I've seen from the police shooting posts people have wildly different ideas as far as what is a justified shootings. Consider these hypotheticals and share whether you think cops shooting a suspect in each hypothetical is justified or not:
1. Cop confronts a suspect. Cop sees a gun on the person and the person pushes off the cop and takes off running with the gun in hand. Cop justified in shooting the suspect?
2. Cop confronts a suspect. Suspect swings on the cop and beats the cop enough to knock him down and disorient the cops but takes off running. Suspect does not appear to be armed. Is the cop justified in shooting the suspect as he flees?
3. Cop confronts a suspect in the middle of the summer who has his hands in his pockets. Tells the suspect to remove his hands from his pocket. Cop says remove your hands from your pocket now or I will shoot. Suspect refuses to do it. It's clear the suspect understands the cops warning.
4. Cop stops a suspect on the street and says raise your hands and stand where you are. Suspect raises his hand and continues to move towards the cop. Suspect clearly understands the cops orders.
5. Cop stops a suspect and they get into a fistfight. It's clear the suspect is unarmed. Cop is clearly bigger and more physically intimidating then the suspect.
6. Same scenario as #5 but Suspect is clearly physically superior to the cop.
7. Suspect is waving a knife. No standbyers are around.
Ok, In what scenarios do people think that a shooting would be justified?
********** "Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson
1. "I don't know about justified but i know i ain't doing none of those 'sus..." In response to Reply # 0
acts bc i wouldn't be surprised if the bullets started flying my way.
-The Knicks’ coaching search still includes a lone frontrunner, Kurt Rambis, whose qualifications for the position include a strong relationship with Jackson and a willingness to take the job.
6. "Where does 'call for backup' fit in?" In response to Reply # 4
I don't think a single officer should be persuing an armed or unarmed suspect that just took them down alone, and if they are in a public space said officer definitely shouldn't be letting off shots. So it would seem the best option would be call for backup.
Toward my initial point though, in most of the things that i've been seeing the biggest issue has been how the officer carries themself when dealing with a suspect. Often it's their tone or word selection etc, that turns standard procedures into confrontations. They then get the benefit of the fact that most don't take those factors into account when assessing their behavior. If the suspect showed the slightest bit of resistance the officer is considered justified.
█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃ Big PEMFin H & z's "I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." � Miles
"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."
13. "There should be training on losing the battle winning the war" In response to Reply # 11
Like okay this suspect just handed you your ass. Guess what, you just got a good look at him, know whether he's armed and in which direction he's headed. Call it in and taking him down shouldn't be a problem.
I seriously wonder whether this is even seen as an option, or if they are training cats to start bucking to keep em from getting away.
█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃ Big PEMFin H & z's "I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." � Miles
"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."
Joe Corn Mo Member since Aug 29th 2010 15139 posts
Mon Jan-26-15 11:10 AM
7. "it doesn't make a difference for the individual cop. " In response to Reply # 4
>makes a difference? Not sure. >
It makes a difference to me, as a citizen, because odds are, it's me that can get assed out because cops are scared of dying "in the line of duty."
since it's me that's more likely to get "confronted" for no reason, and the onus is always on me to diffuse a cops racially biased fear, I wish black ppl would get "confronted" less.
I don't care about individual cops lives as much as I care about systemic police brutality.
yes, cops lives matter. but mine does too. I don't care about your fear. I was in the military.
You don't like the risk, choose another profession.
>********** >"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then >they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson > >http://blackpeopleonlocalnews.tumblr.com/
3. "without giving it too much thought, these answers come to mind:" In response to Reply # 0
> >1. Cop confronts a suspect. Cop sees a gun on the person and >the person pushes off the cop and takes off running with the >gun in hand. Cop justified in shooting the suspect?
shoot him
> >2. Cop confronts a suspect. Suspect swings on the cop and >beats the cop enough to knock him down and disorient the cops >but takes off running. Suspect does not appear to be armed. >Is the cop justified in shooting the suspect as he flees? >
don't shoot.
