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Subject: "On: The theory of fluidity as it pertains to gender/sex, and race." Previous topic | Next topic
Vex_id
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Wed Mar-18-15 12:14 PM

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"On: The theory of fluidity as it pertains to gender/sex, and race."


          

So last night's Jay Smooth MSNBC debacle on "All In" reminded me
of the awkward moment Piers Morgan had with Janet Mock when discussing
gender theory.

It was ridiculous that Nancy Giles didn't do her homework prior to appearing
on a "race" segment with Jay Smooth, but it is reasonable to conclude that
a random person meeting Jay for the first time (without knowing of his media
presence) might not think he's black, based on appearance.

Which brings me to the point of this post: Why don't we discuss racial identity
with the same fluidity analysis as we do gender/sex?

After the Piers Morgan/Janet Mock discussion, everyone saw it fit to deliver
a teachable moment that presented a progressive discourse on gender identity:

"Biological sex refers to the equipment you’re born with, which comes with plenty of factors — there are many conditions that can make people intersex. Gender, on the other hand, is a fluid spectrum from man to woman to bigender to everything else that people choose to identify with. While your parts are biological, your gender pronouns are not — they were created by people, and they are chosen by people. They might wear clothes generally associated with other genders, they might not. They might use opposite, gender-neutral, or non-gendered pronouns…and again, they might not."

Why have we not adopted the same analysis for racial/ethnic identity? While our ethnographic DNA is the makeup we are born with (similar to biology in gender identity), it could be argued that "race" (alike gender) - could be subject to a similar spectrum of fluidity analysis that varies from person to person, depending upon how they self-identify. It seems that while we are more open to a flexible construction of fluidity as it pertains to gender identity, race theory and racial discourse is still very much planted in "black" and "white" - quite literally, with no effort to introduce fluidity or to accept multiplicity identity when it comes to something like race, even though many of us are comprised of multiples "races" as categorized in a census report.

Is it appropriate to keep race polarized in black and white identity? Is gender identity so inherently different that we can't apply the same analysis to race? Why or why not?




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Topic Outline
Subject Author Message Date ID
Good post. Short answer, I think we can and will
Mar 18th 2015
1
in a word: ignorance.
Mar 18th 2015
2
its been chalked up to and dismissed as #tragicmulatto
Mar 18th 2015
3
people brought it up with the raven symone thing i thinki
Mar 18th 2015
4
Ghouliani gave it a go with Obama
Mar 18th 2015
5
fabulous point.
Mar 18th 2015
7
RE: Ghouliani gave it a go with Obama
Mar 18th 2015
10
      RE: Ghouliani gave it a go with Obama
Mar 18th 2015
30
Race and gender ain't the same
Mar 18th 2015
6
Yeah, gender's a real thing.
Mar 18th 2015
8
      bingo
Mar 18th 2015
12
      it's no more 'real' than race.
Mar 18th 2015
13
           I disagree - in part.
Mar 18th 2015
16
           sex/gender.
Mar 18th 2015
22
           Almost exactly what I was going to say. Also
Mar 18th 2015
29
                . . .
Mar 18th 2015
37
           right.
Mar 18th 2015
20
           RE: right.
Mar 18th 2015
25
                RE: right.
Mar 18th 2015
28
                     RE: right.
Mar 18th 2015
34
                          thanks - I'm familiar w/ the academic sources.
Mar 20th 2015
82
           here's where it gets tricky
Mar 18th 2015
23
                yes/no.
Mar 18th 2015
31
                     I was using gender and sex interchangeably because
Mar 18th 2015
35
                          they're not the same though.
Mar 18th 2015
38
                               you're right, they're not, but there's overlap
Mar 18th 2015
39
