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Subject: "Madvillainy vs. Piñata" Previous topic | Next topic
Chike
Charter member
32916 posts
Thu Jan-29-15 10:04 AM

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"Poll question: Madvillainy vs. Piñata"


  

          

Fancy Clown vs. Deeper?
America's Most Blunted vs. Higher?
Accordion vs. Scarface?
etc.

Poll result (39 votes)
2004 (31 votes)Vote
2014 (8 votes)Vote

  

  

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Topic Outline
Subject Author Message Date ID
DONT DO THIS
Jan 29th 2015
1
and Pinata is good but Madvillainy wins hands down
Jan 29th 2015
2
      lol, thanks for comparing anyway
Jan 29th 2015
5
           Fancy clown is the only answer
Jan 29th 2015
6
Madvillainy
Jan 29th 2015
3
Piñata is a "real nigga" record
Jan 29th 2015
4
But "squares" can like it because Madlib produced it
Jan 29th 2015
7
how many real niggers even know who gibbs is
Jan 29th 2015
9
      they type who know & actually fuck with DOOM
Jan 29th 2015
12
           so niggers in the streets from 17-30 are listening to doom and gibbs?
Jan 29th 2015
22
                I've put "I'm a real nigga" niggas onto DOOM.
Jan 29th 2015
31
i fux with Piñata, but it's not even close
Jan 29th 2015
8
not remotely close
Jan 29th 2015
10
I just don't get DOOM and I'm ok with that
Jan 29th 2015
11
i think he's easily the most overrated MC around n/m
Jan 29th 2015
14
      El-P too....nm
Jan 29th 2015
41
Given that DOOM can't rap his way out of a wet paper bag
Jan 29th 2015
13
one man's waste is another man's soap
Jan 29th 2015
17
      nice
Jan 29th 2015
20
      what a genius reply
Jan 29th 2015
21
      yep. par for the course w DOOM.
Jan 29th 2015
27
           You not going to convince heads that DOOM can't rap, for real
Jan 29th 2015
32
                I mean, *I* sincerely believe DOOM can't rap
Jan 29th 2015
33
                     no we're not. YOU just don't feel him
Jan 29th 2015
37
                          i mean, I'm cultish for DOOM; I'll own that.
Jan 29th 2015
40
                               im not sure how to convince you fam
Jan 29th 2015
42
                                    do the knowledge. DOOM is king of the underground for a reason
Jan 29th 2015
43
                                         c'mon man, you're acting like I'm new to this
Jan 29th 2015
45
                                              Ok, so read some lyrics then admit he can rap but you don't like his sty...
Jan 29th 2015
46
                                                   whats not to understand?
Jan 29th 2015
51
                                                        take your thumb out your ass.
Jan 29th 2015
52
                                                        why? you trying to get up in there?
Jan 29th 2015
53
                                                             it musta took you forever to type that with one hand.
Jan 29th 2015
54
                                                        You're not impressed by Hoe Cakes? don't understand it lol
Jan 30th 2015
59
come on yo, and Pinata is a great album
Jan 29th 2015
15
Yeah .. Not Close
Jan 29th 2015
16
RE: Yeah .. Not Close
Jan 29th 2015
18
wow i didnt know ppl romanticized madvillainy like that
Jan 29th 2015
19
I AM a DOOM fan like that and I don't have that love for Madvilliany
Jan 29th 2015
23
agreed, but damn....
Jan 29th 2015
25
      the soundscapes were waaay more interesting than the lyrics to me
Jan 29th 2015
26
cmon, fam...you coulda just made the last line your title, lol
Jan 29th 2015
24
lol. FOH. it's one of the most critically acclaimed LPs
Jan 29th 2015
36
you see the screen name bruh. MV all day
Jan 29th 2015
28
I don't even remember Gibbs songs outside of Harolds
Jan 29th 2015
29
Pinata ALLLLLLL DAY. Freddie Gibbs is 25x the MC MF Doom is.
Jan 29th 2015
30
you really prefer gangster/street rap
Jan 29th 2015
35
      not really, i still have the chafe marks from how tight i had my janspo...
Jan 29th 2015
39
      Lol ghetto tourism at its worst
Jan 30th 2015
56
something is wrong with u pple
Jan 29th 2015
34
Pinata
Jan 29th 2015
38
Madvillainy gets the nod...both are Classics though...
Jan 29th 2015
44
this isnt a big enough blowout
Jan 29th 2015
47
Im glad Gibbs is getting love
Jan 29th 2015
48
THUGGIN
Jan 29th 2015
49
GUYS! i love DOOM. but this pinata aint trash. at all.
Jan 29th 2015
50
who said it was trash, niggers in here bashing doom
Jan 30th 2015
57
This was a joke, right?
Jan 29th 2015
55
lol i never took you for an MF Doom fan...nm
Jan 30th 2015
58

