why doesn't it validate those older cultures and their practices?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/speaking-of-science/wp/2015/02/17/bacterial-dna-from-mom-may-be-inherited/



█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." � Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

to what these findings suggest

fuck you.

that's specific to this piece because there's tons of references to chi particularly as it relates to woman in pregnancy. there's also tons on chi in the gut. the notion of the gut brain. i could go on. all of this is stuff that was written about over 2000 years ago in the Yellow Emperor's Classics.

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." � Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

Not shitting on you, but if Chi is real, it's an energy you can control. It's YOURS. bacteria is a living organism that can be introduced.

>Not shitting on you, but if Chi is real, it's an energy you
>can control. It's YOURS.

specifically the it's yours part. chi is all around us. it permeates everything around us and inside of us. chi practices communicate with the chi to interact with the body, but the chi is not yours.

>bacteria is a living organism that
>can be introduced.

chi is also a living thing it just was never called an organism.

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." � Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

but yeah Eastern culture definitely focuses on the location of the soul as being in the gut

A lot of communication in Asian culture is often unspoken, trusting that what needs to be said will be said 'from the gut'

It's interesting because mitochondria actually evolved from a bacteria to be incorporated into mitochondrial DNA which is also passed down from the mother. Curious how bacterial DNA and mitochondrial DNA may be related.

But mitochondrial incorporation happened at a time when every living thing on earth was unicellular

Something like that os effectively impossible for an organism with billions of cells

because the bacteria that inhabit them are not being replicated across seem to suggest bacterial influence beyond the classic mode of thinking where DNA explains all. It is possible that different forms of bacteria our species encountered in our early transcontinental travels, out of africa and through Asia, or into europe, had some kind of influence on the various mutations that define various haplogroup types?

BIG STRETCH

But it would be interesting.

at least i'm not saying the science is wrong. in fact quite the opposite.

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." � Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

again i'm setting myself up because i'm not going to be able to provide acceptable proof of my claims. but it's not just some metaphysical concept. there are countless works written in detail about chi in the body and practices built upon the understanding of how it works in the body.

this thought was triggered first by the arrival at the importance of gut bacteria, then by the fact that bacteria like chi is more numerous in the body than blood cells.

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." � Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

No mechanism for how it works

No physical quanta for its energy

Never directly observed

including by example how to maintain a healthy gut chi during pregnancy so as not to afflict newborns. this done ultimately by the equivalent of providing pregnant mothers with probiotics.

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." � Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

Sounds more like they knew probiotics were good but lacked the technology to know exactly why

I dont see how any culture that lacked an understanding of the function of major organs could actually have a working knowledge of the microbial environment of the gut

Those two things are totally irreconcileable to me

they knew the organs and their function. they didn't have all of the technology we had that is true. but they weren't just making shit up out of thin air. if you can't acknowledge this we'll probably never find common ground on the subject.

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." � Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

fuck you.

observation of the effects.

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." � Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

fuck you.

Without the means to verify the cause of the effects, its all conjecture

i get that, not trying to deny it. just saying it shouldn't be dismissed outright.

and i'm not alone in this as indeed there are many medical institutions now studying these things.

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." � Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

An ancient healer who has documented the symptomatic progression of smallpox has made an amazing achievement

But that doesnt mean the understands the cause or pathology.

I just posted aomething very similarly to this but appreciating the concepts that ancient medicine discovered is possible without portraying them as knowing more than what they did.

i'm not trying to equate the ancient cultural practices to modern science. just saying they were on to something which further scientific study validates.

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." � Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_microscope_technology

Chinese 2000BC


█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." � Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bacteria#History_of_bacteriology

Bacteria were first observed by the Dutch microscopist Antonie van Leeuwenhoek in 1676, using a single-lens microscope of his own design.

fuck you.

i'm saying they observed the effects of what we today refer to as bacteria and developed a system of using those things in to medicinal practices, which science is now identifying with the technology available today.

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." � Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

>i'm saying they observed the effects of what we today refer
>to as bacteria
>and developed a system of using those things in
>to medicinal practices, which science is now identifying with
>the technology available today.

this says nothing except that they saw sick people and spent some time wondering why they were sick

it's cool though. i'll stop.

