"Serious question. Have we reached saturation on anti racism?"
I just watched the help. It was incredible. I was moved. And I saw the credits. And it was brought to me by nate berkus and john norris. A home design talk show host and mtv news correspondent. Pretty removed from the struggle. And that's not a bad thing. It means that at the furthest reaches of the white American experience, every single person is aware of the horrible history we suffered and the problems we still have. So at this moment, I think it's a question of willful ignorance to a man. Flat earth. Religion. Immutable personal views are what essentially remain and we can't protest further past here?
1. "Nah, racism "evolves"." In response to Reply # 0
The modern racism would probably acknowledge openly that the racism from the segregation error was bad and most won't use the word "nigger" openly, however, racism has mutated into a more sophisticated form in which Rudy Guiliani can go on TV and say the fucked up stuff he does and few would call him out as racist.
********** "Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson
"You start out in 1954 by saying, "Nigger, nigger, nigger." By 1968 you can't say "nigger" — that hurts you. Backfires. So you say stuff like forced busing, states' rights and all that stuff. You're getting so abstract now you're talking about cutting taxes, and all these things you're talking about are totally economic things and a byproduct of them is blacks get hurt worse than whites. And subconsciously maybe that is part of it. I'm not saying that. But I'm saying that if it is getting that abstract, and that coded, that we are doing away with the racial problem one way or the other. You follow me — because obviously sitting around saying, "We want to cut this," is much more abstract than even the busing thing, and a hell of a lot more abstract than "Nigger, nigger."
2. "I'm not sure I understand your question" In response to Reply # 0
I do think we have reached a point where we have lost sight of seeking understanding and instead are seeking validation, and that goes for people on all sides of the aisle. I don't think that is limited to race/racism, I think there is a sort of approval-seeking culture that has been brewing and has really exploded under the "like button." I also think there is too much of an emphasis on identifying overt racism and punishing it, as opposed to establishing a broader, deeper understanding without necessarily castigating anyone with the information we obtain.
I do not think that "the furthest reaches of the white American experience, every single person is aware of the horrible history we suffered and the problems we still have." I am not sure where you would draw that conclusion. I think what you're seeing here is that there is some real solidarity between people who are marginalized, whether it's for race or other reasons. There's empathy, yes, but there's also sympathy, even if experience and identity are not identical.
And you will know MY JACKET IS GOLD when I lay my vengeance upon thee.
Atillah Moor Member since Sep 05th 2013 13825 posts
Sat Jan-03-15 11:22 AM
3. "No racism is big business but first" In response to Reply # 0 Sat Jan-03-15 11:41 AM by Atillah Moor
Fuck "The Help" I understand why folks like it (white women in particular) but like Azealia Banks I'm tired of the majority of movies about black people being struggle movies. It's like the entertainment industry only wants to portray black people as being inferior or somehow subservient to whites. Never mind the movie is basically this white woman being propped up by black women-- where are the movies about black women being propped up by white women? And seriously-- a "shit pie" is how one of the maids gets her "revenge" I felt that was the most juvenile approach to character retribution possible.
At any rate I think if anything we are all becoming a bit desensitized to it. We get all worked up, walk around, shout, and then go back to our lives until something else happens.
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Everything looks like Oprah kissing Harvey Weinstein these days
5. "agreed on personal views" In response to Reply # 0
People dig in to their beliefs and anything to the contrary that causes cognitive dissonance gets outright rejected to avoid anxiety. Then people really dig in to their beliefs, moving wven further towards whatever pole they are nearest to.
The fact that education has been villainized by concerted conservative effort doesnt help either. Remember when it was some how a negative that the Preaident went to Harvard? So people who know history and psychology get marginalized by certain populations.
6. "no your average white person does not believe..." In response to Reply # 0 Sat Jan-03-15 12:43 PM by ndibs
we still have serious discrimination in housing or employment or educational opportunities in 2015 or that there needs to be affirmative action or any special programs or legal protection for minorities to offset these issues.
the help was a see how far we've come, glad racism isn't really an issue anymore feel good, kumbaya movie for white folks. it doesn't surprise me it was produced by a white guy, but hes not that far removed bc he's gay and i'm sure has faced discrimination.
i mean few ppl exist who deny racism WAS an issue. but most don't see or understamd how racism IS an issue, even black folks.
12. "there is no way to force someone not to be racist" In response to Reply # 10
Not white americans, not Croatian fascists, not Chechens, not ethnic Serbs, etc
Because no matter how much is done systemically to alleviate the effects of intitutional racism, personal "values" are still passed down generationally.
Ingroup bias is genetically programmed into people. As for how to promote, not force, a more comprehensive view of humanity...well im pretty sure something like an alien invasion would have to happen. Humanity will always be "us vs them" and i think a non-human them is probably the only thing that will do it.
Atillah Moor Member since Sep 05th 2013 13825 posts
Sat Jan-03-15 06:22 PM
22. "Well I put up a Wednesday confession post" In response to Reply # 21 Sat Jan-03-15 06:33 PM by Atillah Moor
Which completely dismantles that line of thinking. My own experiences from the age of 5 or even 4 totally turn that notion on it's head. So I couldn't agree even if I wanted too.
