this is some all lives matter, everybody needs healing crap. she's not the first to say this stupidness, but she didn't need to add her voice in this way.
nobody should be caring for rkelly's well being cept maybe his momma.
4. "that's what some Christians do to condemn homosexuality" In response to Reply # 2
the only difference is they're bold enough to be dickheads about it. Erykah Badu wont judge R Kelly either way
also, two (wo)men of age loving each other isnt against the law, as opposed to preying on young black girls
loving someone despite behavior that you dont agree with applies to things like alcoholism/drug abuse or even voting for Trump, not sex cults and all types abuse towards women
6. "Youre wrong. " In response to Reply # 4 Mon Jan-21-19 12:04 AM by Jon
If we're talking about Jesus, He didnt create a double-column list of types of sinners, some that you should love and pray for, and some that you should hate and dehumanize.
ALL sinners are to be loved. "Love your enemies" "pray for those who persecute you" etc
The Jesus of Christian account had ppl torturing him, spitting on him, etc, and asked God to forgive them...His early followers were fed to lions and prayed for the people feeding them to lions.
15. "there is no hierarchy for sin..." In response to Reply # 13
like. while you may think someone else’s shit is worst than yours...it’s not. Once you let go of that idea then you can understand it. I applaud Badu for this approach because it exposes our flawed way of thinking.
especially those that call ourselves Christians...
legsdiamond Member since May 05th 2011 80007 posts
Mon Jan-21-19 02:19 PM
60. "Shit is easy for me. I’ve cheated in the past" In response to Reply # 41
but I’ve never held woman hostage, hollered at young girls, peed on them or wrote songs about it... then bragged about never being caught to my people on video at a private party.
Unless you out here raping and starving people I think it’s pretty easy to make a judgement on if it’s a terrible thing to do.
**************** TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*
63. "it’s easy for most of us..." In response to Reply # 60
what’s not is looking at things differently or a least trying. folks are so focus on believing that I...Badu are justifying behavior that they can’t see pass anything else.
> >You just can’t wrap your head around the idea that >some of your heroes are awful people. > >Stop with the other bullshit, you just want to play >his shit guilt free. > >Sorry, but you’re defending a child rapist cuz you >can’t move on. Stop with the “what you have done >is no better” bullshit. > >Most of us never had sex with a 14 year old. > >You even have kids, no? Yikes. > >
42. "YOU MAY NOT HAVE DONE WHAT HE DID BUT YOU'RE THE SAME AS HIM" In response to Reply # 26
>shall I burn in hell too? > >the point is, you may not have done what he did but, the way >you’ve used women in the past is no better. All is awful...
39. "I think his music is trash (save for DL) and his lifestyle is evil" In response to Reply # 24
All the more reason for people like me to pray for him, and people who arent like me to perhaps wish for healing.
That doesnt mean giving him a pass or letting him hurt people, even if it means hurting him in the process. Protecting the innocent always comes first, and nobody disputes that.
86. "Sin isnt ''flat'' in terms of harm, just in terms of redeemability, and" In response to Reply # 81 Tue Jan-22-19 04:21 PM by Jon
In terms of us all being very capable of falling far worse than we have, fortunate that we haven't, and thus shouldn't judge too harshly those who have fallen into sin harder, even if we judge the hell out of the sin itself.
Likewise, if you feel you have done terrible evil things, it makes you no less redeemable than the most saintly person.
It doesnt mean stealing someone's favorite pen is as harmful as rape.
Perhsps other Christans interpret thst differently, but thats how i was taught and thats what i believe.
27. "RE: maybe you're not fully aware of what R Kelly has done" In response to Reply # 23 Mon Jan-21-19 10:54 AM by Jon
No it doesnt make me a defender of awful shit, because its the awful dhit that i said we should hate. You're struggling to process and grasp the difference we draw between evil deeds and the individuals who commit them.
Nobody is defending the deeds. Those are indefensible. We are defending the philosophy that evil deeds are done by complicated and redeemable creatures called humans.