>3. Cop confronts a suspect in the middle of the summer who >has his hands in his pockets. Tells the suspect to remove his >hands from his pocket. Cop says remove your hands from your >pocket now or I will shoot. Suspect refuses to do it. It's >clear the suspect understands the cops warning.
kinda gray but i'm leaning towards shoot
> >4. Cop stops a suspect on the street and says raise your hands >and stand where you are. Suspect raises his hand and >continues to move towards the cop. Suspect clearly >understands the cops orders. >
don't shoot
> >5. Cop stops a suspect and they get into a fistfight. It's >clear the suspect is unarmed. Cop is clearly bigger and more >physically intimidating then the suspect.
don't shoot
> >6. Same scenario as #5 but Suspect is clearly physically >superior to the cop.
don't shoot
> >7. Suspect is waving a knife. No standbyers are around.
don't shoot...unless he advances. then shoot > > >Ok, In what scenarios do people think that a shooting would be >justified? > >********** >"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then >they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson > >http://blackpeopleonlocalnews.tumblr.com/
Joe Corn Mo Member since Aug 29th 2010 15139 posts
Mon Jan-26-15 11:01 AM
5. "RE: Police Shooting Hypotheticals. " In response to Reply # 0 Mon Jan-26-15 11:03 AM by Joe Corn Mo
>1. Cop confronts a suspect. Cop sees a gun on the person and >the person pushes off the cop and takes off running with the >gun in hand. Cop justified in shooting the suspect? >
maybe.
>2. Cop confronts a suspect. Suspect swings on the cop and >beats the cop enough to knock him down and disorient the cops >but takes off running. Suspect does not appear to be armed. >Is the cop justified in shooting the suspect as he flees? >
maybe.
>3. Cop confronts a suspect in the middle of the summer who >has his hands in his pockets. Tells the suspect to remove his >hands from his pocket. Cop says remove your hands from your >pocket now or I will shoot. Suspect refuses to do it. It's >clear the suspect understands the cops warning. >
probably not.
>4. Cop stops a suspect on the street and says raise your hands >and stand where you are. Suspect raises his hand and >continues to move towards the cop. Suspect clearly >understands the cops orders. >
Not yet. And it depends on how close the cop is to the suspect.
> >5. Cop stops a suspect and they get into a fistfight. It's >clear the suspect is unarmed. Cop is clearly bigger and more >physically intimidating then the suspect. >
Hell no.
>6. Same scenario as #5 but Suspect is clearly physically >superior to the cop. >
No.
>7. Suspect is waving a knife. No standbyers are around. > >
Depends on how far away they are from each other.
>Ok, In what scenarios do people think that a shooting would be >justified? > >********** >"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then >they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson > >http://blackpeopleonlocalnews.tumblr.com/
9. "Fair point. Is it a gray area in all of the accounts though?" In response to Reply # 8
Like in 3 or 4 I think it would make a huge difference if the person was suspected of jay walking versus a murder suspect.
But how about in Scenario #1? What if #1 there was no probably cause but it turned out that dude had a gun. Would it matter if they didn't have a right to stop that person?
********** "Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson
14. "Which goes back to why they are being stopped" In response to Reply # 12
Because grabbing hostages isn't just a common man's fight or flight tactic. Odds are they are running because they are afraid of getting shot, which is the catch 38 because they'll get shot for running.
█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃ Big PEMFin H & z's "I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." � Miles
"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."
30. "There's a black person you notice with a gun" In response to Reply # 29
which may or may not be registered. They haven't done anything yet but you want to just confirm its a registered weapon. You don't do that yourself. You call for backup and then approach the suspect and ask for the paperwork on their gun.
█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃ Big PEMFin H & z's "I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." � Miles
"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."
Joe Corn Mo Member since Aug 29th 2010 15139 posts
Mon Jan-26-15 11:31 AM
17. "have a trial about it. " In response to Reply # 12
the reason we have cops and trials is because we, as a society, theoretically, would rather have a system of due process rather than a possee of ppl with guns handing out vigilante street justice.
I don't care if it's a SUSPECTED mass murderer.
Have a trial.
