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Subject: "So I'm crying, watching Malcolm X" This topic is locked.
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Nettrice
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Thu Jun-23-11 11:56 AM

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"So I'm crying, watching Malcolm X"


  

          

Again. After all this time Spike Lee's film still brings me to tears. In the theater I had to be consoled by strangers. No other film has ever made me get so emotional. I forget how much Spike Lee struggled to get the film made but it remains for the ages. The film has flaws but overall, it's a triumph IMHO.

I can't think of any other films right now with a commercial/mainstream release that have honored a Black leader, hero, or heroine in such an epic way.

Any others I'm missing?

<--- Blame this lady for Nutty.

  

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Topic Outline
Subject Author Message Date ID
I just caught it for the first time too.
Jun 04th 2006
1
read his autobiography penned by Alex Haley
Jun 04th 2006
2
Will do.
Jun 04th 2006
4
RE: Will do.
Jun 04th 2006
7
Interesting.
Jun 04th 2006
8
      RE: Interesting.
Jun 04th 2006
11
           RE: Interesting.
Jun 04th 2006
12
                RE: Interesting.
Jun 04th 2006
13
yeah alex haley the author of roots
Jun 04th 2006
9
I'm getting this book when I get a chance.
Jun 04th 2006
10
Just in case you were still wondering...
Jun 06th 2006
55
one of the only books I ever read front to back and thoroughly
Jun 05th 2006
19
      I looked for it today but couldn't find it.
Jun 05th 2006
40
RE: I just caught it for the first time too.
Jun 04th 2006
5
same here mayn
Jun 04th 2006
3
RE: same here mayn
Jun 04th 2006
6
auuuugh that fucking Sam Cooke part
Jun 05th 2006
16
me and you both
Jun 12th 2006
87
RE: same here mayn
Jun 05th 2006
18
and he's so optimistic...
Jun 05th 2006
36
That part got my mom too
Jun 11th 2006
82
"if you black and don't like this movie
Jun 04th 2006
14
It's so damn flawed, like most Spike movies........
Jun 05th 2006
15
I feel ya pain man...hearing the Euology at the end
Jun 05th 2006
17
I'm showing it to my students this summer
Jun 05th 2006
20
Very good
Jun 05th 2006
21
      I'm leaning towards showing the movie after we read the book
Jun 05th 2006
26
      yea you should do that.
Jun 05th 2006
38
      Question:
Jun 06th 2006
42
           My answer
Jun 06th 2006
44
           Because Malcom was evolving into a leader that would of
Jun 11th 2006
79
Its a masterpiece. Everytime I watch it over and over again....
Jun 05th 2006
22
I get too emotional to watch it over and over
Jun 05th 2006
29
      RE: I get too emotional to watch it over and over
Jun 05th 2006
30
           RE: I get too emotional to watch it over and over
Jun 05th 2006
31
none with that same power and depth, no.
Jun 05th 2006
23
RE: So I'm crying, watching Malcolm X
Jun 05th 2006
24
Thanks.
Jun 05th 2006
25
me and the lady watched it Sunday morning too
Jun 05th 2006
27
RE: me and the lady watched it Sunday morning too
May 07th 2007
92
so my roommate....
Jun 05th 2006
28
If you guys watch the movies
Jun 05th 2006
37
what flaws do people have with it?
Jun 05th 2006
32
the movies length and the musical elements are the ones i hear most
Jun 05th 2006
33
It doesn't feel that long and the music was great. The songs and...
Jun 05th 2006
34
      take it up with the people that have a problem with it.
Jun 06th 2006
49
           I don't have a problem with it. I know its a good movie. But because...
Jun 06th 2006
51
                i love the movie, but this...
Jun 06th 2006
56
gross simplification
Jun 05th 2006
35
I didn't know Baldwin had anything to do with the film...
May 07th 2007
94
I remember critics
Jun 05th 2006
39
Most critics believe the everything about the film is the director's res...
May 07th 2007
95
well, some of the factual errors are glaring
Jun 05th 2006
41
My main problem with the flick is
Jun 06th 2006
43
      RE: My main problem with the flick is
Jun 06th 2006
45
           RE: My main problem with the flick is
Jun 06th 2006
46
                RE: My main problem with the flick is
Jun 06th 2006
47
                     RE: My main problem with the flick is
Jun 06th 2006
48
                          RE: My main problem with the flick is
Jun 06th 2006
50
                               Wait a minute...
Jun 06th 2006
52
                                    RE: Wait a minute...
Jun 06th 2006
53
                                         Ahaaah!
Jun 06th 2006
54
                                              Good response
Jun 06th 2006
57
                                              Here we go...
Jun 07th 2006
58
                                                   RE: Here we go...
Jun 07th 2006
59
                                                   RE: Here we go...
Jun 07th 2006
61
                                                        RE: Here we go...
Jun 07th 2006
65
                                                             RE: Here we go...
Jun 09th 2006
76
                                                                  Power of nightmares
Jun 09th 2006
77
                                                                       RE: Power of nightmares
Jun 11th 2006
83
                                                                            RE: Power of nightmares
Jun 12th 2006
85
                                                   Interesting...
Jun 07th 2006
60
                                                        RE: Interesting...
Jun 07th 2006
63
                                                             Now here goes the marathon. lol....
Jun 08th 2006
66
                                                                  This part
Jun 08th 2006
67
                                                                  Did you see "Malcolm X" the documentary with James Earl Jones...
Jun 08th 2006
68
                                                                       Nope didn't see it
Jun 08th 2006
69
                                                                            I'll post a clip of it later this evening.
Jun 08th 2006
70
                                                                                 Cool
Jun 08th 2006
72
                                                                                      Pefect Timing, my friend...
Jun 08th 2006
73
                                                                                      Thanks so much!
Jun 08th 2006
74
                                                                  No need for marathons...
Jun 11th 2006
78
                                                                       No marathon. More like the Tour De France. lol
Jun 11th 2006
80
                                                                            if i may add on to this convo
Jun 11th 2006
84
                                                                            this was probably the best exchange
May 06th 2007
88
                                                                                 indeed...that was quite a discussion
May 06th 2007
90
WE AGREE ON SOMETHING! :)
Jun 07th 2006
62
I disagree that we agree
Jun 07th 2006
64
In the movie, Malcolm actually had the right numbers
Jun 08th 2006
71
I broke down too and reading the book you see many things
Jun 09th 2006
75
X was just a damn good movie, period
Jun 11th 2006
81
I cant even front........
Jun 12th 2006
86
now i always tear up when i hear "A Change Gonna Come"
May 06th 2007
89
Has anyone actually read "One day when I was lost"?
May 07th 2007
91
I read it years ago during my serious Baldwin phase
May 08th 2007
101
just saw this this week for the first time.
May 07th 2007
93
My biggest fear about the film came alive in front of me...
May 07th 2007
96
RE: My biggest fear about the film came alive in front of me...
May 08th 2007
97
RE: excellent film
May 08th 2007
102
i usually dont like posting in long posts, but movie blows
May 08th 2007
99
THe movie was great tho and it gets people to read the book
May 08th 2007
100
      i think the
May 09th 2007
105
     
May 09th 2007
104
man, too true
May 09th 2007
106
archive?
May 09th 2007
108
RE: archive?
May 09th 2007
109

JRennolds
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Sun Jun-04-06 10:22 PM

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1. "I just caught it for the first time too."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

The movie was very powerful and I'm really anxious to learn about Malcom X. With that said, the ending of the movie felt rushed...

GOMD

  

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Samurai_Shampoo
Member since Oct 25th 2004
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Sun Jun-04-06 10:37 PM

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2. "read his autobiography penned by Alex Haley"
In response to Reply # 1


          

it's a must. and damn good reading too.
____________________________________________________________

get cakey.

http://www.myspace.com/samurai_shampoo

  

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JRennolds
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Sun Jun-04-06 10:42 PM

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4. "Will do."
In response to Reply # 2


  

          

Alex Haley, the author of Roots?

Like the end of the movie implied, he has been erased from the history books. I've only caught small mentions of him throughout my years of school. I respect him, because although he changed his opinions, he was willing to die for what he believed in. One of my really great friends used to be in The Nation of Islam but I'm afraid to approach the subject because he left it and I don't want to put our friendship in jeopardy.

GOMD

  

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Nettrice
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Sun Jun-04-06 10:47 PM

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7. "RE: Will do."
In response to Reply # 4


  

          

>One of my really great friends used to be in The
>Nation of Islam but I'm afraid to approach the subject because
>he left it and I don't want to put our friendship in
>jeopardy.

Hmmmm...my high school mentor was a teenager in the NOI when Malcolm X was gunned down. He left the Nation when Malcolm X was killed and became a true Muslim. I am not Muslim but he taught me so much.

<--- Blame this lady for Nutty.

  

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JRennolds
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Sun Jun-04-06 10:52 PM

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8. "Interesting."
In response to Reply # 7


  

          

My real good friend is Muslim too. So, does the Nation of Islam still exist how do black people in general percieve it? Do Muslims look down upon it? Again, I could ask my friend these questions but it is a very touchy subject for him.

GOMD

  

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Nettrice
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Sun Jun-04-06 11:02 PM

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11. "RE: Interesting."
In response to Reply # 8
Sun Jun-04-06 11:05 PM by Nettrice

  

          

>My real good friend is Muslim too. So, does the Nation of
>Islam still exist

Very much so.

>how do black people in general percieve it?

I have to admit that the NOI has casted a weird shadow since Malcolm X's death. Some people defend the NOI but I know people who left the Nation after his murder, esp. because he was allegedly murdered by NOIs from No. 25.

Here's something jambone wrote in okayactivist:

"Farrakhan slights Malcolm every chance he gets in one breath, but then talks about how great Malcolm is in another. Farrakhan will never be Malcolm, and it eats at Farrakhan's soul daily. So, all that work the NOI did to get Malcolm out of the Nation backfired because Malcolm became even bigger in life and bigger after his death.

The whole irony is that Malcolm recruited Farrakhan into the Nation in 1955. Malcolm taught and trained Farrakhan as a minister. Malcolm referred to Farrakhan as his "little brother". Malcolm taught Farrakhan's eldest daughter her ABC's. They were so intertwined. Farrakhan has often said Malcolm taught him how to be man. Malcolm was the father figure he never had. If you watch all of the old footage of "Make it Plain" and other old documentaries, you will see a young Farrakhan lurking in the background because he was Malcolm's understudy. Malcolm even mentions how talented and great Farrakhan was in his autobiography.

Yet, it was Farrakhan who betrayed Malcolm in quest for power in the Nation. It was Farrakhan who was one of the main people who plotted to get him out of the NOI. It was Farrakhan who slandered Malcolm in Muhammad Speaks after Malcolm was kicked out of the Nation (Malcolm did not leave the Nation). And it was Farrakhan who was present at the Newark Mosque the day Malcolm was assassinated by members of the Newark Mosque in New York. And it was Farrakhan who took Malcolm's place as being the NOI's National Spokesman." (jambone, from okayplayer.com)

>Do Muslims look down upon it? Again, I could ask my friend
>these questions but it is a very touchy subject for him.

I can see why. I was able to talk openly about it with my mentor. I think he looked down on the actions of the NOI and the part they played in the death of Malcolm X. You should also look into COINTELPRO.

"COINTELPRO is an acronym for a series of FBI counterintelligence programs designed to neutralize political dissidents. Although covert operations have been employed throughout FBI history, the formal COINTELPRO's of 1956-1971 were broadly targeted against radical political organizations." - http://www.icdc.com/~paulwolf/cointelpro/cointel.htm

My theory is the NOI sold Malcolm X out to protect their organization or get the FBI off their backs. They used his "chickens come home to roost" comment as an excuse to silence him but that did not work, so I think some negotiating went on behind Malcolm X's back. But that's my theory (and I'm sticking to it).

<--- Blame this lady for Nutty.

  

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JRennolds
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Sun Jun-04-06 11:17 PM

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12. "RE: Interesting."
In response to Reply # 11


  

          

Thanks alot for all of th background knowledge.

>"COINTELPRO is an acronym for a series of FBI
>counterintelligence programs designed to neutralize political
>dissidents. Although covert operations have been employed
>throughout FBI history, the formal COINTELPRO's of 1956-1971
>were broadly targeted against radical political
>organizations." -
>http://www.icdc.com/~paulwolf/cointelpro/cointel.htm
>
>My theory is the NOI sold Malcolm X out to protect their
>organization or get the FBI off their backs. They used his
>"chickens come home to roost" comment as an excuse to silence
>him but that did not work, so I think some negotiating went on
>behind Malcolm X's back. But that's my theory (and I'm
>sticking to it).
>

This is the impression that I got but I didn't want to make any generalizations off of a movie. I have never heard of COINTELPRO before but I also have a couple conspiracy theories of my own. With that said, everyone should fight for their rights or beliefs no matter how others feel.

I went to the anti-immigration rally (in the midst of the pro rally) here in Denver and lost a good friend in the process because I ran into him (he's a Mexican immigrant "pro-illegal amnesty") and told him how I felt about the whole issue and he has since shunned me. I can't begin to imagine how that would feel being in the public eye on a much larger scale, Malcom was made of steel.

Before I get off my soapbox, I'll leave you with one thing: people who complain are lazy, people who take action make strides.

GOMD

  

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Nettrice
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Sun Jun-04-06 11:33 PM

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13. "RE: Interesting."
In response to Reply # 12


  

          

>Thanks alot for all of th background knowledge.

No problem. I did not want it to look like it was just the NOI.

>This is the impression that I got but I didn't want to make
>any generalizations off of a movie. I have never heard of
>COINTELPRO

That's a shame...well now you know.

>before but I also have a couple conspiracy theories
>of my own. With that said, everyone should fight for their
>rights or beliefs no matter how others feel.

I have to say that reading Haley's book was life changing for me and I was only 15.

>I can't begin to imagine how that would
>feel being in the public eye on a much larger scale, Malcom
>was made of steel.

Me, neither.

>Before I get off my soapbox, I'll leave you with one thing:
>people who complain are lazy, people who take action make
>strides.

Yeah and it's also important to start from your corner. Act because you feel it, not because other people say so.

Now, I am off my soapbox.

<--- Blame this lady for Nutty.

  

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mc_delta_t
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Sun Jun-04-06 10:52 PM

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9. "yeah alex haley the author of roots"
In response to Reply # 4


  

          

he often credits malcom x, and the experience writing "the autobiography of malcom x" with getting him to learn about his past, which led to him writing "Roots"

  

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JRennolds
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Sun Jun-04-06 10:55 PM

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10. "I'm getting this book when I get a chance."
In response to Reply # 9


  

          

Thanks for the info.

GOMD

  

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dao_rida
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Tue Jun-06-06 04:05 PM

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55. "Just in case you were still wondering..."
In response to Reply # 4


  

          

>Alex Haley, the author of Roots?
>

Yes.

Great book, great movie.

__________________________________
The man. The myth. The Ruiz.

  

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kelvinmercerlookalike
Member since Jan 08th 2006
6021 posts
Mon Jun-05-06 07:54 AM

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19. "one of the only books I ever read front to back and thoroughly"
In response to Reply # 2


  

          

enjoyed every minute of it. I straight picked it up and couldn't put it down until I was finished.

even of you're not into biographies, I truly recommend this. It made me reevaluate my life.

  

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JRennolds
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Mon Jun-05-06 10:46 PM

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40. "I looked for it today but couldn't find it."
In response to Reply # 19


  

          

I will probaly cop it later this week if they have it at my reliable outlet in Cherry Creek North, I hope.

GOMD

  

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Nettrice
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Sun Jun-04-06 10:43 PM

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5. "RE: I just caught it for the first time too."
In response to Reply # 1


  

          

>The movie was very powerful and I'm really anxious to learn
>about Malcom X. With that said, the ending of the movie felt
>rushed...

My 7th grade English teacher gave me The Autobiography of Malcolm X and my colleague's father was his personal photographer in the later years, up to his death. Me and my partner in crime used to listen to Malcolm X's speeches when we were freshmen. Hearing them through Denzel Washington was amazing. Washington was riveting as Malcolm X.

About the ending:

I loved that Ossie was able to re-read his eulogy at the end and I think the ending was rushed for a couple of reasons. From imdb.com:

"The film's estimated budget was $34 million. Budget battles plagued the production from the beginning. Initially, director Spike Lee had requested $33 million for the film, a reasonable sum considering the size and scope of the project but far greater than his previous budgets. Additionally, his five previous films combined grossed less than $100 million domestically. As a result of this (and the studio's reluctance to fund black-themed material), Warner Bros. only offered $20 million for a two-hour and 15-minute film, plus an additional $8 million from Largo Entertainment for the foreign rights. When the film went $5 million over budget, Lee kicked in most of his salary, but failed to keep the financiers from shutting down post-production. Lee went public with his battles and raised funds from celebrity friends, such as Oprah Winfrey, Michael Jordan, and Bill Cosby to regain control of his embattled project. Warner eventually kicked in more funds after a positive screening of a rough cut."

and

"Spike Lee removed any mention of Louis Farrakhan from Malcolm X (1992) after receiving specific, direct threats from him."

I think pressure from the studio and threats prevented Spike Lee from doing more at the end of the film. Plus, how can you really express on film Malcolm X's legacy? There are so many things that could have happened if he had lived. I think it was too tall an order even for Lee.

<--- Blame this lady for Nutty.

  

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mashpg89
Member since Dec 08th 2004
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Sun Jun-04-06 10:39 PM

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3. "same here mayn"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

and i feel no shame in saying that was the only movie i ever cried in...sam cooke dawg. I felt so angry too.

  

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Nettrice
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Sun Jun-04-06 10:44 PM

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6. "RE: same here mayn"
In response to Reply # 3


  

          

>and i feel no shame in saying that was the only movie i ever
>cried in...sam cooke dawg. I felt so angry too.

Strangers had to hold me down! I was outta control.

<--- Blame this lady for Nutty.

  

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buckshot defunct
Member since May 02nd 2003
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Mon Jun-05-06 12:44 AM

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16. "auuuugh that fucking Sam Cooke part"
In response to Reply # 3


  

          

Gets me every time

-----------------------------
http://talestosuffice.com/
@kennykeil

  

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TIMP
Member since Dec 26th 2004
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Mon Jun-12-06 10:37 AM

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87. "me and you both"
In response to Reply # 16


          

its such a powerful scene

<----holler at a player when you see him in the streets (c)Stuart Scott

www.brucegeetz1.bandcamp.com
http://brucegeetz.blogspot.com/

  

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ILL FLOW
Member since Nov 16th 2004
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Mon Jun-05-06 04:14 AM

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18. "RE: same here mayn"
In response to Reply # 3


  

          

i won't front, when he's walking to the mosque and the lady stops him and gives praise. i turn. i don't wanna see the rest.

can't help it

http://oneyoungsta.com/

  

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mashpg89
Member since Dec 08th 2004
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Mon Jun-05-06 03:50 PM

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36. "and he's so optimistic..."
In response to Reply # 18


  

          

and then she drops the "faith in jesus" line...my heart crushed.

  

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0NE L0VE
Member since Oct 21st 2003
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Sun Jun-11-06 07:37 PM

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82. "That part got my mom too"
In response to Reply # 3


  

          

I saw it w/ her when I was a teen.

I didn't understand then, but I saw it a while ago and it was really sad.

_____________________________
"If you had any idea who I was, or what I've done in the past, you'd know that i'm not bluffing."
-Jack fukking Bauer


www.vondarrien.wordpress.com
http://twitter.com/Vondarrien

  

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kayru99
Member since Jan 26th 2004
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Sun Jun-04-06 11:33 PM

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14. ""if you black and don't like this movie"
In response to Reply # 0


          

you will never be invited to any barbeque i'm ever involved in"(C) my ex-girl.

Great GREAT flick

  

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mc_delta_t
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Mon Jun-05-06 12:28 AM

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15. "It's so damn flawed, like most Spike movies........"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

yet I can't help but REALLY like it

  

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BlacKnightSC
Member since Feb 10th 2004
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Mon Jun-05-06 01:02 AM

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17. "I feel ya pain man...hearing the Euology at the end"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

by Ossie Davis really tested me, and I had to let a tear roll down my face

Brooklyn...home to the illest emcees in the world. Aint no other city fucking with us.

  

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TheMindFrame
Member since Jan 17th 2003
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Mon Jun-05-06 08:49 AM

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20. "I'm showing it to my students this summer"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

I'm teaching a course titled "Individual and Society", looking specifically at how people react to oppression. The two main texts are going to be the Autobiography and 1984.


Do you think the movie will go well with 9th-10th graders?

Sua Sponte

Tuam Sequere Naturam


A story: A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands, love a

  

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Nettrice
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Mon Jun-05-06 09:08 AM

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21. "Very good"
In response to Reply # 20


  

          

>Do you think the movie will go well with 9th-10th graders?

Yes but make sure to have a discussion with them. They need to understand why he was killed.

<--- Blame this lady for Nutty.

  

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TheMindFrame
Member since Jan 17th 2003
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26. "I'm leaning towards showing the movie after we read the book"
In response to Reply # 21


  

          


Gives me a few more options

Sua Sponte

Tuam Sequere Naturam


A story: A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands, love a

  

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mashpg89
Member since Dec 08th 2004
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38. "yea you should do that."
In response to Reply # 26


  

          

i'm a sophomore in high school and i read this book in 8th grade and this year too. It's definitely my favorite book and really changed my life. You should have them read the book first, because theres a strong possibility that if they watch the movie first, they will be bored with the book cause they already know what's going on (since movies are much more entertaining to people my age). Also let them read ahead, cause I read this in like 3 days.

  

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CaptainRook
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42. "Question:"
In response to Reply # 21


  

          

Why was he killed?

<<<<"Nothings more attractive than a heavy praying woman" © Andre 3000

  

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Nettrice
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44. "My answer"
In response to Reply # 42


  

          

>Why was he killed?

After his rift with the NOI Malcolm X became a true Muslim and, as El-Hajj Malik El-Shabazz, he returned to the U.S. and founded the U.S. branch of the Organization of Afro-American Unity. The OAAU resolved to establish a non-religious and non-sectarian program for human rights.

IMO the stage was being set for Shabazz to address the world which threated the status quo in the U.S. It was easy to label Malcolm X as a reactionary, or a demagogue within the gates of the U.S. but in his new role he was positioned to build bridges and advocate for human rights all over the globe. This would have eventually led to the toppling of the U.S. as a world power. I think Shabazz was transcending the limits of U.S. politics and this made his the biggest threat of all.

<--- Blame this lady for Nutty.

  

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Frank Castle
Member since Dec 18th 2002
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79. "Because Malcom was evolving into a leader that would of"
In response to Reply # 42


  

          

changed alot of shit for the common man which made him a threat. I think MLK was evolving too after his church turned on him cause in one of his final speech(?) he said "I see the light." If those 2 brothers would of gotten together, man I couldn't begin to tell you the changes they would make. I also think Tupac Shakur would of been the black leader we've been wanting for many years cause he related to the people unlike Farrakhan which I like but but he's just too one dimentional(spelling)

DAMN!

  

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jambone
Member since Aug 08th 2005
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22. "Its a masterpiece. Everytime I watch it over and over again...."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

...it gets better. Spike gave everything to this project creatively. You could tell because I think it took all of his energy. He went through a whole lot just to get the film made. It took him a while to recover and you could see it in his films right after Malcolm X (Crooklyn, Clockers, Girl 6).

Reading the autobiography is a must. Its funny, it eye-opening, its a lot of stuff in there that you don't here about or see in a lot of research about Malcolm. You really get into the depths of Malcolm in the book. The movie is based on the book,but the some of the characters are fictional in the movie (like Baines) and some of the story is changed that differ from the book.

<--- we've got bush!

  

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Nettrice
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29. "I get too emotional to watch it over and over"
In response to Reply # 22


  

          

BTW I quoted you in #11.

>The movie is based
>on the book,but the some of the characters are fictional in
>the movie (like Baines) and some of the story is changed that
>differ from the book.

Yeah but I see some of those characters (like Baines) as composites. Spike Lee had a lot of pressure on him and threats from Farakkhan forced him to be more creative.

<--- Blame this lady for Nutty.

  

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jambone
Member since Aug 08th 2005
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30. "RE: I get too emotional to watch it over and over"
In response to Reply # 29


  

          

>BTW I quoted you in #11.
>
>>The movie is based
>>on the book,but the some of the characters are fictional in
>>the movie (like Baines) and some of the story is changed
>that
>>differ from the book.
>
>Yeah but I see some of those characters (like Baines) as
>composites. Spike Lee had a lot of pressure on him and
>threats from Farakkhan forced him to be more creative.
>


Oh yeah, I got no problems with it. I don't know about the Farrakhan thing, though. I remember reading in an interview where the Farrakhan issue was brought up. Spike was like and I'm paraphrasing "he (Farrakhan) knows not to f*ck with me". Meaning, Farrakhan had little bearing on what he decided to put in the film.

I think the Baines character was great and was a collective symbol of what the Nation had represented in Malcom's beginning and right when he was about to leave the NOI. It was great.

<--- we've got bush!

  

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Nettrice
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31. "RE: I get too emotional to watch it over and over"
In response to Reply # 30


  

          

>I don't know about the
>Farrakhan thing, though. I remember reading in an interview
>where the Farrakhan issue was brought up. Spike was like and
>I'm paraphrasing "he (Farrakhan) knows not to f*ck with me".

I remember this, too. Actually, I think it was another guy who threatened Spike but it's been a while...

>I think the Baines character was great and was a collective
>symbol of what the Nation had represented in Malcom's
>beginning and right when he was about to leave the NOI. It was
>great.

I agree.

<--- Blame this lady for Nutty.

  

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southqueens
Member since Jul 20th 2005
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Mon Jun-05-06 09:56 AM

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23. "none with that same power and depth, no."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

the new sig-

"When you know that the life and spirit of others depend on your life and spirit, you have no right to be afraid - even when you are terribly afraid."

-Sembene Ousmane

  

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okayplaya
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24. "RE: So I'm crying, watching Malcolm X"
In response to Reply # 0


          

Co-Sign on the Sam Cooke...one of the most heartbreaking sequences in film.

If you've read Haley's book, you'll want to check out a new Malcom X biography coming out in 2008. It's being written by Manning Marable, a professor of History and African-American studies at Columia.

Here's a link to a great interview he did last year around the 40th anniversary of X's tragic assassination.

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=05/02/21/1458213

I won't post the text b/c it's really long, but take the time to read it if you're seriously interested.

  

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jambone
Member since Aug 08th 2005
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25. "Thanks."
In response to Reply # 24


  

          

<--- we've got bush!

  

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Esco
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27. "me and the lady watched it Sunday morning too"
In response to Reply # 0


          

everytime i watch it its like i've renewed my Blackness.

I'm scared to watch Rosewood now though. i may go angry Black on somebody.

  

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ScooterBj
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92. "RE: me and the lady watched it Sunday morning too"
In response to Reply # 27


          

My hubby and I joke about the way she says the N-word (scene where she says it was a black man to save her butt). But, that movie pisses me off so. I don't think I have watched that movie since 99. It's so powerful.

  

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bleekgilliam_420
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28. "so my roommate...."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

has never seen this movie (or roots for that matter) but swears by ray. i STILL havent seen ray but i tell him that i still think malcolm shits on ray. hes not trying to hear me tho.

---------------------------------------

http://twitter.com/malael

  

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tappenzee
Member since Sep 28th 2002
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37. "If you guys watch the movies"
In response to Reply # 28


  

          

Your opinions will be more valid

  

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Gemini_Two_One
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32. "what flaws do people have with it?"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Is it with the film making or details Spike added or left out of Macolm's life?


!sig!
www.myspace.com/gemini2one
http://groups.myspace.com/snakesonplane

"I noticed your CD for .99 cent, what,
blanks CDs are a dollar fifty, you'd make more if you shut the fuck up!" - Chino XL

  

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bignick
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33. "the movies length and the musical elements are the ones i hear most"
In response to Reply # 32


  

          

  

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jambone
Member since Aug 08th 2005
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34. "It doesn't feel that long and the music was great. The songs and..."
In response to Reply # 33


  

          

...blanchard did a were great.

Those who had a problem with the movie have a problem with Spike. They hate Spike. Thus, there are flaws in the movie. Plus, the central figure of the movie, Malcolm X still to this day, doesn't sit well with a lot of folks.

<--- we've got bush!

  

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bignick
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49. "take it up with the people that have a problem with it."
In response to Reply # 34


  

          

>Those who had a problem with the movie have a problem with
>Spike. They hate Spike. Thus, there are flaws in the movie.

that's just not true. i know people who are big fans of Spike that just don't care that much for X.

  

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jambone
Member since Aug 08th 2005
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51. "I don't have a problem with it. I know its a good movie. But because..."
In response to Reply # 49


  

          

>>Those who had a problem with the movie have a problem with
>>Spike. They hate Spike. Thus, there are flaws in the movie.
>
>that's just not true. i know people who are big fans of Spike
>that just don't care that much for X.

"Spike" directed it, it is always nitpicked. You cannot find fault with this movie. Its too good. Its a masterpiece.

<--- we've got bush!

  

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bignick
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56. "i love the movie, but this..."
In response to Reply # 51


  

          


>You cannot find
>fault with this movie. Its too good. Its a masterpiece.

is just silly.

  

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DrNO
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35. "gross simplification"
In response to Reply # 32


  

          

the fact that the early years feel like a cartoon. Also, the original script was written by James Baldwin and Spike basically threw away everything nuanced about it that gave Malcolm real humanity. Baldwin's estate had his name removed from the films credits.

"The necessity of creating a pious "official" (i.e., middle-class) portrait squeezes out too many aspects of Malcolm's varied experience and mercurial intelligence; even at 199 minutes, this often feels like a skim job. But if you're too lazy to read the book, you probably should see this." - Jonathan Rosenbaum.

_
http://youtube.com/watch?v=4TztqYaemt0
http://preptimeposse.blogspot.com/

  

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Mr Mech
Member since Jul 02nd 2002
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Mon May-07-07 02:56 PM

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94. "I didn't know Baldwin had anything to do with the film..."
In response to Reply # 35
Mon May-07-07 02:57 PM by Mr Mech

          

Is there a script around?

Mech

  

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DunDaDa
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39. "I remember critics"
In response to Reply # 32


  

          

complaining about the ending sequence...the "I am Malcolm X" part....but like it was said before, the sharpest criticisms pointed toward Spike himself, not necessarily the film

----------------------------------------------------------------
respect the gift.

