This is brought to you by the little snippet of the Bruce Jenner interview I saw this morning


While I am all for the LGQBT equality, I must say that I take issue with transgendered life. Before you jump down my throat and call me a hypocrite, I have friends who live the transgendered life...they know my views and they also know I'll break knee caps if someone comes at them the wrong way. (that sounds very much like "I'm not racist, my best friends are black" argument)


The men who say things like I've always known I was a woman or I am woman born into a mans body...I'm sorry, but there is so much more to being a woman than having boobs, wearing make-up and dressing up. While I have no issue with being effeminate, I must say that it sometimes offends me. And vice versa for the women who have always known they were men. I imagine there is much more to being a man than having facial hair.

I admit I don't know the psychological aspects of transgendered life. I only know what my friends have shared with me. I still don't get it...I know it's not for me to "get" I'm just voicing my opinion, and like assholes, we all have opinions.


Can we talk about it? Can we be rational?

"Holier than thou never sits well with me."(c)janey

"OKP spends way too much time looking for ways to be offended." ~legsdiamond


http://twitter.com/jeleighbean

What are you looking for?

fuck you.

I want to gain an understanding(or at least get some clarity) on something that I am in the dark about.

"Holier than thou never sits well with me."(c)janey

"OKP spends way too much time looking for ways to be offended." ~legsdiamond


http://twitter.com/jeleighbean

But you have already heard and rejected what they are likely to tell you. So I dunno what you want now.

Their gender expression is not about you - so your being upset about how they define womanhood is your baggage. i dunno where it comes from.

fuck you.

their "woman" may (or may not be) different that your "woman."
That's fine.

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"You can't beat white people. You can only knock them out."

doesn't give rise to the notion that being a woman is just about clothing and makeup. I dunno where that came from.

fuck you.

I'm not sure I'm understanding what you are saying...

"Holier than thou never sits well with me."(c)janey

"OKP spends way too much time looking for ways to be offended." ~legsdiamond


http://twitter.com/jeleighbean

saying that to be be a "woman" you must have a certain set of experiences. Saying you get offended that a person who doesn't have/hasn't been through whatever cannot be a "woman."

I think that you'd find if you listed what your criterion are, you would find there are "women" whose womanhood you would never question or disagree with don't in fact meet the criterion you have set.

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"You can't beat white people. You can only knock them out."

tell us what being a woman entails IYO.
We could get somewhere.


>I think that you'd find if you listed what your criterion are,
>you would find there are "women" whose womanhood you would
>never question or disagree with don't in fact meet the
>criterion you have set.

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Days like this I miss Sha Mecca

getting your period for the first time
waiting for boobs to grow
cramps and bloating
irrational emotions(from time to time)
feeling your clitoris throb
knowing the pangs of motherhood
bleeding once a month
even some of the negatives that come with being a woman, objectification, being underestimated

a lot of the things I listed are biological...but TO ME most of the things that go along with being a woman are the biological things.


I was talking with a co-worker and she explained it to me as what you see in the mirror not matching up with what you see in your mind...which I understand...

"Holier than thou never sits well with me."(c)janey

"OKP spends way too much time looking for ways to be offended." ~legsdiamond


http://twitter.com/jeleighbean

are you saying that is a woman gets her uterus or breasts removed she is no longer a woman?

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When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
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You cannot hate people for their own good.

my mother had a hysterectomy, I have some family that have had mastectomies...that doesn't make them any less of a woman but on the flip side if it were a transgendered FTM then what?


what I'm saying is, TO ME the experiences one has a GIRL help to make you a WOMAN...

"Holier than thou never sits well with me."(c)janey

"OKP spends way too much time looking for ways to be offended." ~legsdiamond


http://twitter.com/jeleighbean

>what I'm saying is, TO ME the experiences one has a GIRL help
>to make you a WOMAN...

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being a woman as an adult means nothing?


i'm not really following


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When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
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You cannot hate people for their own good.

so a person who didn't experience puberty as a biological female can never be a woman.

she conflates biology and sociology/psychology. or she rejects the idea that gender and sex are distinct though usually related.

fuck you.

this does not bode well
~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
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You cannot hate people for their own good.

'woman' or 'man'. they feel more comfortable referring to them as 'trans woman' or 'trans man'. and plenty trans ppl identify that way themselves - 'trans woman' or 'trans man'.

fuck you.

those attributes just confirm your gender and impacts how others view you.

i think transgendered people "feel" the opposite gender and want their physical attributes to match how they feel. i dont see it as them wanting those "parts" just for the sake of having them.

just my take.

but then I ask the question, how can someone "feel" something they have never experienced?