Cops should investigate and arrest ppl for trial. They should not shoot them unless there is an reasonable, immediate danger to the officer or public safety.
if the suspect is being an asshole, charge them and arrest them.
don't kill them unless it reasonably looks like they are about to kill the officer or somebody else.
And given cops track record... this:
It could be for a somewhat innocent reason. It could be that >that person is about to grab a hostage. >
is not an adeauate reason to shoot a motherfucker in the face, unless there are facts that indicate that's a plausible scenerio.
> >********** >"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then >they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson > >http://blackpeopleonlocalnews.tumblr.com/
18. "Yeah that's why I was thinking the reason 4 the stop wasn't that relevan..." In response to Reply # 17 Mon Jan-26-15 11:42 AM by Buddy_Gilapagos
>Cops should investigate and arrest ppl for trial. >They should not shoot them unless there is an reasonable, >immediate danger to the officer or public safety.
Joe Corn Mo Member since Aug 29th 2010 15139 posts
Mon Jan-26-15 01:47 PM
59. "reply 7" In response to Reply # 55 Mon Jan-26-15 01:52 PM by Joe Corn Mo
and reply 32.
and maybe I am concerned about it being MY funeral because some cop was scared of being shot "in the line of duty".
as if that makes it reasonable to shoot every black person they are afraid of in the face, regardless how much of a threat they are to the public and the and the officer.
15. "RE: Police Shooting Hypotheticals. " In response to Reply # 0
Another consideration is what the person is suspected of doing. If he's suspected of something dangerous (rape, murder, torture, kidnapping, etc.), the cop may be more justified in stopping hat person.
>1. Cop confronts a suspect. Cop sees a gun on the person and >the person pushes off the cop and takes off running with the >gun in hand. Cop justified in shooting the suspect?
Related to my comment above. Since the dude has a gun, I'd say the cop can shoot considering this dude may be a danger to others.
>2. Cop confronts a suspect. Suspect swings on the cop and >beats the cop enough to knock him down and disorient the cops >but takes off running. Suspect does not appear to be armed. >Is the cop justified in shooting the suspect as he flees?
Also related to my 1st comment. Does the cop have a strong suspicion that this guy is a danger (other than getting beat up)? If he's just suspected of shoplifting, he shouldn't be able to shoot.
>3. Cop confronts a suspect in the middle of the summer who >has his hands in his pockets. Tells the suspect to remove his >hands from his pocket. Cop says remove your hands from your >pocket now or I will shoot. Suspect refuses to do it. It's >clear the suspect understands the cops warning.
This one is tricky. Lots of variables. I'm gonna say yes with some reservations.
>4. Cop stops a suspect on the street and says raise your hands >and stand where you are. Suspect raises his hand and >continues to move towards the cop. Suspect clearly >understands the cops orders.
Same as above.
>5. Cop stops a suspect and they get into a fistfight. It's >clear the suspect is unarmed. Cop is clearly bigger and more >physically intimidating then the suspect.
No.
>6. Same scenario as #5 but Suspect is clearly physically >superior to the cop.
No.
>7. Suspect is waving a knife. No standbyers are around.
If the cop is attacked by the guy with the knife, then yes. If the guy is just standing 50 feet away, randomly waving a knife in a place where no bystanders are or are likely to be, then no.
19. "there is no justification. bring them in ALIVE" In response to Reply # 0
so they can face justice.
killing is wrong. somebody trying to kill you is wrong...you trying to kill them in retaliation is wrong. you aint God. you dont get to decide when its that persons time to go. their wrong doesnt mitigate YOUR wrong. is it dangerous? YES. 100% thats why we give police officers so much respect as a culture, because they are risking their lives to enforce the law.
if the law says its just to kill for the police, the police are people...just like me. if its just for them to kill me gatdamnit its just for me to kill them. except its NOT. if i kill a cop, IF i live im going to the fucking chair. & rightfully so.
no. no killing. thats the problem w/ our culture, we are bloodthirsty megalomaniacs who want to answer everything w/ ever increasing force
20. "Almost never justified" In response to Reply # 0 Mon Jan-26-15 11:55 AM by John Forte
1. Cop confronts a suspect. Cop sees a gun on the person and the person pushes off the cop and takes off running with the gun in hand. Cop justified in shooting the suspect?
