3. "Different levels of militancy for different folks" In response to Reply # 0
I'd be pretty slow to snip a drum right off a RZA beat or something...but break records and whatnot are more designed with a specific purpose in mind. At the end of the day, what I think doesn't matter how someone else chops their sounds, but I personally would probably go ahead and get on this scenario, esp. if I had visions of how to give it a hot surgical flip.
9. "RE: if you're that self-conscious about it" In response to Reply # 4
the difference in that scenario is that quest IS A LIVE DRUMMER and D uses a LIVE DRUMMER.
so sampling from that in essence is still staying true to the methodology. When you sample a sample you in violation because you don't own the vinyl and its seen as lazy and not doing the work. its like making spagetti sauce straight out the can as opposed to making it FRESH!!!!
20. "RE: this is such a ghey argument" In response to Reply # 15
nah...im not with you on this one. you just trying to erase history. if you ask any of the idols in this thing no one downplays diggin. it is respected and diggers are respected. that is the basis for hip hop production and deejaying.
pete primo beatnuts qtip dilla madlib beatminerz rza kanye large pro d.i.t.c. prince paul dr. dre bomb squad marley marl just blaze
i could go on...
now gimme your list of producers who eschew diggin. lets see what that list looks like.
21. "hip-hop history is a long-ass line of evolution that's continuing" In response to Reply # 20
Do we really wanna get back to the *essence* of it?
No MPC's, no samplers, no DAWs, no NOTHING but two turntables, then.
That's all any of us should be working with. Period. Anything else is revisionism. That new Jay-z? Shitting on history, there was a synth in there and it was probably recorded on Pro Tools.
But no, we all have some common sense and realize that part of it is simple technological innovation. Had Run DMC had their hands on a laptop with Live 6 on it, they woulda been working it out on stage with a laptop with Live 6 on it in the back. Trigger finger and all. IMO, we get far more attached to the iconic aspects of hip-hop than the ol skool cats ever were when they were in the game.
The same goes for sampling philosophy. They weren't stuck on sampling old stuff, that's just what was there, and it wasn't old back then. At the same time, them cats weren't all stealing each other's nu-nu, either, so there was still a balance of good taste.
I've heard it said more than a couple times that hip-hop has always been about working with what you've got. That hasn't changed, has it?
27. "RE: hip-hop history is a long-ass line of evolution that's continuing" In response to Reply # 21 Mon Nov-05-07 01:47 PM by howardlloyd
i didnt say nuthin bout samplers or trigger fingers
i said diggin is the essence of deejaying and hip hop production (edit*** AND IT HAS NOT CHANGED. cuz the best still use records. including timbaland and any1 else you gonna name)
28. "u say the rules hurt the game" In response to Reply # 23
but its the opposite.
shit aint start sliding til puffy start wholesale violating the rules.
the whole diggin piece weeds out the fly by nights. now its too easy to get entry. buy a $20 sample CD and fruityloops and you good to go. its BS. so is your logic.
hip hop has not gotten better as cats laxed on the rules.
29. "it DOES hurt the genre" In response to Reply # 28
if i make a song and you or anyone else says.. oh he doesnt own that record.. and that takes away from the skill musicianship creativity imagination etc etc etc that i put into my piece of art than i feel that hurts the genre
the rules your applying to were set up to keep barriers of entry high
but they were imaginary and self concious
ppl hiding records and shit?
if its about skill then it wouldnt matter if you knew my sample sources
if im worried that you could do what i can do if you had my sources then that discredits the artform
btw.. you sound like a chump with all that..
"oh nice list" crap
be you
and dont assume because im making this argument that i dont subscribe to some versions of a lot of the "rules"
but i at least have the sense to realize they are complete and utter bullshit
30. "RE: it DOES hurt the genre" In response to Reply # 29 Mon Nov-05-07 02:50 PM by howardlloyd
its funny how u cant name a noteworthy producer who doesnt respect diggin
do u think thats a COINCIDENCE?
edit** and in rereading your post i realized something.
the rules aint for the fans...so yeah the fans dont care if kanye dont know his own jesus walks drums come from lou donaldson.
but other beatmakers...
like when u make music..you trying to impress the fans or other musicians??
my favorite part of style wars is when (insert name here; light skinned cat whos mother was dissing him) he talking to his moms and he like...it aint for you to understand...its for other writers.
when i make beats i'm trying to do stuff other beatsmiths would respect..cuz they the 1s who really know
31. "RE: it DOES hurt the genre" In response to Reply # 30
i mean even pharrel came in sampling maria muldair and folk...
where do u get your drums from if you dont have records??
laughs
sample cds are ghey fruity loops (the name says it all) calling the lou donaldson "its your thing" drums the "punks to get get beat down drums" (as kanye did) is ghey.
nobody with no records wants to battle anyone with records...in fact i'll go so far to say.. ITS ALL ABOUT THE RECORDS YOU HAVE
you can call it what u wanna
only fly by night johnny come latelys gonna agree with u
im not saying you cant snip a drum here and there (if i can tell you sampled the dilla/de la "peer pressure" drums you need to stop though). but at the end of the day u still gonna need records.
name some1... name 1 respected beatmaker who dont dig
50. "RE: on the serious...." In response to Reply # 49
its funny...so much is lost on the boards/internet.
i feel u on everything you say mostly.
