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Subject: "I cant fuck with Bernie." Previous topic | Next topic
double negative
Member since Dec 14th 2007
22151 posts
Wed Mar-02-16 12:39 PM

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"I cant fuck with Bernie."


  

          

Confession.

I've been trying to make sense of this

But...

I cant get on the Bernie train.
He has good ideas. He marched with black people. He's Jewish and thats novel.
90% of my friends are rooting hard for his platform.

I'm not 100% Clinton but in my mind she is a known-known.
She is deeply fucking problematic this is true.




This whole Sanders circus is bring up feelings of bitterness for me because I think I am souring on people and fake mass optimism.

I keep thinking back to the high-low shift that happened with Obama. Hopes were sky sky SKY high and then when he didn't pan out to be a rainbow shitting magical negro everyone turned into a bunch of crying babies.

I cant help but think the same thing is going to happen to Bernie. I believe people have a very juvenile view of the world and believe politics/policy/infrastructure is a nimble vehicle when it's really the opposite.

A lot of people want a president to "get in there and raise some hell brother" which is why Trump has been picking up, he is selling us on the 'political outsider' angle. One who will bend the rules to make things great again.

I'm not ready to handle the screams of mass disappointment when its revealed that at the end of the day Bernie like all others is just a politician. He might have some great ideas but he still has to exist in a system of checks and balances.

I often wonder how differently the world would be if people were this passionate about local elections.


For the record, if Bernie goes all the way then I am voting like all hell for him to make sure he gets the job.

***********************************************************
https://soundcloud.com/swageyph/yph-die-with-me

  

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Topic Outline
Subject Author Message Date ID
i'm w/you.
Mar 02nd 2016
1
This is what absolutely kills me.
Mar 02nd 2016
20
      i agree.
Mar 02nd 2016
23
      this is how the right wing hijacked the whole process. voter ID
Mar 02nd 2016
35
           it's a campaign finance/media issue as well.
Mar 02nd 2016
43
Lol good grief
Mar 02nd 2016
2
You are explaining the point I just made. Thanks
Mar 02nd 2016
4
lol. exactly. nm
Mar 02nd 2016
31
I didnt want your black, magical, rainbow shitting strawman tho.
Mar 03rd 2016
135
      his sounds better tho
Mar 04th 2016
140
If you thought he ran as a progressive,
Mar 02nd 2016
13
I can, but he needs to start talking about something else
Mar 02nd 2016
3
This reads like Hillary fans have no expectations
Mar 02nd 2016
5
that wasnt the intention
Mar 02nd 2016
6
The status quo we can lukewarmly support! Maybe!
Mar 02nd 2016
7
Lol, exactly.
Mar 02nd 2016
19
My cynical Support for Hillary is that why the game needs changing
Mar 02nd 2016
9
      same here.
Mar 02nd 2016
24
      right? i appreciate the hell outta bernie pushing her way left.
Mar 02nd 2016
39
      I love Elizabeth Warren but I don't think she would be my ideal candidat...
Mar 02nd 2016
46
      You're one of the few I've seen actually use the word support....
Mar 02nd 2016
48
      i know more than one person who's excited about her as POTUS.
Mar 02nd 2016
73
           cool
Mar 02nd 2016
104
      .
Mar 03rd 2016
132
the only people "deeply fucking problematic" are Trump & Cruz
Mar 02nd 2016
8
nah, Hillary vs. Bernie is fine. This is the time to do it
Mar 02nd 2016
11
of course. i wasn't taking issue with that
Mar 02nd 2016
12
Ashley Williams was assaulted by HRC supporters when they
Mar 02nd 2016
18
RE: Ashley Williams was assaulted by HRC supporters when they
Mar 02nd 2016
21
U & DAMALI ARE CORRECT ABOUT ASHLEY, MY APOLOGIES DAMALI!
Mar 02nd 2016
33
      RE: U & DAMALI ARE CORRECT ABOUT ASHLEY, MY APOLOGIES DAMALI!
Mar 02nd 2016
37
RE: Ashley Williams was assaulted by HRC supporters when they
Mar 02nd 2016
28
RE: of course. i wasn't taking issue with that
Mar 02nd 2016
22
"deeply fucking problematic" is a PERFECT way to describe her
Mar 02nd 2016
30
yup
Mar 02nd 2016
27
The woman who wanted to bring young black super-predators to heel
Mar 02nd 2016
17
than Donald or Ted Cruz? 1000 times yes.
Mar 03rd 2016
131
the Hillary vs. Bernie thing is fine as long as supporters of either
Mar 02nd 2016
25
      In a weirdly optimistic sort of way i see this happening on the
Mar 02nd 2016
32
      i think so too.
Mar 02nd 2016
80
      There's one distinction that makes this race different though.
Mar 02nd 2016
42
           for the party that claims to be nuanced/rational
Mar 02nd 2016
52
           I'm just pointing out that the same rules don't apply.
Mar 02nd 2016
54
                people are gonna talk about it, so we need to talk about it
Mar 02nd 2016
72
           'we'?
Mar 02nd 2016
82
He's my dude, and I'll vote for him as long as I can
Mar 02nd 2016
10
^^^^^
Mar 02nd 2016
53
agree..folks falling for the Bernie as the new hope
Mar 02nd 2016
14
You have to understand the whole thing is manipulated to begin with
Mar 02nd 2016
15
this country has to take baby steps in either direction
Mar 02nd 2016
16
I'm glad....
Mar 02nd 2016
26
the prospect of free higher ed if the youth continue mobilizing is huge
Mar 02nd 2016
29
i dont know whats worse..Trump supporters or auto Hillary voters..
Mar 02nd 2016
34
RE: i dont know whats worse..Trump supporters or auto Hillary voters..
Mar 02nd 2016
36
easy call. Trump supporters are the worst.
Mar 02nd 2016
38
They're worse, but they're unlikely to win him the election...
Mar 02nd 2016
40
      RE: They're worse, but they're unlikely to win him the election...
Mar 02nd 2016
56
Which side of a coin is worth more? Same answer different coin.
Mar 02nd 2016
41
How many of us remember the "Gore is no better than Bush" talk?
Mar 02nd 2016
44
I'll never vote for Hillary....
Mar 02nd 2016
47
Yup, that's precisely the kind of talk.
Mar 02nd 2016
51
it's not childish at all
Mar 02nd 2016
55
      That's a matter of opinion,
Mar 02nd 2016
57
           I thought all that hanging chad business elected GWB?
Mar 02nd 2016
59
           You're misinformed.
Mar 02nd 2016
61
           We all are. So there's no validity to the election being stolen?
Mar 02nd 2016
65
                a supreme court selection not an election.
Mar 02nd 2016
68
                     I stand corrected.
Mar 02nd 2016
88
           RE: I thought all that hanging chad business elected GWB?
Mar 02nd 2016
75
           RE: That's a matter of opinion,
Mar 02nd 2016
60
           lol, fear monger much?
Mar 02nd 2016
62
           lol, misplace blame much?
Mar 02nd 2016
70
                cant have it both ways fam..You blaming the US voters for Bush...
Mar 02nd 2016
92
                     Wait, so Sanders's speech had an effect on something?
Mar 02nd 2016
105
                          so only votes that win, matter?
Mar 04th 2016
141
           ..and Hillary voted to go to Iraq
Mar 02nd 2016
63
           RE: ..and Hillary voted to go to Iraq
Mar 02nd 2016
67
                but Hillary did vote to go into Iraq.
Mar 02nd 2016
79
                     she voted for all of the wars and she's STILL a better choice
Mar 02nd 2016
85
                          she's still a better choice, but she still voted for that shit
Mar 02nd 2016
91
                               sure.
Mar 02nd 2016
99
           Al Gore did it perfectly good job boning himself in the '00 election
Mar 02nd 2016
93
I find this thinking completely and totally illogical.
Mar 02nd 2016
74
      it's only acceptable from ppl too young to recall the 2000 election.
Mar 02nd 2016
78
           Gore was a weak candidate who couldn't carry his home state
Mar 02nd 2016
98
                uh huh.
Mar 02nd 2016
100
The problem I have
Mar 02nd 2016
69
You seem to be neglecting the possibility,
Mar 02nd 2016
89
      This is why so many of us are so anti Hillary and Trump though
Mar 02nd 2016
103
      RE: This is why so many of us are so anti Hillary and Trump though
Mar 02nd 2016
107
           i typed up a point by point thing but it seems pretty useless
Mar 02nd 2016
122
      Agreed.
Mar 02nd 2016
108
           the difference between the right and the left
Mar 02nd 2016
113
                If that were true Rick Santorum would have won a nomination.
Mar 02nd 2016
120
                1) you're ignoring how this is working everywhere but the presidency
Mar 02nd 2016
123
                     RE: 1) you're ignoring how this is working everywhere but the presidency
Mar 02nd 2016
127
                I'm not talking about the difference between two parties
Mar 02nd 2016
124
i voted for Nader. LOL
Mar 02nd 2016
76
Thought it was bullshit back then. Voted for Nader anyway. In California
Mar 02nd 2016
86
      Sounds about right
Mar 02nd 2016
94
i'm not into politics at all, but this seems like the worst collection o...
Mar 02nd 2016
45
On the contrary.
Mar 02nd 2016
49
And what do the people in congress believe? Not that.
Mar 02nd 2016
58
So.....
Mar 02nd 2016
64
Doesn't matter because of congress pretty much sums it up.
Mar 02nd 2016
95
most of congress is bought & paid for by special intrest groups
Mar 02nd 2016
66
      i don't have time to travel to DC to lobby my congressppl.
Mar 02nd 2016
83
           jesus christ
Mar 02nd 2016
97
                *shrugs*
Mar 02nd 2016
101
Maybe so, but the candidates I hear the most about are hilarious and
Mar 02nd 2016
112
      Honestly....
Mar 02nd 2016
126
           My problem with Bernie
Mar 02nd 2016
128
                there are working models for how to do what he's proposing though
Mar 04th 2016
142
someone on tv last night said
Mar 02nd 2016
71
The 2012 GOP slate was every bit the clown car as this one
Mar 03rd 2016
134
      Nah. 2012 debates didn't literally look like Jerry Springer episdoes
Mar 03rd 2016
136
aka I have no hope and refuse to even try.
Mar 02nd 2016
50
sure, yeah.
Mar 02nd 2016
77
Democratic Party superdelegates are undemocratic
Mar 02nd 2016
81
RE: Democratic Party superdelegates are undemocratic
Mar 02nd 2016
106
i love Bernie. Too many of his supporters have become ridiculous
Mar 02nd 2016
84
I really think that's a function of "people on the Internet are obnoxiou...
Mar 02nd 2016
87
True that. I have a couple friends doing it though
Mar 02nd 2016
90
      Oh, I've certainly got them on my FB timeline as well.
Mar 02nd 2016
96
           ha. i don't think i have either one of these
Mar 02nd 2016
102
This also is fascinating to me.
Mar 02nd 2016
119
      Where did i say anything about my vote?
Mar 02nd 2016
121
I can't fuck with healthy food.
Mar 02nd 2016
109
I can't be snarked into supporting any candidate for political office.
Mar 02nd 2016
110
      k.
Mar 02nd 2016
111
      Congratulations you're an obtuse dick nm
Mar 02nd 2016
114
           Thanks.
Mar 02nd 2016
117
If you don't vote for Bernie Sanders and you're a progressive?
Mar 02nd 2016
115
Keep in mind that I'm a Bernie voter, but...
Mar 02nd 2016
125
      ^^^^^^^^^^^^
Mar 03rd 2016
129
      The difference is too stark for me to buy that.
Mar 03rd 2016
130
           Funny that you're talking about stark differences.
Mar 03rd 2016
137
                I have no way of knowing the difference between 2 unknown* quantities.
Mar 03rd 2016
138
                     So you feel "Hillary or Bernie" is the same as "Hillary or Trump."
Mar 04th 2016
154
that is bernies 'political revolution'. he is just the lead domino
Mar 02nd 2016
116
I wish us all the best of luck with it.
Mar 02nd 2016
118
      unfortunately there is not only a wash dc-sized hairclog
Mar 03rd 2016
133
I know some feel there has been too much Clinton-bashing...
Mar 03rd 2016
139
THIS is another disgusting example of the HUMAN COST of USA INC.
Mar 04th 2016
143
      and Americans act shocked when these people hate us
Mar 04th 2016
144
           as a teacher i'm senstive to the reality that if people aren't exposed
Mar 04th 2016
147
if bernie dont win im staying home or voting trump has to be the most
Mar 04th 2016
145
it is... but how many are actually saying this?
Mar 04th 2016
146
      If a person is a crazy enough Bernie Bro or Trump Pumper
Mar 04th 2016
149
      RE: it is... but how many are actually saying this?
Mar 04th 2016
151
      im prolly. little more in tune with this shit than you bruh
Mar 04th 2016
155
           Uhhhh, thats because turn out has been low. Wtf
Mar 04th 2016
156
the battle is not the presidency
Mar 04th 2016
148
Why are there suddenly millions of socialists in America?
Mar 04th 2016
150
RE: Why are there suddenly millions of socialists in America?
Mar 04th 2016
152
that's kind of Bernie's point though
Mar 04th 2016
153

SoWhat
Charter member
154163 posts
Wed Mar-02-16 12:51 PM

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1. "i'm w/you."
In response to Reply # 0
Wed Mar-02-16 12:53 PM by SoWhat

  

          

>I cant help but think the same thing is going to happen to
>Bernie. I believe people have a very juvenile view of the
>world and believe politics/policy/infrastructure is a nimble
>vehicle when it's really the opposite.
>
>A lot of people want a president to "get in there and raise
>some hell brother" which is why Trump has been picking up, he
>is selling us on the 'political outsider' angle. One who will
>bend the rules to make things great again.

