16. "i'm in my mid 30s and it didn't move me in the slightest" In response to Reply # 12
i am the product of western culture and completely desensitized. for as long as i remember people have been killing and exploiting each other, and entertaining each other with death and destruction. violence has always been easier than love. not sure why this particular event is any different.
this society is clearly about the survival of the fittest. it breeds predators. any high ideals you may have for the world will only alienate and frustrate you. the only thing that makes any sense is knowledge and development of self, or creating art which can express how you feel.
i highly recommend Zen Buddhism if you want to be at peace. it's the only thing i find that works as it teaches a healthy level of detachment and involvement.
If you find yourself so discombobulated by external forces, it may be time to consider why you are so deeply and easily unsettled, and why it is so easy for you to pass judgement.
Good luck to you in finding peace. I'm a free spirit, I'll post wherever I feel inclined to.
9. "maybe we're all suckers" In response to Reply # 0
sometimes i wonder why these seemingly polarizing events seem to surface on a weekly basis.
there is always an Us vs Them mentality in any scenario in the media, and all it ever seems to accomplish is conflict.
if you look at the Charlie post, there are two sides people are vehemently defending.
the funny thing is, nothing practical will ever surface from that conversation. it's meaningless. there will never be any solution that we can come up with.
however, we all do a great job of widening the gap between each other. shrug.
Atillah Moor Member since Sep 05th 2013 13825 posts
Thu Jan-08-15 10:33 AM
13. "This is the world that supremacy built " In response to Reply # 9
And we all support it with our time and our money. The real truth is we are all slaves of different classes supporting a faceless power structure. There is no doubt in my mind that the 1% are feasting on all of this.
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Everything looks like Oprah kissing Harvey Weinstein these days
15. "RE: This is the world that supremacy built " In response to Reply # 13
>And we all support it with our time and our money. The real >truth is we are all slaves of different classes supporting a >faceless power structure. There is no doubt in my mind that >the 1% are feasting on all of this.
VERY TRUE. The fighting between the 99% is EXACTLY what they want.
~~~~ When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries. ~~~~ You cannot hate people for their own good.
23. "But it's just about the cartoonists and their murderers, though, right?" In response to Reply # 0 Thu Jan-08-15 11:25 AM by Hitokiri
It's not about the context in which 3 members of an oppressed group can commit reprehensible acts, and because of an already existing attitude about the huge group they are only very vaguely apart of (99.6% of muslims are not terrorists) many many innocents will suffer.
Because when Tim McVay did what he did... no one went out and... Nevermind. Some of ya'll don't wanna see the forest.
My heart goes out to all the lives lost so far and those that yet to be lost.
--
"You can't beat white people. You can only knock them out."
25. "Isn't that what you are doing here tho?" In response to Reply # 23 Thu Jan-08-15 11:28 AM by BigReg
>It's not about the context in which 3 members of an oppressed >group can commit reprehensible acts,
In the main post too, linking them to the larger scale of muslim opppression? Thus the, 'Well, they shouldn't have put the cartoons out...they get as much racist flack as it is...this is the logical conclusion' discussion happening in the other post?
The second they went full retard im pretty sure they got voted off that Island by the other members of the Muslim nation, lol.
Atillah Moor Member since Sep 05th 2013 13825 posts
Thu Jan-08-15 01:10 PM
30. "Why do the wicked live, reach old age, and grow mighty in power?" In response to Reply # 28 Thu Jan-08-15 01:12 PM by Atillah Moor
Evil knows no restraint and those who practice it as a way of life do any and everything to maintain their way of life. Be it lying, cheating, stealing, or murder. You can amass much if you show no ethical or moral restraint. It is the easy way to live but has the hardest price at the end.
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Everything looks like Oprah kissing Harvey Weinstein these days
33. "I think any and every injustice will be answered for." In response to Reply # 30
I believe in reincarnation and karma, and I think every single individual who has seemingly risen to power, and attained wealth by stepping on other people, will experience the exact opposite of that exchange.
32. "Self-fulfilling prophecy" In response to Reply # 28
optimism vs pessimism
get you a half full glass sometimes ~~~~ When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries. ~~~~ You cannot hate people for their own good.
40. "RE: The appropriate free speech response would be rocking T-shirts " In response to Reply # 38 Fri Jan-09-15 09:19 AM by imperial
>depicting the Charlie Cartoons.
I support free speech but not bigotry and racism why would I rock a CH T shirt If my goal is to promote tolerance and respect for the religion and beliefs of others?
