I was part of a heated convo about what black people as a group need to improve our lives.
It's the standard argument External Factors (more support from the government, dismantling the white racist power structure) versus internal factors (stronger families, return to our old value system).
Someone said something that I have never heard before put so bluntly (by a non-racist) but my dude said that we need White People to come up. They have the power, the money, the institutions, the come up can't happen unless they are invested. Even when we control things like local government, as we see in cities like Detroit it ain't enough.
Further, its not just a matter of middle and upper class black people pitching in, their aren't enough of us to help.
Got me thinking.
I've come to the conclusion that the best thing you can do for poor black kids is to get them surrounded by middle class and upper class folks (I think preferably black). Being around people who are getting it done has a tremendous impact. My dude's theory dovetails with this because, well, most middle & upper class folks are white.
Anyway, I am trying to work this out in my head and would appreciate hearing other people's thought on this.
********** "Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson
obviously his family was well off enough to move into an upper middle class neighborhood, but from there his life story shows the impact of being the pioneering black person in mostly white environments and how he worked all the way to the top to be accepted among the white ruling class.
Atillah Moor Member since Sep 05th 2013 13825 posts
Mon May-12-14 11:00 AM
2. "Not white people specifically, but we do need allies" In response to Reply # 0
And everyone does. Nobody comes up without somebody reaching a hand out to pull or push that person up a level. The problem is that we still have this negative connotation with playing "the game" which in part equates to working alongside whites without letting your feelings negatively impact the work relationship.
______________________________________
Everything looks like Oprah kissing Harvey Weinstein these days
4. "Yeah I totally disagree. " In response to Reply # 3
Of course black people are not a monolith but I do feel a part of a black community. As part of that community I feel a need to look out for other people in my community. I feel personally invested in the welfare of that larger community.
It would be fairly easy to say "fuck it, I'm good" and keep it moving and not give a fcuk but I wasn't brought up like that.
********** "Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson
10. "no I don't mean like that..." In response to Reply # 4
of course we are a community and our sense of community is innate and is ultimately the biggest thing that sets us aside from the European..I personally work a job that I have way more earning potential than what I make just so I can help raise these kids out here who are being raised by the streets. I understand completely and I love my people.
I'm speaking in terms of how we value success and achievement and such things...
We are a community, but your success is not my success unless we both succeed. I think too many of us who are not winning, look at others winning and we feel like we made it. I feel that this concept is internalized in our lifestyles and when you combine this with the American way of doing things (credit, debt, the entire keeping up with the Jones' complex) you get what we currently have today...entire generations of people who are much more involved in appearing as achievers than actually achieving. People who are too investing in who is winning rather than am I winning? In the meantime, they are losing. We all are losing because time passes us by.
Of course this is just one small aspect of the concept of group failure.
12. "RE: no I don't mean like that..." In response to Reply # 10
>We are a community, but your success is not my success unless >we both succeed. I think too many of us who are not winning, >look at others winning and we feel like we made it. I feel >that this concept is internalized in our lifestyles and when >you combine this with the American way of doing things >(credit, debt, the entire keeping up with the Jones' complex) >you get what we currently have today...entire generations of >people who are much more involved in appearing as achievers >than actually achieving. People who are too investing in who >is winning rather than am I winning? In the meantime, they are >losing. We all are losing because time passes us by. > >Of course this is just one small aspect of the concept of >group failure.
I think these are middle class and upper class problems. I don't think the hoods biggest problem is keeping up with the joneses.
********** "Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson
5. "*I miss your 2Pac avi* Anyway, yes...and no" In response to Reply # 0
At the same time. Its complex because it really depends on where you are, and how much of a come-up you want. In America, Europe, Australia... yea you need White people if you want to maximize your earning potential. Capitalize on all beings. But if you're somewhere thats scarce in Caucasians, then it might not be so detrimental. I mean, Master P sold cds out the trunk of his car to mainly Black folks, but even he eventually profitted off of White people.
15. "As an entire classifed people, no Black will need White support." In response to Reply # 13
The fact is that this nation is designed to support the upward movement of White people, so in order for Black Society at large to come up in or around the system, we will beed their support in some ways.
As an individual, one can achieve the proverbial Come Up without the direct support of White people, but that Money line will have to eventually come through the fingers of some White person.
11. "This has been a running topic on The Champs podcast" In response to Reply # 0
>I've come to the conclusion that the best thing you can do for >poor black kids is to get them surrounded by middle class and >upper class folks (I think preferably black). Being around >people who are getting it done has a tremendous impact. My >dude's theory dovetails with this because, well, most middle & >upper class folks are white.