teefiveten
Member since Oct 02nd 2008
33019 posts
Thu Jan-29-15 10:05 AM

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1. "DONT DO THIS"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

lol.
i like both and i don't want to compare the two and you can't make me!

*************************************
like.me
http://tinyurl.com/3z8486u

"if the children are not initiated into the village they will burn it down just to feel its warmth." - african proverb

  

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teefiveten
Member since Oct 02nd 2008
33019 posts
Thu Jan-29-15 10:06 AM

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2. "and Pinata is good but Madvillainy wins hands down"
In response to Reply # 1


  

          

it's so perfect

*************************************
like.me
http://tinyurl.com/3z8486u

"if the children are not initiated into the village they will burn it down just to feel its warmth." - african proverb

  

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Chike
Charter member
32916 posts
Thu Jan-29-15 11:03 AM

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5. "lol, thanks for comparing anyway"
In response to Reply # 2


  

          

Also, what would you say the song match-ups I mentioned? Which is your fav she-cheatin song? Fav weed anthem? Fav album opener?

  

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infin8
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Thu Jan-29-15 11:23 AM

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6. "Fancy clown is the only answer"
In response to Reply # 5


  

          

the difference (to ME) is MF DOOM is an MC's emcee vs. Gibbs is just a good rapper. That changes the approach to the beat, the approach to the subject matter....everything. Whole nutha vibe.

IG: amadu_me

"...Whateva, man..." (c) Redman

  

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John Forte
Member since Feb 22nd 2013
15361 posts
Thu Jan-29-15 10:21 AM

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3. "Madvillainy "
In response to Reply # 0


          

Piñata is mixed pretty poorly and I love Gibbs when he isn't doing his Tupac impersonation, but Piñata has a little too much Hennesseeeee/Enemieeeees for my taste.

  

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LAbeathustla
Member since Jan 24th 2004
33858 posts
Thu Jan-29-15 10:40 AM

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4. "Piñata is a "real nigga" record"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

not for squares

------------------------------------
2019 CABG Survivor

2016 OK Survivor Champion

be about it or be without it

RIP GOATs

  

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Nick Has a Problem...Seriously
Member since Dec 25th 2010
16576 posts
Thu Jan-29-15 11:36 AM

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7. "But "squares" can like it because Madlib produced it"
In response to Reply # 4


  

          

******************************************
Falcons, Braves, Bulldogs and Hawks

OutKast, Gang Starr, UGK, Mobb Deep and Eightball & MJG

  

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Ill Jux
Member since Jan 19th 2007
14705 posts
Thu Jan-29-15 11:40 AM

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9. "how many real niggers even know who gibbs is"
In response to Reply # 4


          

i can go talk to dudes that are really in the streets and ask them "you heard that freddie gibbs album" and niggers will say "who dat"

______

in the memory of NYC upt JUX�

  

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kevlar skully
Member since Mar 13th 2007
6049 posts
Thu Jan-29-15 12:51 PM

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12. "they type who know & actually fuck with DOOM"
In response to Reply # 9


  

          

A rare breed indeed

  

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Ill Jux
Member since Jan 19th 2007
14705 posts
Thu Jan-29-15 02:02 PM

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22. "so niggers in the streets from 17-30 are listening to doom and gibbs?"
In response to Reply # 12
Thu Jan-29-15 02:05 PM by Ill Jux

          

there aren't too many.

______

in the memory of NYC upt JUX�

  

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kevlar skully
Member since Mar 13th 2007
6049 posts
Thu Jan-29-15 02:39 PM

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31. "I've put "I'm a real nigga" niggas onto DOOM. "
In response to Reply # 22


  

          

Let's be honest, DOOM be rapping bout some gutter as shit when he's not making geek references.