YUP!

i dig most/all of what Bernie's talking about and i just don't see it coming to fruition. it would be disappointing for me to see him fail. which is why i'm not buying what he's selling.

i want him to work on the issues he's raised - i just don't think he can/should do that work as POTUS. i think he's better off either staying in the Senate or working in the private sector or for a non-profit org focused on the sort of hell-raising he's all about. but as POTUS it just won't work.

>I'm not ready to handle the screams of mass disappointment
>when its revealed that at the end of the day Bernie like all
>others is just a politician. He might have some great ideas
>but he still has to exist in a system of checks and balances.

and his plan for confronting the checks/balances requires his supporters to become/remain more politically involved than we've ever seen from the gen pop in the USA. i don't see his ppl getting/remaining so fired up that they're all up in their legislators' local offices raising hell and demanding support for Bernie's policies. i don't see them making trips to DC to raise hell. i don't see them even turning out for mid-term elections to toss out the obstructionists. i don't have enough faith in the American ppl to believe in this dream of a 'political revolution'.

i say this b/c of the example i've seen over the past 8 yrs w/Obama. ppl were all kinds of fired up to vote for him in primaries and the general in 2008. and then, as always, the fire died out. the involvement wasn't sustained. ppl went back to life as normal. i suspect the same will happen w/the Bernie supporters.

>I often wonder how differently the world would be if people
>were this passionate about local elections.

Bernie's plans don't work w/o ppl being/remaining passionate in local/mid-term elections. i just don't see it. i wish it could be so though.

>For the record, if Bernie goes all the way then I am voting
>like all hell for him to make sure he gets the job.

absolutely. same here. i will vote for him in a general if he's the Dem's nominee.

fuck you.

  

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Frank Longo
Member since Nov 18th 2003
86703 posts
Wed Mar-02-16 01:56 PM

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20. "This is what absolutely kills me."
In response to Reply # 1


  

          


>>I often wonder how differently the world would be if people
>>were this passionate about local elections.
>
>Bernie's plans don't work w/o ppl being/remaining passionate
>in local/mid-term elections. i just don't see it. i wish it
>could be so though.

If voters really want to create progressive change in this country, they have to get passionate across this nation about their House races, their Senate races, their governors, their mayors, their state court judges, etc. You can't just promote a figurehead and assume he'll solve everything. That's not the way democracy works.

Not even to suggest that this is a problem exclusive to Bernie supporters-- it's a problem down the line in this country. Progressives need to give far far far more shits about local/state/House and Senate elections. Loving your Presidential candidate isn't even approaching enough.

My movies: http://russellhainline.com
My movie reviews: https://letterboxd.com/RussellHFilm/
My beer TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@thebeertravelguide

  

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SoWhat
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Wed Mar-02-16 02:03 PM

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23. "i agree."
In response to Reply # 20


  

          

fuck you.

  

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poetx
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58856 posts
Wed Mar-02-16 02:45 PM

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35. "this is how the right wing hijacked the whole process. voter ID"
In response to Reply # 20


  

          

and all kinds of other foul shit, i'm seeing this firsthand in NC.

and i wrote about it and warned about it, because they did the same shit during the last republican wave election.

they took over all kinds of local ass dogcatcher type elections -- offices that were previously non partisan, like school boards, planning boards, county boards, etc., where a couple yard signs and 300 votes gets you put on -- they bumrushed that shit.

they took the local elections. took the state houses and senates. and, once in, gerrymandered the FUCK outta all of that and introduced all kinds of draconian shit. no new taxes!!! but gave tax breaks to the wealthy and then introduced regressive assed FEES across the board. so people on low or fixed incomes end up getting nickel and dimed to death, on some $50 trash pickup FEE and shit like that. shifting the cost burden on people who can't afford it.

in NC, thanks also to a long history of corruption in state politics at the dem level (thanks y'all for not being above reproach), they got the governorship with slimy ass mccrory. who served as mayor of charlotte while simultaneously taking checks from duke energy as a lobbyist.

and then, after he got in office and duke had one of the worst environmental catastrophes in history, dumping however many thousand tons of coal ash into our rivers and virginia's rivers, dragged his feet for over a year and tried not to investigate it, and finally let them get away with taps on the wrist.

in the meantime, a state with NO in person voter fraud railroads through changes that damn near completely undid the Voting Rights Act, arbitrarily (not really, it was targeted) restricting the ability for folks to register and vote who were students, black, brown, etc.

and THEN they redistricted (gerrymandered) the hell outta the election map, which got shot down by an appeals court and sent to the supremes...

but all these smart-dumb ass too woke to vote ass ni&&as (of all colors, nationalities and economic status) who sat out the mid terms blaming obama for this type of shit.


>If voters really want to create progressive change in this
>country, they have to get passionate across this nation about
>their House races, their Senate races, their governors, their
>mayors, their state court judges, etc. You can't just promote
>a figurehead and assume he'll solve everything. That's not the
>way democracy works.
>
>Not even to suggest that this is a problem exclusive to Bernie
>supporters-- it's a problem down the line in this country.
>Progressives need to give far far far more shits about
>local/state/House and Senate elections. Loving your
>Presidential candidate isn't even approaching enough.

right. sausage making 101 is not really taught in our schools. and it damn sure doesn't make it through on the news in our soundbitocracy.




peace & blessings,

x.

www.twitter.com/poetx

=========================================
I'm an advocate for working smarter, not harder. If you just
focus on working hard you end up making someone else rich and
not having much to show for it. (c) mad

  

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rob
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Wed Mar-02-16 03:33 PM

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43. "it's a campaign finance/media issue as well."
In response to Reply # 35


  

          

the barriers to participation are too high, and even people with access to the process have to spend so much time raising money/keeping people who give them money happy that they're not governing.

if we just financed elections publicly and made the windows shorter, we'd be in much better shape.

more radically, i'm starting to feel like 2 year house terms are too short, especially because those people are almost guaranteed reelection. the logic of our 2 party/winner-take-all system is also fundamentally flawed, but i don't see a route to proportional representation or any kind of third party that isn't part of a temporary realignment.

and we need to do something about the constant election cycle in the media. we can't regulate it without breaking the first amendment, other than finding a way to undo citizen's united - but people are going to have to be more discerning consumers.


  

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cgonz00cc
Member since Aug 01st 2002
35328 posts
Wed Mar-02-16 12:53 PM

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2. "Lol good grief"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

"when he didn't pan out to be a rainbow shitting magical negro everyone turned into a bunch of crying babies."

Not a solid grasp of nuance on display here. Not even a basic grasp really.

He ran as progressive and governed as a centrist. Simple as that.

WHAT A TIME TO BE ALIVE

  

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double negative
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4. "You are explaining the point I just made. Thanks"
In response to Reply # 2


  

          

***********************************************************
https://soundcloud.com/swageyph/yph-die-with-me

  

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poetx
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Wed Mar-02-16 02:32 PM

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31. "lol. exactly. nm"
In response to Reply # 4


  

          


peace & blessings,

x.

www.twitter.com/poetx

=========================================
I'm an advocate for working smarter, not harder. If you just
focus on working hard you end up making someone else rich and
not having much to show for it. (c) mad

  

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cgonz00cc
Member since Aug 01st 2002
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Thu Mar-03-16 03:39 PM

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135. "I didnt want your black, magical, rainbow shitting strawman tho."
In response to Reply # 4


  

          

WHAT A TIME TO BE ALIVE

  

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astralblak
Member since Apr 05th 2007
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Fri Mar-04-16 03:03 AM

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140. "his sounds better tho"
In response to Reply # 135


  

          

.

  

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stravinskian
Member since Feb 24th 2003
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Wed Mar-02-16 01:25 PM

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13. "If you thought he ran as a progressive,"
In response to Reply # 2
Wed Mar-02-16 01:27 PM by stravinskian

          

then you really weren't paying attention.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eWynt87PaJ0

In 2008, he and Hillary were essentially identical on the issues. On the few issues where they differed, he was slightly to her right.

He was a mainstream, coalition Democrat, just like her. The kind of person who wins elections.

  

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Deebot
Member since Oct 21st 2004
26762 posts
Wed Mar-02-16 12:57 PM

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3. "I can, but he needs to start talking about something else"
In response to Reply # 0


          

It's good to be consistent with a message to let ppl know you won't flip flop, but by this late in the game it's just getting too predictable and repetitive. Say something different, Bernie.

  

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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
80108 posts
Wed Mar-02-16 12:58 PM

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5. "This reads like Hillary fans have no expectations"
In response to Reply # 0


          

I guess she is the change we can't believe in




****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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double negative
Member since Dec 14th 2007
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6. "that wasnt the intention"
In response to Reply # 5


  

          

im trying to be realistic here

***********************************************************
https://soundcloud.com/swageyph/yph-die-with-me

  

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veritas
Member since Sep 16th 2002
37201 posts
Wed Mar-02-16 01:02 PM

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7. "The status quo we can lukewarmly support! Maybe! "
In response to Reply # 5


          

Would make for good bumper stickers

i still blame hip-hop.

  

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Boogie Stimuli
Member since Sep 24th 2010
14137 posts
Wed Mar-02-16 01:49 PM

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19. "Lol, exactly."
In response to Reply # 7


          

"Bernie's making too much sense. He's talking too much change."

Black folks out here being killed with impunity, and BLACK people
are talking about wanting something familiar.
How is anyone to respect that?


~
~
~
~
~
Days like this I miss Sha Mecca

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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9. "My cynical Support for Hillary is that why the game needs changing"
In response to Reply # 5


  

          

no single individual is coming in and changing the game (it will take many people working over decades to make structural changes to the system). So in the mean time I want the politician who is best at playing the game as it is currently designed.

People don't like Hillary because she is slick but that's the reason why I am attracted to her.





**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

  

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SoWhat
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24. "same here."
In response to Reply # 9


  

          

fuck you.

  

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poetx
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39. "right? i appreciate the hell outta bernie pushing her way left. "
In response to Reply # 9


  

          

and 'talkin bout it' as far as the big money shit goes. and i'll vote for him in the primary if shit is still up for grabs when our turn comes.

and yes, i'll be holding tf outta my nose if/when i vote for hilldawg in the general. she is infinitely better than anyone on the other side. as they say on Kos, more and better is the goal.

i can't stay home, tho. again, in nc, disaffected dems + off-year elections, plus other ish got us a trainwreck trifecta of repub house, senate and presidency and that is fucking up the state in every way imaginable, AND threatening national politics (via systemic disfranchisement of PoC's and other traditionally dem constituencies).

i would have rather elizabeth warren run as an alternative to hillary. she's brilliant and dope. but again, i appreciate the hell outta bernie for running, running pretty well (against the party's annointed candidate) and pushing her to the left.

>no single individual is coming in and changing the game (it
>will take many people working over decades to make structural
>changes to the system). So in the mean time I want the
>politician who is best at playing the game as it is currently
>designed.
>
>People don't like Hillary because she is slick but that's the
>reason why I am attracted to her.



peace & blessings,

x.

www.twitter.com/poetx

=========================================
I'm an advocate for working smarter, not harder. If you just
focus on working hard you end up making someone else rich and
not having much to show for it. (c) mad

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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46. "I love Elizabeth Warren but I don't think she would be my ideal candidat..."
In response to Reply # 39


  

          

I just am generally over senators as President really. I would want someone proven at operating and effective change in massive organizations or institutions.

I like Governors, Maybe Colin Powell or a progressive general or big city mayor even. Maybe even a business person, but it would have to be a business person with a public service record (bloomberg with a better record on the working class).

At this point I am more concern about effectiveness than progressiveness of goals.



**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

  

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PimpTrickGangstaClik
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48. "You're one of the few I've seen actually use the word support...."
In response to Reply # 9


          

when talking about Clinton.
You rarely see anyone support her. They kind of just default to her or settle for her.


_______________________________________

  

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SoWhat
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73. "i know more than one person who's excited about her as POTUS."
In response to Reply # 48


  

          

my mother is one of those ppl - she's a Black woman in her 60s.

a good homie is another - he's a Black man in his mid 30s.

and i see ppl at her rallies and shit, of course.

fuck you.