  

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Mr Mech
Member since Jul 02nd 2002
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95. "Most critics believe the everything about the film is the director's res..."
In response to Reply # 39


          

So there is no way to judge them separately.

Mech

  

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mc_delta_t
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Mon Jun-05-06 11:13 PM

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41. "well, some of the factual errors are glaring"
In response to Reply # 32


  

          

and the ending with the kids kills it for me, that shoulda been an extra

but I think it's definitely a solid movie despite it's flaws, and it kind of........endearing I guess, because of it's flaws

  

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CaptainRook
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Tue Jun-06-06 10:36 AM

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43. "My main problem with the flick is"
In response to Reply # 32


  

          

that he chose to leave out some very, very critical elements that point to the source of the most likely true source of Malcolm's murder and Malcolm's importance (to us) and the threat and danger that he represented to the imperialist powers in the world.

Malcolm was nearly poisoned to death while he was in Egypt and he was also denied entry into the French Embassy. Needless to say, these incidents were not the works of the NOI.

Why leave those 2 facts out, but dedicate 15 - 20 minutes of film time to jitterbug dancing? Where's your focus and your priorities? Which is more important and which would give the viewer a greater understanding on the importance of MX and the impact that he truly had/was having/ and would have had on the world.

Overall, I thought the film was decent, but Spike dropped the ball at some serious intervals, and that can not be denied.

<<<<"Nothings more attractive than a heavy praying woman" © Andre 3000

  

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Nettrice
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Tue Jun-06-06 11:16 AM

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45. "RE: My main problem with the flick is"
In response to Reply # 43
Tue Jun-06-06 11:24 AM by Nettrice

  

          

>that he chose to leave out some very, very critical elements
>that point to the source of the most likely true source of
>Malcolm's murder and Malcolm's importance (to us) and the
>threat and danger that he represented to the imperialist
>powers in the world.

To Spike Lee's credit I think that he was following an existing script and esp. Haley's autobiography/story.

Also see #44.

>Malcolm was nearly poisoned to death while he was in Egypt and
>he was also denied entry into the French Embassy. Needless to
>say, these incidents were not the works of the NOI.

Somewhere above I mentioned COINTELPRO and this includes other imperialist countries.

>Why leave those 2 facts out, but dedicate 15 - 20 minutes of
>film time to jitterbug dancing?

It's Hollywood. The studio wanted to shut the production down from the very beginning.

>Where's your focus and your
>priorities? Which is more important and which would give the
>viewer a greater understanding on the importance of MX and the
>impact that he truly had/was having/ and would have had on the
>world.

IMO there's no way Lee would have been able to bring such a film to mainstream audiences. I think it fair to say that the film really only covered his early years, his transition and transformation from NOI to true Islam, and the strain he was under up until his death. I agree that Lee only danced around the edges of what Shabazz could have become but it was a strategy that got the movie made and distributed commercially.

>Overall, I thought the film was decent, but Spike dropped the
>ball at some serious intervals, and that can not be denied.

True.

BTW - I wasn't just sobbing because he was going to be killed. I was thinking about what we really lost when he was killed.

<--- Blame this lady for Nutty.

  

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CaptainRook
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Tue Jun-06-06 11:45 AM

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46. "RE: My main problem with the flick is"
In response to Reply # 45


  

          

>To Spike Lee's credit I think that he was following an
>existing script and esp. Haley's autobiography/story.
>
It was in MX's autobiography (as told to Alex Haley) that I learned about the bigger forces that were moving on Malcolm. I can't give Spike a pass for leaving this out, I'm sorry. Too many minds that are all too often influenced by movies and believe in movies and will NEVER read the book or do any independent research on their own, were/are at stake. And he didn't give the people The Truth on this one; instead he misled.



>Also see #44.
>
>>Malcolm was nearly poisoned to death while he was in Egypt
>and
>>he was also denied entry into the French Embassy. Needless
>to
>>say, these incidents were not the works of the NOI.
>
>Somewhere above I mentioned COINTELPRO and this includes other
>imperialist countries.

Yes, YOU mentioned. But Spike didn't deal with this element of MX and his assassination properly. I can't give Spike credit for what you did/mentioned.

>
>>Why leave those 2 facts out, but dedicate 15 - 20 minutes of
>>film time to jitterbug dancing?
>
>It's Hollywood. The studio wanted to shut the production down
>from the very beginning.
>
>>Where's your focus and your
>>priorities? Which is more important and which would give
>the
>>viewer a greater understanding on the importance of MX and
>the
>>impact that he truly had/was having/ and would have had on
>the
>>world.
>
>IMO there's no way Lee would have been able to bring such a
>film to mainstream audiences.

Why not? Oliver Stone was able to do some serious, real, and truthful finger pointing in his film on JFK?

I think it fair to say that the
>film really only covered his early years, his transition and
>transformation from NOI to true Islam, and the strain he was
>under up until his death. I agree that Lee only danced around
>the edges of what Shabazz could have become but it was a
>strategy that got the movie made and distributed
>commercially.

For that reason, I was and still am apprehensive about this film's release. Malcolm was (and to the extent that he hasn't been completely co-opted) a revolutionary ICON to the nth degree and that is nothing to play with. He meant something to alot of people and the commericializaiton of his life and legacy through this film has taken a lot from that.


>

>BTW - I wasn't just sobbing because he was going to be killed.
> I was thinking about what we really lost when he was killed.

True enough, the film was good for generating emotions.

<<<<"Nothings more attractive than a heavy praying woman" © Andre 3000

  

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Nettrice
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47. "RE: My main problem with the flick is"
In response to Reply # 46
Tue Jun-06-06 12:17 PM by Nettrice

  

          

>And he
>didn't give the people The Truth on this one; instead he
>misled.

No, I misled is not the word that comes to mind. Spike Lee told the story through his lens/filter. He stepped up and went against Hollywood to get the movie made. He also made an appeal to rich Black folks to make sure the film stayed in production.

I don't see Lee as a person who could have done what Oliver Stone did with JFK. Plus, there were consequences for Stone after JFK came out. The film generated intense controversy when it was released with many critics accusing Stone of making up alot of facts. It cast doubt in the public eye for JFK...and his more recent films.

>Yes, YOU mentioned. But Spike didn't deal with this element
>of MX and his assassination properly. I can't give Spike
>credit for what you did/mentioned.

Understood.

>For that reason, I was and still am apprehensive about this
>film's release. Malcolm was (and to the extent that he hasn't
>been completely co-opted) a revolutionary ICON to the nth
>degree and that is nothing to play with. He meant something
>to alot of people and the commericializaiton of his life and
>legacy through this film has taken a lot from that.

The same can be said for Che Guevara. I have my fingers crossed for Guerrilla with Benicio Del Toro but I also have my doubts.

<--- Blame this lady for Nutty.

  

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CaptainRook
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Tue Jun-06-06 12:29 PM

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48. "RE: My main problem with the flick is"
In response to Reply # 47


  

          

>>And he
>>didn't give the people The Truth on this one; instead he
>>misled.
>
>No, I misled is not the word that comes to mind. Spike Lee
>told the story through his lens/filter. He stepped up and
>went against Hollywood to get the movie made. He also made an
>appeal to rich Black folks to make sure the film stayed in
>production.
>

Huh? I don't know how you misled when Spike made the movie.


>I don't see Lee as a person who could have done what Oliver
>Stone did with JFK. Plus, there were consequences for Stone
>after JFK came out.

There are always consequences for telling The Truth. Don't believe me, ask Malcolm X, ask Dr. ML King, ask Steven Biko, etc...

The film generated intense controversy
>when it was released with many critics accusing Stone of
>making up alot of facts. It cast doubt in the public eye for
>JFK...and his more recent films.

Unfortunately, that is one of the consequences to living in a society that we live in today; The Truth is often viewed as controversial and often met with great opposition. "Casting doubt" i.e., bringing one's credibility into question, is one of the main tools used by the powers that be to neutralize and/or nullify any Truth that one may be revealing that is pullin' the covers off the top of the dirty deeds that occur out of view for most of us.

>
>>Yes, YOU mentioned. But Spike didn't deal with this element
>>of MX and his assassination properly. I can't give Spike
>>credit for what you did/mentioned.
>
>Understood.
>
>>For that reason, I was and still am apprehensive about this
>>film's release. Malcolm was (and to the extent that he
>hasn't
>>been completely co-opted) a revolutionary ICON to the nth
>>degree and that is nothing to play with. He meant something
>>to alot of people and the commericializaiton of his life and
>>legacy through this film has taken a lot from that.
>
>The same can be said for Che Guevara. I have my fingers
>crossed for Guerrilla with Benicio Del Toro but I also have my
>doubts.

Then you see my point.

<<<<"Nothings more attractive than a heavy praying woman" © Andre 3000

  

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Nettrice
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Tue Jun-06-06 01:46 PM

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50. "RE: My main problem with the flick is"
In response to Reply # 48


  

          

>Huh? I don't know how you misled when Spike made the movie.

My point was that I don't think it was Lee's intention to mislead people. He's an "artist" and produced art/his interpretation.

>There are always consequences for telling The Truth. Don't
>believe me, ask Malcolm X, ask Dr. ML King, ask Steven Biko,
>etc...

Oh, I know this already.

>>The same can be said for Che Guevara. I have my fingers
>>crossed for Guerrilla with Benicio Del Toro but I also have
>my
>>doubts.
>
>Then you see my point.

Sure.

<--- Blame this lady for Nutty.

  

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jambone
Member since Aug 08th 2005
24803 posts
Tue Jun-06-06 02:59 PM

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52. "Wait a minute..."
In response to Reply # 50


  

          

>>Huh? I don't know how you misled when Spike made the
>movie.
>
>My point was that I don't think it was Lee's intention to
>mislead people. He's an "artist" and produced art/his
>interpretation.
>

Where did he mislead the people? Its a 3 hour movie. Malcolm X lived several lifetimes in 39 1/2 years. There were always going to be things missing that aren't in the movie. I don't understand that criticism.

This is a great movie to capture Malcolm and his life. Its not going to cover every minute detail. It encourages you to seek more about Malcolm and learn more about him.

Spike can't win with the critics. Thats what makes Malcolm X the movie even more special. It can't be denied because its so good. Sure, the critics will find flaws and nitpick. But deep in their hearts they know its a masterpiece. And they can't stand it. lol


<--- we've got bush!

  

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CaptainRook
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4936 posts
Tue Jun-06-06 03:22 PM

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53. "RE: Wait a minute..."
In response to Reply # 52


  

          

>>>Huh? I don't know how you misled when Spike made the
>>movie.
>>
>>My point was that I don't think it was Lee's intention to
>>mislead people. He's an "artist" and produced art/his
>>interpretation.
>>
>
>Where did he mislead the people?

The misleading part is where he casually and not so subtley (sp?) allowed the finger to pointed at other Black ppl as being responsible for the murder of MX. This contributes more to the old divide and conquer tactic.

Its a 3 hour movie. Malcolm X
>lived several lifetimes in 39 1/2 years. There were always
>going to be things missing that aren't in the movie. I don't
>understand that criticism.

Agreed. And he could've cut down on some of the non-sense jitterbug time at the beginning and inserted a strong implication (at the very least) that imperialist interests were threatened by MX and his vision and ultimate goal and that US Intelligence along with other like agencies in other nations were making serious moves to eliminate him.

Instead, Spike leaves the viewer with the impression of this being just simply another case of Black on Black violence. And MX's murder was much bigger than that.


>
>This is a great movie to capture Malcolm and his life. Its not
>going to cover every minute detail. It encourages you to seek
>more about Malcolm and learn more about him.
>
No doubt. But unfortunately, for the masses, more indepth research is not going to occur. So this movie, for all it's worth, is going to be their education on and impression of MX. This is the sad reality.


>Spike can't win with the critics.

When you take on a project like this that involves an ICONIC figure like MX, you'd better expect some criticism. I mean, it comes with the territory.


Thats what makes Malcolm X
>the movie even more special. It can't be denied because its so
>good. Sure, the critics will find flaws and nitpick. But deep
>in their hearts they know its a masterpiece. And they can't
>stand it. lol
>
It was a good piece of entertainment that was BASED ON the life and times and death of Malcolm X. No more, no less.

>
>

<<<<"Nothings more attractive than a heavy praying woman" © Andre 3000

  

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jambone
Member since Aug 08th 2005
24803 posts
Tue Jun-06-06 03:50 PM

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54. "Ahaaah!"
In response to Reply # 53
Tue Jun-06-06 03:54 PM by jambone

  

          

>>>>Huh? I don't know how you misled when Spike made the
>>>movie.
>>>
>>>My point was that I don't think it was Lee's intention to
>>>mislead people. He's an "artist" and produced art/his
>>>interpretation.
>>>
>>
>>Where did he mislead the people?
>
>The misleading part is where he casually and not so subtley
>(sp?) allowed the finger to pointed at other Black ppl as
>being responsible for the murder of MX. This contributes more
>to the old divide and conquer tactic.
>

No it doesn't it all. You are fishing. Did you notice the people following him when he travelled overseas in the movie? Or were they just two arbitrary white guys sent by NOI? Come on. Or how about the phone tapping of his phones by these 2 white guys in the movie? Or the part where Malcolm says "its more than just the Nation...".

Divide and conquer? Did the Nation *not* want Malcolm dead? Answer that question? Did Elijah Muhammad junior *no* say he want to cut out Malcolm's toungue and send it to his father? Was the FBI, NYPD, CIA involved? Yes. John Ali was an informant. But they exploited an already existing relationship in which the Nation wanted Malcolm dead. They made attempts on his life and firebombed his house all over nothing but jealousy. Who contributed more to the old divide and conquer, brother? The "gubment" or blacks themeselves. That is what Spike was getting at. Its why he chose to leave that quote of Malcolm in the movie of "n*ggas ruined it". Were there outside forces? Yes. But the heart of the problem existed within the Nation. Not outside of it. THAT is what Spike chose to focus on. The crux of the matter.


>Its a 3 hour movie. Malcolm X
>>lived several lifetimes in 39 1/2 years. There were always
>>going to be things missing that aren't in the movie. I don't
>>understand that criticism.
>
>Agreed. And he could've cut down on some of the non-sense
>jitterbug time at the beginning and inserted a strong
>implication (at the very least) that imperialist interests
>were threatened by MX and his vision and ultimate goal and
>that US Intelligence along with other like agencies in other
>nations were making serious moves to eliminate him.
>

Right, and if he did that, critics would say why did he just cover the latter part of his life? Why did he just cover that aspect? Warner Brothers didn't even want him to give a 3 hr limit? Come on now, you are fishing for straws.

>Instead, Spike leaves the viewer with the impression of this
>being just simply another case of Black on Black violence.
>And MX's murder was much bigger than that.
>


Yes it was. But it doesn't ingnore the fact that his own brothers wanted him canceled for no reason but their own jealousy of his power.

>
>>
>>This is a great movie to capture Malcolm and his life. Its
>not
>>going to cover every minute detail. It encourages you to
>seek
>>more about Malcolm and learn more about him.
>>
>No doubt. But unfortunately, for the masses, more indepth
>research is not going to occur. So this movie, for all it's
>worth, is going to be their education on and impression of MX.
> This is the sad reality.
>

Is that Spike's fault or the masses?

>
>>Spike can't win with the critics.
>
>When you take on a project like this that involves an ICONIC
>figure like MX, you'd better expect some criticism. I mean,
>it comes with the territory.
>

Really? No matter how great that movie is? I see. lol

>
>Thats what makes Malcolm X
>>the movie even more special. It can't be denied because its
>so
>>good. Sure, the critics will find flaws and nitpick. But
>deep
>>in their hearts they know its a masterpiece. And they can't
>>stand it. lol
>>
>It was a good piece of entertainment that was BASED ON the
>life and times and death of Malcolm X. No more, no less.
>

When did Spike or the marketing department say otherwise. It says right on the DVD package as such.

>>
>>
>

<--- we've got bush!

  

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Nettrice
Charter member
61747 posts
Tue Jun-06-06 04:58 PM

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57. "Good response"
In response to Reply # 54


  

          

>No it doesn't it all. You are fishing. Did you notice the
>people following him when he travelled overseas in the movie?
>Or were they just two arbitrary white guys sent by NOI? Come
>on. Or how about the phone tapping of his phones by these 2
>white guys in the movie? Or the part where Malcolm says "its
>more than just the Nation...".

I was just about to mention this. ^

>But the heart of the problem existed within the
>Nation. Not outside of it. THAT is what Spike chose to focus
>on. The crux of the matter.

Sadly, I believe this. It makes me angry.

<--- Blame this lady for Nutty.

  

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CaptainRook
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4936 posts
Wed Jun-07-06 12:48 AM

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58. "Here we go..."
In response to Reply # 54


  

          

>
>No it doesn't it all. You are fishing. Did you notice the
>people following him when he travelled overseas in the movie?
>Or were they just two arbitrary white guys sent by NOI? Come
>on. Or how about the phone tapping of his phones by these 2
>white guys in the movie? Or the part where Malcolm says "its
>more than just the Nation...".
>
Yes, I noticed those guys following MX and who can forget the agents listening in to MX speak to his wife and comment that he's a saint compared to King.

So what????? Indicating that the CIA may've been following Malcolm and showing that the FBI was listening to his phone conversations does not reveal the extent to which U.S. Intelligence agencies were involved in Malcolm's murder. It doesn't even come close to disclosing their involvement. It just makes them look like some nosey motherfuckers, akin to Mrs. Cravitts on Bewitched, instead low-down, deceitful murdering sons-of-bitches. Anyone who walks away with the former view of the CIA and FBI in Malcolm's death as opposed to the latter view is a problem to me. But if you have no problem with it, that's on you.


>Divide and conquer? Did the Nation *not* want Malcolm dead?
>Answer that question? Did Elijah Muhammad junior *no* say he
>want to cut out Malcolm's toungue and send it to his father?
>Was the FBI, NYPD, CIA involved? Yes. John Ali was an
>informant. But they exploited an already existing relationship
>in which the Nation wanted Malcolm dead.

I can't speak to individuals, but I know that the official word from Elijah Muhammad was to leave Malcolm alone. It is well known that the organization had more than its fair share of zealots who were unhappy with Malcolm, viewed him as a traitor, and thought that he should be dealt with, but that doesn't speak to the head of the organization, because the official word was to leave him alone.


They made attempts on
>his life and firebombed his house all over nothing but
>jealousy.

Who are you saying bombed his house? The NOI? How do you know this? If you know for certain who bombed his house, I'd like for you to go one better for me and Inbox me the next big pay Lotto numbers.


Who contributed more to the old divide and conquer,
>brother? The "gubment" or blacks themeselves. That is what
>Spike was getting at. Its why he chose to leave that quote of
>Malcolm in the movie of "n*ggas ruined it". Were there outside
>forces? Yes. But the heart of the problem existed within the
>Nation. Not outside of it. THAT is what Spike chose to focus
>on. The crux of the matter.

We are a flawed people with many, many problems and anytime we attempt to get together on anything, there is a destructive mechanism that tends to take place (some identify it as the "Willie Lynch chip") that blocks us from gelling completely and often things turn out to be a total mess. I don't deny that we, as a people, have problems; but I also realize that this is not something that is inherent in us. It is the result of centuries of outside forces conditioning us and influencing us. I acknowledge that.

At the same time, I can not turn a blind eye and ignore when we have been deliberately and blatantly been fucked with. Malcolm's murder was the result one of these instances of us being deliberately and blatantly being fucked with by outsiders who obviously did not and do not have our best interest at heart.


>
>
>>Its a 3 hour movie. Malcolm X
>>>lived several lifetimes in 39 1/2 years. There were always
>>>going to be things missing that aren't in the movie. I
>don't
>>>understand that criticism.
>>
>>Agreed. And he could've cut down on some of the non-sense
>>jitterbug time at the beginning and inserted a strong
>>implication (at the very least) that imperialist interests
>>were threatened by MX and his vision and ultimate goal and
>>that US Intelligence along with other like agencies in other
>>nations were making serious moves to eliminate him.
>>
>
>Right, and if he did that, critics would say why did he just
>cover the latter part of his life? Why did he just cover that
>aspect? Warner Brothers didn't even want him to give a 3 hr
>limit? Come on now, you are fishing for straws.
>
First of all dude, I don't fish. If you enjoyed the movie for it's entertainment value, that's fine, but don't try to make it seem like this was all that great of an adaptation of MX's life, because IMO, it wasn't. No doubt, Malcolm's life was complex and there was a lot that can still be told no matter what all is included, but to focus and shucking and jiving and partying and bullshitting as much as he chose to was ridiculous and disappointing.


>>Instead, Spike leaves the viewer with the impression of this
>>being just simply another case of Black on Black violence.
>>And MX's murder was much bigger than that.
>>
>
>
>Yes it was. But it doesn't ingnore the fact that his own
>brothers wanted him canceled for no reason but their own
>jealousy of his power.
>

Some may've wanted him dead, I'll give you that; but that doesn't mean that they killed him. What makes you think that the hostility towards Malcolm was purely jealousy and envy as if there were no other issues involved? You've been watching this comfounded movie too much.

>>
>>>
>>>This is a great movie to capture Malcolm and his life. Its
>>not
>>>going to cover every minute detail. It encourages you to
>>seek
>>>more about Malcolm and learn more about him.
>>>
>>No doubt. But unfortunately, for the masses, more indepth
>>research is not going to occur. So this movie, for all it's
>>worth, is going to be their education on and impression of
>MX.
>> This is the sad reality.
>>
>
>Is that Spike's fault or the masses?

The intellectual laziness of the masses is not Spikes fault and I never claimed that it was. I feel that if Spike is going to make a movie on a man like Malcolm, who means so many things to so many people, he should be responsible and represent Malcolm's image properly and intelligently, because for many, if they don't get that at this movie, they're not gonna get it at all, ever.

>
>>
>>>Spike can't win with the critics.
>>
>>When you take on a project like this that involves an ICONIC
>>figure like MX, you'd better expect some criticism. I mean,
>>it comes with the territory.
>>
>
>Really? No matter how great that movie is? I see. lol
>

Yes, criticism comes with the territory, especially when you do a theatrical reflection of Malcolm, so expect it. Honestly, it's one of those things where you just can't please everybody. And "great" is relative and completely subjective. And even if a movie is considered "great" as a general concensus, that doesn't keep it from being a thing that can be critiqued and criticized.




>>
>>Thats what makes Malcolm X
>>>the movie even more special. It can't be denied because its
>>so
>>>good. Sure, the critics will find flaws and nitpick. But
>>deep
>>>in their hearts they know its a masterpiece. And they can't
>>>stand it. lol
>>>
>>It was a good piece of entertainment that was BASED ON the
>>life and times and death of Malcolm X. No more, no less.
>>
>
>When did Spike or the marketing department say otherwise. It
>says right on the DVD package as such.

Agreed. Good entertainment is all the movie really was when it comes down to it. And I guess that's where I differ with you and most: If given a choice between watching this movie or watching a documentary on Malcom, I will ALWAYS select the documentary.

>
>>>
>>>
>>
>

<<<<"Nothings more attractive than a heavy praying woman" © Andre 3000

  

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Nettrice
Charter member
61747 posts
Wed Jun-07-06 08:48 AM

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59. "RE: Here we go..."
In response to Reply # 58
Wed Jun-07-06 08:49 AM by Nettrice

  

          

>I can't speak to individuals, but I know that the official
>word from Elijah Muhammad was to leave Malcolm alone. It is
>well known that the organization had more than its fair share
>of zealots who were unhappy with Malcolm, viewed him as a
>traitor, and thought that he should be dealt with, but that
>doesn't speak to the head of the organization, because the
>official word was to leave him alone.

I'll jump in and say that another thing about the NOI at that time was that Elijah Muhammad's health was failing. He was no longer able to speak for the organization and keep an eye on activities within the Nation. This was also shown in the film.

My colleagues grandfather was in the Audobon ballroom at the time of Shabazz' death and she told me that everyone there saw who killed him. COINTELPRO may have been behind the murder but the people with the guns were Black...from No. 25 in Newark.

>Who are you saying bombed his house? The NOI? How do you
>know this?

I tend to go with what Malcolm X said publicly about it.

>We are a flawed people with many, many problems and anytime we
>attempt to get together on anything, there is a destructive
>mechanism that tends to take place (some identify it as the
>"Willie Lynch chip") that blocks us from gelling completely
>and often things turn out to be a total mess.

Who isn't flawed? I also don't believe that there is a chip that makes us unable to make progress. I do believe that there is conditioning and that is something that can be dealt with.

>I don't deny
>that we, as a people, have problems; but I also realize that
>this is not something that is inherent in us. It is the
>result of centuries of outside forces conditioning us and
>influencing us. I acknowledge that.

However, I believe that at the time of Shabazz' death the NOI was co-opted and corrupt...from the top down. This has nothing to do with Black people.

>At the same time, I can not turn a blind eye and ignore when
>we have been deliberately and blatantly been fucked with.
>Malcolm's murder was the result one of these instances of us
>being deliberately and blatantly being fucked with by
>outsiders who obviously did not and do not have our best
>interest at heart.

Yes but some Black folks chose to go along. It was a choice just as Malcolm X chose to leave the NOI and become a true Muslim.

<--- Blame this lady for Nutty.

  

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CaptainRook
Charter member
4936 posts
Wed Jun-07-06 09:00 PM

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61. "RE: Here we go..."
In response to Reply # 59


  

          

>>I can't speak to individuals, but I know that the official
>>word from Elijah Muhammad was to leave Malcolm alone. It is
>>well known that the organization had more than its fair
>share
>>of zealots who were unhappy with Malcolm, viewed him as a
>>traitor, and thought that he should be dealt with, but that
>>doesn't speak to the head of the organization, because the
>>official word was to leave him alone.
>
>I'll jump in and say that another thing about the NOI at that
>time was that Elijah Muhammad's health was failing. He was no
>longer able to speak for the organization and keep an eye on
>activities within the Nation. This was also shown in the
>film.
>

E.M.'s health had been an issue for a long time but it didn't stop him from commanding his position as leader of the N.O.I. As a matter of fact, he was around for 10 years after Malcolm was assassinated. Does that sound like a man who had wittled away to nothing? I know, I know..."but the movie showed Elijah Muhammad coughing and looking real bad so I assumed..." I understand.


>My colleagues grandfather was in the Audobon ballroom at the
>time of Shabazz' death and she told me that everyone there saw
>who killed him. COINTELPRO may have been behind the murder
>but the people with the guns were Black...from No. 25 in
>Newark.
>

The people who pulled the trigger WERE Black and I never said that they were not. But I'ma let you in on a secret sis. *leans closer* You listening? *whisper begins* The FBI recruits and hires Black people to obtain information from Black people and to disrupt positive, progressive activities of Black organizations. *whisper ends*

So yes, Black people were the puppets that were seen pulling the trigger, but who was the puppeteer?

Did you know that out of the 5 guys who were seen conducting the assassination of Malcolm X, only one guy actually stood trial for Malcolm's murder. Actually, 3 stood trial, but only one (i.e., Talmadge Hayer) was actually an assassin. The other 2 who were standing trial, as Hayer testified, were not even at the Audobon the day Malcolm was killed. But they were standing trial for Malcolm's death. What happened to the other 4 men? Note: initially, it was reported that 5 men were involved in Malcolm's assassination, but only 3 stood trial and out of thos 3, only one had anything to do with the assassination. What do you think of that?

If you don't believe me? Well check the book, "The Assassination of Malcolm X", by George Breitman and "Conspiracy: Unraveling the Assasination of Malcolm X" by Baba Zak Kondo.

In the mean time, you can chew on the links below to tide you over until you get a hold of the above referenced literature:

http://www.leftgatekeepers.com/articles/WhoEliminatedMalcolmXByBobFeldman.htm

http://partners.nytimes.com/library/film/022193lee-malcolm-book.html

Maybe they will provide some insight into what I've been talking about.

Sis. please note that I am courteous and thoughtful enough to provide references for my position, unlike SOME posters who just say, "Do the research", but don't provide any references at all. (Honestly, that makes me wonder if they know what the hell they are talking about).

>>Who are you saying bombed his house? The NOI? How do you
>>know this?
>
>I tend to go with what Malcolm X said publicly about it.

Well, that's fine; but honestly Malcolm didn't fully know at the time how heavy he was being watched nor did he understand the extent to which the imperialist forces were making moves on him. It may've seemed most apparent that it was the N.O.I. because they had the public beef, but Malcolm really didn't know how badly the US and the (former) colonial powers wanted him eliminated.

It may've been some members of the Nation, it may not have been. Who knows? I know that I don't; I'm sure that Malcolm didn't really know; he just suspected.



>
>>We are a flawed people with many, many problems and anytime
>we
>>attempt to get together on anything, there is a destructive
>>mechanism that tends to take place (some identify it as the
>>"Willie Lynch chip") that blocks us from gelling completely
>>and often things turn out to be a total mess.
>
>Who isn't flawed? I also don't believe that there is a chip
>that makes us unable to make progress. I do believe that
>there is conditioning and that is something that can be dealt
>with.

Sis. that conditioning that you're speaking of is what some refer to as "the Willie Lynch chip". I personally don't believe in the story of Willie Lynch giving a speech to slave masters some 300 years ago that gave them all the secrets to keeping negroes down. But that conditioning you speak of is the same as "the chip" to which I was referring.


>
>>I don't deny
>>that we, as a people, have problems; but I also realize that
>>this is not something that is inherent in us. It is the
>>result of centuries of outside forces conditioning us and
>>influencing us. I acknowledge that.
>
>However, I believe that at the time of Shabazz' death the NOI
>was co-opted and corrupt...from the top down. This has
>nothing to do with Black people.
>

Maybe so; hell, probably so. But to what extent this courruption was prevealent and manifesting itself is the question.


>>At the same time, I can not turn a blind eye and ignore when
>>we have been deliberately and blatantly been fucked with.
>>Malcolm's murder was the result one of these instances of us
>>being deliberately and blatantly being fucked with by
>>outsiders who obviously did not and do not have our best
>>interest at heart.
>
>Yes but some Black folks chose to go along. It was a choice
>just as Malcolm X chose to leave the NOI and become a true
>Muslim.