Anyway, same dude came back and put me onto Gangster Gibbs...

  

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Ill Jux
Member since Jan 19th 2007
14705 posts
Thu Jan-29-15 11:38 AM

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8. "i fux with Piñata, but it's not even close"
In response to Reply # 0


          

______

in the memory of NYC upt JUX�

  

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woe.is.me.
Member since Aug 06th 2007
13957 posts
Thu Jan-29-15 12:17 PM

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10. "not remotely close"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

---
www.ikirejones.com
FW16: After Migration.

  

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Chanson
Member since Nov 09th 2004
15000 posts
Thu Jan-29-15 12:38 PM

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11. "I just don't get DOOM and I'm ok with that"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

mind
--------
matter

  

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fontgangsta
Member since Sep 04th 2005
5461 posts
Thu Jan-29-15 12:53 PM

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14. "i think he's easily the most overrated MC around n/m"
In response to Reply # 11


  

          

  

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guru0509
Charter member
45302 posts
Thu Jan-29-15 03:38 PM

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41. "El-P too....nm"
In response to Reply # 14


  

          

-------------------
I wanna go to where the martyrs went
the brown figures on the walls of my apart-a-ment...

  

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fontgangsta
Member since Sep 04th 2005
5461 posts
Thu Jan-29-15 12:52 PM

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13. "Given that DOOM can't rap his way out of a wet paper bag"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

this one is pretty easy

  

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kevlar skully
Member since Mar 13th 2007
6049 posts
Thu Jan-29-15 01:10 PM

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17. "one man's waste is another man's soap"
In response to Reply # 13


  

          

Sun's fanbase know the brother mans dope

  

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Dstl1
Charter member
56192 posts
Thu Jan-29-15 01:58 PM

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20. "nice"
In response to Reply # 17


          

.

...I'm from the era when A.I. was the answer, now they think ai is the answer - Marlon Craft

  

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Chike
Charter member
32916 posts
Thu Jan-29-15 02:02 PM

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21. "what a genius reply"
In response to Reply # 17


  

          

.

  

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fontgangsta
Member since Sep 04th 2005
5461 posts
Thu Jan-29-15 02:22 PM

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27. "yep. par for the course w DOOM."
In response to Reply # 17


  

          

i super simple lyric
that doesn't actually say anything
and doesn't make much sense
delivered at half speed
in a boring tone of voice
that his fans claim is GENIUS!

  

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kevlar skully
Member since Mar 13th 2007
6049 posts
Thu Jan-29-15 02:42 PM

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32. "You not going to convince heads that DOOM can't rap, for real"
In response to Reply # 27


  

          

Just admit you don't feel homie and keep it moving

  

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fontgangsta
Member since Sep 04th 2005
5461 posts
Thu Jan-29-15 02:52 PM

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33. "I mean, *I* sincerely believe DOOM can't rap"
In response to Reply # 32


  

          

but no, i don't expect to convince anyone else
His fans are on some Jonestown shit, for real

  

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astralblak
Member since Apr 05th 2007
20029 posts
Thu Jan-29-15 03:14 PM

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37. "no we're not. YOU just don't feel him"
In response to Reply # 33


  

          

it really is that simple

  

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kevlar skully
Member since Mar 13th 2007
6049 posts
Thu Jan-29-15 03:20 PM

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40. "i mean, I'm cultish for DOOM; I'll own that. "
In response to Reply # 37


  

          

That said, I honestly don't beleieve that font even believes that Dumile can't rap, despite what he says


Cause for real, he's coming off mad "Obama is a Muslim terrorist"...

Like, you can dislike Obama without making by shit up I.e. DOOM can't rap

  

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fontgangsta
Member since Sep 04th 2005
5461 posts
Thu Jan-29-15 03:44 PM

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42. "im not sure how to convince you fam"
In response to Reply # 40


  

          

>That said, I honestly don't beleieve that font even believes
>that Dumile can't rap, despite what he says

i'm honestly not trolling - i just have a wildly unpopular opinion.
I've never heard a song, a verse, a bar from this guy that made me take note.
the reason i go so hard about it tho, is because people put him on this crazy pedestal of MCing.
Like, if most folks who listened to him were just like, "ya man, Doom's pretty tight, whatever" - it wouldn't freak me out so much that *I* think he's wack
But the fact that his fan base truly thinks he's god's gift to the mic.....i don't even know how to respond to that man. Real talk.