  

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PimpTrickGangstaClik
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104. "cool"
In response to Reply # 73


          

_______________________________________

  

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Damali
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132. "."
In response to Reply # 9


          

  

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Damali
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8. "the only people "deeply fucking problematic" are Trump & Cruz"
In response to Reply # 0


          

any issues Dems are having with Bernie or Hillary PALE in comparison.

y'all really gotta fucking understand that Republicans CANNOT take the White House and this Hill vs. Bern shit is what will seal it for them..then we're all fucked.

seriously this shit needs to stop y'all.

PERSPECTIVE.

D

  

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GOMEZ
Member since Feb 13th 2003
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11. "nah, Hillary vs. Bernie is fine. This is the time to do it"
In response to Reply # 8


  

          

it's a primary. that's what a primary is for. we argue about who would be a better president, pick our favorites, vote for our candidate, etc. It's been a pretty clean campaign on the dem side, all things considered. Bernie has been pushing Hillary on policy, which I'm all in favor of.

What needs to not happen is the 'i'm not voting for so and so if my candidate loses'. People need to be grown up.

In a generation of swine, the one-eyed pig is king.
-Hunter S. Thompson

  

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Damali
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12. "of course. i wasn't taking issue with that"
In response to Reply # 11


          

just trying to keep perspective around who is really "deeply fucking problematic"...it ain't that deep on the Dem side..

meanwhile, white people out here pushing and shoving and shouting on a Black teenager, in public, on camera in 2016. that shit ain't happening at Hillary Clinton rallies.

d

  

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no_i_cant_dance
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18. "Ashley Williams was assaulted by HRC supporters when they"
In response to Reply # 12


  

          

disrupted a HRC event & was later hauled out of the event by police/security...all b/c they confronted her w/ her own words/policies she supported. Also, that video of HRC being utterly dismissive to the comments of a young Black person was disgusting.

<<Mood...Poppy Okotcha in Look 1 at Ashish Fall 2016
________________________________________

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sa7KBq0q5bU

  

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murph71
Member since Sep 15th 2005
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21. "RE: Ashley Williams was assaulted by HRC supporters when they"
In response to Reply # 18
Wed Mar-02-16 02:00 PM by murph71

          


Chill....She was booed and hissed and escorted out at that HRC event....Civilian people in the audience were not laying hands on that girl....Totally different....

What makes that Trump rally crazy is THAT WASN'T SECURITY. That was a random Trump fan literally pushing a young girl. In fact she got pushed several times.

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

  

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no_i_cant_dance
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33. "U & DAMALI ARE CORRECT ABOUT ASHLEY, MY APOLOGIES DAMALI!"
In response to Reply # 21


  

          

I was wrong, y'all right. They were NOT physically assaulted by HRC supporters just called names & condescended to like you said. HRC was dismissive af to that other young Black person tho, that's on tape.

And I don't want to make it seem like I am trying to change the subject b/c let me be clear, I WAS WRONG AF ABOUT ASHLEY BEING ASSAULTED BY HRC SUPPORTERS @ the Charleston event, DAMALI RIGHT, YOU RIGHT.

The policies HRC advocated for & policy positions she has actually taken have harmed queer Black folks like Ashley & assaulted Black communities across the U.S. And the fact that there were HRC supporters attempting to silence them IS a form a violence imo.


Speaking of assaults @ Trump events, a white photog for a major news outlet was choke slammed (on video by security) for supposedly stepping outside of some designated zone for pictures.

<<Mood...Poppy Okotcha in Look 1 at Ashish Fall 2016
________________________________________

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sa7KBq0q5bU

  

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murph71
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37. "RE: U & DAMALI ARE CORRECT ABOUT ASHLEY, MY APOLOGIES DAMALI!"
In response to Reply # 33


          


>Speaking of assaults @ Trump events, a white photog for a
>major news outlet was choke slammed (on video by security) for
>supposedly stepping outside of some designated zone for
>pictures.


Shit is scary.....

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

  

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murph71
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28. "RE: Ashley Williams was assaulted by HRC supporters when they"
In response to Reply # 18
Wed Mar-02-16 02:13 PM by murph71

          

>disrupted a HRC event & was later hauled out of the event by
>police/security...all b/c they confronted her w/ her own
>words/policies she supported. Also, that video of HRC being
>utterly dismissive to the comments of a young Black person was
>disgusting.


Trump....

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

  

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murph71
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22. "RE: of course. i wasn't taking issue with that"
In response to Reply # 12
Wed Mar-02-16 02:03 PM by murph71

          

>just trying to keep perspective around who is really "deeply
>fucking problematic"...it ain't that deep on the Dem side..
>
>meanwhile, white people out here pushing and shoving and
>shouting on a Black teenager, in public, on camera in 2016.
>that shit ain't happening at Hillary Clinton rallies.


Meet the man doing MUCH of the pushing....His name is Matthew Heimbach (he's the guy in the red hat if u look up the video online). He's a staunch racist who has made racist comments about blacks and about anyone else...Here's just one of his Tweets:

‏@MatthewHeimbach
#JebBush dropping out after spending over $120 million is proof that normal White Americans are tired of Jewish approved politics as usual.

Trump supporter^^^^^

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

  

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rawsouthpaw
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30. ""deeply fucking problematic" is a PERFECT way to describe her"
In response to Reply # 12
Wed Mar-02-16 02:30 PM by rawsouthpaw

  

          

as a choice over sanders for president, as very thoroughly described here.

https://www.dailykos.com/story/2016/2/22/1489185/-The-Definitive-Encyclopedic-Case-For-Why-Hillary-Clinton-is-the-Wrong-Choice

ie wall street sell out, welfare reform, for-profit mass incarceration, mass death via iraq/libya/US imperalism, history of constant lying, bankruptcy bill, no child left behind, etc etc etc.

  

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SoWhat
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27. "yup"
In response to Reply # 11


  

          

fuck you.

  

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Atillah Moor
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17. "The woman who wanted to bring young black super-predators to heel"
In response to Reply # 8


  

          

is the better option?

______________________________________

Everything looks like Oprah kissing Harvey Weinstein these days

  

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Damali
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131. "than Donald or Ted Cruz? 1000 times yes."
In response to Reply # 17


          

it's also shitty to harp on something she said 20 years ago*. my general stance is it's good thing to allow people to grow and change, if they actually do. Has she? i think so. i think she's learned from that misstep and she seems to be making genuine efforts to continue learning. hell, that's more than most white people do

mind you, she is a bit too centrist and hawkish for my tastes, but i'm more thinking of the big picture here..who's more likely to beat Trump? Hillary. i'm by no means a "Hillary supporter"..nor am a i "Bernie Supporter". in this election i'm all about "keep them racists fucking Republicans out of the white house"

we'll deal with her shortcomings later.


d

*i mean some folks still mad at Tiger Woods for his "cablanasian" comment when he was 18

  

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SoWhat
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25. "the Hillary vs. Bernie thing is fine as long as supporters of either"
In response to Reply # 8


  

          

are willing to vote for the other in the general if that other wins the nomination. b/c as you said - the real differences between the 2 are minimal compared to the differences between them and Trump (or Cruz or Rubio).

we can't have ppl who voted for a Dem in their state's primary sitting at home in November b/c they mad their candidate didn't win the nomination.

fuck you.

  

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ambient1
Member since May 23rd 2007
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32. "In a weirdly optimistic sort of way i see this happening on the "
In response to Reply # 25


  

          

other side when Trump is the candidate

>>>we can't have ppl who voted for a Dem in their state's primary sitting at home in November b/c they mad their candidate didn't win the nomination.

=======================================
Coolin...

  

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SoWhat
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80. "i think so too."
In response to Reply # 32


  

          

fuck you.

  

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denny
Member since Apr 11th 2008
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42. "There's one distinction that makes this race different though."
In response to Reply # 25
Wed Mar-02-16 03:23 PM by denny

          

Bernie's critique of Hillary is actually in-line with Trump's. That's unusual.

Specifically....Bernie has been attacking her for campaign financing and the Iraq war. Usually that's a safe primary critique because it doesn't help the other side in the general. But in this case, Trump will ALSO attack Hillary on Iraq and campaign financing. So even though I think those attacks are legitimate....we'd be actually helping Trump's cause in continuing that line of attack.

  

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rob
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52. "for the party that claims to be nuanced/rational "
In response to Reply # 42


  

          

we don't seem to be handling these primaries well.

so what if *some* of bernie's critiques of hillary are similar to *some* of trump's critiques?

neither candidate is just a foil for hillary. they have their own distinct ideas about the country, and trumps ideas are why he would be a disaster.

we can't be afraid to go there...we need to recognize her vulnerabilities AND articulate why hillary is still, obviously, a much better choice than trump or cruz or rubio. ignoring them is a recipe for an increasingly irrelevant party moving forward.

  

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denny
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54. "I'm just pointing out that the same rules don't apply."
In response to Reply # 52
Wed Mar-02-16 04:11 PM by denny

          

Usually.....whatever Bernie's attack on Hillary is would be the opposite of what she would face in the general. That's how primaries usually work and for good reason. They shouldn't be designed to damage the nominee in the general. Because of the enigma of Trump...that's not the case here. Sanders (who I've supported) should adjust in light of that fact lest he does Trump's work for him.

Not to mention....the whole idea of pushing Hillary to the left is outta gas anyways. That only works when you are a threat....which Sanders WAS. He did push Hillary left....but now that she's got the insurmountable lead....she doesn't need to budge anymore.

It's a matter of being pragmatic. Any further attacks won't push Hillary left anymore so there's no benefit. There is, however, a cost in that they will be assisting Trump's line of attack (a weird scenario that is true nonetheless).


  

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rob
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72. "people are gonna talk about it, so we need to talk about it"
In response to Reply # 54


  

          

i don't get this angle at all. if we don't want to deal with hillary clinton's negatives in a general, we shouldn't have fucking settled for nominating hillary clinton.

they exist. it's our job to point out why she's STILL better, and why many of the Republican critiques are bullshit and unlike Bernie's critiques.

  

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SoWhat
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82. "'we'?"
In response to Reply # 42
Wed Mar-02-16 04:54 PM by SoWhat

  

          

can i see your US citizenship papers, player?

wtf is this 'we' shit?

fuck you.

  

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GOMEZ
Member since Feb 13th 2003
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10. "He's my dude, and I'll vote for him as long as I can"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

I'm voting for the candidate who most closely mirrors my view of the way the government should be run. I'm realistic, and if he's elected, i realize that we won't be some kind of democratic socialist utopia in 9 months. I do think he'll be more honest with the american people and push things in a direction that I'm in favor of.


All that being said, if it don't work out for Bern, I'll go ahead and vote for Hill. No need to give up until we actually count the scorecards, though.

In a generation of swine, the one-eyed pig is king.
-Hunter S. Thompson

  

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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
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53. "^^^^^"
In response to Reply # 10


          

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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rdhull
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14. "agree..folks falling for the Bernie as the new hope"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

  

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Atillah Moor
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15. "You have to understand the whole thing is manipulated to begin with"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Really look at how little the person running has to know about much of anything. Just look at Trump's success for that matter. Look at how black people in congress support those who in large part are against their own interests as black people. To expect anything good to come from such a massive pool of ignorance and superficial gesturing is pointless.

______________________________________

Everything looks like Oprah kissing Harvey Weinstein these days

  

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LAbeathustla
Member since Jan 24th 2004
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16. "this country has to take baby steps in either direction"
In response to Reply # 0
Wed Mar-02-16 01:38 PM by LAbeathustla

  

          

going extreme in either direction is least likely to happen

------------------------------------
2019 CABG Survivor

2016 OK Survivor Champion

be about it or be without it

RIP GOATs

  

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murph71
Member since Sep 15th 2005
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26. "I'm glad...."
In response to Reply # 0


          



...Bernie has been in the race. Hilldawg needed someone to move her even more progressive on the issues. I got no beef with Bernie. I hope he stays in for 3 more weeks or so....Just keep it clean and stay on message....

I just want some of his more fervent supporters to turn it down and chill with the bomb throwing...

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

  

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rawsouthpaw
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29. "the prospect of free higher ed if the youth continue mobilizing is huge"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

obama was way less radical and clear on truly progressive policies than sanders. debt and higher ed is a tangible carrot significant enough to drive mass movement. i think it is a moment that has the capability to be seized. inequality won't disappear with him losing but i think it will be an uglier fight for all if mostly has to happen in the streets than behind the momentum a sanders victory would present. occupy and BLM and the civil rights movement all have something to offer us in our respective roles. if we sit back and only vote then yeah, paralysis is guaranteed.

  

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My_SP1200_Broken_Again
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34. "i dont know whats worse..Trump supporters or auto Hillary voters.."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

< Live Mixshow - Thurs 11PM/EST >
https://twitch.tv/djchiefone

----Mixtape Archives-----
https://soundcloud.com/djchiefone

  

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murph71
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36. "RE: i dont know whats worse..Trump supporters or auto Hillary voters.."
In response to Reply # 34


          



How about Trump voters?

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

  

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GOMEZ
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38. "easy call. Trump supporters are the worst."
In response to Reply # 34


  

          

In a generation of swine, the one-eyed pig is king.
-Hunter S. Thompson

  

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My_SP1200_Broken_Again
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40. "They're worse, but they're unlikely to win him the election..."
In response to Reply # 38


  

          

.....the real threat is the uninformed Hilary auto voters that don't bother to do the research and dig a little on their own...that uninspired laziness is going to keep this country fucked in so many ways if she's elected.