Honestly, Malcolm didn't "chose to leave the NOI", he was put out or should I say constructively removed from the orgainzation. I don't like that he was put out, but that's how it went down (I know, I know, I know...the movie didn't present it like that, right? But that was actually the case.

I don't know what this "true Muslim" talk is about. What makes what some damn Arabs have more valid than the means of religious expression that Black people have?

<<<<"Nothings more attractive than a heavy praying woman" © Andre 3000

  

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Nettrice
Charter member
61747 posts
Wed Jun-07-06 11:58 PM

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65. "RE: Here we go..."
In response to Reply # 61
Thu Jun-08-06 12:00 AM by Nettrice

  

          

>E.M.'s health had been an issue for a long time but it didn't
>stop him from commanding his position as leader of the N.O.I.

I mentioned above that one of my mentors was in the NOI and left when Shabazz was murdered. By that time Muhammad was a figurehead and, yes, you can whittle to nothing in 10 years or more. I've seen that firsthand.

>The people who pulled the trigger WERE Black and I never said
>that they were not. But I'ma let you in on a secret sis.
>*leans closer* You listening? *whisper begins* The FBI
>recruits and hires Black people to obtain information from
>Black people and to disrupt positive, progressive activities
>of Black organizations. *whisper ends*

No need to whisper. I already mentioned COINTELPRO.

>So yes, Black people were the puppets that were seen pulling
>the trigger, but who was the puppeteer?

So are you denying that some of the assassins were not from No. 25?

>Note: initially, it was reported that 5 men were
>involved in Malcolm's assassination, but only 3 stood trial
>and out of thos 3, only one had anything to do with the
>assassination. What do you think of that?

Like a witness protection program it was part of the deal.

>In the mean time, you can chew on the links below to tide you
>over until you get a hold of the above referenced literature:
>
>http://www.leftgatekeepers.com/articles/WhoEliminatedMalcolmXByBobFeldman.htm
>
>http://partners.nytimes.com/library/film/022193lee-malcolm-book.html

Well, here's a couple for you:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/71838.stm

http://www.villagevoice.com/news/9929,noel,7168,5.html

Very fishy.

>Well, that's fine; but honestly Malcolm didn't fully know at
>the time how heavy he was being watched nor did he understand
>the extent to which the imperialist forces were making moves
>on him.

I disagree. He KNEW. Even Betty Shabazz knew.

>Maybe so; hell, probably so. But to what extent this
>courruption was prevealent and manifesting itself is the
>question.

My mentor was a teenager in the NOI at the time of Shabazz' death. He claims even he knew what was up and that was why he left. He showed me documents to prove his case, too.

>Honestly, Malcolm didn't "chose to leave the NOI", he was put
>out or should I say constructively removed from the
>orgainzation.

Shabazz was silenced for a time but not put out. He left because I do believe he knew he was destined to take the cause to the global stage...and he became aware of corruption within the NOI.

>I don't know what this "true Muslim" talk is about. What
>makes what some damn Arabs have more valid than the means of
>religious expression that Black people have?

From http://www.colostate.edu/Orgs/MSA/find_more/m_x.html:

"On March 12, 1964, impelled by internal jealousy within the Nation of Islam and revelations of Elijah Muhammad's sexual immorality, Malcolm left the Nation of Islam with the intention of starting his own organization:

I feel like a man who has been asleep somewhat and under someone else's control. I feel what I'm thinking and saying now is for myself. Before, it was for and by guidance of another, now I think with my own mind.

Malcolm was thirty-eight years old when he left Elijah Muhammad's Nation of Islam. Reflecting on reflects that occurred prior to leaving, he said:

At one or another college or university, usually in the informal gatherings after I had spoken, perhaps a dozen generally white-complexioned people would come up to me, identifying themselves as Arabian, Middle Eastern or North African Muslims who happened to be visiting, studying, or living in the United States. They had said to me that, my white-indicting statements notwithstanding, they felt I was sincere in considering myself a Muslim -- and they felt if I was exposed to what they always called "true Islam," I would "understand it, and embrace it." Automatically, as a follower of Elijah, I had bridled whenever this was said. But in the privacy of my own thoughts after several of these experiences, I did question myself: if one was sincere in professing a religion, why should he balk at broadening his knowledge of that religion?

Those orthodox Muslims whom I had met, one after another, had urged me to meet and talk with a Dr. Mahmoud Youssef Shawarbi. . . . Then one day Dr. Shawarbi and I were introduced by a newspaperman. He was cordial. He said he had followed me in the press; I said I had been told of him, and we talked for fifteen or twenty minutes. We both had to leave to make appointments we had, when he dropped on me something whose logic never would get out of my head. He said, "No man has believed perfectly until he wishes for his brother what he wishes for himself."

...

"The pilgrimage to Mecca, known as the Hajj, is a religious obligation that every orthodox Muslim fulfills, if able, at least once in his or her lifetime.

The Holy Quran says it, "Pilgrimage to the House is a duty men owe to God; those who are able, make the journey." (3: 97)

Allah said: "And proclaim the pilgrimage among men; they will come to you on foot and upon each lean camel, they will come from every deep ravine" (22:27).

Every one of the thousands at the airport, about to leave for Jeddah, was dressed this way. You could be a king or a peasant and no on e would know. Some powerful personages, who were discreetly pointed out to me, had on the same thing I had on. Once thus dressed, we all had begun intermittently calling out "Labbayka! (Allahumma) Labbayka!" (Here I come, O Lord!) Packed in the plane were white, black, brown, red, and yellow people, blue eyes and blond hair, and my kinky red hair -- all together, brothers! All honoring the same God, all in turn giving equal honor to each other. . . ."

Thus true Muslims take the pilgrimage to Mecca, according to the Quran and meet in fellowship with other Musilms there to practice the rituals detailed in the Holy Book.

<--- Blame this lady for Nutty.

  

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CaptainRook
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4936 posts
Fri Jun-09-06 10:02 AM

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76. "RE: Here we go..."
In response to Reply # 65


  

          

>
>I mentioned above that one of my mentors was in the NOI and
>left when Shabazz was murdered. By that time Muhammad was a
>figurehead and, yes, you can whittle to nothing in 10 years or
>more. I've seen that firsthand.
>

Your response here is kinda misleading because in the previous post you declared "at that time" (I'm assuming that you meant the time that Malcolm was assassinated) "Elijah Muhammad's health was failing" and of course you mentioned that the movie showed this. To which I responded that his health was not that big of an issue that you were making it out to be because he commanded the NOI as its leader for 10 years after MX's assassination, and not that he had whittled away to nothing in 10 years; that's not what I was saying at all. I was saying that he had not whittled away to nothing at the time of MX's assassination.

Also, if E.M. was a figurehead, who was the actual leader during this time?


>>The people who pulled the trigger WERE Black and I never
>said
>>that they were not. But I'ma let you in on a secret sis.
>>*leans closer* You listening? *whisper begins* The FBI
>>recruits and hires Black people to obtain information from
>>Black people and to disrupt positive, progressive activities
>>of Black organizations. *whisper ends*
>
>No need to whisper. I already mentioned COINTELPRO.
>

Mentioning an organization and telling on them is 2 different things.


>>So yes, Black people were the puppets that were seen pulling
>>the trigger, but who was the puppeteer?
>
>So are you denying that some of the assassins were not from
>No. 25?

This is also misleading because you typed the question in the form of a double negative. So I will re-type the question the way that I think you meant to ask it, and you can let me know whether my re-phrasing is accurate or inaccurate.

"So are you denying that some of the assassins were from
No. 25?"

Ok. Pay attention real closely, because I thought that I was making this clear before but apparently not. Some of the assassins may've been from Mosque # 25, some of them may not have been. Talmadge Hayer I believe was from mosque # 25, so at least he was one that I would have to say yes to. But no one knows where the other assassins were from because they never stood trial and were never brougt to justice. They supposedly "just disappered", I guess. No one at the Audobon that day ever knowingly saw these guys again. The other 2 men that stood trial with Talmadge Hayer did not particpate in MX's at assassination and were not even at the Audobon that day that MX was assassinated.

The unknown/unfound assassins may've been from Mosque # 25 but they were not of Mosque # 25; they were of the FBI. The FBI would send FBI agents (in this case, Black agents) to infiltrate organizations that they considered a "threat to National security". By joining these organizations, the FBI was able to keep a close eye on the activities of these organizations and disrupt things (if it was thought to be necessary) and cause confusion, above all else.

I believe yo' boy Jambone has acknowledged that one of E.M.'s top aids, John Ali, served as the NOI's secretary, all the while he was on the FBI's payroll. This was done to the NOI, the Black Panthers, the US organization, Garvey's UNIA movement, you name the organization, if they were looking to make some serious moves on the behalf of Black people, they were infiltrated.


>
>>Note: initially, it was reported that 5 men were
>>involved in Malcolm's assassination, but only 3 stood trial
>>and out of thos 3, only one had anything to do with the
>>assassination. What do you think of that?
>
>Like a witness protection program it was part of the deal.
>

No, it wasn't part of the deal; IT WAS PART OF THE JOB. No need for them to hang around there anymore, their work was done (i.e., MX was dead and confusion, fingerpointing, and misblaming was abound concerning who was responsible for his death) so time to move on to the next assignment.

>
>Well, here's a couple for you:
>
>http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/71838.stm
>
>http://www.villagevoice.com/news/9929,noel,7168,5.html
>
>Very fishy.
>

Fishy, huh? What I got out of those links is that Farrakhan gave a leadership position in the NOI to a man who was wrongly convicted for the death of MX. Abdul Aziz (then Norman Butler) stood trial for the murder of MX and was convicted but he wasn't even at the Audobon that day. That day, he had gone to the hospital for a doctor's appt. for treatment for his injured leg, which was confirmed by witnesses and hospital records. But yet, he was still convicted of MX's assassination.


>>Well, that's fine; but honestly Malcolm didn't fully know at
>>the time how heavy he was being watched nor did he
>understand
>>the extent to which the imperialist forces were making moves
>>on him.
>
>I disagree. He KNEW. Even Betty Shabazz knew.
>

You can disagree all you want. Malcolm couldn't prove it; Betty couldn't prove it; and you can't prove. The only thing anyone can do is have suspicions and make accusations, but no one can prove anything so no one really knows.


>>Maybe so; hell, probably so. But to what extent this
>>courruption was prevealent and manifesting itself is the
>>question.
>
>My mentor was a teenager in the NOI at the time of Shabazz'
>death. He claims even he knew what was up and that was why he
>left. He showed me documents to prove his case, too.
>

What documents did he show you? What was the source of these documents?

>>Honestly, Malcolm didn't "chose to leave the NOI", he was
>put
>>out or should I say constructively removed from the
>>orgainzation.
>
>Shabazz was silenced for a time but not put out. He left
>because I do believe he knew he was destined to take the cause
>to the global stage...and he became aware of corruption within
>the NOI.
>

As I said, he was "constructively" put out. He wasn't told to leave, but by silencing a man like Malcolm and not allowing him to have a leadership position in the organization that he helped to grow, is just as good as putting him out, i.e., constructively put out.


>>I don't know what this "true Muslim" talk is about. What
>>makes what some damn Arabs have more valid than the means of
>>religious expression that Black people have?
>
>From http://www.colostate.edu/Orgs/MSA/find_more/m_x.html:
>
>"On March 12, 1964, impelled by internal jealousy within the
>Nation of Islam and revelations of Elijah Muhammad's sexual
>immorality, Malcolm left the Nation of Islam with the
>intention of starting his own organization:
>
> I feel like a man who has been asleep somewhat and under
>someone else's control. I feel what I'm thinking and saying
>now is for myself. Before, it was for and by guidance of
>another, now I think with my own mind.

First of all, E.M. identified these women as his wives and he took care of them and their children as such (one of these women, Tynetta Muhammad and her son, Ishmael (also, E.M.'s son), hold leadership positions in the Nation to this very day). MX knew about this so-called immorality when he was on silent probation and was trying to get back into an active position in the NOI. So for him to claim to be leaving because of some "sexual immorality" sounds suspect to me.

>
>Malcolm was thirty-eight years old when he left Elijah
>Muhammad's Nation of Islam. Reflecting on reflects that
>occurred prior to leaving, he said:
>
> At one or another college or university, usually in the
>informal gatherings after I had spoken, perhaps a dozen
>generally white-complexioned people would come up to me,
>identifying themselves as Arabian, Middle Eastern or North
>African Muslims who happened to be visiting, studying, or
>living in the United States. They had said to me that, my
>white-indicting statements notwithstanding, they felt I was
>sincere in considering myself a Muslim -- and they felt if I
>was exposed to what they always called "true Islam," I would
>"understand it, and embrace it." Automatically, as a follower
>of Elijah, I had bridled whenever this was said. But in the
>privacy of my own thoughts after several of these experiences,
>I did question myself: if one was sincere in professing a
>religion, why should he balk at broadening his knowledge of
>that religion?
>
> Those orthodox Muslims whom I had met, one after another,
>had urged me to meet and talk with a Dr. Mahmoud Youssef
>Shawarbi. . . . Then one day Dr. Shawarbi and I were
>introduced by a newspaperman. He was cordial. He said he had
>followed me in the press; I said I had been told of him, and
>we talked for fifteen or twenty minutes. We both had to leave
>to make appointments we had, when he dropped on me something
>whose logic never would get out of my head. He said, "No man
>has believed perfectly until he wishes for his brother what he
>wishes for himself."
>
>Thus true Muslims take the pilgrimage to Mecca, according to
>the Quran and meet in fellowship with other Musilms there to
>practice the rituals detailed in the Holy Book.

Okay, I know the pilgrimage to Mecca is a requirement of Muslims in the NOI if it is within their means.

Secondly, this wasn't Malcolm's first time seeing white Muslims. He made a trip to the so-called Middle East years before the 1964 trip and unless all the white Muslims had left town that day, it is likely he saw white Muslims and knew that there white Muslims existed.

Thirdly, I refuse to believe that MX was naive enough to believe in this ritual meaning much of anything. As often as he spoke of the hypocrisy of white Christians(preaching brotherhood on Sunday, but never really putting it into any real practice), I'm sure he was insightful enough to not be fooled by a ritual (i.e., Hajj) that is based in peace and brotherhood.

And lastly, I assume that you believe the NOI should practice a non-race prejudiced based Islam like the Islamic Arabs enslaving and committing all kinds of abuses and atrocities against Black Afrikans in the Sudan.

<<<<"Nothings more attractive than a heavy praying woman" © Andre 3000

  

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Nettrice
Charter member
61747 posts
Fri Jun-09-06 10:46 AM

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77. "Power of nightmares"
In response to Reply # 76
Fri Jun-09-06 10:47 AM by Nettrice

  

          

>I was saying
>that he had not whittled away to nothing at the time of MX's
>assassination.

Check this out: http://www.ink19.com/issues/april2003/printReviews/evolutionOfNationOf.html

"Elijah Muhammad was only the figurehead of the Nation of Islam. His ability to shape the evolution of the Nation was quite limited, and his ideology quickly became stagnant. Thus, it is no wonder that when Malcolm X disavowed Muhammad's ideological tunnel vision, many left the Nation with him."

>Also, if E.M. was a figurehead, who was the actual leader
>during this time?

Not leader but leaders. There were plenty of spokesmen/leaders speaking on behalf of Elijah Muhammad at the time of Shabazz' death.

>Mentioning an organization and telling on them is 2 different
>things.

I provided a link...people can read.

>>>So yes, Black people were the puppets that were seen
>pulling
>>>the trigger, but who was the puppeteer?
>>
>>So are you denying that some of the assassins were not from
>>No. 25?
>
>This is also misleading because you typed the question in the
>form of a double negative. So I will re-type the question the
>way that I think you meant to ask it, and you can let me know
>whether my re-phrasing is accurate or inaccurate.

There was no need to re-type anything. You knew what I meant.

>Some of the
>assassins may've been from Mosque # 25, some of them may not
>have been. Talmadge Hayer I believe was from mosque # 25, so
>at least he was one that I would have to say yes to.

No. 25 was involved. NOI do not do anything without a directive. Even if they had been working for the FBI they could not have just acted on their own. My point is that the assassins were getting directives from the FBI and NOI. It was the same directive.

This reminds me of a time some "spies" from a local newspaper signed up for classes at a new center where I was director. The newspaper had previous published some damaging articles about the org and I told my supervisors that I thought they were plants. Sure enough the paper published another negative article but praised the new center. The plants disappeared. I learned a lot from that experience...about politics and the b.s. people will do to maintain a status quo.

>>Like a witness protection program it was part of the deal.
>>
>
>No, it wasn't part of the deal; IT WAS PART OF THE JOB. No
>need for them to hang around there anymore, their work was
>done (i.e., MX was dead and confusion, fingerpointing, and
>misblaming was abound concerning who was responsible for his
>death) so time to move on to the next assignment.

There was plenty of chaos before he died and it continued afterwards.

>Fishy, huh? What I got out of those links is that Farrakhan
>gave a leadership position in the NOI to a man who was wrongly
>convicted for the death of MX. Abdul Aziz (then Norman
>Butler) stood trial for the murder of MX and was convicted but
>he wasn't even at the Audobon that day. That day, he had gone
>to the hospital for a doctor's appt. for treatment for his
>injured leg, which was confirmed by witnesses and hospital
>records. But yet, he was still convicted of MX's
>assassination.

And that's not fishy?

>You can disagree all you want. Malcolm couldn't prove it;
>Betty couldn't prove it; and you can't prove. The only thing
>anyone can do is have suspicions and make accusations, but no
>one can prove anything so no one really knows.

After talking with my colleague whose family was at the Audobon when Shabazz was murdered it was clear that any voices that could prove anything were silenced out of fear. My "boy" jambone just posted an excellent video that just touches on that fear. You should check it out.

>What documents did he show you? What was the source of these
>documents?

Some publications within the NOI at the time and right after Shabazz' death.

>First of all, E.M. identified these women as his wives and he
>took care of them and their children as such (one of these
>women, Tynetta Muhammad and her son, Ishmael (also, E.M.'s
>son), hold leadership positions in the Nation to this very
>day). MX knew about this so-called immorality when he was on
>silent probation and was trying to get back into an active
>position in the NOI. So for him to claim to be leaving
>because of some "sexual immorality" sounds suspect to me.

Well, in this country what Muhammad did is immoral AND illegal. Ask the Mormons.

>Okay, I know the pilgrimage to Mecca is a requirement of
>Muslims in the NOI if it is within their means.

Man, it is more than just the haijj (that was an example). There are plenty of requirements for folks who truly follow Islam that is not a requirement in the NOI.

>Secondly, this wasn't Malcolm's first time seeing white
>Muslims. He made a trip to the so-called Middle East years
>before the 1964 trip and unless all the white Muslims had left
>town that day, it is likely he saw white Muslims and knew that
>there white Muslims existed.

I think what Shabazz was saying was that it all came together for him during the haijj.

>Thirdly, I refuse to believe that MX was naive enough to
>believe in this ritual meaning much of anything.

WTF??? What b.s. is this? Plenty of Muslims around the world take haijj very seriously.

>And lastly, I assume that you believe the NOI should practice
>a non-race prejudiced based Islam like the Islamic Arabs
>enslaving and committing all kinds of abuses and atrocities
>against Black Afrikans in the Sudan.

But you cannot generalize Islam or any religion. Corruption was everywhere. You should check out The Power of Nightmares:

"This film explores the origins in the 1940s and 50s of Islamic Fundamentalism in the Middle East, and Neoconservatism in America, parallels between these movements, and their effect on the world today. From the introduction to Part 1:

"Both were idealists who were born out of the failure of the liberal dream to build a better world. And both had a very similar explanation for what caused that failure. These two groups have changed the world, but not in the way that either intended. Together, they created today's nightmare vision of a secret, organized evil that threatens the world. A fantasy that politicians then found restored their power and authority in a disillusioned age. And those with the darkest fears became the most powerful. " The Power of Nightmares, Baby It's Cold Outside." - http://www.archive.org/details/ThePowerOfNightmares

BTW - I am not a Muslim, Christian, Buddhist, nor do I represent any religion or philosophy. I hate corruption and recognize that there is duality in most things. People have to make a choice.

From an excellent article about "The Power of Individual Choice". I especially liked this part:

"Individual choice is very important. There is no way one cannot choose. Each volition comes with a resulting effect. That is why it is so powerful. The world we experience is the result of what we have made collectively. Seeing this, Donna and I have begun to choose differently. We are not saying our way is "the right way" for everyone. It's only right for us, given the circumstances we find ourselves in, at this particular point in time."

<--- Blame this lady for Nutty.

  

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CaptainRook
Charter member
4936 posts
Sun Jun-11-06 09:38 PM

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83. "RE: Power of nightmares"
In response to Reply # 77


  

          

>>assassination.
>
>Check this out:
>http://www.ink19.com/issues/april2003/printReviews/evolutionOfNationOf.html
>
>"Elijah Muhammad was only the figurehead of the Nation of
>Islam. His ability to shape the evolution of the Nation was
>quite limited, and his ideology quickly became stagnant. Thus,
>it is no wonder that when Malcolm X disavowed Muhammad's
>ideological tunnel vision, many left the Nation with him."
>

Says who? Who is this guy? From what I can tell, this is only the opinion of a guy who is doing a book review.



>>Also, if E.M. was a figurehead, who was the actual leader
>>during this time?
>
>Not leader but leaders. There were plenty of
>spokesmen/leaders speaking on behalf of Elijah Muhammad at the
>time of Shabazz' death.
>

That is nothing new. The NOI has always had numerous individuals serving in varying capacities of leadership. But Elijah was one the one who issued the top level orders that superceded all others and were to be followed by all in the NOI. This was up until his time of death. These "leaders" took orders from Elijah just like everybody else in the NOI.

>>Mentioning an organization and telling on them is 2
>different
>>things.
>
>I provided a link...people can read.
>

Provided a link to what; to show what; to prove what?

>>>>So yes, Black people were the puppets that were seen
>>pulling
>>>>the trigger, but who was the puppeteer?
>>>
>>>So are you denying that some of the assassins were not from
>>>No. 25?
>>
>>This is also misleading because you typed the question in
>the
>>form of a double negative. So I will re-type the question
>the
>>way that I think you meant to ask it, and you can let me
>know
>>whether my re-phrasing is accurate or inaccurate.
>
>There was no need to re-type anything. You knew what I
>meant.
>
>>Some of the
>>assassins may've been from Mosque # 25, some of them may not
>>have been. Talmadge Hayer I believe was from mosque # 25,
>so
>>at least he was one that I would have to say yes to.
>
>No. 25 was involved. NOI do not do anything without a
>directive. Even if they had been working for the FBI they
>could not have just acted on their own. My point is that the
>assassins were getting directives from the FBI and NOI. It
>was the same directive.


This part extracted from the above makes me wonder if you're just saying some shit to be saying some shit, if you have any idea of what you are talking about or if just having fun at my expense:

"My point is that the assassins were getting directives from the FBI and NOI."

So do you believe that EM was deliberately and conscioulsly working with the FBI? Is that what are saying? If so, I guess that's cool. Everybody's gotta believe in something. Next thing I know you'll be telling me that you believe in Santa Claus, the tooth fairy, the Easter Bunny, and the Great Pumpkin.



>This reminds me of a time some "spies" from a local newspaper
>signed up for classes at a new center where I was director.
>The newspaper had previous published some damaging articles
>about the org and I told my supervisors that I thought they
>were plants. Sure enough the paper published another negative
>article but praised the new center. The plants disappeared.
>I learned a lot from that experience...about politics and the
>b.s. people will do to maintain a status quo.
>
>>>Like a witness protection program it was part of the deal.
>>>
>>
>>No, it wasn't part of the deal; IT WAS PART OF THE JOB. No
>>need for them to hang around there anymore, their work was
>>done (i.e., MX was dead and confusion, fingerpointing, and
>>misblaming was abound concerning who was responsible for his
>>death) so time to move on to the next assignment.
>
>There was plenty of chaos before he died and it continued
>afterwards.
>
>>Fishy, huh? What I got out of those links is that Farrakhan
>>gave a leadership position in the NOI to a man who was
>wrongly
>>convicted for the death of MX. Abdul Aziz (then Norman
>>Butler) stood trial for the murder of MX and was convicted
>but
>>he wasn't even at the Audobon that day. That day, he had
>gone
>>to the hospital for a doctor's appt. for treatment for his
>>injured leg, which was confirmed by witnesses and hospital
>>records. But yet, he was still convicted of MX's
>>assassination.
>
>And that's not fishy?
>

To hire someone; to give somone a job who hadn't done anything wrong, is that fishy to me??? Nahhhh. I guess you don't believe in hiring the innocent, huh?

>>You can disagree all you want. Malcolm couldn't prove it;
>>Betty couldn't prove it; and you can't prove. The only
>thing
>>anyone can do is have suspicions and make accusations, but
>no
>>one can prove anything so no one really knows.
>
>After talking with my colleague whose family was at the
>Audobon when Shabazz was murdered it was clear that any voices
>that could prove anything were silenced out of fear. My "boy"
>jambone just posted an excellent video that just touches on
>that fear. You should check it out.
>
>>What documents did he show you? What was the source of
>these
>>documents?
>
>Some publications within the NOI at the time and right after
>Shabazz' death.
>

Internallly generated document or old Muhammad Speaks newspapers? What?? What documents did he show you "to prove his case"?


>>First of all, E.M. identified these women as his wives and
>he
>>took care of them and their children as such (one of these
>>women, Tynetta Muhammad and her son, Ishmael (also, E.M.'s
>>son), hold leadership positions in the Nation to this very
>>day). MX knew about this so-called immorality when he was
>on
>>silent probation and was trying to get back into an active
>>position in the NOI. So for him to claim to be leaving
>>because of some "sexual immorality" sounds suspect to me.
>
>Well, in this country what Muhammad did is immoral AND
>illegal. Ask the Mormons.
>

Honestly, I don't have to ask the Mormons anything. Wait a minute...why would you want me to ask the Mormons? As far as I know, the Mormons practice polygamy. So they practice, in this country, the very same thing that E.M. was practicing. So what's your point in referencing the Mormons?

>>Okay, I know the pilgrimage to Mecca is a requirement of
>>Muslims in the NOI if it is within their means.
>
>Man, it is more than just the haijj (that was an example).
>There are plenty of requirements for folks who truly follow
>Islam that is not a requirement in the NOI.
>

You really don't know what the hell you're talking about, do you?

Below is an excerpt from Elijah Muhammad's publication, Message to the Blackman in America, in the chapter, "Islam for so-called Negroes (p. 82):

"...The main principles of action in Islam: keeping up prayer, spending in the cause of truth, fasting especially during the month of Ramadan, pilgrimage to Mecca..."


>>Secondly, this wasn't Malcolm's first time seeing white
>>Muslims. He made a trip to the so-called Middle East years
>>before the 1964 trip and unless all the white Muslims had
>left
>>town that day, it is likely he saw white Muslims and knew
>that
>>there white Muslims existed.
>
>I think what Shabazz was saying was that it all came together
>for him during the haijj.
>

What all came together for him during Hajj??

>>Thirdly, I refuse to believe that MX was naive enough to
>>believe in this ritual meaning much of anything.
>
>WTF??? What b.s. is this? Plenty of Muslims around the world
>take haijj very seriously.
>

Hajj, like many other ceremonial practices of various religions is just a ritual. It has nothing to do with how you live and practice what you preach on a daily basis. And the most common person knows that religion is not what you preach, but what you put into practice. A ritual that you may participate in, once in a lifetime (if you're lucky or financially blessed, maybe more than once), is not daily practice, needless to say.

>>And lastly, I assume that you believe the NOI should
>practice
>>a non-race prejudiced based Islam like the Islamic Arabs
>>enslaving and committing all kinds of abuses and atrocities
>>against Black Afrikans in the Sudan.
>
>But you cannot generalize Islam or any religion. Corruption
>was everywhere. You should check out The Power of Nightmares:
>

I guess you missed my point. Many try to accuse EM of not teaching "True Islam" because he based it in Blackness, and took a nationalistic approach with it. They will point out how Islamic Arabs claim that this type of teaching is not Islam. I was pointing out that many who try to take this stance against EM and the NOI need to look at how the Arabs have used Islam in a non-race based, non-nationalistic way in the Sudan with their treatment of Black people (strong sarcasm here).

I respect all religions, in theory; too bad most of 'em are not truly, properly carried out in practice.


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Nettrice
Charter member
61747 posts
Mon Jun-12-06 12:49 AM

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85. "RE: Power of nightmares"
In response to Reply # 83
Mon Jun-12-06 12:50 AM by Nettrice

  

          

>Says who? Who is this guy? From what I can tell, this is
>only the opinion of a guy who is doing a book review.

Well, that's all we have been talking about is opinions...your opinion, my opinion, NOI, Malcolm X, and so on. Opinions, i.e. positions, are only opinions. I respect some of them but I take few of them seriously.

>That is nothing new. The NOI has always had numerous
>individuals serving in varying capacities of leadership. But
>Elijah was one the one who issued the top level orders that
>superceded all others and were to be followed by all in the
>NOI. This was up until his time of death. These "leaders"
>took orders from Elijah just like everybody else in the NOI.

Is this fact or merely another opinion...in other words how do you know this to be true?

>Provided a link to what; to show what; to prove what?

COINTELPRO

"Karl Evanzz, a staff writer for the Washington Post, researched more than 300,000 pages of declassified FBI and CIA documents for his book, The Judas Factor. In its introduction he states, "After analyzing these resources, I am convinced that Louis E. Lomax, an industrious African-American journalist who befriended Malcolm X in the late 1950's, had practically solved the riddle of his assassination." He believed that Malcolm X was set up for the assassination by a former friend, John Ali, who was an agent/informer for an intelligence agency. Malcolm X had previously commented that Ali had been responsible for his ouster from the NOI. Ali eventually rose to the position of National Secretary of the NOI. Lomax was later killed in an automobile accident (due to brake failure)." - http://www.crimelibrary.com/terrorists_spies/assassins/malcolm_x/4.html

The article goes on to claim that "government and law enforcement agencies planted infiltrators in the OAAU, NOI and almost all of the other civil rights movement organizations. Some of these agent/informers were highly placed."

Now let's go back read what I wrote:
"NOI do not do anything without a directive. Even if they had been working for the FBI they could not have just acted on their own. My point is that the assassins were getting directives from the FBI and NOI. It was the same directive."