  

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kevlar skully
Member since Mar 13th 2007
6049 posts
Thu Jan-29-15 03:55 PM

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43. "do the knowledge. DOOM is king of the underground for a reason "
In response to Reply # 42
Thu Jan-29-15 03:58 PM by kevlar skully

  

          

MF is an aquired taste. I didn't feel him at first either & don't know anybody who took too him super fast, even amongst my hip hop nerd friends.

His voice isn't very accesible but after awhile you'll find it incredibly charming




  

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fontgangsta
Member since Sep 04th 2005
5461 posts
Thu Jan-29-15 04:03 PM

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45. "c'mon man, you're acting like I'm new to this"
In response to Reply # 43
Thu Jan-29-15 04:08 PM by fontgangsta

  

          

people have been trying to put me on to Doom since my Scratch Mag days
He has never impressed me as an MC - not in the slightest
I just don't hear it

EDIT - if you want a small victory though - i will say that he's made a number of beats that i like

  

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kevlar skully
Member since Mar 13th 2007
6049 posts
Thu Jan-29-15 07:22 PM

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46. "Ok, so read some lyrics then admit he can rap but you don't like his sty..."
In response to Reply # 45


  

          


cause you're tripping


one man's waste is another man's soap doesn't make sense? You dislike DOOM so much that you can't even understand that the line is a simple play on the phrase "one man's trash is another man's treasure", which makes plenty of sense?

like damn, your anti-DOOM bias just dogs your critical thinking lol


for real though, I'm a professor of MF DOOM. I got too many ppl to at least admit he can rhymes words together good to believe a head can't at least see that, even if you not feeling it


he cleans his metal mask with gasoline
they after him
last seen him pulling chicks like a fiend pull a fast one
can't put shit past him, got niggas on his own team mad enough to blast him
retarded in real life
on the mic, rain man
stand close to his main man like a chain gang
who give a fuck about who or they fancy crew
that's no mystery like what Hardy boys do with Nancy Drew
saw her with her draws down, caught her
the extorter bring slaughter like "well, I oughta"


you gotta at least admit, DOOM is damn fine rapper, technically

  

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fontgangsta
Member since Sep 04th 2005
5461 posts
Thu Jan-29-15 10:57 PM

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51. "whats not to understand?"
In response to Reply # 46


  

          

>one man's waste is another man's soap doesn't make sense? You
>dislike DOOM so much that you can't even understand that the
>line is a simple play on the phrase "one man's trash is
>another man's treasure", which makes plenty of sense?

when i say it doesn't make sense, i don't mean i don't GET it.
It doesnt make sense like, "so? and?"
you said yourself, its a SIMPLE play on a phrase. thats a good word to describe a lot of his work.
so yes, i understand it - im just not impressed by it in the slightest.
You know what impresses me?

Respiration. Sqad Up 7. Mural. Black's Reconstruction.The Guidelines. BBS. 22 Two's. Big Dusty. Cartoons & Cereal.
I could go on....

I respect that you ride for dude.
Ive got a lot of friends, who's taste and opinions I respect immensely, who do the same.
i dont.

  

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Deadzombie
Member since Aug 21st 2008
13358 posts
Thu Jan-29-15 10:59 PM

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52. "take your thumb out your ass."
In response to Reply # 51


          

  

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fontgangsta
Member since Sep 04th 2005
5461 posts
Thu Jan-29-15 11:36 PM

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53. "why? you trying to get up in there?"
In response to Reply # 52


  

          

no thanks homie.
im flattered though.

  

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Deadzombie
Member since Aug 21st 2008
13358 posts
Thu Jan-29-15 11:39 PM

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54. "it musta took you forever to type that with one hand."
In response to Reply # 53


          

or are you using diction?

  

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kevlar skully
Member since Mar 13th 2007
6049 posts
Fri Jan-30-15 01:02 AM

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59. "You're not impressed by Hoe Cakes? don't understand it lol "
In response to Reply # 51


  

          



the line itself is a simple turn of phrase, but the general creativity of so many turnt phrases, diverse wordplay & intricate rhymes schemes that characterize DOOM's music.. how could you not be moved by any of it if you have a taste for this type of hip-hop


MF said he sold a lonely only child an imaginary enemy....




man, you gonna wake up one day like, "how didn't I get it before?"