                                    there is.
Mar 18th 2015
40
fluidity requires equality, IMO
Mar 18th 2015
9
I dunno that the fluidity of race identity isn't accepted.
Mar 18th 2015
11
lol I'm almost positive you were one of the first ones to
Mar 18th 2015
19
      i don't care if i was.
Mar 18th 2015
24
lol I got booed in here for asking the same thing a while back
Mar 18th 2015
14
the vessel can, at times, influence the message.
Mar 18th 2015
18
Race is a social construct that doesn't do complexity all that well.
Mar 18th 2015
15
yup
Mar 18th 2015
21
RE: Race is a social construct that doesn't do complexity all that well....
Mar 18th 2015
26
      I think Gender is a social construct. Sex is not.
Mar 18th 2015
33
           but sex is not a binary. There are people who don't fit neatly into m/f
Mar 18th 2015
41
                yup. they're intersexed.
Mar 18th 2015
42
                     Exactly and its' not limited to what we used to call "hermaphrodites"
Mar 18th 2015
44
                          but by sheer numbers, these are all edge cases. like extremely rare
Mar 18th 2015
47
                               yes but their existence is proof that sex isn't binary.
Mar 18th 2015
48
                                    No one said it is binary.
Mar 18th 2015
51
                                         Great. Bc it ain't.
Mar 18th 2015
52
                                              Ok, while we are at it. Tuesday ain't Monday.
Mar 18th 2015
59
                                                   and 4 is not 5.
Mar 18th 2015
63
                                                        I know. I merely want to point out that this is an unnecessary tangent.
Mar 19th 2015
67
                                                             it *kinda" is
Mar 19th 2015
68
Nancy Giles should have admitted that she played herself.
Mar 18th 2015
17
De-racination will only work when the benefits of whiteness go away
Mar 18th 2015
27
if its real, it wouldn't wait for society to be ready
Mar 18th 2015
32
      what's the "it" that you're referring to..?
Mar 18th 2015
36
           a person's ''alternate'' racial identity
Mar 18th 2015
43
                gotcha
Mar 18th 2015
46
people don't remember that the Feds put mixed race into the census?
Mar 18th 2015
45
Hmmph
Mar 18th 2015
49
that's true too
Mar 18th 2015
50
yuuuup. always.
Mar 18th 2015
54
actually no, there are people in this very post promoting 'fluidity'
Mar 18th 2015
55
Black has always existed as a multiplicity of identity.
Mar 18th 2015
53
passing is proof of the fluidity.
Mar 18th 2015
56
but that fluidity only exists within a very narrow range of the spectrum
Mar 18th 2015
57
      RE: but that fluidity only exists within a very narrow range of the spec...
Mar 18th 2015
62
      and?
Mar 18th 2015
64
      "racial fluidity", as discussed in the OP reeks of convenient side-stepp...
Mar 18th 2015
65
           you could've just kept it at this and called it a day:
Mar 19th 2015
69
                ooooor I could share my thoughts and voice an opinion
Mar 19th 2015
70
      *holding ya cape like*
Mar 22nd 2015
85
The post can end here.
Mar 18th 2015
58
RE: The post can end here.
Mar 18th 2015
61
      That isnt the point.
Mar 19th 2015
75
      it kinda is, though.
Mar 19th 2015
79
           RE: it kinda is, though.
Mar 21st 2015
84
      Because men still disproportionately have the drive, the ambition, the
Mar 19th 2015
77
           k.
Mar 19th 2015
78
yep
Mar 18th 2015
60
Maybe because race by skin color is a false human coping concept.
Mar 18th 2015
66
Do you, personally, wish to identify as other races, Vex?
Mar 19th 2015
71
I identify ethnographically, not racially. So, no.
Mar 19th 2015
72
      one could argue that's a luxury that isn't afforded to certain minoritie...
Mar 19th 2015
73
           quite true - which is why everyone's respective identity
Mar 19th 2015
74
I agree w/ Sarah Bellum & fluidity analysis doesn't address structural ...
Mar 19th 2015
76
maybe i'm not understanding the question
Mar 19th 2015
80
RE: maybe i'm not understanding the question
Mar 20th 2015
81
There is this kind of wrapped up discussion in lit, Larsen, Baldwin, et ...
Mar 20th 2015
83

