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Subject: "Going back to the idea of Universal (base) Income..." Previous topic | Next topic
spades
Member since Mar 22nd 2006
44259 posts
Fri May-08-15 01:33 PM

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"Going back to the idea of Universal (base) Income..."


  

          

An argument against it I always here is: "Some people just won't work."

Yeah? And?

Why do we care? Also, why are we pretending that we don't already have a similar system in place (admittedly on a much smaller scale) with our disability benefits system? I work in the private sector and let me tell you, there is a segment of the population that has figured out w/the right circumstances they can get free money for life and they mold their life around it and make it work.

What's the central issue here?

For those interested:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_income

www.basicincome.com

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Topic Outline
Subject Author Message Date ID
spite, heartlessness
May 08th 2015
1
I think it's similar to the minimum wage reflex
May 08th 2015
2
don't we kind of have that now with welfare? if you make under x dollars
May 08th 2015
3
Not really. Welfare is temporary - this is permanent.
May 08th 2015
4
welfare is SUPPOSED to be temporary
May 08th 2015
5
      because low wages disincentivize work
May 08th 2015
7
Childless people have to game SSI
May 08th 2015
6
      Yep.
May 08th 2015
8
      you mean by faking or manufacturing a disability?
May 08th 2015
13
           SSI and SSDI fraud are RAMPANT, man
May 08th 2015
14
                Man you must work for the gov't too.
May 08th 2015
15
                i believe you, maybe it just doesn't bother me
May 08th 2015
17
I swear there was a show about this on NPR a few years ago
May 08th 2015
9
I could see that.
May 08th 2015
10
RE: I swear there was a show about this on NPR a few years ago
May 08th 2015
11
people who are against this....why? what's the reason to oppose it?
May 08th 2015
12
That's what I'm trying to figure out.
May 08th 2015
16
Where is the money gonna come from to pay for all that?
May 08th 2015
18
LOL
May 08th 2015
21
People who work themselves to death don't want to see others chillin...
May 08th 2015
19
Certainly not at their expense.
May 08th 2015
20
I have so many words to say, no current gumption to compose them
May 09th 2015
22
We have a cultural hangup about dignity coming from
May 09th 2015
23
The Atlantic chimes in
May 23rd 2015
24
The Economist rebutts
May 25th 2015
25

John Forte
Member since Feb 22nd 2013
15361 posts
Fri May-08-15 01:36 PM

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1. "spite, heartlessness"
In response to Reply # 0


          

I barely got a roof over mine...

  

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spades
Member since Mar 22nd 2006
44259 posts
Fri May-08-15 01:47 PM

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2. "I think it's similar to the minimum wage reflex"
In response to Reply # 1


  

          

but again, I just don't get why they don't realize they'll benefit too.

LITERALLY Cutting one's nose off to spite their face.

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Get Out The Room!
http://getouttheroom.podomatic.com
@fakewilliamkatt

"You probably wouldn't worry about what people think of you if you could know how seldom they do!" - Olin Miller

  

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BigJazz
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Fri May-08-15 01:47 PM

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3. "don't we kind of have that now with welfare? if you make under x dollars"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

we give you benefits to bring you up some.



***
I'm tryna be better off, not better than...

  

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spades
Member since Mar 22nd 2006
44259 posts
Fri May-08-15 01:49 PM

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4. "Not really. Welfare is temporary - this is permanent."
In response to Reply # 3


  

          

********************************

Get Out The Room!
http://getouttheroom.podomatic.com
@fakewilliamkatt

"You probably wouldn't worry about what people think of you if you could know how seldom they do!" - Olin Miller

  

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BigJazz
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Fri May-08-15 01:53 PM

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5. "welfare is SUPPOSED to be temporary"
In response to Reply # 4


  

          

I've seen generations of people on it...



***
I'm tryna be better off, not better than...

  

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John Forte
Member since Feb 22nd 2013
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Fri May-08-15 01:55 PM

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7. "because low wages disincentivize work"
In response to Reply # 5


          

The difference (after taxes) between working for minimum wage and receiving SSI is $35/week...much of which the worker spends on transportation. There's no way on earth I'd flip burgers 40 hrs/week to net $35.

I know SSI isn't welfare, but there are more people on SSI because it's an easier benefit to receive. You'd be surprised at how many people you think are "on welfare" who don't actually receive TANF.

  

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John Forte
Member since Feb 22nd 2013
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Fri May-08-15 01:53 PM

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6. "Childless people have to game SSI"
In response to Reply # 3


          

  

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spades
Member since Mar 22nd 2006
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Fri May-08-15 02:05 PM

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8. "Yep."
In response to Reply # 6


  

          

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Get Out The Room!
http://getouttheroom.podomatic.com
@fakewilliamkatt

"You probably wouldn't worry about what people think of you if you could know how seldom they do!" - Olin Miller

  

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philpot
Member since Apr 01st 2007
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Fri May-08-15 02:31 PM

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13. "you mean by faking or manufacturing a disability?"
In response to Reply # 6


  

          

from my experience the vast majority of SSI recipients are truly disabled in one way or another and in fact have to wait way too long to get that help

SSI is also just for folks who haven't paid enough into the Social Security system to get actual disability, but i'm guessing you know this?