< Live Mixshow - Thurs 11PM/EST >
https://twitch.tv/djchiefone

----Mixtape Archives-----
https://soundcloud.com/djchiefone

  

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murph71
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56. "RE: They're worse, but they're unlikely to win him the election..."
In response to Reply # 40


          



We HOPE they don't win him the election....

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

  

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Atillah Moor
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41. "Which side of a coin is worth more? Same answer different coin. "
In response to Reply # 34


  

          

______________________________________

Everything looks like Oprah kissing Harvey Weinstein these days

  

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stravinskian
Member since Feb 24th 2003
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44. "How many of us remember the "Gore is no better than Bush" talk?"
In response to Reply # 0


          


Because it was all over the place. I believed it at the time. It felt good, but it was fucking wrong, and I regretted it.

If you can't get excited to vote for Hillary Clinton, for fucks sake please get excited to vote against Donald Trump.

  

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My_SP1200_Broken_Again
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47. "I'll never vote for Hillary.... "
In response to Reply # 44


  

          

I'm not playing that game of chicken the establishment of the DNC is trying to run on us again... It's that "oh....you don't want a Republican to win now, do you? OK, Please vote for our corporate sell out candidate out of pure fear... Oh great, you did! Now we know that we can keep doing this every four years and you'll never leave" Now is the time to call their bluff... I won't support her ever

I won't support someone who voted for the Iraq War, the Patriot Act. Who's in bed with Wall Street, Big Pharm, the Prison Lobby, Monsanto, Big Energy.. Who's anti Cannabis legalization and thinks we "need more research" while keeping it schedule I so research will never get done.. Someone who has flip-flopped so many policies based on pure political gain.. Who's got a HORRIBLE record on foreign policy..

i'm not even bringing up the list of investigations regarding shady shit she's been involved with over the years..

NOPE.. not getting my vote.. sorry


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stravinskian
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51. "Yup, that's precisely the kind of talk."
In response to Reply # 47


          


It's fucking childish, it's so simplistic I don't even know where to start, and it will make the world a worse place. You are choosing to be completely, totally impotent.

  

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legsdiamond
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55. "it's not childish at all"
In response to Reply # 51


          

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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stravinskian
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57. "That's a matter of opinion,"
In response to Reply # 55


          


but at the very least we can say for sure that it elected George W. Bush, and it thereby CAUSED the Iraq war, along with a long list of other horrors.

  

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Atillah Moor
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59. "I thought all that hanging chad business elected GWB? "
In response to Reply # 57


  

          

______________________________________

Everything looks like Oprah kissing Harvey Weinstein these days

  

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stravinskian
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61. "You're misinformed."
In response to Reply # 59


          

  

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Atillah Moor
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65. "We all are. So there's no validity to the election being stolen? "
In response to Reply # 61


  

          

______________________________________

Everything looks like Oprah kissing Harvey Weinstein these days

  

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rawsouthpaw
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68. "a supreme court selection not an election."
In response to Reply # 65


  

          

  

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Atillah Moor
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88. "I stand corrected. "
In response to Reply # 68


  

          

______________________________________

Everything looks like Oprah kissing Harvey Weinstein these days

  

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murph71
Member since Sep 15th 2005
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75. "RE: I thought all that hanging chad business elected GWB? "
In response to Reply # 59


          



Supreme Court, homie...

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

  

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murph71
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60. "RE: That's a matter of opinion,"
In response to Reply # 57


          

>
>but at the very least we can say for sure that it elected
>George W. Bush, and it thereby CAUSED the Iraq war, along with
>a long list of other horrors.



^^^^^^^^

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

  

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My_SP1200_Broken_Again
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62. "lol, fear monger much?"
In response to Reply # 57


  

          

>but at the very least we can say for sure that it elected
>George W. Bush, and it thereby CAUSED the Iraq war, along with
>a long list of other horrors.


Hillary caused the war... her and her cronies on both sides CHOOSE to start that war...

meanwhile
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NdFw1btbkLM



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stravinskian
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70. "lol, misplace blame much?"
In response to Reply # 62


          


Being one vote out of 77 to authorize is VERY different from being the one who envisioned, planned, argued for, and carried out that war. The war would have happened WITHOUT the authorization, and the authorization would have happened WITHOUT her vote. So no, she did not cause the war.

And note that while Bernie Sanders may have voted correctly on that day, he DID NOT stop the war. He had empty rhetoric, and nothing else, which is the same as what he has today. If Al Gore had been President instead of George W Bush, that particular war would have never even been an idea.

  

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My_SP1200_Broken_Again
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92. "cant have it both ways fam..You blaming the US voters for Bush..."
In response to Reply # 70


  

          

>Being one vote out of 77 to authorize is VERY different from
>being the one who envisioned, planned, argued for, and carried
>out that war. The war would have happened WITHOUT the
>authorization, and the authorization would have happened
>WITHOUT her vote. So no, she did not cause the war.

She should have known better... if if she didn't, thats not the kind of person i want running this country.


>And note that while Bernie Sanders may have voted correctly on
>that day, he DID NOT stop the war. He had empty rhetoric, and
>nothing else, which is the same as what he has today. If Al
>Gore had been President instead of George W Bush, that
>particular war would have never even been an idea.

It's fun to make up scenarios in your head.. If Gore was president, the Giants would have won the Super Bowl that year too....fact is Bernie voted AGAINST the war.. Go watch that video again if you think its "empty rhetoric"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NdFw1btbkLM

^^^ you should be ashamed of yourself calling this "empty rhetoric"

and LOL @ the phrase "empty rhetoric" ...she just repeats that bullshit phrase over and over when addressing anything that she see's as an attack ..and you Hill Dawg bots just eat it up... sad






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stravinskian
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105. "Wait, so Sanders's speech had an effect on something?"
In response to Reply # 92


          


Tell me more.

I should be ashamed of myself for not being, what, emotionally stirred? By a speech that didn't have an effect on anything?

Yes. Empty rhetoric.

  

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kayru99
Member since Jan 26th 2004
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141. "so only votes that win, matter? "
In response to Reply # 105


          

  

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legsdiamond
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63. "..and Hillary voted to go to Iraq"
In response to Reply # 57


          

once the towers fell we were going to war regardless of who was in office.

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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stravinskian
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67. "RE: ..and Hillary voted to go to Iraq"
In response to Reply # 63


          

>once the towers fell we were going to war regardless of who
>was in office.

In Afghanistan. Not Iraq. Those were two different wars, remember, and Iraq had nothing to do with those towers. Iraq was entirely a Bush administration idea. As was the open-ended, undefined "war on terror."

  

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rob
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79. "but Hillary did vote to go into Iraq. "
In response to Reply # 67


  

          

It may have been a neocon idea, but both parties were complicit.

23 senators voted against it. Hillary and 28 other Democrats voted for it.

That's what's wrong with the party right there. It's all we've been saying in these posts.

  

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SoWhat
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85. "she voted for all of the wars and she's STILL a better choice"
In response to Reply # 79
Wed Mar-02-16 05:01 PM by SoWhat

  

          

than any of the GOP candidates who are likely to oppose her in the general election.

so i don't give a shit about her voting in favor of those wars even though i opposed those wars.

fuck you.

  

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rob
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91. "she's still a better choice, but she still voted for that shit"
In response to Reply # 85


  

          

it is not a trivial matter.

if people don't see a difference between the parties, it's because they're not different *enough* and not different in relevant ways.

and we're not asking for them to be exactly like us, we just would like them to take more responsibility for consistently being on the wrong side of history. give us faith that they will do better the next time they need to make those decisions.

that has way more to do with why the dems lost and are losing than a boogeyman like ralph fucking nader.

  

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SoWhat
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99. "sure."
In response to Reply # 91


  

          

fuck you.

  

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mrhood75
Member since Dec 06th 2004
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93. "Al Gore did it perfectly good job boning himself in the '00 election"
In response to Reply # 57


  

          

By you know, not running on his record because Dubya told him couldn't, not running on the environment, etc.

>but at the very least we can say for sure that it elected
>George W. Bush, and it thereby CAUSED the Iraq war, along with
>a long list of other horrors.

C'mon man, talk about "simplistic."

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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74. "I find this thinking completely and totally illogical. "
In response to Reply # 47
Wed Mar-02-16 04:50 PM by Buddy_Gilapagos

  

          

And what makes it so frustrating is we have a very recent example of the consequences of this thinking.

If a sufficient number of people who thought like you got off their ass and actually voted against Bush by voting for Gore (literally just a few thousand people in FL to be specific), there would be no Iraq War.


>I'm not playing that game of chicken the establishment of the
>DNC is trying to run on us again... It's that "oh....you don't
>want a Republican to win now, do you? OK, Please vote for
>our corporate sell out candidate out of pure fear... Oh great,
>you did! Now we know that we can keep doing this every four
>years and you'll never leave" Now is the time to call their
>bluff... I won't support her ever
>
>I won't support someone who voted for the Iraq War, the
>Patriot Act. Who's in bed with Wall Street, Big Pharm, the
>Prison Lobby, Monsanto, Big Energy.. Who's anti Cannabis
>legalization and thinks we "need more research" while keeping
>it schedule I so research will never get done.. Someone who
>has flip-flopped so many policies based on pure political
>gain.. Who's got a HORRIBLE record on foreign policy..
>
>i'm not even bringing up the list of investigations regarding
>shady shit she's been involved with over the years..
>
>NOPE.. not getting my vote.. sorry
>
>
>


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

  

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SoWhat
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78. "it's only acceptable from ppl too young to recall the 2000 election."
In response to Reply # 74


  

          

fuck you.

  

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Mansa Musa
Member since Feb 16th 2009
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Wed Mar-02-16 05:21 PM

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98. "Gore was a weak candidate who couldn't carry his home state"
In response to Reply # 78


          

  

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SoWhat
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100. "uh huh."
In response to Reply # 98


  

          

fuck you.

  

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rob
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69. "The problem I have"
In response to Reply # 44


  

          

is we went from Gore/Bush to Clinton/Extreme-Republican-Nominee. The whole country generally is sliding right in terms of candidate options.

I've spent most of my life in Texas. I live in a community that is about 85% POC. Because of gerrymandering and a lack of faith in Democrats, every one of our representatives at the state and national level is a Republican. Most of our local officials are also Republican.

We went from Anne Richards to George Bush to Rick Perry to Greg Abbott as the leader of our state. We've gone from Lloyd Bensten to Ted Cruz. It's a huge change, and it's been a persistent shift right. As unhappy as I was about it as a teenager, I'd be THRILLED to have W and Bob Bullock running the show in Austin right now.

The Republican nominee is going to be way to the right of Dubya. Hillary is to the right of where Gore would be by now. This didn't happen because of leakage to Nader or Greens or Socialists. It happened because of what the major parties decided they wanted to be, and how leaders in these parties listened to/ignored their electorates.

The center/right Democrat platform, legitimately, is a non-seller. It's built to cater to voters who largely don't exist any more, or those who vote Republican.

The Latinos who actually vote in Texas are voting for these Republicans too. John Cornyn went from 36% in 2008 to getting more Latino votes than the Democrat in 2014. The DNC doesn't have a game plan. We are on the cusp of losing a generation, and we're not doing anything about it because the DNC plays demographics instead of leading.

We shouldn't be judged because we don't like voting for that. Especially when many, perhaps most of us, are going to suck it up and vote for Hillary anyway. We're not the problem with the party.

  

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stravinskian
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89. "You seem to be neglecting the possibility,"
In response to Reply # 69


          

that the candidates are moving to the right because the ELECTORATE is moving to the right. That's not to say that the PEOPLE are moving to the right, but the people who show up to vote are moving to the right. The electorate can move to the right even if the people move left, if the right side gets more passionate while the left side gets more passive and self-destructive. No this isn't a Nader thing, but Nader was a symptom. When a party is (according to popular conception) in power, its supporters get complacent and allow more infighting. This happened to Democrats near the end of the Clinton years, to Republicans near the end of the Bush years, and it's happening to Democrats again at the end of the Obama years. And when a party is (according to popular conception) OUT of power, then they will put more of their infighting aside and unite for what they consider to be the common good. We saw this with the Gingrich revolution in the Clinton years, the Obama insurgency at the end of the Bush years, and the Tea Party in the Obama years.

The parties don't just "decide what they want to be." The electorate SHOWS the parties how to get votes, and thereby, how to survive. If nobody will show up for single-payer healthcare, then no party in its right mind would jump directly to single-payer healthcare.

That said, I firmly reject the idea that Hillary is to the right of Al Gore. On the issues Hillary is identical to Barack Obama, Al Gore, and in terms of goals even Bernie Sanders. The broad outlines of Bernie's policy proposals are the same as the broad outlines of Hillary's proposals. The only differences are in the details, and that's only because the Sanders campaign hasn't taken the time to spell out any of those details.