T Reynolds
Member since Apr 16th 2007
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Wed Mar-18-15 12:20 PM

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1. "Good post. Short answer, I think we can and will"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Is gender identity so inherently different that we
>can't apply the same analysis to race? Why or why not?

  

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CyrenYoung
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Wed Mar-18-15 12:24 PM

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2. "in a word: ignorance."
In response to Reply # 0
Wed Mar-18-15 12:27 PM by CyrenYoung

  

          

..most people cling to anything that helps them feel a little more comfortable about their own insecurities.



*skatin' the rings of saturn*


..and miles to go before i sleep...

  

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lfresh
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Wed Mar-18-15 12:32 PM

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3. "its been chalked up to and dismissed as #tragicmulatto"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

i.e. there is a privilege that comes with the mix and folks aren't trying to hear it

not even a little

interesting to see how gleeful folks are about the error knowing the stance has usually been the opposite

there are light skinned dude jokes on here and on twitter constantly

yeah
i'm fascinated
~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

  

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southphillyman
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Wed Mar-18-15 12:32 PM

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4. "people brought it up with the raven symone thing i thinki"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

i don't have an issue with her not identifying as black

~~~~~~

  

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rawsouthpaw
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Wed Mar-18-15 12:38 PM

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5. "Ghouliani gave it a go with Obama"
In response to Reply # 0
Wed Mar-18-15 12:41 PM by rawsouthpaw

  

          

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2015/02/20/giuliani_obama_doesn_t_love_america_white_mother_grandparents_cited.html

As Backlash Builds, Giuliani Cites Obama's White Relatives as Evidence of Non-Racism

it's probably because the US is only a generation out of sanctioned apartheid. US k-12 doesn't help.

  

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spades
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Wed Mar-18-15 12:44 PM

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7. "fabulous point."
In response to Reply # 5


  

          

>it's probably because the US is only a generation out of
>sanctioned apartheid. US k-12 doesn't help.

********************************
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Get Out The Room!
http://getouttheroom.podomatic.com
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"The world is changed by your example, not by your opinion" - Paulo Coehlo

  

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Vex_id
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Wed Mar-18-15 12:49 PM

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10. "RE: Ghouliani gave it a go with Obama"
In response to Reply # 5


          

Obviously Rudy is not a person of nuance, authority, or capacity
as it pertains to race identity. That's like saying "let's refer to
this anti-gay person's theory on gender identity" as if it's informative
and contributory to the discourse.

>it's probably because the US is only a generation out of
>sanctioned apartheid. US k-12 doesn't help.

We are still in an environment of sanctioned civil rights abuses
as it pertains to gay marriage, but that doesn't prevent us from
adopting a fluid analysis of gender/orientation identity.

-->

  

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rawsouthpaw
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Wed Mar-18-15 01:19 PM

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30. "RE: Ghouliani gave it a go with Obama"
In response to Reply # 10
Wed Mar-18-15 01:31 PM by rawsouthpaw

  

          

I didn't say he succeeded. I'll add he is someone with expertise as far as white supremacist power ideology is concerned.
And there's fluidity on gender identity among what, probably a fraction of the US masses? and only in recent years. I just did some high school instruction on Afro-Latino identity, so I'm holding down my part as many others are in this way. Ultimately demographics will ensure this goes beyond the coast, current pop culture and education, etc., and that goes for race and gender demographic diversity.

  

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Musa
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Wed Mar-18-15 12:42 PM

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6. "Race and gender ain't the same"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

One is a hormonal directly parent influenced result the other is an adverse genetic manipulated environmental effect / social construct.

<----

Soundcloud.com/aquil84

(HIP HOP)
http://aquil.bandcamp.com

  

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spades
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Wed Mar-18-15 12:45 PM

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8. "Yeah, gender's a real thing."
In response to Reply # 6


  

          

********************************
http://www.last.fm/user/Nspades

Get Out The Room!
http://getouttheroom.podomatic.com
@fakewilliamkatt
www.wickedradionetwork.com

"The world is changed by your example, not by your opinion" - Paulo Coehlo

  

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Jon
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Wed Mar-18-15 12:52 PM

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12. "bingo "
In response to Reply # 8


          

  

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SoWhat
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Wed Mar-18-15 12:57 PM

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13. "it's no more 'real' than race."
In response to Reply # 8


  

          

both are social constructs which makes them 'real' in many ways. or at least real enough in that they have real impact on ppl's behavior toward each other and their self-image.

fuck you.

  

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spades
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16. "I disagree - in part."
In response to Reply # 13


  

          

There's bend / give in gender for sure.

But chromosones are real
Gonads are real

Race, is in no way real.

I believe you're talking about the social construct element of gender, but there is a real physical / biological element - that is what I'm referring to.

********************************
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Get Out The Room!
http://getouttheroom.podomatic.com
@fakewilliamkatt
www.wickedradionetwork.com

"The world is changed by your example, not by your opinion" - Paulo Coehlo

  

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SoWhat
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22. "sex/gender."
In response to Reply # 16


  

          

>There's bend / give in gender for sure.
>
>But chromosones are real
>Gonads are real

^ that's sex. our chromosomes create the gonads that give us our sexual characteristics on which our sex classification is based. most of us then perform gender according to what's going on w/our gonads.

>Race, is in no way real.

except that most of us perform race according to what's going on w/our skin color and various body parts.

