As some of you know, I'm an English major. My specialty is studying the plays of William Shakespeare. As we've talked more about plays and movies based on plays recently, I thought it would be beneficial to make a post about Shakespeare. We can discuss which ones are good, which ones suck, which ones we just don't get, favorite characters, quotes, et cetera. Movies/performances you've seen are also fair game, not just the text.

Here's a list of the plays in the order that they were written.

Title Date Written Date Range First Published

The Comedy of Errors 1590 ? - 1594 1623
Titus Andronicus 1590 ? - 1594 1594
The Taming of the Shrew 1591 ? - 1594 1623
2 Henry VI 1591 ? - 1592 1594
3 Henry VI 1591 ? - 1592 1595
1 Henry VI 1592 ? - 1592 1623
Richard III 1592 1592 - 1597 1597
Love's Labor's Lost 1593 ? - 1597 1598
Two Gentlemen of Verona 1593 ? - 1598 1623
A Midsummer Night's Dream 1594 1594 - 1598 1600
Romeo and Juliet 1595 ? - 1597 1597
Richard II 1595 1595 - 1597 1597
King John 1596 ? - 1598 1623
The Merchant of Venice 1596 1594 - 1598 1600
Henry IV Part 1 1597 1595 - 1598 1598
The Merry Wives of Windsor 1597 1597 - 1602 1602
Henry IV Part 2 1598 1596 - 1598 1600
As You Like It 1598 1598 - 1600 1623
Henry V 1599 1599 1600
Much Ado About Nothing 1599 1598 - 1600 1600
Julius Caesar 1599 1598 - 1599 1623
Twelfth Night 1600 1600 - 1602 1623
Hamlet 1601 1599 - 1601 1603
Troilus and Cressida 1602 1601 - 1603 1609
All's Well That Ends Well 1603 1598 - ? 1623
Measure For Measure 1604 1598 - 1604 1623
Othello 1604 1598 - 1604 1622
King Lear 1605 1598 - 1606 1608
Macbeth 1605 1603 - 1611 1623
Antony and Cleopatra 1606 1598 - 1608 1623
Timon of Athens 1606 1598 - ? 1623
Pericles Prince of Tyre 1607 1598 - 1608 1609
Coriolanus 1608 1598 - ? 1623
Cymbeline 1609 1598 - 1611 1623
A Winter's Tale 1610 1598 - 1611 1623
The Tempest 1611 1610 - 1611 1623
Henry VIII 1613 1612 - 1613 1623

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The first Shakespeare play I was ever truly familiar with (aside from Romeo and Juliet). I did this play in 10th grade; I was Demetrius.

This is probably my favorite comedy. Not his best, but my favorite. There really isn't much in theatre, Shakespearean or contemporary, funnier than the mechanicals' play at the end.

Side note: the film with Kevin Kline is REALLY not good. However, there's apparently some B+W film with James Cagney as Bottom (!!!!) that exists. I've never seen it though.

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I love that "I'm a wall" soliloquy from that. Midsummer Night's Dream and Much Ado are big favorites of mine, along with Othello.

Pyramus and Thisbe scene= funniest scene in the Shakespeare comedies. It holds up surprisingly well with contemporary audiences, something you can't say about the wittiest of his scenes, which go over the head.

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The visuals and set design were just really amazing.

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and it wasnt very good either.

yeah, great play. probably..well..no its definitely not my fav comedy. i havent read a lot of them, but i'll go with taming of the shrew for 500, alex.

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I had to write a BIG-ASS paper for my IB Diploma in high school about the character of Falstaff, and in college I studied Henry IV Part 1 again. The first time I read these, they were boring as sin, aside from the Falstaff stuff, which is extremely funny/sad. However, with more study, my appreciation has grown for Part 1. All the stuff with the King and Hotspur are really interesting. Part 2 is really boring for the most part though.

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I can't say I'm particularly enjoying them. Personally, I'm not *that* big of a Shakespeare fan (especially considering that it is this class that is making me take an extra semester to graduate) and I'm really just

1. Waiting for Henry V so I can watch that Criterion of it and
2. Wishing that we could read some of his more exciting, more well-know plays like Macbeth or King Lear or Othello or something.