NOPE
2. Cop confronts a suspect. Suspect swings on the cop and beats the cop enough to knock him down and disorient the cops but takes off running. Suspect does not appear to be armed. Is the cop justified in shooting the suspect as he flees?
NOPE
3. Cop confronts a suspect in the middle of the summer who has his hands in his pockets. Tells the suspect to remove his hands from his pocket. Cop says remove your hands from your pocket now or I will shoot. Suspect refuses to do it. It's clear the suspect understands the cops warning.
Not justified
4. Cop stops a suspect on the street and says raise your hands and stand where you are. Suspect raises his hand and continues to move towards the cop. Suspect clearly understands the cops orders.
Not justified.
5. Cop stops a suspect and they get into a fistfight. It's clear the suspect is unarmed. Cop is clearly bigger and more physically intimidating then the suspect.
Not justified
6. Same scenario as #5 but Suspect is clearly physically superior to the cop.
Not justified
7. Suspect is waving a knife. No standbyers are around.
Not justified
Show me a cop who has NONE of the following:
Pepper Spray/Mace Baton Taser
Unless the suspect has a firearm (or what appears to be a firearm) or is attacking with a blade, explosive or incendiary device, there is no reason to use lethal force.
26. "You should have asked people if THEY were the cop what would THEY do..." In response to Reply # 0
a lot of people think the police are the superhuman telepathic beings instead of regular people making split second decisions in potential life or death situations.
28. "i like to think i'd very carefully approach the public" In response to Reply # 26
and attempt to effect an arrest using as little violence as possible because just like i wanna go home after my shift, this person im talking to does too
i'd know my life isnt any more or less important then that persons
41. "in the 12-33% range. far greater than any bullshit you'll come up with." In response to Reply # 0
I'd love for you to show me statistics showing more than 1% of the population is as you describe them as justification for treating everyone else like they *could* be.
█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃ Big PEMFin H & z's "I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." � Miles
"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."
46. "RE: in the 12-33% range. far greater than any bullshit you'll come up wi..." In response to Reply # 41
>I'd love for you to show me statistics showing more than 1% >of the population is as you describe them as justification for >treating everyone else like they *could* be.
53. "hey dumb fuck, you asked a faulty question to begin with. The percentage..." In response to Reply # 48
of the entire poplation that are murderous, psychotic criminals is small.
But for the most part police officers aren't dealing with the entire population, they're mostly dealing with with the criminal element and that percentage is a lot higher.
Determining who is who is not always easy in a split second. Brinsley didn't look like a cold-blooded killer at all. He looked like a regular clean cut nerd ass kid.
57. "Show me the statistic showing this, and stop talking out your ass" In response to Reply # 53
>But for the most part police officers aren't dealing with the >entire population, they're mostly dealing with with the >criminal element and that percentage is a lot higher.
again above 1%
But beyond that the first part of that is categorically wrong. Police are here to serve and protect the public. The public are who they are supposed to deal with. Every officer isn't spending every shift surrounded by criminals. They are spending it in communities of citizens in which there may be criminals.
>Determining who is who is not always easy in a split second.
So stop worrying about a fucking split second and call for fucking back up.
>Brinsley didn't look like a cold-blooded killer at all. He >looked like a regular clean cut nerd ass kid.
If only someone had shot him the day before just for being black we wouldn't be having this discussion.
█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃ Big PEMFin H & z's "I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." � Miles
"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."
60. "Again show me the fucking stats idiot" In response to Reply # 58 Mon Jan-26-15 01:53 PM by imcvspl
Then you can talk to me about how relevant a single mentally disturbed person who actually targeted cops who didn't see him coming let alone know he had a gun to have reacted to shit, has to do with your nonsensical thinking that all black men don't give a fuck about their life or anyone elses.