>I believe you're talking about the social construct element of
>gender, but there is a real physical / biological element -
>that is what I'm referring to.

yes, gender is a social construct. it's performance. it's psychology.

sex is biology.

fuck you.

  

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Jon
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Wed Mar-18-15 01:18 PM

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29. "Almost exactly what I was going to say. Also"
In response to Reply # 16
Wed Mar-18-15 01:20 PM by Jon

          

it seems like the directive of whether or not to conflate physical "sex" with the concept of "gender" is constantly contradicted. At one moment, male parts doesn't make you a man, but in same convo its used as a reason for a parts change.

With regard to the "feeling-like" side of gender, it seems a lot more rational that these are simply stereotypes of males/females that people buy into which causes them to think they're the opposite of their physical parts.

Like, if you aren't a female, how can you possibly claim to presume what you feel inside is womanhood. You probably just relate to stereotypes of women and can't relate to stereotypes of men. Or is it something else? What are you going off of?

Meanwhile with race, unlike a penis, you could easily make a case that the whole thing is made up to begin with, or cite some ancient blood lines and pair it with a challenge over how many drops make a race.

  

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SoWhat
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37. ". . ."
In response to Reply # 29


  

          

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_and_gender_distinction

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/232363.php

http://www.who.int/gender/whatisgender/en/

fuck you.

  

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Vex_id
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20. "right."
In response to Reply # 13


          

>both are social constructs which makes them 'real' in many
>ways. or at least real enough in that they have real impact
>on ppl's behavior toward each other and their self-image.

Chris Hayes had a response to last night's show on his twitter today
where he said: "Race isn't real. Racism, however, is."

Just as we discussed how Gender wasn't real, was something man-made
and wholly inefficient to describe Janet Mock's identity, the same can be said
about Race.

It's real, but not particularly helpful in terms of producing authentic identity
that has any real flexibility. Just as conventional notions of "gender" are inadequate to frame
Janet Mock's gender identity, so too might current racial identity constraints be for individuals who do not feel comfortably framed in a black/white racial identity categorization.

-->

  

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SoWhat
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25. "RE: right."
In response to Reply # 20


  

          

so too might current racial
>identity constraints be for individuals who do not feel
>comfortably framed in a black/white racial identity
>categorization.

sure.

academics and other thinkers have accepted the fluidity of gender identity like many of that group have accepted the fluidity of race identity. that's why i'm not sure what this post is about. or who it's about.

fuck you.

  

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Vex_id
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Wed Mar-18-15 01:13 PM

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28. "RE: right."
In response to Reply # 25


          


>academics and other thinkers have accepted the fluidity of
>gender identity like many of that group have accepted the
>fluidity of race identity. that's why i'm not sure what this
>post is about. or who it's about.

I don't think it's as accepted of a theory or as widely discussed.
It's not certainly a 'hot' topic amongst progressive discourse like gender
identity is.

Can you point me to a popular show (like All In) where people are
discussing fluidity as it pertains to race identity?




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SoWhat
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Wed Mar-18-15 01:28 PM

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34. "RE: right."
In response to Reply # 28


  

          

>I don't think it's as accepted of a theory or as widely
>discussed.
>It's not certainly a 'hot' topic amongst progressive discourse
>like gender
>identity is.

a simple Google search turned up these results on page one:

http://aida.wss.yale.edu/~nq3/NANCYS_Yale_Website/resources/papers/NixQian_20150101.pdf

http://www.mixedracestudies.org/wordpress/?p=39195

http://paa2013.princeton.edu/papers/131929

http://face2face.si.edu/my_weblog/2012/07/jean-toomer-the-fluidity-of-racial-identity.html

http://www.researchgate.net/publication/222039063_Opting_for_White_choice_fluidity_and_racial_identity_construction_in_post_civil-rights_America

>Can you point me to a popular show (like All In) where people
>are
>discussing fluidity as it pertains to race identity?

http://www.npr.org/2013/11/11/242357164/seeing-opportunity-in-a-question-where-are-you-really-from

fuck you.

  

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Vex_id
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82. "thanks - I'm familiar w/ the academic sources."
In response to Reply # 34


          

I was referring more to popular culture/mainstream media. I did see
the NPR link and thanks for sharing, but it seems to me with as prominent
as race discourse has become within our mainstream media outlets, there would
be more discussion on this topic - yet I can't seem to find one mainstream
media outlet (fox, cnn, msnbc etc..) that has facilitated a discussion on race
and fluidity in the same vein as fluidity and gender.


-->

  

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John Forte
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Wed Mar-18-15 01:06 PM

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23. "here's where it gets tricky"
In response to Reply # 13


          

both have SOME scientific basis. Race isn't clearly defined but there are genetic traits that are common to people with shared ancestry. For lack of a better term, that's race. If I need a bone marrow transplant, I won't be able to get it from a Korean.

While both race and gender are fluid, they're fluid in different ways. We all have biological parents of different genders, giving us the capacity for both ends of the spectrum and everything in-between, but a child born to two white people is going to be white. Race is only fluid when there is mixing.

  

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SoWhat
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Wed Mar-18-15 01:23 PM

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31. "yes/no."
In response to Reply # 23


  

          

>both have SOME scientific basis. Race isn't clearly defined
>but there are genetic traits that are common to people with
>shared ancestry. For lack of a better term, that's race. If I
>need a bone marrow transplant, I won't be able to get it from
>a Korean.

agreed.

>While both race and gender are fluid, they're fluid in
>different ways. We all have biological parents of different
>genders

no. we all have bio parents of differing SEX. it is entirely possible for 2 persons who identify as women to produce a baby - the old fashioned way - as long as one of them produces sperm and has a penis (aka is biologically male) and the other has a vagina and at least one ovary that produces eggs and has a uterus, et al (aka is biologically female). i know of trans couples who have reproduced this way.