but to downplay diggin is to go against a central concept in the world of hip hop production. its like calling yourself a christian and rejecting the trinity...its antithetical in my opinion. but we can agree to disagree. i only started going hard cuz u started ghey this and corny that.
the other point i need to make is...the difference in me and you disagreeing and me and marsalis (or other who would employ the 'you aint making music' argument) disagreeing = they are outsiders. they dnt like hip hop in the first place so their opinion is nothing.
every genre has rules if you want to see it or not. musical rules are never absolute but again they do exist. i mean who says you have to rap on a rap record..right????
i also dont feel im being fanatical. on those hip hop instrumentalist albums...endtroducing..heavy beats #1...there were disclaimers. all samples derived from original vinyl sources only..NO RESISSUES ..etc etc thats more extreme than what im saying.
can u make phat shit without records? yes...seen it done
but diggin is a part of hip hop
cats keep bringing up quest...and how many records he got?
thats all. i would go so far to say that diggin aint even rule. its a dscipline. writers need to read. beatmakers need to dig.
and i dont remember dissing anybodies MUSIC for not using records. i said sampling other cats drums is lazy (is that debatable?).
35. "Makin beats for other beatmakers is dumb, tho" In response to Reply # 30
Unless, of course, you ghost producing or some shit.
fuck i look like makin music for pete rock, or dilla, or any other beat maker to go....OOOOOOOOOO where he get that snare from? (Most drums are layered like hell these days anyway, so you never know, really) > >like when u make music..you trying to impress the fans or >other musicians?? > >my favorite part of style wars is when (insert name here; >light skinned cat whos mother was dissing him) he talking to >his moms and he like...it aint for you to understand...its for >other writers. > > >when i make beats i'm trying to do stuff other beatsmiths >would respect..cuz they the 1s who really know > >.
38. "RE: Makin beats for other beatmakers is dumb, tho" In response to Reply # 35
i can tell you are not an artist.
its not that you making it for them. but they are present in your mind "cats is gonna know i did this" .."cats gonna say i'm biting"...
other artists appreciate shit different. i know beatmakers hear donuts a whole nother way than the casual listener. dilla did that for other beatmakers/artists
if ya peers aint in ya mind. just do covers of massive hits that the "audience" will surely respond too. why bother to create at all?
go read the archives about questos "beat olympics" and the emphasis that is placed on "record selection". the reason dilla is considered the illest is cause he could flip anything...but at the end of the day he still dug up the dopest most obscure never before heard shit too.
im done. again. yall just trying to rewrite history.
and still have not named an acclaimed HIP HOP producer with no record stash.
41. "dilla is considered the illest by some folks, and not all" In response to Reply # 38
adhering to these arbitrary rules about beat selection is fuckin dumb.
Hell, dilla sampled Just Blaze's sample of a dioone warwick track. Not the warwick track, but the warwick flip of the track. That's a violation of like, 5 or 6 "hiphop rules" right there. But i don't give a fuck, cuz the end result was dope.
What about folks who don't sample at all? Or mix and match? How about timbo and neptunes who just consistently jack drums from each other, but drums are doper than 99% of anything anybody will ever do?
5. "When is the last time a RAPPER ever cared about these things?" In response to Reply # 0
Isn't that who the beats are made for? If it sounds hot and you find the right person to spit over it, little else matters. Your liable to go crazy if you spend too much time trying to approval from other producers on your techniques.
7. "Extreme? It's actually the opposite." In response to Reply # 6 Wed Oct-24-07 12:57 PM by micMajestic
People who are inclined to subject themselves to other producers rules and/or make beats that aren't really meant for a vocalist are the ones who actually fit the definition of extreme.
8. "That's extreme too, but it doesn't make your perspective any less so" In response to Reply # 7
Though of course that's all my opinion.
Just opposite extremes, is all.
One side, you have the concept that the beat is only a vehicle for the voice...quick way for beats to get repetitive and never establish a real vibe of their own. Other side, you have a joint all complexly chopped and following this tradition and using that particular break because ________ used it and having so much going on there's really no room for a voice.
But none of that is really for the emcee to worry about.
The middle ground may involve some sample layering here, switching up the drum pattern there, letting this section ride, dropping the bass over there, and on, where the producer can have some fun but still watch out for the fact that a voice will be the consistent leading sound. It's very possible to strike that balance in countless different combinations, and quite frankly, if the rapper doesn't care...well..who cares? Long as said rapper likes the beat, the enterprising producer will have the secret satisfaction of knowing a particular reference they used, or a special technique they perfected to get a certain sound to pop off, and all missions are accomplished.
10. "i dont think theres a problem" In response to Reply # 8
i mean, unless ur just looping the break, but every break i usei chop em down to kick snare hihat, and eq em so they sound different, i've only made 1 beat with a looped break beat, but only producers care about that really, rappers, not so much
17. "If it's OK to sample the drums off a let's say "Pete Rock" beat then..." In response to Reply # 0
why don't we pick up the instrumental and sample the horns, bassline, & eff it... why not just loop up "T.R.O.Y." and sell it as our own beat! It's the exact same thing as sampling another beatmakers drums. It's not about honor of sampling the original vinyl, it's about actually making the beat youself.
That's why the rule exists!
___________________________________________________________________________________ "John Wayne couldn't even stand the rain of the tek, and the tek be like dilla in the deck is lethal" - J dilla
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