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Subject: ""No place for self-pity, no room for fear" - Toni Morrison" Previous topic | Next topic
imcvspl
Member since Mar 07th 2005
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Tue Mar-24-15 10:21 PM

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""No place for self-pity, no room for fear" - Toni Morrison"
Tue Mar-24-15 10:47 PM by imcvspl

  

          

http://www.thenation.com/article/198465/no-place-self-pity-no-room-fear

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." � Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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Topic Outline
Subject Author Message Date ID
Eh, cool article but 2 points of contention.
Mar 24th 2015
1
RE: Eh, cool article but 2 points of contention.
Mar 25th 2015
2
Nah, Black people are not some super human/sub human work animals bruh.
Mar 25th 2015
4
      RE: Nah, Black people are not some super human/sub human work animals br...
Mar 25th 2015
7
      Yeah, I don't agree that they enslaved our ancestors b/c they believed
Mar 25th 2015
10
           RE: Yeah, I don't agree that they enslaved our ancestors b/c they believ...
Mar 25th 2015
12
                well, damn.
Mar 25th 2015
13
                LoL, I am aware of Arabs & Euros pilfering Black African people, their l...
Mar 25th 2015
15
                     again, it was about more than being Black.
Mar 25th 2015
17
                          Yeah, our analytics are different. I don't see slavery as mostly a labor...
Mar 25th 2015
19
                               I'll definitely give it a look, thanks.
Mar 25th 2015
21
                                    Hmm, to address your question...
Mar 25th 2015
28
                                         RE: Hmm, to address your question...
Mar 25th 2015
35
      The ones who survived capture, being marched to the coast
Mar 25th 2015
8
           yup
Mar 25th 2015
18
How you going to tell Toni Morrison what type of friend she has? LOL.
Mar 25th 2015
9
      LoL, I didn't tell TM shit tho.
Mar 25th 2015
11
I find alot of older people find this younger generation to be mad soft
Mar 25th 2015
3
Thankfully this was not her point.
Mar 25th 2015
6
      No it wasn 't. She can only speak for herself. but it's crazy to me
Mar 25th 2015
14
she right.
Mar 25th 2015
5
excellent posting
Mar 25th 2015
16
GOAT with that truth
Mar 25th 2015
20
It's weird because saying that message now seems to be getting peopel
Mar 25th 2015
22
      Difference with them and TM
Mar 25th 2015
24
      yup!
Mar 25th 2015
26
      Who out there is absolving white supremacy though
Mar 25th 2015
27
           yawn
Mar 25th 2015
29
           the ones saying we need to forget about the past and move forward
Mar 25th 2015
30
           I hear you but who is saying that?
Mar 25th 2015
32
                Common, for one.
Mar 25th 2015
33
                     Oh wow, he did use the term "forget about the past". OK point taken.
Mar 25th 2015
34
           its a typical strawmen offered up to justify this idea that instituional
Mar 25th 2015
31
      ^^^^yep becsuse according to some on okp saying that we are the
Mar 25th 2015
25
not when everything is fine, but in times of dread
Mar 25th 2015
23

no_i_cant_dance
Member since Apr 10th 2006
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Tue Mar-24-15 11:01 PM

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1. "Eh, cool article but 2 points of contention."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

1) Her friend is a well-intentioned asshole to be like 'fuck you for being depressed, go make art b/c the people need it!!' Like, she is allowed to be depressed & articulate that/sit w/ that feeling for as long as it takes. I'm not here for that type of shit & the demand for Black women to perform labor b/c times are hard...FOH

2) Slavery is the 1st form of capitalism BUT it was not primarily about money (I know TM doesn't use the word "primarily" but I feel like it's implied). Like, more money could've been made by enslaving white Euros & they chose not to. There's a great paper/video lecture given by Dr. Jared Sexton that awesomely articulates that land & capital were not necessary for slavery to take place b/c during the Middle Passage (on the boat) slavery was taking place on the high seas w/ no land or capital in sight.



<<Mood...Poppy Okotcha in Look 1 at Ashish Fall 2016
________________________________________

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sa7KBq0q5bU

  

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Mr. ManC
Member since Jan 26th 2009
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Wed Mar-25-15 06:07 AM

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2. "RE: Eh, cool article but 2 points of contention."
In response to Reply # 1


  

          

Agreed on 1. but 2. money was the primary reason for slavery. The primary justification for slavery was racism, but the reason they chose us and not Europeans was because we were highly acclimated skilled labor for the intent for which they looked to work us. Even after Native Americans showed the settlers how to plant and work the land they didn't have the experience to be able to produce the yield that they wanted.