Logic would follow that directives coming from highly placed agents within the NOI would lead to a similar outcome as the very organization that planted those agents in the first place. I just don't buy that Elijah Muhammad was the only one giving directives within the NOI. Of course, this is just my opinion.

>So do you believe that EM was deliberately and conscioulsly
>working with the FBI?

See above.

>To hire someone; to give somone a job who hadn't done anything
>wrong, is that fishy to me??? Nahhhh. I guess you don't
>believe in hiring the innocent, huh?

There's still some doubt about the guy's innocence. Witnesses provided his name.

>Internallly generated document or old Muhammad Speaks
>newspapers? What?? What documents did he show you "to prove
>his case"?

He did not try to prove anything. He showed me something written by someone named Wallace and other than that I can't recall. I was 16 then...more than half my life ago. However, I do remember that he told me to take whatever I heard with a grain of salt and I do. I am not taking any positions.

>Honestly, I don't have to ask the Mormons anything. Wait a
>minute...why would you want me to ask the Mormons?

Because polygamy is illegal.

>Below is an excerpt from Elijah Muhammad's publication,
>Message to the Blackman in America, in the chapter, "Islam for
>so-called Negroes (p. 82):
>
>"...The main principles of action in Islam: keeping up
>prayer, spending in the cause of truth, fasting especially
>during the month of Ramadan, pilgrimage to Mecca..."

But why do these things? You don't just do them blindly because someone said so...do you? I don't.

>What all came together for him during Hajj??

I already posted that quote from Shabazz.

>Hajj, like many other ceremonial practices of various
>religions is just a ritual. It has nothing to do with how you
>live and practice what you preach on a daily basis.

Then that is a shame (or sham) like most religious activities IMO.

>I guess you missed my point. Many try to accuse EM of not
>teaching "True Islam" because he based it in Blackness, and
>took a nationalistic approach with it. They will point out
>how Islamic Arabs claim that this type of teaching is not
>Islam. I was pointing out that many who try to take this
>stance against EM and the NOI need to look at how the Arabs
>have used Islam in a non-race based, non-nationalistic way in
>the Sudan with their treatment of Black people (strong sarcasm
>here).

Okay.

>I respect all religions, in theory; too bad most of 'em are
>not truly, properly carried out in practice.

I agree, esp. that religion and politics are horrible bedfellows.

<--- Blame this lady for Nutty.

  

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jambone
Member since Aug 08th 2005
24803 posts
Wed Jun-07-06 10:08 AM

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60. "Interesting..."
In response to Reply # 58
Wed Jun-07-06 10:27 AM by jambone

  

          

>>
>>No it doesn't it all. You are fishing. Did you notice the
>>people following him when he travelled overseas in the
>movie?
>>Or were they just two arbitrary white guys sent by NOI? Come
>>on. Or how about the phone tapping of his phones by these 2
>>white guys in the movie? Or the part where Malcolm says "its
>>more than just the Nation...".
>>
>Yes, I noticed those guys following MX and who can forget the
>agents listening in to MX speak to his wife and comment that
>he's a saint compared to King.
>
>So what????? Indicating that the CIA may've been following
>Malcolm and showing that the FBI was listening to his phone
>conversations does not reveal the extent to which U.S.
>Intelligence agencies were involved in Malcolm's murder. It
>doesn't even come close to disclosing their involvement. It
>just makes them look like some nosey motherfuckers, akin to
>Mrs. Cravitts on Bewitched, instead low-down, deceitful
>murdering sons-of-bitches. Anyone who walks away with the
>former view of the CIA and FBI in Malcolm's death as opposed
>to the latter view is a problem to me. But if you have no
>problem with it, that's on you.
>

I don't have a problem with it. You know why? Because as I researched further I found out more about Malcolm and how he was a problem not only for the NOI, but also the U.S. and countries across the globe. But this was before the movie. But see, I don't expect a movie to solely educate me, maybe you do. The movie did its job. It planted a seed, and caused you to do more digging on the subject if you wanted to. Malcolm's entire life could not be reduced to 3 1/2 hours. But again, people want to nitpick.

>
>>Divide and conquer? Did the Nation *not* want Malcolm dead?
>>Answer that question? Did Elijah Muhammad junior *no* say he
>>want to cut out Malcolm's toungue and send it to his father?
>>Was the FBI, NYPD, CIA involved? Yes. John Ali was an
>>informant. But they exploited an already existing
>relationship
>>in which the Nation wanted Malcolm dead.
>
>I can't speak to individuals, but I know that the official
>word from Elijah Muhammad was to leave Malcolm alone.

Do you know the history of the NOI and its form of "sacrifices" back in the day. Do you know they were shooting and killing their members around the time they were trying to hunt down Malcolm X? And they killed a lot more after Malcolm's death.


>It is
>well known that the organization had more than its fair share
>of zealots who were unhappy with Malcolm,

Elijah Muhammad included.

>viewed him as a
>traitor, and thought that he should be dealt with, but that
>doesn't speak to the head of the organization, because the
>official word was to leave him alone.
>

Really? lol. Elijah Muhammad was jealous of Malcolm as well. He felt eclipsed by Malcolm and feared that Malcolm would leave and build another movement just like Malcolm had built the Nation to what it had become. The Nation was nothing before Malcolm came on the scene. Do some research, brother? Elijah Muhammad knew what was going on, and didn't mind Malcolm being silenced.


>
> They made attempts on
>>his life and firebombed his house all over nothing but
>>jealousy.
>
>Who are you saying bombed his house? The NOI? How do you
>know this? If you know for certain who bombed his house, I'd
>like for you to go one better for me and Inbox me the next big
>pay Lotto numbers.
>

Captain Joseph X of temple #7 of the NOI admitted to bombing the house before his died in the early 90's. And in the video "Make it Plain" Joesph X tried to avoid the issue when they asked him about who bombed Malcolm's house. He said he didn't know, but had guilt written all over his face in that documentary. But Joseph admitted to bombing the house.

>
>Who contributed more to the old divide and conquer,
>>brother? The "gubment" or blacks themeselves. That is what
>>Spike was getting at. Its why he chose to leave that quote
>of
>>Malcolm in the movie of "n*ggas ruined it". Were there
>outside
>>forces? Yes. But the heart of the problem existed within the
>>Nation. Not outside of it. THAT is what Spike chose to focus
>>on. The crux of the matter.
>
>We are a flawed people with many, many problems and anytime we
>attempt to get together on anything, there is a destructive
>mechanism that tends to take place (some identify it as the
>"Willie Lynch chip") that blocks us from gelling completely
>and often things turn out to be a total mess.

lol. This is a joke. See, that is a problem right there. They only have power when you give it too them. Forget that "willie lynch" bullsh*t. It comes down to responsibility. When are black people going to take responsibility for themselves and predicament and stop blaiming "the man". See, THAT notion was in the movie, brother. But if you weren't nitpicking so much, you probably wouldn't have missed that key concept. That was the essence of Malcolm. THAT was in the movie.

>I don't deny
>that we, as a people, have problems; but I also realize that
>this is not something that is inherent in us.

Its inherent in all people. Weak people choose to adhere and abide by it. Malcolm was not weak. The NOI was. That is why Malcolm left or was forced out. Again, THAT was in the movie.

>It is the
>result of centuries of outside forces conditioning us and
>influencing us. I acknowledge that.
>

And it will be centuries before blacks actually get anywhere unless they lose the inferiority complex when it comes to whites and teh so-called power structures. Why don't you acknowledge that? THAT was in the movie, brother. Its all in the mind.

>At the same time, I can not turn a blind eye and ignore when
>we have been deliberately and blatantly been fucked with.

Right, the learned helplessness syndrome. That is what Malcolm X was totally against. THAT was in the movie.


>Malcolm's murder was the result one of these instances of us
>being deliberately and blatantly being fucked with by
>outsiders who obviously did not and do not have our best
>interest at heart.

Malcolm's murder was the result of the NOI with assistance from those outside forces. He wasn't the first NOI member to be f*cked up and gunned down. Do some research. Malcolm's murder was the result of fear,jealousy, and the quest for power within the NOI with help from the FBI, CIA, NYPD, and United States. The gestation and core root of this problem was birthed in the NOI. The outside forces didn't have much work to do. It was going to be done with or without them.


>
>
>>
>>
>>>Its a 3 hour movie. Malcolm X
>>>>lived several lifetimes in 39 1/2 years. There were always
>>>>going to be things missing that aren't in the movie. I
>>don't
>>>>understand that criticism.
>>>
>>>Agreed. And he could've cut down on some of the non-sense
>>>jitterbug time at the beginning and inserted a strong
>>>implication (at the very least) that imperialist interests
>>>were threatened by MX and his vision and ultimate goal and
>>>that US Intelligence along with other like agencies in
>other
>>>nations were making serious moves to eliminate him.
>>>
>>
>>Right, and if he did that, critics would say why did he just
>>cover the latter part of his life? Why did he just cover
>that
>>aspect? Warner Brothers didn't even want him to give a 3 hr
>>limit? Come on now, you are fishing for straws.
>>
>First of all dude, I don't fish. If you enjoyed the movie for
>it's entertainment value, that's fine, but don't try to make
>it seem like this was all that great of an adaptation of MX's
>life, because IMO, it wasn't.

Right, because Spike made up every event in the movie, lol. Okay, to each his own. You want to blame the white power structure, fine. That is what makes Spike great. He can't win with anybody. He chose to make you look in the mirror. You don't want to look in the mirror. You want the blame to go somebody else.

> No doubt, Malcolm's life was
>complex and there was a lot that can still be told no matter
>what all is included, but to focus and shucking and jiving and
>partying and bullshitting as much as he chose to was
>ridiculous and disappointing.
>

All that stuff was in his life. Why don't you blame Malcolm for putting it in his autobiography. Maybe you need to watch the movie again. Because the focus was not "shucking and jiving and
>partying and bullshitting". Those events in Boston and Harlem shaped Malcolm X as a person. It was part of his development. Malcolm even said himself guys with his type of background who could transform themselves to do good are the most devastingly effective people to help the problems and plight of the black community. That was extremely relevant. Its part of his life. Apparently you wanted another movie.

>
>>>Instead, Spike leaves the viewer with the impression of
>this
>>>being just simply another case of Black on Black violence.
>>>And MX's murder was much bigger than that.
>>>
>>
>>
>>Yes it was. But it doesn't ingnore the fact that his own
>>brothers wanted him canceled for no reason but their own
>>jealousy of his power.
>>
>
>Some may've wanted him dead, I'll give you that; but that
>doesn't mean that they killed him.

lol. I mean, nobody from the NOI pulled the trigger.

>What makes you think that
>the hostility towards Malcolm was purely jealousy and envy as
>if there were no other issues involved?

When did I say there weren't other issues involved? But the core of the hostility towards Malcolm was jealousy and fear amongst his brethren in the Nation. The Nation had a lot of crooked people. They were thieves. They were stealing money, they enjoyed their little positions of power. And they all were jockeying for the top job. Malcolm was nothing like that. He was the heir apparent to Elijah Muhammad. They had to get rid of him, because Malcolm did succeed, he would have gotten rid of them and cleaned up the Nation for its own good.

See,a lot of the NOI were frauds. It was a hustle for a lot them, Elijah Muhammad included. They had a good thing going. Money was coming in. Malcolm, in the name of righteousness, was disrupting the hustle that existed. Those hustling crooks were able to enjoy those fruits because Malcolm had built the movement through his own personal labor in the name of Allah. Malcolm's movement was built on righteousness. That is why in the movie,in one of its most telling scenes, Malcolm throws it back at Baines and says, "I'm telling you God's words not no hustle...Brother Baines is a 2-bit hustler and one hand washes the other". The divide was there. See, that wasn't entertainment. That was a depiction of the reality that existed within the Nation of Islam.

> You've been watching
>this comfounded movie too much.
>

Actually, I've done my research, brother. Its what Malcolm was all about. He did not rely on one resource for information. If he did he would have been crippled, mentally like most in the Nation were and like a lot of them are today with Farrakhan as the leader. And the Nation wouldn't have become the movement it became wit Malcolm as its spokesman. He was exhaustive in acquiring information. That is why his mind, power, and force was untouchable. The only way to get rid of him was kill him. You've been watching the confounded movie in your head too much.


>>>
>>>>
>>>>This is a great movie to capture Malcolm and his life. Its
>>>not
>>>>going to cover every minute detail. It encourages you to
>>>seek
>>>>more about Malcolm and learn more about him.
>>>>
>>>No doubt. But unfortunately, for the masses, more indepth
>>>research is not going to occur. So this movie, for all
>it's
>>>worth, is going to be their education on and impression of
>>MX.
>>> This is the sad reality.
>>>
>>
>>Is that Spike's fault or the masses?
>
>The intellectual laziness of the masses is not Spikes fault
>and I never claimed that it was. I feel that if Spike is
>going to make a movie on a man like Malcolm, who means so many
>things to so many people, he should be responsible and
>represent Malcolm's image properly and intelligently, because
>for many, if they don't get that at this movie, they're not
>gonna get it at all, ever.

Again, Spike represented Malcolm's image properly and intelligently. Again, you are blaiming Spike for what others don't do. That isn't Spike's fault. Spike did his part. And he did a damn good job of it. The onus is on everybody else to do their part, brother. You and myself included.


>
>>
>>>
>>>>Spike can't win with the critics.
>>>
>>>When you take on a project like this that involves an
>ICONIC
>>>figure like MX, you'd better expect some criticism. I
>mean,
>>>it comes with the territory.
>>>
>>
>>Really? No matter how great that movie is? I see. lol
>>
>
>Yes, criticism comes with the territory, especially when you
>do a theatrical reflection of Malcolm, so expect it.
>Honestly, it's one of those things where you just can't please
>everybody.

As we see with your posts. lol

>And "great" is relative and completely subjective.
> And even if a movie is considered "great" as a general
>concensus, that doesn't keep it from being a thing that can be
>critiqued and criticized.
>

Critizied and critiqued is one thing. Nitpicking because its Spike Lee who directed the movie, is another.


>
>
>
>>>
>>>Thats what makes Malcolm X
>>>>the movie even more special. It can't be denied because
>its
>>>so
>>>>good. Sure, the critics will find flaws and nitpick. But
>>>deep
>>>>in their hearts they know its a masterpiece. And they
>can't
>>>>stand it. lol
>>>>
>>>It was a good piece of entertainment that was BASED ON the
>>>life and times and death of Malcolm X. No more, no less.
>>>
>>
>>When did Spike or the marketing department say otherwise. It
>>says right on the DVD package as such.
>
>Agreed. Good entertainment is all the movie really was when
>it comes down to it.

lol. Right, there was nothing factual in the movie. LMAO!!

>And I guess that's where I differ with
>you and most:

^^I'm on my own (c) Pattie Labelle. lol

>If given a choice between watching this movie
>or watching a documentary on Malcom, I will ALWAYS select the
>documentary.
>

Good for you. Because the documentary will cover every angle of Malcolm's life. lol Thats why there are so many of them and each one leaves out a lot of information that is important. lol

<--- we've got bush!

  

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CaptainRook
Charter member
4936 posts
Wed Jun-07-06 11:25 PM

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63. "RE: Interesting..."
In response to Reply # 60


  

          

>I don't have a problem with it. You know why? Because as I
>researched further I found out more about Malcolm and how he
>was a problem not only for the NOI, but also the U.S. and
>countries across the globe. But this was before the movie.
>But see, I don't expect a movie to solely educate me, maybe
>you do. The movie did its job. It planted a seed, and caused
>you to do more digging on the subject if you wanted to.
>Malcolm's entire life could not be reduced to 3 1/2 hours. But
>again, people want to nitpick.
>
Well, you need to also research the likes of Gabriel Prosser, Denmark Vessey, Dr. M.L. King and the U.N.I.A. and Black Panther Party Movements. Maybe, just maybe you will detect a pattern of how the powers in this nation react to what they detect maybe a disruption of the ol' status quo. But then again maybe you won't.

The movie planted a seed that has yet to bear any fruit. Since that movie came out, we've seen Hip Hop music go from a socially/politically/culturally conscious movement, in some respects, to an all time low of decadence. I'm not saying that this reality is Spikes fault or is the fault of the movie, but can you name one activists who claims that this movie changed their life?


>
>Do you know the history of the NOI and its form of
>"sacrifices" back in the day.

Well, history according to who? There is always two sides to every story. If you were to ask me if I knew the history of the Native Americans that inhabitted this land first and I said no, I would get a very different picture painted for me, depending on who's doing the story telling.

Do you know they were shooting
>and killing their members around the time they were trying to
>hunt down Malcolm X? And they killed a lot more after
>Malcolm's death.
>

Source please. A link, a book, a magazine article, something.


>>It is
>>well known that the organization had more than its fair
>share
>>of zealots who were unhappy with Malcolm,
>
>Elijah Muhammad included.
>

What is your basis for the above allegation?



>>viewed him as a
>>traitor, and thought that he should be dealt with, but that
>>doesn't speak to the head of the organization, because the
>>official word was to leave him alone.
>>
>
>Really? lol. Elijah Muhammad was jealous of Malcolm as well.
>He felt eclipsed by Malcolm and feared that Malcolm would
>leave and build another movement just like Malcolm had built
>the Nation to what it had become. The Nation was nothing
>before Malcolm came on the scene. Do some research, brother?
>Elijah Muhammad knew what was going on, and didn't mind
>Malcolm being silenced.
>
I see. This is a very popular opinion. And I can't say that I disagree with everything that you've stated above, but I will say that I don't believer that Elijah was not jealous of Malcolm. I really don't know if he was or not and neither do you, but I don't believe that that was the case.

However, I will grant that Malcolm played a MAJOR, MAJOR role in building up the NOI. Who can deny that. The contributions he made to the organization are immeasurable.

On a side note: It is common belief/opinion/mode of thought among many that Malcolm was brilliant and Elijah was just some bumbling idiot, incapable of void real intellect. This is thinking is evil and just plain wrong. While Malcolm was very much a self-taught man, much of what he learned and what we came to love as Malcolm X, was the result of Elijah's work, teaching/mentoring, leading, and influencing Malcolm. Please check your Elijah hate barometer; it's off da charts.

Do some research? Brother, there are so many books, articles, documentaries, etc. that have been done on Malcolm, Elijah Muhammad and the NOI that I don't know where to begin to gain the understanding and perspective that you have formed for yourself. YOU NEED TO REFERENCE THESE THINGS TO MAKE YOUR CASE PROPERLY!!!!!


>
>>
>>
>
>Captain Joseph X of temple #7 of the NOI admitted to bombing
>the house before his died in the early 90's.

Source please.


And in the video
>"Make it Plain" Joesph X tried to avoid the issue when they
>asked him about who bombed Malcolm's house. He said he didn't
>know, but had guilt written all over his face in that
>documentary. But Joseph admitted to bombing the house.
>

This is a matter of complete subjective interpretation. I saw this video presentation and I didn't see guilt on Yusef Shah's (f/k/a Joseph Ali) face; I saw contempt, I saw anger, I saw quite outrage; but I didn't see jealousy. As a matter of fact, he had the attitude that said to me, "If I did it, I'd tell ya to ya damn face, 'Yeah, I did it so what about, motherfucker?'"




>>
>>Who contributed more to the old divide and conquer,
>>>brother? The "gubment" or blacks themeselves. That is what
>>>Spike was getting at. Its why he chose to leave that quote
>>of
>>>Malcolm in the movie of "n*ggas ruined it". Were there
>>outside
>>>forces? Yes. But the heart of the problem existed within
>the
>>>Nation. Not outside of it. THAT is what Spike chose to
>focus
>>>on. The crux of the matter.
>>
>>We are a flawed people with many, many problems and anytime
>we
>>attempt to get together on anything, there is a destructive
>>mechanism that tends to take place (some identify it as the
>>"Willie Lynch chip") that blocks us from gelling completely
>>and often things turn out to be a total mess.
>
>lol. This is a joke. See, that is a problem right there. They
>only have power when you give it too them.

They have the power and they will have it until we decide that we are going to take it. This whole society and system is constructedto
assure that they do not lose power. See Marimba Ani's "Yurugu" for an indepth analysis of this.

Forget that "willie
>lynch" bullsh*t. It comes down to responsibility. When are
>black people going to take responsibility for themselves and
>predicament and stop blaiming "the man".

Is this question rhetorical?

See, THAT notion was
>in the movie, brother. But if you weren't nitpicking so much,
>you probably wouldn't have missed that key concept. That was
>the essence of Malcolm. THAT was in the movie.
>

I wasn't nitpicking; my issues with the movie are real. Also, I am a fan of Spike Lee; I just wasn't all that crazy about the "Malcolm X" movie.

>>I don't deny
>>that we, as a people, have problems; but I also realize that
>>this is not something that is inherent in us.
>
>Its inherent in all people. Weak people choose to adhere and
>abide by it. Malcolm was not weak. The NOI was. That is why
>Malcolm left or was forced out. Again, THAT was in the movie.
>

I was speaking about us, not all people. Many our problems and how we obtained these problems are unique to us as people. That's just how that is. The NOI was not perfect and it had flawed individuals among its members, but the organization was not weak. And it is blasphemous for you to make such a statement.





>>It is the
>>result of centuries of outside forces conditioning us and
>>influencing us. I acknowledge that.
>>
>
>And it will be centuries before blacks actually get anywhere
>unless they lose the inferiority complex when it comes to
>whites and teh so-called power structures. Why don't you
>acknowledge that? THAT was in the movie, brother. Its all in
>the mind.

What was in the movie? Where was it? Cite an example, please?


>
>>At the same time, I can not turn a blind eye and ignore when
>>we have been deliberately and blatantly been fucked with.
>
>Right, the learned helplessness syndrome. That is what Malcolm
>X was totally against. THAT was in the movie.
>
>
>Malcolm's murder was the result of the NOI with assistance
>from those outside forces. He wasn't the first NOI member to
>be f*cked up and gunned down.

Source please.



>Do some research.

What and where do you want me to research?

Malcolm's
>murder was the result of fear,jealousy, and the quest for
>power within the NOI with help from the FBI, CIA, NYPD, and
>United States.

What is the basis of the above statement? Is it merely your opinion, is it your opinion based on some citable fact evidence, is it a published fact?

If facts are involed please cite a source.



The gestation and core root of this problem was
>birthed in the NOI. The outside forces didn't have much work
>to do. It was going to be done with or without them.

You have got to be kidding. To quote our beloved elder and now Most Honored Ancestor, John H. Clarke, in his autobiographical documentary "A Long and Mighty Walk", he stated, in sum that he believed that Farrakhan's rheteric contributed to the atmosphere that enabled Malcolm to be assassinated. He also stated that he believed that Malcolm's death was bigger than some local, domestic squabble with the NOI. And then he also stated that he believed Malcolm would've been assassinated had there not been a Farrakhan.





>
>
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Its a 3 hour movie. Malcolm X
>>>>>lived several lifetimes in 39 1/2 years. There were
>always
>>>>>going to be things missing that aren't in the movie. I
>>>don't
>>>>>understand that criticism.
>>>>
>>>>Agreed. And he could've cut down on some of the non-sense
>>>>jitterbug time at the beginning and inserted a strong
>>>>implication (at the very least) that imperialist interests
>>>>were threatened by MX and his vision and ultimate goal and
>>>>that US Intelligence along with other like agencies in
>>other
>>>>nations were making serious moves to eliminate him.
>>>>
>>>
>>>Right, and if he did that, critics would say why did he
>just
>>>cover the latter part of his life? Why did he just cover
>>that
>>>aspect? Warner Brothers didn't even want him to give a 3 hr
>>>limit? Come on now, you are fishing for straws.
>>>
>>First of all dude, I don't fish. If you enjoyed the movie
>for
>>it's entertainment value, that's fine, but don't try to make
>>it seem like this was all that great of an adaptation of
>MX's
>>life, because IMO, it wasn't.
>
>Right, because Spike made up every event in the movie, lol.
>Okay, to each his own. You want to blame the white power
>structure, fine.

Spike didn't make up every event but he definitely used cinematic license and his goal IMO was definitely to entertain before inform or educate.

That is what makes Spike great. He can't win
>with anybody.

Spike Lee's greatness is not up for debate; there's no questioning it.


He chose to make you look in the mirror. You
>don't want to look in the mirror.

I look in the mirror everyday; I a'int got no problem with that. But I can look in the mirror and watch my back at the same time.

You want the blame to go
>somebody else.
>

It's not about blaming somebody else; it's about looking at the whole situation and judging it based on facts and evidence; not just mere personal opinion.


>> No doubt, Malcolm's life was
>>complex and there was a lot that can still be told no matter
>>what all is included, but to focus and shucking and jiving
>and
>>partying and bullshitting as much as he chose to was
>>ridiculous and disappointing.
>>
>
>All that stuff was in his life. Why don't you blame Malcolm
>for putting it in his autobiography. Maybe you need to watch
>the movie again. Because the focus was not "shucking and
>jiving and
>>partying and bullshitting". Those events in Boston and Harlem
>shaped Malcolm X as a person. It was part of his development.
>Malcolm even said himself guys with his type of background who
>could transform themselves to do good are the most devastingly
>effective people to help the problems and plight of the black
>community. That was extremely relevant. Its part of his life.
>Apparently you wanted another movie.
>

It's fine that he inclued the fact that Malcolm was a street guy in the movie, but I just think that he should've given at least equal time to the Intelligence Community's role in assassinating Malcolm, not just spying on him or keeping tabs on him, but moving to eliminate him.


>>
>>>>Instead, Spike leaves the viewer with the impression of
>>this
>>>>being just simply another case of Black on Black violence.
>
>>>>And MX's murder was much bigger than that.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Yes it was. But it doesn't ingnore the fact that his own
>>>brothers wanted him canceled for no reason but their own
>>>jealousy of his power.
>>>
>>
>>Some may've wanted him dead, I'll give you that; but that
>>doesn't mean that they killed him.
>
>lol. I mean, nobody from the NOI pulled the trigger.
>
Actually, only one out of the 5 that were involved is actually known to have been in the NOI. The rest were most likely FBI agents or recruits.

You don't believe me? Well check the book, "The Assassination of Malcolm X", by George Breitman and "Conspiracy: Unraveling the Assasination of Malcolm X" by Baba Zak Kondo.

In the mean time, you can chew on the links below to tide you over until you get a hold of the above referenced literature:

http://www.leftgatekeepers.com/articles/WhoEliminatedMalcolmXByBobFeldman.htm

http://partners.nytimes.com/library/film/022193lee-malcolm-book.html

Maybe they will provide some insight into what I've been talking about.



>>What makes you think that
>>the hostility towards Malcolm was purely jealousy and envy
>as
>>if there were no other issues involved?
>
>When did I say there weren't other issues involved? But the
>core of the hostility towards Malcolm was jealousy and fear
>amongst his brethren in the Nation. The Nation had a lot of
>crooked people. They were thieves. They were stealing money,
>they enjoyed their little positions of power. And they all
>were jockeying for the top job. Malcolm was nothing like that.
>He was the heir apparent to Elijah Muhammad. They had to get
>rid of him, because Malcolm did succeed, he would have gotten
>rid of them and cleaned up the Nation for its own good.
>

>See,a lot of the NOI were frauds. It was a hustle for a lot
>them, Elijah Muhammad included. They had a good thing going.
>Money was coming in. Malcolm, in the name of righteousness,
>was disrupting the hustle that existed. Those hustling crooks
>were able to enjoy those fruits because Malcolm had built the
>movement through his own personal labor in the name of Allah.
>Malcolm's movement was built on righteousness. That is why in
>the movie,in one of its most telling scenes, Malcolm throws it
>back at Baines and says, "I'm telling you God's words not no
>hustle...Brother Baines is a 2-bit hustler and one hand washes
>the other". The divide was there. See, that wasn't
>entertainment. That was a depiction of the reality that
>existed within the Nation of Islam.
>

These are strong words and allegations that you are making in the above diatribe. I mean, you didn't declare that there were a few who were stealing and thieving; you just made it sound like the whole NOI was an organization filled with crooks. What are these allegations based upon? YOU MUST BACK UP THESE TYPES OF ALLEGATIONS WITH EVIDENCE!!

Bring some real facts to the table, not empty quotes from that silly movie.


>> You've been watching
>>this comfounded movie too much.
>>
>
>Actually, I've done my research, brother. Its what Malcolm was
>all about. He did not rely on one resource for information. If
>he did he would have been crippled, mentally like most in the
>Nation were and like a lot of them are today with Farrakhan as
>the leader. And the Nation wouldn't have become the movement
>it became wit Malcolm as its spokesman. He was exhaustive in
>acquiring information. That is why his mind, power, and force
>was untouchable. The only way to get rid of him was kill him.
>You've been watching the confounded movie in your head too
>much.
>
>

Brother, you are a Malcolm worshipper. Malcolm was a GREAT man, but he had flaws and played a part in the atmosphere that led to his own assassination. If you recognize that, nothing that I say to you on this matter will make sense to you.


>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>This is a great movie to capture Malcolm and his life.
>Its
>>>>not
>>>>>going to cover every minute detail. It encourages you to
>>>>seek
>>>>>more about Malcolm and learn more about him.
>>>>>
>>>>No doubt. But unfortunately, for the masses, more indepth
>>>>research is not going to occur. So this movie, for all
>>it's
>>>>worth, is going to be their education on and impression of
>>>MX.
>>>> This is the sad reality.
>>>>
>>>
>>>Is that Spike's fault or the masses?
>>
>>The intellectual laziness of the masses is not Spikes fault
>>and I never claimed that it was. I feel that if Spike is
>>going to make a movie on a man like Malcolm, who means so
>many
>>things to so many people, he should be responsible and
>>represent Malcolm's image properly and intelligently,
>because
>>for many, if they don't get that at this movie, they're not
>>gonna get it at all, ever.
>
>Again, Spike represented Malcolm's image properly and
>intelligently. Again, you are blaiming Spike for what others
>don't do. That isn't Spike's fault. Spike did his part. And he
>did a damn good job of it. The onus is on everybody else to do
>their part, brother. You and myself included.
>

I'm not blaming Spike for what others don't do; I'm blaming Spike for what he didn't do.

>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Spike can't win with the critics.
>>>>
>>>>When you take on a project like this that involves an
>>ICONIC
>>>>figure like MX, you'd better expect some criticism. I
>>mean,
>>>>it comes with the territory.
>>>>
>>>
>>>Really? No matter how great that movie is? I see. lol
>>>
>>
>>Yes, criticism comes with the territory, especially when you
>>do a theatrical reflection of Malcolm, so expect it.
>>Honestly, it's one of those things where you just can't
>please
>>everybody.
>
>As we see with your posts. lol
>

You're critical you damn self and on top of that, much of your criticism appears to be unfounded.