________________________________________________________________
whenever you did these things to the least of my brothers you did them to me

  

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John Forte
Member since Feb 22nd 2013
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Fri May-08-15 02:41 PM

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14. "SSI and SSDI fraud are RAMPANT, man"
In response to Reply # 13


          

Look at the sheer number of claims for fibromyalgia. The government spends over a billion dollars on SSI/SSDI LEGAL FEES every year.

  

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spades
Member since Mar 22nd 2006
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Fri May-08-15 03:14 PM

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15. "Man you must work for the gov't too."
In response to Reply # 14


  

          

In here preaching the truth.

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Get Out The Room!
http://getouttheroom.podomatic.com
@fakewilliamkatt

"You probably wouldn't worry about what people think of you if you could know how seldom they do!" - Olin Miller

  

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philpot
Member since Apr 01st 2007
21673 posts
Fri May-08-15 03:28 PM

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17. "i believe you, maybe it just doesn't bother me "
In response to Reply # 14


  

          

i guess i just assume when ppl get ssi/ssdi they're actually disabled esp cause so many folks get denied at first

________________________________________________________________
whenever you did these things to the least of my brothers you did them to me

  

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PoppaGeorge
Member since Nov 07th 2004
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Fri May-08-15 02:14 PM

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9. "I swear there was a show about this on NPR a few years ago"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Some European country (I really want to say Spain, but I'm not sure) where everyone is given a basic income had a horrible unemployment problem with young people. They figured they could just get by until that "perfect" job comes along or something like that.

If I can find it I'll post a link to it. Had to be in either 2011, 2012, or 2013 when I heard the broadcast.

---------------------------

"Where was the peace when we were getting shot? Where's the peace when we were getting laid out?
Where is the peace when we are in the back of ambulances? Where is the peace then?
They don't want to call for peace then.

  

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spades
Member since Mar 22nd 2006
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Fri May-08-15 02:16 PM

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10. "I could see that."
In response to Reply # 9


  

          

but there's always immigrants. Most developed nations that could afford this would likely be migrant magnets.

I mean, that's kinda how it works now, no?

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Get Out The Room!
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@fakewilliamkatt

"You probably wouldn't worry about what people think of you if you could know how seldom they do!" - Olin Miller

  

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double 0
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Fri May-08-15 02:18 PM

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11. "RE: I swear there was a show about this on NPR a few years ago"
In response to Reply # 9


          

There were issues in Sweden as well at the beginning of the 80s with this. Watched some PBS special on it with Thomas Friedman.

Although I hate to admit it my Dutch cousins are definitely a bit lazy because of everything they get.

Double 0
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BigJazz
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Fri May-08-15 02:25 PM

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12. "people who are against this....why? what's the reason to oppose it?"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

i guess i'm in the DON'T CARE EITHER WAY group which is probably a problem but i still don't care.


***
I'm tryna be better off, not better than...

  

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spades
Member since Mar 22nd 2006
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Fri May-08-15 03:15 PM

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16. "That's what I'm trying to figure out. "
In response to Reply # 12


  

          

********************************

Get Out The Room!
http://getouttheroom.podomatic.com
@fakewilliamkatt

"You probably wouldn't worry about what people think of you if you could know how seldom they do!" - Olin Miller

  

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Shaun Tha Don
Member since Nov 19th 2005
18302 posts
Fri May-08-15 08:52 PM

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18. "Where is the money gonna come from to pay for all that?"
In response to Reply # 0


          

There are only so many wealthy people the government can tax.

Rest In Peace, Bad News Brown

  

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astralblak
Member since Apr 05th 2007
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Fri May-08-15 09:54 PM

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21. "LOL"
In response to Reply # 18


  

          

.

  

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BlassFemur
Member since Mar 26th 2008
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Fri May-08-15 08:59 PM

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19. "People who work themselves to death don't want to see others chillin..."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

while still having a roof over their head, clothes on their back and food in their stomach. It shouldn't really matter, but misery loves company.

https://banafrit.com/
http://middlebrainmedia.com/

  

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Shaun Tha Don
Member since Nov 19th 2005
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Fri May-08-15 09:11 PM

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20. "Certainly not at their expense."
In response to Reply # 19


          

Rest In Peace, Bad News Brown

  

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Jon
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Sat May-09-15 09:11 AM

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22. "I have so many words to say, no current gumption to compose them"
In response to Reply # 0


          

at this moment. But this is a subject near and dear to me. We're going to have no choice but to arrive at something along these lines soon, whether ppl like it or not. And there's no good reason NOT to like it.

  

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Teknontheou
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Sat May-09-15 09:50 AM

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23. "We have a cultural hangup about dignity coming from"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

having a job. The idea of receiving full income (theoretically), just because, strikes people as wrong.

The thing is, technology is probably gonna get us to that place, whether we like it or not.

  

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imcvspl
Member since Mar 07th 2005
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Sat May-23-15 10:23 PM

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24. "The Atlantic chimes in"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2015/05/what-if-everybody-didnt-have-to-work-to-get-paid/393428/?utm_source=pocket&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=pockethits

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Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." � Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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imcvspl
Member since Mar 07th 2005
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Mon May-25-15 09:00 AM

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25. "The Economist rebutts"
In response to Reply # 24


  

          

http://www.economist.com/news/finance-and-economics/21651897-replacing-welfare-payments-basic-income-all-alluring

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." � Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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