So yeah, basically all we talk about in class is Falstaff and honor, and whether or not we are supposed to sympathize w/ him or Hotspur, and whether Prince Hal will make a good king. My answer to those questions are as follows: Falstaff is a greedy lazy punk. Fuck him and his wit the King is right to banish him. Hal will be a horrible King b/c he will become Henry V and fight the Crusades. What an idiot.

This one is REALLY great. It'd be in my Top 3 historical plays. I haven't seen the play done, but both the movie version by Laurence Olivier (available on Criterion DVD) and the documentary "Looking For Richard" with Al Pacino are both very interesting. Clearly the Olivier one is better, with probably my favorite of Olivier's Shakespeare performances (his face just SCREAMS evil, so I love when he plays dark), but the Pacino one has lots of interesting things at play: how Shakespeare is relevant today, Pacino's passion for Shakespeare, et cetera. It also has Winona Ryder, who's kinda eh as Lady Anne, but Kevin Spacey, Alec Baldwin, and in particular HARRIS YULIN are great in it.

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>the movie
>version by Laurence Olivier (available on Criterion DVD) and
>the documentary "Looking For Richard" with Al Pacino are both
>very interesting. Clearly the Olivier one is better


have you seen the 1995 movie version? I think it stands above the Oliver version, even given the two weak links of Rbt Downey Jr. and Anette Bennings.

I haven't seen Looking for Richard though.

That's my theory.

Either Bacon or a society of playwrights.

Too scholarly to be some regala cat.

They dain't have internet back then.

Oh, and he nailed how crackaz feel about Orbit_Established in 'Othello'.

For real doe.


>As some of you know, I'm an English major. My specialty is
>studying the plays of William Shakespeare. As we've talked
>more about plays and movies based on plays recently, I thought
>it would be beneficial to make a post about Shakespeare. We
>can discuss which ones are good, which ones suck, which ones
>we just don't get, favorite characters, quotes, et cetera.
>Movies/performances you've seen are also fair game, not just
>the text.
>
>Here's a list of the plays in the order that they were
>written.
>
>Title Date Written Date Range First
>Published
>
>The Comedy of Errors 1590 ? - 1594 1623
>Titus Andronicus 1590 ? - 1594 1594
>The Taming of the Shrew 1591 ? - 1594 1623
>2 Henry VI 1591 ? - 1592 1594
>3 Henry VI 1591 ? - 1592 1595
>1 Henry VI 1592 ? - 1592 1623
>Richard III 1592 1592 - 1597 1597
>Love's Labor's Lost 1593 ? - 1597 1598
>Two Gentlemen of Verona 1593 ? - 1598 1623
>A Midsummer Night's Dream 1594 1594 - 1598 1600
>Romeo and Juliet 1595 ? - 1597 1597
>Richard II 1595 1595 - 1597 1597
>King John 1596 ? - 1598 1623
>The Merchant of Venice 1596 1594 - 1598 1600
>Henry IV Part 1 1597 1595 - 1598 1598
>The Merry Wives of Windsor 1597 1597 - 1602 1602
>Henry IV Part 2 1598 1596 - 1598 1600
>As You Like It 1598 1598 - 1600 1623
>Henry V 1599 1599 1600
>Much Ado About Nothing 1599 1598 - 1600 1600
>Julius Caesar 1599 1598 - 1599 1623
>Twelfth Night 1600 1600 - 1602 1623
>Hamlet 1601 1599 - 1601 1603
>Troilus and Cressida 1602 1601 - 1603 1609
>All's Well That Ends Well 1603 1598 - ? 1623
>Measure For Measure 1604 1598 - 1604 1623
>Othello 1604 1598 - 1604 1622
>King Lear 1605 1598 - 1606 1608
>Macbeth 1605 1603 - 1611 1623
>Antony and Cleopatra 1606 1598 - 1608 1623
>Timon of Athens 1606 1598 - ? 1623
>Pericles Prince of Tyre 1607 1598 - 1608 1609
>Coriolanus 1608 1598 - ? 1623
>Cymbeline 1609 1598 - 1611 1623
>A Winter's Tale 1610 1598 - 1611 1623
>The Tempest 1611 1610 - 1611 1623
>Henry VIII 1613 1612 - 1613 1623

but they musta been REALLY tightly knit...

cuz think. NOBODY wrote about this in any memoirs/diaries/family secrets/anything. You'd think someone EVENTUALLY woulda wanted to come out and say they were part of this landmark in literature and drama.