>>And "great" is relative and completely subjective.
>> And even if a movie is considered "great" as a general
>>concensus, that doesn't keep it from being a thing that can
>be
>>critiqued and criticized.
>>
>
>Critizied and critiqued is one thing. Nitpicking because its
>Spike Lee who directed the movie, is another.
>
>
Man look, I'm a fan of Spike's work. I love that brother and what he has brought to celluloid for us as a people. I was just a lil' disappointed in this movie. It was good movie and he did fairly well considering how tall the task was, but I just felt he came up short (no put intended).


>>
>>
>>
>>>>
>>>>Thats what makes Malcolm X
>>>>>the movie even more special. It can't be denied because
>>its
>>>>so
>>>>>good. Sure, the critics will find flaws and nitpick. But
>>>>deep
>>>>>in their hearts they know its a masterpiece. And they
>>can't
>>>>>stand it. lol
>>>>>
>>>>It was a good piece of entertainment that was BASED ON the
>>>>life and times and death of Malcolm X. No more, no less.
>>>>
>>>
>>>When did Spike or the marketing department say otherwise.
>It
>>>says right on the DVD package as such.
>>
>>Agreed. Good entertainment is all the movie really was when
>>it comes down to it.
>
>lol. Right, there was nothing factual in the movie. LMAO!!
>

Spike's goal IMO was to primarily entertain and not inform or educate.


>>If given a choice between watching this movie
>>or watching a documentary on Malcom, I will ALWAYS select
>the
>>documentary.
>>
>
>Good for you. Because the documentary will cover every angle
>of Malcolm's life. lol Thats why there are so many of them and
>each one leaves out a lot of information that is important.
>lol
>
>
I don't care if a presentation covers every single facet of his life. I am just more into seeing and hearing Malcolm speak for himself instead of watching Denzel or anyone else "play" Malcolm for primarily entertainment purposes. But that's just me. You do you.

<<<<"Nothings more attractive than a heavy praying woman" © Andre 3000

  

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jambone
Member since Aug 08th 2005
24803 posts
Thu Jun-08-06 10:21 AM

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66. "Now here goes the marathon. lol...."
In response to Reply # 63


  

          

>>I don't have a problem with it. You know why? Because as I
>>researched further I found out more about Malcolm and how he
>>was a problem not only for the NOI, but also the U.S. and
>>countries across the globe. But this was before the movie.
>>But see, I don't expect a movie to solely educate me, maybe
>>you do. The movie did its job. It planted a seed, and caused
>>you to do more digging on the subject if you wanted to.
>>Malcolm's entire life could not be reduced to 3 1/2 hours.
>But
>>again, people want to nitpick.
>>
>Well, you need to also research the likes of Gabriel Prosser,
>Denmark Vessey, Dr. M.L. King and the U.N.I.A. and Black
>Panther Party Movements. Maybe, just maybe you will detect a
>pattern of how the powers in this nation react to what they
>detect maybe a disruption of the ol' status quo. But then
>again maybe you won't.
>

Brother, I don't need to check that out. Thank you and I appreciate your offering of giving me information, but I'm already aware of that information. I'm aware of J. Edgar Hoover and his obsession and fear and torture of blacks in his high placed position. I'm aware of the powers that had been and be and what they have done to destroy black people. But I'm also aware of what black people themselves have also done to black people.


>The movie planted a seed that has yet to bear any fruit.
>Since that movie came out, we've seen Hip Hop music go from a
>socially/politically/culturally conscious movement, in some
>respects, to an all time low of decadence.

That had nothing to do with the Movie. That was what was going on at that time, brother. That was the climate. You released the same movie Malcolm X 5 years later, and it would have done worse at the box office. It would have had less impact, because the climate was different. The movie's financial success and popularity during the time of its release was because of the climate and what the people wanted. In fact, it was the tail-end of the "socially/politically/culturally conscious movement" you referred to. Hardcore rap was pushing to the forefront. The Chronic was released that year and took off and a new era was born in hip-hop. But that had nothing to do with the Movie.

> I'm not saying
>that this reality is Spikes fault or is the fault of the
>movie, but can you name one activists who claims that this
>movie changed their life?
>

Why does it have to be an activist who claims it changed their life? Why did this movie or any movie have to change someone's life. I didn't know that was a requirement of Spike. I know of several people who were deeply affected by the movie and changed for the better. Some actually joined the NOI. Can you imagine that? They aren't necessarily lip-professing activists in the national spotlight who pose has a "freedom fighter". They are actually people in the communtiy who go unnoticed. Young people were affected by this and for some it caused them to want to learn more about Malcolm X and actually go read his autobiography and do more research about the man.

In fact if you think about it, it brought his name back to life. Martin Luther King was taught in grade schools. Malcolm X wasn't.


>
>>
>>Do you know the history of the NOI and its form of
>>"sacrifices" back in the day.
>
>Well, history according to who? There is always two sides to
>every story. If you were to ask me if I knew the history of
>the Native Americans that inhabitted this land first and I
>said no, I would get a very different picture painted for me,
>depending on who's doing the story telling.
>


Well, believe what you want to believe brother, but here you go:

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/4222/noi4.html

"For a fee of ten dollars, Ford gave Islamic sounding names to cult members, Elijah and his family going through a series of name changes, finally settling on Muhammad. Among Ford's teachings, was a call for followers to sacrifice whites in order for the person 'to return to his home in Mecca.' Followers were also encouraged to believe in human sacrifice, 'of himself or his loved ones if Allah requires it.' In November of 1932, Robert Karriem Harris, one of the earliest members of 'the Nation Cult of Islam', was convicted of murder in Detroit in the sacrificial slaying of Nation follower, James J. Smith, amidst reports of other slayings. This event, referred to in Detroit as the infamous 'Voodoo Murders,' led to the confinement of Elijah Karriem (who at the time used the alias, Ghulam Bogans) to a mental ward, and the banisof his teacher, Wallace Dodd Ford to Chicago."



>Do you know they were shooting
>>and killing their members around the time they were trying
>to
>>hunt down Malcolm X? And they killed a lot more after
>>Malcolm's death.
>>
>
>Source please. A link, a book, a magazine article,
>something.
>

here is some more info from that same link:
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/4222/noi4.html

"In 1964, Aubrey Barnett, a former Boston minister under Louis X Farrakhan, quit the group after being fed up with the deceptions. Barnett was soon after viciously assaulted on a Boston street by 13 of Elijah's men. On November 5, 1964, ex-member Kenneth Morton, died from internal injuries suffered when he was beaten by four members of 'the Nation.' During the same year, Malcolm X, former national spokesman for Elijah Muhammad, renounced Elijah's organization, made Hajj and became a Muslim, and officially changed his name to Al-Hajj Malik Shabazz; openly declaring Elijah Muhammad to be a false prophet, thief and fornicator. This led to Elijah printing a series of articles critical of Malik Shabazz in issues of Muhammad Speaks, referring to Malik Shabazz as a 'hypocrite,' including a call for Malik Shabazz' death written by Louis X Farrakhan.

On January 6, 1965, ex-member Benjamin Brown, who left 'the Nation' to establish a masjid, was shot in front of his masjid. This was followed by a series of unsuccessful attempts on Malik Shabazz' life by Nation members. On February 21, 1965, Malik Shabazz was assassinated by Nation members in New York City. This was immediately followed by the brutal beating in Boston of Leon 4X Ameer, a former bodyguard for Malik Shabazz. Left in a coma for weeks as a result of the beating, Ameer emerged from the hospital in a vegetative state with permanent brain damage. He died shortly thereafter.

In 1971, twenty-five Nation members walked out of Temple no. 2 in Chicago, with the complaint that not enough money collected from members was reaching poor blacks. This led to the murder of two of the dissidents. In 1972, author Hakeem A. Jamal, a friend of Malik Shabazz and like him, an outspoken critic of Elijah Muhammad, was gunned down by Nation members. On January 18, 1973 in Washington DC, the most gruesome of murders took place when several assassins were dispatched from Elijah Muhammad's Philadelphia branch temple to kill ex-follower Hamaas Abdul Khaalis, who had written dozens of letters to Elijah's temples nationwide, calling Elijah a 'lying deceiver who was stealing his followers' money and dooming them to Hell'. The assassins entered Hamaas' home, finding seven members of his family, all women and children. The assassins beat and shot the women and children numerous times, ransacking the house, then drowning two infants in a sink and tub. Hamaas' daughter Amina, who survived despite being shot six times in the head at close range, recalled that one of the killers asked her, "Why did your father write those letters?" His last words to her were, "Don't mess with Elijah." The killers fled, but after a nationwide manhunt, all were eventually captured and convicted.
"

Now in terms of Leon 4X Ameer, he was in the movie/documentary "Malcolm X" released in 1972 I believe, it was narrated by James Earl Jones. Its basically a collection of speeches of Malcolm and interviews. Its included as a bonus DVD in the release of Malcolm X the movie. Anyway, Leon was beaten severely by the NOI weeks before Malcolm X's death. Malcolm spoke at the podium and brought brother Leon to the podium. And Malcolm spoke how the NOI beat him, trying to get to Malcolm. Leon also spoke about the incident in the movie.

Now Leon is later killed after Malcolm's assasination. And this could be what you are talking about in terms of the FBI's involvement here is link you may find interesting (its 4 parts, but very interesting):

http://www.theconspiracy.us/9408/0029.html

"But one of Malcolm's top aides, Leon 4X Ameer, went to the FBI,
about, I think it was ten days after Malcolm was killed, and
indicated that he felt that there were elements not only within the
Nation of Islam proper, but within the US government that were
behind Malcolm's assassination. He then was found dead, himself,
a few days later at the age of 32 in his apartment in Boston.
Initially, they said it was suicide, then they changed that to a
drug overdose, but the final disposition of the case was that he
died of natural causes, despite the fact that he was in good health
at the age of 32. It is worth noting that Ameer took his wife and
child and relocated them from Boston prior to his death, because he
felt that his life was in danger and he did not want his wife and
child to die if and when the assassins came for him. That is still
the official version of the death of Leon Ameer, namely, natural
causes at the age of 32 within ten days of (actually it was about
a week) having visited the FBI and voiced his suspicions about U.S.
governmental involvement in the assassination of Malcolm X."







>
>>>It is
>>>well known that the organization had more than its fair
>>share
>>>of zealots who were unhappy with Malcolm,
>>
>>Elijah Muhammad included.
>>
>
>What is your basis for the above allegation?
>

Watch "Make it plain" again, brother. Listen to what Wilfred (Malcolm's oldest brother) says about getting word that Elijah and the family were unhappy that Malcolm was getting all the press and basically eclipsing Elijah in stature. Or read up on how the secretaries of Elijah said that Elijah feared Malcolm would leave and betray him. Or watch the "Brother Malcolm" dvd documentary. Where Charles 37x said that at a meeting with the NOI members in philadelphia with Elijah and Malcolm there. Elijah referred to Malcolm as the brother whom you will have to kill. Charles 37x couldn't even finish the words because he was all choked up when he said it. It was too paintful for him. These aren't things I'm pulling from out of my head, brother. This is documented information.


>
>
>>>viewed him as a
>>>traitor, and thought that he should be dealt with, but that
>>>doesn't speak to the head of the organization, because the
>>>official word was to leave him alone.
>>>
>>
>>Really? lol. Elijah Muhammad was jealous of Malcolm as well.
>>He felt eclipsed by Malcolm and feared that Malcolm would
>>leave and build another movement just like Malcolm had built
>>the Nation to what it had become. The Nation was nothing
>>before Malcolm came on the scene. Do some research, brother?
>>Elijah Muhammad knew what was going on, and didn't mind
>>Malcolm being silenced.
>>
>I see. This is a very popular opinion. And I can't say that I
>disagree with everything that you've stated above, but I will
>say that I don't believer that Elijah was not jealous of
>Malcolm. I really don't know if he was or not and neither do
>you, but I don't believe that that was the case.
>
>However, I will grant that Malcolm played a MAJOR, MAJOR role
>in building up the NOI. Who can deny that. The contributions
>he made to the organization are immeasurable.
>
>On a side note: It is common belief/opinion/mode of thought
>among many that Malcolm was brilliant and Elijah was just some
>bumbling idiot, incapable of void real intellect. This is
>thinking is evil and just plain wrong. While Malcolm was very
>much a self-taught man, much of what he learned and what we
>came to love as Malcolm X, was the result of Elijah's work,
>teaching/mentoring, leading, and influencing Malcolm. Please
>check your Elijah hate barometer; it's off da charts.
>

Not necessarily true, my brother. Now, if you read Malcolm's autobiography, Malcolm started taking correspondence classes in English, etc. to start better himself before he came across the Nation from his brothers Philbert and Reginald. Malcom was also inspired by a brother named "Bimbi" as well. Again, before he came across the teachings of Elijah Muhammad.

Now, having said that. The great man you referred to,John H. Clarke, spoke of in the "Brother Malcolm" documentary, how Malcom had a "non-muslim" cabinet. He said Malcolm was "devastatingly effective" because of his avid pursuit of information. He said Malcolm believed and knew that the muslims did not have a lot information and knowledge that was out there. He said Malcolm utilized him, John H. Clarke, in terms of information on history. Malcolm had different branches of his non-muslim cabinet from which he learned, sociology, etc. John H. Clarke referred to himself as Malcolm's "history department" of this cabinet.

So yes, Elijah Muhammad played some part in Malcolm's development, but the Malcolm also played his part in his development as well as others outside of the Nation of Islam. In fact, its one of the main reasons they wanted to get rid of Malcolm while he was in the Nation. Malcolm was leaning more and more into nationalistic talk instead of religous talk. Watch the "Make it plain" dvd again, brother. Listen to what Philber (malcolm's brother) breaks down how the differences in ideology between Malcolm's nationalistic stance vs. NOI's spiritual/religious stance. NOI, to my understanding, at that time wanted nothing to do with the political process and protests of the civil rights movement.


>Do some research? Brother, there are so many books, articles,
>documentaries, etc. that have been done on Malcolm, Elijah
>Muhammad and the NOI that I don't know where to begin to gain
>the understanding and perspective that you have formed for
>yourself. YOU NEED TO REFERENCE THESE THINGS TO MAKE YOUR
>CASE PROPERLY!!!!!
>
>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>Captain Joseph X of temple #7 of the NOI admitted to bombing
>>the house before his died in the early 90's.
>
>Source please.
>

Watch the Brother Malcolm DVD documentary. They report the fact that Joeseph X admitted to bombing the house. They also report how John Ali was an FBI informant. John Ali was a secretary in the NOI. One of the more powerful leaders in the NOI. In fact, he met with Talmage Hayer the night before the assasination of Malcolm X.
>
>And in the video
>>"Make it Plain" Joesph X tried to avoid the issue when they
>>asked him about who bombed Malcolm's house. He said he
>didn't
>>know, but had guilt written all over his face in that
>>documentary. But Joseph admitted to bombing the house.
>>
>
>This is a matter of complete subjective interpretation. I saw
>this video presentation and I didn't see guilt on Yusef Shah's
>(f/k/a Joseph Ali) face; I saw contempt, I saw anger, I saw
>quite outrage; but I didn't see jealousy. As a matter of
>fact, he had the attitude that said to me, "If I did it, I'd
>tell ya to ya damn face, 'Yeah, I did it so what about,
>motherfucker?'"
>

^^^This is subjective interpretation as well. Joseph's X whoe demeanor changed when asked that question. His body language and everything. He looked suspicsous and guilty to me. We will agree to disagree on that one.


>
>
>
>>>
>>>Who contributed more to the old divide and conquer,
>>>>brother? The "gubment" or blacks themeselves. That is what
>>>>Spike was getting at. Its why he chose to leave that quote
>>>of
>>>>Malcolm in the movie of "n*ggas ruined it". Were there
>>>outside
>>>>forces? Yes. But the heart of the problem existed within
>>the
>>>>Nation. Not outside of it. THAT is what Spike chose to
>>focus
>>>>on. The crux of the matter.
>>>
>>>We are a flawed people with many, many problems and anytime
>>we
>>>attempt to get together on anything, there is a destructive
>>>mechanism that tends to take place (some identify it as the
>>>"Willie Lynch chip") that blocks us from gelling completely
>>>and often things turn out to be a total mess.
>>
>>lol. This is a joke. See, that is a problem right there.
>They
>>only have power when you give it too them.
>
>They have the power and they will have it until we decide that
>we are going to take it. This whole society and system is
>constructedto
>assure that they do not lose power. See Marimba Ani's
>"Yurugu" for an indepth analysis of this.
>

I won't bother. I can read the Bible and The Holy Quran. The power from those 2 books speaking on the divine indominatable power is far greater than the miniscule power of the system. With God on your side, you can't go wrong.

>Forget that "willie
>>lynch" bullsh*t. It comes down to responsibility. When are
>>black people going to take responsibility for themselves and
>>predicament and stop blaiming "the man".
>
>Is this question rhetorical?
>

I don't know brother, is it?

>See, THAT notion was
>>in the movie, brother. But if you weren't nitpicking so
>much,
>>you probably wouldn't have missed that key concept. That was
>>the essence of Malcolm. THAT was in the movie.
>>
>
>I wasn't nitpicking; my issues with the movie are real. Also,
>I am a fan of Spike Lee; I just wasn't all that crazy about
>the "Malcolm X" movie.
>
>>>I don't deny
>>>that we, as a people, have problems; but I also realize
>that
>>>this is not something that is inherent in us.
>>
>>Its inherent in all people. Weak people choose to adhere and
>>abide by it. Malcolm was not weak. The NOI was. That is why
>>Malcolm left or was forced out. Again, THAT was in the
>movie.
>>
>
>I was speaking about us, not all people. Many our problems
>and how we obtained these problems are unique to us as people.
> That's just how that is. The NOI was not perfect and it had
>flawed individuals among its members, but the organization was
>not weak. And it is blasphemous for you to make such a
>statement.
>
>
>
>
>
>>>It is the
>>>result of centuries of outside forces conditioning us and
>>>influencing us. I acknowledge that.
>>>
>>
>>And it will be centuries before blacks actually get anywhere
>>unless they lose the inferiority complex when it comes to
>>whites and teh so-called power structures. Why don't you
>>acknowledge that? THAT was in the movie, brother. Its all in
>>the mind.
>
>What was in the movie? Where was it? Cite an example,
>please?
>

Why don't you listen to some of speeches in the movie that are derived verbatim from actual Malcolm speeches that occured. Why don't you look at the actions of the Nation in the movie. Weren't they becoming self-sufficient with their businesses that they owned. They stopped looking up at the white man, and looked straight into his eyes, like all men should. When Malcolm was forced out of the Nation, look at the speech he made about "whites can help but the can't join us...we have to help ourselves" Again these were taken directly from Malcolm's speeches. "Stopped begging the white man" is one of Malcolm's favorite phrases.


>
>>
>>>At the same time, I can not turn a blind eye and ignore
>when
>>>we have been deliberately and blatantly been fucked with.
>>
>>Right, the learned helplessness syndrome. That is what
>Malcolm
>>X was totally against. THAT was in the movie.
>>
>>
>>Malcolm's murder was the result of the NOI with assistance
>>from those outside forces. He wasn't the first NOI member to
>>be f*cked up and gunned down.
>
>Source please.
>

Again, brother. Refer to the links I posted above. Also check out the book "Prophet of Rage" by Aurthur Magida. It documents about some of the killings referred to earlier in my post. And it talks about a few more. It also talks about the severe beatings within the Nation amongst its members upon one antoher. They even cited an incident where Louis Farrakhan's brother-in-law was severely beaten in the basement of Louis's own temple in Boston by his captain. They told him to stop crying while getting his beating. Crying only disrespects Minister Louis.


>
>
>>Do some research.
>
>What and where do you want me to research?
>
>Malcolm's
>>murder was the result of fear,jealousy, and the quest for
>>power within the NOI with help from the FBI, CIA, NYPD, and
>>United States.
>
>What is the basis of the above statement? Is it merely your
>opinion, is it your opinion based on some citable fact
>evidence, is it a published fact?
>
>If facts are involed please cite a source.
>


Again, check out what John H. Clarke says in the "Brother Malcolm" documentary and the "Make it plain" documentary. He talks about how people in the Nation enjoyed their petty positions and how they were crooks. And if Malcolm would become the successor to Elijah he would weed out the crooks within the Nation. So, according to John H. Clarke, "the idea was to get rid of him (Malcolm) before the passing of the old man (Elijah Muhammad)". They wanted the top job, but Malcolm was in the way. He said they created an atmosphere within the Nation of Islam, Farrahkan included, to get rid of Malcolm.

Benjamin Karim, a close associate of Malcolm who was in the Nation and left when they were treating Malcolm the way they were talks about this in the "Brother Malcolm" documentary. He said the NOI had shifted its whole stance. They were instructed to ridicule and slander Malcolm in public. Benjamin said that wasn't what they were taugh initially in Islam. He said they had flipped the script. He said it wasn't right. And he said left the NOI, as well as others, because of it.

Again, I'm not talking off the top of my head. If you study and do research you can form your own conclusions. AND, when you hear it from those who were actually there,well I don't know what else to say brother. Believe what you want to believe.


>
>
>The gestation and core root of this problem was
>>birthed in the NOI. The outside forces didn't have much work
>>to do. It was going to be done with or without them.
>
>You have got to be kidding. To quote our beloved elder and
>now Most Honored Ancestor, John H. Clarke, in his
>autobiographical documentary "A Long and Mighty Walk", he
>stated, in sum that he believed that Farrakhan's rheteric
>contributed to the atmosphere that enabled Malcolm to be
>assassinated. He also stated that he believed that Malcolm's
>death was bigger than some local, domestic squabble with the
>NOI.

Yes, I know this. I've never denied this. You should really check out the "Brother Malcolm DVD". You would really like it, I think. It harps on mostly the FBI, CIA, and NYPD's involvement in getting rid of Malcolm. John H. Clarke is in there as well. It talks about things that you find is a problem with the movie Malcolm X.

But again, the core root of the problem existed within the Nation of Islam. And it made the outside forces job a lot easier to get rid of Malcolm with the NOI wanting to kill him.

>And then he also stated that he believed Malcolm would've
>been assassinated had there not been a Farrakhan.
>

Farrakhan is another post in itself, brother. lol In the Brother Malcolm documentary, John H. Clarke makes the statement "I think you need to ask Louis Farrakhan some questions, about his loyalty". He referrs to Farrakhan being trained by Malcolm and then latern not speaking up for Malcolm when he was getting slandered by the Nation and then Farrakhan leading the charge.

But Farrakhan is no threat to anybody. Farrakhan was about power and wanting to be the big fish within the Nation. And he is now. But at what price? Deep in his heart of hearts he wants a legacy for himself, amongst the masses. He wants to go down like MLK and Malcolm as being one of the great leaders talked about after his death. But Farrakhan lacked the courage they had. And Farrakhan chose power over principle when he went against Malcolm. So in trying to eclipse Malcolm by slandering him, Farrakhan is still in the shadow of Malcolm even in Malcolm's death. And will always be. Farrakhan chose wrong.




>
>
>
>
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Its a 3 hour movie. Malcolm X
>>>>>>lived several lifetimes in 39 1/2 years. There were
>>always
>>>>>>going to be things missing that aren't in the movie. I
>>>>don't
>>>>>>understand that criticism.
>>>>>
>>>>>Agreed. And he could've cut down on some of the
>non-sense
>>>>>jitterbug time at the beginning and inserted a strong
>>>>>implication (at the very least) that imperialist
>interests
>>>>>were threatened by MX and his vision and ultimate goal
>and
>>>>>that US Intelligence along with other like agencies in
>>>other
>>>>>nations were making serious moves to eliminate him.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Right, and if he did that, critics would say why did he
>>just
>>>>cover the latter part of his life? Why did he just cover
>>>that
>>>>aspect? Warner Brothers didn't even want him to give a 3
>hr
>>>>limit? Come on now, you are fishing for straws.
>>>>
>>>First of all dude, I don't fish. If you enjoyed the movie
>>for
>>>it's entertainment value, that's fine, but don't try to
>make
>>>it seem like this was all that great of an adaptation of
>>MX's
>>>life, because IMO, it wasn't.
>>
>>Right, because Spike made up every event in the movie, lol.
>>Okay, to each his own. You want to blame the white power
>>structure, fine.
>
>Spike didn't make up every event but he definitely used
>cinematic license and his goal IMO was definitely to entertain
>before inform or educate.
>
>That is what makes Spike great. He can't win
>>with anybody.
>
>Spike Lee's greatness is not up for debate; there's no
>questioning it.
>
>
>He chose to make you look in the mirror. You
>>don't want to look in the mirror.
>
>I look in the mirror everyday; I a'int got no problem with
>that. But I can look in the mirror and watch my back at the
>same time.
>
>You want the blame to go
>>somebody else.
>>
>
>It's not about blaming somebody else; it's about looking at
>the whole situation and judging it based on facts and
>evidence; not just mere personal opinion.
>
>
>>> No doubt, Malcolm's life was
>>>complex and there was a lot that can still be told no
>matter
>>>what all is included, but to focus and shucking and jiving
>>and
>>>partying and bullshitting as much as he chose to was
>>>ridiculous and disappointing.
>>>
>>
>>All that stuff was in his life. Why don't you blame Malcolm
>>for putting it in his autobiography. Maybe you need to watch
>>the movie again. Because the focus was not "shucking and
>>jiving and
>>>partying and bullshitting". Those events in Boston and
>Harlem
>>shaped Malcolm X as a person. It was part of his
>development.
>>Malcolm even said himself guys with his type of background
>who
>>could transform themselves to do good are the most
>devastingly
>>effective people to help the problems and plight of the
>black
>>community. That was extremely relevant. Its part of his
>life.
>>Apparently you wanted another movie.
>>
>
>It's fine that he inclued the fact that Malcolm was a street
>guy in the movie, but I just think that he should've given at
>least equal time to the Intelligence Community's role in
>assassinating Malcolm, not just spying on him or keeping tabs
>on him, but moving to eliminate him.
>

But the movie was about the life of Malcolm X right based on a lot of his own account, right? Not the Intelligence Community and their actions, right?


>
>>>
>>>>>Instead, Spike leaves the viewer with the impression of
>>>this
>>>>>being just simply another case of Black on Black
>violence.
>>
>>>>>And MX's murder was much bigger than that.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Yes it was. But it doesn't ingnore the fact that his own
>>>>brothers wanted him canceled for no reason but their own
>>>>jealousy of his power.
>>>>
>>>
>>>Some may've wanted him dead, I'll give you that; but that
>>>doesn't mean that they killed him.
>>
>>lol. I mean, nobody from the NOI pulled the trigger.
>>
>Actually, only one out of the 5 that were involved is actually
>known to have been in the NOI. The rest were most likely FBI
>agents or recruits.
>

Really, Check out the "Brother Malcolm" documentary. Baba Zak Kondo is in there describing the 4 other men Talmage described. He says otherwise in the DVD. According to him, they were all in the Nation of Islam, Mosque 25. Now he did say, that it seemed one of the guys, the oldest guy of the group, appeaered to be taking orders from some higher ups (most likely the intelligence community you are referring to).

Also, the documentary talks about John Ali being an informant and meeting Talmage Hayer in New York, the night before the assisination.

>You don't believe me? Well check the book, "The Assassination
>of Malcolm X", by George Breitman and "Conspiracy: Unraveling
>the Assasination of Malcolm X" by Baba Zak Kondo.
>
>In the mean time, you can chew on the links below to tide you
>over until you get a hold of the above referenced literature:
>
>http://www.leftgatekeepers.com/articles/WhoEliminatedMalcolmXByBobFeldman.htm
>
>http://partners.nytimes.com/library/film/022193lee-malcolm-book.html
>
>Maybe they will provide some insight into what I've been
>talking about.
>
>
>
>>>What makes you think that
>>>the hostility towards Malcolm was purely jealousy and envy
>>as
>>>if there were no other issues involved?
>>
>>When did I say there weren't other issues involved? But the
>>core of the hostility towards Malcolm was jealousy and fear
>>amongst his brethren in the Nation. The Nation had a lot of
>>crooked people. They were thieves. They were stealing money,
>>they enjoyed their little positions of power. And they all
>>were jockeying for the top job. Malcolm was nothing like
>that.
>>He was the heir apparent to Elijah Muhammad. They had to get
>>rid of him, because Malcolm did succeed, he would have
>gotten
>>rid of them and cleaned up the Nation for its own good.
>>
>
>>See,a lot of the NOI were frauds. It was a hustle for a lot
>>them, Elijah Muhammad included. They had a good thing going.
>>Money was coming in. Malcolm, in the name of righteousness,
>>was disrupting the hustle that existed. Those hustling
>crooks
>>were able to enjoy those fruits because Malcolm had built
>the
>>movement through his own personal labor in the name of
>Allah.
>>Malcolm's movement was built on righteousness. That is why
>in
>>the movie,in one of its most telling scenes, Malcolm throws
>it
>>back at Baines and says, "I'm telling you God's words not no
>>hustle...Brother Baines is a 2-bit hustler and one hand
>washes
>>the other". The divide was there. See, that wasn't
>>entertainment. That was a depiction of the reality that
>>existed within the Nation of Islam.
>>
>
>These are strong words and allegations that you are making in
>the above diatribe. I mean, you didn't declare that there
>were a few who were stealing and thieving; you just made it
>sound like the whole NOI was an organization filled with
>crooks. What are these allegations based upon? YOU MUST BACK
>UP THESE TYPES OF ALLEGATIONS WITH EVIDENCE!!
>

Again, refer to what cited from John H. Clarke and Benjamin Karim. Are they liars? Those sentiments were there back then and the events occured.

And Spike had the fictional character Baines, represent that sentiment. That isn't entertainment, brother. That is a depiction of reality.