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." � Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

fuck you.

For example, the nervous system was mostly impossible to study before the harnessing of electricity

The inability to see microbes made it impossible to actually diagnose illnesses. In fact id go so far as to say that the disease model in traditional chinese medicine was TOTALLY made up our of thin air, fueled by false attributions.

i can't win this one. makes for good discussion though.

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." � Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

Science was never "invented"

Science existed wherever anyone designed an experiment and controlled it to make sure he was testing what he actually wanted to test

Science is a process. A process that traditional chinese medicine did not utilize. TCM has more in common with Galen and his Humors than anything we know about the human body today.

Every culture discovered ways to manipulate the human organism. Whether chemically through compounds in other organisms, or mechanically via physical manipulation.

The key to appreciating those discoveries for what they were, and not more or less, is by avoiding the temptation to overstimate knowledge. Trepanation for example, is still used in modern form to relieve elevated intracranial pressure. It was an amazing discovery given the lack of technology in the ancient places it was practiced. But outside of personal agenda, there is no reason to think that the ancient Egyptians actually understood the nervous system.

cause that's what it sounds like when you say they just made it up.

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." � Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

And not for any lack of effort on their part, but for the lack of tools.

How could ancient healers have studied the brain, really STUDIED it, without knowing anything about cells, neuroarchitecture, or electricity?

The brain isnt even listed as one of TCM's 11 essential organs. Even the organs that are listed, arent necessarily referring to the actual organs.

The idea that ancient medicine was onto ideas thay wouldnt be elucidated until much later is perfectly acceptible to me. Their attributions of phenomena in the absence of the ability to test them, is not.

>The brain isnt even listed as one of TCM's 11 essential
>organs. Even the organs that are listed, arent necessarily
>referring to the actual organs.

(I'm not going to be able to explain this well but I'll try)

TCM was able to connect the function of the kidneys to the processing of water in the body. Kidney chi was associated with various external things (medicinal herbs etc). There are damp and wet conditions which are then treated with those things to strengthen the kidney chi. The kidneys get healthy, and the person gets healthy.

This isn't a one time let's try this out, but a practice established after decades of research and findings. Did it work all the time, probably not, but based on their findings it was effective.

>The idea that ancient medicine was onto ideas thay wouldnt be
>elucidated until much later is perfectly acceptible to me.
>Their attributions of phenomena in the absence of the ability
>to test them, is not.

cool.

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." � Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

The Kidneys in TCM were also belived to do a lot of other things that were actually done by other organs

Extract qi (oxygen) from air; lungs
Produce blood; bone marrow
Regulate human reproduction; gonads
Creating brain matter; brain is organ in its own right

Crediting the ancient chinese with connecring water metabolism to the kidneys is true taken alone. A cut up body following the tubes from the urethra back to the bladder, and then the kidneys, could show them as much. But ignoring the epic fails and focusing on success is diahonest. They were wrong about SO much.

>The Kidneys in TCM were also belived to do a lot of other
>things that were actually done by other organs
>
>Extract qi (oxygen) from air; lungs
>Produce blood; bone marrow
>Regulate human reproduction; gonads
>Creating brain matter; brain is organ in its own right

These are literal interpretations but I'll concede them fundamentally being off base with what we know now.

>Crediting the ancient chinese with connecring water metabolism
>to the kidneys is true taken alone. A cut up body following
>the tubes from the urethra back to the bladder, and then the
>kidneys, could show them as much. But ignoring the epic fails
>and focusing on success is diahonest. They were wrong about
>SO much.

Again fine, but let's not pretend its just this one thing, or that science itself didn't get a lot wrong before it got things 'right'.

It's a baby with the handbasket thing.

There *is* a baby in there.


█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." � Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

Lets remember to keep science, a process, distinct from "prevailing notions of the day". Id actually be in support of using "the scientific method in place of "science" most of the time. Anyways...

Lets use celestial orbits as an example

The prevailing notion of the day at one time was that all celestial bodies followed an earth-centric orbit. The scientific method was not wrong about that. The observers were. Their tools for observation at the time led to incorrect conclusions, but the method itself, being a process, never stopped. Over time, as the observers grew more and more capable, previous conclusions were scrapped. Thats the process at its best.