  

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rob
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103. "This is why so many of us are so anti Hillary and Trump though"
In response to Reply # 89


  

          

>that the candidates are moving to the right because the
>ELECTORATE is moving to the right. That's not to say that the
>PEOPLE are moving to the right, but the people who show up to
>vote are moving to the right. The electorate can move to the
>right even if the people move left, if the right side gets
>more passionate while the left side gets more passive and
>self-destructive. No this isn't a Nader thing, but Nader was a
>symptom. When a party is (according to popular conception) in
>power, its supporters get complacent and allow more
>infighting. This happened to Democrats near the end of the
>Clinton years, to Republicans near the end of the Bush years,
>and it's happening to Democrats again at the end of the Obama
>years. And when a party is (according to popular conception)
>OUT of power, then they will put more of their infighting
>aside and unite for what they consider to be the common good.
>We saw this with the Gingrich revolution in the Clinton years,
>the Obama insurgency at the end of the Bush years, and the Tea
>Party in the Obama years.
>
>The parties don't just "decide what they want to be." The
>electorate SHOWS the parties how to get votes, and thereby,
>how to survive. If nobody will show up for single-payer
>healthcare, then no party in its right mind would jump
>directly to single-payer healthcare.

You're only talking about elections that have happened in a framework where the right has control of the electorate. That's my whole point. By following voters, parties have shifted right. It's going to take a re-articulation and re-definition of politics to reverse that trend.

Hillary and Trump take your point to extremes. Their strategy is 100% tell the voters what they want to hear. It's not a good thing.

Even in the cyclical examples you've mentioned, we've been working under the assumption that Republicans get what they want legislatively until they REALLY fuck up, and then the Dems get maybe 2 years to try to do something, but in most cases they don't because they're afraid of losing the next election.

The current alignment is not permanent, but the DNC acts like it is. That's a failure in leadership and articulating a platform. it's what happens when you take politics one election at a time.

>That said, I firmly reject the idea that Hillary is to the
>right of Al Gore. On the issues Hillary is identical to Barack
>Obama, Al Gore, and in terms of goals even Bernie Sanders. The
>broad outlines of Bernie's policy proposals are the same as
>the broad outlines of Hillary's proposals. The only
>differences are in the details, and that's only because the
>Sanders campaign hasn't taken the time to spell out any of
>those details.
>

Al Gore went out of his way to endorse an anti-war candidate in 2004. He would not be nearly as pro-corporate as Hillary is. He would have been more aggressive about issues like the Keystone XL pipeline than Hillary (and Obama) have been. That's not to say that they aren't mostly the same, but yes, definitely, she is to the right of Al Gore.

  

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stravinskian
Member since Feb 24th 2003
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107. "RE: This is why so many of us are so anti Hillary and Trump though"
In response to Reply # 103


          


>You're only talking about elections that have happened in a
>framework where the right has control of the electorate.

I'm not sure what you mean by that. You're saying the right had control of the electorate in 2008?

>That's my whole point. By following voters, parties have
>shifted right. It's going to take a re-articulation and
>re-definition of politics to reverse that trend.

Meaning, moving away from democracy? I'm not trying to insinuate anything here about what you're saying; I honestly don't understand what you're getting at. Aren't the voters SUPPOSED to be in charge?

>Hillary and Trump take your point to extremes. Their strategy
>is 100% tell the voters what they want to hear. It's not a
>good thing.
>
>Even in the cyclical examples you've mentioned, we've been
>working under the assumption that Republicans get what they
>want legislatively until they REALLY fuck up, and then the
>Dems get maybe 2 years to try to do something, but in most
>cases they don't because they're afraid of losing the next
>election.

No, the only reason GW Bush got more time than most was because 9/11 complicated the normal state of politics.

Besides, W didn't always get what he wanted. Remember when he tried to privatize Social Security? Bush held both houses of Congress at the time and it still turned into a disaster for him.

I think a lot of the time we forget how often the OTHER side is powerless. We only carry the scars from our own losses.

>The current alignment is not permanent, but the DNC acts like
>it is. That's a failure in leadership and articulating a
>platform. it's what happens when you take politics one
>election at a time.
>
>>That said, I firmly reject the idea that Hillary is to the
>>right of Al Gore. On the issues Hillary is identical to
>Barack
>>Obama, Al Gore, and in terms of goals even Bernie Sanders.
>The
>>broad outlines of Bernie's policy proposals are the same as
>>the broad outlines of Hillary's proposals. The only
>>differences are in the details, and that's only because the
>>Sanders campaign hasn't taken the time to spell out any of
>>those details.
>>
>
>Al Gore went out of his way to endorse an anti-war candidate
>in 2004.

An anti-war candidate who, by the way, is currently endorsing Hillary Clinton.

>He would not be nearly as pro-corporate as Hillary
>is.

How, exactly, is she "pro-corporate"? Saying she's taken campaign contributions from the same sources as Barack Obama, John Kerry, and Al Gore, would not be a good answer.

>He would have been more aggressive about issues like the
>Keystone XL pipeline than Hillary (and Obama) have been.

Maybe but the Keystone pipeline has always been a silly issue.

>That's not to say that they aren't mostly the same, but yes,
>definitely, she is to the right of Al Gore.

I still don't see it. At any rate, whatever difference there may be is negligible compared to the difference with Donald Trump or George W Bush.

  

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rob
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122. "i typed up a point by point thing but it seems pretty useless"
In response to Reply # 107


  

          

we don't have large disagreements, and we'll all likely vote the same in the fall, but i think the disdain early hillary voters show for other perspectives in the party is dangerous.

i hope y'all are putting in the same amount of work trying to convince non-democrats to vote democrat in november and 2018 as you are trying to get bernie supporters to move on.

  

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Ted Gee Seal
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108. "Agreed."
In response to Reply # 89


  

          

I bet Obama would have run and governed more progressively if he thought he could het away with it.

Democracy is a grind for incremental gains to try to pull a country in the best direction, especially for those on the left. But the left is so busy playing moral high horse with itself (and dealing with the blue collar Bernie Bro faction which exists in many countries on the left) that it doesn't unite effectively and loses the opportunity to govern and more importantly mobilise to motivate non voters and persuade those in the middle and moderate right.

Just IMO though.

  

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rob
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113. "the difference between the right and the left"
In response to Reply # 108


  

          

isn't that the left is fighting over moral high ground

because the right is certainly doing that, and it's a mess.

it's that the right is consistently on message about the principals that establish that high ground. it is very effective.

  

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stravinskian
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120. "If that were true Rick Santorum would have won a nomination. "
In response to Reply # 113


          


Trump isn't on message about basic conservative principles. He's out there talking about how Planned Parenthood does a lot of good. Trump is reminding the Republicans of the enormous power of triangulation. George W Bush did the same (compassionate conservative and all that). They win by being willing and able to play the game.

  

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rob
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123. "1) you're ignoring how this is working everywhere but the presidency"
In response to Reply # 120


  

          

2) you're ignoring the donald trump winning by beating other republicans at being on message. make america great again, immigration/trutherism, faux-christianity, harping on roberts.

trump has run for president many times. he's only getting traction now because he's bullshitting his way through the republican messaging. which shows you how powerful it is.

(he's only gone loud on pp and iraq recently because he's trying to pivot center for the general. he's exploiting messaging...he's a parasite)

3) you're ignoring that cruz is currently trump's biggest competition after months of posts from you and others proclaiming the viability of moderates like jeb, kasich, and rubio.

  

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stravinskian
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127. "RE: 1) you're ignoring how this is working everywhere but the presidency"
In response to Reply # 123


          

On point (1), yeah, I'll admit that. Local politics is a different game, because the electorate is more homogeneous on a local level. That's why people like Dennis Kucinich, Ted Cruz, Bernie Sanders, people who could never build a national coalition, can still win local and statewide elections.

>2) you're ignoring the donald trump winning by beating other
>republicans at being on message. make america great again,
>immigration/trutherism, faux-christianity, harping on roberts.

They are all perfectly on-message, but they have different messages. Trump's message doesn't involve any conservative principles, just a right-wing attitude.

>trump has run for president many times. he's only getting
>traction now because he's bullshitting his way through the
>republican messaging. which shows you how powerful it is.
>
>(he's only gone loud on pp and iraq recently because he's
>trying to pivot center for the general. he's exploiting
>messaging...he's a parasite)

Well, he was talking about Iraq from the very beginning. He's also been away from the Tea-Party brand on eminent domain for a long time.

>3) you're ignoring that cruz is currently trump's biggest
>competition after months of posts from you and others
>proclaiming the viability of moderates like jeb, kasich, and
>rubio.

Cruz isn't really competition. He's a base candidate. That means, he's competition in a primary election, but he'd be doomed in a general election. Cruz is just as unelectable as Sanders is, and for precisely the same reason: that a majority of the electorate considers him an extremist. In the super Tuesday thread, Mynoriti and I were laughing about the fact that Trump's only serious competition was turning out to be the only guy in the race even less electable than him.

When people like me have brought up Kasich and Rubio (I don't think anyone was ever afraid of Jeb), it's been about the fact that IF they won the nomination, they'd be VERY formidable general election candidates. They are the Hillaries of that side. Cruz is the Bernie of that side. The old cliche is that "Democrats fall in love, Republicans fall in line." Thankfully, that pattern has reversed this time. It's been gratifying, and entertaining, to see the Republicans allow their emotions to torpedo their general-election chances, while the Democrats appear to have avoided that fate.

  

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Ted Gee Seal
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124. "I'm not talking about the difference between two parties"
In response to Reply # 113


  

          

I'm talking about what is happening, and the arguments between the left about who is better between Clinton and Sanders and threatening not to vote is very much an argument about moral high ground. It's certainly not about pragmatism.

Just IMO though.

  

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SoWhat
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76. "i voted for Nader. LOL"
In response to Reply # 44


  

          

in Illinois - a state Gore won.

but yeah...i fell for that talk, clearly. i won't ever make that mistake again. i learned my lesson.

fuck you.

  

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mrhood75
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86. "Thought it was bullshit back then. Voted for Nader anyway. In California"
In response to Reply # 44


  

          

This time around, I'm voting for Bernie in the primaries. And I'll probably write him in the GE too. Because I live in California.

If it looks like Hilary needs my vote to carry California in the General Election, I'll vote for her. But if Hilary needs my vote in the General Election to carry California, she's already fucked, and isn't going to win this thing anyway.

Good thing she's winning this thing anyway.

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Mynoriti
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94. "Sounds about right"
In response to Reply # 86


  

          

>This time around, I'm voting for Bernie in the primaries. And
>I'll probably write him in the GE too. Because I live in
>California.
>
>If it looks like Hilary needs my vote to carry California in
>the General Election, I'll vote for her. But if Hilary needs
>my vote in the General Election to carry California, she's
>already fucked, and isn't going to win this thing anyway.

  

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Cenario
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45. "i'm not into politics at all, but this seems like the worst collection o..."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

candidates ever

-The Knicks’ coaching search still includes a lone frontrunner, Kurt Rambis, whose qualifications for the position include a strong relationship with Jackson and a willingness to take the job.

  

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denny
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49. "On the contrary."
In response to Reply # 45


          

Bernie is probably the best candidate of the modern era if you believe in social justice, income equality and people over corporations.

It's his viability that most people have a problem with.

  

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Atillah Moor
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58. "And what do the people in congress believe? Not that."
In response to Reply # 49


  

          

______________________________________

Everything looks like Oprah kissing Harvey Weinstein these days

  

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denny
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64. "So....."
In response to Reply # 58


          

that means it's IMPOSSIBLE to have a promising candidate. Because no matter WHO it is.....it won't matter because of congress.

A little too self-defeating imo. One thing at a time. A socialist president is a step towards a more civil society. But that ship has sailed anyways so......

  

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Atillah Moor
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95. "Doesn't matter because of congress pretty much sums it up."
In response to Reply # 64


  

          

______________________________________

Everything looks like Oprah kissing Harvey Weinstein these days

  

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My_SP1200_Broken_Again
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66. "most of congress is bought & paid for by special intrest groups"
In response to Reply # 58


  

          

http://www.cheatsheet.com/business/these-20-special-interest-groups-are-flooding-congress-with-cash.html/?a=viewall


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SoWhat
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83. "i don't have time to travel to DC to lobby my congressppl."
In response to Reply # 66


  

          

so i'm glad there are groups out there lobbying Congress on my behalf. b/c i ain't got time or interest.

fuck you.

  

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My_SP1200_Broken_Again
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97. "jesus christ"
In response to Reply # 83


  

          

http://i.imgur.com/iWKad22.jpg





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SoWhat
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101. "*shrugs*"
In response to Reply # 97


  

          

fuck you.

  

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Cenario
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112. "Maybe so, but the candidates I hear the most about are hilarious and"
In response to Reply # 49


  

          

Trump.

What you just said about Bernie was more than I knew about him prior. All I knew about him before was that he look old and feeble.

-The Knicks’ coaching search still includes a lone frontrunner, Kurt Rambis, whose qualifications for the position include a strong relationship with Jackson and a willingness to take the job.