_____________________________________________________ miserable niggas yo cant let nobody have nothing "god save the queen pip pip cheerio tea time princess di" ass niggas (c)white desus
56. "Nah, Its not easy. Even the monkey politican photo floating around" In response to Reply # 47
>Huffpo put up a few images but it's like showing a KKK member >without his hood hugging his kid and asking if you see a >racist in the photo...
Was apparently an attack on Le Pen using racist imagery they would use.
They might not be always on point with it (can presumably upper middle class whitefolks always be?), but I have a sneaking suspicion there's a similarity to when people take and run with Onion articles.
Atillah Moor Member since Sep 05th 2013 13825 posts
Fri Jan-09-15 10:14 AM
48. "That particular one seems to be a Mohammed image" In response to Reply # 42
so there's that. It's not racist. It's a trigger for radicals though. It would be like putting out an image of Chairman Mao feasting on countless starving Chinese bodies or shitting out little red books. Or in somewhat western metaphors Lenin giving Hittler a BJ. Best believe that one or both of those two groups would have a counter move for someone somewhere. That doesn't mean a violent response is right, but it does mean it could likely trigger a violent response.
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Everything looks like Oprah kissing Harvey Weinstein these days
58. "RE: Right they are offensive undoubtedly. " In response to Reply # 52
Bigotry is a state of mind where a person strongly and unfairly dislikes other people, ideas, etc. Some examples include personal beliefs, race, religion, national origin, gender, disability, sexual orientation, socioeconomic status, or other group characteristics.
complete intolerance of any creed, belief, or opinion that differs from one's own.
So by this definition continuously depicting the prophet especially in a negative and unsavoury way shows intolerance and a lack of respect for that religion and belief.
But you rather protect your freedom of speech to no ends, even if it means insulting and shitting on other people along the way. because fuck it its your right to be an asshole. _____________________________________________________ miserable niggas yo cant let nobody have nothing "god save the queen pip pip cheerio tea time princess di" ass niggas (c)white desus
Atillah Moor Member since Sep 05th 2013 13825 posts
Fri Jan-09-15 10:38 AM
53. "ain't nobody got time for that" In response to Reply # 50 Fri Jan-09-15 10:41 AM by Atillah Moor
Most folks want the path of least resistance. It will take a very special person to "talk down" folks who can easily use their religion to support their violence.
Christians and Jews can't easily do such (act violently) IMO and I mean according to the writings in their texts. Christians in particular because Jesus is similar to Buddha in the sense that both espouse peace. So if a Christian instigates violence he or she would have a very hard time justifying it (I'm looking at you Emperor Constantine) and if a Jew acts in violence it's usually tied to self defense or the land of Israel (which is a scared area of belief to both them and Muslims) this has been true in times past and present.
It seems In my opinion easier for radical Muslims to use violence because there appears to be more gray in how "appropriate force" is justified in it's texts.
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Everything looks like Oprah kissing Harvey Weinstein these days
51. "Let me put it in Blacker Terms." In response to Reply # 46 Fri Jan-09-15 10:44 AM by Buddy_Gilapagos
Rap music is filled with the liberal use of the word nigga, regularly call our women bitches, and generally on a whole we have accepted it.
We don't boycott or murder anyone over it. In fact, many of us actively support it it financially, ALTHOUGH it is very offensive to some.
Why is that offensive behavior tolerated, yet expressing certain things (like depicting Muhammad) that is offensive to certain muslims is crossing domr bigotry racist line that makes people buy into the notion that these murders are understandable?
I think the social value and the artistic merit of the CH Cartoons is forcing certain muslims to confront the fact that they have to get over it.
YOu can't live in a multicultural society and force people to ascribe to your religious dictates (i.e., don't depict the prophet).
You don't think gay people should be allowed to get married (or live), fine that's your belief but you can't kill gay people or stop them from getting married.
********** "Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson
55. "there are white ppl who choose not to say 'nigger'." In response to Reply # 51
They have the right to say it - it's not criminal. And they have the human right to express themselves. They choose not to use the word. Why? Out of respect and consideration for us blacks who have asked them not to. (Leave aside the blacks who still use it - that's a side issue to the one I'm presenting - partly bc the power differential isn't present there and my point is about whitey exercising free expression while being considerate of minorities whitey oppresses)
Charlie should've done the same, IMO. Or at least if they were gonna depict the Prophet they could've done it more respectfully. But ain't nobody talking about that bc those fool ass terrorists shot up the joint and fucked up the whole conversation. Fuckers. Plus, you know, ppl hate Arabs and Muslims.