In fact, i would say that incorrect conclusions are a natural byproduct of evolving methods of observation, and are 100% unavoidable. Humanity just has a tendency to fill in blanks using prevailing social/spiritual ideas.

So yes, many practitioners of the method have been wrong about many things. It will happen forever, and i wouldnt ever use that natural occurance as an excuse to just say "well thwy got that wrong lets just scrap all their ideas". Allowing ancient observers the freedom to be wrong about some things while being right, or at least on the right track, about others is not only ok, but necessary. It just gets problematic when every modern phenomena is tied to ancient ideas that were not fully fleshed out, or even able to be fleshed put in thwir own times.

my bad.

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." � Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

fuck you.

Being out in the cold actually DOES make it easier to catch a cold

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/13/health/unraveling-the-key-to-a-cold-viruss-effectiveness.html?_r=1

because ancient cultures had a understanding of science (to know) being intrinsically connected to spirituality/cosmology.

<----

Soundcloud.com/aquil84

(HIP HOP)
http://aquil.bandcamp.com

Chi is energy. I'd like to hear your rationale though.

Stronger example:

The Romans used nano technology:

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/ist/?next=/history/this-1600-year-old-goblet-shows-that-the-romans-were-nanotechnology-pioneers-787224/

~Experience is the currency of the soul.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sVt2fuV9EYY

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." � Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

its' already established that viruses can be passed from mother to child, so why not bacteria? i guess because they couldn't scientifically prove it? (this is no shade to the OP or anyone in here but logically, this always made sense that a child would inherit many of the traits and conditions the mother carries, including certain susceptibility to bacteria and the bacteria themselves).

Now I feel like if I knew that this was an undiscovered field, I would have studied this...BUT this does trigger something in my mind in regards to infant mortality and negative birth outcomes.

The genes in the bacteria expressing phenotype in the host seems to be the novel idea

Unless i read it wrong

the DNA in the child coming in part from that bacteria. This quote from the article is the most simple explanation:

"We have kept bacteria on one side of a line separating the factors that shape our development -- the environmental side of that line, not the genetic line," co-author Herbert W. Virgin IV told ScienceDaily. "But our results show bacteria stepping over the line. This suggests we may need to substantially expand our thinking about their contributions, and perhaps the contributions of other microorganisms, to genetics and heredity."

To your point we of course already knew that the mom can pass bacteria to the child. That is an environmental factor in the childs development. But what this study is saying is that the bactera are in some way able to contribute to the child's genes.

The implications COULD be huge. Environmental circumstances that the mother has can be passed on to the child as genetic traits. It's possible that this could be another factor in evolution separate from natural selection. If the environment changes and there are different bacteria present on a large level, that could change the genetic traits in generations that follow - not based on adaptation, but just whatever traits the bacteria has affecting the DNA of the following generation.

You can't say older cultures "knew" something before scientists did, without first describing fully what it is that these older cultures "knew"

In any case, in your specific example science is used to explain "why" a certain phenomenon occurs, something "older cultures" typically don't do beyond "Just because" or some variant of mystical belief or religion etc.


************************

they didn't fit it into the framework/language of a science that was born a thousand years later so it can't work, without taking the time to understand the framework/language it was written in.

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." � Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

"Not sure how it works but it just does" is not adequate for anything

nobody takes these cultures seriously.

i'm a taoist though.

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." � Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

how much more "advanced" we could be if we studied the wisdom of ancient civilizations and built upon that instead burning libraries and shit.

--

"You can't beat white people. You can only knock them out."

Ayurvedic medicine goes back a couple of thousand years and shit keeps getting stolen by western companies, patented, and presented as "new". India is trying to catalog as much as they can in order to preserve that old knowledge and keep it's origin public.

---------------------------

forcing myself to actually respond to you is like bathing in ebola virus. - Binlahab

Like there is stupid, and then there is you, and then there is dead. - VAsBestBBW

R.I.P. Disco D

OP is an idiot.

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." � Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."