  

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denny
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126. "Honestly...."
In response to Reply # 112


          

One Bernie critique is that he's trying to turn the States into a European-like country. Which is kinda true.

Don't be fooled by the 'Bernie is trying to dismantle what Obama tried to do'. Bernie is trying to go FURTHER than Obama. Health care for all. Corporate taxes. Social programs. Better welfare programs. Basically...the same shit that all other rich countries have.

As an outsider...it's really frusterating to hear leftist Americans doubt that those things are possible. You guys are literally surrounded by other countries that offer these things. When my daughter was born I was shit poor and 20 years old. They gave me a card that could be used anywhere in the country for ANY health issues that may occur....FOR FREE. We had 12 months of mat leave (nation-wide) that our companies are forced to pay. I can't emphasize enough how big a difference these kind of things make in the quality of your life. And even the LEFTISTS in America think they're 'unrealistic'.

In Canada, if we notice Australia has implemented a social program that seems to be working....we say 'hey, we should try that too'. But there's some sort of nationalistic pride that is drilled into Americans from birth that you can't take ideas from other countries. Even amongst the left. How convenient for the 1%.

  

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stravinskian
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128. "My problem with Bernie"
In response to Reply # 126


          

is more that he doesn't actually have a plan for any of this. I'm flabbergasted by the way people are saying he's good on these issues, because he doesn't actually have any proposals for them. Whenever anyone asks him how he'd get these things done, all he can muster is "we'll get millions of the American people to finally make their voices heard." This was far-fetched from the very beginning, and it's gotten a hell of a lot more so as he's failed gain support even among the party that's naturally supportive of the proposals.

Look at health care. It's not just crony capitalism that's stopped us from implementing a European-style system. Health care is (last I heard) one-seventh of our economy. That is to say, something on the order of a seventh of all Americans would have their livelihoods completely upset if we tried jumping directly into a single-payer system. The European countries generally took the chance to do it shortly after the war, at a time when their economies were already in disarray.

Now Canada (you obviously know this history better than I do but I'll give it a shot) is not, fundamentally, a European-style system. And this is related to the fact that they implemented their system at a time when they couldn't risk as much upset to their economy. The medical providers are not employees of the government, as they are in, for example, the British NHS. The Canadian health services are generally private, it's essentially an insurance system that is government-run and taxpayer-funded. Moreover, this system wasn't invented in one fell swoop of socialistic frenzy. It grew slowly over decades from separate province-level systems.

We are implementing the same kind of system in America. It's been held up, as we've all seen. But this is the "public option" that we were forced to remove from Obamacare to get it to pass. Obamacare has substantially re-regulated the health insurance system, improving coverage, slowing rate inflation, and banning discrimination over pre-existing conditions. But obviously it's still not as good as a single-payer system. But we still want a public option, we're still fighting for it, it's still in the party platform, and it's still something that Hillary publicly supports. The Republicans fought the public option tooth-and-nail because (as they openly admitted in many cases at the time) it would work so much better than for-profit health insurance that it would push the private players out of the market and we'd end up with a de-facto single-payer plan. I agree wholeheartedly, and so would any mainstream Democrat not trying to nuance a voter too afraid of "socialism" to realize that if the government can do it better than the private sector, then the government should be doing it.

"Medicare for all" is not a plan, it's a slogan.

Working to add the public option back into Obamacare, and then relying on empirical data (including the historical success in Canada) that this would naturally move the nation toward a system functionally equivalent to Canada's system. That is a plan.

  

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MiracleRic
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142. "there are working models for how to do what he's proposing though"
In response to Reply # 128


  

          

so him having those proposals ready during the mobilization phase really shouldn't be that surprising

Let me sport my Air Hyperbole 2010s in peace. (c) ansomble

Building repetoires (c) spm since 1983

  

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rob
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71. "someone on tv last night said"
In response to Reply # 45


  

          

whoever we elect might automatically have the lowest favorability ratings of any president-elect ever.

we probably haven't seen anything like this since the mid-1800s. is that where the fuck we are? that's depressing.

  

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mrhood75
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134. "The 2012 GOP slate was every bit the clown car as this one"
In response to Reply # 45


  

          

Trump and the sheer number of candidates in the beginning just skews the perception, but 2012 featured: Herman Cain, Michelle Bachman, Santorum's first run, Rick Perry's first run, and Newt Gingrich. Just Cain and Bachman alone are every bit as ridiculous as candidates like Carson.

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Mynoriti
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136. "Nah. 2012 debates didn't literally look like Jerry Springer episdoes"
In response to Reply # 134


  

          

and for all the goofy antics, people like Bachman, and Cain didn't last more than a couple of weeks on top once everyone had a closer look, they moved on.

The Trump era is a very new phenomenon. The bar is definitely lower.


  

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Binlahab
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50. "aka I have no hope and refuse to even try."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Give me the devil I know because reaching too far and failing is not OK

  

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SoWhat
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77. "sure, yeah."
In response to Reply # 50


  

          

that.

fuck you.

  

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rawsouthpaw
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81. "Democratic Party superdelegates are undemocratic"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          





http://www.cnn.com/2016/02/23/opinions/superdelegates-democratic-party-kohn/


Democratic Party superdelegates are undemocratic
By Sally Kohn, CNN Political Commentator
Updated 3:02 PM ET, Tue February 23, 2016


Sally Kohn is an activist, columnist and television commentator. Follow her on Twitter: @sallykohn. The opinions expressed in this commentary are solely those of the author.

(CNN)You might think, from their title, that superdelegates are better than regular delegates.

Actually, they're worse.

The process for presidential elections in the United States is governed by the Constitution. Primary elections, however, are not. They are controlled by the political parties themselves. In fact, until the 1820s, members of Congress chose the presidential nominee for each party. That elitist system started to buckle with the advent of national conventions, though delegates were still selected through state and local convention processes controlled by the parties.

It wasn't until the mid-1900s that parties embraced primary elections as part of the process for deciding on presidential candidates. But to ensure that the voters themselves didn't have all the power, in 1982 the Democratic Party adopted what are called superdelegates, who today control 15% of the final nomination process.

Sally Kohn
Sally Kohn
The Republican Party has superdelegates, too, but they have a lot less power. GOP superdelegates are only about 7% of the nominating vote, and according to Republican convention rules, superdelegates must vote in accordance with their state primary outcomes.

It's in the Democratic Party that the outsized power and lack of accountability of superdelegates is supremely, well, undemocratic.

Specifically, after the Democratic caucuses in Nevada, CNN estimated that Hillary Clinton and Bernie Sanders were almost tied for pledged delegates, with 52 and 51 of them, respectively. And yet Clinton was leading by a much wider margin in the total delegate count because a whopping 445 superdelegates -- out of a total of 712 -- pledged to support her. By comparison, just 18 superdelegates pledged to support Sanders.

In other words, while Clinton and Sanders were almost perfectly split in the tally of voter-determined delegates, superdelegates threw their weight behind Clinton by an almost 25-to-1 ratio.

Any liberal who has ever been at a protest march for social justice has heard the popular chant: "This is what democracy looks like!" Well, superdelegates are definitely not what democracy looks like. Anything but.

Is primary 'rigged' against Bernie Sanders?

Is primary 'rigged' against Bernie Sanders? 01:37
So here's where it gets really interesting: In the 2008 Democratic primary, by at least some measures, more people actually voted for Clinton than for Barack Obama. But because of the way pledged delegates are counted and because Obama's team led an effort early on to lock down superdelegates, the math ultimately favored Obama, and Clinton dropped out. Clinton, in turn, learned not to dismantle the superdelegate system but to better play it, hiring the architect of Obama's superdelegate strategy to marshal hers this time around. And so fans of Sanders -- as well as, presumably, fans of democratic participation in general -- have launched efforts to call on superdelegates to reflect the will of the voters they represent and promise to support whichever candidate their state voters back. One such petition by MoveOn.org, has over 179,000 signatures. Another similar petition has almost 200,000 signatures.

Not so fast, says the Democratic Party. The uproar about superdelegates started after the New Hampshire primary. Sanders won 60% of the vote and, therefore, 15 of the state's pledged delegates. Clinton won just nine delegates. But nonetheless, Sanders and Clinton remained tied vis-a-vis New Hampshire delegates because six of the state's eight superdelegates backed Clinton.

CNN's Jake Tapper asked Democratic National Committee Chairwoman Debbie Wasserman Schultz why the Democratic Party would embrace such a plainly undemocratic process. Here's what she said:

"Unpledged delegates exist really to make sure that party leaders and elected officials don't have to be in a position where they are running against grassroots activists."

In other words, the Democratic Party's superdelegates exist to preserve the power and influence of the Democratic Party's elite. Well that makes perfect sense -- if you're, say, the inherently elitist, pro-big business, rich Republican Party. But not if you're supposed to be the party that protects the interests of regular Americans.

And sure, there's an argument to be made that both parties should have a fail-safe way to prevent the sort of cataclysmic disaster of the kind Donald Trump is creating by becoming the GOP nominee. But democracy is democracy, folks. We're supposed to stand by the process even if we don't like the outcome.

According to a new poll, nearly one in three Trump supporters in South Carolina supports banning gay people from entering the United States. That's horrifying. But the Republican Party has to reckon with those voters -- and the way in which Republican policies and rhetoric over the last several decades have given succor and solace to those views. Sweeping them under the rug via a superdelegate trouncing would be convenient but wrong.

Most of us know the quotes about democracy being messy or imperfect or the worst form of government except for all the others. Here's another quote: "Democracy is beautiful in theory; in practice it is a fallacy." That one comes from Mussolini, who was a fascist, and, perhaps if he were alive today, would be a superdelegate.

  

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murph71
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106. "RE: Democratic Party superdelegates are undemocratic"
In response to Reply # 81


          




lol.....

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

  

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Mynoriti
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84. "i love Bernie. Too many of his supporters have become ridiculous"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

It's like they're not even trying to sell his message anymore. It's 5% Bernie's vision, and 95% how Hillary Clinton is the most awful human being to ever walk the earth.

Last few months it's evolved into a "either you're with us or with the terrorists" mindset.

I don't blame him for any of it though. He's been a class act.

  

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mrhood75
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87. "I really think that's a function of "people on the Internet are obnoxiou..."
In response to Reply # 84


  

          

And I really doubt that many of Bernie's supporters are actually like that.

I don't judge anyone's fanbase by what's represented on the Internet. I think how supporters act in "real" life settings are a better indication. Which is why I have no problem labeling the majority of Trump supporters as morons.

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Mynoriti
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90. "True that. I have a couple friends doing it though"
In response to Reply # 87
Wed Mar-02-16 05:11 PM by Mynoriti

  

          

but they stay on reddit and will read shit off to me randomly... "Dude, did you see what Hillary said in 1974??"

I get it, fuck lol.

  

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mrhood75
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96. "Oh, I've certainly got them on my FB timeline as well."
In response to Reply # 90


  

          

But I've also got the obnoxious Hilary-Stans and the "Bernie isn't a true socialist" types. I ignore them all.

-----------------

www.albumism.com

Checkin' Our Style, Return To Zero:

https://www.mixcloud.com/returntozero/

  

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Mynoriti
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102. "ha. i don't think i have either one of these"
In response to Reply # 96


  

          

i have a boy who describes himself as a marxist but i haven't asked him about Bernie. As for Hillary, i don't know anyone riding hard for her like that. My mom and her friends want her, but they're ok with Bernie as well. Mostly it's just people who recognize she's whatever, but will definitely vote for her.

I do have some Trump/Cruz people. and plenty of Bernie lol.

>But I've also got the obnoxious Hilary-Stans and the "Bernie
>isn't a true socialist" types. I ignore them all.

  

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Vex_id
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119. "This also is fascinating to me."
In response to Reply # 84


          

The notion that you wouldn't consider voting for a candidate because of a segment of his supporters is peculiar. Every politician has annoying, caustic supporters - but the supporters aren't running to be President, Bernie Sanders is.

It seems to me that there needs to be criticism and analysis on the actual candidate - Bernie Sanders - in order to logically make a case as to why he doesn't warrant your support. Conversely, I see a lot of whining about the so-called unfair attacks that progressives are launching at Clinton. Yes, there are some who are being unfair with regards to Clinton, but the lion-share of the Progressive criticism of her (from the likes of Robert Reich and Michelle Alexander) are based on substantive grounds and verifiable records - whereas I hear a lot of people here and elsewhere criticizing Sanders because of some of his obnoxious supporters. Not the strongest logic.



-->

  

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Mynoriti
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121. "Where did i say anything about my vote?"
In response to Reply # 119


  

          

Or that I would be basing my vote on supporters?


  

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Vex_id
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109. "I can't fuck with healthy food."
In response to Reply # 0


          

I'm sure it's good for my body - but I'm so tired of all these IG fitness enthusiasts showing off and unattainable photos in fitness magazines promoting physiques that most people will never attain....

A lot of my friends eat healthy, whole diets - some even eat plant-based diets citing ethical concerns about treatment of animals and global warming/environmental concerns associated with industrial animal farming.

I'm not 100% for fast-food, but I'm probably going to just eat it because i'm so tired of the optimists who think that they can overpower the processed foods industry.