We only count our history from slavery for some reason but before that for centuries we were running shit in agriculture, science, astrology, and on and on all over the continent. They ran up in some areas that didn't have the military prowess of larger African areas and basically snatched us up to come do their dirty work, and it made them the #1 power on the world. People need to see the settlers as the opportunists they were. America was a corporation before it was a country.



________________________________________________

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Knowledge Meets Nature
Musica Negra
#13irteen

  

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no_i_cant_dance
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Wed Mar-25-15 07:49 AM

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4. "Nah, Black people are not some super human/sub human work animals bruh."
In response to Reply # 2


  

          

I mean wtf bro lol, Black people did not actually possess the slavery gene. White Euros could've done that work.

<<Mood...Poppy Okotcha in Look 1 at Ashish Fall 2016
________________________________________

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sa7KBq0q5bU

  

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Mr. ManC
Member since Jan 26th 2009
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Wed Mar-25-15 08:24 AM

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7. "RE: Nah, Black people are not some super human/sub human work animals br..."
In response to Reply # 4


  

          

Not what I said at all. I said they were highly skilled, particularly in agriculture, engineering, and architecture. Dummies didn't come over on the slave ships. White settlers were getting their asses handed to them trying to work this land in its heat and in this soil. There is a plantation in South Carolina famous for having been converted from a mile stretch of swamp land. It took SKILLED labor to do that. I am not talking about a physical prowess but rather an intellectual one. That is what was coveted. We were a smart and rebellious group, and one only needs to look to the manufacturing of a "slave" to see how strong, intelligent, and defiant we were.

________________________________________________

SUPA NERD LLC.
Knowledge Meets Nature
Musica Negra
#13irteen

  

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no_i_cant_dance
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Wed Mar-25-15 09:09 AM

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10. "Yeah, I don't agree that they enslaved our ancestors b/c they believed"
In response to Reply # 7


  

          

our ancestors to be their intellectual superiors in the areas of agriculture, engineering, etc. I don't think that's why Arabs enslaved Black Africans either tho. As someone who leans toward Afro-pessimism, your explanation is hella romantic.


I think one does w/e with their chattel & that is how they saw/see us. I will die on that hill lol.

<<Mood...Poppy Okotcha in Look 1 at Ashish Fall 2016
________________________________________

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sa7KBq0q5bU

  

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Mr. ManC
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Wed Mar-25-15 09:27 AM

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12. "RE: Yeah, I don't agree that they enslaved our ancestors b/c they believ..."
In response to Reply # 10


  

          

>our ancestors to be their intellectual superiors in the areas
>of agriculture, engineering, etc. I don't think that's why
>Arabs enslaved Black Africans either tho. As someone who leans
>toward Afro-pessimism, your explanation is hella romantic.
>
>
>I think one does w/e with their chattel & that is how they
>saw/see us. I will die on that hill lol.

You should go back and do some history. I know you like hearing we came from "kings and queens" before slavery, but we also came from farmers, teachers, astrologists, engineers, and everything under the sun. Europe was WELL aware of this. In regards to the colonial America and the transatlantic slave trade, the devolution of what became chattel slavery did not just start as a volatile process. The delineation of action was much more that:

- White settlers came to new land on a loan from the UK.

- White settlers needed to find a business that would fulfill their debt to the UK for their transport and settlement.

- White settlers got their asses kicked by harsh winters, and had to resort to cannibalism to survive (see: The Lost Colony)

- White settlers got hipped to tobacco from Native Americans and sent it to Europe and looked to cash crop this product.

- White settlers started recruiting whites AND blacks under the guise of indentured servitude to work the fields to churn out the cash crop.

- White settlers looked to Africans for their skill set in the farming and agricultural prowess for cash cropping tobacco AND cotton.

- 1600s - White settlers draw a line in the sand denoting that being black = indentured servitude for LIFE vs their white counterparts in decisive Maryland case.

- on this justification, the idea of chattel slavery is developed and implemented into the transatlantic slave trade.