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Everything looks like Oprah kissing Harvey Weinstein these days
Atillah Moor Member since Sep 05th 2013 13825 posts
Sun Jan-04-15 04:22 PM
47. "The hearts and minds of men seldom change" In response to Reply # 27
In my opinion. People will use science to try and further whatever perverse agenda they wish. Especially when power, fame, and influence can be gained.
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Everything looks like Oprah kissing Harvey Weinstein these days
28. "LMAO. im not sure how to help you understand this" In response to Reply # 25
And you dont even realize that phrenology WAS on to something, because functional localization in the brain is the basis for modern neuropsychology.
But science exists to help you understand these things. If you choose to reject it thats fine. Just realize that it marks you as self-serving and more interested in your own ideas being right than you are in the truth.
If you want to read actual scientists and aome of their findings, this link will take you to a PDF of an article from Trends in Cognitive Sciences. Something i personally put much more stock into than Confession Wednesday posts lol. If you dont, then hey...i tried.
31. "ummm haven't read the whole thing but it's not about racism" In response to Reply # 30
it's specifically talking about race encoding.
the first sentence pretty much says racial prejudice can be turned off but the question of the paper is what gets folk to recognize race in the first place:
"Race-based inferences – stereotypes – are easy to activate and inactivate, given the appropriate context . But what about race encoding? The race of an individual must be noticed and remembered before a racial stereotype can be activated or racially motivated behavior can occur."
Basically it sounds like scientific grounds for creating a post-racial society where one doesn't even recognize racial differences so that the stereotypes associated with them never occur. I'm kinda ho hum on that, but if there's some place where its explains that the biases themselves are passed down genetically and not just learned behavior please point me to the correct passage.
█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃ Big PEMFin H & z's "I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." � Miles
"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."
37. "i'm just asking for scientific research that says racial bias is..." In response to Reply # 35
passed genetically. It sounds like you've studied the subject extensively so i was hoping you could provide a link. my interest goes beyond this thread.
thanks.
█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃ Big PEMFin H & z's "I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." � Miles
"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."
39. "racial bias is just a type of ingroup bias" In response to Reply # 37
And im not sure how much has been written about that specifically
Skin color is the most obvious marker of ingroup/outgroup status, so racial bias can be safely extrapolated from knowledge regarding general ingroup bias
36. "also, where evolution is concerned everything has a purpose" In response to Reply # 33
The very notion that group differentiation is an automatic process *strongly* implies the existence of different strategies for interacting with groups
And it can be safely assumed that the strategies for dealing with ingroup members will be mote altruistic than strategies for dealing with outgroup members.
I probably got a lot more out of that article than someone less familiar with evolutionary concepts.
41. "you're reading a lot into it" In response to Reply # 36
i have to assume this is your read on things since you won't offer up any other documentation backing it up.
the first and i think most critically flawed is the assumption that differentiation == bias.
differentiation happens with everything that is different than you across species. differentiation even happens in group meaning you differentiate the individual in front of you from yourself.
now you want to say that this implies that you will treat the person who looks different than you different than the person that looks like you. but different doesn't mean with bias, particularly not with the bias we associate with racism. instead it's likely the difference is more cautionary, waiting instead for the experiences to dictate how this person who is different than you should be treated.
to show a genetic link to racial bias would mean that there is actually a gene which gets passed down from parent to child which not just informs the difference but the response to that difference.
take animal cubs. if an animal is separated from its parent before it learns to hunt it's highly likely that it will not survive because it has not been taught which things are food. based on what you're saying that should automatically be encoded into the differentiation via genes.
█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃ Big PEMFin H & z's "I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." � Miles
"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."
43. "thats exactly what bias means" In response to Reply # 41
Treating someone different based on group status is very clearly bias
And i never said that differentiation = bias. I said that the existence of a mechanism for differentiation strongly suggests the activation of bias. Otherwise there is no point to differentiation.
I can safely say there is no single gene responsible for this. Genes simply encode proteins. Complex behavior like this is the result of a number of genes acting in concert during development.
44. "i like the language in the paper you linked" In response to Reply # 43
"Race-based inferences – stereotypes – are easy to activate and inactivate, given the appropriate context . But what about race encoding? The race of an individual must be noticed and remembered before a racial stereotype can be activated or racially motivated behavior can occur."
race-based inferences would be bias. race encoding would be differentiation.
there's a difference between the two.
maybe you weren't trying to argue that racism is biological, it sure sounded like it though.
█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃ Big PEMFin H & z's "I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." � Miles
"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."
46. "in 21 you said this was 100% wrong though" In response to Reply # 45 Sun Jan-04-15 04:21 PM by imcvspl
"The envy, jealousy, and fear that create it (racism) are biological, but not bias itself. It's definitely learned."
i'm glad you're saying that racism is socialized, but wonder what if anything we experience doesn't have biological underpinnings. The biological underpinnings are there to become a rapist.
█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃ Big PEMFin H & z's "I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." � Miles
"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."