60. "there is no equal opportunity in France" In response to Reply # 59
Rap analogy is bad because hip hop was created as a voice of the minority and oppressed and stating their views and opinions against the powers that be. Voice of the youth and struggle and glimpse of the unseen product of white supremacy.
Charlie Hebdo didn't come from the view of the oppressed but more the oppressors and thus not a equal platform.
Now lets say that you took the voice of the oppressed and disenfranchised youth and political outcry withing hiphop and then replaced it with the oppressor and corporate machine controlling the imagery and output. Then, the images can promote their agenda without any connection to the platform which created the need for hip hop and it becomes some other shit for folks to just laugh at while ignoring the struggles that birthed the outcry.
I'm on a tangent but it's not the same thing at all and not as simple as they are just mean to everyone equally.
63. "i don't believe that a belief system automatically garners taboo status." In response to Reply # 59
i believe that considering the position of Muslims in Europe that the right thing for Charlie to do would've been to ease up on going at Islam in the magazine so as to avoid compounding the oppression on Muslims in Europe. kinda like the way most media here in the USA avoids using 'nigger' as a pejorative or even in jest. they use other slurs but choose not to use that one.
the 'why?' is the heart of my point. why does media here censor itself when it comes to 'nigger'? why do well-meaning white ppl censor themselves when it comes to 'nigger'? and other slurs too like 'faggot' and 'kike' and 'cunt'...
why?
^ IMO European Muslims deserve the same consideration when it comes to depictions of the Prophet and possibly w/other issues too. but i'm talking specifically about the cartoon thing.
Ted Gee Seal Member since Apr 18th 2007 10091 posts
Fri Jan-09-15 03:15 PM
69. "Race and religion aren't the same here IMO" In response to Reply # 63
>i believe that considering the position of Muslims in Europe >that the right thing for Charlie to do would've been to ease >up on going at Islam in the magazine so as to avoid >compounding the oppression on Muslims in Europe. kinda like >the way most media here in the USA avoids using 'nigger' as a >pejorative or even in jest. they use other slurs but choose >not to use that one. > >the 'why?' is the heart of my point. why does media here >censor itself when it comes to 'nigger'? why do well-meaning >white ppl censor themselves when it comes to 'nigger'? and >other slurs too like 'faggot' and 'kike' and 'cunt'... > >why? > >^ IMO European Muslims deserve the same consideration when it >comes to depictions of the Prophet and possibly w/other issues >too. but i'm talking specifically about the cartoon thing.
Self censorship on race/gender/sexuality slurs have much to do with the history of those words and their oppressive effects.
Bowing to a religious rule of someone else's faith in your own country would be like giving up beef in case some militant Hindus came gunning for you. Christianity is diminishing in this country and I'd hate for this angle to be used against, say, white gay comedians lampooning one of our local Christian leaders. Because the church I'm thinking of is predominantly Maori/Pacific Islander (read: minorities) and has shown a taste for physical intimidation of gays in the past. Let them think depictions of their leader are likewise sacred and I'm really uncomfortable with the precedent you're proposing. I imagine Salman Rushdie might feel some kind of way as well.
87. "I think there is wrong with muslims and left of center people who think" In response to Reply # 71
these attacks were incited by the cartoons and the attacks were therefore understandable.
Alot of people, muslim and non-muslim, fall into this group.
>Muslim teens weren't the one shooting up anything. Some >extremist/terrorists were. > >So this sounds a lot like you're saying that all muslims are >extremists and/or terrorists. > >
********** "Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson
Ted Gee Seal Member since Apr 18th 2007 10091 posts
Fri Jan-09-15 03:40 PM
73. "Both his counter examples are race based" In response to Reply # 68
In NZ the most visible proponent of ISIS is Maori. It's increasingly common to hear stories of whites in Australia taking up arms with Muslims overseas.
People from a wide range of races are being radicalised under the banner of Islam. It's not the same as Europe. The radical elements had to pack up and come a long way to get to our shores. Lampooning elements of the faith might not be wise for personal safety but aren't automatically reprehensible either. In fact, they might sometimes be entirely appropriate.
Ted Gee Seal Member since Apr 18th 2007 10091 posts
Sat Jan-10-15 05:58 AM
94. "in that depiction yes. Guy holding the money with that nose?" In response to Reply # 93
>Umm... > >Sorry to burst your bubble, but Muslim are treated as a race. >For a lot of people Muslim and Arab are the same thing.