Also, there's proof a man named William Shakespeare who was a writer who existed in that era worked with the Globe Theater. Is it possible he's just the puppet for all the other playwrights? Sure. But again, it's tricky to pull off for so long.

FINALLY, there are so many similarities in all of the texts in styles, in the evolution of the language and the prose/iambic pentameter, in content, in character similarities, in references to previous plays...

...like I said, it's possible. And with Shakespeare being my specialty, I've read theories like yours. And there's some convincing things going on in those writings.

I just think it's too hard to pull off how tightly knit the complete works are and to keep this secret for so long. Throw in there's a real William Shakespeare who worked for the Globe who would've had to be involved, and he was gettin the glory as these other guys get swept under the rug?

It's just improbable to me. Possible, but improbable.

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I mean, everything you point out about how the plays were so consistent I can turn around and point out how improbable it was that a random dude who worked at a theatre would have that exxtensive a global knowledge, knowledge of several languages, knowledge of history, all this information that only the elite of the elites were privy to.

Like I said, wasn't no google back then.

Regala Brit cats didn't even know who the MOORS WERE. This cat not only knew who the Moors were, he knew it well enough to craft an entire play around, that nailed the nuances of race and racism.

Dude had to have been extraordinarily well educated to know all that.

Francis Bacon was one of the most learned cats of that era. Sure his schtic was philosophy of science/epistemology, but I'm saying tho.

Man, I dunno.






>cuz think. NOBODY wrote about this in any
>memoirs/diaries/family secrets/anything. You'd think someone
>EVENTUALLY woulda wanted to come out and say they were part of
>this landmark in literature and drama.
>
>Also, there's proof a man named William Shakespeare who was a
>writer who existed in that era worked with the Globe Theater.
>Is it possible he's just the puppet for all the other
>playwrights? Sure. But again, it's tricky to pull off for so
>long.
>
>FINALLY, there are so many similarities in all of the texts in
>styles, in the evolution of the language and the prose/iambic
>pentameter, in content, in character similarities, in
>references to previous plays...
>
>...like I said, it's possible. And with Shakespeare being my
>specialty, I've read theories like yours. And there's some
>convincing things going on in those writings.
>
>I just think it's too hard to pull off how tightly knit the
>complete works are and to keep this secret for so long. Throw
>in there's a real William Shakespeare who worked for the Globe
>who would've had to be involved, and he was gettin the glory
>as these other guys get swept under the rug?
>
>It's just improbable to me. Possible, but improbable.


----------------------------

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There's much text where he fucks up historical things, or uses the language improperly, and I think there's some geographical screw-up in Othello, so it's funny you say that.

I agree that Shakespeare would've needed to have been VERY well-read to write what/how he did. But since his knowledge isn't perfect?

...I dunno.

Bacon is pretty damn awesome tho.

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Go check it out for yourself:

http://shakespeareauthorship.com

And just so you know, the Bacon theory has been abandoned for some time. Now they propose that it was Edward de Vere, 17th Earl of Oxford. That site is really really good and informative, and if you enjoy rhetoric, Shakespeare, or conspiracy theories you will probably find things to enjoy there. I find the site's evidence to be pretty conclusive -- definitely more conclusive than their opposition's, the anti-Stratfordians.

>And just so you know, the Bacon theory has been abandoned for
>some time. Now they propose that it was Edward de Vere, 17th
>Earl of Oxford.


yeah, Bacon as Shakespeare has been shot full of holes.



>iand if you enjoy
>conspiracy theories



I'm not a fan of conspiracy theories, and I dislike when Shakspeare authorship discussions start sounding like X-Files material - I've heard a couple that do. The explanation of de Vere as author make simple sense without much of the flair of a conspiracy theory.

>I'm not a fan of conspiracy theories, and I dislike when
>Shakspeare authorship discussions start sounding like X-Files
>material - I've heard a couple that do. The explanation of de
>Vere as author make simple sense without much of the flair of
>a conspiracy theory.

Some of the De Vere stuff is sound, but there's definitely some arguments that start reaching. (Pretty much any argument where they start looking for codes or clues inside Shakespeare's plays). In the end though, the argument for De Vere is based on many of the same assumptions as the argument for Shakespeare, so it becomes much easier just to assume that the man is who we've always been told the man is.

There's been some good books written on de Vere - that website is just a summary.