44. "R Kelly is irredeemable" In response to Reply # 27
this has been going on for 25 years that we know of he's never admitted he has a problem his circle helps him, the Chicago PD protects him bad parents pimp out their kids to him, parents that didnt approve still accepted payoffs to not appear in court
50. "I dont blame you for holding that view, but im disturbed by" In response to Reply # 44
the trend of vilifying others (like Badu, or myself) for simply holding onto the view that evil-doers ARE redeemable
That's the crux of my whole foray into this discussion: the idea that believing in the possibility of redemption and healing for evil-doers is now being treated as vile ...not just difficult... not unrealistic... but vile.
22. "you said "You can love someone and hate their deeds"" In response to Reply # 6
I retorted "this is what Christian dickheads use to get away with gay intolerance"
but anyway the crux is whether or not a guy who's abused young black women for over two decades deserves sympathy, not something I'd expect to hit you in the heart as a white man. yes I've been forced to make this about race
25. "Red herrings galore" In response to Reply # 22
I dont think you understand what we mean by all sinners, and you dont seem to think that would include any sins that are really really bad and against people who you would be able to give me credit for caring about.
You were not forced to bring race into it, lol, you were so eager that you took a flying logical leap.
I sadly cant convince you that i care about these young black women who are his victims, because you probably rely on thinking i dont, and i dont think discussing my own personal life to prove otherwise is worth it, but you don't think i care about any victims of any psycho shit of any color? You dont think Erykah freakin Badu cares?
46. "I dont do well with patronizing" In response to Reply # 25 Mon Jan-21-19 12:25 PM by atruhead
>I dont think you understand what we mean by all sinners, and >you dont seem to think that would include any sins that are >really really bad and against people who you would be able to >give me credit for caring about.
>You were not forced to bring race into it, lol, you were so >eager that you took a flying logical leap.
you're the white guy, the topic is "how should we feel about a serial abuser of black women", your thoughts are "he's like anyone else who's done a bad thing"
>I sadly cant convince you that i care about these young black >women who are his victims, because you probably rely on >thinking I dont
Im not invested in winning internet arguments. you inform me on your thoughts, I give my feedback, you dont have to validate it or agree
You >dont think Erykah freakin Badu cares?
I think Erykah Badu cares about the victims and caring just as much about the victimizer means she doesn't care about the victims enough
49. "There was zero patronizing involved. You're falling back on" In response to Reply # 46
useless ad hominem presumptions to keep your face above water in a conversation about whether a classic moral ideal (wanting healing for evil-doers in spite of their evil deeds) is now an actual taboo
The moment you don't believe in an organized religion or a figure head like a Jesus that embodies said religion, your point is moot as it pertains to empathy for R under a pre-defined value structure. Does Badu consider that she might have fans not indoctrinated by Christian beliefs? Guess not if she is leaning on Christ for an empathetic view.
A subjective POV via religion is just that, subjective. It doesn't matter what Badu thinks.... if your morals are derived from a book. good on you. Not everyone lets a book decide their moral values.
She has a right to say whatever she wants.... in turn you have a right to be like... I won't be seeing Badu live again...
37. "Yeah you whiffed on my point completely" In response to Reply # 31
Obviously not everyone in iur society is Christian. Thats nit breaking news. I dont even think Christians are majority at this point, tho i could be wrong.
The point i made was with the possible taboo nature of what the symbol of Jesus represents.
Until maybe now, many many Non-Christians generally still considered the central tenets represented by Jesus to be a positive. A distillation of fundamental humanist principles that would make a good person out of someone who follows that example or ideal.
I said perhaps Jesus (the symbol, the metaphor) is now taboo...has nothing to do with whether people are actually Christians.
53. "this case is showing that" In response to Reply # 37
humans have limits, regardless of belief systems. its arbitrary and personal, but folks don't mind redemption within the limits that we each decide. most folks are for 2nd chances. hell, most of us need them. but if you need a lifetime pass, that's a problem.
with all the history that kellz has been on the wrong side of, many of us have stopped caring about his healing and are in fuck him/die mode. not just him stopping and asking forgiveness.
54. "And i completely respect that" In response to Reply # 53 Mon Jan-21-19 01:33 PM by Jon
I dont fault anyone for feeling like they cant even begin to care about R Kelly's redemption or healing, giving the heinous nature and multitudes of people he's done evil things to.
Altho i would wish our whole society could be filled with unlimited forgiveness and mercy for all human beings, i dont expect that could ever be the case. Everyone has limits, and its always harder to forgive the closer something hits to home.