I know I sound dumb...I'm trying to correct that.

"Holier than thou never sits well with me."(c)janey

"OKP spends way too much time looking for ways to be offended." ~legsdiamond


http://twitter.com/jeleighbean

Some feel better when they perform the opposite gender. Some feel better when they perform a blend of the genders.

fuck you.

i "feel" like a mother, even tho i have no children yet.

essentially when you see others in that role, you relate to it from deep down inside. of course you are NOT whatever it is, but you still feel it.

>i "feel" like a mother, even tho i have no children yet.
but as a woman, it is genetically coded into you to have that feeling...now some women never have that feeling, but it doesn't make them any less of a woman.

"Holier than thou never sits well with me."(c)janey

"OKP spends way too much time looking for ways to be offended." ~legsdiamond


http://twitter.com/jeleighbean

its coded in me by my soul, my spirit and to a lesser extent, by my values and socialization

most of us feel a biological imperative to reproduce but it has nothing to do with sex or gender.

>>i "feel" like a mother, even tho i have no children yet.

>but as a woman, it is genetically coded into you to have that
>feeling...now some women never have that feeling, but it
>doesn't make them any less of a woman.

you coulda stopped right there...

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I'm tryna be better off, not better than...

nm

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"You can't beat white people. You can only knock them out."

Snipey McSnarkatrons
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http://www.iamsharandajones.org/help

that any amount of "education" is gonna help me understand.

so with that, when i see the memes and hear people commenting on it, i shrug and keep it moving. let bruce do bruce.

i don't get it but it's not for me to get. bruce don't require my understanding.

now that i think about it, i don't see why he did the interview...unless money was the motivation...

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I'm tryna be better off, not better than...

>that any amount of "education" is gonna help me understand.
>
>so with that, when i see the memes and hear people commenting
>on it, i shrug and keep it moving. let bruce do bruce.
>
>i don't get it but it's not for me to get. bruce don't require
>my understanding.

It really is that simple to me. Just let folks deal with their lives the best way they know how.

educating some of us and helping others that are dealing with this that aren't public figures and feel alone. not to mention the dialogue its spurred.

somebody will have a better understanding. others won't care, and of course some will spew hatred towards him and others in his world.

Y'all buy those labels, I was born supreme

prevailing narrowish definition of gender and the norms that go with.


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as much as i want that entire family to go away and could care less on a personal level about his struggle, I'm glad that there will be a deeper understanding of how fluid gender and sexuality is.

>prevailing narrowish definition of gender and the norms that
>go with.


it traps us as well

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When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
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You cannot hate people for their own good.

You are what your chromosomes are and it's sad because people go out there and take these hormones and have their bodies mutilated to gain God knows what.

It's one thing if you're born with both sex organs and the doctors say "cut the penis" because that's easier and you could very well be a dude who the doctors made a mistake with. Folks with that situation I can empathize with more.

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Everything looks like Oprah kissing Harvey Weinstein these days

Which is not to say that I don't believe that mental illness CAN make someone believe they're "in the wrong body", but I no longer believe most, or even a statistically significant percentage of trans people are mentally ill.

or maybe same. I used to wonder why they classified homosexuality as a "mental illness" rather than this back in the day. it seemed way more plausible to me that someone would enjoy sex with the same gender rather than to believe you are a gender other than the one assigned at birth

over time, my whole perspective on what constitutes a mental "ill" has changed. and while some trans people may qualify, it's not because of their gender identity, rather what everyone else that's in the same boat goes through

Yes, I'm mad. Let's move on.

Jays | Cavs | Eagles | Sabres | Tarheels

PSN: Dr_Claw_77 | XBL: Dr Claw 077 | FB: drclaw077 | T: @drclaw77 | http://thepeoplesvault.wordpress.com

if you're willing to go through all the obstacles that accompany living as a transgendered - who the fuck am i tell you that what you feel is a lie?

everybody needs to lighten the fuck up, imo.

as long as you ain't fucking w/ no kids or infringing on anyone else's rights - i can usually fuck w/ it.

♚♚♚♚

#BYLUG >>> https://goo.gl/1ooFp6

♚♚♚♚

screamin' mothafuck a 12 /
bitches ain't shit /
cops ain't neither /
they huntin' my people /

- i. rashad

♚♚♚♚

You clearly don't understand transgenderism, primarily because you seem incapable of putting yourself into another person's headspace or problems, and therefore have deemed them trivial.