I pretty much agree with this though:

>In the end though, the argument for De
>Vere is based on many of the same assumptions as the argument
>for Shakespeare, so it becomes much easier just to assume that
>the man is who we've always been told the man is.

like his father died, then he wrote hamlet, and stuff like that

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"There are obviously many things which we do not understand, and may never be able to." Leela

*puts emceeing in a box*

Cause, if so, he votes for Othello. The play that sparked my love for some Shakespeare. Hamlet is great but overrated. Othello is the real tragedy.

Is it bad if I identified with Iago the first time I ever read it?

bryan

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i read that shit in high school and identified with the nihilism.

full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.

« trifling ass nigga »

"come let me clutch thee..."

i used to live for that shit

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"I have given suck, and know
How tender 'tis to love the babe that milks me:
I would, while it was smiling in my face,
Have plucked my nipple from his boneless gums,
And dash'd the brains out, had I so sworn as you
Have done to this."

She's talking about taking a newborn baby, ripping it from the tits, and slamming his head all over the floor, his brains spilling.

Cooooold blooooodeeeeed (c) RJ

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I guess I just never identified with/really wanted to be anyone in Macbeth like I did Iago in Othello. I just wanted to be on some cold-blooded, "dance for me like the puppets you are" bullshit. But Macbeth is definitely in my top 3.

In fact... my top 5 are:
1. Othello
2. A Winter's Tale
3. Macbeth
4. Hamlet
5. Much Ado About Nothing

i narrowed it down- the most important line, and the turning point, is
"I dare do all that may become a man
Who dares do more is none."
(when his wife is taunting him about being too cowardly to kill the king)
He doesn't mean "no one's braver than me"
he means that he sees the limit of valour and daring
and that going beyond it is madness/immoral
so he realizes killing Duncan makes him less of a man, or not a man at all
but he does it anyway. so he's fully responsible for his own downfall

i loved how i could condense the whole play to one line

i was a bit thrown to find out recently, though, that there's actually a editorial discrepancy about that one. the folio says the above, the manuscript says "who dares NO more is none" or something like that. which completely changes it...

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*puts emceeing in a box*

nearly as much as king lear. i mean, i guess i like the premise..but seriously..fuck those witches or whatever they were..wtf?

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ended up with Chaucer, it's probably more fun talking about hot pokers up anus's and chefs who feed their employers stew made from their own puss anyways.

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not better, but certainly more entertaining. Canterbury Tales is one of the funniest works of fiction ever written.

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I'm not a Shakespeare scholar and havent read half the things listed there, but to quote my man Orson Welles, "I think Oxford (Edward de Vere) wrote Shakespeare. If you don't agree, there are some awfully funny coincidences to explain away."

That's neither here nor there when it comes to discussing his work, I just figured I'd do my part to rock this boat.

I'm a RICHARD III fan.

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Okay, this play becomes somewhat interesting after you start getting into the post-colonial debates surrounding poor little Caliban. Before we began arguing about whether Caliban was better for Prospero's presence or not, though, let's be honest: This play was boring and lame. Sure, it's kind of cute to read it as Shakespeare's farewell to the stage, but like many farewells it was boring and ultimately unnecessary.

Once we start focusing on Caliban, though, we get the pleasure of watching old white men get upset and we can actually start to wonder if Shakespeare was an early opponent of empire. This makes for interesting reading. Personally, I think Caliban is consciously presented as a critique of some of the imperialist attitudes present at the time, even if the play does come around to re-enforce the natural order of civilized over savage.

Anyway, if you don't know anything about post-colonial theory, I highly recommend against reading / watching this play.

Just like many British actors becomes more comfortable with age, so does Shakespeare with his language. Some of Caliban's speeches are among the most brilliant things he's ever written. It's just absurdist, magical, and lots of fun.

And I agree on the post-colonial theory stuff. I spent a week studying nothing but Caliban when I took a Shakespeare class, and how he related to the imperialist nature of the times.

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not much happens in this one -- outside of Caliban and the interesting points of view presented within the play. But without the discussion of Caliban you don't have much: Aristocrats land on island ruled by desposed Prospero, Prospero meddles, weak romance blooms, crisis is averted at the end, Prospero repents and all is well. I'd rather have the blood of Macbeth or Othello, or the psychological drama of Hamlet, or the real romance of Romeo and Juliet, etc.

So in the end, though, do you think Shakespeare was critical of colonial attitudes, supportive of them, or just having a little mini-debate inside the play before resetting everything to the order it should be?