-->

  

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SoWhat
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110. "I can't be snarked into supporting any candidate for political office."
In response to Reply # 109
Wed Mar-02-16 07:01 PM by SoWhat

  

          

I'm not going to base my vote on losing some internet argument with a disagreeable, surly stranger. There is no clever or pithy statement from anyone that will change my vote.

fuck you.

  

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Vex_id
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111. "k. "
In response to Reply # 110


          


-->

  

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RaFromQueens
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Wed Mar-02-16 06:44 PM

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114. "Congratulations you're an obtuse dick nm "
In response to Reply # 110


  

          

---
"People that need positivity around them all the time are weak individuals in my book" - @lilduval

  

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SoWhat
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117. "Thanks. "
In response to Reply # 114


  

          

I try real hard.

fuck you.

  

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RaFromQueens
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115. "If you don't vote for Bernie Sanders and you're a progressive?"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

You don't get to complain about the establishment ever again. You can't be mad at the status quo because that's what you opted for. You don't get to complain about the options on the left being too much in th middle or even to the right.

I mean, you still will, but you'll be responsible ya dirty old bitch (c)

---
"People that need positivity around them all the time are weak individuals in my book" - @lilduval

  

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Frank Longo
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125. "Keep in mind that I'm a Bernie voter, but..."
In response to Reply # 115


  

          

... if someone prefers Hillary's plan to Bernie's plan, votes consistently in local, state, and federal elections for Democratic candidates, and urges all of his or her friends and family to vote Democrat in all elections as well?

That person is doing a hundred times more for the possibility of actual progress than all of the people I see saying that they'll stay home if Bernie doesn't get the nom, holding their vote hostage.

Bernie won't fix things by himself. Hillary won't fix things by herself. Progress is won at local, state, federal levels, with congressmen, mayors, governors, Senators, local and state judges, etc.

I really don't like this mind set of "IF YOU DON'T DO THIS YOU MUST HATE THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY" that I've seen on *both* sides of the fence (though admittedly more on Bernie's). It's the type of reductive narrative that causes people to develop savior complexes over presidential candidates in the first place.

My movies: http://russellhainline.com
My movie reviews: https://letterboxd.com/RussellHFilm/
My beer TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@thebeertravelguide

  

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Ted Gee Seal
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129. "^^^^^^^^^^^^"
In response to Reply # 125


  

          


>Bernie won't fix things by himself. Hillary won't fix things
>by herself. Progress is won at local, state, federal levels,
>with congressmen, mayors, governors, Senators, local and state
>judges, etc.
>

It's a grind, it's slow and incremental. Sanders isn't the person who makes or breaks the movement. It's the lack of mobilisation across the board.

Just IMO though.

  

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RaFromQueens
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130. "The difference is too stark for me to buy that. "
In response to Reply # 125


  

          

Not only do I not believe HRC's recently acquired taste for more left-leaning policies, I don't believe her to be a progressive. Her husband's presidency doesn't sit right (left) with me and neither do her efforts as a senator to score points and make her case for a better job.

Basically, if Hillary and Bernie propose a similar policy, or even the same policy, I have no inclination to believe her. I love BHO irrationally, but he has unfortunately left truisms, like "political realities" or "evolving positions", that I think would allow a dishonest successor to be slippery with their promises.

You can fault Bernie Sanders for naivety, but that concedes he's earnest. You could say he wouldn't get enough done, but that means we **know** what he would try to do. HRC supporters love to say she would get stuff done even with extreme opposition. They're predicting her selling them out.

Democrats were so thrilled about winning the White House back in 1992 they didn't much care where Clinton was on the death penalty or that he broke the safety nets for the poor in a way republicans could only envy. Now I'm supposed to vote for Hillary because what's best for America is a president with a (D) next to their name? Fool me once ya can't get fooled again (c)

---
"People that need positivity around them all the time are weak individuals in my book" - @lilduval

  

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Frank Longo
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137. "Funny that you're talking about stark differences."
In response to Reply # 130


  

          

If the difference is between Hillary and Trump, the differences are roughly 197298572948562459874 times more stark than the ones between Hillary and Bernie.

And you also ignored the central point that I made: it doesn't come down to one person. It comes down to Houses and Senates being in Democratic majority. It comes down to state governments winning Democratic votes. And on top of that, yes, a Democratic president to work with Democratic bodies at the state and federal levels.

My movies: http://russellhainline.com
My movie reviews: https://letterboxd.com/RussellHFilm/
My beer TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@thebeertravelguide

  

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RaFromQueens
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138. "I have no way of knowing the difference between 2 unknown* quantities."
In response to Reply # 137


  

          

Thanks for not reading.

*unreliable, inconsistent, possibly dishonest

---
"People that need positivity around them all the time are weak individuals in my book" - @lilduval

  

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Frank Longo
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154. "So you feel "Hillary or Bernie" is the same as "Hillary or Trump.""
In response to Reply # 138
Fri Mar-04-16 08:09 PM by Frank Longo

  

          

Cool. I vehemently disagree. Like, 1908230957249857% disagree.

That's what I'm reading in your replies. If I'm reading incorrectly, feel free to succinctly correct me, because that's what your argument is reading as from the outside to this particular writer.

And your reply still doesn't remotely address my main point about the president not being the be-all end-all, that it comes down to House and Senate and State elections if you want to see real change.

But either way, do you. We can totally and absolutely disagree on this point. I'm open to the idea that people somehow equate the gap between those two scenarios. I'm baffled as to how that happens, but I'm open to the idea that those thoughts do somehow exist in the heads of individuals.

My movies: http://russellhainline.com
My movie reviews: https://letterboxd.com/RussellHFilm/
My beer TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@thebeertravelguide

  

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Riot
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116. "that is bernies 'political revolution'. he is just the lead domino"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

he is not putting on the hope/change fairy costume that Obama wore

he wants to be the spark to get all the trash out of DC


I heard some huge number of existing seats are up for grabs this year as well. along with the SC nom's. to get his aggressive policies done he is asking for a capital hill overhaul



)))--####---###--(((

bunda
<-.-> ^_^ \^0^/
get busy living, or get busy dying.

  

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SoWhat
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118. "I wish us all the best of luck with it."
In response to Reply # 116


  

          

It'd be great.

fuck you.

  

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Riot
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133. "unfortunately there is not only a wash dc-sized hairclog "
In response to Reply # 118


  

          

that has to get removed,

but probably a full third of the country wants to turn the dial back in the complete opposite direction




)))--####---###--(((

bunda
<-.-> ^_^ \^0^/
get busy living, or get busy dying.

  

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Mansa Musa
Member since Feb 16th 2009
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Thu Mar-03-16 11:21 PM

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139. "I know some feel there has been too much Clinton-bashing..."
In response to Reply # 0
Thu Mar-03-16 11:27 PM by Mansa Musa

          

...but I have to post this. The right-wing Honduran coup government she provided political cover and backchannel support to, after they overthrew the moderate leftist Manuel Zelaya, continues its reign of terror. And that reign of terror includes targeting women, indigenous people, and environmentalists. Keep Berta Cáceres in mind if you're voting for Clinton in the primaries.

http://www.thenation.com/article/the-clinton-backed-honduran-regime-is-picking-off-indigenous-leaders/

Clinton-Backed Honduran Regime Is Picking Off Indigenous Leaders

By Greg Grandin 3/3/16 12:53 PM

Hillary Clinton will be good for women. Ask Berta Cáceres. But you can’t. She’s dead. Gunned down yesterday, March 2, at midnight, in her hometown of La Esperanza, Intibuca, in Honduras.

Cáceres was a vocal and brave indigenous leader, an opponent of the 2009 Honduran coup that Hillary Clinton, as secretary of state, made possible. In The Nation, Dana Frank and I covered that coup as it unfolded. Later, as Clinton’s emails were released, others, such as Robert Naiman, Mark Weisbrot, and Alex Main, revealed the central role she played in undercutting Manuel Zelaya, the deposed president, and undercutting the opposition movement demanding his restoration. In so doing, Clinton allied with the worst sectors of Honduran society.

Despite the fact that he was a rural patriarch, Zelaya as president was remarkably supportive of “intersectionality” (that is, a left politics not reducible to class or political economy): He tried to make the morning-after pill legal. (After Zelaya’s ouster, Honduras’s coup congress—the one legitimated by Hillary Clinton—passed an “absolute ban on emergency contraception,” criminalizing “the sale, distribution, and use of the ‘morning-after pill’—imposing punishment for offenders equal to that of obtaining or performing an abortion, which in Honduras is completely restricted.”) He supported gay and transgender rights. (Read this. Among the first to be murdered was Vicky Hernandez Castillo, a transgendered activist in San Pedro Sula. Hernandez left her home on the night of the coup, apparently unaware that the new government had decreed a curfew. She was found dead the next morning, shot in the eye and strangled; Sentidog, an LGBT monitoring group, writes that 168 LGBT people were killed in Honduras between the coup and 2014.)

Zelaya apologized for a policy of “social cleansing”—that is, the murder and disappearance of street children and gang members—executed by his predecessors. And he backed rural peasant and indigenous movements, such as the one Cáceres led, in the fight against land dispossession, mining, and biofuels. Zelaya, as president, was by no means perfect. But he was slowly trying to use the power of the state on behalf of the best people in Honduras, including Berta Cáceres.

Since Zelaya’s ouster, there’s been an all-out assault on these decent people—torture, murder, militarization of the countryside, repressive laws, such as the absolute ban on the morning-after pill, the rise of paramilitary security forces, and the wholesale deliverance of the country’s land and resources to transnational pillagers. That’s not to mention libertarian fantasies, promoted by billionaires such as PayPal’s Peter Thiel and Milton Friedman’s grandson (can’t make this shit up), of turning the country into some kind of Year-Zero stateless utopia.

Such is the nature of the “unity government” Clinton helped institutionalize. In her book, Hard Choices, Clinton holds up her Honduran settlement as a proud example of her trademark clear-eyed, “pragmatic” foreign policy approach.

Berta Cáceres gave her life to fight that government. She was the general coordinator of the COPINH (Consejo Cívico de Organizaciones Populares e Indígenas de Honduras), a group that has had many of its leadership murdered in the last few years. Last year, Cáceres was awarded the Goldman Environmental Prize for her work opposing a major dam project.

Since the 2009 coup, Honduras has witnessed an explosive growth in environmentally destructive megaprojects that would displace indigenous communities. Almost 30 percent of the country’s land was earmarked for mining concessions, creating a demand for cheap energy to power future mining operations. To meet this need, the government approved hundreds of dam projects around the country, privatizing rivers, land, and uprooting communities. Among them was the Agua Zarca Dam, a joint project of Honduran company Desarrollos Energéticos SA (DESA) and Chinese state-owned Sinohydro, the world’s largest dam developer. Agua Zarca, slated for construction on the sacred Gualcarque River, was pushed through without consulting the indigenous Lenca people—a violation of international treaties governing indigenous peoples’ rights. The dam would cut off the supply of water, food and medicine for hundreds of Lenca people and violate their right to sustainably manage and live off their land.

Berta Cáceres, a Lenca woman, grew up during the violence that swept through Central America in the 1980s. Her mother, a midwife and social activist, took in and cared for refugees from El Salvador, teaching her young children the value of standing up for disenfranchised people. Cáceres grew up to become a student activist and in 1993, she co-founded the National Council of Popular and Indigenous Organizations of Honduras (COPINH) to address the growing threats posed to Lenca communities by illegal logging, fight for their territorial rights and improve their livelihoods. In 2006, community members from Rio Blanco came to COPINH asking for help. They had witnessed an influx of machinery and construction equipment coming into their town. They had no idea what the construction was for or who was behind the project. What they knew was that an aggression against the river—a place of spiritual importance to the Lenca people—was an act against the community, its free will, and its autonomy.

The names of Cáceres’s murderers are yet unknown. But we know who killed her.

According to one email circulating about her death: “Berta Cáceres and COPINH have been accompanying various land struggles throughout western Honduras. In the last few weeks, violence and repression towards Berta, COPINH, and the communities they support had escalated. In Rio Blanco on February 20th, Berta, COPINH, and the community of Rio Blanco faced threats and repression as they carried out a peaceful action to protect the River Gualcarque against the construction of a hydroelectric dam by the internationally financed Honduran company DESA. As a result of COPINH’s work supporting the Rio Blanco struggle, Berta had received countless threats against her life and was granted precautionary measures by the Inter-American Commission for Human Rights. On February 25th, another Lenca community supported by COPINH in Guise, Intibuca, was violently evicted and destroyed.”

(Here’s Telesur’s report on the killing.)

I’m tempted to end this post with a call on Bernie bros and sisters to hold Hillary Clinton responsible and to ask, when possible in town halls and meet and greets, if she ever met Cáceres, or if she is still proud of the hell she helped routinize in Honduras. But, really, Cáceres’s assassination shouldn’t be reduced to the idiocy of American electoral politics.

All people of goodwill should ask Hillary Clinton those questions.