>Bring some real facts to the table, not empty quotes from that
>silly movie.
>

Stop assuming, brother. "Silly movie"? Ah, I see. lol I guess you thought all I did was watch the movie. lol

>
>>> You've been watching
>>>this comfounded movie too much.
>>>
>>
>>Actually, I've done my research, brother. Its what Malcolm
>was
>>all about. He did not rely on one resource for information.
>If
>>he did he would have been crippled, mentally like most in
>the
>>Nation were and like a lot of them are today with Farrakhan
>as
>>the leader. And the Nation wouldn't have become the movement
>>it became wit Malcolm as its spokesman. He was exhaustive in
>>acquiring information. That is why his mind, power, and
>force
>>was untouchable. The only way to get rid of him was kill
>him.
>>You've been watching the confounded movie in your head too
>>much.
>>
>>
>
>Brother, you are a Malcolm worshipper. Malcolm was a GREAT
>man, but he had flaws and played a part in the atmosphere that
>led to his own assassination. If you recognize that, nothing
>that I say to you on this matter will make sense to you.
>

I'm not a worshipper. Idolatry and sonship are not great things. I admire Malcolm a great deal and he inspires me.

And Malcolm's flaw was his naivety while in the Nation. He was so loyal that he was blind to Elijah Muhammad and his ways. He probably would have stayed in the Nation had he not been forced out. Others around had said so. He was that devoted to Elijah. But being forced out was the best thing for Malcolm X and I think he came to realization of what the a lot of the NOI and Elijah had unforunately become: a fraud. And it hurt Malcolm a great deal. It happens to all of us. None of us are immuned.


And to say that Malcolm played a part in the atmosphere that led to his own assassination is a creepy statement, brother. I don't know what you mean by that. But Malcolm standing on the foundation of righteousness and Allah for his people and exposing the forces of the devil that were destroying his people (including the NOI and United States), is no justificaton or reason for him to be killed for it. NONE.


>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>This is a great movie to capture Malcolm and his life.
>>Its
>>>>>not
>>>>>>going to cover every minute detail. It encourages you to
>>>>>seek
>>>>>>more about Malcolm and learn more about him.
>>>>>>
>>>>>No doubt. But unfortunately, for the masses, more
>indepth
>>>>>research is not going to occur. So this movie, for all
>>>it's
>>>>>worth, is going to be their education on and impression
>of
>>>>MX.
>>>>> This is the sad reality.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Is that Spike's fault or the masses?
>>>
>>>The intellectual laziness of the masses is not Spikes fault
>>>and I never claimed that it was. I feel that if Spike is
>>>going to make a movie on a man like Malcolm, who means so
>>many
>>>things to so many people, he should be responsible and
>>>represent Malcolm's image properly and intelligently,
>>because
>>>for many, if they don't get that at this movie, they're not
>>>gonna get it at all, ever.
>>
>>Again, Spike represented Malcolm's image properly and
>>intelligently. Again, you are blaiming Spike for what others
>>don't do. That isn't Spike's fault. Spike did his part. And
>he
>>did a damn good job of it. The onus is on everybody else to
>do
>>their part, brother. You and myself included.
>>
>
>I'm not blaming Spike for what others don't do; I'm blaming
>Spike for what he didn't do.
>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>Spike can't win with the critics.
>>>>>
>>>>>When you take on a project like this that involves an
>>>ICONIC
>>>>>figure like MX, you'd better expect some criticism. I
>>>mean,
>>>>>it comes with the territory.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Really? No matter how great that movie is? I see. lol
>>>>
>>>
>>>Yes, criticism comes with the territory, especially when
>you
>>>do a theatrical reflection of Malcolm, so expect it.
>>>Honestly, it's one of those things where you just can't
>>please
>>>everybody.
>>
>>As we see with your posts. lol
>>
>
>You're critical you damn self and on top of that, much of your
>criticism appears to be unfounded.
>
>
>>>And "great" is relative and completely subjective.
>>> And even if a movie is considered "great" as a general
>>>concensus, that doesn't keep it from being a thing that can
>>be
>>>critiqued and criticized.
>>>
>>
>>Critizied and critiqued is one thing. Nitpicking because its
>>Spike Lee who directed the movie, is another.
>>
>>
>Man look, I'm a fan of Spike's work. I love that brother and
>what he has brought to celluloid for us as a people. I was
>just a lil' disappointed in this movie. It was good movie and
>he did fairly well considering how tall the task was, but I
>just felt he came up short (no put intended).
>
>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Thats what makes Malcolm X
>>>>>>the movie even more special. It can't be denied because
>>>its
>>>>>so
>>>>>>good. Sure, the critics will find flaws and nitpick. But
>>>>>deep
>>>>>>in their hearts they know its a masterpiece. And they
>>>can't
>>>>>>stand it. lol
>>>>>>
>>>>>It was a good piece of entertainment that was BASED ON
>the
>>>>>life and times and death of Malcolm X. No more, no less.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>When did Spike or the marketing department say otherwise.
>>It
>>>>says right on the DVD package as such.
>>>
>>>Agreed. Good entertainment is all the movie really was
>when
>>>it comes down to it.
>>
>>lol. Right, there was nothing factual in the movie. LMAO!!
>>
>
>Spike's goal IMO was to primarily entertain and not inform or
>educate.
>
>
>>>If given a choice between watching this movie
>>>or watching a documentary on Malcom, I will ALWAYS select
>>the
>>>documentary.
>>>
>>
>>Good for you. Because the documentary will cover every angle
>>of Malcolm's life. lol Thats why there are so many of them
>and
>>each one leaves out a lot of information that is important.
>>lol
>>
>>
>I don't care if a presentation covers every single facet of
>his life. I am just more into seeing and hearing Malcolm
>speak for himself instead of watching Denzel or anyone else
>"play" Malcolm for primarily entertainment purposes. But
>that's just me. You do you.
>

<--- we've got bush!

  

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Nettrice
Charter member
61747 posts
Thu Jun-08-06 11:22 AM

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67. "This part"
In response to Reply # 66


  

          

"But one of Malcolm's top aides, Leon 4X Ameer, went to the FBI,
about, I think it was ten days after Malcolm was killed, and
indicated that he felt that there were elements not only within the
Nation of Islam proper, but within the US government that were
behind Malcolm's assassination. He then was found dead, himself,
a few days later at the age of 32 in his apartment in Boston.
Initially, they said it was suicide, then they changed that to a
drug overdose, but the final disposition of the case was that he
died of natural causes, despite the fact that he was in good health
at the age of 32. It is worth noting that Ameer took his wife and
child and relocated them from Boston prior to his death, because he
felt that his life was in danger and he did not want his wife and
child to die if and when the assassins came for him. That is still
the official version of the death of Leon Ameer, namely, natural
causes at the age of 32 within ten days of (actually it was about
a week) having visited the FBI and voiced his suspicions about U.S.
governmental involvement in the assassination of Malcolm X."

I know a woman from the family who hid one of these men. I know that he was found dead, so perhaps it's the same person.

<--- Blame this lady for Nutty.

  

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jambone
Member since Aug 08th 2005
24803 posts
Thu Jun-08-06 11:50 AM

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68. "Did you see "Malcolm X" the documentary with James Earl Jones..."
In response to Reply # 67
Thu Jun-08-06 11:55 AM by jambone

  

          

>"But one of Malcolm's top aides, Leon 4X Ameer, went to the
>FBI,
>about, I think it was ten days after Malcolm was killed, and
>indicated that he felt that there were elements not only
>within the
>Nation of Islam proper, but within the US government that
>were
>behind Malcolm's assassination. He then was found dead,
>himself,
>a few days later at the age of 32 in his apartment in Boston.
>Initially, they said it was suicide, then they changed that to
>a
>drug overdose, but the final disposition of the case was that
>he
>died of natural causes, despite the fact that he was in good
>health
>at the age of 32. It is worth noting that Ameer took his wife
>and
>child and relocated them from Boston prior to his death,
>because he
>felt that his life was in danger and he did not want his wife
>and
>child to die if and when the assassins came for him. That is
>still
>the official version of the death of Leon Ameer, namely,
>natural
>causes at the age of 32 within ten days of (actually it was
>about
>a week) having visited the FBI and voiced his suspicions about
>U.S.
>governmental involvement in the assassination of Malcolm X."
>
>I know a woman from the family who hid one of these men. I
>know that he was found dead, so perhaps it's the same person.


...He was in the documentary and it shows footage of Malcolm and him at a podium talking about how he was beaten up by the NOI. He had this huge scar or welt on his face from the beating he took in Boston (this was before he was killed after Malcolm's assasination. Malcolm in the clip said that they were still after him. They interviewed Leon as well. If you want, I can post a clip of the what they said later this evening. So, maybe she may recognize his face.

The clip is from the movie "Malcolm X" (1972) that came as a bonus DVD with the Malcolm X special collections DVD that was released a year ago.

<--- we've got bush!

  

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Nettrice
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Thu Jun-08-06 01:04 PM

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69. "Nope didn't see it"
In response to Reply # 68


  

          

>...He was in the documentary and it shows footage of Malcolm
>and him at a podium talking about how he was beaten up by the
>NOI. He had this huge scar or welt on his face from the
>beating he took in Boston (this was before he was killed
>after Malcolm's assasination. Malcolm in the clip said that
>they were still after him. They interviewed Leon as well. If
>you want, I can post a clip of the what they said later this
>evening. So, maybe she may recognize his face.
>
>The clip is from the movie "Malcolm X" (1972) that came as a
>bonus DVD with the Malcolm X special collections DVD that was
>released a year ago.

I'll look for it tho.

<--- Blame this lady for Nutty.

  

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jambone
Member since Aug 08th 2005
24803 posts
Thu Jun-08-06 03:04 PM

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70. "I'll post a clip of it later this evening."
In response to Reply # 69


  

          

<--- we've got bush!

  

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Nettrice
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61747 posts
Thu Jun-08-06 10:08 PM

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72. "Cool"
In response to Reply # 70


  

          

:D

<--- Blame this lady for Nutty.

  

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jambone
Member since Aug 08th 2005
24803 posts
Thu Jun-08-06 10:29 PM

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73. "Pefect Timing, my friend..."
In response to Reply # 72
Thu Jun-08-06 10:30 PM by jambone

  

          

>
>


Here it is. If you run into problems let me know. Its an mpeg file. If you can't play that I can make it a .wma file or whatever file you want, probably. Its a 7 minute clip.

The part with Leon comes in at about 37 seconds. Feel free to watch the entire clip, its some interesting stuff Malcolm speaks about. You may have heard it already, though.

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=NEFFEU8O

Again, this 7 minute clip comes from the movie/documentary called "Malcolm X" that was made in 1972 narrate in some parts by James Earl Jones. The rest is a bunch of Malcolm speeches and timeline with his life. Its about an hour and a half in its entirety.

<--- we've got bush!

  

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Nettrice
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Thu Jun-08-06 11:43 PM

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74. "Thanks so much!"
In response to Reply # 73


  

          

>Here it is. If you run into problems let me know. Its an mpeg
>file. If you can't play that I can make it a .wma file or
>whatever file you want, probably. Its a 7 minute clip.

I had no problems downloading it and now I am going to put it on my iPod. Maybe even my blog.

>Again, this 7 minute clip comes from the movie/documentary
>called "Malcolm X" that was made in 1972 narrate in some parts
>by James Earl Jones. The rest is a bunch of Malcolm speeches
>and timeline with his life. Its about an hour and a half in
>its entirety.

Very good.

<--- Blame this lady for Nutty.

  

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CaptainRook
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4936 posts
Sun Jun-11-06 11:47 AM

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78. "No need for marathons..."
In response to Reply # 66


  

          

I'm on my last leg in responding to this.

It appears that you have been exposed too much of the same information that I have been exposed to, it's just that you have chosen to believe one thing as far as how things have gone down and I have chosen to believe something else.

I will give you credit that your basis of belief is founded.

>
>Brother, I don't need to check that out. Thank you and I
>appreciate your offering of giving me information, but I'm
>already aware of that information. I'm aware of J. Edgar
>Hoover and his obsession and fear and torture of blacks in his
>high placed position. I'm aware of the powers that had been
>and be and what they have done to destroy black people. But
>I'm also aware of what black people themselves have also done
>to black people.
>
>

So in understanding how Hoover and US intelligence in general has worked overtime to kill anybody or any movement that was working to advance Black ppl., you chose to believe that what went down in the NOI with MX's assassination was all on the NOI? To what extent do you believe the NOI was responsible for his death.

I believe that the NOI as well as MX, was guilty of creating an atmosphere where outsiders (i.e., FBI agents) can step in and assassinate MX and make it look like it was a type of civil war, with responsibility or blame never being laid at the hands of this outside force.

I also believe that the men who were involved in the assassination MX (most of whom never stood for trial) may've been in the NOI but they were not followers of the NOI.

It's funny how cats can stand back and they can see how forces were actively working against the UNIA movement, Dr. ML King, individual Black Panthers and the Black Panther party Movement in general, but when it comes to the destruction of MX, many don't see (or don't want to see) the active involvement of these same external forces; they want to say "naw, them niggas did it to themselves". That's always peculiar to me.



>>The movie planted a seed that has yet to bear any fruit.
>>Since that movie came out, we've seen Hip Hop music go from
>a
>>socially/politically/culturally conscious movement, in some
>>respects, to an all time low of decadence.
>
>That had nothing to do with the Movie. That was what was going
>on at that time, brother. That was the climate. You released
>the same movie Malcolm X 5 years later, and it would have done
>worse at the box office. It would have had less impact,
>because the climate was different. The movie's financial
>success and popularity during the time of its release was
>because of the climate and what the people wanted. In fact, it
>was the tail-end of the "socially/politically/culturally
>conscious movement" you referred to. Hardcore rap was pushing
>to the forefront. The Chronic was released that year and took
>off and a new era was born in hip-hop. But that had nothing
>to do with the Movie.
>

You missed my point here. You claim this movie planted a seed. I'm asking where do we see the fruits of this seed that was supposedly planted. Given the socially/politically/culturally conscious movement in the Hip Hop at the time, I would have to say that this "seed" that you claim was planted by the movie would've been planted into fertile soil (i.e., minds). I mean, how do we see this movie affecting the consciousness of our people manifesting.

Before this movie, I saw many of our people (mostly, young) creating lyrically positive music for us as a people/community/nation. After this movie, we had seemingly a black out on positive lyrics in Hip Hop. More and more, lyrics about drinking, smoking herb, calling Blackwomen bitches and hoes, etc. became more and more prevalent. That's not to say none of this existed before the movie, because it did. But after the movie, the balance between consciousness and ignorance appeared to shift more towards the ignorance, not the positive, enlightend side of the force.

You claim that the movie "planted a seed" I'm just asking where did we see this seed manifest anything reflecting movement in a positive direction? What can you point to in our community as evidence that the movie or the life of MX had an effect on their life? I don't see it. I don't think this movie planted any real seeds or whatever seeds it planted, didn't return a harvest of consciousness.

I believe the movie planted no seeds and had no real effect on anything.

>> I'm not saying
>>that this reality is Spikes fault or is the fault of the
>>movie, but can you name one activists who claims that this
>>movie changed their life?
>>
>
>Why does it have to be an activist who claims it changed their
>life? Why did this movie or any movie have to change someone's
>life. I didn't know that was a requirement of Spike. I know of
>several people who were deeply affected by the movie and
>changed for the better. Some actually joined the NOI. Can you
>imagine that? They aren't necessarily lip-professing activists
>in the national spotlight who pose has a "freedom fighter".
>They are actually people in the communtiy who go unnoticed.
>Young people were affected by this and for some it caused them
>to want to learn more about Malcolm X and actually go read his
>autobiography and do more research about the man.
>

That's real nice, maybe this "seed" that you believe was planted is a slow germinating seed and we will see it bear fruit over the next 5 - 10 years, maybe. I know many who were curious about MX and began researching his life based on much of the music that was coming from various Hip Hop artists around that time. And honestly, I know more ppl. who were curious about MX and picked up the book, based on the build up to the movie as opposed to viewing the movie itself.


>In fact if you think about it, it brought his name back to
>life. Martin Luther King was taught in grade schools. Malcolm
>X wasn't.
>

This is very true. I think to an extent the movie hurt us on this front, too, because MX has been co-opted by the powers that be. They made him out to be a man, who was for everybody.

MALCOLM X BELONGS TO US; he was our hero/leader/example of manhood.

>
>>
>>>
>>>Do you know the history of the NOI and its form of
>>>"sacrifices" back in the day.
>>
>>Well, history according to who? There is always two sides
>to
>>every story. If you were to ask me if I knew the history of
>>the Native Americans that inhabitted this land first and I
>>said no, I would get a very different picture painted for
>me,
>>depending on who's doing the story telling.
>>
>
>
>Well, believe what you want to believe brother, but here you
>go:
>
>http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/4222/noi4.html
>
>"For a fee of ten dollars, Ford gave Islamic sounding names to
>cult members, Elijah and his family going through a series of
>name changes, finally settling on Muhammad. Among Ford's
>teachings, was a call for followers to sacrifice whites in
>order for the person 'to return to his home in Mecca.'
>Followers were also encouraged to believe in human sacrifice,
>'of himself or his loved ones if Allah requires it.' In
>November of 1932, Robert Karriem Harris, one of the earliest
>members of 'the Nation Cult of Islam', was convicted of murder
>in Detroit in the sacrificial slaying of Nation follower,
>James J. Smith, amidst reports of other slayings. This event,
>referred to in Detroit as the infamous 'Voodoo Murders,' led
>to the confinement of Elijah Karriem (who at the time used the
>alias, Ghulam Bogans) to a mental ward, and the banisof his
>teacher, Wallace Dodd Ford to Chicago."
>
>

Okay, if you believe that this human sacrifice and killing has been systemically sanctioned by and within the NOI, how many do you believe MX was apart of?

MX was in the NOI for over 12 years, so do you believe that if this was a common practice of the NOI and with MX's rank and length of service in the NOI, that if this type of activity was occurring, that he wasn't aware of it or maybe even an active participant?

>
>>Do you know they were shooting
>>>and killing their members around the time they were trying
>>to
>>>hunt down Malcolm X? And they killed a lot more after
>>>Malcolm's death.
>>>
>>
>>Source please. A link, a book, a magazine article,
>>something.
>>
>
>here is some more info from that same link:
>http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/4222/noi4.html
>
>"In 1964, Aubrey Barnett, a former Boston minister under Louis
>X Farrakhan, quit the group after being fed up with the
>deceptions. Barnett was soon after viciously assaulted on a
>Boston street by 13 of Elijah's men. On November 5, 1964,
>ex-member Kenneth Morton, died from internal injuries suffered
>when he was beaten by four members of 'the Nation.' During the
>same year, Malcolm X, former national spokesman for Elijah
>Muhammad, renounced Elijah's organization, made Hajj and
>became a Muslim, and officially changed his name to Al-Hajj
>Malik Shabazz; openly declaring Elijah Muhammad to be a false
>prophet, thief and fornicator. This led to Elijah printing a
>series of articles critical of Malik Shabazz in issues of
>Muhammad Speaks, referring to Malik Shabazz as a 'hypocrite,'
>including a call for Malik Shabazz' death written by Louis X
>Farrakhan.
>
>On January 6, 1965, ex-member Benjamin Brown, who left 'the
>Nation' to establish a masjid, was shot in front of his
>masjid. This was followed by a series of unsuccessful attempts
>on Malik Shabazz' life by Nation members. On February 21,
>1965, Malik Shabazz was assassinated by Nation members in New
>York City. This was immediately followed by the brutal beating
>in Boston of Leon 4X Ameer, a former bodyguard for Malik
>Shabazz. Left in a coma for weeks as a result of the beating,
>Ameer emerged from the hospital in a vegetative state with
>permanent brain damage. He died shortly thereafter.
>
>In 1971, twenty-five Nation members walked out of Temple no. 2
>in Chicago, with the complaint that not enough money collected
>from members was reaching poor blacks. This led to the murder
>of two of the dissidents. In 1972, author Hakeem A. Jamal, a
>friend of Malik Shabazz and like him, an outspoken critic of
>Elijah Muhammad, was gunned down by Nation members. On January
>18, 1973 in Washington DC, the most gruesome of murders took
>place when several assassins were dispatched from Elijah
>Muhammad's Philadelphia branch temple to kill ex-follower
>Hamaas Abdul Khaalis, who had written dozens of letters to
>Elijah's temples nationwide, calling Elijah a 'lying deceiver
>who was stealing his followers' money and dooming them to
>Hell'. The assassins entered Hamaas' home, finding seven
>members of his family, all women and children. The assassins
>beat and shot the women and children numerous times,
>ransacking the house, then drowning two infants in a sink and
>tub. Hamaas' daughter Amina, who survived despite being shot
>six times in the head at close range, recalled that one of the
>killers asked her, "Why did your father write those letters?"
>His last words to her were, "Don't mess with Elijah." The
>killers fled, but after a nationwide manhunt, all were
>eventually captured and convicted.
>"
>

Okay, this is my position on this type of information: I don't dismiss it outright, but I view it with an extremely skeptical eye. I'm not saying the NOI didn't practice any strong-arm type of disciplinary tactics that may've included intimidation, force, and violence, but at the same time, when I hear or read about some of the claims that some make in terms of the use of violence, killings and what not in the Nation, I wonder to what extent, it involved elements of outside forces to help maintain confusion among members of the organizations.

The FBI would often use conflicts that existed between street gangs and other organizations and the Black Panthers, to spark and start
shoot outs and other types of violent confrontations.

So this type of stuff, I don't necessarily disbelieve outright, but I do view it skeptically.

>Now in terms of Leon 4X Ameer, he was in the movie/documentary
>"Malcolm X" released in 1972 I believe, it was narrated by
>James Earl Jones. Its basically a collection of speeches of
>Malcolm and interviews. Its included as a bonus DVD in the
>release of Malcolm X the movie. Anyway, Leon was beaten
>severely by the NOI weeks before Malcolm X's death. Malcolm
>spoke at the podium and brought brother Leon to the podium.
>And Malcolm spoke how the NOI beat him, trying to get to
>Malcolm. Leon also spoke about the incident in the movie.
>
>Now Leon is later killed after Malcolm's assasination. And
>this could be what you are talking about in terms of the FBI's
>involvement here is link you may find interesting (its 4
>parts, but very interesting):
>
>http://www.theconspiracy.us/9408/0029.html

Thanks for the link. Looks some interesting reading. I'll have to print this off and save it.
>
>>
>>>>It is
>>>>well known that the organization had more than its fair
>>>share
>>>>of zealots who were unhappy with Malcolm,
>>>
>>>Elijah Muhammad included.
>>>
>>
>>What is your basis for the above allegation?
>>
>
>Watch "Make it plain" again, brother. Listen to what Wilfred
>(Malcolm's oldest brother) says about getting word that Elijah
>and the family were unhappy that Malcolm was getting all the
>press and basically eclipsing Elijah in stature. Or read up on
>how the secretaries of Elijah said that Elijah feared Malcolm
>would leave and betray him. Or watch the "Brother Malcolm" dvd
>documentary. Where Charles 37x said that at a meeting with the
>NOI members in philadelphia with Elijah and Malcolm there.
>Elijah referred to Malcolm as the brother whom you will have
>to kill. Charles 37x couldn't even finish the words because he
>was all choked up when he said it. It was too paintful for
>him. These aren't things I'm pulling from out of my head,
>brother. This is documented information.
>

Interesting. The "Make it Plain" documentary, I've seen, but I haven't seen the "Brother Malcolm" documentary. My position on Elijah being jealous is this. Malcolm was a student of Elijah and Malcolm always let this be known, so any shine Malcolm gets, indirectly reflected the greatness of Elijah and ultimately provied press and publicity for the NOI. So it just seems silly to me for him to be jealous; it makes no sense to me.


>>
>>
>>On a side note: It is common belief/opinion/mode of thought
>>among many that Malcolm was brilliant and Elijah was just
>some
>>bumbling idiot, incapable of void real intellect. This is
>>thinking is evil and just plain wrong. While Malcolm was
>very
>>much a self-taught man, much of what he learned and what we
>>came to love as Malcolm X, was the result of Elijah's work,
>>teaching/mentoring, leading, and influencing Malcolm.
>Please
>>check your Elijah hate barometer; it's off da charts.
>>
>
>Not necessarily true, my brother. Now, if you read Malcolm's
>autobiography, Malcolm started taking correspondence classes
>in English, etc. to start better himself before he came across
>the Nation from his brothers Philbert and Reginald. Malcom was
>also inspired by a brother named "Bimbi" as well. Again,
>before he came across the teachings of Elijah Muhammad.
>

>Now, having said that. The great man you referred to,John H.
>Clarke, spoke of in the "Brother Malcolm" documentary, how
>Malcom had a "non-muslim" cabinet. He said Malcolm was
>"devastatingly effective" because of his avid pursuit of
>information. He said Malcolm believed and knew that the
>muslims did not have a lot information and knowledge that was
>out there. He said Malcolm utilized him, John H. Clarke, in
>terms of information on history. Malcolm had different
>branches of his non-muslim cabinet from which he learned,
>sociology, etc. John H. Clarke referred to himself as
>Malcolm's "history department" of this cabinet.
>
>So yes, Elijah Muhammad played some part in Malcolm's
>development, but the Malcolm also played his part in his
>development as well as others outside of the Nation of Islam.
>In fact, its one of the main reasons they wanted to get rid of
>Malcolm while he was in the Nation. Malcolm was leaning more
>and more into nationalistic talk instead of religous talk.
>Watch the "Make it plain" dvd again, brother. Listen to what
>Philber (malcolm's brother) breaks down how the differences in
>ideology between Malcolm's nationalistic stance vs. NOI's
>spiritual/religious stance. NOI, to my understanding, at that
>time wanted nothing to do with the political process and
>protests of the civil rights movement.
>
>

Above I state: "While Malcolm was very much a self-taught man..." Malcolm was an intelligent man, with an insatiable appetite for knowledge. The man's mind was literally a sponge. He learned much from all that was around him, be it people, events, occurrences, or things. He never missed an opportunity to learn. So I acknowledge that Elijah didn't have a monopoloy on Malcolm's knowledge or learning.

I don't discard the fact that MX had various other sources of information. Much of Malcolm's learning acquired outside of the NOI's teaching, he used to validate and confirm the NOI's teaching, and he acknowledged this in his autobiography also. This was a wise move on MX's part.

But it seems to me that many are always trying to discount or minimize Elijah's contribution to Black ppl in America (and throughout the world). One of the main methods of doing this, is to minimize his role in Malcolm's development.


>>Do some research? Brother, there are so many books,
>articles,
>>documentaries, etc. that have been done on Malcolm, Elijah
>>Muhammad and the NOI that I don't know where to begin to
>gain
>>the understanding and perspective that you have formed for
>>yourself. YOU NEED TO REFERENCE THESE THINGS TO MAKE YOUR
>>CASE PROPERLY!!!!!
>>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>Captain Joseph X of temple #7 of the NOI admitted to
>bombing
>>>the house before his died in the early 90's.
>>
>>Source please.
>>
>
>Watch the Brother Malcolm DVD documentary. They report the
>fact that Joeseph X admitted to bombing the house. They also
>report how John Ali was an FBI informant. John Ali was a
>secretary in the NOI. One of the more powerful leaders in the
>NOI. In fact, he met with Talmage Hayer the night before the
>assasination of Malcolm X.
>>

This is suspect to me. It's hard for me to believe that Yusef Ali, personally, bombed MX's house. He was the Captain of Mosque # 7 in New York. Why would he have to get his hands dirty like that? Why wouldn't he send a lieutenant or a rank and file to do it, if he wanted it done? This claim makes no sense.


>>And in the video
>>>"Make it Plain" Joesph X tried to avoid the issue when they
>>>asked him about who bombed Malcolm's house. He said he
>>didn't
>>>know, but had guilt written all over his face in that
>>>documentary. But Joseph admitted to bombing the house.
>>>
>>
>>This is a matter of complete subjective interpretation. I
>saw
>>this video presentation and I didn't see guilt on Yusef
>Shah's
>>(f/k/a Joseph Ali) face; I saw contempt, I saw anger, I saw
>>quite outrage; but I didn't see jealousy. As a matter of
>>fact, he had the attitude that said to me, "If I did it, I'd
>>tell ya to ya damn face, 'Yeah, I did it so what about,
>>motherfucker?'"
>>
>
>^^^This is subjective interpretation as well. Joseph's X whoe
>demeanor changed when asked that question. His body language
>and everything. He looked suspicsous and guilty to me. We
>will agree to disagree on that one.

Interpretation is subjective on both ends. Cool: Agree to disagree on this on for sure.

>

>>>Malcolm's murder was the result of the NOI with assistance
>>>from those outside forces. He wasn't the first NOI member
>to
>>>be f*cked up and gunned down.
>>
>>Source please.
>>
>
>Again, brother. Refer to the links I posted above. Also check
>out the book "Prophet of Rage" by Aurthur Magida. It documents
>about some of the killings referred to earlier in my post. And
>it talks about a few more. It also talks about the severe
>beatings within the Nation amongst its members upon one
>antoher. They even cited an incident where Louis Farrakhan's
>brother-in-law was severely beaten in the basement of Louis's
>own temple in Boston by his captain. They told him to stop
>crying while getting his beating. Crying only disrespects
>Minister Louis.
>

As I stated above, I'm certain the NOI has its own tactics for disciplining its members, but at the same time I am skeptical of sources that I read or hear that make claims of senseless violence or force being committed by a Black organizaiton. The source may or may not be authentic and the violence being reported may or may not've occurred. If said violent events did occurr, were they internal generated actions, or was it an action generated by some outside forces (i.e., agents and spies) who were posing as members to create confusion and anarchy within the organizaition? That's how I view these things.


>>>Do some research.
>>
>>What and where do you want me to research?
>>
>>Malcolm's
>>>murder was the result of fear,jealousy, and the quest for
>>>power within the NOI with help from the FBI, CIA, NYPD, and
>>>United States.
>>
>>What is the basis of the above statement? Is it merely your
>>opinion, is it your opinion based on some citable fact
>>evidence, is it a published fact?
>>
>>If facts are involed please cite a source.
>>
>
>
>Again, check out what John H. Clarke says in the "Brother
>Malcolm" documentary and the "Make it plain" documentary. He
>talks about how people in the Nation enjoyed their petty
>positions and how they were crooks. And if Malcolm would
>become the successor to Elijah he would weed out the crooks
>within the Nation. So, according to John H. Clarke, "the idea
>was to get rid of him (Malcolm) before the passing of the old
>man (Elijah Muhammad)". They wanted the top job, but Malcolm
>was in the way. He said they created an atmosphere within the
>Nation of Islam, Farrahkan included, to get rid of Malcolm.
>

Given the nature and atmosphere of the United States, I am bound to acknowledge, that there had to be some thieves in the NOI and others who were exploiting their positions within the NOI. How can it not be that way in the misdst of the US, the expolitative capital of the world? I mean this type activity occurrs everywhere else in the US: it occurs in the US Corporations, in the US govt., it occurs in so-called not-for-profit organizaitons, it occurs throughout the various churches within the various nominations among the clergy. So why would anyone expect the NOI to be completely immune to this element of exploitation and greed.