Again, the evidence that the slave breaking kidnapping process was against a people who were not docile and not stupid is in the (subhu)manufacturing process that literally had to beat the fight and spirit out of a person to make then "enslaved". You have do that to a people who are actively fighting you tooth and nail every time, and you risk it because they have something that you need. More than just Black skin, because they easily could have gone after Irish gingers and told them this same thing. They needed our mental physical attributes as well.

What they were trying to do in the new world we had already done for thousands of years. Additionally, the ones who showed them how to do it in Europe were Blacks as well. They knew full and well what was required to build the empire they wanted, and it stands as the biggest crime in this worlds history. Racism and slavery were not happy accidents of coincidence on the basis of us being Black no more that the wars we see right now being coincidences in these areas rich with resources "hating us for our freedom" or having a "Muslim" mindset. Those things are merely justifications for the true intent. In colonialism and white world supremacy, the end always justifies the means.

________________________________________________

SUPA NERD LLC.
Knowledge Meets Nature
Musica Negra
#13irteen

  

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SoWhat
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Wed Mar-25-15 09:54 AM

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13. "well, damn."
In response to Reply # 12


  

          

fuck you.

  

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no_i_cant_dance
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Wed Mar-25-15 10:23 AM

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15. "LoL, I am aware of Arabs & Euros pilfering Black African people, their l..."
In response to Reply # 12


  

          

their natural resources.

What does ^^^ have to do w/ my belief that Black people were enslaved b/c they were Black & thus not human but chattel??

How does your condescending history lesson address what I said?? 'They got super paid tho bro' does not negate anything I said.
PURELY SPECULATION on my part, but centuries of enslaving Euros would've yielded similar profits and yet...they were the indentured servants & we were the slaves, why??

<<Mood...Poppy Okotcha in Look 1 at Ashish Fall 2016
________________________________________

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sa7KBq0q5bU

  

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Mr. ManC
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Wed Mar-25-15 10:42 AM

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17. "again, it was about more than being Black."
In response to Reply # 15


  

          

Black was not the qualifier.

If we had Black people here as slaves and they couldn't do the work required in the fields, how long would they have kept Black chattel slavery in operation?

Again, beyond being Black, our skilled labor is what was coveted. The justification for why they felt they could have access to our humanity for free was because of our Blackness. They literally had to rebrand "Blackness" because prior to the transatlantic slave trade the "Black"/"Moor" brand had a completely different connotation, one much more in line with what I am presenting in regards to what these enslaved Africans possessed beyond their Blackness.

Understand that MANY found persecution in Colonial America. There were plenty of justifications for getting over on shit (religion, gender, manifest destiny, etc) HOWEVER we specifically had to be made slaves so that we could be divorced from our stake and right in the means of production for generating this country's wealth. It wasn't because we were Black, it was because we were skilled. Black was the superficial justification, but the reason we were enslaved is because we made the machine go and the machine did not want to pay us. They needed our mental and physical attributes more than our "Black" bodies. Being Black and Black alone doesn't qualify you to undertake the task of building this country. Mental and physical skill do. Sorry if it comes off condescending, but rather I am trying to delineate my POV so that I can thoroughly present my line of argument, to whomever may be reading. No offense intended.

________________________________________________

SUPA NERD LLC.
Knowledge Meets Nature
Musica Negra
#13irteen

  

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no_i_cant_dance
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Wed Mar-25-15 11:37 AM

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19. "Yeah, our analytics are different. I don't see slavery as mostly a labor..."
In response to Reply # 17


  

          

I think it's more complex than either of us can fathom BUT I think we have to really get into how Black people carry the marker of Blackness & what that means during & after slavery.

Here's a good paper written by a smarter person that explores what I'm saying.


https://decolonization.wordpress.com/2014/06/10/labors-aphasia-toward-antiblackness-as-constitutive-to-settler-colonialism/

<<Mood...Poppy Okotcha in Look 1 at Ashish Fall 2016
________________________________________

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sa7KBq0q5bU

  

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Mr. ManC
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21. "I'll definitely give it a look, thanks."
In response to Reply # 19
Wed Mar-25-15 12:13 PM by Mr. ManC

  

          

*edit* I will add though, if you consider reparations, shouldn't both the grievance for any award be for both the damage done in all actions of "anti-blackness" as well as all actions of theft and erasure from the financial stockpiling of this country?

