed to do when you work for a company.

it doesn't give you right to farm his company for clients...the thing is, if his company didn't provide this service then her doing this would be fine...still not-Kosher but at least there's no competition. (for example if she was a caterer and was cooking for the clients). but this is a service his company provides and it could be taking as they only truly needed design and she's cheaper so why stay with the brand company when they can just get the designs they need and do the rest themselves.

being an IC doesn't matter either. I was one with Hopkins before and they stated i couldn't work for several companies while working with them and for a period of 5 years following. thankfully it wasn't anyone i wanted to work for.

than design...


>but this is a
>service his company provides and it could be taking as they
>only truly needed design and she's cheaper so why stay with
>the brand company when they can just get the designs they need
>and do the rest themselves.


>being an IC doesn't matter either. I was one with Hopkins
>before and they stated i couldn't work for several companies
>while working with them and for a period of 5 years following.
>thankfully it wasn't anyone i wanted to work for.

interesting....the reading i did stated that non-competes typically only apply to employees not independnt contractors....

the key to happiness is not being rich;
it's doing something arduous and
creating something of value and then
being able to reflect on the fruits of your labor

but that's part of his service package correct? and when the client doesn't see value or doesn't need his services anymore, that would seemingly include all the services he offers. Did the client ask if they could keep using you for design and he say no? I'm just wondering how this partnership continued...where she would keep using you for design.

I'm wondering why they couldn't just keep paying the branding company for your services that way this whole issue could have been avoided.

but I feel like she has some leverage and they can work it out.

However, I don't think she could do this with anyone else in the industry. It's standard practice that clients are off limits for X amount of time.

If he was an ass he could say "bye nigga, build your brand"

>If he was an ass he could say "bye nigga, build your brand"

i am actually debating whether the universe is pushing me in this direction anyway. before this conversation i was considering proposing to him a retainer that would guarantee him more hours of my time and exchange for an easier and more stable billing process for me.

the key to happiness is not being rich;
it's doing something arduous and
creating something of value and then
being able to reflect on the fruits of your labor

i get it from the perspective of someone who hasn't been with the business since the very beginning and built the department in question. and i think it would be valid if i was an employee. but as an independent contractor to me that is the nature of the business.

but since i do understand his position, that is why i said that if the three year thing is indeed what he needs to do then i would need to pull back on the design work i do with the company and focus that energy on building my own client base. with the amount of work i do now i can't do both effectively.

the company essentially offers PR, book publishing/marketing, speaker management and design services.

i pretty much design the media kits for clients as well as their personal branding websites. these two areas are not the core of the business. the clients basically sign up for PR and book publishing/marketing....and then get my services as an extension of that. but both are one of the first real tangible things that i client gets and are essential to their PR campaigns and book sales.

i just don't see how if a client came to me for a website 6 months after the fact would be detrimental to the health of the company. there is one client in particular that i have a great relationship with and is a serial entrepreneur. i would not want to be in a position to not be able to work with him quickly in the future is the company and him parted ways.

and in all honesty i am invested in building this company. i have spent my own personal time putting in best practices for graphic and web design for the company. it is a great company that has potential. but i can't continue to do so knowing that if something happens i would be high and dry for my own business.

the key to happiness is not being rich;
it's doing something arduous and
creating something of value and then
being able to reflect on the fruits of your labor

You keep talking about building your own company but his concern is HIS company.