But when this level of exploitation is reported from within the NOI, it is #1) reported as if its an occurrence in a vaccuum (i.e., this (i.e., the NOI) is the only place in the U.S. that this was happenin') and #2)it's always at the expense of the good that the NOI was doing for Black ppl. Unlike all the other organizations that were expoiting, stealing, etc., the NOI was building businesses and institutions that benefited Black people. That is the main difference.

US Corporations don't build to benefit Black ppl.; the US govt. does not build for the benefit of Black ppl.; Black Clergy doesn't build for the benefit of Black ppl. For the most part, Black clergy only builds bigger churches. No schools, no grocery stores, no convenience stores, no restaurants, no gas stations, just bigger churches. The NOI did more than just build more buildings for worship. This tends to get lost in the discussion when folks want to talk about how there were people within the NOI, supposedly robbing the house blind.

>Benjamin Karim, a close associate of Malcolm who was in the
>Nation and left when they were treating Malcolm the way they
>were talks about this in the "Brother Malcolm" documentary. He
>said the NOI had shifted its whole stance. They were
>instructed to ridicule and slander Malcolm in public. Benjamin
>said that wasn't what they were taugh initially in Islam. He
>said they had flipped the script. He said it wasn't right. And
>he said left the NOI, as well as others, because of it.
>

Look, I don't believe the NOI was completely blameless in this whole thing. That is not my argument. There are several things that I wish the NOI had not done or at least, handled differently. The treatment towards Malcolm is something that I do have a problem with, I can't blame anyone else who does also.

Sidenote: I thought that the way Khallid was treated by the modern day NOI, was similarly, unfair (putting it lightly) and it left a very, very bad taste in my mouth.


>Again, I'm not talking off the top of my head. If you study
>and do research you can form your own conclusions. AND, when
>you hear it from those who were actually there,well I don't
>know what else to say brother. Believe what you want to
>believe.
>

I have come to my own conclusion. And I am always eager to hear from those who were actually there. At the same time, their perspective, is not always the be-all and end-all to my opinion. I am fully aware that ppl. who were there were likely confused about some of the events that were occurring around them. And that's not their own individual fault. There were people around them, who's (real) job was to create confusion and keep it stirring among the members of the organization.


>
>>
>>
>>The gestation and core root of this problem was
>>>birthed in the NOI. The outside forces didn't have much
>work
>>>to do. It was going to be done with or without them.
>>
>>You have got to be kidding. To quote our beloved elder and
>>now Most Honored Ancestor, John H. Clarke, in his
>>autobiographical documentary "A Long and Mighty Walk", he
>>stated, in sum that he believed that Farrakhan's rheteric
>>contributed to the atmosphere that enabled Malcolm to be
>>assassinated. He also stated that he believed that
>Malcolm's
>>death was bigger than some local, domestic squabble with the
>>NOI.
>
>Yes, I know this. I've never denied this. You should really
>check out the "Brother Malcolm DVD". You would really like it,
>I think. It harps on mostly the FBI, CIA, and NYPD's
>involvement in getting rid of Malcolm. John H. Clarke is in
>there as well. It talks about things that you find is a
>problem with the movie Malcolm X.
>
>But again, the core root of the problem existed within the
>Nation of Islam. And it made the outside forces job a lot
>easier to get rid of Malcolm with the NOI wanting to kill him.
>
>

I think we agree here. I think the only difference we may have is to what extent the NOI was responsible vs US Intelligence forces.



>>It's fine that he inclued the fact that Malcolm was a street
>>guy in the movie, but I just think that he should've given
>at
>>least equal time to the Intelligence Community's role in
>>assassinating Malcolm, not just spying on him or keeping
>tabs
>>on him, but moving to eliminate him.
>>
>
>But the movie was about the life of Malcolm X right based on a
>lot of his own account, right? Not the Intelligence Community
>and their actions, right?
>

I thought the movie was about the Life and TIMES of MX. In that, you can include, the manner in which MX assassination truthfully went down.

>
>>
>>>>
>>>>>>Instead, Spike leaves the viewer with the impression of
>>>>this
>>>>>>being just simply another case of Black on Black
>>violence.
>>>
>>>>>>And MX's murder was much bigger than that.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Yes it was. But it doesn't ingnore the fact that his own
>>>>>brothers wanted him canceled for no reason but their own
>>>>>jealousy of his power.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Some may've wanted him dead, I'll give you that; but that
>>>>doesn't mean that they killed him.
>>>
>>>lol. I mean, nobody from the NOI pulled the trigger.
>>>
>>Actually, only one out of the 5 that were involved is
>actually
>>known to have been in the NOI. The rest were most likely
>FBI
>>agents or recruits.
>>
>
>Really, Check out the "Brother Malcolm" documentary. Baba Zak
>Kondo is in there describing the 4 other men Talmage
>described. He says otherwise in the DVD. According to him,
>they were all in the Nation of Islam, Mosque 25. Now he did
>say, that it seemed one of the guys, the oldest guy of the
>group, appeaered to be taking orders from some higher ups
>(most likely the intelligence community you are referring
>to).
>
>Also, the documentary talks about John Ali being an informant
>and meeting Talmage Hayer in New York, the night before the
>assisination.
>

This "Brother Malcom" documentary sounds like some interesting stuff. I'll have to check it out. Maybe Spike should have checked it out, before filming the "X" film.


>>>See,a lot of the NOI were frauds. It was a hustle for a lot
>>>them, Elijah Muhammad included. They had a good thing
>going.
>>>Money was coming in. Malcolm, in the name of righteousness,
>>>was disrupting the hustle that existed. Those hustling
>>crooks
>>>were able to enjoy those fruits because Malcolm had built
>>the
>>>movement through his own personal labor in the name of
>>Allah.
>>>Malcolm's movement was built on righteousness. That is why
>>in
>>>the movie,in one of its most telling scenes, Malcolm throws
>>it
>>>back at Baines and says, "I'm telling you God's words not
>no
>>>hustle...Brother Baines is a 2-bit hustler and one hand
>>washes
>>>the other". The divide was there. See, that wasn't
>>>entertainment. That was a depiction of the reality that
>>>existed within the Nation of Islam.
>>>
>>
>>These are strong words and allegations that you are making
>in
>>the above diatribe. I mean, you didn't declare that there
>>were a few who were stealing and thieving; you just made it
>>sound like the whole NOI was an organization filled with
>>crooks. What are these allegations based upon? YOU MUST
>BACK
>>UP THESE TYPES OF ALLEGATIONS WITH EVIDENCE!!
>>
>
>Again, refer to what cited from John H. Clarke and Benjamin
>Karim. Are they liars? Those sentiments were there back then
>and the events occured.
>

I am more than sure that there was exploitation occurring from within the NOI, but to the exent that some like to argue that exploitation was rampant is where I have a problem. The NOI managed to build for and contribute more to the benefit of Black ppl than many other organizations out there that are exploiting, stealing and fleecing.

DON'T DENY THE NOI ITS JUST DUE!!!


>And Spike had the fictional character Baines, represent that
>sentiment. That isn't entertainment, brother. That is a
>depiction of reality.
>

Yeah, agreed, Spike did include a fair share of fiction in the movie.


>>Bring some real facts to the table, not empty quotes from
>that
>>silly movie.
>>
>
>Stop assuming, brother. "Silly movie"? Ah, I see. lol I guess
>you thought all I did was watch the movie. lol
>

Just watching the movie may not have been all you did, but that's all many did. Bringing up quotes from the movie don't impress me.


>>
>>Brother, you are a Malcolm worshipper. Malcolm was a GREAT
>>man, but he had flaws and played a part in the atmosphere
>that
>>led to his own assassination. If you recognize that,
>nothing
>>that I say to you on this matter will make sense to you.
>>
>
>I'm not a worshipper. Idolatry and sonship are not great
>things. I admire Malcolm a great deal and he inspires me.
>
>And Malcolm's flaw was his naivety while in the Nation. He was
>so loyal that he was blind to Elijah Muhammad and his ways. He
>probably would have stayed in the Nation had he not been
>forced out. Others around had said so. He was that devoted to
>Elijah. But being forced out was the best thing for Malcolm X
>and I think he came to realization of what the a lot of the
>NOI and Elijah had unforunately become: a fraud. And it hurt
>Malcolm a great deal. It happens to all of us. None of us are
>immuned.
>
Elijah a fraud?? How so? This is the thing that irriatates and pisses me off at times. Malcolm's a genuis but Elijah a nit-wit; Muhammad Ali was brilliant and brave but Elijah was a bumbling idiot and a coward; Na'im Akbar is wise but Elijah was a fool. All of the businesses and institutions that the NOI had established under Elijah's leadership, that served and benefitted Black people, were a fraud also, I guess. This type of logic, thinking and reasoning, is evil and downright wrong!!!

>
>And to say that Malcolm played a part in the atmosphere that
>led to his own assassination is a creepy statement, brother. I
>don't know what you mean by that. But Malcolm standing on the
>foundation of righteousness and Allah for his people and
>exposing the forces of the devil that were destroying his
>people (including the NOI and United States), is no
>justificaton or reason for him to be killed for it. NONE.
>

By Malcolm's bickering and verbally putting the NOI and Elijah Muhammad on blast, he literally set up the environment for his own assassination. That was bad enough, but to make it worse, MX went on Mike Wallace's news program and was just a doggin' Elijah Muhammad. Now to be upset with your Brother is one thing, to harbor negative feelings toward your teacher/mentor is not good, but it can and does occur from time to time in human relations. But to go to the common enemy of yourself and your brother/teacher/mentor to put your brother/teacher/mentor's personal business out in the street is blasphemous and outright wrong.

I believe that when MX did this, this is what created much of the anger and traitor and hyporcrite talk amongst the rank and file in the NOI.

<<<<"Nothings more attractive than a heavy praying woman" © Andre 3000

  

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jambone
Member since Aug 08th 2005
24803 posts
Sun Jun-11-06 03:40 PM

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80. "No marathon. More like the Tour De France. lol"
In response to Reply # 78


  

          

>I'm on my last leg in responding to this.
>

Why? This is fun. lol.

>It appears that you have been exposed too much of the same
>information that I have been exposed to, it's just that you
>have chosen to believe one thing as far as how things have
>gone down and I have chosen to believe something else.
>

I don't know. I don't think its a simple as that.

>I will give you credit that your basis of belief is founded.
>

Much respect to you. I felt like a lawyer replying to you. lol But its all good, man. And I think discussion like these are great. I've learned and I learn a lot from discussions like this. Thats the beauty of a message board.

>>
>>Brother, I don't need to check that out. Thank you and I
>>appreciate your offering of giving me information, but I'm
>>already aware of that information. I'm aware of J. Edgar
>>Hoover and his obsession and fear and torture of blacks in
>his
>>high placed position. I'm aware of the powers that had been
>>and be and what they have done to destroy black people. But
>>I'm also aware of what black people themselves have also
>done
>>to black people.
>>
>>
>
>So in understanding how Hoover and US intelligence in general
>has worked overtime to kill anybody or any movement that was
>working to advance Black ppl., you chose to believe that what
>went down in the NOI with MX's assassination was all on the
>NOI? To what extent do you believe the NOI was responsible
>for his death.
>

Well, I think a great deal. I think Hoover,FBI, NYPD, and the CIA etc. were smiling like kids in a candy store when they saw the rift that was occuring in the Nation and the beef they had with Malcolm.

>I believe that the NOI as well as MX, was guilty of creating
>an atmosphere where outsiders (i.e., FBI agents) can step in
>and assassinate MX and make it look like it was a type of
>civil war, with responsibility or blame never being laid at
>the hands of this outside force.
>

So was Jesus guilty, brother. He spoke out. Was Martin Luther King, guitly. He spoke out. Was Ghandi guilty? He spoke out. The only Malcolm was guilty of was not only telling the truth, but being a living embodiment of the truth. That is why the NOI, FBI, CIA, NYPD, and international community who were weak were afraid of him.

>I also believe that the men who were involved in the
>assassination MX (most of whom never stood for trial) may've
>been in the NOI but they were not followers of the NOI.
>

I agree with this to some degree. I believe it was a mixture. Some who were followers and some who weren't.

>It's funny how cats can stand back and they can see how forces
>were actively working against the UNIA movement, Dr. ML King,
>individual Black Panthers and the Black Panther party Movement
>in general, but when it comes to the destruction of MX, many
>don't see (or don't want to see) the active involvement of
>these same external forces; they want to say "naw, them niggas
>did it to themselves". That's always peculiar to me.
>

Its also funny how cats want to absolve the Nation of Islam of any wrong doing and use the overused psychological propaganda technique of distrust of the system and the white man. Its unfortunate our people's pain and suffering are often manipulated by this same strategy as they were with the similar tactics used by the slave-master. Both methods keep chains on the slave, especially of the slaves' mind. In fact, its even worse, when your own people want to and try to keep you in bondage. You know why the slave-master does it. But why would your own kind? That's always peculiar to me.

>
>
>>>The movie planted a seed that has yet to bear any fruit.
>>>Since that movie came out, we've seen Hip Hop music go from
>>a
>>>socially/politically/culturally conscious movement, in some
>>>respects, to an all time low of decadence.
>>
>>That had nothing to do with the Movie. That was what was
>going
>>on at that time, brother. That was the climate. You released
>>the same movie Malcolm X 5 years later, and it would have
>done
>>worse at the box office. It would have had less impact,
>>because the climate was different. The movie's financial
>>success and popularity during the time of its release was
>>because of the climate and what the people wanted. In fact,
>it
>>was the tail-end of the "socially/politically/culturally
>>conscious movement" you referred to. Hardcore rap was
>pushing
>>to the forefront. The Chronic was released that year and
>took
>>off and a new era was born in hip-hop. But that had nothing
>>to do with the Movie.
>>
>
>You missed my point here. You claim this movie planted a
>seed. I'm asking where do we see the fruits of this seed that
>was supposedly planted.

Brother, I was referring to one's own quest for knowledge. Like I said, I know of some who were affected by the movie. I wasn't talking about revolution for each person who ever saw it. I don't know of movies that start full-scale revolutions. Do you know of any?

>Given the
>socially/politically/culturally conscious movement in the Hip
>Hop at the time, I would have to say that this "seed" that you
>claim was planted by the movie would've been planted into
>fertile soil (i.e., minds). I mean, how do we see this movie
>affecting the consciousness of our people manifesting.
>

Again, you are missing the point. This movie's success at the box-office was a by-product the climate at that time. The climate did not equal hip-hop. Hip-hop was a subset of that climate. There were a lot of people who weren't into hip-hop who wanted to see a movie of this sort and magnitude. Again, that was the climate all together. The movie's success at the box-office with regards to hip-hop was a consequence of hip-hop's pro-black movement, not an antecedent. The pro-black movement in hip-hop wasn't all hip-hop either. The pro-black movment was a sub-genre of hip-hop.


>Before this movie, I saw many of our people (mostly, young)
>creating lyrically positive music for us as a
>people/community/nation. After this movie, we had seemingly a
>black out on positive lyrics in Hip Hop.

That had nothing to do with the movie, brother. Again, checkt the history books. The consciousness movement in hip-hop was dying out and was on its death-bed around 1992. Malcolm X the movie was the cherry on top. And The Chronic was blowing up huge in 1992 and taking off. Hardcore rap became mainstream with the success of Dr. Dre, Snoop Dogg, and Ice Cube. They blew up. Conciousness was already dying before the Malcolm X movie. Hardcore rap and party music took over and consciousness was dead in hip-hop. That had nothing to do with the Malcolm X movie.

> More and more,
>lyrics about drinking, smoking herb, calling Blackwomen
>bitches and hoes, etc. became more and more prevalent. That's
>not to say none of this existed before the movie, because it
>did. But after the movie, the balance between consciousness
>and ignorance appeared to shift more towards the ignorance,
>not the positive, enlightend side of the force.
>

Like I said above. That had nothing to do with movie. Hip-hop was bigger than this movie. And the audience of this movie weren't all hip-hop. Hip-hop was only a subgroup of the movie-going audience who watched Malcolm X. You are reaching here.

>You claim that the movie "planted a seed" I'm just asking
>where did we see this seed manifest anything reflecting
>movement in a positive direction? What can you point to in
>our community as evidence that the movie or the life of MX had
>an effect on their life? I don't see it. I don't think this
>movie planted any real seeds or whatever seeds it planted,
>didn't return a harvest of consciousness.
>
>I believe the movie planted no seeds and had no real effect on
>anything.
>

Should it have? What were you expecting. Like I said, above. When was the last time you saw a movie spark a full-fledge revolution? Like I said before, I know of people who were affected by this movie and are doing things in their respective communties. Now is this on a grand scale? No. But then again, its a movie. I don't expect a movie to spark a revolution. I really don't know of any that has. If that is one of your main gripes with the movie, well I don't know what to tell you. Maybe that explains why you came up empty handed with this movie. What you are looking for, you aren't going to get from a movie.

>>> I'm not saying
>>>that this reality is Spikes fault or is the fault of the
>>>movie, but can you name one activists who claims that this
>>>movie changed their life?
>>>
>>
>>Why does it have to be an activist who claims it changed
>their
>>life? Why did this movie or any movie have to change
>someone's
>>life. I didn't know that was a requirement of Spike. I know
>of
>>several people who were deeply affected by the movie and
>>changed for the better. Some actually joined the NOI. Can
>you
>>imagine that? They aren't necessarily lip-professing
>activists
>>in the national spotlight who pose has a "freedom fighter".
>>They are actually people in the communtiy who go unnoticed.
>>Young people were affected by this and for some it caused
>them
>>to want to learn more about Malcolm X and actually go read
>his
>>autobiography and do more research about the man.
>>
>
>That's real nice, maybe this "seed" that you believe was
>planted is a slow germinating seed and we will see it bear
>fruit over the next 5 - 10 years, maybe. I know many who were
>curious about MX and began researching his life based on much
>of the music that was coming from various Hip Hop artists
>around that time. And honestly, I know more ppl. who were
>curious about MX and picked up the book, based on the build up
>to the movie as opposed to viewing the movie itself.
>

Me too.

>
>>In fact if you think about it, it brought his name back to
>>life. Martin Luther King was taught in grade schools.
>Malcolm
>>X wasn't.
>>
>
>This is very true. I think to an extent the movie hurt us on
>this front, too, because MX has been co-opted by the powers
>that be. They made him out to be a man, who was for
>everybody.
>

Actually he was. If you look at his speeches near end of his life he was talking about this. Look at his speech in Oxford. He makes mention of this. He was looking to work with anybody who was down to fight injustice.

>MALCOLM X BELONGS TO US; he was our hero/leader/example of
>manhood.
>

This is where you are wrong, brother. No he didn't. He belonged to God/Allah who discriminates against nobody. Malcolm was a progressive thinker and he was constantly evolving. Towards the end of his life, he would disagree wholeheartedly with your statement.


>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>Do you know the history of the NOI and its form of
>>>>"sacrifices" back in the day.
>>>
>>>Well, history according to who? There is always two sides
>>to
>>>every story. If you were to ask me if I knew the history
>of
>>>the Native Americans that inhabitted this land first and I
>>>said no, I would get a very different picture painted for
>>me,
>>>depending on who's doing the story telling.
>>>
>>
>>
>>Well, believe what you want to believe brother, but here you
>>go:
>>
>>http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/4222/noi4.html
>>
>>"For a fee of ten dollars, Ford gave Islamic sounding names
>to
>>cult members, Elijah and his family going through a series
>of
>>name changes, finally settling on Muhammad. Among Ford's
>>teachings, was a call for followers to sacrifice whites in
>>order for the person 'to return to his home in Mecca.'
>>Followers were also encouraged to believe in human
>sacrifice,
>>'of himself or his loved ones if Allah requires it.' In
>>November of 1932, Robert Karriem Harris, one of the earliest
>>members of 'the Nation Cult of Islam', was convicted of
>murder
>>in Detroit in the sacrificial slaying of Nation follower,
>>James J. Smith, amidst reports of other slayings. This
>event,
>>referred to in Detroit as the infamous 'Voodoo Murders,' led
>>to the confinement of Elijah Karriem (who at the time used
>the
>>alias, Ghulam Bogans) to a mental ward, and the banisof his
>>teacher, Wallace Dodd Ford to Chicago."
>>
>>
>
>Okay, if you believe that this human sacrifice and killing has
>been systemically sanctioned by and within the NOI, how many
>do you believe MX was apart of?
>

I don't know.

>MX was in the NOI for over 12 years, so do you believe that if
>this was a common practice of the NOI and with MX's rank and
>length of service in the NOI, that if this type of activity
>was occurring, that he wasn't aware of it or maybe even an
>active participant?
>

I said it they had a history of sacrificing. That history was in the beginning of the NOI. By the time Malcolm came on board, I'm assuming the Nation had changed. But then again, I don't know.

But knowing the type of person Malcolm was, I don't think he would stand by it at all.

>>
>>>Do you know they were shooting
>>>>and killing their members around the time they were trying
>>>to
>>>>hunt down Malcolm X? And they killed a lot more after
>>>>Malcolm's death.
>>>>
>>>
>>>Source please. A link, a book, a magazine article,
>>>something.
>>>
>>
>>here is some more info from that same link:
>>http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/4222/noi4.html
>>
>>"In 1964, Aubrey Barnett, a former Boston minister under
>Louis
>>X Farrakhan, quit the group after being fed up with the
>>deceptions. Barnett was soon after viciously assaulted on a
>>Boston street by 13 of Elijah's men. On November 5, 1964,
>>ex-member Kenneth Morton, died from internal injuries
>suffered
>>when he was beaten by four members of 'the Nation.' During
>the
>>same year, Malcolm X, former national spokesman for Elijah
>>Muhammad, renounced Elijah's organization, made Hajj and
>>became a Muslim, and officially changed his name to Al-Hajj
>>Malik Shabazz; openly declaring Elijah Muhammad to be a
>false
>>prophet, thief and fornicator. This led to Elijah printing a
>>series of articles critical of Malik Shabazz in issues of
>>Muhammad Speaks, referring to Malik Shabazz as a
>'hypocrite,'
>>including a call for Malik Shabazz' death written by Louis X
>>Farrakhan.
>>
>>On January 6, 1965, ex-member Benjamin Brown, who left 'the
>>Nation' to establish a masjid, was shot in front of his
>>masjid. This was followed by a series of unsuccessful
>attempts
>>on Malik Shabazz' life by Nation members. On February 21,
>>1965, Malik Shabazz was assassinated by Nation members in
>New
>>York City. This was immediately followed by the brutal
>beating
>>in Boston of Leon 4X Ameer, a former bodyguard for Malik
>>Shabazz. Left in a coma for weeks as a result of the
>beating,
>>Ameer emerged from the hospital in a vegetative state with
>>permanent brain damage. He died shortly thereafter.
>>
>>In 1971, twenty-five Nation members walked out of Temple no.
>2
>>in Chicago, with the complaint that not enough money
>collected
>>from members was reaching poor blacks. This led to the
>murder
>>of two of the dissidents. In 1972, author Hakeem A. Jamal, a
>>friend of Malik Shabazz and like him, an outspoken critic of
>>Elijah Muhammad, was gunned down by Nation members. On
>January
>>18, 1973 in Washington DC, the most gruesome of murders took
>>place when several assassins were dispatched from Elijah
>>Muhammad's Philadelphia branch temple to kill ex-follower
>>Hamaas Abdul Khaalis, who had written dozens of letters to
>>Elijah's temples nationwide, calling Elijah a 'lying
>deceiver
>>who was stealing his followers' money and dooming them to
>>Hell'. The assassins entered Hamaas' home, finding seven
>>members of his family, all women and children. The assassins
>>beat and shot the women and children numerous times,
>>ransacking the house, then drowning two infants in a sink
>and
>>tub. Hamaas' daughter Amina, who survived despite being shot
>>six times in the head at close range, recalled that one of
>the
>>killers asked her, "Why did your father write those
>letters?"
>>His last words to her were, "Don't mess with Elijah." The
>>killers fled, but after a nationwide manhunt, all were
>>eventually captured and convicted.
>>"
>>
>
>Okay, this is my position on this type of information: I
>don't dismiss it outright, but I view it with an extremely
>skeptical eye.

lol. Oh, brother, brother, brother. Believe what you want to believe. You have that right.

>I'm not saying the NOI didn't practice any
>strong-arm type of disciplinary tactics that may've included
>intimidation, force, and violence, but at the same time, when
>I hear or read about some of the claims that some make in
>terms of the use of violence, killings and what not in the
>Nation, I wonder to what extent, it involved elements of
>outside forces to help maintain confusion among members of the
>organizations.
>

I don't wonder at all. You know, its weird. There is a subset of black people, on both sides of the fence, that are so fixated with white folks its absurd. Of these some, there are those who want to be totally in the "white world" and nothing else. And on the other side of these some, there are those who are so-called pro-black, freedom fighters who want nothing of the white world. They focus on what has been done by the white world to black people and nothing else. On the surface, these two type of individuals seem to be polar opposites. But in reality, they are exactly the same person. The white man/power structure has jurisdiction on both of their thought processess. The white man own's their mind. In other words, the white man has a "stain on their brain" that they can't shake off. You can't be independent when you constantly harp on the white man and are in awe of his so-called capabilities. That isn't independence of thinking. Shoot, that isn't independence period.

>The FBI would often use conflicts that existed between street
>gangs and other organizations and the Black Panthers, to spark
>and start
>shoot outs and other types of violent confrontations.
>

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know. I also know n*ggas will harm or kill each other over foolishness. It happens daily.

>So this type of stuff, I don't necessarily disbelieve
>outright, but I do view it skeptically.
>

I hear you.

>>Now in terms of Leon 4X Ameer, he was in the
>movie/documentary
>>"Malcolm X" released in 1972 I believe, it was narrated by
>>James Earl Jones. Its basically a collection of speeches of
>>Malcolm and interviews. Its included as a bonus DVD in the
>>release of Malcolm X the movie. Anyway, Leon was beaten
>>severely by the NOI weeks before Malcolm X's death. Malcolm
>>spoke at the podium and brought brother Leon to the podium.
>>And Malcolm spoke how the NOI beat him, trying to get to
>>Malcolm. Leon also spoke about the incident in the movie.
>>
>>Now Leon is later killed after Malcolm's assasination. And
>>this could be what you are talking about in terms of the
>FBI's
>>involvement here is link you may find interesting (its 4
>>parts, but very interesting):
>>
>>http://www.theconspiracy.us/9408/0029.html
>
>Thanks for the link. Looks some interesting reading. I'll
>have to print this off and save it.

Yeah, be sure to check it out.

>>
>>>
>>>>>It is
>>>>>well known that the organization had more than its fair
>>>>share
>>>>>of zealots who were unhappy with Malcolm,
>>>>
>>>>Elijah Muhammad included.
>>>>
>>>
>>>What is your basis for the above allegation?
>>>
>>
>>Watch "Make it plain" again, brother. Listen to what Wilfred
>>(Malcolm's oldest brother) says about getting word that
>Elijah
>>and the family were unhappy that Malcolm was getting all the
>>press and basically eclipsing Elijah in stature. Or read up
>on
>>how the secretaries of Elijah said that Elijah feared
>Malcolm
>>would leave and betray him. Or watch the "Brother Malcolm"
>dvd
>>documentary. Where Charles 37x said that at a meeting with
>the
>>NOI members in philadelphia with Elijah and Malcolm there.
>>Elijah referred to Malcolm as the brother whom you will have
>>to kill. Charles 37x couldn't even finish the words because
>he
>>was all choked up when he said it. It was too paintful for
>>him. These aren't things I'm pulling from out of my head,
>>brother. This is documented information.
>>
>
>Interesting. The "Make it Plain" documentary, I've seen, but
>I haven't seen the "Brother Malcolm" documentary.

Forgive me brother, its called "Brother Minister". I kept referring to it as "Brother Malcolm", but it is "Brother Minister". I highly recommmend that you see it. Here is the link to "Brother Minister":

http://www.cduniverse.com/productinfo.asp?pid=6921252

>My position
>on Elijah being jealous is this. Malcolm was a student of
>Elijah and Malcolm always let this be known, so any shine
>Malcolm gets, indirectly reflected the greatness of Elijah and
>ultimately provied press and publicity for the NOI. So it
>just seems silly to me for him to be jealous; it makes no
>sense to me.
>

It really doesn't make sense. But the concept of jealousy doesn't make sense either. It really didn't make sense to Malcolm either. He mentions it in his own autiobiography and speeches. His brother Wilfred, who remained in the Nation, after Malcolm left and was killed, said so himself later on in that "Make it Plain" documentary. Elijah and his officials were extremely jealous. Malcolm was the spokesman. The press came to Malcolm. Elijah was a mythical figure. But the people, especially those in Harlem knew Malcolm and had contact with him. And when Malcolm left, the fear was that he would build another movement like he built the NOI from obscurity. In fact, Wallace Muhammad (Elijah's son) said that his father's biggest fear was that Malcolm would make the NOI obsolete with his new movement. And his father would be relieved if Malcolm was killed. He said he can't say whether or not his Father gave the order or wanted Malcolm to be killed, but he did say his father would be relieved if Malcolm were dead. Wallace says this in the "Brother Minister" dvd.