If slavery were only about race, then America would have BEEEEN apologized for slavery. But they won't, because to acknowledge the dissemination of anti-blackness is one thing, but it would open up a can of worms of pointing to the psychological and financial stake we would hold for restitution. If slavery was just about race then an apology would suffice, and they could pass it off as a time when people thought weird, but that's over with now. However it is the exact opposite, they were full and aware of what they were doing in stealing the labor to build this country, and it required a particular candidate. I think the difference is you are saying they didn't have white slaves because they were white, and I'm saying they didn't have white slaves because they couldn't cut it, on multiple levels. Surely they exploited multiple avenues in their gross justification of any slavery, but their esteem and white supremacy was secondary to the economic prowess they were looking to amass.

________________________________________________

SUPA NERD LLC.
Knowledge Meets Nature
Musica Negra
#13irteen

  

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no_i_cant_dance
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28. "Hmm, to address your question..."
In response to Reply # 21


  

          

Yes, it should (I agree w/ you there) but reparations in a way that pays up while we sever ties w/ the U.S. & our relationship to it.
Also, I would just say that this is but ONE necessity for our freedom & that we are still learning/trying to make sense of what we lost due to slavery beyond capital.



Somewhat dense academic language aside, I think you're going to enjoy reading that paper I linked.

It definitely gets into the meat & potatoes of the Marxist/economic greed analysis of slavery doesn't have as much teeth as week think b/c a slave =/= laborer. Additionally within the paper, there's a hyperlink to a rebuttal of Ta-nehisi Coates' "The Case for Reparations" that basically says that reparations is a liberal, non-radical, inclusion-based idea.



<<Mood...Poppy Okotcha in Look 1 at Ashish Fall 2016
________________________________________

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sa7KBq0q5bU

  

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Mr. ManC
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35. "RE: Hmm, to address your question..."
In response to Reply # 28


  

          

Cool, I've read The Case for Reparations, which definitely gets in the systemic generational derivative manifestations of slavery and its attitude. I'll give this a read tomorrow while I'm off of work. Thanks again for the link.

________________________________________________

SUPA NERD LLC.
Knowledge Meets Nature
Musica Negra
#13irteen

  

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SoWhat
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8. "The ones who survived capture, being marched to the coast"
In response to Reply # 4


  

          

(often hundreds of miles on foot, shackled), being held in dungeons (often for weeks), the Middle Passage (months below deck), and then the horror of life with massa where ever they ended up (not to mention the police and slave catchers and all the others who conspired to create hell) were super strong. I'm convinced they may have been superhuman.

fuck you.

  

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legsdiamond
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Wed Mar-25-15 11:00 AM

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18. "yup"
In response to Reply # 8


          

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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9. "How you going to tell Toni Morrison what type of friend she has? LOL. "
In response to Reply # 1


  

          

>1) Her friend is a well-intentioned asshole to be like 'fuck
>you for being depressed, go make art b/c the people need it!!'
>Like, she is allowed to be depressed & articulate that/sit w/
>that feeling for as long as it takes. I'm not here for that
>type of shit & the demand for Black women to perform labor b/c
>times are hard...FOH


Clearly TM valued what her friend said to her and maybe that's the exact lesson TM is trying to convey to readers. Get out your feelings and get to work.


What type of entitled life of luxury you living if you think you are allowed to sit around being depressed as long as it takes?

I know I can't do it. I got mouths to feed and work to do.



>


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson


"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're

  

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no_i_cant_dance
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11. "LoL, I didn't tell TM shit tho."
In response to Reply # 9


  

          

I can have my feelings/opinions about her friend, she can continue to be friends w/ this person, Black women can feel feelings & express opinions, & the world will go on.

Further, we are not discussing a poor Black woman who does not have access to resources. I will go out on a limb & say she DOES in fact lead a life of comfort compared to a lot folks, so she has that "luxury" or h/e you wanna call it.

Then again, who knows??...Maybe she is prolific/famous but is actually poor/in debt like Audrey Lorde.

<<Mood...Poppy Okotcha in Look 1 at Ashish Fall 2016
________________________________________

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sa7KBq0q5bU

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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3. "I find alot of older people find this younger generation to be mad soft"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

TM sounds like my Mom who can't abide with the self-pitying & whining you hear alot these days. Every time we wanted to go to hear and complain about anything she would hit us with some old school saying like "when the going gets tough, the tough get going".

And their is no use trying to get her to sympathize because she went through waayy more bullshit than I did.




**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson


"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're

  

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SoWhat
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6. "Thankfully this was not her point."
In response to Reply # 3


  

          

fuck you.