From the sound of it you have a pretty good relationship so I'm sure you can work something out.

don't throw ya tablets at me but it seems that his firm is a good source of biz for her

and if they offer her services as a side 'a la carte' thing then they could charge a fee to the clients that is built into hers

i'd only suggest this if the $ was right on both ends and she could ultimately provide design services moving forward to anyone

i sort of see her point. take away all the complications of how she helped start the company, it just looks like his firm is no longer needed for PR but they need the design so they hit her up. there's a bit of a gray area in working on stuff again that she created under the firm but that does happen, no? people having one person do their website and having someone else upgrade/update?

maybe there's room for both to make money if the firm gets to stay on as a manager of her services. they'd probably push more design services on their clients and everyone could win

*************************************
like.me
http://tinyurl.com/3z8486u

"if the children are not initiated into the village they will burn it down just to feel its warmth." - african proverb

thats how i've been seeing it work out on my end

sounds like two companies at this point with different demands though related services

maybe he can be convinced to build out
while she builds her company within his


a lot more paperwork and much more to figure out and problem solve
but if don't right this can be mutually beneficial

~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

>and if they offer her services as a side 'a la carte' thing
>then they could charge a fee to the clients that is built into
>hers

he basically charges the client about 25%-40% more than what i charge him. that is another reason why i am taken aback by the whole thing. he has been making additional money off of my services for years with no pushback from me. communicating the ala carte aspect wouldn't work from a client perspective. the clients need to feel like they are working with one company seemlessly. so when they work with me they still need to feel like I am apart of the company not a separate entity.


>i sort of see her point. take away all the complications of
>how she helped start the company, it just looks like his firm
>is no longer needed for PR but they need the design so they
>hit her up. there's a bit of a gray area in working on stuff
>again that she created under the firm but that does happen,
>no? people having one person do their website and having
>someone else upgrade/update?

working on stuff i designed with the firm rarely happens. in the 8 years it has only happened once and it was a complete redesign that didn't use any of the previous aspects of the design. also to date there has only been one client that i worked with after the fact that was an old client. that is the client that sparked the entire discussion. so i haven't been brokering side deals or anything like that. that particular client actually asked him back in 2013 if he minded she asked me to do some work and he said he was fine with it. he remembered that as the conversation progressed yesterday.


>maybe there's room for both to make money if the firm gets to
>stay on as a manager of her services. they'd probably push
>more design services on their clients and everyone could win

this is kind of where we are. at this point there is more design work than i can handle. i literally had to stop taking new projects from them until after May 1st and there are already two projects waiting for me. I am typically managing about five projects a month. one fo the projects this month is a huge markeitng kit for the company....essentially a media kit to use for pitching to new clients. It has been expressed how extremely important it is and I know that there is a huge deal up the pike that I assume he wants to use it for. So I think the volume of work will continually increase.

the key to happiness is not being rich;
it's doing something arduous and
creating something of value and then
being able to reflect on the fruits of your labor

>
>>and if they offer her services as a side 'a la carte' thing
>>then they could charge a fee to the clients that is built
>into
>>hers
>
>he basically charges the client about 25%-40% more than what i
>charge him. that is another reason why i am taken aback by the
>whole thing. he has been making additional money off of my
>services for years with no pushback from me. communicating the
>ala carte aspect wouldn't work from a client perspective. the
>clients need to feel like they are working with one company
>seemlessly. so when they work with me they still need to feel
>like I am apart of the company not a separate entity.
>

well yeah the clients don't need to know that but the ones that come to you separately do know so what's the issue? i'm a little confused. i would think he wouldn't want the clients to know and you don't care but you seem to care as well. taking on clients after the fact lifts that veil

*************************************
like.me
http://tinyurl.com/3z8486u

"if the children are not initiated into the village they will burn it down just to feel its warmth." - african proverb

no i don't care about the upcharge and don't think it is something he should communicate to them. i think he should be able to increase his margin however he chooses. but i do kind of see what you are saying. are you saying....if a charged a past client that became a new client less than he did then it could diminish his brand?

the key to happiness is not being rich;
it's doing something arduous and
creating something of value and then
being able to reflect on the fruits of your labor

this could have been avoided if you had just told him she hit you up to do more work for her when it happened. you say he's your friend, so i don't know why you didn't bring it up (This is NO type of shade), but just on some...hey you know that client we worked with, she wanted me to help with this and you two could have worked it out for the future...it just looks bad.

no it's not hurting his business, but instead of going to his business to work this out, she came to you...so there is potential loss of work.

wasn't anything sneaky about it.

the key to happiness is not being rich;
it's doing something arduous and
creating something of value and then
being able to reflect on the fruits of your labor

but if it's an issue now, ya'll should both sit down and amend your contract. i would have suggested the a al carte thing (and the client would work through his business with you, so no they wouldn't think they are working with DaPitts Inc, you would just be getting paid a separate fee form the business). moving forward, if he has clients that just want design and he refers them directly to you...then you pay him a fee. but you shouldn't pay for a client coming to you wanting to work solely with you...but as a friend, i would tell him (if the client doesn't).