This is where discrimination (and fake allyism) comes from.

I cant relate either, but I respect their freedom. Diane Sawyer and Bruce Jenner did a good job educating the world

Man: I feel like I was born in a woman's body
Me: OK, do you
Man: I want to be a woman, I've always felt this way and I'll do what it takes to correct it and make myself happy
Me: OK, do you
Man: Please address me as a woman
Me: OK, sorry for any slip ups (with pronouns)
New Woman: I feel great
Me: OK, do you, glad for you
New Woman: I can't wait to meet that special someone, I found a great woman who I'm attracted to
Me: OK, do you
New Woman: But I'm not a lesbian
Me: But...but...but

1. Most trans are heterosexual. So most MTF trans like Bruce are attracted to men.

2. I dunno what's up with Bruce claiming that as a woman who's attracted to women she won't identify as a lesbian.

fuck you.

he feels a certain way about lesbians? Perhaps even though he's been struggling with his gender identity he's never really had a need to associate or identify with lesbians since he's always dated straight women.

I'll be curious to see if his viewpoint changes after a few years living openly as a woman who's attracted to women.

I've been doing les clubs for a while now and i always see a few mtf folk mingling in the cut.


>2. I dunno what's up with Bruce claiming that as a woman who's
>attracted to women she won't identify as a lesbian.

www.twitter.com/luvlee2003

♥♥♥ ♥ ♥ ♥

fuck you.

>he feels a certain way about lesbians? Perhaps even though
>he's been struggling with his gender identity he's never
>really had a need to associate or identify with lesbians since
>he's always dated straight women.
>
>I'll be curious to see if his viewpoint changes after a few
>years living openly as a woman who's attracted to women.
>
>I've been doing les clubs for a while now and i always see a
>few mtf folk mingling in the cut.
>
>
>>2. I dunno what's up with Bruce claiming that as a woman
>who's
>>attracted to women she won't identify as a lesbian.


60 years of not living that life
he may need to explore it by living it to know

~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
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You cannot hate people for their own good.

if you can simplify womenhood as being those kinds of superficial things then you definitely won't understand.

Some of us don't want kids. I do.

Some of us are really handy around the house. I am.

There's not a rubric we all follow. The only constant is that when people see us they generally assume we are women. I think all Bruce wants is for folks to see him as a woman and then to keep it moving.

www.twitter.com/luvlee2003

♥♥♥ ♥ ♥ ♥

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when you assume that that is what they mean when they say they are women and not men

why would you assume that they think being a woman is only those superficial things?

i will still never understand why we are so consumed with how other ppl choose to live their lives if it doesn't hurt or affect us.

Not that I disgree with any of your previous points, but...

>i will still never understand why we are so consumed with how
>other ppl choose to live their lives if it doesn't hurt or
>affect us.


Do you not think all women are affected by the common idea of what it means to be a woman?

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but the societal idea of what a woman is (or at least should be) has historically been defined by men

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https://soundcloud.com/swageyph/yph-die-with-me

>but the societal idea of what a woman is (or at least should
>be) has historically been defined by men

Of course this is dependent upon whether or not one views every transgender person
as a woman or just someone who wants to live as a woman.

For instance... since she's seeing this as men living as their idea of women, it would
make sense that it seems to cheapen the idea of "what it means to be a woman" from her perspective.

Now, I'm not saying she's right or wrong, but it would seem to be a valid concern in
light of the fact that male definition even found its way into this sub-thread.

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If that's how this person feels and wants to be then so be it. it's not doing me any harm.

i will probably be the one still calling Bruce a "He" after he's fully transitioned though. I guess if I actually knew him in real life I'd make the effort to switch up though. *shrugs*

http://www.youtube.com/user/gumzization
twitter: @BrosefMalone

people can and do have a wide range of opinions on it.

but at the end of the day, their orientation/identity doesn't affect you in any way, and thus you (nor anyone else) would have no sound basis upon which to deny them equal rights under the law.

-->

fuck you.

Maybe I'm overlooking that part.

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fuck you.

people".

She respects other people's rights to do as they please whether she completely
understands it or not... no different from the rest of us.
I don't get why that's hard for people to understand.

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fuck you.

she simply feels the concept of being transgender cheapens the idea of what it
means to be either gender.