http://thechive.com/2014/08/14/transgender-couple-have-some-explaining-to-do-22-photos/

fuck you.

  

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John Forte
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35. "I was using gender and sex interchangeably because "
In response to Reply # 31


          

both are fluid. They aren't the same thing, but transgender and inter-sexed people blur the line. I *think* we're on the same page though. Every human coupling than can produce a child has the potential for generating a child of any gender/sex, not so much for race.

  

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SoWhat
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38. "they're not the same though."
In response to Reply # 35


  

          

>both are fluid. They aren't the same thing, but transgender
>and inter-sexed people blur the line. I *think* we're on the
>same page though.

i'm not sure we are.

Every human coupling than can produce a
>child has the potential for generating a child of any
>gender/sex, not so much for race.

uh...okay.

fuck you.

  

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John Forte
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Wed Mar-18-15 01:31 PM

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39. "you're right, they're not, but there's overlap"
In response to Reply # 38


          

  

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SoWhat
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40. "there is."
In response to Reply # 39


  

          

fuck you.

  

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spades
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9. "fluidity requires equality, IMO"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Gender fluidity is becoming a real thing due to the fact that the genders (here in the U.S. and at this time) are becoming equal (not there yet, obviously, but anyone who says we ain't getting there is lying)

We ain't there w/race yet, not even close. There's a lot of work required before racial fluidity can be legitimized.

********************************
http://www.last.fm/user/Nspades

Get Out The Room!
http://getouttheroom.podomatic.com
@fakewilliamkatt
www.wickedradionetwork.com

"The world is changed by your example, not by your opinion" - Paulo Coehlo

  

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SoWhat
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11. "I dunno that the fluidity of race identity isn't accepted."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

With the increasing recognition of multiracial identity I think the fluid nature of race identity is already a thing. Not everyone accepts it as most don't accept the fluidity of gender and sexual orientation. So I dunno who you're talking about. Smart ppl? Liberals? Who?

fuck you.

  

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Jon
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19. "lol I'm almost positive you were one of the first ones to"
In response to Reply # 11


          

react like I was out of my mind for raising the idea of applying the idea of fluid gender identity to race

  

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SoWhat
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24. "i don't care if i was."
In response to Reply # 19


  

          

today i'm saying i see the fluidity of race as a thing that's already accepted among certain ppl. kinda like gender and sexual orientation's fluidity are accepted among certain ppl.

the majority seems to disregard the fluid nature of race, gender and sexual orientation.

fuck you.

  

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Jon
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14. "lol I got booed in here for asking the same thing a while back"
In response to Reply # 0


          

  

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spades
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18. "the vessel can, at times, influence the message."
In response to Reply # 14


  

          

********************************
http://www.last.fm/user/Nspades

Get Out The Room!
http://getouttheroom.podomatic.com
@fakewilliamkatt
www.wickedradionetwork.com

"The world is changed by your example, not by your opinion" - Paulo Coehlo

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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15. "Race is a social construct that doesn't do complexity all that well. "
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

When you pull at the strings it all falls apart. Once you decide race is fluid, then it doesn't really have alot of meaning altogether given the notion that the purpose is to allow societal to categorize people.

What's the use of a social category if you can self-select/identify the category?




**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're r

  

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Ashy Achilles
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21. "yup"
In response to Reply # 15


          

  

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Vex_id
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26. "RE: Race is a social construct that doesn't do complexity all that well...."
In response to Reply # 15


          

>When you pull at the strings it all falls apart. Once you
>decide race is fluid, then it doesn't really have alot of
>meaning altogether given the notion that the purpose is to
>allow societal to categorize people.

people say the same thing about gender. What's interesting though,
is that race is something where people can tangibly point to their
own DNA (being comprised of multiple 'races') - so in that regard
it would be amenable to a more complex/fluid analysis.

In contrast, you can't as readily point to somebody and say "they
are comprised of a gender spectrum, here's the proof/DNA" - which
by the way doesn't necessarily mean that they aren't comprised of
a gender spectrum, it's just that we can't point to DNA in order to
prove it. There are instances where people are born with sexual
equipment that transcends sex/gender, but those situations are
significantly more rare than being able to point to somebody who
is comprised of 2 or more races.


-->

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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33. "I think Gender is a social construct. Sex is not. "
In response to Reply # 26


  

          


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're r

  

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John Forte
Member since Feb 22nd 2013
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41. "but sex is not a binary. There are people who don't fit neatly into m/f"
In response to Reply # 33


          

  

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SoWhat
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42. "yup. they're intersexed."
In response to Reply # 41


  

          

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex

fuck you.

  

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John Forte
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44. "Exactly and its' not limited to what we used to call "hermaphrodites""
In response to Reply # 42


          

There are people with vaginas, no male genetalia and a y-chromosome.

  

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kayru99
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47. "but by sheer numbers, these are all edge cases. like extremely rare"
In response to Reply # 44


          

  

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SoWhat