What he's saying isn't unreasonable at all, the problem is that he didn't lay that out for you at the onset of your business relationship.

This right here is a head scratcher. The only way this comes out of your mouth is when you're too cool with your boss.

>i then go in about the fact that i built the design arm of the
>company and instead of spending time building my own business
>i have been helping him build his


Let my love slide in and never slip out

i started out as a partner in the company.
i pulled back as partner when the company was not going the direction that i thought it could be profitable.
several years later he ended up moving in the direction that i suggested all along.
and the conversation we had about the other decision he has to make is even more in the vein of what i suggested back then.
also i contributed a lot to where the company is now

the key to happiness is not being rich;
it's doing something arduous and
creating something of value and then
being able to reflect on the fruits of your labor

do you have enough work to bounce right now?

putting my foot even more IN the door....which is why i am re-evaluating whether that is a good idea or not after that convo.

I am also a risk taker and if i need to part ways i know i have what it takes to figure out how to build my own client base. i do great work and communicate well with clients. I don't doubt if I actually marketed my services that i could grow my own client base. I just haven't needed to.

the key to happiness is not being rich;
it's doing something arduous and
creating something of value and then
being able to reflect on the fruits of your labor

you and he are starting to realize your value

it still sounds like it can be worked out

i wish i knew of a scenario...no wait i do


i think at my company when similar issues have arisen
they set up shop under neath the umbrella of the original company

its own firm but under the shelter of the original company

it works out somestimes and sometimes not
i'm positive there is a non compete clause but i notice that what that company is then able to do to obtain is business that would compete with the original company, that that company would not have originally been able to take on

the smaller company uses some of the services that larger company has for a fee and the larger company get a share of the profit from the smaller company

all this to say it can be figured out

btw one or two of the smaller companies have been bought outright when the entire company was merged (swallowed by yet an even larger company)
there was a bit of grumbling but this is millionaires grumbling about being out of a job lol


i think you may need to start thinking 'company' instead of 'independent contractor'

=)
~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

and funny enough i have thought about that exact set-up several times over the past year or so....making the design arm an entity unto itself for which i would be a partner. i wouldn't want to integrate my current company as i want the flexibility to other things with it if needed. but yeah....this has been a thought of mine. i'm just not 100% in yet because he and i often see different when it comes to business strategy. he doesn't think things all the way through a lot of the times. he grows without thinking about the consequences of that growth. but based on the convo yesterday he is back to shrinking areas of the business and concentrating on the true cores of the business which is a good sign. but yes...you are right. this is the crossroads we are at.

the key to happiness is not being rich;
it's doing something arduous and
creating something of value and then
being able to reflect on the fruits of your labor

I have a few questions and you sound like the right person to talk to.

the key to happiness is not being rich;
it's doing something arduous and
creating something of value and then
being able to reflect on the fruits of your labor

thx.

because it CAN be done
it HAS been done

businesses grow and shrink
and you are at a potential growth
unfortunately i'm not savvy or knowledgable enough on how to tell you to approach him so this can work out for you both

but i can tell you this is done all the time
~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

http://board.okayplayer.com/okp.php?az=show_topics&forum=32


*skatin' the rings of saturn*


..and miles to go before i sleep...

on one hand you saying u helped build the company and on the other "but i'm just an independent contractor"

those 2 facts kinda contradict each other a bit

teef's idea about them using an al a carte relationship is a good one though bc then it builds a more established business relationship and could lead to the building of your own business long-term

that being said...it still sounds like you benefit more than they do by taking future projects with clients of the company

if the a la carte thing can't be done...the % isn't really a big deal especially since you can slightly adjust your rates to compensate as needed

Let me sport my Air Hyperbole 2010s in peace. (c) ansomble

Building repetoires (c) spm since 1983

state.