All this faux shock and horror shit... miss me with that and hit me with some fucking stats or shut the fuck up with your bullshit.
█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃ Big PEMFin H & z's "I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." � Miles
"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."
I still suspect ppl respect cops much more than veterans.
their "boots on the ground" soldiers get more funding than individual army grunts.
i ain't never heard of cops not getting body armor when they needed it. and to my knowledge, former cops don't have as many homeless, unemployed, mentally ill, or suicidal ppl as veterans.
which is why I said ppl care about cops lives more than vets.
what is the same, though, is the bullshit "support the troops/ support the boys in blue" conservative political rhetoric.
which is basically a trick to make ppl not think critically about stuff we all need to think critically about.
now tell me why my points don't matter because i'm just a _____ , which means I can't possibly understand _____ .
Joe Corn Mo Member since Aug 29th 2010 15139 posts
Mon Jan-26-15 12:20 PM
31. "are police officers professionals or not?" In response to Reply # 26
I don't expect my doctors to be perfect, but I expect them to do what a reasonable doctor would do under the circumstances.
nobody is in here talking that "shoot to injure" nonsense.
it's not unreasonable to expect cops to make a reasonable assesment to decide if they should off a motherfucker.
"I was scared (of niggers, generally)" is not enough.
if you are that scared and can't handle it, chose another profession.
>a lot of people think the police are the superhuman >telepathic beings instead of regular people making split >second decisions in potential life or death situations. > >
52. "is there a study showing people with guns running toward crowds" In response to Reply # 51
wontonly start letting off shots at the people in the crowd? aren't officers supposed to avoid firing into a crowd?
seems like there's a lot to do before opening fire unless you're a marksman that knows they can take down and disarm the perp with a few precise shots. otherwise... they need backup.
█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃ Big PEMFin H & z's "I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." � Miles
"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."
37. "'Totality of the circumstances'" In response to Reply # 0
>1. Cop confronts a suspect. Cop sees a gun on the person and >the person pushes off the cop and takes off running with the >gun in hand. Cop justified in shooting the suspect?
Need more info. Did the cop have probable cause to believe the suspect had committed a violence offense? Are there bystanders? Is this happening on a crowded street? Open field? Are there other cops in the area? Does the cop have a history with this suspect? Is this a 'high crime area'? Et al.
>2. Cop confronts a suspect. Suspect swings on the cop and >beats the cop enough to knock him down and disorient the cops >but takes off running. Suspect does not appear to be armed. >Is the cop justified in shooting the suspect as he flees?
No. Suspect is unarmed and without knowing anything about the nature of the offense the cop suspected or the area where this happened I don't see a need for shooting.
>3. Cop confronts a suspect in the middle of the summer who >has his hands in his pockets. Tells the suspect to remove his >hands from his pocket. Cop says remove your hands from your >pocket now or I will shoot. Suspect refuses to do it. It's >clear the suspect understands the cops warning.
Not based on that. No probable cause to believe the subject has a weapon.
>4. Cop stops a suspect on the street and says raise your hands >and stand where you are. Suspect raises his hand and >continues to move towards the cop. Suspect clearly >understands the cops orders. > > >5. Cop stops a suspect and they get into a fistfight. It's >clear the suspect is unarmed. Cop is clearly bigger and more >physically intimidating then the suspect. > >6. Same scenario as #5 but Suspect is clearly physically >superior to the cop. > >7. Suspect is waving a knife. No standbyers are around. > > >Ok, In what scenarios do people think that a shooting would be >justified? > >********** >"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then >they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson > >http://blackpeopleonlocalnews.tumblr.com/
56. "what did the officer know? How did s/he learn it? Where is this happenin..." In response to Reply # 37
Those questions will impact my answers. Bc the officer's act is justified if a reasonable officer in the cop's place armed with the same info would commit the same act.
80. "One thing has become clear to me, you have to have special" In response to Reply # 0
prosecutors.
I am fine with the police having a slightly different standard because of their line of work but there is no way that a prosecutor who depends on police officers to perform their job does not have an inherent conflict with prosecuting police officers.
********** "Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson
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