>
>>>
>>>
>>>On a side note: It is common belief/opinion/mode of
>thought
>>>among many that Malcolm was brilliant and Elijah was just
>>some
>>>bumbling idiot, incapable of void real intellect. This is
>>>thinking is evil and just plain wrong. While Malcolm was
>>very
>>>much a self-taught man, much of what he learned and what we
>>>came to love as Malcolm X, was the result of Elijah's work,
>>>teaching/mentoring, leading, and influencing Malcolm.
>>Please
>>>check your Elijah hate barometer; it's off da charts.
>>>
>>
>>Not necessarily true, my brother. Now, if you read
>Malcolm's
>>autobiography, Malcolm started taking correspondence classes
>>in English, etc. to start better himself before he came
>across
>>the Nation from his brothers Philbert and Reginald. Malcom
>was
>>also inspired by a brother named "Bimbi" as well. Again,
>>before he came across the teachings of Elijah Muhammad.
>>
>
>>Now, having said that. The great man you referred to,John H.
>>Clarke, spoke of in the "Brother Malcolm" documentary, how
>>Malcom had a "non-muslim" cabinet. He said Malcolm was
>>"devastatingly effective" because of his avid pursuit of
>>information. He said Malcolm believed and knew that the
>>muslims did not have a lot information and knowledge that
>was
>>out there. He said Malcolm utilized him, John H. Clarke, in
>>terms of information on history. Malcolm had different
>>branches of his non-muslim cabinet from which he learned,
>>sociology, etc. John H. Clarke referred to himself as
>>Malcolm's "history department" of this cabinet.
>>
>>So yes, Elijah Muhammad played some part in Malcolm's
>>development, but the Malcolm also played his part in his
>>development as well as others outside of the Nation of
>Islam.
>>In fact, its one of the main reasons they wanted to get rid
>of
>>Malcolm while he was in the Nation. Malcolm was leaning more
>>and more into nationalistic talk instead of religous talk.
>>Watch the "Make it plain" dvd again, brother. Listen to what
>>Philber (malcolm's brother) breaks down how the differences
>in
>>ideology between Malcolm's nationalistic stance vs. NOI's
>>spiritual/religious stance. NOI, to my understanding, at
>that
>>time wanted nothing to do with the political process and
>>protests of the civil rights movement.
>>
>>
>
>Above I state: "While Malcolm was very much a self-taught
>man..." Malcolm was an intelligent man, with an insatiable
>appetite for knowledge. The man's mind was literally a
>sponge. He learned much from all that was around him, be it
>people, events, occurrences, or things. He never missed an
>opportunity to learn. So I acknowledge that Elijah didn't
>have a monopoloy on Malcolm's knowledge or learning.
>
>I don't discard the fact that MX had various other sources of
>information. Much of Malcolm's learning acquired outside of
>the NOI's teaching, he used to validate and confirm the NOI's
>teaching, and he acknowledged this in his autobiography also.
>This was a wise move on MX's part.
>
>But it seems to me that many are always trying to discount or
>minimize Elijah's contribution to Black ppl in America (and
>throughout the world). One of the main methods of doing this,
>is to minimize his role in Malcolm's development.
>

Not really. Malcolm realistically, made much more significant contribution. Malcolm was light years ahead, mentally than everybody else. Malcolm set the blueprint for the Panthers. Malcolm was picking up where Garvey left off. Malcolm set the blueprint for the connection and those in America today who want to make a connection back with the homeland Africa. He was far ahead of his time. Its not necessarily minimizing his role. Its being realistic. Farrakhan and the NOI want to make it seem Elijah had everything to do with Malcolm. Which they know is truly not the case. Heck, Elijah isn't the sole reason for Farrkahn's development. A lot of it had to do with Malcolm. Plus, Farrakhan's own makeup and Farrakhan's own ability to think on his own instead of being a robot server of Elijah had much to do with his own development and rebuilding a new Nation of Islam.

>
>>>Do some research? Brother, there are so many books,
>>articles,
>>>documentaries, etc. that have been done on Malcolm, Elijah
>>>Muhammad and the NOI that I don't know where to begin to
>>gain
>>>the understanding and perspective that you have formed for
>>>yourself. YOU NEED TO REFERENCE THESE THINGS TO MAKE YOUR
>>>CASE PROPERLY!!!!!
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Captain Joseph X of temple #7 of the NOI admitted to
>>bombing
>>>>the house before his died in the early 90's.
>>>
>>>Source please.
>>>
>>
>>Watch the Brother Malcolm DVD documentary. They report the
>>fact that Joeseph X admitted to bombing the house. They also
>>report how John Ali was an FBI informant. John Ali was a
>>secretary in the NOI. One of the more powerful leaders in
>the
>>NOI. In fact, he met with Talmage Hayer the night before the
>>assasination of Malcolm X.
>>>
>
>This is suspect to me. It's hard for me to believe that Yusef
>Ali, personally, bombed MX's house. He was the Captain of
>Mosque # 7 in New York. Why would he have to get his hands
>dirty like that? Why wouldn't he send a lieutenant or a rank
>and file to do it, if he wanted it done? This claim makes no
>sense.

In the DVD it said Jospeh confessd that he was responsible. But again, why were the NOI threatening the life of Malcolm X? It is mind boggling.

>
>
>>>And in the video
>>>>"Make it Plain" Joesph X tried to avoid the issue when
>they
>>>>asked him about who bombed Malcolm's house. He said he
>>>didn't
>>>>know, but had guilt written all over his face in that
>>>>documentary. But Joseph admitted to bombing the house.
>>>>
>>>
>>>This is a matter of complete subjective interpretation. I
>>saw
>>>this video presentation and I didn't see guilt on Yusef
>>Shah's
>>>(f/k/a Joseph Ali) face; I saw contempt, I saw anger, I saw
>>>quite outrage; but I didn't see jealousy. As a matter of
>>>fact, he had the attitude that said to me, "If I did it,
>I'd
>>>tell ya to ya damn face, 'Yeah, I did it so what about,
>>>motherfucker?'"
>>>
>>
>>^^^This is subjective interpretation as well. Joseph's X
>whoe
>>demeanor changed when asked that question. His body language
>>and everything. He looked suspicsous and guilty to me. We
>>will agree to disagree on that one.
>
>Interpretation is subjective on both ends. Cool: Agree to
>disagree on this on for sure.
>

Respect.

>>
>
>>>>Malcolm's murder was the result of the NOI with assistance
>>>>from those outside forces. He wasn't the first NOI member
>>to
>>>>be f*cked up and gunned down.
>>>
>>>Source please.
>>>
>>
>>Again, brother. Refer to the links I posted above. Also
>check
>>out the book "Prophet of Rage" by Aurthur Magida. It
>documents
>>about some of the killings referred to earlier in my post.
>And
>>it talks about a few more. It also talks about the severe
>>beatings within the Nation amongst its members upon one
>>antoher. They even cited an incident where Louis Farrakhan's
>>brother-in-law was severely beaten in the basement of
>Louis's
>>own temple in Boston by his captain. They told him to stop
>>crying while getting his beating. Crying only disrespects
>>Minister Louis.
>>
>
>As I stated above, I'm certain the NOI has its own tactics for
>disciplining its members, but at the same time I am skeptical
>of sources that I read or hear that make claims of senseless
>violence or force being committed by a Black organizaiton.

Right, because we certainly haven't harmed one another before. Come on brother. You can't be analytical in one sense, and then not be analytical in another sense.

>The source may or may not be authentic and the violence being
>reported may or may not've occurred. If said violent events
>did occurr, were they internal generated actions, or was it an
>action generated by some outside forces (i.e., agents and
>spies) who were posing as members to create confusion and
>anarchy within the organizaition? That's how I view these
>things.
>

Okay, believe what you want to believe, brother. That is your right.

>
>>>>Do some research.
>>>
>>>What and where do you want me to research?
>>>
>>>Malcolm's
>>>>murder was the result of fear,jealousy, and the quest for
>>>>power within the NOI with help from the FBI, CIA, NYPD,
>and
>>>>United States.
>>>
>>>What is the basis of the above statement? Is it merely
>your
>>>opinion, is it your opinion based on some citable fact
>>>evidence, is it a published fact?
>>>
>>>If facts are involed please cite a source.
>>>
>>
>>
>>Again, check out what John H. Clarke says in the "Brother
>>Malcolm" documentary and the "Make it plain" documentary. He
>>talks about how people in the Nation enjoyed their petty
>>positions and how they were crooks. And if Malcolm would
>>become the successor to Elijah he would weed out the crooks
>>within the Nation. So, according to John H. Clarke, "the
>idea
>>was to get rid of him (Malcolm) before the passing of the
>old
>>man (Elijah Muhammad)". They wanted the top job, but Malcolm
>>was in the way. He said they created an atmosphere within
>the
>>Nation of Islam, Farrahkan included, to get rid of Malcolm.
>>
>
>Given the nature and atmosphere of the United States, I am
>bound to acknowledge, that there had to be some thieves in
>the NOI and others who were exploiting their positions within
>the NOI. How can it not be that way in the misdst of the US,
>the expolitative capital of the world? I mean this type
>activity occurrs everywhere else in the US: it occurs in the
>US Corporations, in the US govt., it occurs in so-called
>not-for-profit organizaitons, it occurs throughout the various
>churches within the various nominations among the clergy. So
>why would anyone expect the NOI to be completely immune to
>this element of exploitation and greed.
>

I'm just saying, according to those who there, it was going on. Thats all. No need to make it excuses for it. lol

>But when this level of exploitation is reported from within
>the NOI, it is #1) reported as if its an occurrence in a
>vaccuum (i.e., this (i.e., the NOI) is the only place in the
>U.S. that this was happenin') and #2)it's always at the
>expense of the good that the NOI was doing for Black ppl.
>Unlike all the other organizations that were expoiting,
>stealing, etc., the NOI was building businesses and
>institutions that benefited Black people. That is the main
>difference.
>

Not at all. I'm just saying, according to those who there, it was going on. Thats all. No need to make it excuses for it. lol


>US Corporations don't build to benefit Black ppl.; the US
>govt. does not build for the benefit of Black ppl.; Black
>Clergy doesn't build for the benefit of Black ppl. For the
>most part, Black clergy only builds bigger churches. No
>schools, no grocery stores, no convenience stores, no
>restaurants, no gas stations, just bigger churches. The NOI
>did more than just build more buildings for worship. This
>tends to get lost in the discussion when folks want to talk
>about how there were people within the NOI, supposedly robbing
>the house blind.
>

Not really brother. You got to look at both sides. In these DVD's and articles, etc. they talk about the good the NOI does. John H. Clarke says so,and give Elijah and Malcolm credit of how they gave hope and made those who had given up themselves believe in themselves, again. Sure, the NOI did some good, but they did bad and ugly as well around that time. And it was moving away to what it had intended to be, and that is why Malcolm towards the end of his life wanted nothing to do with it again.

>>Benjamin Karim, a close associate of Malcolm who was in the
>>Nation and left when they were treating Malcolm the way they
>>were talks about this in the "Brother Malcolm" documentary.
>He
>>said the NOI had shifted its whole stance. They were
>>instructed to ridicule and slander Malcolm in public.
>Benjamin
>>said that wasn't what they were taugh initially in Islam. He
>>said they had flipped the script. He said it wasn't right.
>And
>>he said left the NOI, as well as others, because of it.
>>
>
>Look, I don't believe the NOI was completely blameless in this
>whole thing. That is not my argument. There are several
>things that I wish the NOI had not done or at least, handled
>differently. The treatment towards Malcolm is something that
>I do have a problem with, I can't blame anyone else who does
>also.
>
>Sidenote: I thought that the way Khallid was treated by the
>modern day NOI, was similarly, unfair (putting it lightly) and
>it left a very, very bad taste in my mouth.
>

Now see, brother. Khalid? That is a whole other thread in itself. lol. And see, the Khalid situation really raises some more flags about Farrakhan, the NOI, and what Farrakhan is *really* about, IMO.


>
>>Again, I'm not talking off the top of my head. If you study
>>and do research you can form your own conclusions. AND, when
>>you hear it from those who were actually there,well I don't
>>know what else to say brother. Believe what you want to
>>believe.
>>
>
>I have come to my own conclusion. And I am always eager to
>hear from those who were actually there. At the same time,
>their perspective, is not always the be-all and end-all to my
>opinion. I am fully aware that ppl. who were there were
>likely confused about some of the events that were occurring
>around them. And that's not their own individual fault.
>There were people around them, who's (real) job was to create
>confusion and keep it stirring among the members of the
>organization.
>

*biting my tongue* Brother, I'll just leave this one alone. lol To each his own.


>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>The gestation and core root of this problem was
>>>>birthed in the NOI. The outside forces didn't have much
>>work
>>>>to do. It was going to be done with or without them.
>>>
>>>You have got to be kidding. To quote our beloved elder and
>>>now Most Honored Ancestor, John H. Clarke, in his
>>>autobiographical documentary "A Long and Mighty Walk", he
>>>stated, in sum that he believed that Farrakhan's rheteric
>>>contributed to the atmosphere that enabled Malcolm to be
>>>assassinated. He also stated that he believed that
>>Malcolm's
>>>death was bigger than some local, domestic squabble with
>the
>>>NOI.
>>
>>Yes, I know this. I've never denied this. You should really
>>check out the "Brother Malcolm DVD". You would really like
>it,
>>I think. It harps on mostly the FBI, CIA, and NYPD's
>>involvement in getting rid of Malcolm. John H. Clarke is in
>>there as well. It talks about things that you find is a
>>problem with the movie Malcolm X.
>>
>>But again, the core root of the problem existed within the
>>Nation of Islam. And it made the outside forces job a lot
>>easier to get rid of Malcolm with the NOI wanting to kill
>him.
>>
>>
>
>I think we agree here. I think the only difference we may
>have is to what extent the NOI was responsible vs US
>Intelligence forces.
>

I think so.

>
>
>>>It's fine that he inclued the fact that Malcolm was a
>street
>>>guy in the movie, but I just think that he should've given
>>at
>>>least equal time to the Intelligence Community's role in
>>>assassinating Malcolm, not just spying on him or keeping
>>tabs
>>>on him, but moving to eliminate him.
>>>
>>
>>But the movie was about the life of Malcolm X right based on
>a
>>lot of his own account, right? Not the Intelligence
>Community
>>and their actions, right?
>>
>
>I thought the movie was about the Life and TIMES of MX. In
>that, you can include, the manner in which MX assassination
>truthfully went down.
>

Was it not based on his autiobiography? He could not have focused on his own assassination if he was dead.

>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>Instead, Spike leaves the viewer with the impression of
>>>>>this
>>>>>>>being just simply another case of Black on Black
>>>violence.
>>>>
>>>>>>>And MX's murder was much bigger than that.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Yes it was. But it doesn't ingnore the fact that his own
>>>>>>brothers wanted him canceled for no reason but their own
>>>>>>jealousy of his power.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Some may've wanted him dead, I'll give you that; but that
>>>>>doesn't mean that they killed him.
>>>>
>>>>lol. I mean, nobody from the NOI pulled the trigger.
>>>>
>>>Actually, only one out of the 5 that were involved is
>>actually
>>>known to have been in the NOI. The rest were most likely
>>FBI
>>>agents or recruits.
>>>
>>
>>Really, Check out the "Brother Malcolm" documentary. Baba
>Zak
>>Kondo is in there describing the 4 other men Talmage
>>described. He says otherwise in the DVD. According to him,
>>they were all in the Nation of Islam, Mosque 25. Now he did
>>say, that it seemed one of the guys, the oldest guy of the
>>group, appeaered to be taking orders from some higher ups
>>(most likely the intelligence community you are referring
>>to).
>>
>>Also, the documentary talks about John Ali being an
>informant
>>and meeting Talmage Hayer in New York, the night before the
>>assisination.
>>
>
>This "Brother Malcom" documentary sounds like some interesting
>stuff. I'll have to check it out. Maybe Spike should have
>checked it out, before filming the "X" film.
>

Again, brotther, its my fault. The correct title is "Brother Minister". And it was released after Spike's X film. It was released in 1995. It was release in 2005 on DVD.

>
>>>>See,a lot of the NOI were frauds. It was a hustle for a
>lot
>>>>them, Elijah Muhammad included. They had a good thing
>>going.
>>>>Money was coming in. Malcolm, in the name of
>righteousness,
>>>>was disrupting the hustle that existed. Those hustling
>>>crooks
>>>>were able to enjoy those fruits because Malcolm had built
>>>the
>>>>movement through his own personal labor in the name of
>>>Allah.
>>>>Malcolm's movement was built on righteousness. That is why
>>>in
>>>>the movie,in one of its most telling scenes, Malcolm
>throws
>>>it
>>>>back at Baines and says, "I'm telling you God's words not
>>no
>>>>hustle...Brother Baines is a 2-bit hustler and one hand
>>>washes
>>>>the other". The divide was there. See, that wasn't
>>>>entertainment. That was a depiction of the reality that
>>>>existed within the Nation of Islam.
>>>>
>>>
>>>These are strong words and allegations that you are making
>>in
>>>the above diatribe. I mean, you didn't declare that there
>>>were a few who were stealing and thieving; you just made it
>>>sound like the whole NOI was an organization filled with
>>>crooks. What are these allegations based upon? YOU MUST
>>BACK
>>>UP THESE TYPES OF ALLEGATIONS WITH EVIDENCE!!
>>>
>>
>>Again, refer to what cited from John H. Clarke and Benjamin
>>Karim. Are they liars? Those sentiments were there back then
>>and the events occured.
>>
>
>I am more than sure that there was exploitation occurring from
>within the NOI, but to the exent that some like to argue that
>exploitation was rampant is where I have a problem. The NOI
>managed to build for and contribute more to the benefit of
>Black ppl than many other organizations out there that are
>exploiting, stealing and fleecing.
>
>DON'T DENY THE NOI ITS JUST DUE!!!
>

I'm not at all. I'm just not denying their responsibility to wrecklessness either, particularly with the ousting and murder of Malcolm X and others.

>
>>And Spike had the fictional character Baines, represent that
>>sentiment. That isn't entertainment, brother. That is a
>>depiction of reality.
>>
>
>Yeah, agreed, Spike did include a fair share of fiction in the
>movie.
>

And he did include a fair share of truth as well. He did a wonderful job. The movie was based on Malcolm's autobiography, not a biography of biography of Malcolm. It was a masterpiece of a film.


>
>>>Bring some real facts to the table, not empty quotes from
>>that
>>>silly movie.
>>>
>>
>>Stop assuming, brother. "Silly movie"? Ah, I see. lol I
>guess
>>you thought all I did was watch the movie. lol
>>
>
>Just watching the movie may not have been all you did, but
>that's all many did. Bringing up quotes from the movie don't
>impress me.
>
>
>>>
>>>Brother, you are a Malcolm worshipper. Malcolm was a GREAT
>>>man, but he had flaws and played a part in the atmosphere
>>that
>>>led to his own assassination. If you recognize that,
>>nothing
>>>that I say to you on this matter will make sense to you.
>>>
>>
>>I'm not a worshipper. Idolatry and sonship are not great
>>things. I admire Malcolm a great deal and he inspires me.
>>
>>And Malcolm's flaw was his naivety while in the Nation. He
>was
>>so loyal that he was blind to Elijah Muhammad and his ways.
>He
>>probably would have stayed in the Nation had he not been
>>forced out. Others around had said so. He was that devoted
>to
>>Elijah. But being forced out was the best thing for Malcolm
>X
>>and I think he came to realization of what the a lot of the
>>NOI and Elijah had unforunately become: a fraud. And it hurt
>>Malcolm a great deal. It happens to all of us. None of us
>are
>>immuned.
>>
>Elijah a fraud?? How so? This is the thing that irriatates
>and pisses me off at times. Malcolm's a genuis but Elijah a
>nit-wit; Muhammad Ali was brilliant and brave but Elijah was a
>bumbling idiot and a coward; Na'im Akbar is wise but Elijah
>was a fool. All of the businesses and institutions that the
>NOI had established under Elijah's leadership, that served and
>benefitted Black people, were a fraud also, I guess. This
>type of logic, thinking and reasoning, is evil and downright
>wrong!!!
>

Nobody is saying Elijah is an imbecile. Being a fraud is different from being nitwit or a fool. Being a sex maniac is different from being a nitwit or a fool.

>>
>>And to say that Malcolm played a part in the atmosphere that
>>led to his own assassination is a creepy statement, brother.
>I
>>don't know what you mean by that. But Malcolm standing on
>the
>>foundation of righteousness and Allah for his people and
>>exposing the forces of the devil that were destroying his
>>people (including the NOI and United States), is no
>>justificaton or reason for him to be killed for it. NONE.
>>
>
>By Malcolm's bickering and verbally putting the NOI and Elijah
>Muhammad on blast, he literally set up the environment for his
>own assassination.

Whoa!!!! Slow down, bruh.

Slow Down (c) Brand Nubian.


> That was bad enough, but to make it worse,
>MX went on Mike Wallace's news program and was just a doggin'
>Elijah Muhammad. Now to be upset with your Brother is one
>thing, to harbor negative feelings toward your teacher/mentor
>is not good, but it can and does occur from time to time in
>human relations. But to go to the common enemy of yourself
>and your brother/teacher/mentor to put your
>brother/teacher/mentor's personal business out in the street
>is blasphemous and outright wrong.
>

Slow Down (c) Brand Nubian. Malcolm fired back at them when they threatened his life on numerous ocassions. In fact, when he departed the Nation he still had great things to say about Elijah and his program. It was only till Malcolm had enough of their bullsh*t of them trying to destroy him and his family and kill him and his family, that he rightfully defended himself.

>I believe that when MX did this, this is what created much of
>the anger and traitor and hyporcrite talk amongst the rank and
>file in the NOI.
>

No, this was before he even left the Nation. And when he left the Nation he still had good things to say about Elijah and the NOI, and they continued with the name-calling and threats. This is the "atmosphere" that was discussed and Farrakhan says admits he is guilty of in interviews and speeches. This is the atmosphere that John H. Clarke talks about in the "Brother Minister" DVD and other interviews while Malcolm was STILL in the Nation of Islam. They wanted to get rid of him, so he wouldn't take over as leader of the Nation of Islam.

<--- we've got bush!

  

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thegodcam
Member since Oct 22nd 2004
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Sun Jun-11-06 11:21 PM

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84. "if i may add on to this convo"
In response to Reply # 80


  

          

i think the logic that elijah wanted malcom out so that malcolm wouldn't take control of the N.O.I. is highly flawed imo... because if u know and understand n.o.i. theology, the mere fact that u r a member of the nation implies that u recognize elijah as the messenger of allah... therefore, as long as he lived, no one could ever be above him... 2nd point that ppl also overlook all the time is the actual growth of the N.O.I. AFTER malcolm's death... their ranks grew and they kept buildin a multimillion empire... whereas malcolm's creation, the O.A.A.U and his Muslim Mosque Inc were near obsolete... that too me is a testament to the efficiency of the leadership of elijah... that being said, it is obvious that muslims played a significant role in the assasination of malcolm but for us in 2006 2 go back and forth about this when malcolm's widow and farrakahn squashed the beef about 10 years ago, i think it's getting a lil trivial... nevertheless conversation is always good... and yes, spike's movie was good overall...

*******************************************************
i will not let finite disappointment undermine infinite hope
- Cory Booker

Football is a simple game; 22 men chase a ball for 90 minutes, and at the end the Germans always win
- Gary Lineker

  

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Zion3Lion
Member since Dec 23rd 2002
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Sun May-06-07 08:36 PM

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88. "this was probably the best exchange"
In response to Reply # 80


  

          

i've read since i've been on this message board

  

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Nettrice
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90. "indeed...that was quite a discussion"
In response to Reply # 88


  

          

:)

<--- Blame this lady for Nutty.

  

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Frank Longo
Member since Nov 18th 2003
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Wed Jun-07-06 10:25 PM

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62. "WE AGREE ON SOMETHING! :)"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

When A Change Is Gonna Come starts playing...good lord.

During a week-long span last year when I was writing a paper on Spike Lee, I watched Do the Right Thing and Malcolm X in their entirety at LEAST six times a piece.

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Nettrice
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64. "I disagree that we agree"
In response to Reply # 62


  

          

Hee, hee.

I've always been contrary.

<--- Blame this lady for Nutty.

  

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ProgressiveSound
Member since Mar 11th 2003
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Thu Jun-08-06 03:34 PM

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71. "In the movie, Malcolm actually had the right numbers"
In response to Reply # 0


          

I guess Archie was slippin.

  

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Musa
Member since Mar 08th 2006
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Fri Jun-09-06 12:00 AM

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75. "I broke down too and reading the book you see many things"
In response to Reply # 0
Fri Jun-09-06 12:01 AM by Musa

  

          

were left out but that part makes me tear everytime.

<----

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http://aquil.bandcamp.com

  

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kysersozey
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81. "X was just a damn good movie, period"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

  

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TIMP
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Mon Jun-12-06 10:35 AM

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86. "I cant even front........"
In response to Reply # 0


          

the last time I watched it, during the part where "A Change Gonna Come" plays while X is driving to where was killed..........I shed some tears

<----holler at a player when you see him in the streets (c)Stuart Scott

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Nettrice
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89. "now i always tear up when i hear "A Change Gonna Come""
In response to Reply # 86


  

          

thanks spike

i can't believe this post is still alive!

<--- Blame this lady for Nutty.

  

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IslaSoul
Member since Aug 01st 2003
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Mon May-07-07 01:21 PM

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91. "Has anyone actually read "One day when I was lost"?"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          


the play Baldwin wrote based on the autobiography?
Someone said that Spike Lee was supposed to adapt it?
But, even though I love James Baldwin...I don't think "One day when I was lost" was going to make a good X movie,

but I'll rewatch Malcolm X tonight
& read One Day When I was lost the next few days

and give it some more thought

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Bombastic
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101. "I read it years ago during my serious Baldwin phase"
In response to Reply # 91


  

          

closer to the time when the Malcolm movie came out in theaters.

I think the movie is a lot more Haley than Baldwin though, from what I can remember of both.

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Nukkapedia
Member since Apr 16th 2006
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Mon May-07-07 02:27 PM

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93. "just saw this this week for the first time."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

For a biopic, it was excellent (you can't expect a motion picture that has to cover a man's entire life story to be neither completely accurate nor comprehensive). It avoids a lot of the biopic traps and portrays Malcolm X as a unique person and his life story as a unique experience.

That said, Spike Lee's acting always knocks his films down a notch. And that dance sequence I've heard so much flak about WAS a bit overlong.

Spike's second-best film, behind "Do the Right Thing".

  

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Mr Mech
Member since Jul 02nd 2002
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96. "My biggest fear about the film came alive in front of me..."
In response to Reply # 0


          

My boss at my last job told me that he saw the film, it effected him deeply and he immediately went out to get a copy of the book. Even though I was doubly immpressed because he's pr, he couldn't get past page 30; for me, the beginning of the book was the most engrossing part. He made me question whether the film could inspire people to go learn more about Malcolm X; I'm not talking about people who already had an interest in civil rights or black nationalism, I'm talking about people who didn't know there was so much to learn.

Now, I know that one man doesn't represent the millions who saw the film, but like I said, my boss made me question how effective the film is.

Mech

  

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Nettrice
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97. "RE: My biggest fear about the film came alive in front of me..."
In response to Reply # 96


  

          

it went to see it on opening weekend (twice) and it was sold out both times in the hood (in Chicago) but afterwards all i heard was folks criticizing the messages in the film/book, esp. after Malcolm X's conversion to the N.O.I.

my english teacher gave me the haley/x autobiography in the 9th grade and it made me want to read more about the legacy of Black people in the U.S. and, eventually, racism. but that's just me.

<--- Blame this lady for Nutty.

  

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Nettrice
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61747 posts
Tue May-08-07 11:20 PM

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102. "RE: excellent film"
In response to Reply # 98


  

          

>How about CRY FREEDOM?

good one! i love steve biko

>Denzel is the man....in general.

<--- Blame this lady for Nutty.

  

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sweeneykovar
Member since Oct 26th 2004
10122 posts
Tue May-08-07 07:20 AM

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99. "i usually dont like posting in long posts, but movie blows"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

okay i completely exaggerated, its a really good movie, but it falls to the traps of idolizing that alot of biopics do, i think the book is so much more amazing because it really showed him as a man rather than the moses the movie shows him to be

  

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Menphyel7
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36436 posts
Tue May-08-07 07:34 AM

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100. "THe movie was great tho and it gets people to read the book"
In response to Reply # 99


  

          

THE BOOK CHANGED MY LIFE for real.......the movie is amazing so many quotables and just a great piece of cinema from beginning ot end of course it couldn't be 100% accurate I"m glad it got off what it did. I mean the fact a man like Malcolm got the treatment he deserve is amzing.

I mean its still white people out today who think malcom is evil and martin is good. let me tell you my freshman year roomate experince.

I boght a poster with the by all means neccessary quote and a pic of malcom wiht his finger pointed and hung it up on the wall with my white rich kid roomate.......then he had the ignorance to bel ike "well why was Maclom so violent and hated white people I don't see no difference between him and Hilter who wnated all teh jews dead"

I was like this muthafucka did not compare Shabazz to Hilter I was about to smack this muthafucka right then and there. I had to sit there and school him for a hour or so. that was the most time I tlak to him my whole year there lol.

http://twitter.com/Menphyel7


"F you Im better in tune with the Infinite"

  

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sweeneykovar
Member since Oct 26th 2004
10122 posts
Wed May-09-07 05:44 AM

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105. "i think the"
In response to Reply # 100


  

          

people are ignant. white people too, sometimes white people most.

  

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sweeneykovar
Member since Oct 26th 2004
10122 posts
Wed May-09-07 05:42 AM

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104. ""
In response to Reply # 103


  

          

create with EXCELLENCE,

X is great movie, right now off the top of the dome I can´t think of another biopic that´s straight up better than X, but still, there are moments in the movie where I cringe because of the heavy emotional manipulation that goes on. now don´t get me wrong, EVERY movie is emotionally manipulative, it´s the nature of great cinema, to make you feel a certain way, but when you pair that up with the historical aspect of biopics, it becomes an uneasy thing for me.

haha, that´s all i really had to say, maybe im just hating.

  

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Vid Santoro
Member since Oct 04th 2006
1318 posts
Wed May-09-07 06:10 AM

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106. "man, too true"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

everybody who could give, gave.

mj
oprah
cosby

and thats just the start...this man gave to the next generations, used his lifework to make something bigger than him for a good.

  

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andrewX
Member since Sep 13th 2005
4477 posts
Wed May-09-07 07:39 AM

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108. "archive?"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

there's some really good stuff in here.

oh. and could someone reup the clip that jambone posted?
thanks.

peace.



the revolution will not be inboxed.

  

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Nettrice
Charter member
61747 posts
Wed May-09-07 09:49 AM

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109. "RE: archive?"
In response to Reply # 108


  

          

>oh. and could someone reup the clip that jambone posted?
>thanks.

i suggest inboxing jambone

<--- Blame this lady for Nutty.

  

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