It's hard to make a proper assesment without knowing more, of course, but what you describe sounds problematic for both sides.

First of all, your CEO friend is right.. non-competes are pretty standard in most industries. Especially firms doing any kind of consulting. Expectations and any accompanying restrictions should not only be clearly outlined in your signed contract/consulting agreement but in the company's policies and procedures as well. If there is little of either documentation to protect your or the company's interests then that's a larger issue.

Next, I think implementing a finder's fee is terrible strategy because it exposes the business to a lot of risk. I mean, does your CEO friend want to continue as a branding agency or go into headhunting/placement? Lol. So his employees and subcontractors are free to steal clients as long as he gets a measly 10%?? That doesn't sound sustainable and it would negatively impact growth. Why would he even consider competing against his staff?

Last, I think you are claiming a little too much ownership on the past deliverables you completed under the auspices of the company. As an IC, you were compensated for your work. If you feel that your contributions are of greater value than what you are receiving then perhaps there needs to be a contract modification and you should negotiate a higher rate. OR cut ties, after you have fulfilled your contractual obligations so you can do your own thing.

But ya.. the whole revolving door of clientele between an employee/subcontractor and the company is not good business, and actually grounds for termination in a lot of organizations. Are we talking tiny startup or SME here?? Off top, it sounds like the CEO needs to get company policies and procedures in check, issue a memo to all employees/subcontractors asap and modify all existing contracts to protect his business..

since theres no contract its a sticky situation to say what each side is obligated to do. I see both sides but legally you don't owe him anything. But you have to see his side too. Finders fee's for THOSE particular clients who leave is fine is actually fine. Don't think just because you built his design team that you are owed anything from the company you went into that relationship with no contract. To assume he should let you take former clients is pretty ridiculous. Thats where the line of friendship and bad business are coming into play on both ends.

What i think you should do is figure out what you wanna do ON PAPER with him and if you do want to take the design team for yourself and become a partner in his company or an owner of your own firm who outsources to him do it now. I think this is a good opportunity to state your value and find a way to either leave or work within the company as a partner in a the smoothest way possible. But to act as if you are owed the right based on what you did isn't fair the same way its not fair for him to dictate who you can and cant work with after the fact.

Also you are an ass for spelling it "A$$" more than once in this post LMAO jk
____

TWITTER : Heinz21st

IG : H_N_Z

don't shoot me lol but I have made a decision and it is due greatly in part to this discussion. so thanks so much for everyone that engaged in it.

so i had to step back and really remember what i want business wise in the long term. my goal has always been to transition out of client work and into designing a product and in this situation i forgot that.

i was so focused on not being able to work with these clients in the future that i forgot that client work really isn't my ultimate goal. so this entire conversation has re-directed me.

so with that said....i tossed the ball back in his court. i told him i am cool with whatever length of time he wants to create for the agreement. no finder's fee. just an agreement to not work with current or former clients for a designated time period.

yeah it maybe possible that i could lose out on some future work for a client from the company (one in particular that had me trying to hold on) but the reality is that isn't the path that my ideal life would take.

So yeah...I am taking this as a challenge. A challenge to create what I want and not have the safety net of the clients from the company. Time to step it up.

Thanks all for helping me see that.

and I agree with lfresh .... i wish we had a business board.

the key to happiness is not being rich;
it's doing something arduous and
creating something of value and then
being able to reflect on the fruits of your labor

which i think is a fair and reasonable compromise

the key to happiness is not being rich;
it's doing something arduous and
creating something of value and then
being able to reflect on the fruits of your labor