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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14. "No it wasn 't. She can only speak for herself. but it's crazy to me"
In response to Reply # 6


  

          

for people to try and knock her for taking that position about herself.


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson


"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're

  

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SoWhat
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5. "she right."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

fuck you.

  

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Fire1986
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Wed Mar-25-15 10:32 AM

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16. "excellent posting"
In response to Reply # 0


          

finally something meaningful.

Everything has been figured out except how to live.

  

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astralblak
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Wed Mar-25-15 12:06 PM

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20. "GOAT with that truth"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Just finished Song of Solomon. I feel like a new man.

That book is precisely about Black males not having fear and self-pity in the face of tremendous forces trying to burry amd erase them. And as always with Morrison its about learning who truly loves you.

Props to Mr. ManC in this post by the way

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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22. "It's weird because saying that message now seems to be getting peopel"
In response to Reply # 20


  

          

thrown on the coon train.


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson


"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're

  

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astralblak
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Wed Mar-25-15 12:38 PM

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24. "Difference with them and TM"
In response to Reply # 22


  

          

is that she never absolves white supremacy, nor denies the factors that try to crush people's spirits, and always connects it to narratives of resistance and survival

those other folk on that it's 2015 get over and get money

  

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SoWhat
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26. "yup!"
In response to Reply # 24


  

          

fuck you.

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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27. "Who out there is absolving white supremacy though"
In response to Reply # 24


  

          

Not talking about the ben Carsons but the Commons and the Pharrells?



**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson


"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're

  

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astralblak
Member since Apr 05th 2007
20029 posts
Wed Mar-25-15 01:44 PM

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29. "yawn"
In response to Reply # 27


  

          

troll elsewhere

  

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SoWhat
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154163 posts
Wed Mar-25-15 02:33 PM

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30. "the ones saying we need to forget about the past and move forward"
In response to Reply # 27


  

          

in love and forgiveness w/o white ppl ever being made to account for the centuries of terror and horror inflicted on non-whites via racism and prejudice and whatnot.

them.

fuck you.

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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Wed Mar-25-15 02:46 PM

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32. "I hear you but who is saying that?"
In response to Reply # 30


  

          


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson


"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're

  

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SoWhat
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Wed Mar-25-15 02:48 PM

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33. "Common, for one."
In response to Reply # 32


  

          

fuck you.

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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Wed Mar-25-15 02:56 PM

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34. "Oh wow, he did use the term "forget about the past". OK point taken. "
In response to Reply # 33


  

          


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson


"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're

  

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vee-lover
Member since Jul 30th 2007
20388 posts
Wed Mar-25-15 02:39 PM

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31. "its a typical strawmen offered up to justify this idea that instituional"
In response to Reply # 27


  

          

racism is the main reason why we can't get ahead...instead of looking at ourselves and accepting the fact that we are our worst enemies




>Not talking about the ben Carsons but the Commons and the
>Pharrells?
>
>
>
>**********
>"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then
>they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson
>
>
>"One of the most important things in life is what Judge
>Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to
>whether you're

grassrootsphilosopher

  

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vee-lover
Member since Jul 30th 2007
20388 posts
Wed Mar-25-15 12:42 PM

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25. "^^^^yep becsuse according to some on okp saying that we are the"
In response to Reply # 22


  

          

main reason why we're NOT progressing like we're capable of as a ppl and not racism means that you're somehow "coonin" instead of demanding personal and collective accountability...

But it is essentially what Morrison is saying in this article, that despite the obstacles we face, despite the lethargy and inertia we feel from living in America, we still have to move forward as a ppl...we still have to agitate..because our *chief* rival at this moment in histoy is not white supremacy or institutional racism, "it is time"



>thrown on the coon train.
>
>
>**********
>"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then
>they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson
>
>
>"One of the most important things in life is what Judge
>Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to
>whether you're

grassrootsphilosopher

  

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BigJazz
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Wed Mar-25-15 12:35 PM

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23. "not when everything is fine, but in times of dread"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

that part speaks to me. they said "This is precisely the time when artists go to work—not when everything is fine, but in times of dread. That’s our job!”

replace the word "artists" with whatever it is you do. or, just replace it with YOU.

as a man, i'm supposed to put in the most work when times are the toughest. that's go-time for me...

***
I'm tryna be better off, not better than...

  

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