  

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astralblak
Member since Apr 05th 2007
20029 posts
Thu Jan-29-15 12:53 PM

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15. "come on yo, and Pinata is a great album"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

.

  

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Bucks50Grand
Member since Dec 03rd 2011
143 posts
Thu Jan-29-15 12:54 PM

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16. "Yeah .. Not Close"
In response to Reply # 0
Thu Jan-29-15 12:55 PM by Bucks50Grand

          

Madvillainy is a Top 25 greatest rap album of all time. I dont think Pinata will earn that distinction.

  

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Nick Has a Problem...Seriously
Member since Dec 25th 2010
16576 posts
Thu Jan-29-15 01:14 PM

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18. "RE: Yeah .. Not Close"
In response to Reply # 16


  

          

>Madvillainy is a Top 25 greatest rap album of all time. I
>dont think Pinata will earn that distinction.

Post up your 25

******************************************
Falcons, Braves, Bulldogs and Hawks

OutKast, Gang Starr, UGK, Mobb Deep and Eightball & MJG

  

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decaturpsalm
Member since Apr 24th 2005
19268 posts
Thu Jan-29-15 01:25 PM

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19. "wow i didnt know ppl romanticized madvillainy like that"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

it really has no replay value for me
unless I wanna hear that dope ass atlantic starr sample
but im not really a big doom fan


_______________________________________
touched like midas these bitch ass niggas they study and bite us.

  

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John Forte
Member since Feb 22nd 2013
15361 posts
Thu Jan-29-15 02:07 PM

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23. "I AM a DOOM fan like that and I don't have that love for Madvilliany"
In response to Reply # 19


          

maybe I'm just not a Madlib fan, because the rhymes are as good as any Doom has spit, but I'd much rather listen to Vaudeville Villain or MM, Food

  

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Dstl1
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Thu Jan-29-15 02:11 PM

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25. "agreed, but damn...."
In response to Reply # 23


          

Accordion, All Caps, Fancy Clown and Great Day are tough joints.

...I'm from the era when A.I. was the answer, now they think ai is the answer - Marlon Craft

  

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decaturpsalm
Member since Apr 24th 2005
19268 posts
Thu Jan-29-15 02:16 PM

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26. "the soundscapes were waaay more interesting than the lyrics to me"
In response to Reply # 25


  

          

im def a huge huge huge madlib fan
but i feel like gibbs matched the sounds on pinata
perfect marriage

_______________________________________
touched like midas these bitch ass niggas they study and bite us.

  

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Dstl1
Charter member
56192 posts
Thu Jan-29-15 02:09 PM

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24. "cmon, fam...you coulda just made the last line your title, lol"
In response to Reply # 19


          

.

...I'm from the era when A.I. was the answer, now they think ai is the answer - Marlon Craft

  

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astralblak
Member since Apr 05th 2007
20029 posts
Thu Jan-29-15 03:10 PM

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36. "lol. FOH. it's one of the most critically acclaimed LPs"
In response to Reply # 19


  

          

of the last 15 years.

grow up

learn to say, outside of the general consensus, I'm not a big fan of...

you, in MV's case, are of the minority opinion

we all have albums like that. some for me are Miseducation, Endtroducing, College Dropout and Late Reg, etc

  

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Madvillain 626
Member since Apr 25th 2006
10018 posts
Thu Jan-29-15 02:24 PM

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28. "you see the screen name bruh. MV all day"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

-------------------------------
If life is stupendous one cannot also demand that it should be easy. - Robert Musil

  

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13Rose
Charter member
19379 posts
Thu Jan-29-15 02:31 PM

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29. "I don't even remember Gibbs songs outside of Harolds"
In response to Reply # 0
Thu Jan-29-15 02:36 PM by 13Rose

  

          

That said it's a dope project.

Madvillian on the other hand made me a stone cold DOOM fan. I used to diss dude. This made me go back and do the knowledge. Amazing album not without its missteps that's filled with genius writing and production. Gotta give it to the Metal Face villain.