57. "it was wrong bc of the difference between capacity and propensity" In response to Reply # 46
>"The envy, jealousy, and fear that create it (racism) are >biological, but not bias itself. It's definitely learned."
We are biologically predisposed (NOT biologically bound) to bias. Emotions like envy, jealousy, and fear are 100% conditioned, though we have the biological capacity to experience them. The somatic feelings associated with fear are usually part of a conditioned response to a stimulus. Imminent death obviously doesnt require conditioning to produce fear, but a white person is not biologically programmed to experience any particular emotion when he sees say, a black man with a white woman. The emotions that produces have been conditioned. Our neurological capacity allows those emotions, but doesn't cause them.
>i'm glad you're saying that racism is socialized, but wonder >what if anything we experience doesn't have biological >underpinnings. The biological underpinnings are there to >become a rapist.
Again, its probably my fault for not being clear but biological capacity is not biological propensity. A dolphin has the biological capacity for rape. Humans have the biological capacity for suicide. We dont have a a biological propensity for either.
Atillah Moor Member since Sep 05th 2013 13825 posts
Sun Jan-04-15 04:31 PM
49. "You know the point I'm making." In response to Reply # 28
One-- I've just had too many experiences as a child to agree that it's anything other than a learned behavior. This is the same type of horse shit folks use to try and say blacks are naturally violent towards whites, naturally inferior, and so on.
Two-- science is great when unbiased men are doing the research unfortunately America and perhaps western society do not produce many of these types. Archaeologists wouldn't even acknowledge the achievements of the maya or inca and for a time the lead researchers were convinced whites played some role in the creation of their civilizations. The same could be said for the stone city of Zimbabwe. This type of bias still exists in the scientific and archaeological community.
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Everything looks like Oprah kissing Harvey Weinstein these days
11. "the thing with being the "default setting"" In response to Reply # 0
is that unless you actually know that the settings are adjustable, and look at the options, you think the default is just how it is.
If you buy a TV, and the picture looks fine to you, you'll leave it as it is and think there's nothing wrong with the picture. you might not ever click the settings button and see all the different levels that you can tweak to make the picture better than the default. Hell you might not even know those settings are there or need to be adjusted.
Similarly, if you're a white guy living in America, you might look at the way things are and think there's nothing wrong with the picture. Until you look at the different ways that the system doesn't work for non-white people, you might not realize that there are things that need to be adjusted in order to make everything better for everyone.
I think a majority of white americans just don't realize that the settings are messed up on other people's TVs, because the picture looks fine on theirs.
*Jews you*
"this is okp tho, reading is completely optional" (c) desus
16. "A documentary like Crips and Bloods Made in America should be " In response to Reply # 0
mandatory viewing for white people who think that black people are inferior culturally and bring it all on themselves. The average white person has no idea of the systemic governmental war on blacks: assassinations, housing codes, distribution of drugs into communities, purposeful withdrawal of industry when blacks start thriving, etc.
24. "divisiveness will go nowhere" In response to Reply # 0
racist structures/institutions might...
but there is too much power to be gained via divisiveness by those who seek to manipulate others and by those who fear to face disdain of themselves...
a lot of hate and ill will come from a need to escape facing your own shortcomings and flaws...when u have a false idea to hold on to that gives u a sense of superiority...u cling to it in the hopes u can avoid ur own reflection
Let me sport my Air Hyperbole 2010s in peace. (c) ansomble
54. "Honestly, it made my mom and my grandmom happy" In response to Reply # 26
When they saw it in theaters. I took forever to watch it myself. But it has that kinda underdog theatrical violin swell triumph in spots. I admit that the ending was anticlimactic for me.
Also, I didn't know I kinda loved Viola Davis. She reminds me so much of a lady from my church as a kid. I'll watch anything Octavia Spencer ever does (except that kids with cancer show) ever since she was on Halfway Home on Comedy Central. I don't think any one project will ever adequately make use of what she's truly capable of. I can get with her in a serious role, but her comedic turns end me.
But the thing that struck me was the apathy to police brutality bit , when the whole crowded street watched the cop nightstick Aunjanue Ellis in the face/head, blinked and moved on. If not for its absolute basis in truth, it would be absurd. And yet, that aspect of our cultural existence has not changed.
56. "oh wow. read the book and absolutely hated it" In response to Reply # 0
>I just watched the help. It was incredible. I was moved. And >I saw the credits. And it was brought to me by nate ber
hated the sanctimonious tone of the book. i can see it being made into a movie by the guys you pointed out
interesting enough i met an black american here in juba the other day and a) he's republican and b) he actually used the line, if those people i.e poor black people, i guess?) werent so busy getting pregnant as teenagers and then when he was talking about my people (i.e he'd gone out to some village here in south sudan) he was like, 'my people' ... (how they are hard working and blablabla)
i kept looking to make sure he really was a black dude cause he sounded exactly like those come to save the africans but dont really give a shit about black people in their own country paternalistic white folks that i always run into send better representatives.
(
. http://perspectivesudans.blogspot.com/ i myself would never want to be god,or even like god.Because god got all these human beings on this planet and i most certainly would not want to be responsible for them, or even have the disgrace that i made them.
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