I gave examples to show my reasoning, and your response doesn't deal with them at all. There's no bubble burst here. For a lot of people Muslims and Hindus are the same. That's an ignorance issue, not a race issue. There are plenty of non Arab Muslims in the world. Going after the faith is not inherently racist. Going after the Jewish money lending stereotype as depicted in the cartoon is inherently racist.
90. "I don't disagree with anything he said. I also don't think addressed wh..." In response to Reply # 68
alot of us are seeing as the issue.
I think my main point of disagreement at this point is the idea that the reaction was provoked.
It's funny because it reminds me alot of those ghetto prank videos. The white boys that go into the hood and step on brothers shoes looking to see how the black people react?
I think at first I felt strongly "fuck those guys, they deserved whatever happens to them".
I think though with time I started to see the real problem is that the young brothers were ready to knock a dude out for stepping on their shoes.
********** "Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson
72. "RE: Multiple French mosques attacked since magazine murders *swipe*" In response to Reply # 0
anybody trying to create similarities between drawing a picture of islam's prophet and somebody drawing a racist cartoon or using the word "nigger" is flat out wrong and copping pleas at this point
i appreciate that you want to rationalise what the killers did, though you're all falling short and should put those goalposts back where they belong
If you're innocent, be cool. Only the guilty's catchin' offence.
82. "RE: tommy i'm sorry you're not smart enough to get what i'm saying." In response to Reply # 78
lol, doesn't look that way to me, player
in one thread you're going, "oh please, the threat of violence should never stop freedom of expression!" and in another you're going, "they should never have expressed themselves, because people might get angry!" - even going as far as outright saying "fuck freedom of expression"
it's cool though, you don't have to apologise. you're one of my favourite posters on here and i usually like it when you get pouty and dismissive, you just got a bit too deep in your feelings this time
If you're innocent, be cool. Only the guilty's catchin' offence.
>anybody trying to create similarities between drawing a >picture of islam's prophet and somebody drawing a racist >cartoon or using the word "nigger" is flat out wrong and >copping pleas at this point >
It's a better point than you give it credit for. Cartoons can become hate speech, which can make it very difficult to walk in the community. A person looking at me doesn't automatically know I'm Christian. Muslims aren't always so lucky, and minorities from other faiths sometimes get caught in the crossfire.
>i appreciate that you want to rationalise what the killers >did, though you're all falling short and should put those >goalposts back where they belong
SoWhat and others have repeatedly said the killers were completely wrong. What they're talking about is separate to that.
91. "RE: That's not fair." In response to Reply # 84
when did i say that cartoons can't be hate speech? lol, i know perfectly well that they can. there's some despicable racist, homophobic and anti-semitic cartoons out there. some of the mainstream newspapers in muslim countries are replete with them.
thing is, the stuff that charlie hebdo was producing wasn't racist, bigotted or hate-filled. vulgar maybe. plus, it's not like their sole purpose is to single out muslims in a hope to dehumanise them or make their lives miserable. it's a satirical magazine where everything is fair game.
and i know that sowhat would never condone murder like this, but the stuff he was putting made it seem very much like he was trying to rationalise it
If you're innocent, be cool. Only the guilty's catchin' offence.
88. "Naw I disagree. It's the same. They are both violations of another pers..." In response to Reply # 72
taboos.
I don't see how you can think they are different other than arguing if it's a violation of what I hold sacred it's wrong but if it's a violation of what you hold sacred than get over it.
>anybody trying to create similarities between drawing a >picture of islam's prophet and somebody drawing a racist >cartoon or using the word "nigger" is flat out wrong and >copping pleas at this point > >i appreciate that you want to rationalise what the killers >did, though you're all falling short and should put those >goalposts back where they belong
********** "Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson
100. "Mosques were being attacked before the murders as well." In response to Reply # 0
This is just the predictable surge in incidents following any widely publicized Islamic terror attack.
This surge and the general under-reporting of attacks on mosques and Muslims is part of why I am definitely not Charlie and won't be rocking any cartoons on my clothing or social media profiles. Reproducing the Charlie Hebdo images* would just feel like kicking Muslims (most of whom have zilch to do with terrorism) while they're down. There'll be plenty of time to criticize their faith once they're finally allowed to be full fledged members of this great enlightened Western society of ours.
*) needless to say I'm all for the legal right to publish those images and don't condone violence as a response to satire or any other form of non-violent expression, like at all.
___________________ "So this is what everybody's always talking about! Diablo! If only I'd known. The beauty! The beauty!"
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