This post was paid for by the following.

www.twitter.com/13Rose
www.debunkthemyth.org
http://dashaunworld.wordpress.com/
www.mothergreen.com

Remember MJ The Great!
PSN: ThirteenRose

  

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guru0509
Charter member
45302 posts
Thu Jan-29-15 02:31 PM

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30. "Pinata ALLLLLLL DAY. Freddie Gibbs is 25x the MC MF Doom is."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Sorry, I cant stand MF Doom. One of those ppl okp REVERES and I just cant get into him pause. boring af. the madvillainy instrumentals are bonkers though.


but yea...Pinata by light years.

-------------------
I wanna go to where the martyrs went
the brown figures on the walls of my apart-a-ment...

  

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astralblak
Member since Apr 05th 2007
20029 posts
Thu Jan-29-15 03:07 PM

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35. "you really prefer gangster/street rap "
In response to Reply # 30


  

          

.

  

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guru0509
Charter member
45302 posts
Thu Jan-29-15 03:20 PM

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39. "not really, i still have the chafe marks from how tight i had my janspo..."
In response to Reply # 35


  

          

im a huge madlib/quasimodo/lootpack fan

but mf doom never moved me like that.

-------------------
I wanna go to where the martyrs went
the brown figures on the walls of my apart-a-ment...

  

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Amritsar
Member since Jan 18th 2008
32081 posts
Fri Jan-30-15 12:05 AM

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56. "Lol ghetto tourism at its worst "
In response to Reply # 35


  

          

The kind who also probably type in aave on hip hop message boards when they live 30 miles away

  

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bonamie
Charter member
60263 posts
Thu Jan-29-15 02:53 PM

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34. "something is wrong with u pple"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

i have no idea what pinata is
im old now LOL
but we dont need to be dissing Madvilliany, DOOM, or madlib
yall tripping.

-----------------------------------
we aint the two and i aint the one- lyte

  

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okaydokay
Member since Jan 20th 2007
255 posts
Thu Jan-29-15 03:16 PM

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38. "Pinata"
In response to Reply # 34


          

Instant Classic

  

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ChampD1012
Member since Sep 27th 2003
8355 posts
Thu Jan-29-15 03:57 PM

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44. "Madvillainy gets the nod...both are Classics though..."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

  

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BrooklynWHAT
Member since Jun 15th 2007
84998 posts
Thu Jan-29-15 07:31 PM

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47. "this isnt a big enough blowout"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

<--- Big Baller World Order

  

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Brotha Sun
Member since Dec 31st 2009
6778 posts
Thu Jan-29-15 08:09 PM

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48. "Im glad Gibbs is getting love"
In response to Reply # 0


          

He doesnt do anything for me, but dude been puttin in work.

"They used to call me Baby Luke....but now? The whole damn 2 Liiiive Crew."

  

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deejboram
Member since Sep 27th 2002
25755 posts
Thu Jan-29-15 08:31 PM

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49. "THUGGIN"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vbxcPy1qJTU

i like the videos from thuggin and deeper
pure cali shit

****
pink toes: http://i.imgur.com/WN7DPL1

  

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Deadzombie
Member since Aug 21st 2008
13358 posts
Thu Jan-29-15 10:57 PM

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50. "GUYS! i love DOOM. but this pinata aint trash. at all."
In response to Reply # 0


          

thank you thread, i was unaware.

nice album.

DOOM still wins, but I'm glad this exists.

  

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Ill Jux
Member since Jan 19th 2007
14705 posts
Fri Jan-30-15 12:42 AM

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57. "who said it was trash, niggers in here bashing doom"
In response to Reply # 50


          

______

in the memory of NYC upt JUX�

  

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isaaaa
Member since May 10th 2007
30565 posts
Thu Jan-29-15 11:43 PM

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55. "This was a joke, right?"
In response to Reply # 0


          


Anti-gentrification, cheap alcohol & trying to look pretty in our twilight posting years (c) Big Reg


Get 25% off www.karmaloop.com w/ rep code JR9103 |
Nike, G-Star, Herschel, Adidas (Men's & Women's clothing)

  

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guru0509
Charter member
45302 posts
Fri Jan-30-15 01:02 AM

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58. "lol i never took you for an MF Doom fan...nm"
In response to Reply # 55


  

          

-------------------
I wanna go to where the martyrs went
the brown figures on the walls of my apart-a-ment...

  

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