King Lear, Cymbeline, A Winter's Tale and Measure for Measure are my favorites. I wish I had seen Christopher Plummer's King Lear at Stratford last year or the year before or whatever it was. Apparently it was one of the best Lear's ever. Speaking of Stratford, I'm heading up there at the end of October. My company is doing a retrospective on William Hutt for the CBC and I have the good fortune of seeing his final performance before he retires. Too bad he's going out in The Tempest, which is a pretty lame effort in my opinion.

A Winter's Tale isn't one of my favorites, but Cymbeline and Measure for Measure are two of his greatest plays I think, even over some of his better known stuff (Much Ado About Nothing or Love's Labours Lost, for example).

I'll probably make separate replies about Cymbeline and Measure for Measure, in hopes of calling attention to two of his most underrated plays. Cloten is one of my favorite Shakespeare characters-- just a dumb funny asshole who wouldn't think twice before raping a chick.

King Lear, as I stated below, is my favorite of the four big-name tragedies, and I think it's a shame that it's normally held in lower regard by the masses than Hamlet, Macbeth, or Othello. I would've LOVED to see Chris Plummer in it, I think that would've been absolutely incredible.

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http://www.theglobeandmail.com/series/theatre_2002/stratford/lear.html

clearly stole everything from a black man" Aaron McGruger....made me chuckle.

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"I'd like to quit thinking of the present, like right now, as some minor, insignificant preamble to somethin' else."

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This may be more obvious than MacBeth, but it has always been my favorite.

I've seen it a few times.



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way ahead of his time. Translate any ONE of his works into modern times and it would fit.

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Im always pissed because every few years Hollywood does a reworking of Taming of the Shrew>>Deliver Us From Eva, 10 Things I hate about You. But to me none of them does that play justice. Shakespears satirical element is left untouched. It was simple awesome. Midsummer Nights Dream is also one of my favorite comedies to read. In Shakespeare he never left a doubt what he was sayin, that is if you werent to lazy to interpret the language. He was the king of showing and not telling the elements of his stories.

10 years strong and still havent made 1000 posts...wow...lol

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Adapted from Henry IV & V, Richard II, Merry Wives of Windsor.

Also, Welles' "Othello" and "Macbeth."

I don't usually have the imagination or energy to really read plays, but nothing dumps me right into the middle of what it was like to live in eraly modernity like King Lear. I realize that he's working with some pre-Christian legendary time, but the absolute terror that the world could come flying off its hinges at any moment comes straight out of early modernity. The possibility that God doesn't have any particular obligation to preserve the current order was a pretty scary proposition. I suppose that's not so scary anymore. We know everything know. Like history's 19 year olds.

Calvin is the only other person who expresses this terror like King Lear does. But he's just so... Calvin that it's not nearly as much fun.

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I think that this play above even the other 3 "big-name tragedies" has gorgeous language. There is just so much in this play that I love. I'd say that currently it's my favorite of the tragedies.

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The rhetorical prowess of Henry V in that play is mind-blowing. He took ‘words like swords’ to a new level and could battle any emcee or politician into submission.

His monologues alone make that play an amazing read.

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Be your own savior.

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thank God for my Honors English Teacher. she really helped me understand the pain, intricacies, and beauty of the Bard.

anywho, Macbeth is my fav play... so much so that i can recite the "tomorrow, and tomorrow and tomorrow" upon request.

the violence. the seduction. every character's tragic flaw... i love it all. not to mention it's so beautiful.

~K

.:Southern Belle::Magnolia Smell:.

there is no kristy - only zool.

(Dude was like an Elizabethan era E-40!!!!)

http://shakespeare.about.com/library/weekly/aa042400a.htm

So was half the dialogue just gibberish to the audience?

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It's mainly just compounding words, moving different parts of speech around, and generally word play (combining suffixes and prefixes). This type of thing goes on in speech and writing all the time, Shakespeare just gets credit for it b/c his writing is such a critical piece in our literary and cultural history that all of his word play became official.

So basically the only thing keeping 'ballalicious' out of the Oxford English Dictionary is 'CISM!!

----
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I was Thisby in Midsummer and I'm going to be Tybalt in about a month. I love it love it love. Let's keep this goin'.

Othello was whiny "distrust of difference" crap centuries ahead of American History X.

With a better director.

--Maurice

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