Infusing "equal rights" into it is, literally, reading something that's not there.

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fuck you.

are there any transgenders on the boards?


~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

it is not my intention to make anyone feel uncomfortable....the exact opposite actually.

"Holier than thou never sits well with me."(c)janey

"OKP spends way too much time looking for ways to be offended." ~legsdiamond


http://twitter.com/jeleighbean

because if you don't, how can you expect to facilitate a comfortable discussion?

That's sort of like people who are against gay-marriage saying things like "Our intent is to respect everybody. We love sinners, we love everyone." -- Yet, their policy stance is to deny equal rights and thus their claims of being respectful is voided.

-->

this is that whole practice being a better person thing

jelly you have a lot of practicing to do
~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
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You cannot hate people for their own good.

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Days like this I miss Sha Mecca

"While I am all for the LGQBT equality, I must say that I take issue with transgendered life."

Some of her comments made me think that she was placing trans-people on a lower totem pole than other protected groups.


-->

rights?


>Some of her comments made me think that she was placing
>trans-people on a lower totem pole than other protected
>groups.

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because you can't be completely for LGBQT rights while not holding one of those letter's lives as equal to the other 4

here for dis.

As far as I can make sense of it with current knowledge, if you're born biologically male and you think you're a woman on the inside, you are making stereotypical presumptions about what womanhood is that you can't possibly verify as actual womanhood.

when they express the gender that matches their biological sex. they also 'know' that when they express either the other gender or some combination they feel better.

the most important aspect of this whole thing is knowing they feel wrong when they live as the gender that matches their biological sex.

fuck you.

And I feel better when I bleach my skin and straighten my hair. Does the logic hold? Should I now be accepted as a white man?

______________________________________

Everything looks like Oprah kissing Harvey Weinstein these days

if you want to identify as white then go ahead.

if you have surgeries to alter your appearance and want to hold yourself out as a white man that's fine w/me.

fuck you.

nm

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"You can't beat white people. You can only knock them out."

"A person of either sex who feels sensitive or likes pantyhose"

Woman has always meant a person of the female sex.

What is gender but a reference to sex? Even if you separate gender from sex, you're using gender as a reference to feelings and behaviors that you stereotype said sex with. You are referencing sex.

For a person to truly believe they are actually factually truly a woman because they relate to things our culture associates with females is delusional.

I have no animosity toward someone like that, but I can't help feeling bad for someone whose grasp on reality is glitching out so severely.

exacerbated by that fact that many languages have limited vocabulary for the experiences of those who don't fall into one side or another in this socially constructed binary. Many people fall victim to the shortcomings of the language they speak.

But there are non-European languages around the world which do allow space for people to more fully express themselves. Muxe in Zapotec, Winkte in Lakota, and Mashonga in Swahili are examples of this.

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"You can't beat white people. You can only knock them out."

womens clothes erryday just cuz ppl expected me to

put on heels or a weave or watever

try n walk n talk like a woman

but still knowin dat inside im my ignant nigga self underneath


dat be hard as fuck

id go nuts real quick

cant imagine a nigga feelin some shit like dat they whole life man

if i had to live as a woman b/c i had breasts and a vagina though i FEEL LIKE a man and am never comfortable when i live as a woman i'd be tormented.

fuck you.

to wear makeup or "women's clothes"

I'm far from immune to the conditioning, but I do recognize that these are not true markers of manhood or woman hood.

If you're a man who feels more comfortable in "women's clothes", then that's what you are: a man who prefers to wear lipstick. That doesn't make you a woman

That's just going off your style example. Obviously its not all about clothes. Its about all kinds of presumptions that what you're feeling inside are the feelings of a woman and not a man. That can only be your own presumptions and imagination.

>I'm far from immune to the conditioning, but I do recognize
>that these are not true markers of manhood or woman hood.

they are pretty important markers.

>If you're a man who feels more comfortable in "women's
>clothes", then that's what you are: a man who prefers to wear
>lipstick. That doesn't make you a woman

you're correct in some cases but not in all.

as a general matter we need to accept that how these folks identify has NO bearing on us and we should give them space to identify as they see fit. why can't we do that?

fuck you.

n not have they SO or bosses or whoever go wtf?

it aint bout da lipstick or clothes or watever


its bout da way society expect you to look n act

some shit aint "allowed" if you a man

and by allowed i mean da gender boxes is so tight might as well not be allowed

shit, if it was i bet its a few men dat would be happy doin just dat