What I'm pushing back on, or just citing as concerning, is the idea that we should attack or vilify someone else (Badu) for advocating a level of that merciful spirit that is closer to that ultimate ideal than we might personally be able to muster.
55. "You were reply #2, you created an agenda out of thin air" In response to Reply # 54
>What I'm pushing back on, or just citing as concerning, is the >idea that we should attack or vilify someone else (Badu) for >advocating a level of that merciful spirit that is closer to >that ultimate ideal than we might personally be able to >muster.
the title "Erykah Badu went full mistermaxxx" was a tongue in cheek reference to
1) Tropic Thunder 2) a troll from here who defends R Kelly to ridiculous levels
how you made this about attacking or vilifying her is beyond me
Nah, it wouldn't mean you're not a Christian imo. Everyone falls short of such a high standard. If you still hold it as the ideal, the goal, and you are falling short but striving in that direction, its completely different than if you decide its NOT something you should strive for, or worse yet, you try to shame those who do.
76. "Poor standard tho" In response to Reply # 66 Mon Jan-21-19 06:42 PM by Jon
Its extremely difficult to be fair minded when its you or yours being wronged like that...which is why its an IDEAL (something to strive for) and not an expectation...which is why we dont have victims and their families on the jury or choosing the sentences.
57. "I don't see it as an attack on her." In response to Reply # 54
just different sentiments. I don't like her thoughts for this particular person. he's too far gone for me. I completely disagree with her. and hope she doesn't die on this hill for rkelly.
73. "let jesus love him... I don't" In response to Reply # 2
besides which the ship has already sailed for the love he really needed to be a decent human... he's redeemable like the deposit on a pop bottle imo... no more.
8. "i get what she's saying but not everyone is redeemable" In response to Reply # 0
he confessed of his own abuse and molestation to girls that i'm sure offered him "love and understanding". he repaid them by using that as a tool to abuse and molest them.
if he wants redemption, he should start by donating his every last cent to abuse victims and causes... then jumping off a bridge.
12. "Not everyone will seek redemption, but everyone is redeemable. " In response to Reply # 8
That is, has the ability to seek redemption.
I wish she had packaged this different, that is, first talk about his victims and have prayers for them, but her message is not at all controversial within the Christian faith.
Prisons are filled with murderers, rapists and people who have done other horrible things who have seen the errors in their ways, sought forgiveness and are trying to live their lives as good Christians. If these folks are redeemable, Kelly is redeemable as well.
I don't it will happen but it is possible.
********** "Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson
But the problem is he's not seeking redemption. He doesn't think he has done anything wrong, and further, has made it a habit of threatening, bribing and otherwise seeking to destroy his accusers.
This is not a dude who's sorry and seeking forgiveness. This is a sociopath who, since he was first found out, has only doubled down on the behavior.
I don't think any talk of redemption applies here and I think it's weird and wholly disconnected to suggest otherwise.
legsdiamond Member since May 05th 2011 80007 posts
Mon Jan-21-19 10:22 AM
20. "Most of OKP is on some “even a murderer can be rehabilitated”" In response to Reply # 0
so why not the R?
Now personally, I’m not that forgiving.
Let God forgive.
**************** TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*
36. "Its always harder when youre affected by it. Thats why" In response to Reply # 34
we dont let plaintiffs sit on the jury or dole out the sentences.
Thats why, in the Jesus philosophy, a central tenet is to love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, with an example given of a man asking a higher power to forgive people who had just tortured him for hours while he died at their hands.
40. "Its pardoned, and this isnt about believing in Christianity" In response to Reply # 38 Mon Jan-21-19 11:33 AM by Jon
Its about whether we're now going to move from a secular society that considers the central humanist philosophy symbolized by the figure of Jesus (love, forgiveness, praying or wishing healing for enemies and persecutors) to be a positive ideal to strive for, or if we've moved to a secular society in which that central ideal symbolized by the figure of Jesus is now taboo.
**************** TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*
"I cannot see how nature could have created itself. Only a supernatural force that is outside of space and time could have done that. ~ Francis Collins
"I cannot see how nature could have created itself. Only a supernatural force that is outside of space and time could have done that. ~ Francis Collins
"I cannot see how nature could have created itself. Only a supernatural force that is outside of space and time could have done that. ~ Francis Collins
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