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48. "yes but their existence is proof that sex isn't binary."
In response to Reply # 47


  

          

fuck you.

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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51. "No one said it is binary. "
In response to Reply # 48


  

          


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're r

  

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SoWhat
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52. "Great. Bc it ain't."
In response to Reply # 51


  

          

fuck you.

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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59. "Ok, while we are at it. Tuesday ain't Monday."
In response to Reply # 52


  

          


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're r

  

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SoWhat
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63. "and 4 is not 5."
In response to Reply # 59
Wed Mar-18-15 04:14 PM by SoWhat

  

          

and i never claimed anyone had said sex isn't binary. i clearly responded to JF - cosigning his assertion that sex ain't binary and offered a link to a Wiki entry about intersexed ppl to support my agreement w/his assertion. i later responded to someone's counter that intersexed ppl are a rarity by saying that their existence is proof that sex isn't binary. no where in any of that did i claim or imply that anyone had said sex ain't binary.

but we can keep doing this if you want. i have time to waste.

fuck you.

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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67. "I know. I merely want to point out that this is an unnecessary tangent. "
In response to Reply # 63


  

          


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're r

  

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John Forte
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68. "it *kinda" is"
In response to Reply # 67


          

You point to sex as a quantifiable, biological thing, but it's a lot messier than that and our understanding of sex is intertwined with our understanding of gender.

Is Caster Semenya's sex male or female? We have to defer to her gender identity to answer that question.

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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17. "Nancy Giles should have admitted that she played herself. "
In response to Reply # 0


  

          


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're r

  

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kayru99
Member since Jan 26th 2004
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Wed Mar-18-15 01:12 PM

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27. "De-racination will only work when the benefits of whiteness go away"
In response to Reply # 0


          

till then, it's sticking your head in the sand, at best.

Also, gender, as a concept, is some new new shit, and isn't as socio-politically important as race (especially when *divorced* from race).

SEX is, and there is absolutely no fluidity in that concept whatsoever in most cultures

  

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Jon
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32. "if its real, it wouldn't wait for society to be ready"
In response to Reply # 27


          

It would just be the case

  

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kayru99
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36. "what's the "it" that you're referring to..?"
In response to Reply # 32


          

  

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Jon
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43. "a person's ''alternate'' racial identity"
In response to Reply # 36


          

BTW, I basically agree with you in the sense of dissolving hard concepts of race going hand in hand with dissolving of the advantages of Whiteness, but just in terms of someone saying "I'm not x, I'm y. This is who I really am." If that were to be accepted as a real thing, then I'm assuming it would be real whether society is prepared or not.

  

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kayru99
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46. "gotcha"
In response to Reply # 43


          

  

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rawsouthpaw
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45. "people don't remember that the Feds put mixed race into the census?"
In response to Reply # 0
Wed Mar-18-15 02:04 PM by rawsouthpaw

  

          

https://www.census.gov/census2000/raceqandas.html

back in 2001

Question: Why didn't the Census Bureau allow respondents to report more than one race in previous censuses?

Answer: The decision to use the instruction "mark one or more races" was reached by the Office of Management and Budget in 1997 after noting evidence of increasing numbers of children from interracial unions and the need to measure the increased diversity in the United States. Prior to this decision, most efforts to collect data on race (including those by the Census Bureau) asked people to report one race.

Answer: The categories (made available in OMB Bulletin No. 00-02, "Guidance on Aggregation and Allocation of Data on Race for Use in Civil Rights Monitoring and Enforcement") to be used are:

American Indian and Alaska Native
Asian
Black or African American
Native Hawaiian and Other Pacific Islander
White
American Indian and Alaska Native and White
Asian and White
Black or African American and White
American Indian and Alaska Native and Black or African American
>1 percent: Fill in if applicable with multiracial combinations greater than 1% of the population
Balance of individuals reporting more than one race
Total
The use of these categories, including the identification of specific two or more race combinations greater than 1 percent, is mandatory for civil rights monitoring and enforcement agencies. For more information, see www.whitehouse.gov/omb/bulletins/b00-02.html

  

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DaHeathenOne76
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49. "Hmmph "
In response to Reply # 0


          

I find it really interesting that those who like to tout or even discuss the possibility of "racial" fludity are those who are a part of the privileged group.

I consider it an exercise in othering.
*****************************************
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=de6VnExhelQ

Presenting Collective Peace.

https://www.facebook.com/CollectivePeace

  

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T Reynolds
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50. "that's true too"
In response to Reply # 49


  

          

  

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kayru99
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54. "yuuuup. always."
In response to Reply # 49


          

  

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Vex_id
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55. "actually no, there are people in this very post promoting 'fluidity'"
In response to Reply # 49


          

analysis as it pertains to race who aren't from a "privileged group."

To assume that this is a theory/discussion that only white people engage in is beyond silly,
although it's an easy way to lazily dismiss the whole conversation.

Further, the pioneers who have largely pushed the "fluidity" discourse re: gender identity
by & large come from non-privileged (and often actively oppressed/under-represented)
groups.

-->

  

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Sarah_Bellum