  

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rawsouthpaw
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Fri Mar-04-16 12:48 PM

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143. "THIS is another disgusting example of the HUMAN COST of USA INC."
In response to Reply # 139


  

          

which she embraces and represents, that many of us are complicit in through our positions of privilege, indifference, apathy etc. RIP.


>...but I have to post this. The right-wing Honduran coup
>government she provided political cover and backchannel
>support to, after they overthrew the moderate leftist Manuel
>Zelaya, continues its reign of terror. And that reign of
>terror includes targeting women, indigenous people, and
>environmentalists. Keep Berta Cáceres in mind if you're
>voting for Clinton in the primaries.
>
>http://www.thenation.com/article/the-clinton-backed-honduran-regime-is-picking-off-indigenous-leaders/
>
>Clinton-Backed Honduran Regime Is Picking Off Indigenous
>Leaders
>
>By Greg Grandin 3/3/16 12:53 PM
>
>Hillary Clinton will be good for women. Ask Berta Cáceres.
>But you can’t. She’s dead. Gunned down yesterday, March 2,
>at midnight, in her hometown of La Esperanza, Intibuca, in
>Honduras.
>
>Cáceres was a vocal and brave indigenous leader, an opponent
>of the 2009 Honduran coup that Hillary Clinton, as secretary
>of state, made possible. In The Nation, Dana Frank and I
>covered that coup as it unfolded. Later, as Clinton’s emails
>were released, others, such as Robert Naiman, Mark Weisbrot,
>and Alex Main, revealed the central role she played in
>undercutting Manuel Zelaya, the deposed president, and
>undercutting the opposition movement demanding his
>restoration. In so doing, Clinton allied with the worst
>sectors of Honduran society.
>
>Despite the fact that he was a rural patriarch, Zelaya as
>president was remarkably supportive of “intersectionality”
>(that is, a left politics not reducible to class or political
>economy): He tried to make the morning-after pill legal.
>(After Zelaya’s ouster, Honduras’s coup congress—the one
>legitimated by Hillary Clinton—passed an “absolute ban on
>emergency contraception,” criminalizing “the sale,
>distribution, and use of the ‘morning-after
>pill’—imposing punishment for offenders equal to that of
>obtaining or performing an abortion, which in Honduras is
>completely restricted.”) He supported gay and transgender
>rights. (Read this. Among the first to be murdered was Vicky
>Hernandez Castillo, a transgendered activist in San Pedro
>Sula. Hernandez left her home on the night of the coup,
>apparently unaware that the new government had decreed a
>curfew. She was found dead the next morning, shot in the eye
>and strangled; Sentidog, an LGBT monitoring group, writes that
>168 LGBT people were killed in Honduras between the coup and
>2014.)
>
>Zelaya apologized for a policy of “social
>cleansing”—that is, the murder and disappearance of street
>children and gang members—executed by his predecessors. And
>he backed rural peasant and indigenous movements, such as the
>one Cáceres led, in the fight against land dispossession,
>mining, and biofuels. Zelaya, as president, was by no means
>perfect. But he was slowly trying to use the power of the
>state on behalf of the best people in Honduras, including
>Berta Cáceres.
>
>Since Zelaya’s ouster, there’s been an all-out assault on
>these decent people—torture, murder, militarization of the
>countryside, repressive laws, such as the absolute ban on the
>morning-after pill, the rise of paramilitary security forces,
>and the wholesale deliverance of the country’s land and
>resources to transnational pillagers. That’s not to mention
>libertarian fantasies, promoted by billionaires such as
>PayPal’s Peter Thiel and Milton Friedman’s grandson
>(can’t make this shit up), of turning the country into some
>kind of Year-Zero stateless utopia.
>
>Such is the nature of the “unity government” Clinton
>helped institutionalize. In her book, Hard Choices, Clinton
>holds up her Honduran settlement as a proud example of her
>trademark clear-eyed, “pragmatic” foreign policy
>approach.
>
>Berta Cáceres gave her life to fight that government. She was
>the general coordinator of the COPINH (Consejo Cívico de
>Organizaciones Populares e Indígenas de Honduras), a group
>that has had many of its leadership murdered in the last few
>years. Last year, Cáceres was awarded the Goldman
>Environmental Prize for her work opposing a major dam
>project.
>
>Since the 2009 coup, Honduras has witnessed an explosive
>growth in environmentally destructive megaprojects that would
>displace indigenous communities. Almost 30 percent of the
>country’s land was earmarked for mining concessions,
>creating a demand for cheap energy to power future mining
>operations. To meet this need, the government approved
>hundreds of dam projects around the country, privatizing
>rivers, land, and uprooting communities. Among them was the
>Agua Zarca Dam, a joint project of Honduran company
>Desarrollos Energéticos SA (DESA) and Chinese state-owned
>Sinohydro, the world’s largest dam developer. Agua Zarca,
>slated for construction on the sacred Gualcarque River, was
>pushed through without consulting the indigenous Lenca
>people—a violation of international treaties governing
>indigenous peoples’ rights. The dam would cut off the supply
>of water, food and medicine for hundreds of Lenca people and
>violate their right to sustainably manage and live off their
>land.
>
>Berta Cáceres, a Lenca woman, grew up during the violence
>that swept through Central America in the 1980s. Her mother, a
>midwife and social activist, took in and cared for refugees
>from El Salvador, teaching her young children the value of
>standing up for disenfranchised people. Cáceres grew up to
>become a student activist and in 1993, she co-founded the
>National Council of Popular and Indigenous Organizations of
>Honduras (COPINH) to address the growing threats posed to
>Lenca communities by illegal logging, fight for their
>territorial rights and improve their livelihoods. In 2006,
>community members from Rio Blanco came to COPINH asking for
>help. They had witnessed an influx of machinery and
>construction equipment coming into their town. They had no
>idea what the construction was for or who was behind the
>project. What they knew was that an aggression against the
>river—a place of spiritual importance to the Lenca
>people—was an act against the community, its free will, and
>its autonomy.
>
>The names of Cáceres’s murderers are yet unknown. But we
>know who killed her.
>
>According to one email circulating about her death: “Berta
>Cáceres and COPINH have been accompanying various land
>struggles throughout western Honduras. In the last few weeks,
>violence and repression towards Berta, COPINH, and the
>communities they support had escalated. In Rio Blanco on
>February 20th, Berta, COPINH, and the community of Rio Blanco
>faced threats and repression as they carried out a peaceful
>action to protect the River Gualcarque against the
>construction of a hydroelectric dam by the internationally
>financed Honduran company DESA. As a result of COPINH’s work
>supporting the Rio Blanco struggle, Berta had received
>countless threats against her life and was granted
>precautionary measures by the Inter-American Commission for
>Human Rights. On February 25th, another Lenca community
>supported by COPINH in Guise, Intibuca, was violently evicted
>and destroyed.”
>
>(Here’s Telesur’s report on the killing.)
>
>I’m tempted to end this post with a call on Bernie bros and
>sisters to hold Hillary Clinton responsible and to ask, when
>possible in town halls and meet and greets, if she ever met
>Cáceres, or if she is still proud of the hell she helped
>routinize in Honduras. But, really, Cáceres’s assassination
>shouldn’t be reduced to the idiocy of American electoral
>politics.
>
>All people of goodwill should ask Hillary Clinton those
>questions.

  

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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
80108 posts
Fri Mar-04-16 01:04 PM

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144. "and Americans act shocked when these people hate us"
In response to Reply # 143


          

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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rawsouthpaw
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Fri Mar-04-16 01:18 PM

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147. "as a teacher i'm senstive to the reality that if people aren't exposed "
In response to Reply # 144


  

          

to the information, aren't taught the critical thinking skills or aren't encouraged to explore beyond the narrow answers to the test, they probably won't be the most worldly global citizens. some of the responsibility lies with the mass ignorance and patriotism about US imperialism the k-12 system deliberately pushes. however once we've seen glimpses of the fuller truth on its impact we make choices, such as building (or not) with like minded towards alternatives, our responsibility to others and in this case the environment here and abroad, and who we're advocating for in political office. this single death symbolizes so much. now multiply it by hundreds of thousands for the middle east.

  

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LAbeathustla
Member since Jan 24th 2004
33866 posts
Fri Mar-04-16 01:10 PM

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145. "if bernie dont win im staying home or voting trump has to be the most"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

dumb ass hustlin backwards ass thinking ive ever heard in my
life.... a super dumb art smarty move

------------------------------------
2019 CABG Survivor

2016 OK Survivor Champion

be about it or be without it

RIP GOATs

  

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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
80108 posts
Fri Mar-04-16 01:13 PM

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146. "it is... but how many are actually saying this? "
In response to Reply # 145


          

you seem to be making shit up to get angry about.

When it's all said and done the majority of Dems will vote Dem.

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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Ted Gee Seal
Member since Apr 18th 2007
10091 posts
Fri Mar-04-16 01:42 PM

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149. "If a person is a crazy enough Bernie Bro or Trump Pumper"
In response to Reply # 146


  

          

they're probably just as if not more angry with their own side as the other. Their own side ought to be listening to them more but they're not. How do you get them to listen? Voting for their own parties in the past hasn't done it, so why should that work for the future? Maybe voting for the other side and teaching them a lesson will.

^^ that's not airtight logic but these aren't airtight thinkers.

Just IMO though.

  

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murph71
Member since Sep 15th 2005
23113 posts
Fri Mar-04-16 06:53 PM

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151. "RE: it is... but how many are actually saying this? "
In response to Reply # 146
Fri Mar-04-16 06:56 PM by murph71

          


Go to Salon.com and other LEFT leaning sites...Some of them Bernie Bros. are saying just that....

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

  

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LAbeathustla
Member since Jan 24th 2004
33866 posts
Fri Mar-04-16 08:49 PM

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155. "im prolly. little more in tune with this shit than you bruh"
In response to Reply # 146


  

          

i dont have time to make shit up.. arent you the one saying turn out is already low on the dem side?? not that it matters.. but yeah alot of bernie supporters are just mad at the "system" and trump is anti "system".. but i dont see how you can go from wanting to ne dam near socialist to possibly as far right as you can go ..as in going from bernie to trump



>you seem to be making shit up to get angry about.
>
>When it's all said and done the majority of Dems will vote
>Dem.

------------------------------------
2019 CABG Survivor

2016 OK Survivor Champion

be about it or be without it

RIP GOATs

  

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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
80108 posts
Fri Mar-04-16 09:01 PM

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156. "Uhhhh, thats because turn out has been low. Wtf"
In response to Reply # 155
Fri Mar-04-16 09:03 PM by legsdiamond

          

If you are in tune you wouldnt get upset at the truth.

Dem turn out is low bruh

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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EspritLibre
Member since Jul 01st 2005
424 posts
Fri Mar-04-16 01:26 PM

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148. "the battle is not the presidency"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Its state houses. Its Congress. The only reason Bernie is problematic is the trouble his image of not getting shit done with a R controlled legislature will serve for Ds in the years to come. Moderate is dead and Bernie is a lone wolf. Always the nay when everyone is yay. Refreshing and truthful but not what is needed to go against folks like Ryan, Cruz, blah, blah, blah. Plus, people are underestimating how much a certain significant % of the nation FEARS anything remotely related to socialism and will NEVER EVA EVA vote for him.

  

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rawsouthpaw
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Fri Mar-04-16 04:27 PM

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150. "Why are there suddenly millions of socialists in America?"
In response to Reply # 148
Fri Mar-04-16 04:28 PM by rawsouthpaw

  

          

Why are there suddenly millions of socialists in America?

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/feb/29/why-are-there-suddenly-millions-of-socialists-in-america?CMP=fb_us

"But the prime mover of millions of Americans into the socialist column has been the near complete dysfunctionality of contemporary American capitalism. Where once the regulated, unionized and semi-socialized capitalism of the mid-20th century produced a vibrant middle class majority, the deregulated, deunionized and financialized capitalism of the past 35 years has produced record levels of inequality, a shrinking middle class, and scant economic opportunities (along with record economic burdens) for the young."

  

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murph71
Member since Sep 15th 2005
23113 posts
Fri Mar-04-16 06:58 PM

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152. "RE: Why are there suddenly millions of socialists in America?"
In response to Reply # 150


          



Because they've spent the last 8 years hearing the Republicans call Obama a socialist....

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

  

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Mynoriti
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Fri Mar-04-16 07:49 PM

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153. "that's kind of Bernie's point though"
In response to Reply # 148


  

          

His revolution talk is really just about getting more people, especially young people more engaged and involved in the political process, because if they're active in more than just voting for a president they can take back state legislatures, the senate, and make inroads in the house.

He has the right idea, though the problem i still feel is his (or anyone's) ability to keep people active and it for the long haul, because his presidency, more than anyone else's would depend on it. And i don't have a whole lot of faith in millennials, or people in general. I think things have to get much worse for more people for it to work. until people wake up (so-to-speak) we'll have to settle for incremental change at best.

>Plus, people are underestimating how much a
>certain significant % of the nation FEARS anything remotely
>related to socialism and will NEVER EVA EVA vote for him.

It's definitely a dirty word still. Could dissipate over time

  

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