Neal Brennan's thing is "most successful black people grew up around white people". I don't think he's necessarily making the blanket statement that black people need white people to come up, but it's a consistency he's noticed and points out whenever a guest can validate his theory. I'm not so sure if this holds up outside of the entertainment industry though.
------ so...if you're into DJing or nightlife... or DJing AND nightlife... peep Opening Set Podcast https://soundcloud.com/openingset
14. "I was listening to his interview with Hannibal Buress. He was obnox." In response to Reply # 11
Really coming off as one of those dudes who really thinks he "knows" black people and was trying to get HB to agree with him on the notion that race relations are so much different today. Definitely had an agenda.
********** "Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson
34. "I don't get it. Are you purposely not understanding the question?" In response to Reply # 28
>in america while completely segregating themselves from white >people, white institutions, white customers, white employers? > >no no group can do this
No. That is not a proper rephrasing of the question I asked (BTW, a lot of black people prospered in a segregated america so not like there isn't precedence for that but that's beside the point).
My question is can black people come up without HELP from white people. That is not at all the same as asking can black people come up segregating themselves from white people.
********** "Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson
35. "I don't WANT to do it with or without white people. " In response to Reply # 33
I don't have a strong desire either way.
I could imagine though some would want to do it without black people so we would be self reliant and not at the mercy of another group who may or may not want to help.
My question is can it be done without white people.
********** "Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson
Now that that's out of the way, lets talk abour Asians. I'm going to assume you're talking about Asian Americans, and not the continent of Asia, because modern-day Asia made its fortunes providing cheap manufacturing for white people, so yes, they did need white ppl.
Now if you're talkign about having neighborhood shops, blah.
Atillah Moor Member since Sep 05th 2013 13825 posts
Mon May-12-14 03:42 PM
40. "Where does all this Jew stuff come from? " In response to Reply # 22
>First and foremost Jews = White. > That's just not true. Ask a white person. Go on Stormfront, ask a Jew, do whatever you gotta do but that is just not true. It is true that there are self hating Jews out there living or passing as white, but when white folks go after Jews(they have and they will again) you will know who the Jews are then. I've met too many Jews that talk mad shit about white people to ever believe this one. In my experience Nigger and Jew are often said in the same breath.
Now that that's out of the way, lets talk about Asians.
>going to assume you're talking about Asian Americans, and not >the continent of Asia, because modern-day Asia made its >fortunes providing cheap manufacturing for white people, so >yes, they did need white. > Debatable. Asian Americans certainly made their fortunes off of the gold rush, railroad, etc. in the US, but Asians go wherever there is opportunity. It just so happened that America was offering the best at the time. I'm not sure you could say they "needed" the money of wealthy whites. They would have gone to Africa or South America if that's where the largest opportunity was.
______________________________________
Everything looks like Oprah kissing Harvey Weinstein these days
21. "RE: Do Black People Need White People to come up?" In response to Reply # 0
>I've come to the conclusion that the best thing you can do for >poor black kids is to get them surrounded by middle class and >upper class folks (I think preferably black). Being around >people who are getting it done has a tremendous impact. My >dude's theory dovetails with this because, well, most middle & >upper class folks are white. >
you do know middle class and upper class folks regardless of race usually run in some the same circles
i just moved
8 houses on my cul de sac
1) me and my wife (black/hispanic) 2) a greek couple 3) single black women 4)asian couple 5) white couple 6) african family 7)white couple 8)asian couple
these house are 550k and up pretty sure that middle class we live next to each other probably work in some the same circles do we need help as black folks from white folk it helps...but is it a need maybe not but why wouldnt i place my kid amongst white,black,asian latina should i exclude him from conversing with upper middle class white folks
______________________________________
Navem nu, cuando sol Tutu nu, vondo nos nu Vita em, no continous non Nos nu ekta nos sepe ta, amen
When the sun shades the ship We sweat and life is not safe To swim or to touch not When we unite we hedge amen
29. "success has nothing to do with skin color. never has never will." In response to Reply # 0
all people of all colors would do well to put away this lie. it was created to foster disunity in the people. same as the perceived differences between people of various faiths and politics.
success of any type starts with positivity, unity, and creativity. all the stuff that people champion for their races.
if we simply stop giving credence to the thought that skin color affects our outcomes, our goals and standards will be set higher and our minds will grow stronger. that alone is really the secret to our success and what will really get us to overcome racism and inequality.
how to come up in three easy steps:
step 1 - stop giving power to the idea that your power is limited.
step 2 - help others first with your limitless power and energy.
step 3 - when help comes back to you, in any form, use it to meet your needs and give away the excess. the cycle continues.
the construct and aftermath of racism in America has many black minds stuck in step 1. when enough people believe something is true, it becomes so. we have to get off that and move forward...