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53. "Black has always existed as a multiplicity of identity."
In response to Reply # 0
Wed Mar-18-15 02:27 PM by Sarah_Bellum

  

          

Looking at who is under the umbrella of blackness, I'd say the fluidity of race is actually a central pillar of blackness. We've welcomed just about everyone who is remotely or tangentially black to be black with us, even when they don't want to lol, basically no other group does this.

Whiteness has existed as a multiplicity of identity too, there is no denying that...

But the societal rewards and punishment around race identification makes the type of fluidity you're talking about impossible. There will always be an ulterior motive, an incentive, how ever so slight. There is no societal incentive to identifying as a gender fluid person like there is wit race. Society hates them and is infatuated with them but hasn't gotten to the point where they want to be them. Society hates black folks and is infatuated with us, but it also wants to be us.




___________________________________________________________


DJTB YOMM

  

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SoWhat
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56. "passing is proof of the fluidity."
In response to Reply # 53


  

          

and it happens across all race categories.

fuck you.

  

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kayru99
Member since Jan 26th 2004
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57. "but that fluidity only exists within a very narrow range of the spectrum"
In response to Reply # 56


          

there's a skin tone that could be anything from se asian to hispanic to light skin black to "swarthy" white

Most subsaharan africans are locked into their classification, as are most mainland asians and japanese. And western euros.

I mean really, this shit is very much a mixed-race/mulatto/Mediterranean white person convo about how to get the most out their hue.

*shrug*

I'm a dark skin black person. ain't shit fluid about that in this cultural context. jay smooth could easily be a character from a countee cullen novel, lol, but he chooses to let his blackness be known.

But, put him next to Eric Gardner when the cops are called, and lets see just how fluid their reactions are, lol

  

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Vex_id
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62. "RE: but that fluidity only exists within a very narrow range of the spec..."
In response to Reply # 57


          

>there's a skin tone that could be anything from se asian to
>hispanic to light skin black to "swarthy" white
>
>Most subsaharan africans are locked into their classification,
>as are most mainland asians and japanese. And western euros.

But they aren't locked into a polarized 'black/white' identity classification.
It's an ethnographic classification, not a racial one.

-->

  

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SoWhat
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64. "and?"
In response to Reply # 57


  

          

fuck you.

  

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kayru99
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65. ""racial fluidity", as discussed in the OP reeks of convenient side-stepp..."
In response to Reply # 64


          

of issues of oppression and abuse in an effort to...i really don't know what.

Again, it's sticking your head DEEP in the sand

  

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Vex_id
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69. "you could've just kept it at this and called it a day:"
In response to Reply # 65


          

>...i really
>don't know what.


-->

  

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kayru99
Member since Jan 26th 2004
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70. "ooooor I could share my thoughts and voice an opinion"
In response to Reply # 69


          

...oh, to be racially fluid, lol

  

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bonitaapplebaum71481
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85. "*holding ya cape like*"
In response to Reply # 57


  

          

http://assets.rollingstone.com/assets/images/embedded/james-brown-cape-1373309594.gif


"i wanna hug all u idiotic bastards & then set you all on fire" -Bin

www.twitter.com/bedstuybetty
http://bedstuybetty.tumblr.com/
DROkayplayer: Giving you good puff since May '05

  

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Meadow
Member since May 05th 2012
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58. "The post can end here."
In response to Reply # 53


          

Plenty of human characteristics on a spectrum, including sex and race.

The op isnt really asking why race isnt actually fluid, but why race isnt societally fluid. Stakes too damn high.

>
>But the societal rewards and punishment around race
>identification makes the type of fluidity you're talking about
>impossible. There will always be an ulterior motive, an
>incentive, how ever so slight. There is no societal incentive
>to identifying as a gender fluid person like there is wit
>race.

Unless someone in here can argue against this^

-------------------
'Some have lives that haven't gone the way they planned, and some are trapped in situations they can't stand...'

  

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Vex_id
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61. "RE: The post can end here."
In response to Reply # 58


          


>>But the societal rewards and punishment around race
>>identification makes the type of fluidity you're talking
>about
>>impossible. There will always be an ulterior motive, an
>>incentive, how ever so slight. There is no societal
>incentive
>>to identifying as a gender fluid person like there is wit
>>race.
>
>Unless someone in here can argue against this^

not terribly hard to offer a different/balanced viewpoint. There absolutely
is societal incentive in gender identity. Everybody knows about income equality
amongst gender as women still earn a fraction of what men earn - often for
the same position. Positions of power are also still disproportionately held by men. As such, an intersex/trans person does have significant societal incentive to identify and project a gender association of "man" versus "woman."


-->

  

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Meadow
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75. "That isnt the point."
In response to Reply # 61


          


Socially speaking, there is overall less social capital in being Black
as opposed to being a woman.

Which would you have an easier time being in American society?

You dont see scores of women trying to become men for the social benefit. However, we do see Black people trying to be less Black for the social benefit.

-------------------
'Some have lives that haven't gone the way they planned, and some are trapped in situations they can't stand...'

  

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Vex_id
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79. "it kinda is, though."
In response to Reply # 75


          

The premise introduced above was that there's no societal incentive
in being gender-fluid - which is simply not true. We have metrics
and real discrimination to point to as evidence.

>Socially speaking, there is overall less social capital in
>being Black
>as opposed to being a woman.

Not terribly productive to launch discriminationWarz on this -- both
women and blacks have been and are actively discriminated against.



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Meadow
Member since May 05th 2012
1160 posts
Sat Mar-21-15 03:01 PM

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84. "RE: it kinda is, though."
In response to Reply # 79


          


>Not terribly productive to launch discriminationWarz on this
>-- both
>women and blacks have been and are actively discriminated
>against.

I'm not trying to do that. Your original question was, 'Why don't we discuss racial identity with the same fluidity analysis as we do gender/sex?'

We got bogged down in discussing how social incentive influences fluidity in race versus sex and I started making faulty arguments. Let me clarify and shares some other thoughts.

Our modern world seems to allow for more fluidity in gender/sex. Unspoken social rules about what it means to be a woman or a man are not in place anymore like they were even 20 years ago. People in the U.S. are more likely to let you be androgynous than they will allow you to be racially ambiguous. We still have a ways to go when it comes to race, because there is more social pressure to pick a side and more resistance to people who attempt to straddle the fence racially speaking.

I think that part of the reason why race is less fluid has to do with the history and associated power structure of racial categorizations. I said 'The stakes are too damn high', meaning that there are too many people who want to keep the status quo as is to allow for racial/ethnic fluidity.

Becoming another gender doesn't seem to be as much of a threat to the way things are.

Maybe the difference really boils down to gender fluid people being more vocal and effective in telling society who they are.

Racially fluid people have to deal with a lot in telling society who they are, because race is largely based on other people's perception of you and what you look like. Society seems more likely to tell and even argue with racially fluid people about who they are.

Then again maybe your point is valid and I just don't see what you see.

-------------------
'Some have lives that haven't gone the way they planned, and some are trapped in situations they can't stand...'

  

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Shaun Tha Don
Member since Nov 19th 2005
18028 posts
Thu Mar-19-15 06:21 PM

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77. "Because men still disproportionately have the drive, the ambition, the"
In response to Reply # 61


          

work ethic and the acumen required to get to said positions.

Everybody knows
>about income equality
>amongst gender as women still earn a fraction of what men earn
>- often for
>the same position. Positions of power are also still
>disproportionately held by men.


Rest In Peace, Bad News Brown

  

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Vex_id
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78. "k. "
In response to Reply # 77


          


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lfresh
Member since Jun 18th 2002
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Wed Mar-18-15 03:56 PM

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60. "yep"
In response to Reply # 53


  

          


~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

  

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Case_One
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Wed Mar-18-15 07:44 PM

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66. "Maybe because race by skin color is a false human coping concept. "
In response to Reply # 0


          

There is really only race - the human race and the only other valid clarification should be based on nationality.



.
.
.
"And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful." ~ 2 Tim 2:4

  

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Boogie Stimuli
Member since Sep 24th 2010
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Thu Mar-19-15 09:25 AM

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71. "Do you, personally, wish to identify as other races, Vex?"
In response to Reply # 0


          

~
~
~
~
~
"Until you get outta my way, I don't wanna hear what you say aye aye"

  

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Vex_id
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Thu Mar-19-15 09:27 AM

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72. "I identify ethnographically, not racially. So, no."
In response to Reply # 71


          


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John Forte
Member since Feb 22nd 2013
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Thu Mar-19-15 09:41 AM

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73. "one could argue that's a luxury that isn't afforded to certain minoritie..."
In response to Reply # 72
Thu Mar-19-15 09:41 AM by John Forte

          

particularly AfAms

  

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Vex_id
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74. "quite true - which is why everyone's respective identity"
In response to Reply # 73


          

should be respected and defended.

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no_i_cant_dance
Member since Apr 10th 2006
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Thu Mar-19-15 03:00 PM

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76. "I agree w/ Sarah Bellum & fluidity analysis doesn't address structural ..."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

oppression.

How someone identifies is not as important structurally as how someone presents in a society. Also, this question is void of how people exist at the intersections.

<<Mood...Poppy Okotcha in Look 1 at Ashish Fall 2016
________________________________________

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sa7KBq0q5bU

  

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GirlChild
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Thu Mar-19-15 08:12 PM

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80. "maybe i'm not understanding the question"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

but i figure ppl want to identify themselves culturally (religion, region, etc), not to specifically by race. i know the two aren't always mutually exclusive but i feel there can be fluidity in culture but not race.

also, i ppl are talking only about race in this country and not so much the way race is viewed around the world.

just a thought.

  

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Vex_id
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Fri Mar-20-15 01:26 PM

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81. "RE: maybe i'm not understanding the question"
In response to Reply # 80


          

>but i figure ppl want to identify themselves culturally
>(religion, region, etc), not to specifically by race. i know
>the two aren't always mutually exclusive but i feel there can
>be fluidity in culture but not race.

Why do you feel that there can be no fluidity in race. Do you also feel
that there can be no fluidity in gender? If not, what distinguishes the two
such that they require wholly different analyses?

>also, i ppl are talking only about race in this country and
>not so much the way race is viewed around the world.

Is that not also the case for gender?


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ConcreteCharlie
Member since Nov 21st 2002
71344 posts
Fri Mar-20-15 01:38 PM

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83. "There is this kind of wrapped up discussion in lit, Larsen, Baldwin, et ..."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

"Passing" was all about race and sexuality as a fluid continuum and Baldwin's work hits on that in many places, too. That is more sexuality and race being paralleled, but sexuality is not a far cry from gender IMHO.

And you will know MY JACKET IS GOLD when I lay my vengeance upon thee.

  

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