...but when we did move on to step 2, society began killing-off our leaders and letting our reclaimed power structures collapse through apathy. so what does that look like on our end? go back 2 spaces, negro.
now on the contrary, many successful white people seem to not understand step 3 at all. not all of them (of course) but many for decades received the assistance necessary to lead productive lives in America. this came to them without struggle and without the need to prove their worthiness (something people of color are routinely up against).
that this privilege is so hotly debated these days is proof that many still do not want to truly discuss racism and what it does to a society.
it's a cancer that must be rooted out the body. that change must happen in the hearts and minds of everyone who gives the power of belief to the concept that skin color makes human beings different people. when we stop believing this, it stops being true.
we must recognize American society gives people of different skin colors different experiences. that's a strike against what our society has become, not a confirmation that something is wrong with my skin, my mind, my beliefs or my goodness i wrote a lot here...
31. "Well, if you think about it, some folks (on here, heh heh) say" In response to Reply # 0
African-Americans ARE OWED reparations......
think...
Did the slave-masters and the entire country need slaves to build the wealth foundation of the USA?
If so....
It shouldn't be a sign of lack if African-Americans want what is DUE due to how this country "came up".
I know African-Americans did a-ight here and there after the Civil War (there were cases, however, where whites destroyed various prosperous black communities in the 1800's/early 1900's).
So, I know the Civil Rights movement and the 70's/early 80's had some gains....
but now...
with the gentrification and the filling up of prisons.....we got to admit.....we never really got where we should without the reparations being paid.
We're going to have to say that if the gentrification continues and the prisons keep filling up.
38. "do we need some inherent YT pixiedust to rub onto us? naaaw" In response to Reply # 0
but do we need more access, less institutional racism, fairness in housing, labor, and education practices and the end of PIC, the knobs of all which are majority operated by whitefolks? well yea, that was needed 50 yrs ago
)))--####---###--(((
bunda <-.-> ^_^ \^0^/ get busy living, or get busy dying.
43. "people can push racial sensationalism all they want" In response to Reply # 0
but what's really needed is not for 'black and/or white people to come up or to control/preserve power' - it's for an evolving philosophy and knowledge base to come up and take hold within people, and not surprisingly, that evolving philosophy is at direct conflict w/ racial compartmentalization.
mwasi kitoko Member since Jul 15th 2007 60768 posts
Tue May-13-14 11:01 AM
45. "its either they help us or we move them the fuck out of our way." In response to Reply # 0 Tue May-13-14 11:04 AM by mwasi kitoko
so far expecting them to save us has be assbackwards since these same people we need are always making sure they are passing laws and creating environments that keep black people at a disadvantage. them helping us is bad for business. so the only other option is...and most people (including myself) are not ready for what all that entails. this is why unity is so important (and how that unity is utilized)
(edited to add: and if you're talking about like your white neighbors or whatever. that's not what i'm talking about so you can just negate my whole reply lol i'm talking about folks actually in power)
"This person is trying to sabotage that person to become the reckless 'Alpha' Leader/jockeying for position/power"
"This person is trying to sabotage that person in the organization due to personality clashes and bad blood, agendas/differences, etc."
"This group (who seem to be similar to us but don't completely agree with us) is trying to sabotage our group"
The government had a field day with all of those obviously fragile and volitile dynamics that easily derailed the Black power movement
And Crips and Bloods in the 80's and 90's and Chicago 21st century has proven that can easily be replicated today.
Everything about Black people overcoming getting lost in prisons and pushed out by gentrification here and there more and more has to be done with a nod to higher (yes) higher values like the Civil Rights movement because that COMPLETELY TAKES AWAY ANY NEED FOR ANY SORT OF CLANDESTINE BEHAVIORS that caused the Black power movement to be destroyed by the paranoid antics of: "That so-called ally is really out to get me" or "that comrade is really out to sabotage me"....
All of that tragic obvious pitfall stuff.
Got to be something where NO SECRECY IS NEEDED ABSOLUTELY.
Writer Nikole Hannah-Jones argues that it is the most successful policy ever in the goal of improving the education of poor black kids and yet there isn't the political will to pursue it anymore.
It made me think about this post. Folks should check it out. I would love to discuss.
********** "Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson
Printer-friendly copy 
Email this topic to a friend
General Discussion
